Episode 50 sees another therapist talks with Selah Dimech from @Neuroaffirm.
Selah is an Occupational Therapist who is passionate about supporting Neurodivergent adults and adolescents through evidence based neuro affirming approaches. Selah is leading the way having been the lead researcher for an article soon to be published in the International Journal of Disability, Development and Education as well as presenting at the National OT Exchange in 2022. Selah is building a really supportive tik-tok community aimed at expanding the awareness of Neuro-affirming Occupational Therapy and is just an absolute legend! Happy Listening
Selah's Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@selahdimech
Episode 50 sees another therapist talks with Selah Dimech from @Neuroaffirm.
Selah is an Occupational Therapist who is passionate about supporting Neurodivergent adults and adolescents through evidence based neuro affirming approaches. Selah is leading the way having been the lead researcher for an article soon to be published in the International Journal of Disability, Development and Education as well as presenting at the National OT Exchange in 2022. Selah is building a really supportive tik-tok community aimed at expanding the awareness of Neuro-affirming Occupational Therapy and is just an absolute legend! Happy Listening
Selah's Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@selahdimech
Today's episode is very proudly brought to you by InReach Co, australia's first exclusively regional, rural and remote Allied Health job platform. Inreach Co was created by Allied Health professionals for Allied Health professionals and is committed to connecting Australian communities with the Allied Health care workers they need For a simple and interactive way to explore current regional and remote positions, or for businesses wanting to explore job advertisement opportunities. Head to wwwinreachcocomau. The links will also be in the show notes. G'day guys and welcome to Holly the OT podcast. My name is Holly and I am an occupational therapist looking to create a judgment-free zone for all OT students, new grads and early youth therapists. Join me as I give my honest opinions on the highs and the lows and the ins and the outs of being an OT. Before I start today's episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Wujak Nongar people who are the traditional custodians of the land. This episode was recorded. G'day guys, and welcome back to another episode of Holly the OT podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. To all my regular listeners any new listeners, thank you for being here. I hope you enjoy the pod and enjoy today's episode. Feel free to check out some of the other EPs if there's anything that tickles your fancy, but today we've got an absolute cracker with the wonderful Sila from NeuroFirm over on TikTok. If you're on TikTok and there's any sort of remnants of OT on your For you page, I guarantee you will know who Sila is. She's a legend. She's so insightful and we just had a really great chat. She's got a very infectious personality and we laughed non-stop throughout this episode, so I hope you enjoy that. Before we do that, though, let's quickly pump through my highs and lows, as we like to do to start all our episodes. My high for the week is I've just gotten back from. It was like 10 days home with my family in New South Wales. We met new babies, we hung out with the old babies, we saw our friends and it was just absolutely beautiful. And, yeah, I just love going home, and then I love coming back to Perth too. It's nice. We live in a fun life at the moment, so that was very, very wonderful. My low for the week is the day before we left for Perth, I left on my plants out on the table to water them and quickly ducked off to the shops. But we're also in the middle of a heatwave here in Perth and it was nine o'clock in the morning and I kid you, not all of the leaves of my plants got sunburned and they still haven't recovered. We left them soaking while we went away and yeah, it's just very sad. My fiddly fig is down to four leaves and it was thriving two weeks ago. So that is sad. If you're a plant parent, you know that's sad. If you have tried to be a plant parent, I hope you will also appreciate why that is sad. But I will probably just go and buy some more to make myself feel better. But yeah, that's okay, that's fine, I'll push past it.
Speaker 1:But let's get into the chat with Cela and I Talk all things neuro-affirming practice, accommodations that can be made to support you while at uni, while transitioning into the new grad workforce. We talk research, research, research, we talk research and we talk a lot of TikTok too, which is my type of interview. Cela is a legend, like I said, and you guys are going to love it. Let's get into it. Today's podcast guest is the wonderful Cela. Cela used an occupational therapist who's passionate about supporting neurodivergent adults and adolescents through very evidence-based neuro-affirming practices. Cela is leading the way. She's been the lead researcher for an article published in the International Journal of Disability Development and Education, as well as presenting at the National OT Exchange in 2022. Cela is building a really supportive TikTok community aimed at expanding the awareness of neuro-affirming OT and I am just so excited to have this chat and talk all things OT. Welcome to the Holly OT pod Cela.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, quietly. Introduction there, holly. Oh, my goodness, I hope I live up to all of that. It's such an honor to be on this podcast, holly. You've certainly caught my eye with what you're doing and it's definitely been super inspiring to see, and I think there's so much space for, like, thinking outside the box in the OT space and that's something you're doing and it's just, yeah, so so inspiring.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so kind. Thank you so much. That's so lovely. Now, before we get into the podcast, I just want to acknowledge our unique situation that we have here. It's very funny. We've got our phone going on FaceTime. We've got the screen going with the recording. I've got my iPad off to the side. We're just adapting. Today we're being very OT and we had a bit of a time zone mishap, which was purely, purely my fault with the time zones.
Speaker 1:You guys know I'm not good with the time zones yet, but we've gone on the fly and we're here and I'm just yeah, we're doing well.
Speaker 2:We definitely are, and it's all things that I've certainly done before to my own clients. I'm like oh, yes, yeah, okay, now a difference, right. You know what I'm not looking for too, holly, it's when the time changes, like the time differences in, like Melvin and Sydney, and I'm just going to be like, okay, where's my, where's my clients, what are they showing off?
Speaker 1:I'm not looking for too, and I think I living in New South Wales, I think I very much had like a New South Wales privilege, not even thinking that other states in the country have different time zones. And now I'm over in WA and it's just, every time zone is different and everyone. I got a message the other day. Sorry, this is a tangent. I got a message the other day at 2 am in the morning. One of my friends had woken up to go to the gym at 5 in Sydney. She sent me a message at 2 am and I was like, nah, not on Crazy.
Speaker 2:that is wild, isn't it? Yeah, it's like, who are you? But also Eric.
Speaker 1:It's fine, you're okay, exactly anyway. Before we go on too many tangents because we're going to chat about a lot of great things today, I start all my podcast interviews the exact same way, and that is with a very fun game of True Truth and a lie. I am going to see if I can guess your lie. This is my first one in about four months, no, three months, so I'm a bit out of practice. So I think you might pick me today, but I'm excited to see what you've got. Two truths in a lie, what have you got?
Speaker 2:I'm also being mean too, because I'm trying to get you on the technicality which I know you've seen before, so we'll see how you go. Okay, number one I grew up in France. Two is I love to paint. And number three is I used to play at a band.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going with the gut feeling that there's a technicality here and I'm thinking you didn't grow up in France, but you might have grown up in another country, so I'm going to say that growing up in France is your lie.
Speaker 2:That's about oh no, you grew up in France. I actually clarified I was born here. So maybe this is a lie in itself that I was born in Australia, but I was in France from age three to ten. So I feel like you know, I feel like I can get away from saying that, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You spent more time in France than I have, so you can absolutely say that. And so what was your?
Speaker 2:lie. My lie is that I love to paint. It's not that I love to paint, it's just that I'm like an artsy person. But painting for me is like really, really tricky because as an ROT, of course, I've hyper analyzed my skills and fine motor skills is not one of them. So really being creative for me is trying to think creatively of how I can make something look good without eating like super fine motor skills.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that, and you used to be in a band, yeah so music has been a huge part of my life and yeah, I used to teach piano and we'll probably go into that a little bit later. But one of the things that I did to, I guess, a developed community here in Brisbane when I moved here is I looked out for a band to join and I did it and it was like such an incredible experience and I think it also I think it makes sense now looking at my social media once again jumping ahead. Sorry Holly, it got me outside of that comfort zone and being able to perform and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I got a lot of from that experience, really much enjoyed it, but no longer too much brand drama as it always is when it comes to musos, but yeah, I still like doing that on the side for myself now and I'm sure lots of those things that you sort of learn and and challenge yourself with have transpired into what you're doing today, so I'm sure plenty of transferable skills from that, exactly speaking of being in a band and and being artsy and crafty. I want to know what else life outside of OT looks like for you. Obviously, us as OTs we're very multifaceted and there's usually so much to us. So what is what does life outside of OT look like for you at the moment?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's been quite the journey, I would say, coming out from uni sealer to full-time work sealer, which I'm sure we can sort of all relate to in some aspect. But I think during uni I used to be like probably more artsy than I have had the time for these days, in that I always had some type of project going on, you know, like sewing or embroidery, like all sorts of things. I had a goal back in the day that I wanted to try every type of like art modality in my life. So you know, maybe I'll still get back to that. I don't know, it's still time, yes, still time. But I think having the time for that and like mental energy and physical energy has been challenging outside of work. Plus, I've had other priorities and trying to look for that creativity in different ways. So it's still a goal to try and get back to that, but maybe not, you know, right at this point in time.
Speaker 2:But the priority for me at the moment has been like friendships. That's the huge thing that I very much value for myself and my partner and I really love to like host our friends and like cook. We both love cooking, so it's something we do a lot of, and I think my friends would describe me as enjoying the finer things in life and I would semi agree, but it also depends on my budget at the time. So you know you gotta go with what you have and and then, other than that, I'd say the last two years has been very focused on like learning and growing and I think coming from uni and being bombarded with that, so then sort of not having anything and, yeah, I've really enjoyed learning about different topics that I find really valuable to myself, so like finances and business and all that sort of stuff and social media and things like that. So that's that takes up a lot of my time, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you sound very busy. You sound like a lot's going on. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2:Chaotic life, but also that's. That's how I love to live my life so that's fine, I'm the same.
Speaker 1:If there's not a lot going on, I am bored and I need more. So it's always something happening is it's a great way to be. For some other people not so much. But yeah, now run me through your journey to becoming an OT. At what point did you decide yep, I'm going to OT, I'm going to OT, I'm going to uni to study OT. How did you get to that decision?
Speaker 2:Okay, this is a little bit of a story. So apologies, no, apologies me, but I also love hearing people's OT stories, because it's always different, hey, like it's never straightforward. I don't think so, and mine certainly wasn't so, and this might involve a little oversharing, but that's okay, that's on brand for me, so all good. So, firstly, I would say I'd have very varied education background. So obviously, like growing up in France and going to school there, I'm going to school here in Australia, but then also I was homeschooled for a few years and and then I didn't do grade 11 and 12. So that's a little fun fact.
Speaker 2:And I think, coming out from that, I was not in the mindset to pursue higher education. I just, like, did not know what I wanted to do with my life. So I actually studied graphic design and tape, just as like the first fun thing to be like, yeah, that seems interesting, that's cool. And then quickly realized that I didn't quite have the skills that I wanted. You know that I sort of needed to be to be successful in that area. So I then studied a whole bunch of other things and I'm someone who, like you, very much learned through doing which is expensive. But it's fine, we do what we have to do.
Speaker 2:So I started education and then I was studying music and didn't finish either of those, of course, but anyway.
Speaker 2:And then at the time I was teaching counter and that was my job for like the longest time and absolutely loved it, adored it. And I was starting to think about like, oh my gosh, I wish I could recreate this experience for me, but with like a career type job rather than teaching counter is hard to make that into a career, and something I realized from my education degree was that I couldn't tolerate being in a whole classroom full of very noisy children, I feel you, yeah, that was just a way too overwhelming for me. So I was like, why am I doing music? Cause that's just gonna lead me to that same path. So, yeah, and then, so anyway. So I was teaching piano. Some of my students had, you know, some disabilities. So I had someone who, well, it was called Esper just back in the day, and someone else with bipolar and I know you can't really well shouldn't pick favorites with students or clients, but he was my favorite student for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh, we all do it, and anyone who says they don't have favorites is lying to themselves.
Speaker 2:I know, I completely agree and I could just, I could just see how like impactful the lessons were. Like he'd come in and be like, oh, Sheila, you're a very scary person. I'm like I don't think so, but okay, and then but, and then he'd be like, oh, you know, I was talking to my psychologist about, you know, piano lessons and how I'm like really trying and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is huge for you, you know, and but at the same time, like you know, he really he really tried and he was doing so well. So I was like, okay, cool, this is really cool that I can help someone do something and, and you know, be that environment to foster that growth for them, even though it's like just music, and so that sort of got me thinking about that space of like helping people, I think. And then another piano student she was in grade 12 at the time and I asked her what she was gonna do the following year and she said she wanted to get into speech pathology. So I was like, oh, okay, interesting, and I like Googled it.
Speaker 2:I think I had the UQ website off and I read about speech pathology and suddenly, enough, I had speech pathology myself when I was younger and I couldn't tell you why and I don't understand what the outcomes were. I don't actually understand at all. But anyway, that's just a side fun thing. But I was like, no, I don't think speech pathology is right for me because I sometimes have my own communication challenges just depending on how I'm going at the time. So that may not be the best journey. But then there was a link there for OT and I of course had never heard of it before, so I clicked on it, I read about it and like something instantly clicked, even though I had no idea what it was still. But I was like this sounds amazing.
Speaker 1:I love how most people's OT careers starts with some form of Google search. There's some form of what can the internet tell me about this magical word that I've heard? I think most stories have some element of that in it. It's very fascinating, isn't it? It is, it is for sure. So fast forward. You landed on OT. There was something about it that you enjoyed. You obviously ended up at uni. What was uni like for you? What sort of a student were you?
Speaker 2:I will start by saying that my performance, if you will I don't like the term performance, but anyway it fluctuated a lot. But I would say that university in general for me was really my time to find myself and probably reinvent myself. I went from shy, homeschooled kids, socially awkward, that sort of thing, to where I'm today Definitely still socially awkward, but I think I wear it a little better than I used to and I really put myself into a lot of different situations to help me, I guess, discover what I was good at, while I wasn't super great at and yeah, it was a fantastic, I think, just learning experience and growth experience. But I think it's where I sort of realized that I definitely had some challenges and I think sometimes I can pinpoint that back to specific things, like some of it was maybe homeschooled, wasn't used to time, process of exams and that sort of thing. But I also have a really poor memory. So studying for exams for me has never been an OK thing. So, yeah, just a lot of fluctuations, not credit exams, great at assignments, great at writing, anywhere where I can sort of have a think about what it is I want to do and there's a process to it, and then I can create something from that. I think that's where I sort of thrived with the writing side of things, but then I was also a little bit of an overtiever, or at least I tried to be.
Speaker 2:So I was student representative for the first and second year of uni, which was a cool leadership-type experience. Did I do a great job of it? I don't know, maybe not. But also I do think I learned a few things through that experience as well. And then I applied for some research scholarships. I was there too when I got two of them, so one over winter and one over summer and yeah, that was my first take on research and I did it because I wanted to see what it was like, because, once again, I've learned through doing, and I equally found it challenging but also really, really, really cool, and I think I've realized how much I love to deep dive on topics and how more confident I feel once I do that. If that makes sense, yeah, absolutely yeah. So that was a fantastic experience. But I also I was working three jobs Chaotic life, obviously. But yeah, learned a lot and did a lot and yeah, great experience, amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm glad to have an overall positive experience and we might talk a little bit about the research side of things a little later. So I'm actually curious to know that side of what you've done. And obviously you've had an article published which is really epic. But you mentioned that you were quite shy. Obviously you had been homeschooled and that sort of transpired into that adolescent, young adult. How did that go? Once you got out onto placements and you obviously had this great clinical knowledge and you were doing incredible research, incredible stuff academically, how did you go placement wise?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really struggled with my placements and I think it took me by surprise. But also, if I had looked back I probably could have seen it coming. I'd say I think placements for me were a huge learning experience and of course that's the same for anyone, right? But it wasn't so much the learning of OT, which did a lot of, for sure, but it's actually a lot of learning about myself and what my own needs were. So I can give you some specific examples.
Speaker 2:My first placement was at a hospital and for the life of me I could not concentrate to write my notes in the busy wards and I just I was killing myself over it. I was like my fellow OT can do it, everyone else can do it Like what's wrong with me? And that's when I clued onto the fact that I certainly have some auditory sensitivities and visual sensitivities. And it wasn't until maybe week eight that we were like, oh OK, how about we write them somewhere else? And then it got a little bit easier. But also I had like two weeks left, so I could have helped a little bit, but that's fine.
Speaker 2:Just in terms of my learning style as well. I really struggle, I think, to be thrown into situations Like I'm very much a I need the whole process, like I need to observe first and then I need to try, and then I need to fail a bit and then I learn eventually. I'm very reflective thinker and I think that a lot of the time in the OT space apologies for costing shade to OT's and I'm sure this isn't for everyone, but I find that we were a little bit of a hypocritical profession sometimes to our own, like we know how to teach and we know to be strong space, but do we do that to our students? Questionable.
Speaker 1:That's actually a very great point.
Speaker 1:I've often thought that, even just with my own uni experience not to make this about me, but I definitely had times I had conversations with my parents about they're teaching us how to be occupation based and they're teaching us how to make accommodations, but no one's making accommodations for us.
Speaker 1:There is a standard way that we complete at uni and if you aren't completing it that way, tough big use, and I'd like to hope that that has started to change and I think it definitely has from when we were probably going through uni. I thought that it was that long ago, but like it's very true, like just from a student uni perspective, that the accommodations we are teaching our OT's to make are not being made for our students. So it's an interesting topic and it is an interesting area that I'm sure, with all this movement that is happening and then you're affirming space, I'm sure that will begin to trickle through to the university systems. But, as we know, curriculums don't change quickly and systematic things like that will take some time. But fingers crossed there is a little bit more adaptability and flexibility, because, yeah, it is an interesting topic, you're very right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think it will start from these things like a bit more of a top down approach, I suppose, where the more information we share like through your podcast, Holly the more people will understand. And I think as well, like I know, you're providing supervision as well, and I think that's absolutely so fantastic to be bringing in those approaches for new grads and things like that too, Because that's there, especially if they've had pro experiences at uni. It's quite daunting going into the workforce and to have that approach as a new grad is yeah, would just be so empowering I think.
Speaker 1:What was your experience like as a new grad? Let's go there shall we. Great takeaway. How did you go like student? Obviously, you didn't have great experiences as a student. They weren't bad necessarily, but there was obviously some learnings in there. How did you then make that leap from student to new grad?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think because I realized so much about my own needs whilst at uni and I realized what type of accommodation that I really needed for myself. And I think, when we're thinking about accommodations as well and once again, we can go through this later too but we need to have the right environment to then set ourselves up for minor changes if that makes sense. So I quickly realized that I needed a supportive environment in order to thrive, and one that allowed autonomy, because I've always thrived when I've been able to have autonomy. And I did apply for a hospital job and I was like I remember calling my friend and absolutely freaking out to her because I did have the interview and I was like I don't think I want this, like this is so against what I'm trying to get, like why am I wanting this? And I think there's this whole. I think I dear and you're sort of in a bit of a bubble when you're at uni too of like, oh, hospital job is like elite or something, and sure you do have to be elite to be in a hospital job. I put my head off to them. But I also think, like you know, it's okay to think about what your own needs are and if that's different to that environment, then that's okay.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, I did the interview. Thankfully I didn't get it and I was like, okay, no, I definitely need something supportive and that's what I looked out for. And I got a job in more of a community context, which I was super nervous about because my second placement was actually community context and I really struggled with that. But it was mostly pediatric based rural, which I'm sorry. I don't mean to like talk poorly about rural experiences, but I just need someone, like I need my people and I didn't have my people and, yeah, I really struggled with that For sure I won't take offense.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it's a fantastic experience for many other people, but yeah, so anyway, that's what I was looking for for my first job Managed to find it. The support, oh my gosh, amazing. Great supervision, great people, very lovely and non-judgmental and okay with the difference, and I think community in general can be really good at that, and I definitely found a good workplace for that. So I think at the start everything sort of clicked and I was like, yeah, cool, I've made the right decisions for sure.
Speaker 1:Amazing and I wanna jump back a little bit to you, mentioning that you were looking for a workplace, obviously, that allowed for accommodations, and I think it's such a great place that you were in to be able to know what your accommodations were and what you needed.
Speaker 1:But I think it's also important to pay homage that you, if you weren't in those uncomfortable situations as a student, you wouldn't know what those accommodations were that you needed, you wouldn't know what your working preference was. And I just think you know, if there's any students who are listening and you might be in a tricky placement situation, you might already be in a tricky workplace and you're noticing that it's not suitable for you that, as hard as those moments are, that's where we learn and that's how we learn about ourselves and learn sort of what position we're going to thrive in. So, to be one of those catch 22, like, obviously we don't like the toxic positivity in trying to put a positive spin on things, but it sounds like it's worked, really positive for you and giving you that really strong sense of self and strong sense of what you need to be able to thrive, and it sounds like you are thriving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I 100% agree with that, and certainly when I work with my own clients, that's where we start. It's like, okay, what hasn't worked in the past, and I think every and having that starting place can then help us, clue us in on other things that maybe we haven't experienced yet, but certainly we could see it coming like if we really had to think about it. So I think you're completely right and I think, if you asked me if I would change anything about my past, given how chaotic it was, I actually don't think I would, just because I, like you said, have grown and learned so much about myself because of it. So, yeah, you're completely right.
Speaker 1:What does work look like for you now? I think you're doing some pretty cool things. We're going to talk a little bit more about your TikTok after, but that's how I sort of first saw what you were doing and you shared with me your TikTok page and I went through, admittedly, a very deep dive into all of your videos and you're so wonderful and you answer such a diverse range of questions. But how does that transpire into your clinical work at the moment? What does clinical life look like for you, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have made the very scary leaf into being a sole trader. Thank you which is very exciting but very nerve-wracking at the same time. But yeah, certainly for me. Okay. So in my previous role it was generalist OT, mostly adult caseload, which of course generalist means, you know, bit of therapy, a bit of hormones, assisted care, like just the whole shebang really. And I very quickly realized okay, cool, I definitely way prefer therapies with adults, not kids. Sorry, holly.
Speaker 1:Please, it's okay.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I definitely developed that passion area for it and I was at that point in my career where to progress in that workplace I was looking at doing more AT and hormones and I was like, oh, like, do I really want that for myself? No, so, yeah. So that's why well, one of the reasons there's many reasons but one of the reasons why I've decided to go solo. So now I've just purely just got neurodivergent adult clients absolutely loving it so far, very early days, but it's just yeah, it's just my favorite type of client all of the time. So I swear I actually don't have any favorite clients right now because they're all my favorite clients.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think that just is the beauty of OT and when we find what we love and when we do that all the time, like it doesn't drain our energy as much as it's not doing things that don't light our fire, Like it's just so evident that you're passionate about what you're doing and how cool that you can, you know, curate a full caseload just of what you wanna do, Like that is the beauty of our jobs, it's the beauty of private practice.
Speaker 1:And then and the NTIS, and I just think, yeah, it's so wonderful seeing you able to sort of niche down and provide that, that really specific therapy that you are providing. Run me through a little bit about the sort of therapy that you do. You're very, very proud and very, very open with being very neuroaffirming. I think it's a really not interesting space at the moment, but I think in a world where it is the right thing at the moment to be neuroaffirming and it's sort of the buzzword and you know it gets thrown around and every second person is saying then neuroaffirming. But I think it's really evident in the videos you put out that you are neuroaffirming. You are leading the way, you are sort of sparking those conversations with what you're doing. What does that mean to you to be neuroaffirming?
Speaker 2:OT. Yeah, that's a huge question and I think it's something that like, depending on the day, I'm going to give a different answer, to be honest, holly, because it's just, it is so broad and encompassing I think. Where do I start with this? I think I would say first of all that being neuroaffirming for me has come very naturally and I think there's been clues for that over the years, in that, once again, I absolutely love my neurodivergent adult clients and I think some clues for me were that I very much dealt with them and have always had really fantastic feedback about their experience with me, which have, you know, very, very valuable. And then also just the clinical wins that come from those sessions and being able to really see my clients thrive and not sorry, this is totally self-promotion and maybe against opera regulations, I don't know, but I won't give you specific things, but it's just been so lovely to see that and then hearing, maybe, of other clinicians' experience with working with that caseload and maybe like struggling a little bit more or not seeing those outcomes. So I think neurodiversity affirming practice hasn't been something that I've had to specifically learn. It's very much come naturally and I think this is a journey that I'm going on at the moment, holly.
Speaker 2:So I am certainly not diagnosed myself, but I've certainly recognized all of traits within myself and maybe 2024 is the year for me, I don't know but certainly I've realized over the years that I am incredibly sensory sensitive and I have made a zillion accommodations for my life in that regard. And have I used those terms? That I'm neurodivergent, know, but now that I am servicing this caseload, I think it would be valuable to have that diagnosis because I think one of the biggest things that really helps that therapeutic connection is to have that shared lived experience and understanding that there's shared lived experience there, and certainly I do that. Anyway, I'm like, oh, when I'm feeling like that this is what it's like for me and this is what I do, there's a lot of that therapeutic sharing that happens with the neuroaffirming way, I think personally. So, yeah, that's just, I guess, the backstory of that. But there's a lot to be said about the neurodivergent affirming approach, which I totally can get into if you want me to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I look, I'd love to unpack it with you. I think it's like the way it sounds. I think there's a lot of therapists that have sort of had to make that really conscious shift over the last few years to change their therapy. I know I was one of them. I was very reward based when I first started. It was very much behavior management when I first started and again, our populations are different but I had to make a very conscious shift to challenge my thought process and challenge why I was doing it and I very much think I'm neuroaffirming in what I do now.
Speaker 1:But it's been a journey to get here. If there was potentially someone who was listening who is sort of in that mindset still where they know they need to change but it's so tricky to change what we've known and change what we do. And I love hearing that you've always had this approach and you've always had it sort of ingrained in sort of what you're doing. But, yeah, what would you? What sort of advice might you give to someone who's ready to make that shift but doesn't really know how?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a fantastic question and something I was reflecting on the other day actually, because I'm like, okay, no, I need to practically think about how we get to this stage, especially if I'm eventually thinking of employing people and things like I wanna make sure that they know that approach as well. So I think honestly, it's a first things. First is understanding the neurodivergent experience, because I think if we're looking at the neurodivergent experience from a neurotypical lens, it's very easy to, I think, misunderstand some of the challenges and maybe some of the things we observe as OTs, because we learn those observation skills right and I think we learn to infer things like that, we create a hypothesis and we test that hypothesis, whatever. And I think that neurodivergent OTs often get it wrong, like get those assumptions wrong, unfortunately, for example, considering that our clients are lazy because they're not following the recommendations, the very strict recommendations that we've put forth, or yeah, things like that. And I think also not, not Not thinking that they they have the underlying knowledge of how to do the task and so always just reverting to education, but actually Education is not always the thing, it's actually just being able to, to adapt what they know of the task to suit their needs.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think, as a place to start, I would say, hop on, take talk, hop on social media and follow some people that who are neurodivergent and and try and understand their experience and really understand it, like not just seeing the symptoms and, you know, knowing it from what we may have learned from you, which I would you know I was quiet, but anyway, I think, from from there, if you can understand that, then you can start to see, see things from a different point of view, and then, when you're starting to see those things, you can actually pick apart that some of the practices that you're doing Just not helpful and they're actually quiet.
Speaker 2:They can actually be quite detrimental to people really. So, and you know, use that, use those task analysis skills on yourself and those reflection skills that we we know and do so well, and but also go read about it, like go educate yourself, right, there's so much out there these days and and I certainly do a lot of that myself, especially for the specific strategies like I'm always Hoping to fill my toolkit with with more because everyone's different and that's the thing about the spaces. Everyone is just so different and you can't just create one visual schedule and for that to be helpful for everyone that is absolutely not the way you know, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think the thing I love that you said there was, you know, listen and learn to neurodivergent voices.
Speaker 1:And I think you know I remember the first time I read an article that was sort of challenging my sort of sort of thought process and I shut it down completely. I was like that's just one person's experience, everything else I'm doing is fine, like, but you know, we came more prevalent and it became louder and and there was more voices coming out and you know if anyone is, you know, feeling Disheartened by you know potentially, of been doing you know, non neuro affirming practice and and no one ever intentionally sets out to cause damage and no one ever intentionally wants to, you know, cause masking, all those things. But it is an uncomfortable situation to be in, is a therapist and we have to hold space for that. And you know the journey is a long one and you just need to have really honest conversations with With yourself and those around you and just don't be afraid for it to feel uncomfortable that everything you're doing is changing it's. It's a new thing we're learning about but you Listening to neurodivergent voices is the absolute bare minimum, I think, at this day and age.
Speaker 1:I think if we're not doing that. We're doing harm like we need to be listening to voices yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:You're clearly such a therapist. I appreciate you at that point of.
Speaker 1:Incredible yes.
Speaker 2:Winning. No, I think I think you're so right and actually so some of the things that I've found that really I think Shocks some of my plans is like when I say things like you know what, I don't know what's gonna work for you, and all like you know what, we have to try that and just like, see, you know I might not work. Yeah, just like being okay with like not knowing and like also like I'm constantly like that in my sessions. I'm like I don't know, like I don't know what's gonna work, I don't know what your experiences like, but I, we do deep dives. That's what I call task analysis, deep dives. And that is the most fun thing, because a lot of times my clients then Honestly come up with strategies themselves and I'm like, yes, that's what we want, you know, because people will follow their own, you know their own ideas and strategies so much better if I were to just lay it out for them. So I think that's definitely a place to start.
Speaker 1:I would say in your sessions if you're not sure, don't, don't come with presumptions, just just ask questions and then see what that takes you Absolutely and, I think, highlighting that there are so many options and we are going to do trial and error and this might not work, I think it gives hope to those that we are working with that we're not just going to pigeon and hold them into one strategy, and that's going to really give them the opportunity to Share that true experience and not just feel like that they're stuck into the one approach and the one strategy. And I think it's so important because there is so many accommodations we can make and there are so many recommendations and they will work differently for different children, different adults, different adolescents, whoever we're working with. It's the beauty of our job, but also is the overwhelming part of our job as well. So it's a part of the fun, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think you can be so creative in this space, which I absolutely love, like it is the funnest thing absolutely, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit here.
Speaker 1:I do apologize. Do you have any sort of recommendations for Accounts that people might be able to follow or resources that are really beneficial? And if you haven't got any of the head, that is okay. We might put together a little bit of a list if you've got any afterwards.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I may have to come back on that with something about my brain. Holy is that. I am really really really bad at remembering names of things like I just like words do not stick in my brain, like I've got things that I can picture right now, but like I'm gonna help us, but certainly there's this fantastic resources and I'd say, like Tannels, to follow as well, like on social media, once again.
Speaker 2:But I would say also, without like, always take, you know, take everything I'm gonna say with a grain of salt, but, like always, you know, analyze that. Someone's experience that you're listening to is isn't the full experience of the neurodivergent experience. Everyone's got their own experience of it. So, like, as you're looking at those things, be like okay, cool, that's their experience, that's fantastic. Maybe I can Take that little bit of advice and apply it to someone, but it's not going to be the full picture, and I think that's where we are as therapist is we need to uncover the full picture and I think that's fantastic spot that we're in to be able to do that for for our clients, yeah, so anyway, sorry, I can answer that question I'll come back to you.
Speaker 1:No, that's okay. That's okay. If there's any, any sort of really good ones that you think, let me know. Now. I'll add them to the post when we, when we post the page. But no stress at all, run me through that, because I've got a page that everyone should follow and it's your tick tock page. So that is a very, very big recommendation that I think everyone should go and check out. Run me through. How did you start a tick tock? Where did that come from? Is it a creative outlet like what's what's your goal over on the tick tock? Oh, my gosh, holy, um wow okay.
Speaker 2:So many thoughts. I definitely started it as a creative outlet. Yeah, I think one of the things that I found really challenging over the last couple of years of being out of uni is, like I said before, just like Really finding, finding myself and my creativity, because like just just being so bent out from work all the time and just not feeling like I have the space for it. And also I think I'm in that just stage of my life and career where I'm like I need well, sorry, I've always been very results driven. I can't do something without it being a result at the end and I need it to be productive for me in some way, whether it be financially or whether it be for my career or just something that aligns with my current goals. So I actually, to be fair, started tick tock as like a, like a lifestyle, you know content, type, type girly Did not grow, you know well, for me for any particular you know reasons. I it was taking up a lot of my time, very much enjoyed doing that sort of stuff, but I was like as not gonna, nothing is gonna come with this. So I stopped that and then, honestly, holly, for the last couple of years I've been looking at different, different side hustles, different businesses, definitely on that vein of things, because I think there have been moments early within my career so far, especially before I realized my passion era was neurodivergence and that I could actually choose to focus on that if I wanted to. You know, there was a barrier for so long that I was like, oh no, I have to Do her mods, you know, until you sort of flip that script on yourself and you're like, oh wait, no, that doesn't need to happen, that's fine. So anyway, I've been, I was looking, I was looking for an out, not gonna lie and try to bunch of things. And I came back to tick tock and actually it was one of one of my clients. Once again, I do so much because my clients are my students. It's amazing, I love it. They had said that they found their support coordinator through tick tock and I was like, oh my god, amazing, let me look that up. And I did and I was like this is so informative, it's so. If she was also yet neuro, affirming, I'm like this is so powerful, this is amazing.
Speaker 2:And then I think, just because of my own, just just myself, I was getting a lot of like that neurodivergent content in my feed, which I love and has been so incredible for my own learning about myself, but also for my client, and the other thing I noticed about all of that, though, was there was like very minimal ot representation within that, and, and I still don't think people understand the OET role in the adult space especially and, to be fair, I do think that NDIS has had a huge, huge impact to that, almost creating our role in that space, but also the whole neurodivergent coach thing has been a thing that's happened with this whole neurodiversity affirming movement, and certainly there's a place for that, and I think that can be really helpful for some people, but I would also argue that OETs make fantastic creatures in that space, and perhaps our role is a little bit more broad, and we know how to assess for sensory processing, we know how to assess for executive functioning and all of those extra things, so I was like you know what I need to share my knowledge about this?
Speaker 2:This is crazy to me, and so I did, and it just yeah, it's kind of started from there. I got featured in a news article within a couple weeks. Well, it was weird.
Speaker 1:It was wild so good, and what's the sort of process between making a video? I know you answer a lot of questions that come through, which I think is really great because you're really sharing lived experience and it's people's real questions. But as far as coming up with content, like does that come easily to you or do you just do it when you've got the energy, Like how does that feel?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm still creating my process, I would say. But my process so far has been to sit down and just think about the topics that I want to talk about and then, like I'm a bit of a talker Sorry, holly, you may have already noticed, and that's why we're doing a podcast, exactly, and just like ad-libbing basically. So once I think of the topic I want to talk about, I just ad-lib, and then I'll edit out all of the waffle which I do a lot of, not going to lie, and look, I've tried scripting, I've tried all of these other things, but for my brain I really struggle pre-planning. That's why I think I might have ADHD, but that's fine, and so for me, I very much think in the moment and as I'm talking. So it's either I talk a lot and then I create a script and then I do it again, or I just do it, and so that's what I do.
Speaker 2:I do it, yeah, but I am wanting to create more diverse content, I would say, especially now that I have my own clinic space, which I'm so excited about. So you know, doing like the day in the life or like sharing resources and all that stuff, but it just takes, I think, a little bit more like planning for me, and that's something that can be quite draining if I do too much of so yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think it's a side like I know similar with the podcast. Like if I am planning a podcast, if I have dot points, if I know what I'm talking about, it's terrible. It's like this doesn't follow the same flow. It doesn't. I don't make sense. I'm too worried about following what I've got on my paper. If I just press record and just start talking, it's incredible what I can come out with. And sometimes I'm like, oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 1:So I'm very much agree that you're saying they're like the ad lib stuff is the way to go. But also with the content creation side of things, like it can be exhausting. It can be like you can get a bit of that creative block and it's like, all right, I've got these followers that I need to engage with, but I don't have anything right now. And I find when you force it and you're not feeling it, that's when it's not natural and you start shifting into this space that you don't really want to go in because you're trying to force something. So yeah, I'm very much like I'll do it when I've got the energy and I'll do it when I feel like it's coming naturally to me, but there's no pressure otherwise to sort of make content just for the sake of making content. But everything you post is incredible and if you guys don't have TikTok, download it and and start following.
Speaker 1:But I do believe I saw you made an Instagram account the other day, so I'm great she's crossing over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am. I'm like Okay, it's time Instagram, let's go Get on the reels it's.
Speaker 1:you know, it's just one more thing to post on, but it'll be good that people can reach you on a variety of platforms. I think that's really exciting, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think. So that's something I was getting feedback about or just even talking to actually, yeah, talking to my friends about it, I'm like, yeah, I started this TikTok and they're like, and some of them just still, six months on, have not seen anything. But I've done, and purely because it's on TikTok, so I'm like, Okay, fine, time to time to share. She's coming over, she's making the bridge.
Speaker 1:I am incredible. Now, I wanted to ask you really quickly about your research article and what that process was like. Research is, in all honestly, not an area that I ever enjoyed personally for my own learning style, but I always find it really fascinating when other people sort of go into that area. So how did you get from you know, doing a few research, extra things that you need to having an article published?
Speaker 2:Yes, fantastic question. Now I should also clarify it's being published in the next issue. I don't know when that's coming out, but it's definitely been accepted. I just you know I'm in this limbo stage where it's actually not technically being published, but it's coming.
Speaker 1:It's coming, good disclaimer, but claim it.
Speaker 2:Just so I'm not like gaslighting it over here, doing the research projects at uni were fantastic. One of them was literally just like what's that word Transcribing? Like qualitative data and you know, super easy stuff, brain dead, but definitely very interesting to see. I guess that that process starting, and then I was involved in some of the discussions with some of my lecturers after the fact of trying to like analyze it and stuff, so it gave me really great insight about that process. The next one was a literature review and such a fun topic. It was about how playing a musical instrument can help like rehabilitate someone with, like with who has experienced a stroke. And that was, yeah, obviously a passion area of mine and I honestly wanted to keep going with that research, but it wasn't offered the following year, so, whatever, it's fine. And then we had like a range of topics that we could choose from, like different, different lists of different projects. I admittedly did not get my first preference, I didn't even get my seventh preference. I think I got my eighth preference and I and once again, though this was back when I was still thinking hospital was the right journey for me like just in a very different headspace, and I managed to get a research project that was about a family focused intervention, for isn't, yeah, like autistic children, but it was very it's very like, parent focused in its approach. So the therapist works with the parent and then the parent someone that's implementing things. And if you're a pediatric rotee, I highly recommend starting to think in that space because I can definitely see how, how beneficial it is to really involve the whole family in that process. But anyway, I started working on that project. It was qualitative research, so I interviewed, you know, the parents about their experience and I think, yeah, through that, yeah, amazing, amazing insight I think about. I think about how they viewed therapy as well and how they've used their children, and one of the cool things that I got from it was that that they the turning point for them was that when they realized that therapy wasn't meant to make their children neurotypical, it was actually, yeah, they had to really change their view of their child and to be accepting of how their child was. And anyway, that's just a side note. I felt that was incredible and I think probably the starting point for me thinking in that space as well, to be, to be quite honest. So, yeah, I did.
Speaker 2:That research project definitely had its challenges. I would say I love writing, but I also find writing a very difficult thing for me, and I think it's because, once again, I can't I can't precinct of things. I have to start doing, but then in doing I get overwhelmed and then I have to go back to the beginning and then it's just this whole like process over and over again. But I managed to do really well. I had some fantastic feedback from my supervisors about my like analysis section and I think once again, I think I can think quite deeply about things when I when I do so yeah, it was a really, really cool experience wrote it up and then, yeah, finished. Uni did well in that and it's really been just like that waiting game since then. You know you have to edit it, submit it to a publisher, do the whole thing again, yeah. So there you go.
Speaker 1:There's my research experience Once it's published published in inverted commas because we know it's publishing, but once once it can be read, please send it through and I'll make sure that everyone that is listening to this episode has access to where it is, because I think it sounds very informative, particularly for that pediatric space and leaning into that sort of parental approach more I think it was going to be. Yeah, I'm excited to read it. I can't wait to see what you put in there Incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm excited to send it to you. I'm also excited to read it again myself. To be honest, it's been two years it's like I forgot what I wrote about.
Speaker 1:Sila, tell me what's the next five years look like for you? You've obviously just started your own practice. You mentioned that you've opened a clinic space, or you're about to open a clinic space. You're delving into the social media game. Where do you see yourself in the next five years with all of that?
Speaker 2:I am still certainly in the dreaming state and I know probably from your own experience, there's just so many different options and different, different, different choices to make.
Speaker 2:I love the freedom and flexibility that I've put myself into the situation, but also it's like a little bit daunting.
Speaker 2:So, essentially, what I see happening is certainly continuing with my solo practice, but then I'm honestly quite overwhelmed with the amount of people that have reached out wanting therapy and I'm already like I need to set up a waiting list at the moment, because I'm like, yeah, we're at that stage, and so I definitely think there's a need.
Speaker 2:Whether I'm the person to create the business to have heaps of therapists in this space and working in this, I'm not sure I think for me I would love to really develop my own, I guess, leadership skills first, I'd say, and my own clinical experience a little bit more, because I think if I were to bring on employees, I'd really need a really great training program, because I don't think sometimes it's not enough just to have supervision. You really have to frame how you think about it and then you can have supervision to back that up if that makes sense. So that's the space I'm thinking of. So at the moment maybe just me doing it. I am thinking of hiring someone to write my reports so low key, because I hate that side of it. So we'll see if that happens. If anyone's interested, reach out to me.
Speaker 1:We've got a job ad. This is the job ad. I'll put your contact details in. I just think it sounds like it's a very exciting, like unknown phase for you that could go so many different ways. And that is the beauty of questions like this is you know if somebody will have a very set where they're going to be and some people are just happy to sort of go with it, and I love that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we can both also understand the whole social media space. There are so many opportunities within that that may come, may not come, and I think you sort of have to think about what the need is as well. So for me, I know that my clients are like where are the people that I want to connect with? Like how do I find friends? Like there's such a great online space, but where are the people physically?
Speaker 2:Sorry, I think I would love to create some type of a group where people can come in and meet other neurodivergent people, but yeah, just in the thinking stages, and then also maybe some some learning content online, because I think, especially in my role, there is a lot of edge, there's huge education component to what I do, and sometimes I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, even though I then adapt it depending on what the person you know, how the person presents, but some of it is just, you know, general education information and I think if that can be accessed a little bit more easily, then that's that's a great starting point for people, especially who don't have NDS plans. You know, like it's quite inaccessible to have an OT, so I think that might be a space that I might delve into. But yeah, dreaming, dreaming stage right now.
Speaker 1:I love it. I'm so excited to see what comes next for you and where you take your TikTok and where you take your business. It's a very exciting time and I think you've got great ideas and the great brain and experience behind it to sort of bring them to life, which is really, really exciting. And obviously you're seeing all the success. You're seeing all these you know great things happening. You know, based off your career, if you could go back in time and tell that that shy uni student, sheila, one thing, what, what bit of advice would you give yourself?
Speaker 2:Honestly like stick it out. And I'm so glad that I followed that advice, even though I didn't know it at the time. But there were so many times, holy, that I was like that's it, that's it, I need to quit. I need to do something different. There's not working for me. But no, stick it out. I think if, if you're 50% there, or maybe 60%, let's go a little bit more than 50. If you're 60% there, then I think accommodations can make up for the rest of the 40%. Or maybe it's knowledge or it's support or it's something else. But yeah, I think just sticking it out, like you'll, you'll find, you'll find your groove one day, yeah.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I think that's very good advice and I think there's lots of people listening that will be able to put that advice into practice. Now. Sheila, I've got a new way I'm wrapping up my podcast episodes. You were the first person I'm trying it with.
Speaker 1:So I hope it goes well, if it doesn't, we won't do it again, but I'm introducing my rapid fire questions to wrap it up. We've got some OT, some non OT things. I'm going to fire them at you and you're going to give me your rapid answers. Are you ready? I am ready, let's do it. Sheila tomato sauce in the fridge or in the cupboard?
Speaker 2:Or fridge for sure who likes to eat the warm?
Speaker 1:cupboard. What are?
Speaker 2:you talking about. You're wrong, I'm a cupboard girl.
Speaker 1:I'm a cupboard girl. What is your all-time favorite OT resource?
Speaker 2:Look I have so many, but okay, okay, Real quick. I think the sensory assessment is really good, like sensory profile at all. You know that's something great starting point. I also would say the consumerfinancegov my ex-work-wife she showed that to me and fantastic for, like, money management, budgeting skills, teenagers, you know that sort of thing. Fantastic, Go check it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, I might link it in the show notes Summer or winter, or spring or autumn.
Speaker 2:I would say winter. Yeah, growing up in France and this most know for sure. Favorite and least favorite unit at uni I'd say favorite, and this is weird, probably, but honestly, those first couple of subjects where we learn about OT theory, that was like life-changing for me because I started thinking about the world in a different way. So, yeah, I actually liked the OT theory side of things. And least favorite anatomy oh my gosh, that was a killer for sure.
Speaker 1:You preach into the choir here. And last rapid fire question favorite Zupa-Dupa flavor.
Speaker 2:Okay, now, you did send me these questions beforehand, holly, and I'm so sorry. I actually had to google Zupa-Dupa flavor, no, and I've picked out orange because I think that would be something I liked. But I'm so sorry, I have not tried them.
Speaker 1:That is fun, I think. Can I give you some homework in going on my path of Zupa-Dupas because they are life-changing. I reckon I pump five Zupa-Dupas oh, they're so great and I can tell you orange is the last one left in the packet.
Speaker 2:Okay, good to do.
Speaker 1:Personal preference, though Personal preference, but look, I think rapid questions went well. I think we'll keep it around. You've done very well, taylor. If anyone is listening to this and they want to get in contact with you, they want to see what you're doing over on TikTok. They want to just learn a little bit more about you and what you're doing. How can people get in contact with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my handle is just my name, Cielo Dimic, which I can appreciate. You probably don't know how to spell, but go read my name in the Spotify. I'm sure you'll have that off. But yeah, so TikTok is probably the best way. And then I've got my email address as well in my bio and a few other things. I'm a website to come, so let's watch the space area. But yeah, feel free to reach out to me too.
Speaker 1:Incredible. I will pop the link to your TikTok in the show notes for people who can head straight over there. I think people will probably be listening to this midway through and probably doing a search up of your name beforehand, because you're sharing some wonderful, wonderful things. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. We made it with our adaptability and our accommodations we've made, and I'm just so appreciative. I've learned so much and I hope that everyone listening does too. But thank you so very much for coming on the pod.
Speaker 2:Aw, thanks for having me, holly, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Like I said at the start of that app, sela is an absolute legend. If you are not following her on TikTok, please go and follow her on TikTok. And, as I also said in the interview, if you don't have TikTok, it's worth downloading it just for Sela. But thank you again so much, sela, for coming on the app. I've got so many great episodes coming. I'm recording another four interviews this coming Friday.
Speaker 1:There's just some great guests that have reached out and are wanting to come and share their story on the pod and some others that I've headhugged and down to get some good content for you guys. So I hope you enjoy. But before you wrap it up, stupid fun fact with no relevance to OT is on its way in three, two, one Did you know that huntsman spiders can hold their breath? I do not know how long, for I do not know why they hold their breath. All I know is that they can hold their breath. So take that to your next dinner party and take this podcast recommendation to your next dinner party to share it around with all your OT friends or your other allied health friends who ever wants to listen.
Speaker 1:I think there's value for all for an episode like this with Sela. Like I said, stay tuned. Some great episodes coming soon and some more exciting announcements, but I appreciate you. I can't even speak to wrap it up. I appreciate you guys so much. I just also hit 2000 followers on Instagram and that makes me so happy. Thank you, thank you. Thank you everyone for your support. Goodbye.