9. Shama Skinner

Shama Skinner is an executive, entrepreneur, advisory Board Member and Edmund Hillary Fellow (LinkedIn). She was an early team member of Thinx Inc, the company with sustainable solutions to menstruation and incontinence. Shama had spells as Chief Product Officer, Chief Operating Officer and interim CEO.

Our conversation covers:
-Being a start-up with new innovations in a category (menstruation and incontinence) that had seen no new products for decades.
-Growing a new product which was part of the circular economy.
-Shifting who was involved in the innovation process, especially female engineers and faster connection with customers.
-Innovating how a category was marketed.
-Shifting a market, from stuck with predominantly single-use products to one where reusable products are so fast-growing that competitors have to respond.
-The tension between 'Improve the current' vs 'Explore the next' (that framing taken from a book I mention called The Modern Firm by John Roberts).
-For a start-up, competitive advantage comes from innovating faster than incumbents.
-Addressing 'Period Poverty' and the need for Universal Basic Services.

This is part of a series of interviews about innovation for sustainability conducted for the UCL Institute for Sustainable Resources, as a contribution to a module in this Masters. You can find out more about these interviews, and the module, here.

Transcript

David Bent-Hazelwood: 0:00

Oh hello everyone. This is one of several interviews on innovation, business and sustainability, primarily for the students studying for the MSc in sustainable resources at UCL. My name is David bent, and I'm an honorary lecturer at the UCL Institute for Sustainable resources, and CO lead for the module on eco innovation and sustainable enterprise. Most of the course gives people the latest academic theory and insights. And these 30 minute interviews with practitioners are here to give some of the grit under the fingernails innovating for sustainability. And today, I'm very pleased to say we're joined by Shama Skinner, she is an entrepreneur and executive with over a decade of experience in the consumer goods industry across multiple brands and business models. Most recently, she served as the Chief Operating Officer of think's a digitally native brand selling period and incontinence products. Hello, Sharma.

Shama Skinner: 0:57

Hello, David. Thanks for having me today. QUESTION 1. My pleasure. So let's start with that role in our organisation tell us more about what being Chief Operating Officer of things, what was things? And what did it mean to be the CEO? Absolutely. So a bit of background on the company thinks envisions a healthier world through sustainable menstrual and incontinence solutions. So the company develops and sells washable reusable period and incontinence underwear, it's underwear that looks and feels like regular underwear, and that you can wear in place of or in concert with traditional disposable products such as tampons, or pads. Now, this was a category that is a category really that's highly stigmatised. And it's seen no innovation since the 1930s, which is when the menstrual cup had been invented. So clearly, there was a, you know, a huge opportunity for us to disrupt this sort of sleepy industry and to critically to do it from a woman's perspective. So that's a little bit about the company and my roles specifically was that of Chief Operating Officer, it was a little more than your traditional CEO remit. So in addition to functions like supply chain and compliance, I oversaw product innovation, business planning, Omni channel expansion, and even social impact at one point, and all these departments were integral to the organisation strategy. And just for people listening, who may not know the term omni channel, what does that mean? Yeah. So that means multiple channels through which you sell the product, an example of one channel would be direct to consumer ecommerce. And then an example of another channel would be through retail brick and mortar stores.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 2:44

Cool. And you mentioned how it was particularly from a woman's perspective, was that a feature of of the company,

Shama Skinner: 2:53

it ended up very much being that because it was the the nature of the types of people that wanted to work with us. Just given the subject matter, and the fact that the it was so taboo, women were very drawn to working with us. And so all of our design, our development, our brand marketing, and so on, was done from a woman's perspective.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 3:25

And by women for women's perspective, which I'm guessing there's not many companies in the world, which actually have that setup and bias in their in their group. QUESTION 2. So then the second question, I mean, you just described how the CFO role you have many different departments and functions under your remit, but particularly thinking about the innovation side, what what was the role of that function in the organisation? What was it tasked with doing?

Shama Skinner: 3:51

Yeah, so the innovation function was tasked primarily with developing brand new products. So developing brand new products or breakthrough innovations, as well as iterating on existing innovations to improve the products. So the innovation department really had a very strong focus on new product development, patenting, and breakthrough technology.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 4:20

And with things, what did it was there somebody who had like, a technological breakthrough, which meant they went Yes, excellent. This can be used in this way. Or was it somebody looking around going? I think this is really important. Why is nothing happened on this for 70 years? What was the spark that led to the organisation like that first innovative moment?

Shama Skinner: 4:41

Yeah. So it was the latter. It was essentially the the founders coming together and saying, you know, how is it that no one has really innovated in this space since the 1930s. And yet we all experience all women experienced this issue, and I Um, and have to deal with it on a monthly basis and have to deal with all the inconveniences of of the, you know, the existing system, right, which is, you know, the inconvenience of having to have a tampon in your in your bag or a pad in your bag and having to rush to the bathroom. And oh, you know, you leak onto your sheet. So you leak onto your, you know, your your school outfit when you're when you're going to football or whatever that is. And they just said, you know, it's unbelievable that there hasn't been a breakthrough to to improve. You know, the life of people with periods. Yeah.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 5:42

And I think it's just a point to draw out there. It's easy to think that all innovation starts with an engineer and a white coat, or something. But often, at least with entrepreneurs, it's an itch that can't be scratched that they experienced they want and they find a way to want to do something about it. And from that they induce innovation that is needed. QUESTION 3. So then, how was sustainability framed within thinks? Was it something which was explicit? How is it playing out?

Shama Skinner: 6:10

Yeah, so I found that in most organisations, including at things, sustainability usually refers to environmental sustainability only. But from my perspective, I view sustainability as a way of operating. So prior to things, I founded a consulting company called circle of impact. And we operated on the premise that society is a subset of the environment. And anything you do in one domain directly affects the other. So I've used sustainable enterprise as one that has the best interests of all stakeholders, including the planet, in mind at all times. And as much as possible at equal incidences, meaning they are of equal importance. That's not always easy. And there have been many, many times that things that we've had to you know, we've had to make compromises. You know, what's right for one stakeholder maybe viewed is not right for another. But ultimately, we, you know, you have to be able to prioritise based on your values. Yeah. And when it comes to the core product he ever thinks it strikes me there's two really big sustainability contributions really, one is the avoidance of waste, that there's these competing against a throwaway product. And the other is to do them. Gender Equality, really, of breaking it. Trying to reduce I think people call it the period premium. That's the extra cost, the extra effort that only part of the population has to go through. Is that Is that a fair depiction? Absolutely. And it's a it's a good point, you may come in the way that we have, obviously, viewed sustainability was was very much from this sort of environmental lens. But we also had, you know, what we called Social Impact, which was all of the advocacy work, which I sold you as sustainability, right? All the advocacy work that you just mentioned, around promoting healthy policy to ensure that women and girls have easy access to period products, and also have free access to period period products in the same way that you would have tissue paper in, you know, a toilet stall, right?

David Bent-Hazelwood: 8:23

Yeah. Cool. Okay, so let's now think about some stories. QUETSTION 4. Can you tell us some stories of some good example of the work the innovations that you were part of the things?

Shama Skinner: 8:34

Sure, so I'm gonna share two stories. One is going to be an example of innovation in a more traditional sense, that is, you know, the product and the concept itself. And then the other is a marketing innovation. So with things, the product and concept itself was innovation for sustainability, this category was and still is dominated by single use disposables, as we've just been discussing. In fact, 20 billion tampons and pads end up in landfills and oceans each year in the US alone. And on top of that, there'd be no innovation in this space for decades. So this is something that affects half the world's population, and yet it had been starved of innovation. And on top of that many of the innovations had been solutions that caused harm to the planet. So what propelled the company to start this work and research, you know, in the category were these facts. And in order to push the boundaries of innovation in the space, we brought on industry experts, so others that had been researching and prototyping in the space, and frankly, they they were the only actors that were even able to understand the promise of this innovative product, right? Because there was so much stigma associated with the topic that nobody else wanted to touch it into most just a disgusting idea that no one would ever adopt. And you know, when we initially marketed this to, you know, even just sharing the concept with even women, right? Women's initial reaction was one of disgust. Yeah. So So that brings me to my second story of innovation. But I'll pause before I go to my second story of innovation, see if you have any questions from first, just on their first one, the product innovation. So it was firstly spotting and spotting that a category had been at a standstill, and and it's probably worth giving folk category here it means what's the right way of explaining it, like an area of fast moving consumer goods. So something like a hole in a big supermarket, we're going to add an aisle which is devoted to a category like feminine care, or I don't know what, those kinds of things. So that category have been very stuck. And so the product innovation here was to have a piece of underwear, which could take and be used once someone's having a period and then be washed and then be reused again. That's right. And what can you do? Do you happen to know or remember, were there some technological innovations? Was it about new materials were needed? Or was it that there were existing materials? That it was just questioning bringing them together in a way that hadn't been done before? Yeah, so it was? It's a very good question. The initial innovation was around basically, the latter, the latter, which is there were existing materials out there, but no one had ever brought them together in the way that we did, or few had other had brought them together in the way that we did. And over time, we sort of used that as our sort of base technology platform. And our innovation team would then iterate on that base technology platform to develop, for example, higher absorbency products, you know, for heavier flows. Great, and, and as we touched on top that was mainly a female team, or doing all of that product innovation, and they're bringing the technology together, the new materials, or the bring the materials together, and which they hadn't been known before. So let's move on to your second story, which is the marketing innovation. So what happened there?

David Bent-Hazelwood: 12:30

Okay, so when we first launched, we struggled to get advertisers to promote our product because of the stigma associated with periods. And I'll never forget this time, when we wanted to run ads in the New York City subway, and, you know, the sample copy that we had submitted to the organisation that that essentially owns the and sells the inventory was, thinks underwear for women with periods. That's the only thing that we submitted. And we were on the phone with the agency and ask them why they rejected the copy. They came back and they said, you know, we can't, they said, We cannot accept this copy as is or something like that. And I said, Well, what's wrong with the copy? And they said to us, Well, imagine if a nine year old boys saw that in the subway and asked his mother about it. And meanwhile, they're perfectly happy to run ads about breast augmentation and body slimming and erectile dysfunction. You know, one 800 divorce, all of these things in the subway are absolutely fine. And all by the way, nine year old girls get their periods. So naturally, you can imagine this predominantly, you know, female team were less than amused and decided to take the story to the media and to our community. And that action ended up generating over 400 presets for us within a 24 hour period, it went viral. So even people who had never ridden the New York subway knew about the ads. So ultimately, the MTA ended up doing us a service and they really put our brand on the map with that initial rejection. Since then, we've actually seen some other brands employ a similar tactic of you know, Norm busting to enter the market. So that was my second story, but I wanted to actually fast forward a little bit and just kind of like break ring the whole thing together. If I were to fast forward now eight years. You actually now have the likes of Victoria's Secret Hans airy and numerous other you know, underwear brands, not only underwear brands, you but underwear brands, CPG brands, you know, white label, retail brands. CPG. Sorry, sorry. and consumer packaged goods. Yeah.

Shama Skinner: 15:03

So you've got all these different brands, who previously had been doing nothing but now, right, and not only had been doing nothing, but if you take, you know, you know, traditional specialty retail, which is actually the world I came from prior to things. I mean, they would have considered this type of product. Absolutely, as you know, really disgusting the antithesis of, quote unquote sexy. Yeah. So they weren't going to go anywhere near it. And it's, it's so interesting now to see that they have all entered the period underwear market, because, you know, it's now it's now being adopted in a bit more mainstream way. So in terms of impact, that is actually what I'm most proud of, you know, it is the catalysing the mass adoption of this product, which in turn means a significant reduction of single use plastic disposable products from landfills and oceans. That's great, because I think it shows how a challenger brand can actually shift the basis of a sector and industry. And the more that these products grow, the more that you move from an industry, which is primarily single use to an industry, which is, I guess, you call it circular, or at least very least multiple use, and therefore reducing the impact. And I think one of the things we use in our course, is a sort of typology of innovation, which expands the OECD typology. And so we talked about innovation, one form of innovation, being product innovation, changing your product, which we talked about, right up top about actually inventing a new product. Another type is marketing, innovation, changing the context in which the product is or services being sold. And you just told a story about that, about the subway, and the way in which being a challenger brand, the fact that they refused you and you could turn that into a piece of marketing by itself was actually the success or helped you to be more successful, you could be sort of male metaphor, but David against Goliath, the little it's, it's always good to be to be the little guy who built can be on the side of. And then another kind of innovation, which has just been talking about there, as we call it, ecosystem innovation, change it or maybe industrial setting, actually, changing what the industry gets up to what, what it competes on, and what it tries to do. And then finally, the largest level of innovation we talk about is political economy, how the economy functions and what is being done in the wider society. And that's where some of the advocacy and the taboo busting comes in as you're changing, to some extent, where the power lies, what what is taboo, what can be talked about, and how easy it is for women to live their life, all of those things are cascading from from things. Absolutely, yeah, that's exactly right. So it was, you know, innovation on on multiple levels, you can really come back to that sort of the concept itself being, you know, at the forefront of innovation. So now, think he those are the different stories.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 18:31

QUESTION 5. Now thinking about innovation management. Were there any key methods or practices that you used in things? Yes, so during my tenure at things, I oversaw the innovation department. And we prioritised performance first, and then sustainability. So obviously, the product has to function, it has to be kind of, you know, it cannot have leaks. First, and then, you know, you know, we want to do that in a sustainable way. So we brought in a phenomenal innovation consultant who helped us build our innovation processes and roadmap. And, you know, as a direct to consumer brand, we have this incredible advantage of having a direct relationship with our end users. So we were able to use that. And we cherish this relationship for lots of reasons, not the least of which was, you know, the incredible insights that they provided to us as we sought to innovate and better build, you know, perform, you know, better performing more sustainable products. So I'll give you an example. You know, when we were looking to test two different types of platform technologies, we went to our, our kind of top our top customers across the board, right? We would send a kind of an an email out and say, you know, we're doing this survey with We're looking for customers who can engage and support us with feedback, and we would send them prototypes. And the the most incredible thing is one, you're getting it directly from your customer. And two, you're able to get it really fast. So the quality of the data is better. And the speed at which we acquire the data is is faster. So that has was sort of instrumental in our in our ability to innovate quickly. And then on top of that, we relied on, you know, comprehensive third party testing and certification. And that was to determine the level of sustainability. So that's looking more on the supply chain side. As you probably know, David, through your work, apparel, supply chains are notoriously opaque. And it is difficult, though not impossible to know exactly what's going on in your complex, multi tiered supply chain. Yeah, so having accredited third parties audit and verify our claims was important to us and helped us stay true to our sustainability agenda.

Shama Skinner: 21:11

Cool. And things were saying for our audience that you have the suppliers, and then you have the supplier to the suppliers, and then the suppliers, the suppliers and the suppliers and off off it goes back. And often in fashion. A final item will have been in many different countries and potentially touched by many different hands, and many different circumstances under many different legal jurisdictions. So it can be very difficult to know whether even if it's in the contract you have with your primary supplier, that people will be treated well and so on, it's useful to know that they're enforcing that up the chain to all of the different routes, by which certain things come to be branded as things eventually. Great.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 21:54

QUESTION 6. And then just thinking about the biggest challenges you faced and how you overcame them, what were the challenges? And what were you able to do about them?

Shama Skinner: 22:02

Yeah, so I think I touched on a few of them that at first, you know, the biggest challenge was really breaking through an established category with a novel narrative that sought to de stigmatise. Think about the way that periods and period products. So competing disposable products were marketed for generations prior, it was very much marketed in this sort of taboo way where you were supposed to be, you're supposed to conceal it. And you know, they always use blue liquid and not red liquid, you know, when they were showing the efficacy of the product. And it was always about this sort of, you know, a girl dancing around in a white dress, you feel the daisies type of thing, right? So changing that narrative was the first big challenge. Now, when we talked about that, a little bit of sort of, you know, how we approach that and how we decided to do that we went in with a much bolder, much more real narrative and imagery around what it means to have a period. And over time, as we scaled the product, and you know, became more acceptable, we started to struggle have different challenges. And it was, you know, often challenges around capital deployment. So one of the difficult things about being a startup is that you're often cash strapped, and you have to make tough choices about where and when you spend your money. And there are times when we've had to hold off investment in innovation, actually, which is the long term debt, right? Because our short term immediate needs were to fund marketing, so we pay salaries. So the tough thing with innovation and leading a department like that, is that because the returns are much longer term. You know, when you're constantly capital constrained, you're sometimes forced to under invest in your future. Yeah, in the fund, you're present. And that's a constant challenge for capital constrained startups. Yep.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 24:17

And some of the literature I think it there's a book called The modern firm, but I can't remember whose BIOS top of my head, he talks about the central dilemma for any, any organisation of any size is about improve versus explore. If you're improving what you already do what you already have. You can be fairly certain about the returns which will be happening in quite short term. But if you explore not only other returns long term, before they manifest, but also it's more uncertain, you're doing something more. You don't not. With less track record, it's more uncertain about whether it'll come to fruition or not. And so, all of the incentives point towards you doing The improve, because you get you get the cash in, you get your bonus, as a manager, you get you, you're able to hit your targets. If you're a corporate, you perhaps have your annual appraisal you hit if you're an entrepreneur, you get enough cash in through the door in revenue that you can pay it on salary that month. But that's, as you say, that risks not doing the exploring, which means that five years down the road, five months down the road, you don't have that next product, you don't have that next way of doing things. And that's why you end up with no innovation in our product category for 7080 years, because all of the existing companies have just been doing improving and not been doing exploring. That's right. Yes. And I mean, I suppose one of the things which forced you to explore was that you were a challenger brand, doing something new and that you in a way you had no choice It was either it was explore or death? Really. That's one of the reasons why. Or at least, that's one of the reasons why significant economic change. CIT tends to require new entrants, because the existing players, their incentives are to keep the risk low and keep on coming, combing off the profits, whereas there's only new entrants who have the significant incentive to do new things. So that kept you going with exploring, I guess, I'm I'm guessing, is that true? Was that your experience?

Shama Skinner: 26:24

So So yes, that was our experience at the beginning. And, and I'm glad you bring up this concept of, you know, improve versus explore with this, this was always a challenge, right? Like how, you know, because of those, because of these capital constraints, do you invest that small amount of money in a more sure thing? Or do you take a much, much bigger risk, and a lot of companies our size, cannot afford to take that risk? Now, we were fortunate in our series, a round of funding, and then subsequently in, you know, subsequent rounds of funding, that we were able to get a strategic investor that was very much committed to the long term. So So having that backing, and that support gave us a little bit more freedom to start, you know, to to explore versus just focus on improvement. The one other thing that I will say that up until that point, it was, you know, we were definitely, you know, doing more of the improving versus versus the exploring. And that is that's the it, we had the luxury because we were the first in the space, we had the luxury of a little bit of time, right? Because, Pete, we were, you know, branded disrupter in the category, people thought it was disgusting. They didn't think it was going to work. And so we had this bit of time where people were like, Okay, well, we're gonna, we're gonna watch and see what happens in this space. And so we had the luxury of a few years where nobody entered the market. You know, very, very few players entered the market. But they weren't the big ones. And they were they might they were, they were small, other small challenges like, like us. Yeah. And it was only after a few years that some of the bigger challenges challenges came into the market. And at that point, we knew for sure that we could no longer do improvements, and that we had to focus a much, much more of our, our time and our capital on exploration and long term innovation.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 28:37

Great. So the change in the competitive context meant, yes, your your your competitive advantage was not trying to compete with those large corporates which have big, deep pockets and existing relationships with for instance, retailers. You can't compete on known territory there. But they, as you demonstrated by the fact you had several years before they joined in, you are more agile, and because of what you've described before you have a closer relationship with many customers and therefore can get faster feedback. So your competitive advantage was in the driving that innovation harder and faster because you had you were able to innovate quicker unexploited faster than they were.

Shama Skinner: 29:19

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Even those improvements, right, these little rounds of improvements, those were super fast for us to get back. Even examples are, you know, a style or colour or something? I mean, you can we could get that feedback. And it literally in one day,

David Bent-Hazelwood: 29:37

yeah. Which corporates would have barely signed it off from their committee in that one day. That's a bureaucrat of corporate like, last few questions. QUESTION 7. If there was one thing policymakers could do that would make your work significantly easier. Would it be?

Shama Skinner: 29:56

So David, have you heard of the term period poverty or menstrual equity?

David Bent-Hazelwood: 30:00

I have for various reasons, but you might need to explain it for our audience because not everyone in the audience.

Shama Skinner: 30:07

So period, poverty refers to the impact on women and girls of not having access to period products to manage monthly cycles. As you can imagine, this lack of access leads to go skipping school and sometimes even dropping out of school, and more often sports actually. So if there's one thing policymakers should focus on, it's on policy to help eradicate period poverty. And that includes something we talked about earlier, right, eliminating what we call the tampon tax, which is a luxury sales tax imposed on sanitary products. So things like Viagra and condoms, for example, are not taxed, but period products are. And this makes period products less accessible to those who need it and exacerbates the period poverty issue. So that's one and that's one example. And then the other example is, again, something I spoke about earlier, which is making period products free and available in public restrooms, including in places like prisons, and schools and things. And I want to share a story here to illustrate the extent of this issue. If we take, for example, prisons, today, in many prisons across the US, women have to buy period products from the prison website. So you can't, you know, you can't even go and visit an inmate and then period products in the garden, you know, obviously, so in many instances, it's not even available to purchase on the prison website. So this issue of access to period products is very much a human rights issue. And we need policymakers to focus Yeah, yeah.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 31:53

I mean, the US prison situation, that sounds like a very high probability of monopoly pricing as well. For those who are trying to buy things from the prison website, right. And I think just to link up with some very big level conversation, or very conversations at the level of the innovating our political economy, here in the UK, there are various people who are advocating for what they call universal basic services, saying there are some things which in order for us to function well as a society, there are some fundamental needs, which should be met, should be guaranteed that everyone could everyone if they need to, you can access them in some basic level. And so housing in the UK, we have education up until you're 18, if you want it, we also have in the UK health system, if you want it that's it's free at the point of views. Amazing, which is amazing and not the case in the US, but as other parts of the world have their other approaches to health. But then you can start adding things like access to the internet as a universal basic service, because it's so fundamental to how we live in our modern world. And what you just been describing there as access to period products at you could imagine that way, to me that speaks to the need for what are the universal basic services, which address which, if they're not addressed otherwise would provide would mean there is structural inequality, in this case of gendered structural inequality that absolutely, so that's, and again, that speaks to an innovation or political economy level, as well as cascading down into other aspects. Wonderful. So then just finally thinking about the future. QUESTION 8. What were the priorities innovating into the future? What was what was? What are your thoughts on that?

Shama Skinner: 33:49

So during my tenure, we viewed product innovation really as the organization's future. And you know, when you first we talked about this a little bit, but you know, when you first launch a breakthrough innovation into the market, you have a little bit of time, because people want to wait to see if the innovation takes off before investing in the space. But once you prove that, that innovation has legs and the market and see that it's being rapidly adopted, you suddenly have very little time. And what keeps you apart is your ability to innovate amongst a sea of competitors entering the market very quickly. So as we saw competitors entering om category and retailing their products, often at much lower prices than ours. We maintained that superior product performance and quality is what would keep us ahead of the competition and help us retain our market share. And so for that reason, innovation became a key strategic pillar for the organisation and we significantly increased investment in this department. You know, eventually hiring a senior leader to head up the department and and build an in house, you know, robust r&d team.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 35:04

Cool, so and speak back to other parts of our conversations earlier about the nature of the universe you needed responding to that competitive threat. And if you're going to be a successful organisation into the future in a competitive environment, then you're going to need to be innovating. So that's wonderful. And I just want to say thank you very much. I have now out of questions. Is there anything else you want to add as anything important about innovation and things which we've not touched on in some way? Or other?

Shama Skinner: 35:33

Um, no, I think we have touched on that. But really appreciate the time and the thoughtful questions, David,

David Bent-Hazelwood: 35:43

my pleasure. And I think it's, it's great to hear the cat the category that you were part of innovating, has this dual aspect, as we touched on that, on the one hand, there's an avoidance of plastic and other kinds of waste, that moving an entire sector over to being much more multi-use much more circular, is a huge achievement is something for which you should feel very proud. And then there is this effect on the taboo subject and how that affects what women feel they can talk about and how they're placed in society and that how that also cascades through. So it's wonderful to be able to bring that into our little series here on innovating for sustainability. So thank you very much to you, charmer, cause Thank you. And thank you to all of you for listening. This was a podcast for the Eco innovation and sustainable entrepreneurship module at UCL. There'll be another one along and thank you very much.