4. James Corah

James Corah (LinkedIn, Twitter) is Head of Sustainability at CCLA Investment Management, which exists to "help investors maximise their impact on society by harnessing the power of investment markets."

This is part of a series of interviews about innovation for sustainability conducted for the UCL Institute for Sustainable Resources, as a contribution to a module in this Masters.  You can find out more about these interviews, and the module, here.

Here are the times of each of the questions. 

PERSONAL AND ORGANISATIONAL INTRO

0:45 – Q1. What is your role and organisation? 

ORGANISATIONAL SETTING

3:02 – Q2. What role does your department / function have in the organisation? What is expected from you? How does that connect to the organisation’s strategy?

6:18 – Q3. How is ‘sustainability’ framed in your organisation? (For instance: are there specific key words or phrases? Is it only environmental?)

INNOVATION STORY

08:09 – Q4. Can you tell us the story of a good example of your work on innovation for sustainability?

INNOVATION MANAGEMENT

20:05 – Q5. What are the key methods and practices you use for innovation for sustainability?

21:59 – Q6. What are the biggest challenges you face, and how do you overcome them?

28:16 – Q7. If there was one thing policymakers could do which would make your work significantly easier, what would that be?

THE FUTURE

28:40 – Q8. What are your organisation’s priorities on innovation going forward and why?

This is part of a series of interviews about innovation for sustainability conducted for the UCL Institute for Sustainable Resources, as a contribution to a module in this Masters. You can find out more about these interviews, and the module, here.

Transcript

Tue, 2/1 9:16AM • 29:59

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

sustainability, companies, people, organisation, charities, innovation, point, journey, invest, asset manager, investment, change, guess, deliver, passive, world, talking, money, drive, unpack

SPEAKERS

David Bent-Hazelwood

David Bent-Hazelwood  00:14

Hello. This is one of several interviews on innovation, business and sustainability for the students studying for the MSc in sustainable resources at UCL. My name is David bent. I'm an honorary lecturer at UCL Institute for Sustainable resources, and CO lead for the module on eco innovation and sustainable entrepreneurship. Most of the course gives people the latest economic theory and insight, these 30 minute interviews are with practitioners to give some of the grit under the fingernails of innovating for sustainability today, and so very glad to be joined by James. 

QUESTION 1. what's your role in your organisation?

James Corah 00:50 

Yeah, so I'm James Corah, I head up sustainability at CCLA Investment Management. And CCLA is a mid sized asset manager based in London, that works at the moment exclusively with local authorities, charities, Faith organisations, and helps manage their money, we manage about 15 billion pounds of assets under management.

David Bent-Hazelwood  01:11

And that just tip for people who are unfamiliar with the world of finance, you've got 15 billion pounds of assets under management, are those your managing those for the pensioners to be who work and used to work at those companies? 

James Corah 01:24

what's the now are we managed money for charities and the treasuries of local authorities so many charities have blessed with and downs, which I've been set up over time, to be invested to generate an income to fund their activity. And many charities just have a small pot of money that allows them to invest a little bit again to generate the income. 

So our job we don't work with pensions, our job is to take the operational money of charities to invest it to grow the income to allow them to continue to do their good work. And because of our approach, that means that we manage money for organisations from 250 million pounds commonly recognised international charities, all the way through to your probably your local village hall or your church will probably have a church CCLA account with maybe one to three pounds in it. So we we see every type of organisation across the country.

David Bent-Hazelwood  02:18

And that money would otherwise be sitting in a bank earning a tiny interest rate, but exactly that you can invest both for the income which then they use to fund their charitable activities, and also for the effect that those investments have on the world.

James Corah 02:32

Quiet and oh, yeah, exactly that. So we might see it as kind of a double good model of that the money that we're managing allows charities to do more of their work directly. But we also think that by investing in commonly known companies, not by doing kind of concessionary impact investment, just by doing solid, good investment management, with really good engagement, we can be a force for change in the world. So take the values of the organisations that we manage money for, into the boardrooms of companies, tell them how the world isn't get changed to happen.

David Bent-Hazelwood  03:02

QUESTION 2. So what is the role of your department? What does it do in the organisation overall?

James Corah 03:07

So my, my, my organisation has three roles. And we've done a lot of work recently trying to simplify this. And we have basically fall down into kind of three words, basically, the first being Act, the second being assess, and the third being align. 

Now, act for us is all about how can we be an activist? How can we drive change? How can we look at the companies that we invest in? What are the pressing, identify what the pressing sustainability issues that they face are? And then take them on a journey with us to try and drive change so that his issues from climate change to one slavery, kind of mental health to something really routine, like data privacy? What matters to you? And how can we get that change to change to happen?

The second one being assess and helping our investment analysts who are great at this stuff, but need a little bit of help sometimes to think about how the sustainability issues affect companies, not necessarily today. But in the future, as we know that regulation legislation, and people's consumer preferences are going to change as we go through the sustainable sustainability challenges that we face. How do you factor that in to how you understand the company and how it's going to perform in the future. 

And the final part of what we do is align, and again, that uniqueness about CCLA. That fact that we're managing money for nonprofit organisations, for charities for for churches means that there's a really important part of work for us, which is how do we align a portfolio with the values of the people who actually owed the money? And what does that mean involved to which companies do not invest in but also what that means in terms of how do you talk to Congress to get changed to happen? So we're responsible for at assess and align.

David Bent-Hazelwood  04:43

And it's probably worth mentioning at this point that one of the organisations whose endowments you manage is UCL itself. So the university has a pot of money that you in charge of part of it and how it gets invested.

James Corah 04:54

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're not going to go through that and detail so don't don't expect everyone But yeah, we like to get to go a bit more colour on our client groups. Of course, it involves universities, it's one of churches. It involves basically most charities or organisations that you can imagine. So it's we see a lot of things across across the whole of the country.

David Bent-Hazelwood  05:17

And one last question is, what is the legal form of CCLA? itself? Is it a company? Is it a charity?

James Corah 05:25

now we can spend half an hour David talking about this. So CCLA is a remarkably complicated organisation from a legal perspective, just just to put some colour on that. Our own we are a company and our ownership structure is such that the majority of the company is owned by some of the different funds that we manage, with the rest owned by our executives and their long term incentive scheme. And the legal ploys for employees scheme. So we're not a mutual because it's not one pound one vote. But we are principally owned by the clients that we manage money for, which of course, when it comes back to that sustainability journey is really important to us, because it grounds us in the sense of our owners don't just want great financial returns, they want us to be a force for good in the world in the same way that they are.

David Bent-Hazelwood  06:10

Cool, thank you. And then we've used the word, the S word, the sustainability word a lot already in just our first five minutes or so, 

QUESTION 3. what does [sustainability] mean for CCLA? What does they are their particular phrases, or their particular priorities that give colour to that very broad term?

James Corah 06:28

Look, I think, particularly when it comes to finance, there are so many words that can be used to describe what we've done. And there's been a sort of history of, of, of this from ethical, which is all about values alignment to responsible to ESG, environmental, social, and governance factors, which focuses much more on financial issues. So there's so many ways the investment management industry has come to look at this broad concept of sustainability. 

So for us, I guess encapsulates that framework, I talked about access align. But fundamentally, I guess, because of our history, because of our heritage, and because of our history, because our ability to do this sustainability, for us is actually about change. It's not about just buying the most sustainable companies today. It's not about kind of by building a portfolio full of wind farms, for instance, it's about buying a generic portfolio that you'd recognise the brand names around the world, some of them who really wouldn't be seen as sustainable companies, but using our expertise to be in and drive change with them and drive improvements. So for me, sustainability in in our sense, is a journey rather than a destination. And we want to help companies accelerate that. Right.

David Bent-Hazelwood  07:35

And it covers the whole waterfront of environmental, social and economic.

James Corah 07:39

Yeah, exactly. So we would look at a company across so many different sustainability issues mixed about 26 in different ways, which, you know, goes right down to, to some really granular points. But I guess, first, the starting point is that investment markets will only ever be as healthy as the environment and people that support them. And so we have to, in our sustainability journey, make sure that the environment is sustainable, make sure that it is helpful, or healthy. Sorry, yeah.

David Bent-Hazelwood  08:08

So let's go on to our next question, then, 

QUESTION 4. which is about an innovation story itself. So can you tell us a story of a good example of your work that was about innovation for a sustainable world?

James Corah 08:19

Yeah, and I guess so. So it comes back to that idea of, of engaging rather than just focusing in on products and, and one of the talking about mainstream companies. 

So one of the companies that we invest in GSK, GlaxoSmithKline years ago, this is quite an old example now. But if you go back to, to kind of the first part of the last decade, with a lot of work about the living wage, which at the time hadn't got the momentum that it has now. 

And we wanted to get some of the biggest companies in the UK, who didn't have huge amounts of low paid staff, but still had some to sign up to get that momentum behind the behind the lies company science, the legendary so we talked to the pharmaceutical industry, and one company GSK, we're, at that point, not a living wage accredited company, despite being one of the largest companies in the country. And we engage with them, and we engage with them. 

And we spoke to their then Chief Executive, to the point where actually we took them from a journey of not understanding the living wage and not really seeing it as something that would work for them through to getting a letter from the chief executive explaining the company was going to become an accredited living wage provider, and 600 odd dollars paid staff would be getting a pay rise because of that. So it's not innovation in terms of a product or excitement. But it is innovation in terms of how do you have a common dialogue with a company that takes them on a sustainability journey? And right now we're looking at how can we harness that expertise in new areas like modern slavery and mental health? And again, we're seeing that that innovation of how conversations happen, leading to real world changes in people's lives. And that matters to us more than more than most things.

David Bent-Hazelwood  09:54

And so just to unpack a few things there for our listeners. One is that They may or may not know that the investment, the fund managers will meet with companies on a regular basis, and to ask what's going on, and also to put pressure on the company to do particular things. And that comes into this term of engagement. That's the endgame. Right. 

And part of the story here is there was a pre existing standard, the the living wage standard, and that you using those engagement meetings and all of those touch points to push GSK and others to sign up to that standard, and therefore to improve the lives of the lowest paid workers that they had. So there's, there's like prior innovation there to do with coming up with that standard. And then the way what you were doing was moving. Who that who was adopting that standard, bringing it to a new place a new a new industry?

James Corah 10:49

Yeah. Correct, and then putting it back. So in terms of our business, , we're a competitor. We have competitors, like any other industry, though, people don't have to invest through CCNA, although we're very good at what we do, obviously, people don't have to invest with us, they can go somewhere else. And so part of the innovation of the company is that we want to be judged on the impact that those engagement meetings are having, we see that as a real differentiator for us. And therefore, that allows us to grow our business to be able to do more of this work. So the innovation of how do we drive change, helps in our marketing message, helps get us bigger, helps give me more resources to be able to do more of this stuff. And there's a real kind of upward multiplier, both commercially and, and hopefully sustainably.

David Bent-Hazelwood  11:34

And, I mean, historically, people have believed that investing with a for change, for purpose for sustainability lens, you have to be prepared to forego some return for that that's been historically what people's assumptions have been. Is that true? Now? Is there is there a way in which taking pushing for a living wage or pushing for action on climate change? Does that reduce the returns that your funds deliver?

James Corah 12:03

Well, I think you had to unpack that a little bit that there are two points there. And the first is you're quite right, there's this market perception that if you want to put your values into how you manage money, if you care about sustainability, and you care about building a more healthy future, you have to forego something. 

And I guess our experiences investing in the way that we invest is that that isn't true. To some extent, you know, yes, though, we different market conditions, and different times with different types of companies will do well, but on the whole, we've performed in the top half, if not the top quarter of all the asset managers who are likers, over the past 10 years, and delivered some fantastic returns. So we would say that our our approach shows that you don't have to, if you're sensible, I have a pragmatic approach forego returns in that way. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Probably I would say that not being committed to driving change, not recognising the kind of a sustainable future will impact upon company performance is impacting your ability to deliver returns in the future. So I would almost say that, you know, if you're not doing the sustainability approach, you're potentially putting yourself at risk in the future. 

The second point that I'd come back to is this concept of, of what a sustainable investment approach is. And our approach is about let's avoid the worst companies the most unsustainable ones, because they're the ones that are going to be impacted the most by regulation and legislation. But just buying great just buying the best companies doesn't deliver change anyway. So our portfolio is all about how can we buy normal companies and take them on a change journey, which does mean that we have a slightly different kind of approach to some other companies that position themselves very strongly in sustainability space.

David Bent-Hazelwood  13:44

So and the other thing, which has been big in the investment world over the last decade has been the rise of indices, which are passive, and they will pick out an index, and they'll put a proportion into the companies in that index, and sort of leave it alone. And that whatever happens happens, on the knowledge that, on average, the market does better than someone trying to play the market, that that's been the history of the last 100 years. So and of course, the other thing about that passive approaches, it's very cheap, you don't you don't need to have all of these meetings with all these companies, you need much less attention. How well do you do against that passive approach? And also, to some extent, are they relying on you to do the hard work of the engagement? And to in that sense, they're free riding off of your efforts?

James Corah 14:31

Yeah, it's again, really interesting, but particularly going back to that commercial innovation point, because you're quite right that passive investing tends to be quite cheap and I must say I'm definitely not offering any kind of investment advice here in any way shape, or form. And if I were probably terrible, but I definitely get fired for doing it. So this isn't

David Bent-Hazelwood  14:51

to take any investment advice from this.

James Corah 14:53

Yeah, no do do make your own minds from passive versus active etc. 

But yes, passive investing is cheap and has merits which were an active investor, we think one of the most interesting things coming out of this kind of wider sustainability debate at the moment is it has helped passive active investors really justify a little bit more the cost that they have, because you're quite right that actually we're doing a huge amount of work of understanding the sustainability of companies and going out and engaging with them and driving change. 

And I should say, what we've seen, which is really important is some of the big passive houses, the legal in generals, to a lesser extent, the black rocks and the State Streets begin this journey of algebra, definitely not at the beginning, that they're much further down. But they've really began to embrace this engagement point, which is great as well. 

So that's wherever your passive or active doesn't really matter, you know, you can do sustainability either way. 

But I do think you get a much better conversation, a much richer, richer, richer dialogue if the company management that you're talking to knows that if you don't like their answers, every time you can sell. That gives us that gives us a lever that passive houses don't have, I guess the other thing you mentioned there, which was sets have started going back to that point of the ability to innovate in this area to drive change is again, one of the commercial Levers as to why people want still choose active asset management. So again, it's at the core of our business strategy

. The other point you talked about there was put the money in a passive passive vehicle and leave it, I guess there's a danger as well, in active space, that active investment managers only pick, say, 90 or 100 companies, but there's still 9000 out there that you're not investing in active investment managers and get really focused in on How's this one company doing and not think about the bigger picture? So I guess we need those passive houses to think what systemically important because it's going to impact every single company that I in the world, as well as the active managers saying, I'm going to talk to this one company about this one issue. So there's a lot to there's a lot to unpack in that passive inactive point. Yeah,

David Bent-Hazelwood  16:52

yes. And something which will go on into the future as well. And then the other thing I just wanted to unpack, from what you said, already, you've been really clear that CCL a has this mission. And that mission is also embedded in your brand and why your customers come to you. And what what I think you've been saying, and what I've asked you to unpack for us a bit more as how that then keeps on propelling you to find the next thing. So because of that mission, and because it's expected of your clients, you have to keep on innovating and finding the next issue. And the next way of making a difference on that issue.

James Corah 17:31

Yeah, and let's, you know, let's be clear as well, people come to us because we deliver a good performance. And if we don't give a good performance, a lot of people will just walk out the door and the way they would any other investment manager. So we don't I guess one of the things that people come to first to say you're doing, like your point about cost of you're doing sustainability, therefore you can't do this. It has to be good solid investment management first, as well as sustainability. And we can't use sustainability as an excuse as to why we can't do can't do our day jobs. 

But you're quite right. You know, what we've seen in the investment industry recently, is this huge growth in if I weren't more cynical, I call greenwashing. But because I'm a positive, really enthusiastic kind of guy, I'd say a huge drive and interest in sustainability, which is a great thing. 

We as a kind of one of those original proponents who started on this journey 60 odd years ago, have to keep reinventing what it is that we're doing. And that means for us, I think we use this phrase, a lot of we want to be a catalyst for change in the asset management industry. And we want to make visible the issues that people aren't given the attention that they deserve. So that means there's always that sense of horizon scanning of okay, so people are doing this now, what is it these do in the future? And how can we make that happen. 

And so an example would be back in 2012, my colleague who is brilliant, called Helen Wildsmith, creates an initiative called aiming for a, which is all about climate change engagement with the UK, oil and gas and mining companies, which went on to become embedded within this global initiative called Climate Action. 100 plus, that's now supported by 70 trillion of us trillions, $2 trillion of money. So this massive thing where everyone's doing it. It's our job now. So if everyone's doing that, obviously, you will still want to work on climate change, but what is it that they're not doing? And for us, that means right now, people aren't really working on social issues, particularly modern slavery, which is a huge, huge endemic problem within our global economy of people being bonded into work, we need to shine the visibility on that and get companies to improve their journey. 

Then also, you know, in many ways, cluster as orders people, people aren't people have looked at health and safety from a physical effects for the investment markets. No one's really looked properly at mental health, and how are people turning up to work and and how can we better help people have healthy and balanced lifestyle? So we think again, it's sort of our role to to show the visibility of those issues and get people to work on the things that haven't been picked up on. And again, from a business perspective, that means that we always have differentiated market conversation with our client base. And they love the fact that we're always trying to break new ground.

David Bent-Hazelwood  20:05

Yeah. So let's move on into methods that you use to innovate. In a way we've heard one already, which is your, your share market position of greater investing, greater driving change is something which is part of how you manage your innovation. 

QUESTION 5. Are there any other methods or practices you use, to to stay on to drive the change the novelty that you have in your products, services and other processes?

James Corah 20:33

Yeah. And I think we I think this is a really great question. And I've reflected on it a fair bit over, I've worked out seaso for nearly 12 years. And I think that just our shared nature and positioning of an organisation that's predominantly owned by by organisations that want to change the world, and serves organisation that wants to change the world makes us unique. And how do we do this? Because, you know, the initial answer that I'll come up to you is so obvious, which is just listen, how do we stay ahead, as we listen to our clients? 

Because if you want to know what the next big issue is, the chances are some charity somewhere, whether it's the Women's Institute, or someone else are working on it. So just go to our clients periodically and say, what is really you know, what is really bothering you right now? Where do you think the government needs to change regulation, and that helps us identify issues before they're picked up by other asset managers. So for instance, again, a fair bit of time ago, now, NHS Trust clients or our wider health client base, was telling us really about the issues relating to obesity with children and fizzy drinks and those kinds of things which went on to a few years later, the sugar tax coming in. So just that client base and our ability to put our ear to the ground and say, talk to us, helps us identify that next thing a little bit more than I think that I think others do.

David Bent-Hazelwood  21:52

Yeah. Great. So on to my next question, which is about the challenges. 

QUESTION 6. So what are the biggest challenges you face? And how do you overcome them?

22:02

I guess, again, resources are always going to be a challenge, because to actually get a company to change the way that it works. We're meeting with management isn't? I tell them imagine for a minute, David, that you're the CEO of some big footsie 100 company, that's, that's not paying the living wage yet. 

It's going to take more than me turning up and knocking on your door to say you'd become a living wage accredited employee, you're not going to say, hey, change your right, exactly, it's going to be part of a long term dialogue. So you've got to build that trust of a company, you've got to explain to them why doing that is the right thing for them to do. And then you've got to actually help them through that journey. 

So you're getting a change to happen, is a really resource intensive thing. I'm blessed. Yeah, we have a team of seven, eight people working on sustainability, which for an asset manager, our size is quite incredible. So we have the opportunity to do that. But if our city is it my job in one of our competitors houses, I would be saying that justifying that resource would be would be a challenge. I guess the other thing as well, more broadly, is because we have a slightly different approach to what sustainability is, is explaining that to the marketplace a little tighter, some off sometimes which want a more conventional approach, and explaining why we think our theory of change and our methodology is the right one to do. 

And then the final point, which I think is probably where we all fall down, is that me, my team and I are all really focused and really passionate about driving the changes that we're working on, to the extent that we sometimes forget to actually go out and talk about what it is that we've done. So how do we recognise that actually, that communications angle, that commercial that need to drive the business is really important in terms of sustainability, as well as just the sheer day job of going out and making change happen? So how do we how do we make sure that we're supporting them supporting the business as well as, as doing the passion projects, I guess, sometimes can be a bit of a challenge.

David Bent-Hazelwood  23:55

Yeah. And what I hear in CCLA is as well, is that there's a virtuous circle where your brand is positioned, your market positioning is about great returns and creating change. The more you create that change, the more you reinforce that story. And the more you can tell that story, the more you attract the customers which help you to have more leverage more in the marketplace.

James Corah 24:19

Exactly. That's right. So our brand strapline is good investment, which of course can be in great financial returns, or can be all the good work that my team, my team do. But you're right that when you start moving sustainability, yeah. When you move change to being one of the things that you offer your clients as being your differentiators. If you get good at driving change, then you get more clients and you get more resources to drive even more change. So you're a virtuous circle upwards.

David Bent-Hazelwood  24:42

So then there's another part of this, which you touched on earlier about, there's been a big growth in ESG. From players who don't have that brand positioning, don't have your history and don't necessarily have the same kind of deep expertise over decades that CCLA has. 

And there's been quite a lot of noise recently about ESG as sort of greenwashing, there was a huge piece from one of the former Blackrock marketing people made its way into the ft. He looks like he's about to write a book as well about how of all that is. So there's, there's this thing about the size of an attention is getting larger, the number of people who are saying they're doing stuff is getting larger. But the way attesting how good their work is, is perhaps not strong enough to support the claims they're having. What? And I imagine that's a challenge for you as well, because you have to keep on making that difference. What is there that can be done around ESG reporting and making sure that standards don't get diluted as the domain gets bigger?

James Corah 25:48

Yeah, I this, this is a huge issue. Because, you know, changes change is a collaborative process. So even if you join one meeting, you're able to claim you're part of that change journey. 

So how do you want to market change when everyone's when you need to get everyone to be involved to deliver it? And how does that help differentiate your brand is a really tricky one, I guess. 

Yeah. If you asked me this question a year, two years ago, I think I'd have answered it in a very different way. 

But right now, I've kind of got myself to the point where greenwashing isn't great in any way, shape, or form, but let's take the positives. And the positive is that everyone's talking about sustainability and finance. And we would have bitten off people's hands to be able to get to that position 6, 7, 8 years ago, the fact that it's the first thing that people care about, is a really positive thing. 

And you know, obviously, people are going to start positioning themselves to try and try and benefit from that, who may not have such a compelling history of delivering sustainability. But let's not knock it let's encourage them on that journey and hope that the words become become action at some point soon. And I think they'll have to do that. Coming off that I often call it for as a business I sort of divine chocolate moment of people used to buy divine chocolate, because it was fair trade. And then Cadbury's etc, started offering Fairtrade chocolate, and that differentiator wasn't there anymore. 

And you start judging them, and actually, how good is the chocolate rather than, you know, what is their social accreditation, and I think that's, that's going to happen in finance now of people aren't just going to buy a CCNA product, because we're, because we're good. And we say we're good. They're going to start tacking and how actually good we are delivering the claims that that we have to finally your point about reporting, and then we're going to go on to this, I guess, regulation is hugely important because it allows people to make those value judgments as to who really means it, and who doesn't mean it. 

And I guess whilst being positive, I do fear that the finance industry itself often has not had the best reputation on following through on the claims that it's making. And if we make all these claims about sustainability, and yet climate change continues to be anticipated to be three, four degrees, that inequality continues to grow, etc, etc, etc, we're not able to prove the the change journey that we've instigated, there's a real threat to the licence to operate for our industry. So let's let's be optimistic that people are, are talking about the right things now. But let's be realistic, that if we don't deliver upon it, then we'll then we'll, we're all to blame. And we're all at risk.

David Bent-Hazelwood  28:12

QUESTION 7. And so then the one thing you want from policymakers?

James Corah 28:16

I want so many things and policymakers.

David Bent-Hazelwood  28:19

seconds. Good question. So

James Corah 28:23

we're talking about many things right now, I, I guess I don't want regulation that's too prescriptive. I want regulation that allows innovation and sustainability to drive change. But I want a way that actually gets people to be able to differentiate between who means it and who doesn't mean. And that's a really hard thing to do. But good luck to the FCA. They've got some good people.

David Bent-Hazelwood  28:41

And then finally, the future, 

QUESTION 8 what are your priorities on innovation going forward?

James Corah 28:47

I think if we can continue to identify one thing every three years that needs more attention, and get the investment management industry to focus on it, then that would be really, really good. So for right now, my focus is on how can we continue this dialogue on one slavery and get more investors involved? And in talking to companies about how they can change lives? And then how can we build out this work on mental health? And let's not get too ambitious, we can't save the world on our own. But what's the one thing that we can do and deliver upon it, identify what the one thing is that we can do and then deliver on it?

David Bent-Hazelwood  29:19

And of course, if, if other organisations are also spotting one thing, and growing that then you can fill in quite a lot of the gaps. Not there's not one organisation needs to do everything. So James, it's been wonderful. Thank you very much for all sharing all of your insights and being so clear and also passionate about the difference that CCLA can make, and giving us an insight into what's going on in the finance world. This has been an interview for the Eco innovation and sustainable entrepreneurship module.