Back for another episode, I am so lucky to be joined again by the wonderful Dave Jereb.
Dave has been busy since we last spoke, and has recently released a book! Challenging the Story is an invaluable resource that is going to change the way you think about behaviour and intervention.
Dave shares about the journey in writing his book and everything else he has got planned for the coming months!
Important links:
Buy Dave's book: https://www.amazon.com.au/Challenging-Story-Surprisingly-Supporting-Behaviours-ebook/dp/B0CLDMV82C
Contact Dave: https://www.moveabout.com.au/contact-us/
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/davejereb_ot/
ABC Iceberg: https://www.txautism.net/evaluations/abc-iceberg
Back for another episode, I am so lucky to be joined again by the wonderful Dave Jereb.
Dave has been busy since we last spoke, and has recently released a book! Challenging the Story is an invaluable resource that is going to change the way you think about behaviour and intervention.
Dave shares about the journey in writing his book and everything else he has got planned for the coming months!
Important links:
Buy Dave's book: https://www.amazon.com.au/Challenging-Story-Surprisingly-Supporting-Behaviours-ebook/dp/B0CLDMV82C
Contact Dave: https://www.moveabout.com.au/contact-us/
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/davejereb_ot/
ABC Iceberg: https://www.txautism.net/evaluations/abc-iceberg
G'day guys and welcome to Holly the OT podcast. My name is Holly and I am an occupational therapist looking to create a judgement free zone for all OT students, new grads and early year therapists. Join me as I give my honest opinions on the highs and the lows and the ins and the outs of being an OT. Before I start today's episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Wujak Nongar people who are the traditional custodians of the land. This episode was recorded G'day guys, and welcome back to another episode of Holly the OT podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and being here for another episode.
Speaker 1:I've been so busy recording lots of great episodes for you with some really incredible guests, and today is absolutely no exception because we have got the wonderful Dave Jero back for his second episode Two episodes and I couldn't think of anyone else to come back for a second time. Dave is sharing all about everything he's been up to lately and if you've listened to the first episode, you can imagine he's been up to a lot, which is always great to hear. We are talking about Dave's book, we're talking about courses that Dave has coming up and his plans for 2024, and I think, as always, you guys are going to love this chat. But before we get into the chat, let's do my highs and lows as we like to do, not knocking around today, getting straight into it. My high for the last week is and I'm recording this one in retrospect because I'm getting on a plane in about three hours, so I'm foreseeing that my high is that I'm going home to New South Wales for about ten nights, which is going to be so much fun.
Speaker 1:We've got a new family member to meet, a little baby, we're going to see a concert. We are just catching up with all of my favourite people. My niece started school, so I'm going to go pick her up from school a couple of afternoons and I'm just excited. It's just going to be wholesome. We were home not that long ago, so I feel like it's weird to be going back so soon, but you know that's okay, it's not the worst thing that could be happening. My other high is that my first product that I am releasing and selling arrived. It got dropped off by the courier two days ago and all will be revealed soon, so I'm not going to talk about that too much more because no one wants someone sugarcoating and dancing around the facts. So just know that that was really exciting and I can't wait to share more with you guys.
Speaker 1:My low for the last week has been oh, there's just another heat wave in Perth and it's just hot, and I am usually not a person that cares about the heat, but the house that we are in only has one very, very small air con. And how lucky I am to have an air con at all and to have a house, and I'm so, so appreciative of that. But, bloody hell, it's been hot, but that's look whatever. I'd rather it be hot than be cold, but if it could just go down like four degrees, like so it's just in the 30s and not the 40s, that would be great, that would be wonderful. It's all I want. Oh, I have another high that I forgot about.
Speaker 1:This week was the first week of the Soul Trader OT peer support group that I started to run, which is a very long sentence to get out, but I put the call out. I don't think I've spoken about it on the pod yet, but I put the call out over on Instagram for other OTs that are Soul Traders and are looking for that sort of community that you don't get when you work for yourself, and I had heaps of interest and it's just incredible to know that there are so many people that are on that journey who are looking for that connection. So we are starting with a monthly support group and we've made a Facebook group together and it's just going to be really, really wonderful and really really excited to sort of build connection with more Soul Trader OTs and just give people that opportunity to ask questions and have that support, which I think is so very, very important. So anyone who is listening to this, who is a Soul Trader and who may have missed my stories, let me know and I'll add you into the communication so you can be all up with it. And yeah, that's all I've got. I think. I'm trying to think. I swear I had something else, but I've forgotten it as I do. Yep, that will do me.
Speaker 1:Let's get into the chat with Dave, an absolute legend, and I hope you enjoy Today's podcast. Guest is a man that probably needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one anyway and I'm just going to try to do him justice. Dave is an occupational therapist. He's the man behind Move About OT, alongside his lovely wife Kathy. He's a mentor, he's a friend to many and more recently he can add author to his already impressive resume. Dave's mantra is to support the people who support the kids, and that is at the forefront of everything that he does as OTs. We are so, so lucky to have Dave leading the way in our community and I'm very lucky to say welcome back to the podcast, dave, I'm so excited to have you here.
Speaker 2:Holly, great to be here. Always have fun chatting to you and you've got such a great community that you're building. It's exciting to have a chat.
Speaker 1:And the community loved your first episode, dave. It is, to this day, the most popular episode I have done. Not sure if I've told you that, but you are the number one on the leaderboard. Not that it's a competition, but there's a title for you to add to your resume.
Speaker 1:Even though I screwed up two treats in a lie, I don't think you screwed it up, you just made it tricky for me. But we have had a podcast interview before, so if anyone wants to learn a little bit more about Dave's journey to where he is now, a little bit of a history behind Move About and how he's ended up in this incredible position that he's in, I will link Dave's first episode into the show notes so you can go and have a listen to that first if you want, or you can just get straight into this one. But today we're going to have a bit of a catch up and learn a little bit about the incredible things that Dave has been very busy doing in the last six or so months since we last spoke, and you don't do things in half, do you, dave? You're a busy, busy man and I don't think you'd have it any other way.
Speaker 2:There are some benefits to ADHD, holly, and some struggles, but I've got a great team around me to be able to make up for the challenges that I have. So, yeah, we've got a lot happening, we've got a wonderful team and, yeah, we really want to support the people who support the kids, so we're trying to do all the things, which is exciting.
Speaker 1:It is very exciting. How's the ease into 2024 being? Did you have a good holiday break? Did you stop much? Did you have much of a relax?
Speaker 2:I didn't stop much. The team did like people did. A lot of people closed down for three weeks or whatever it is and have sort of that force shut down. We always sort of went. I don't think we should make people use up all their leave just at this time if they don't want to, but they can. So we really work hard to fill up January with intensives and groups and different processes so that we don't need to require people to take time off, and so some people just took the week or the week in a bit. A lot of people took two weeks either in either a week, either side, and some took three. I just took the one and then I've taken days here and there as well. I've got a little one about Stark Kindergarten. So there were bits and pieces that I took throughout January to make sure we got some of that quality time. I'm refreshed, I'm excited I don't need to have sleepers for the week, holly, I get excited about all the things we're doing.
Speaker 1:It's a great position to be, isn't it, dave? That's the thing I love most about you is that you're doing so many things, but it doesn't seem to drain you in any sort of negative way. Obviously, I'm sure you experience fatigue and you probably have moments where you're like I'm doing a lot, but you're so excited and so passionate about everything that you're doing, and I think that's one of the best things about you.
Speaker 2:I do sprints and, again, I have a great team around me too, so we really do have a leadership structure and a team that supports each other. So they free up time so that I can work on projects like the book, like the courses that we do and the training we do. But yeah, I do it in sprints. I'll have a whole series of 4AMs that I'm sort of up every morning doing things and passing out at 8.30 and then I'll have to go back to sort of six, seven sleep ins. I know that's not a sleep in for some people.
Speaker 1:You're either an early bird or a night owl.
Speaker 2:You are too right.
Speaker 1:You're an early bird. Yeah, I'm up and out. I like to do things in the morning when I've got my energy, and I crash and burn by about four o'clock, but that's okay.
Speaker 2:I get my work done before anyone else wakes up. It's the most efficient way.
Speaker 1:Isn't it a nice feeling too, knowing I'm working right now and everyone else is still asleep.
Speaker 2:I'm so good about it, and then I just chat for the rest of the day, basically just interrupt other people's work, trying to get better at that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure they're happy to be interrupted by you, Dave. Now we are here to talk about a few things actually, but the main thing that I am so excited to unpack and learn more about is a pretty epic project that you've worked on and has been released in the last month and last month, two months.
Speaker 2:November, yeah, november, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:It is your book, dave. You are an author. You are an author. Your book Challenging the Story a surprisingly simple approach to supporting children with challenging behaviors. We're going to get into it. We're going to unpack the why about it. I've got a few questions about the book for you, but run me through the process For those. Not everyone can say I've written and released a book. What was the process of that like? Did it come naturally to you or was it a journey?
Speaker 2:It was a journey, but it actually mostly happened very quickly. It happened over a year but there was a six month gap in there for a while there. So actually you're over in WA. It started in WA. I've had this in my head for several years. I've had this in my head. We drove from Perth to Ningaloo through the desert of WA. I had no idea of just these red, red, amazing outback. You turn the corner in this crystal blue ocean. It's like the most beautiful place in the world. Of course I can't be trusted. Driving. It just freaks Kathy out too much and she can't be trusted to be a passenger. I was in the passenger seat and it's a long time.
Speaker 2:I got my phone out and I just started writing ideas in my notes. Then, before I knew it, I wrote the first three chapters in the notes on my phone, literally on my phone. I had the first three chapters for this book. All I knew was I knew that I wanted to get out the ABCs. But the way they're meant to be. I think a lot of people mess them up and don't understand them. I wanted the child at the center. I wanted connection and relationship to be at the forefront. I got those out. And then I ended up sending that to my email, put it in a Word doc and it was like 12 pages. If you look at 12 pages, it is a lot to scroll through. I don't know where to go from here, and I put her away for six months and then I did a business training. That was sort of saying you got to get your book out there and your book is a business card that no one ever throws away is sort of a phrase that they use. I'm like maybe I should really look at it again. And that's not why I did it. I did it because I actually feel like we have this unique knowledge. That's not rocket science, but actually in its simplicity. That's where the beauty is, and it is actually really surprising some of the things that we teach in there to people. They go yeah, wow, that's cool and I'm sure we'll talk about some of those examples. But so I got it out again and had a look and I was still overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:And then I made some stories with the kids. We actually use chat GPT to make their stories. I didn't use chat GPT to write my book, but we wrote some Minecraft and some Pokemon stories and we were going away. And so I was like, oh, I remember Word Docs. You can turn them into a booklet format. I'm going to make the kids their own books to read in the back of the car. And I did that for them.
Speaker 2:And then I saw this booklet format and I was like that's what I want my book to look like.
Speaker 2:So I cut and pasted the 12 pages into booklet format and it was now like 20 pages, but I could visualize it and within an hour I'd plugged in most of the chapter headings and then I chipped away at it and I got most of the book done in a month from that point. And then I was like I talked to the publisher and they were like well, if you get it in soon, we can get it done by the end of the year. And I'm like what about by the 24th of November when I have Kimbeth El coming to do trauma-sensitive practice? And they're like, if you hustle, and so they're in the UK and so they'd get me information back at 9 or 10 at night. And I'd be like, if I don't work on this now, it'll be two days later before we do it. So I'd be up till midnight, finish that off. And yeah, having a deadline was really good Because I'm great at the first 80% of projects, not so great at the last 20%.
Speaker 1:But if I have a deadline Final execution yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:If I have a deadline, it works, and so it smashed it out, that's. I don't know if that's interesting to people, but that's the book part.
Speaker 1:I think that's very interesting. It's interesting to know that you started and you came back to it and it wasn't just a all right, there it is, it's done. It was a journey and I think having that time to come back and reflect on what it was that the message you were trying to get across is probably why the message in it is so exceptional, and years in the making too, like it is years in my head.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I feel very fortunate. I was lucky enough to read a copy very early on in the piece, before it was released, and I remember sitting. I was sitting on a train Newcastle to Sydney, we'd just caught up at the UON careers day and I had a read of it and I just thought, wow, how can behavior be so simplified and clear? And I just think this is going to be such a valuable tool for for therapists, for parents, for teachers, for everyone. And I just want to know sort of where did the motivation behind that simplification of behavior come from? Why was that what you wanted to focus on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well and so. So I have always been passionate about meaning, like making things meaningful and how to make it meaningful to the person in front of me, and to find and storytelling. I love storytelling and I love being creative and symbolic. I also and I love OT, so I've always loved the business side and what we do in our work. I also love the business side in terms of how do I run an emotionally intelligent business, how do I run a person-centered business? That is also a good business, so not just a. I'm a nice guy and so I work 40 hours to pay salary, but how do we all win? How do we have a great practice where we do great work? And you have to run a solid business to do that.
Speaker 2:So I read a lot of business content. There is a business book called the One Minute Manager and it's about an hour read and it's set up as a fable, and so this guy sets out to find the world's best manager and he travels the world and can't find him. And then he hears about this guy in a neighboring town called the One Minute Manager and he goes to meet him and he learns about. It's actually a little bit behavioral in this sort of tough sense, but he learns about one minute goal setting, one minute praising and one minute reprimands and the gist of it is like get to the point people, you can trust people, but be clear, don't go on about it and you get some really nice management strategies from a one hour book and I was like all of our stuff is like boring textbooks.
Speaker 2:And people go to these two-day conferences and does anyone learn more in a two-day conference than a one hour webinar? I'm not sure you learned that much more, and everyone wants to learn from Instagram or maybe YouTube, and how do we get it so that it's consumable? And so I decided I'm going to write a story where you learn the lessons through the story. It's called an educational allegory, which nobody knows, so I don't normally say that.
Speaker 2:But you learn the lessons through the story. And then I put a reflection point at the end to say, in case you missed it, here's what you should have learned in that chapter. But it should be an easy read. It should be 70 minutes. You've read the whole book and you've got some nuggets and all I wanted to get across was ABC, antisheat and Behavior Consequence and put the child first. And although when I did the companion guide to go along with it, I realized, oh my gosh, there's like 20 different little mini lessons in there, but there's some core to it. I guess. The other one is it takes a village to raise a child kind of concept is that not only should you not be expected to do it on your own, you shouldn't expect yourself to do it on your own. And we need to support the people who support the kids.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I love that and that was what I enjoyed most about the book is the reflection points. Obviously, the storytelling was great and I feel like everyone who reads it is going to be able to place themselves or place a client or place a colleague, into each of those characters. But it's the reflection points, that sort of sum it all up for you, which is just yet really, really nice. I was wondering. I have my favorite reflection point from the book and I was hoping if I could read it out for you, just unpack it a little bit with sort of the main sort of point that I think this is a really great one for new grads or those that are sort of new to behavior and sort of what our role is as OTs.
Speaker 1:But the reflection point was being proactive is often more effective than being reactive. Whether in the classroom, the clinic or at home, prevention is always better than intervention. Educators, health professionals and parents, caregivers have the power to shape environments and situations in ways that set children up for success but for seeing potential challenges and equipping children with strategies ahead of time, we can create a nurturing environment where they feel supported and understood. It's an encouragement for all stakeholders in a child's life, to think deeply, adapt and be willing to view challenges from a different perspective, and that was my favorite.
Speaker 1:Obviously, there's some great nuggets in this book, but that was my favorite one and I think that's such an important reminder of what we're doing and why it needs to be proactive rather than reactive. And it also goes into a reel that you did recently, dave, sort of implying all of the different triggers for behavior, and you did whiteboard marker darting around all of these different triggers and it's such a visual and it's so incredible. But I think those two hand in hand give a really nice sort of picture into the reactive sorry, the proactive approach that we need to take. For any OTs listening, this is a long-winded question, but for any OTs listening, particularly new grads, what is the sort of main goal for that behavior side of things, that proactive side of things? What should we really be looking for? And what was your point you were trying to get across with that reflection point?
Speaker 2:You have to start with a little bit ahead of that, which is finding the behavior objectively, not subjectively, and so not what I'm feeling about it and the heat of the moment. I guess the whole idea of challenging the story actually the original title for challenging the story was the second story and it made sense to me, but I don't think it made sense to other people but it sort of stem from a Brené Brown concept of the shitty first draft. I hope I can say that. But we have this shitty first draft, so this kid's trying to manipulate or this kid's trying to, this kid's being aggressive or this kid's, and it's really true. And even if it's true, it's not helpful because then you're just trying to deal with something that's there. But if you can strip that back to what the physical thing that's happening and then move to what led up to it, and that's the antecedent. Even more than the antecedent, the antecedent is sort of the what happened just before it, but it's also what's the lead up. What was their breakfast and morning routine like, and were they out of their favorite cereal and did they have their new school uniform, which is a bit scratchy and still has the tag what was that lead up. That led up to it. What was their sleep the night before? What are their previous interactions with the kid they had a challenge with, and all of those sort of things are things that lead up to what happened.
Speaker 2:And the reel that I just did on Instagram was basically the idea of people talking about you've got to find the trigger, and so they talk about moving from the what to the why, and that's great. That's a great first step, not just focusing on the behavior, but why it might have happened. The thing in the reel and that does hopefully come out through the book is there's another part that's one of my favorite is when Mrs who says the problem might be that you're looking for the antecedent instead of the antecedents with an S on the end, so plural, because sometimes there's lots of different reasons behaviors happen. Sometimes there's lots of different reasons the same behavior happens. Sometimes there's that might need different, actual different strategies to support them so that that behavior reduces. And actually spoiler alert sometimes actually the consequence what happens after the behavior can lead to the behavior happening as well.
Speaker 2:And so, again, mrs who to quote from her she says today's consequence is tomorrow's antecedent, and so this happens again and again in a classroom, if a kid is has trouble with reading, as Henry does in the book, and you ask them to read in front of the class and they go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you go right, get out.
Speaker 2:Right, you've set them out and you think you've punished them and you've set a consequence that's going to reduce that behavior, when in fact They've been able to get out of showing that they couldn't read, which was more important. They didn't like to be sent out, they didn't like to be in trouble, because they like you as a teacher and like you as a OT, and they don't want to get into trouble, but they, more importantly, they don't want to show that they can't read. And so today's consequences, tomorrow, is anti-seedent. And, as Mrs who says, you don't, that doesn't just mean you do it, but not let them go out of class and force them to do it. It's you understand that's hard for them, and so they're not learning in that moment anyway. So let's move from the what to the why, and if we can understand the why, then we can put in strategies so that that what's not needed anymore, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I've sort of covered a lot of things there and fumbled. No, I think. No. I think it's perfect and I think the big emphasis that I'm taking there is it's not just an anti-seedent, it's the anti-seedents, and it's so much that can contribute to our, our little friends, regulation and sort of how they're going about their day.
Speaker 1:And once we sort of widen that lens and look at it from that really broad perspective, we're able to sort of see that that triggers, those triggers and that lead up a little bit more. I think that's a really, really great point. As you're writing the book, dave, your, your characters, did you have anyone in your life that was the inspiration for these characters? Because I was reading it and I was like Dave's my miss, my miss. Who Dave? Dave is my miss, he's the guidance, he's, he's the wise one. That's sort of shifting that perspective and challenging that thought process. But I'm wondering, as you're writing, like, where did you draw inspiration from for these characters?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean Mrs, who is really an amalgamation of all the mentors I've had, and I've had a lot of mentors. I've been really lucky to have great, powerful people in my life and probably two, two or three that jump out. Beth Austin was my my first PEDS OT employer and so all my knowledge of relationship and connection and the DIR floor time model, most of that came from her. Colleen Hacker, who's at the sensory gym. She was my third year placement coordinator. She's the one that gave me the phrase this is hard and you can do it. And I teach that to all my team, all my parents, for themselves but for the kids. I love that phrase because we we ever want to say, oh, that's easy and it's not feeling easy to the kids. So we want to validate that it is feeling hard and and they can do it and we're there to support them. So I use that a lot.
Speaker 2:Tracy Stackhouse, who I taught the step as I course with, after doing it so many times that they just asked me to join.
Speaker 2:She's been a mentor to to me and our clinic for many, many years and a dear friend, and she introduced me to the ABC iceberg tool, which you can get at, I think, texas Autism dot com and it's a really great tool which basically has these ABCs and then it has, like an iceberg rising out of the water, to say the behavior is the tip of the iceberg and we got to need to look at the underlying factors. So there's a lot of that model that goes into it. Ella Frick, kim Barthel they both also have aspects that sort of weigh in here that I've learned from them. Their amalgamation misses who, the kids. The kids are real kids. You know, the kids are bits, amalgamations of real kids and the examples of real life, examples that I've come across or my team have come across. We come across again and again and again and lessons that we've learned. So not no one's a specific person, but they are all things we've heard again and again and amalgamations of people.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think that's what makes it so powerful, because you can tell that it's realistic and you can tell that there's snippets of real life in this and and the suggestions and the reflections that you're offering are real life scenarios that can happen and and have been successful. So I think that's what makes it so wonderful. It's that that level of creativity with the storytelling and that really succinct reflection point which I think is so powerful. And I think I know the iceberg you're talking about, but I might get you to send it to me.
Speaker 1:So I have for sure the show links for people to go and have a look at, because it sounds like it's a great visual tool as well that people might really really benefit from. Overall, dave, who is the book targeted at? Who do you think is going to benefit from most by picking it up and having a read? Is it early year therapists? Is it teachers? Who are you wanting to sort of get the most out of this, or is it a mixed bag?
Speaker 2:I mean it is a mix, I would say. Obviously I'm so passionate about OT that I originally was surprised as we'd get new grads through and I'd give the intro to move about spills and I'd run them through my behavior and regulation workshop that Kath and I developed, and I'd always be surprised that people were surprised by some of this stuff they didn't realize, like the behavior example of objectivity If we get a chance later it might be good to chat through that, because that is one that people's jaws drop and I was like people need this info. I think it's simple because I've been lucky to have these mentors, but people haven't heard it this way before and don't understand these things. So OTs are always my first. What I will tell you that was really touching is when I started to share this.
Speaker 2:The feedback I got from health professionals was this is great, People need to get it. I really like it, Really enjoyed it, Got a lot out of it. Teachers, though they started sending emails that were like I was Jenny, Like thank you, that's cool, so cool. I had one that was she was the head of behavior in her school and she said I had a Jenny walk into my office today and I sat her down and read her this passage. It's like that's so cool, so it's shifted to teachers. But it is for everyone and parents. I think it's conveying stuff that I think is complex behavior stuff in an easy to digest way. So, yeah, I think parents support workers, teachers, people that haven't had a lot of this at uni it's a really easy entry point for but also OT's. I think, again, everyone's getting a lot out of it. I think.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think it just shows how incredible it is, how wide your audience is and how many people you are reaching. I know we spoke in our first podcast interview about your business and how you know you change the conclusion that there's only ever going to be so many kids that you can support. So why not support more therapists and more adults and more people that are in the children's lives, so then you can have that ripple effect onto more children? I think that you're doing exactly that. I think it's really, really wonderful.
Speaker 1:I had a question for you, though, just on teachers and those that are reading the book. And obviously we have a lot of new grads that listen to this podcast, and often we have a new grads that are going into schools and they're looking for advice from teachers, and teachers are looking for advice from new grads, and it's this sort of like cohabituating relationship where we're sort of relying on each other, but we're all coming from different backgrounds. And what would you sort of say to a new grad who might be going into a classroom where there is a child who is demonstrating some of these behaviors that we mentioned about in the book? What sort of approach should they take in this situation, should they refer on to this book? Like, obviously that would be a great tool and it has to be done, obviously, in the right way, but is there a way that they can approach these situations, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to tell you that my answer to everything and you know this might be the next book, it had our elements through the book but the answer to everything is connection. I really believe connection. Connection with the child, connection with the parents, connection with the teacher and I know, as a little shit OT, when I was young, for a long time I'd hand these reports, you know. I'd go in for an hour, observe, barely, talk to the teacher, send them a 15 page report of what they had to do on a nightmare. Same thing with parents. You know, like until I was a parent, I was like it's hard to just do the normal stuff, let alone this extra stuff, and so being sensitive to that is one thing, but also just connect, you know the first thing. So when we do, there was a point where then I went I don't feel like this is working.
Speaker 2:When I went into schools, I don't feel like they're, you know, and I had, even though I knew the stuff was really good for this kid I'd hear things like oh, we tried that sensory stuff and it didn't work. Or we tried that and like what's going on here? Like it's not registering for them because I haven't done the work. I haven't done the work to connect with them, to help them to get that buy-in of why it's helpful to them as well as to the kids.
Speaker 2:And so then I had a couple of kids you're not meant to have favorites, but I had a couple favorites and so I was due to do school visits. I went I'm just going to take as much time as I need to see what I need to feel good about this. And so it ended up being an hour and a half of a school observation, with about half an hour of that being with the adults that are in the room. So I did about 10 or 15 minutes chatting to the teacher and saying what's going on here. You know what's what would make your life easier, which is a cool phrase, right? Because as soon as you say what would make your life easier, what do they say?
Speaker 1:If they stopped behaving badly.
Speaker 2:You know what they all say oh look, it's not about me, it's about the kids, it's about Johnny.
Speaker 1:I miss the mark.
Speaker 2:Right and you go. I'm so glad that we both agree with that so we can get that focus on and so but I say, but I do want your life to be easier. I can't make your life harder. You've got all these kids right, and so I want to work with you to see if I have and you're the expert in this classroom. I don't want to. I don't work with 25 kids. I could do it for an hour, but I don't want to do more than that. It's terrifying. But I know this kid well, right, and so you're the expert in the classroom. I know this kid from an OT perspective pretty well.
Speaker 2:Let's have a look at what's happening here and see if we have some things that could make, you know, obviously, his life easier and make it easier for him or her to do these things, and also make it easy enough that you'll feel good about doing this as well. And then I focus in on you know, what are they meant to be doing? Here? It's always what does done look like right. So what are they doing now? What's the task? What are they meant to be doing? What am I meant to be looking at here? And then I can look at that and I can look at that in terms of and I always go back to the step as I model, which I love dearly. And so what's the task? Here's the environment, here's how it's set out. How does the child know what they need to be doing? Do they feel successful? Is it meaningful to them? Is their body set up to be able to do it there, in this place? Is the environment supporting or getting in the way? Can they predict when it's over? Do they know what's coming up? What's happening with self-regulation, and how is interaction supporting or enhancing it? And playfulness I always forget playfulness. That's a second P that came later to the step as I squeeze in other places.
Speaker 2:But I look at all those things, but I have to start with what's meant to be happening here and how can I build a relationship. That's problem solving. Also, one session is not going to do it. It's going to be. Let's talk about that. And then, at the end, here's what I saw. I'm wondering if these things would be supported.
Speaker 2:I see that wriggle cushion over up to the back. Is that an option? Or I see that ball over there. Or I see this happening. And why am we using that now? And what's happened and that was challenging. I wonder if we tried it this way, would it work? Let's see if I can get some buy-in before I've left and put it in a report and then I often will cover the ABCs. I often will cover what I saw related to what's meant to be happening, give some suggestions and then I always bring it down to it one to three summary points. If there's nothing more, you do start here and then let's keep talking. It has to be ongoing. Problem solving and relationship. Relationship is not dealing with teachers cannot be a one-night stand. It's a longer-term relationship to be able to support that kid.
Speaker 1:That might be my new favorite, Dave Gerrubb's quote.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I think I push the line of what's okay.
Speaker 1:That's the extract we're leading. I'm joking, I won't do that.
Speaker 2:That's going straight to the Instagram wheel.
Speaker 1:I just think it's so important connection like building that relationship first. It's like anything that we do you don't go to Gunho too soon and try not to over complicate it as well. I think they're the two main points there that I will take from that.
Speaker 2:Think about them too, really think about is it possible problem solve with them? You want them to come to you when something's not working so you can problem solve, rather than say that just didn't work. You need relationship with that. You need to back them, to support, to get even support throughout the wider school community, I think, to help that child it's tricky. It's tricky to help kids within, particularly a mainstream classroom when there's so many different people. It's tough.
Speaker 1:I hope that it keeps trickling on this thought process that you're putting through. I hope more teachers, more ROTs, more those who want to extend their knowledge a little bit more, pick up your book, because it is so very insightful. And for those who aren't book readers perhaps they're book listeners, Dave what do you have in store for them? Yeah so the audio book holly, what a great segue.
Speaker 2:The audio book is due to come out the 21st of February, so I wish it came out in a month that I could pronounce I always have trouble with that month, but on 21st it's due to come out, which is super exciting. I recorded it myself, so it's not. It won't sound like James Earl Jones or some hollish narrator and, believe it, it's actually really hard to read this. This is like I've created the hardest book in the world to read because it is fiction that sits in the nonfiction section. So people aren't reading it for a good read that helps them learn, but they're reading it to learn. But it's a story and it has characters. So people are like, are you going to do the voices? And you sort of know, I'm not going to imitate what a Mrs who voice was going to be my next question.
Speaker 1:Give me your Mrs who.
Speaker 2:I don't want to get canceled, but and I don't want to be, I don't want to be disrespectful and I don't want to. But, however, I did sort of do voices in terms of I did a little bit of YouTube and a little bit of learning and, and you know, to do a female voice. I go slightly up, not in a feminine voice, but slightly up, just to identify a different character. And I had these hand gestures. You won't see this, obviously, in the pod, but I sort of went up and out. So I sort of at my heart for the narrator myself. I was up and out to the left for Jenny and I was sort of up and to the right for Mrs who. I just had these visualizations of where I took my voice for those characters, just to differentiate them. So it's easy to listen to when they're having a dialogue. You can tell one from the other. I probably lose it quite a few times throughout, but everyone said they want to hear it in the voice of the narrator. So you get what you ask.
Speaker 1:And it's one of those things you know. You've never done that before. How do you know what to do? How do you know which way to take it? It's just another way you've challenged yourself. It's very impressive.
Speaker 2:Happy to get feedback. Fun story though when I recorded, I recorded a school place called the Grove, which is on the Central Coast, and it was set up by Gary Beers Beers from in excess and it's on this acreage, Beautiful, beautiful place, and they've had Silverchair, Delta and Birds of Tokyo a whole bunch of different bands that have recorded there. And I arrived and I'm like a couple of guys were out the front and I wind my window down. I'm like do you know where we can park? And they're like oh, we're leaving in a sec, you can just park here, We'll tell Jackie here. I was like, oh yeah, cool, and they drive off and then I park. And then later on I found it was Birds of Tokyo that were giving me directions of where to park and missed opportunity to. Well, I guess I sort of met them.
Speaker 1:Did that give you that sort of extra breath to be like, oh, this is actually really cool what I'm doing?
Speaker 2:Oh, and shit.
Speaker 1:It took you the other way. It was cool, it is cool so what you're telling me is next month you'll be releasing a rock album.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. So I managed to smash out the book in one day. I mean it's a two hour listen, it's about a one and a quarter hour read. I asked the guy who was helping me, Jack, how long does it take them to record an album or song? I haven't taken a quarter song and he said a band like Birds of Tokyo will take three to five days to record one song.
Speaker 1:That is amazing. That is so correct. Just makes you wonder how like, why, what, what like? What are they looking for? What are they needing to do? Again, it's very interesting.
Speaker 2:They'll play the same verse 30 times until they get it right.
Speaker 1:No wonder they can remember so many songs, and they're performing.
Speaker 2:I always find that impressive. How are they?
Speaker 1:all, how are they consistently remembering lyrics and notes and what they're playing? But because they've done it for five days straight on the continuous scheme, very impressive, that is cool.
Speaker 2:My, yeah, mine was. Done is better than perfect. If I try for perfect, you'd never get an audio book, so done is better than perfect.
Speaker 1:Dave, speaking of audio, when we spoke last time, to compare to now, I think if we sort of played them back, they'd be an enhancement in your audio quality. I'm wondering if you could tell me, or tell the listeners, why your audio quality might have enhanced.
Speaker 2:Well, Holly, my audio quality is enhanced because I've got this sexy microphone.
Speaker 1:What do you?
Speaker 2:have to do with a sexy microphone.
Speaker 1:Oh, a pod mic. And what would you be needing? A pod mic for Dave.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 1:All the cool kids.
Speaker 2:I heard all the cool kids have a podcast. So that's the plan. The plan is I've got the book and I want a podcast to go with it Also, of course, as well, and so I'm hoping those two things will come. No, I've got to stop saying I'm hoping those two things are coming out this year, and I'm going to get you to hold me accountable that Bye.
Speaker 1:Give us a date. Dave, Give us a date.
Speaker 2:I want to say June 30th, but I'm going to say April 30th. There will be a challenging the story of behavior podcast or something similar. I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1:Incredible, absolutely incredible, and I could not think of a better person for a podcast. I think you're so relatable and easy to listen to. I think it's going to be wonderful. What's your objective? What are you hoping for with your podcast? Who's the audience? What are you wanting to achieve?
Speaker 2:Yeah, audience is always OT for me, I love my.
Speaker 2:OT, but I do think it's everyone that this book is for. I want to just riff a bit further into some of these ideas, particularly around behavior. And also, you know I'm very passionate about sensory processing and regulation. I think people have a simplistic version of it that I can add a lot more depth to it in a way that is relatable, I think. You know, in a way that I think my sister started many years ago Absolutely, and then I've been lucky to start from there and I think I might even take it to a bit further depth and flexibility where we we need the boxes to start with to get kids in, but then we realize they they won't fit in the boxes. They sort of squeeze out here and squeeze there and they're blurring and a blending in and so helping people blend the boxes of regulation and behavior and and fine the individual, individual differences, how to support those unique kids. I think I have some pretty good skills in getting that information across.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I think you do. I think it's going to be very exciting and now that it's out in the podcast world you've said it on my podcast it's in the universe, the listeners will hear and we will all hold you accountable and make it happen.
Speaker 2:I find it's my first and it hasn't come out. You can all send me DMs.
Speaker 1:I've cancelled. No, not at all, Not at all. And as if a book and a podcast isn't enough for you to already be doing. What else is happening in the move about? Well, Dave, what else are you working on? Any exciting things in the works? Is there any courses coming up? What's what's happening?
Speaker 2:Yep, so there'll definitely be a course that goes along with this as well. I have Kath and I had a course we called a dynamic approach to regulation behavior not super exciting title, but it covered a lot. I think that's 70% of the way to what a course for 2024 might look like. That gets updated to fit the book. Last year it was great that we had Julia Wilbarga and Kim Bathel out. We had some things planned. One of those has fallen through, so we're just looking at who we might bring out. There definitely will be webinar content, so we want to bring back our move about unplugged, which is the, a free series where we've had people. We've had Tracy Stackhouse, kim Bathel, sheila Frick a range of different people that we just offer for free to the community because we get access to these guys but we want to share them with the world. Transforming trauma series last year in the lead up to Kim was really amazing, so that was for sessions that we offered free of charge, again with some great Australian speakers, and so I'm hoping to get two or three of those onto YouTube. To one we can't, but the others I'll try and get on there so that people can access that, but we'll bring that back again. I think we had 400 people registered for that series, which was cool, so we're going to offer that again. Oh, there's something that we were planning to do with the Kim Bathel last year and we included it, but then some scheduling things pushed it out. So we're going to do that.
Speaker 2:That's a three hour Saturday morning session on connection. That really is just for the New South Wales people, because the focus is on actual connection. So it'll be only hosted from our clinics, so from our Bella Vista in Sydney, our Central Coast Berkeley Val clinic and our Warners Bay, newcastle Lake Macquarie clinic. On a Saturday morning. We're going to follow it with a lunch. We really want that connection and actually getting people together, not just sort of passively watching a webinar with the. I'm going to be honest when I watch a webinar, if I turn my camera off, I am emailing, texting like I. I just have to hold myself accountable by having the video on, and I'm sure people aren't as bad as me, but I'm sure they're not like giving it their whole attention too. So I and I heard a statistic only 5% of online courses get finished. Now, that includes a lot of sort of cheap, junkie ones, but man isn't that amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, I'm like get together, connect with humans, be present, be there and and let's connect as well.
Speaker 1:So that's coming out, lots of things coming out, like lots of all the things we try to do all the things, all the things, and if people want to see more information or learn a bit more about what you're doing, is the move about website the best place to move aboutcomau forward slash courses.
Speaker 2:Oh, the other thing that's the big one that's launching next week so it's already closed for this quarter and it will reopen again in future quarters is the Allied Health Sanctuary. So that is a community membership that I've launched with Sonja Bestelich, who is an amazing speech therapist. She is the most heart driven therapist I've met she can I give her a pod that's out there plugged to?
Speaker 1:absolutely please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think she has a new one coming out, but the one that's out there is called chat about children and it's great she's. She's interviewed the head of Lego about play, which was really cool. I make an appearance from years back before I was. That was my first pod and sensory processing, but yeah, she's really amazing.
Speaker 2:So we get, we're going to get together for the Allied Health Sanctuary where our members, every every month, we focus on a theme and we we have a 30 minute hour half hour of a masterclass.
Speaker 2:We have a one hour Q and a session.
Speaker 2:We have a one hour small group expansion of the masterclass and then we have a self directed, self reflective activity that you can do quite quickly for the fourth week and the idea is that sort of every month you'll get two and a half hours credit towards your your app registration, but also you'll have those touch points that there are people that you can ask questions with.
Speaker 2:You can feel part of a community because, let's face it, there are people, even in big organizations, that are people that are isolated, because they're working out the back of their car, they're in houses and they meet people, but they're not feeling connected, and then there's people that are the only OT in a speech practice, the only speech and the site practice there, the only therapist on the team. There's sole traders and people like that too, and so connection is really important. We're social beings, us humans, and so it's just really important to sustain us in our career is to have people to reflect with, and so that's just another way that we're trying to give people that opportunity. Even though it's not open at the moment, there will be a link to the on the website that you can get on the waiting list to hear when it does open. The reason we close it is that we will spend several months just nurturing our members and and focusing on them, and then we'll get some new members in as well.
Speaker 1:I just love that connection is at the forefront of everything you do therapeutically, professionally. It's just what you're all about and I think that is what makes everything you do so wonderful and so consumable, and I think it's very, very wonderful. One final thing to update us on, dave since we last spoke, your Warners Bay Clinic opened. How has that been going? Is it all systems goes full steam ahead or has it been a bit of a slow burn? I'm sure it might have been the the first.
Speaker 2:Well, no, it kind of hockey sticked. So it was. It was a slow burn because we were waiting on the premises and the building, and so we are very grateful to a growing understanding which is a great speech clinic up there owned by Lauren Haskins. She allowed us to have a couple of rooms there to start to see clients and support families, but we just had our two little rooms and that's all we could do when we were waiting on this eight room clinic, which I think is one of the best clinics in Australia now. And then all of a sudden it was like, all right, we're moving in and now we have eight rooms and a ball pit and slides and 100 places to hang the swings, which is and so it really did a hockey stick. And and, funnily enough, while I know a lot, I don't want to gloat too much because I know a lot of people are struggling to find OTs. We've got more OT like. We've got so many OTs and people reaching out to us there that we're like, ah, actually, if you know of clients that that need a service, we have no waiting list, because we brought three with us from Central Coast and then we've hired three as well and we've got people asking us to work there, which is cool We've. This is my big success. A year ago I said I never want to place a seek out again because it drove me crazy. And we've now hired 12 people in 12 months without placing an ad, because people are finding us and they're a good cultural fit, and so we just bring them on and find the clients later, because having someone who's a cultural fit, who wants that connection, who has that playfulness, who wants to make an impact, who's always learning, they're the key things that make your fit move about, and so that's really served as well. But yeah, one is Bay's booming. Yeah, we've got three great clinics. We're going to get all of us together in a month's time for our annual retreat. That'll be our fourth annual retreat and every year we get together and we don't focus on clinical stuff but we focus on our vision and our values and how to find meaning in our work and supporting the people who support the kids. This year it's all about amplifying our impact. Amplify your impact is a phrase I stole from Clinic Mastery, who are great business coaches, so I want to give them a shout out. But we're looking at what I want to say and this is probably important to your, your community Families don't want therapy.
Speaker 2:Right, that might sound weird. They actually don't want therapy. They don't want an hour of your time. What they want is an outcome that they're hoping therapy will help them get. They want a relationship with their kid. They want their kids to be happy, they want their kids to be successful. They want their kids have friendships and to be able to get up and get dressed, and that. So families want the outcomes. They don't want an hour of your time, and so, by all means, we should do therapy and we do it well and we help improve function and and their occupational participation. We do that.
Speaker 2:But so what we want to do is amplify our impact. We want to look beyond helping 24 people a week to how can we help hundreds of people, how can we create resources, how can we create social media and YouTube and podcasts and books and and things so that People can be learning and we've never met them and we talked about that last time but so as a team, we're gonna spend three or four days really focusing on how can we take this to the next level and that's pretty cool. What one way we're doing. It is we've just started partnering with a group called B1 G1. So B1 G1 Partners with businesses to help them figure out how they're gonna donate, how they're gonna give and and so like.
Speaker 2:For years it's like oh, I want to figure out how to give, how to do something. But you're like oh, who do I trust? This place is too big. How much is wasted on red tape or this place are they gonna disappear and can you trust it? So these guys base all the they. They vetted a whole bunch of people. They organize them by the UN Global Goals and they do all the hard work. You pay them sort of a membership fee and then every cent that you give Goes to the end place that you want it to.
Speaker 2:And so we're finding fun ways of you know It'll, it'll attach to things like every assessment will support something and, like our team, we're like we need to, we need to be supporting our social media to get the word out there, and so it'll be. We're sort of working through at the moment, but every time our team like and save a post, it'll get a day's playground For a kid in Cambodia, right, and it's like it is. Sounds a sound a bit bad, like you're gonna lock the playground after one day, but we it's just, I think, a way of visualizing what your impact as as well, and so we're gonna work out what are the meaningful ways that we're going to Amplify our impact in the world, and I wanted to give a shout out to be one G1, because they do a good job of Helping people. Do that.
Speaker 1:Incredible and it's so wonderful learning about different organizations like this that people probably wouldn't know about otherwise. So absolutely sounds like a great organization to part with and I hope that you share lots. Not all, I'm sure you'll keep something close your chest, but lots of stuff from the retreat I remember last year.
Speaker 1:You guys gave some snippets into what it was like for your team and it was incredible as an outsider sort of watching in and seeing that Connection and seeing what an incredible team that you've got. So fingers crossed for some more retreat content coming on the social so we can all have a little squizzy of what it's like to be part of the move about team.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'm gonna crack the social media Whip and get lots out there, because we do have an amazing team and I do think that that's the best way to share with people that the right people, that we're a fit for, that they can find us, because they Won't find us on seek.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm set. I'm not placing another round.
Speaker 1:No more secads, no more secads. And speaking of finding new day for finding, move about, give a little plug. What is the best way to reach you or reach your team? If people have heard stuff that they interested in, where can they find the book? Where can they find you? Where should people go?
Speaker 2:Good, cool, so move about. Commau is our website. There's a courses page as a careers page. There's a free resource on the careers page to a couple of free resources around Is your workplace working for you? So one's a quiz that people can do to look at their workplace in terms of vision and values, culture, finance, career, growth, work-life balance. That's cool. And then there's also just a free download of PDF for questions you should ask.
Speaker 2:I think we spoke about that last time. That's all on the website. I think we're probably I'm trying to be better at LinkedIn this year, but Instagram is where we get a lot of our content out. I'm Dave Gerib, underscore OT, and we've got moveabout dot OT and YouTube. Youtube is gonna be. I'm gonna get YouTube happening. This year. We just hit a thousand subscribers, so I want to get a lot more content up on there as well, and we're we're moving about therapy services there. But come find us on Insta, dave Gerib, underscore OT, and move that dot OT. Everything else will be promoted on on there as well and you can reach out to us as well.
Speaker 1:Incredible, and I'll pop the links to all of those mentioned Platforms in the show notes. If you want an easy click, save you going for the search. But you're, you're pretty easy to find, dave. You've you've got a toe in a lot of baskets, so you're pretty easy to do a quick search and you'll be there and if you have questions, just DM us on Instagram or on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:We will always chat to people. We will always help people find the support that they need.
Speaker 1:So you're incredibly generous with your time, dave, with everyone and with me coming on the pod, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you again, thank you, thank you. Thank you for coming on being a return guest of Holy the OT pod. I'm curious to see if this one creeps up to your current leaderboard at the time. I think it will. People love to listen to you. But thank you very much for coming on.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. I love to listen to you, so I'm I'll have fun listening to that part of it, and I've got a few to catch up on, and I heard there's a few more. You're recording today too, so there'll be another batch, which is exciting. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Another incredibly huge Thank you today for coming on the podcast an absolute hoot, as always. I just love chatting with Dave. He's just such a bundle of energy and so Generous with his time and generous with his thoughts and if you haven't read Dave's book, I highly highly recommend it. It is such digestible but clear information, all about behavior, all about regulation, and I think it's gonna be a great thing to have in your toolbox ready for those sessions with families, with teachers, with whoever it is that you work with. So definitely go and go and check it out, go and go and go and go and go and check it out. God, I'm good. Who let me have a podcast. Let's wrap this up, shall we with a wonderful fun fact, as we like to do, to try out any episode.
Speaker 1:My fun fact for this week is one that I think might be pretty well known, but I just reread it again. I think I remember this as one as a kid, and like trying to do it. And then I just yet re-read it and I agree with it wholeheartedly. But did you know? You cannot fold a piece of paper more than seven times in half, like fold it over, fold it over. I want to know if, like mythbusters, is that that show that you should try and like Bust these myths? I want to know if they've used like a heavy-duty, like Paper press or something to try to debunk that myth.
Speaker 1:But I just retried it again and I definitely couldn't do it. I got up to five folds and I was like now it's too much effort, I can't be bothered. But yeah, go and try it. Let me know if you try it. Let me know if mythbusters have done that as well. But that will be it for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you don't follow Dave on Instagram, go over and follow him. If you are a new listener here, follow me on Instagram, come and check out what I'm doing and see all the cool things that I've got planned. But just thank you everyone for your support and tuning in, and I just appreciate it so much. Ah, goodbye.