This weeks episode is incredibly vulnerable for returning guest Liv. We dive into Liv’s current burnout, professional exhaustion and the emotional toll it can have on even the most seasoned therapists. It's a journey of self-discovery, and the sometimes painful process of setting boundaries.
I am so appreciative to Liv for being able to share this part of her journey with me, and I hope this raw chat brings some form of solace and support for any OT who has, or is, experiencing burnout.
This weeks episode is incredibly vulnerable for returning guest Liv. We dive into Liv’s current burnout, professional exhaustion and the emotional toll it can have on even the most seasoned therapists. It's a journey of self-discovery, and the sometimes painful process of setting boundaries.
I am so appreciative to Liv for being able to share this part of her journey with me, and I hope this raw chat brings some form of solace and support for any OT who has, or is, experiencing burnout.
G'day guys and welcome to Holly the OT podcast. My name is Holly and I am an occupational therapist looking to create a judgement free zone for all OT students, new grads and early year therapists. Join me as I give my honest opinions on the highs and the lows and the ends and the outs of being an OT. Before I start today's episode, I'd like to acknowledge the Wujak Nongar people who are the traditional custodians of the land. This episode was recorded G'day guys. Welcome back to another episode of Holly the OT podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. I really appreciate it. Today's episode is an absolute beauty. Like I say for all episodes Again, I will never not intro them otherwise, but today's episode is a wonderful. Live, who has been on the podcast before. If you haven't listened to her episode, definitely go and check it out. It will be linked in the show notes, but live is back and I'm not going to give too much away as to what we're going to be talking about today. I will let live do all the talking, but it's a really open, vulnerable, honest chat that I think a lot of you will resonate with. So please stick around for that episode. Before we get into that chat, though.
Speaker 1:Let's do my highs and my lows for the week, as I like to do. My high for this week is I have started learning to surf again. I was trying to learn when I was younger. When I was younger, younger, I got a lot of lessons and then I stopped. And then I started again and then I stopped. If you go too long in between surfing and you don't practice it and you never actually perfected it, you're basically starting from scratch all over again.
Speaker 1:I understand the surf theory, but my body is back at square one. It's honestly been so fun. I love learning new things, I love doing things again and just yeah, surfing brings me so much joy. Being out in the ocean brings me so much joy, so I am just stoked to be doing that. So that's my high. My low is that it's getting cold. It's so, so cold. I feel like if you went back and listened to every podcast episode between, I'm going to say, like April and October last year, I probably complained about the cold in every single one of them. I'm not a cold gal. I don't like being cold and I don't think anyone should ever be cold. We should all be warm all the time. So I'm not really vibing that the water is getting colder and the breeze is getting colder, and yeah that's my issue.
Speaker 1:But that'll do enough about me and all about live, let's get into it. Today's podcast guest is the wonderful live. Live has been on the podcast before and is one of my favorite favorite guests I've had. If you haven't already listened to her episode, I'm going to link her last episode in. I should have researched what number it was, but instead you're going to get a link because I don't remember what number her episode was.
Speaker 1:But Liv is here today to talk about a pretty hard conversation for people to have, and I just want to read out the message that Liv sent to me, if that's okay, liv, just before we get into it, just to sort of give a bit of context into what today's episode is. So Liv sent me a message a few weeks ago and it says girl, I'm in the midst of some pretty cooked burnout. I love that you lose the adjective cooked it is my favorite but I'm in the midst of some pretty cooked burnout. I was thinking maybe it could be good to have a big vulnerable chat whilst I'm in the thick of it. We so often hear from people who have come out of the other side, but possibly could be valuable for people who are also struggling to feel a little more seen Now.
Speaker 1:Of course I'm down for this chat, but I think my favorite part of that message, liv, was that while you were in the thick of some pretty cooked burnout, you still had other people and how you could help other people at the forefront of your mind, which I think says a lot about you as a person. And I won't say I'm excited to this chat. I mean I am because I think it's going to help people. But I'm obviously feeling sad that you are feeling the way you're feeling and things aren't going so well for you. But I just want to let you know how appreciated it is that you are willing to talk in this time. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you. That's just boosted by ego. The funny thing is, I suppose, like I am so reflexive, it's one of my biggest strengths that I have. I'm sitting here listening to that now and I'm thinking like girl, you're in the middle of burnout, you need some rest. Why are you adding more to your plate?
Speaker 2:But I think it just says, or it speaks to the fact of, particularly when I messaged you, my brain was not in a place where it could turn off in any way and I was not only trying to keep up with my personal life, my professional life, but then also trying so desperately to fix everything that I was like I've got to do a podcast interview.
Speaker 2:I've got to line up all these interviews for any job Take on clients. I've got to get real characters. And I just went into like almost like damage control and very valuable in some ways, and I'm really glad I did, because now I'm in a good space where I can talk about it with a lot of more clarity. But at the time when I messaged you, I'd had supervision with my stream lead and my supervisor as well, and I had chat with our big boss at the company and in every conversation I've had I just seemed to dance so like just in every way. I was just trying to fix the situation so desperately and sometimes you just need to sit with it rather than trying to fix it.
Speaker 1:You're such a practical, resourceful person. I feel like your immediate reaction is to fix and what can I do? What can I do? But we spoke a little bit off air before we recorded. Off air sounds weird. This isn't a radio interview before I started recording. And, yeah, you spoke about how sometimes you've just got to go through it and, I guess, ride the waves in a way, but I guess, before we can sort of unpack that, we sort of need to know how you got here, because six months ago we six months ago we had a really great chat on our podcast. You were doing some really, really wonderful things. You were busy, though, and I think in your personal life you were busy. In your work life you were busy. You're building a house. You're doing a lot of things. Give a little bit of a rundown from that interview that we've had and to now, what's been happening in your life.
Speaker 2:I would say and again reflecting on where I was that time, I was burnt out. Then it's pretty realistically, at the end of the day, a bit of a cave. Yet I was definitely burnt out then, probably since then. You're right, we've we're building a house, the block is still at the same place it was, but we actually were almost about to be kicked down of our rental, which is directly opposite the block that we're building on. So it was perfect. But the landlord actually decided he wanted to sell. So we're going to get kicked out. We're going to have to move and try and find a different rental. There was no rentals in the town at the time, so that was, you know, one of the stresses.
Speaker 2:It was a bit unwell. We had Christmas, just everything, and we had to do a lot without the Emily's, myself and my partner, from lots of different angles, but we were our whole month off that we had over Christmas we were go go go.
Speaker 2:I don't even think we spent a lot of time on that. And then I came back in January and I was like it's, no one wants to see you in school, holly. So my KPI's will blow. And, as we were talking about before, off there, the terribuse In the weeks leading up to Christmas, I did 10 billable hours over my KPIs per week For five weeks straight. I'm pretty sure it was four of our come, so that realistically, I added more than an entire extra work week.
Speaker 2:If I think about it now, I was like I was getting up at six o'clock in the morning, walking the dogs, starting work at seven, working a full day until like eight o'clock or whatever, sharing, sleeping, repeating, and I just had no time for me. I had no time for anything and I was not pressured into doing that. I was very well supported by the organization that I worked for. They were checking on me all the time and they she was okay, but I was just going hammer and tong. Now I can realize that I was feeling very overwhelmed and over compensating to try and make myself feel better about that In that short term, try and make myself feel better and do whatever it could take to make myself feel good for a fleeting moment. But once that fleeting moment passed, I felt worse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd love to talk about, I guess, that coming back from January, like Christmas holidays and you mentioned that you had four weeks off, which is, I would say, longer than average, what most people would have, and you still said you will go, go, go all of those days, and I don't think there's many people who, over the Christmas holidays, don't have a pretty hectic schedule. If you manage to do not a lot, please let me know how. Because it is socially emotionally. There's lots happening over Christmas. Everyone deals with family things and emotional things very differently, but there is always so much socially happening. There is very, very limited rest. It might be rest from your work occupations, but every other occupation is still pretty much in full swing and I find there's probably a lot of people that would come back from Christmas holidays telling themselves I feel so refreshed and I'm ready for the new year without having had a proper break. Was that sort of what you experienced Not having that full time to switch off, do you think?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And the benefit of working from home, you know, 90% of times is that you have control of your hours. But when you're in a little state, when you're not drawing boundaries and you're not sort of having really clear expectations of when work finishes and home life starts, I know that I was turning my computer on to check my personal emails. I could have done that on my phone. There's absolutely nothing wrong with me taking my personal emails on my phone. But I was taking my work computer on consciously so I could check and prepare myself for how many emails I had coming back or for how many boxes I had to put out to give back. So even though, like yes, obviously I had a lot going on personally, I still had not detached from work across that time. And I would say the next time I do take annually, especially from such a significant period, I'll be handing my laptop in, I'll be handing my work for an even true someone that's not me and who has better boundaries it's place than me, because I don't want that temptation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's the temptation that can be. Some people just can't switch that temptation off and you've got to almost remove the opportunity. I know on the weekends I will turn Gmail off my phone because I will just check. No one sends me an email on the weekend, but my brain is constantly telling me just check your emails, check your emails to prepare yourself for the week, and you're not getting that switch off time just on a weekend. So I imagine if that was what you're experiencing, that whole four weeks you had off there was no time for you to really switch off and I guess digress away from work and have that time.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And even if I hadn't, even if I had done that, like I had a hand of my work plan in and handed my laptop in, I was reflecting so much on the different reports that I've written, all the different outcomes I was hoping for with clients, that like I think I've never walked my car that and I'd be thinking like I wonder what that wheelchair is happening, what's happening with the wheelchair? It hasn't been approved yet. Like, have the family heard that? And so my brain was just ticking, ticking, ticking, ticking and I was never catching myself and thinking like, hey, doesn't matter, right? So I wasn't. Like even when I was engaging, I suppose, in more of my daily occupations and things that are quite meaningful to me, it was permeated by this stress and this constant reflection on work.
Speaker 1:Where do you think that comes from? I only ask because I know for myself I have a very high, I would say, perfectionism of wanting to have really great outcomes for my clients and I find sometimes that keeps me up at night wondering have I done the best job for that client? Did I leave something out of that report, like I know that's where it comes from for myself. Is that what you experience as well, or is it more of like a you didn't have the support in the workplace to sort of cover up and cover for you while you're gone, or a bit of both, like where do you think it comes from?
Speaker 2:A little bit of all of the above Yep In so many ways. But I would say like I cannot speak hard enough with my employer and I'm so so well supported. But what I was doing at the end of last year, and probably for the whole of last year, realistically I was very determined to be whatever and whoever I thought the person in front of me what to say. So, whether that be a client, one of the therapists who was a little bit more casual, one of the therapists who had all the answers, I would mold myself into that Absolutely A really strong neurodiversified learning practitioner.
Speaker 2:When it's not really my strength, I'm still really learning in that area. I would kind of put this mask on and being like I'm exactly what you need, I know all the answers, I've done all the research, I'm literally the one person that you need. And I think towards the end of last year I was doing the exact same thing, even in supervision, turning around and being like, oh no, I'm reflecting on this, I'm drawing boundaries, I'm saying this and I was putting this impression of myself out there and I was working so hard to keep up that charade that it was just adding to the overall load in general and I think that, coming back from leave, I just don't think I had any need to keep going anymore, and I think that that was where I just crashed and burned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you and fast forward. So that would be. You came back from leave. What are we now? A start of March. You messaged me about three weeks ago when you were in the thick of it. What was life looking like for you when you sent me that message? And you said I'm in the thick of burnout. Burnout presents so differently for everyone else, but how did you know? You were burnt out Monster headaches Not.
Speaker 2:My favorite thing to do is to walk my dogs and I wasn't doing that. Again, it comes back to the fact that I was being so reactive with, I suppose, my self-care or my meaningful occupations and things like that. Like I was like no, I love crochet, or I love sewing, so I'm going to go add an extra three hours to my day of crochet or sewing and keep thinking to myself about how, like, what's my next project? How can I do more of this in the week? And it was just to add more and to constantly have my brain ticking about what's next? What else can I do? Because the more that I added, I would sort of get that temporary little spike in doping. And then, after you've finished or I go to bed or whatever.
Speaker 2:I couldn't and I wasn't sleeping, Even not remembering drives, like going on a drive. I just think like I don't even know how I got here. I don't know what I listened to. I put podcasts on. I have to listen to it again because I couldn't take any of that information in. And I did take two days of mental health leave, which was great. Like the whole time I was cleaning the house and I was like washing the walls. It's doing like an end of lease clean on my house Because I was like, well, if I'm going to take some time off, it's got to be productive, and I'm like there would have been no issue in me laying on the couch for two days and just letting my body physically rest, and I will show you a photo.
Speaker 2:And this happened at the end of I think it might have been the word after I messaged you, and a preface is that I've only ever had like all of the reactions to like Kiwi fruit. Once I had a little little rash on my legs and it was never even confirmed if that was it or not. It was just like, well, this is the only thing that was different, so it could be this. And then this is what it started off as and I was a bit like, oh, what's this? And then by the next day we could progress to this. Oh no.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I ended up having to call the ambulance because I couldn't breathe. Yeah, I've never had an allergic reaction in my life and I know that that's not very good podcasting show. If you have a photo, I for the view of it. My eyes are swollen, shut it. It actually with the amount of swelling in my face and neck, it probably looks like I'm about 20 kilos per hour, Like it's just it was just such a big reaction to my body to have, and there was nothing different in my diet.
Speaker 2:I didn't have a bug bite, there was nothing like that. I genuinely just think I was so overwhelmed and my body was just so depleted that potentially I had something that my body didn't agree with very much. But I just went into this overdrive of a response I think an immune response that just took me out massively and I was just. I think for me, I was just. I think for me, I was just. I think for me it was. It was a physical reaction, but there was so much shame attached to that. It was almost like I've been able to push this down, I've been able to keep ahead of it and finally my body was just like absolutely enough, you can't do this anymore. And I had to really really come to terms and I'm still coming to terms with the fact that I can't, or I couldn't, keep going in that moment.
Speaker 2:And a brilliant podcast I listened to recently when I was doing a 10K run on one of my days off because you know, it's just what I needed to do at the time was one of the imperfect episodes about Osher.
Speaker 2:Osher Ginsburg was talking and he was saying that there's an expectation that when you hit rock bottom, you bounce back up, and I think that that's what I was trying to mirror. I had recognized that I wasn't being outlawed and I was like no, no, no, I'm taking two steps to combat this and make myself better and be a better therapist and learn from this and share my experience with others. So no one else has to experience this and no one else out there has to has to go through this either. But in the episode he's talking about that when you do hit rock bottom, so many of us just keep on dragging along, we hit the bottom and we stay at bottom for a long time until we actually seek some assistance or start potentially even like building some steps to get up from there. And I think that first step up off the bottom for me was actually admitting and starting to be okay with the fact that I'm not okay.
Speaker 2:I'm probably not going to be okay, for a little while, but I will be and I have the supports that I need to move through this.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think that's so important to reflect on that, just because you get to the bottom, you don't just get up straight away and everything doesn't bounce back and be all rosy and happy days. And we see, and I think this is why this conversation we're having is so valuable, because we, as therapists, if someone asked us, you know, write an information booklet on how to cure burnout or how to fix burnout or prevent burnout, whatever like we all know what is in that booklet, we all know the advice we give, we all know what we would say to ourselves. But when you are in the thick of those emotions and when you are in the thick of that physical response to burnout, you can't just do a bit of self-help and get out of it.
Speaker 1:You cannot, and I think it's incredibly brave that you've been able to just say that out loud. Like I imagine that is really quite hard for you to just admit that it has gotten to that point and to the point of physical reaction and to the point of feeling so overwhelmed. And, yeah, I just think it's really important to highlight that, yes, prevention is better than cure and yes, we know all the things to do, but just because you're in it doesn't mean that you can do all those things as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do you know what? Prevention? It's an interesting word because I think that where we are now, without understanding of burnout, I think we're targeting it at the wrong level. We're targeting it at new grads. We should not be targeting this at new grads. We shouldn't be targeting it at students. We should be targeting this at children coming through the school system and teaching them how to recognise their emotions and process these feelings and set boundaries. And this is obviously something that's so, so big and you know the profession you're going to do so much and you don't know that a six year old's going to end up being an occupational therapist, and this is also. This actually comes from another episode of the.
Speaker 2:Imperfects from Lailstone.
Speaker 1:I love the.
Speaker 2:Imperfects oh my God. It just like solves all my problems. But it comes from the fact that I was listening to her talk about how you know you do need to parent yourself first and you do need to acknowledge, like, where all these feelings come from. And if I take it all the way back when I was 13, 14, 15, all the way through high school, I would have this credible standard of the work that I would do, the friendships that I would have, the fact I wanted everyone to see me, I wanted everyone to know that I had value and I would be putting so much and trying to be the best student in maths for this particular day that I could be, be the best friend for this person that I could be, and that was always molding and shaping and reinventing myself on a daily basis to try and fit what I expect or what I thought other people wanted from me.
Speaker 2:And I've every probably six months, I would end up in the wellbeing officers office bawling my eyes out, just absolutely bawling my eyes out, like inconsolable. And then I would the next day I would go and apologize and I'd be so embarrassed and I would keep pressing everything down. And this has been a pattern for a long, long time. So if I look at it I'm like this is an Olivia Biotin that's burnt out.
Speaker 2:This is Olivia the tall girl who was incredibly insecure and didn't address her emotions, didn't even know how to acknowledge or process or even start to be okay with her emotions. And this is 12 year old Olivia, popping out and kind of reminding me at this age that I need to be gentle to her.
Speaker 1:What sort of things do you think? I guess you could look at it from the lens of what would 12 year old Olivia have needed, but also, what can we do for all of the children who we are supporting? What sort of things do you think would have been valuable for you back then to create that positive sense of self and not feel that need to suppress those emotions? What sort of tools are we talking here?
Speaker 2:Honestly and I can't say for sure, but for me, I think that seeing the people that I idolized and I idolized every single person around me because I saw everyone is better than myself.
Speaker 2:But I honestly think that knowing that it wasn't just me that was having tough time would have been so valuable.
Speaker 2:And knowing that we all feel angry, we all feel sad, we all feel insecure, we all have times where we don't feel like we're enough or we don't feel like the version of us showing up at that moment is the version of us that everyone else needs.
Speaker 2:And I think that just knowing that that wasn't just me and that wasn't just this isolated experience that I was having, I think that would have been so, so valuable. And, potentially, now that we do see a lot more kids sharing their feelings, accessing mental health services and a lot more parents who are comfortable with their children sharing and showing authentic emotion we might not have, we might be raising a generation of kids who are so much more emotionally intelligent and have those emotional literacy skills I just never did. For me, it was like you cry, don't cry, you feel angry. Don't feel angry, you feel happy, don't be arrogant. And that's not like I'm saying that was anyone, person or any one situation that made me feel that way. That was just my insecurities and my impression of the world and how that compounded for me to feel.
Speaker 1:And when they're not normalised conversations within classrooms or within friendship groups or sporting groups or whatever it might be like. They weren't conversations that we were having during our schooling years and I think hopefully now we see so many negative things about social media and about the internet, but hopefully with the power of social media, these conversations might become more accessible for younger children if it's not happening directly within their circles. I'm hoping that within the wider community of social media and the internet, that people will find their ability to fit into those groups and have those conversations be really, really loud and not just a once a week well-being conversation within a classroom. That's just ticking a box, like I hope it becomes embedded into everyday conversations. I have a little side story to tell you and I think the listeners might find this one sort of interesting about what you said about shared experience and how valuable it would be knowing that other people are sort of experiencing the same things.
Speaker 1:I went to a it was like a Pilates wellness sort of day a few months ago and we were doing a Pilates activity first and then there was a little bit of like a mental health sharing experience.
Speaker 1:Then we're doing ice bars and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I'm quite an insecure person and I know I come across quite Ladi Dar, whatever it might be, but I compare myself to everyone I meet and this girl walks in and she was gorgeous and she was so energetic and she had the coolest clothes and she had the coolest bag and she was so good at Pilates and she was making people laugh without being arrogant and I was like, wow, I want to be this girl.
Speaker 1:And then we got to our circle where we were sharing and everyone was sharing their thoughts and she shared that she had crippling social anxiety and she almost canceled coming to this class three times and she sat in her car for 45 minutes beforehand and she's been rehearsing what she was going to say because she was so anxious. And I just thought that is the textbook example of just because people look like they have it together and just because people look like they are so confident doesn't mean that they do and doesn't mean that they aren't experiencing the same things we do. And I think it really hones into what you were saying about how everyone in that group having that conversation probably felt a little bit the same way about this girl was incredible and how validating it was to know that she's thinking the exact same things we're thinking, and I know that's such a niche thought, but it's the power in sharing and the power in knowing and the power in being okay with having these vulnerable conversations.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think today I woke up and I was like I've got to prepare for this podcast. I've got to prepare for it, I've got to listen to my own interview that I did with you and I've got to make sure that I don't say anything that contradicts what I said there, and I might need to have a little transcript of everything I said. And then initially I didn't even listen back to that because I was like I've got an annoying voice. I was thinking all these different things like giving myself all these reasons not to. And then I got to it at the end of the day when I was about to play it and I was like, no, what am I doing with? Like you're coming on to have an authentic conversation and to share how you're feeling, and if that's clunky, that's clunky because burnout's not linear.
Speaker 2:None of these.
Speaker 2:None of any of our mental health journeys are linear.
Speaker 2:And me coming here and trying to sort of make this sound good and make this appealing for a bigger audience, it's always counterproductive to what I'm sharing anyway and I've actually really, in that story, just told I feel like that all the time.
Speaker 2:I definitely don't present like that. I always need to be the loudest in the room, I always need to be wearing the brightest clothes, I always need to have something special that brings people to me and I think that I think over the past couple of years that has pulled back a little bit and that's potentially like you know, covid you weren't out there all the time. You really had to be a bit more comfortable with being yourself and in COVID I was mentally a threat when I came out of COVID and I was back around people and I can look at it now and realize that social anxiety. But I was doing that in overdrive and I was, you know, trying to make myself special, make myself the center of attention, make myself valuable to everyone, and I did it extra and I think that that's probably contributing now to these feelings of burnout because I just over corrected so much coming from that, and then now I think that I'm just experiencing all the ramifications from that in that way.
Speaker 1:And I think it's so valuable and like, like recognizing that the burnout you're experiencing doesn't just come from the last two weeks or the last month or the last annual leave that you had. Like, if we're not addressing burnout regularly and proactively, like these things can trickle on and something that happened three years ago can still have a negative effect on your wellbeing and your regulation if you don't address it. And I really really validate with your comment on not validate is that the word Validate, resonate, resonate. If my mum's listening to this, she always says I get words so wrong. Anyway, I really, really resonate with your comment about needing to be needed and needing to be wanted by different groups of people.
Speaker 1:I feel like yourself, have a lot of eggs in a lot of baskets and try to do everything and be something to everyone, when in reality that means I'm being nothing to myself, because I am trying to do everything for validation from other people. And I think it's great at the same time, because I think it keeps things exciting and there's always something new happening and there's always new people to talk to and learn from. But at the same time it leaves very, very minimal time for switch off and downtime and that rest and recharge which is so, so important for burnout and managing burnout. And I know you mentioned before as well that you were a really reflective person and I often think that reflective people doesn't necessarily make them the best at sort of managing their own wellbeing. It's just you're aware of everything that you need to do and it's contributing to your wellbeing but doesn't mean you know exactly how to action. That as well.
Speaker 2:And the journey that I've been on with reflection as well has been an interesting one, because in uni, if I went to back, like we're back now, and had a look at all of my reflective pieces that I did, it would have been, and I can guarantee you reflection was a tool for me to criticise myself and, you know, get away with it. It was constructive. I was always reflecting on something and picking faults in what I was doing and that was a tool for me to just be unkind to myself and really not acknowledge any of the positives. But because it was a tool that we use within the practice, I was doing the right thing. You know what I mean and I think I've had a lot of time to think about my wife over the last few weeks and for so many reasons, and I do think that you know the fact that I did do a different course before OT and, you know, ended up graduating a little bit later, and some of the feedback that I've had.
Speaker 2:When I first said to people in my life I said, oh, when I was in high school I wanted to be a nurse, and they're like, oh, I think you're better than that. You know you can, you can do something better. And I was like, for one thing, nurses are amazing, we're free profession is amazing and every profession is valid and important Absolutely. And I don't I don't like that comment, but I internalised that and I always thought like, well, I've got to be better. And OTs are such a needed profession, especially, you know, with the introduction of the NDIS and especially the Neal childhood space. And I think that I put so much of myself and it's not just the four years that we did OT, it was the three years that I did my other course for and all of my time in high school trying to get a score that would actually get me into the health field and I spent so much of my time investing in being an OT that I didn't allow myself to be anything outside of that and I wanted to be the best OT for every single person and probably coming back from leave I was able to be a little bit more objective and turn around and say I'm not the best OT for this person call XYZ, and that felt inauthentic to myself, because I have to be the best, I have to be the one who everyone wants to see. I live in an area and work in a home which has got lots of weight lists, especially in the intervention space. So I do think that my decision making with OT and how I've actually started to practise has been influenced by my need to be needed and I've gone to OT, to early intervention in a rural area with a massive weight list because that's me all done.
Speaker 2:And now, acknowledging that this isn't sustainable and I want to be more than just an OT, it feels like I'm breaking up with this part of myself that has been like my core reason to keep going, and it's like my whole identity is changing. I know that that's for the better, because it allows me to set boundaries and have more money in my life other things that are important but it still feels like I'm doing the wrong thing and it feels like I'm going to let everyone else down and it feels like everyone else is watching me. And then I say, oh, you're screwing up the life. You need to be there for us, you need to be doing this, and that's like that spotlight effect hey, no one else is thinking about me, but in my brain everyone is waiting for me to fail.
Speaker 2:And when I do say, hey, I really can't be this, this. I really have to be more. It's like the guys say, oh, I knew you were going to do that. And it's shit, because the rational part of me knows that that doesn't matter and that anyone of the chairs got me. It's going to be like, yes, girl, like, set those boundaries, do the things you love, like you know, do what makes you happy. But this little crev-al-in in my head is just saying no, no, no. You need to keep on this path. You need to be this amazing OT who everyone needs and everyone wants, and that's like. You can be an amazing OT separately. You can be what some people need, but you can also be the wrong fit or not the right fit for other people, and that's totally okay.
Speaker 2:And people can phase out of your service. People can not like the way you practice. That doesn't mean you shit.
Speaker 1:And I feel like you made a comment about how you feel inauthentic to yourself and it sounds like maybe you just haven't truly found the authentic version of yourself, and I don't mean you specifically.
Speaker 1:Well, I sort of do like that, I'm telling you but I think it happens to a lot of people, like we think we're going against ourselves, we think we're going against what we believe and what we've done for so long. But maybe that's just because we weren't really being authentic. No one is meant to serve so many people. I mean this literally, in an OT sense and then as a worldwide sense as well. Like we are not meant to be everything to everyone, and I think it's a bit of an unlearning process of you.
Speaker 1:Know, it's okay to say no, it's okay to not do everything, it's okay to say no to a referral, say no to a social event, say no to things. That's okay. And by doing that you're breaking down those walls and you'll be in your authentic self, because when you don't want to do something, you don't have to do something, and that's just so much easier said than done. Like, I know that comes from a place of privilege to be able to say that, but it's yeah, it's an interesting construct of yeah. Well, who are we authentically Like? What are we really meant to be doing?
Speaker 2:And also what do we mean by authentic? I think as well is another conversation to have, because it's like human beings are valuable. We all have times in our lives that I think we can look back on and be like, oh, that was not a good version of me, or I didn't handle that situation well or could have learned a lot more prior to going into that situation. I think that takes away one of the core parts of being a person and being a person working in a person's industry. We have the benefit of being able to change and I don't know why I'm holding myself to account and saying like you're being inauthentic to the person you've always been. I haven't always been the same person. If I allow my families and my clients and my friends and everyone around me to grow and change, why don't I extend that to myself?
Speaker 1:It's a good question. It's a wonder why we're so hard on ourselves. I think Like it's. Why are we our toughest critics? Why, you know, we're so kind and so empathetic and I say we for pretty much every OT that is listening. The empathy that we extend to everyone around us is infathomable, but why can't we show that same love and same care to ourselves? And it's, again, easier said than done, but I just wish we were all a little kinder to ourselves and OT ourselves sometimes and really got in touch with that balance. And I see a strong thinking face has just come over you there, Liv. I'm wondering what have I just said that's warranted that face?
Speaker 2:It's just funny because and this is again it just speaks to the fact that I am in a very, very wonderful working environment who are incredibly supportive of me. But I was having a look at you know, we've all got our PD budgets for the year and I went to Thank you. I think it was in our weekly wrap that we have at the end of the week and my big boss had put in there the Thrive Signature Program from the Mindful OT and basically I'm going to read it out because it's like she made it.
Speaker 2:For me, she was like Olivia bringing a course out just for you. This course has been purpose built for OTs who are preoccupied by thoughts of not being with us, Feeling frustrated, overwhelmed and emotionally drained, yearning for a sustainable and fulfilling career, wanting practical techniques to support health and well-being, curious about how OT framework would be applied to the concept of stress, wanting to proactively protect themselves from being announced and driven to making a difference by helping their clients achieve solid political outcomes. And I applied for that with my PDE budget and work was like. I think that's a fantastic investment for you, but for an OT, I start that this week Amazing, I think. Probably the last two weeks I have been a lot more chill with myself, but I've also shown up to all points and I've kind of prefaced decisions with being like we're not at my best.
Speaker 2:I'm not feeling 100% and, if anything, that has actually led to better clinical outcomes, rather than showing up and putting this facade on.
Speaker 2:And it goes back to exactly what I was saying about, you know, being this person who's almost like an idealistic version of a human being. I think that having these more vulnerable conversations and admitting that I'm not okay, I'm struggling, this is what's going on. It's actually allowed for more of their connection with clients, and that lived experience approach has been so, so valuable and I just thought, oh, no, no, I've just got over a hump and I've, you know, I've started to see that there is value in what I'm doing. It's like, no, no, I've changed the way that I've actually been practicing. I've shown people that I'm a human being too and I'm having challenges, and my mental health is on the floor at the moment. And it's exactly what I was saying at the start. That's what I wanted to hear, and it's given me a little bit of a boost and helped me to feel valuable outside of the expectations that I set myself, and can only imagine that like this is going to be something that I implemented to my practice from now on.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I clients don't want a robot as a therapist. Clients don't want someone who is above them or not that we would intentionally give that you know impression across. But if you can show your clients that you are vulnerable as well after you've just had them be vulnerable with you for six months prior to and they've opened up their lives to you and you don't need to tell clients what's going on, but the immediate opportunity to share that relation with your clients and show them that you are human too is only going to strengthen that therapeutic relationship and show them that you are on the same page as them. You are on the same level of them.
Speaker 1:There is no hierarchy. There is no I am better than you, I'm above you, I'm here to help you Like. There's none of that. We're all on the same level. We just know different things and I'm going to share with you my knowledge. We're not above each other and I think that therapeutic relationship can be quite intimidating for some clients and it sounds like you've been able to really break that down and it's a shame that you've had to share with them that you're having a rough time, but I think it can only be a positive in the long run.
Speaker 2:I think it also comes back to the fact that I've been compensating for the fact that I work with kids where I'm not a mum, and I think that that's been a big thing for me. It's that I'm like I don't understand and I don't know and all these strategies are only good in theory and I'm not actually. I have no lived experience of that, but I have lived experience of providing care to others. I have had lived experience of being stressed, being overwhelmed, and I think that, at the end of the day, just because I don't have the exact same experience as someone else, that doesn't mean the support that I provide is invaluable. And I think it comes back to the fact that you ever talk about empathy and we acknowledge that we are empathetic people.
Speaker 2:But true empathy is not sitting there and being able to fully understand from that person's perspective. It's acknowledging that you don't have the exact same life experiences and you can't walk in their shoes. You can just imagine it and you can acknowledge that it would be hard, but you don't know it from their perspective and you just sit with them and support them and provide them with what you can. And when we change our understanding of what empathy means we can have those more authentic and more positive outcomes. So I think, from here, if I'm thinking about like, how is this going to guide me forward, I just think that it is like, exactly as I said before, being kinder to myself, acknowledging when I'm having a rough day and continuing just to make sure that the support that I'm accessing is authentic. It's not a way for me to say I'm fine, Everything is OK, I'm going to bounce back up. It's going to be just saying I'm dragging today. If I was to drag in this week, you know if that means I'm showing up at a five out of 10,.
Speaker 1:I'm still showing up. You're still showing up, that's the key word. You're still showing up. I love that. Liv, what is work looking like for you at the moment, and how are you moving forward on a day to day at the moment? I know you're doing better, but we know it's not no magic fix. What's things looking like for you?
Speaker 2:Five o'clock, my laptop gets shut. Amazing, I don't care about having done my notes. My notes can wait till tomorrow, but my time to wind down from there is done and the best thing is I've got to do it the end of the day. So it's like I'm going to do it. I shut my laptop, so I'm just setting more boundaries with myself and meeting my KPIs.
Speaker 2:I'm not exceeding that and I'm again very wonderfully supported and I'm actually being supported by my Streamlead to review my caseload and to say, like, how am I doing the work that I want to do? Am I providing like for me, early intervention is what I want to do. Even last week I was saying I'm not sure, because I've got some really good rapport with some clients. They're taking costs, but early intervention is what I want to do, and I think, just not being afraid to say no and to redefine what my workday looks like and to make some plans to make sure that, or to kind of redefine what my role looks like in this context. So then, I am doing authentic work of things that I want to do and I'm not going to be able to do that by myself.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I actually need an objective voice to say, well, you've told me you're likely on intervention just because you've got a good rapport with this family or you've hit all your goals with this client just because you've got a good rapport with them doesn't mean you need to continue on. So it is just having, I think, just being supported to know that it's okay to make changes and that's working hours, working days, clients that I'm working with, the type of service that I'm providing, the PD that I'm doing, whatever else it is. But it's like my expectation of what work should look like doesn't have to. It doesn't have to look like that and being okay with that and knowing that it doesn't change my value as a therapist or as a person.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think that's so wonderfully valuable and important and you're just so insightful. I just think it's so wonderful that you're able to give this insight when you're dealing with what you're going through. And I think it all as well comes back to the power and the beauty of a supportive workplace. A supportive workplace isn't always roses and it isn't always going to be perfect, but I think a supportive workplace is, when things do get tough, how do they respond and what supports they put in place and how do they make you feel when you come to them with these challenges and these conversations and I said it last time in our episode and I'll say it again it sounds like you've really hit the jackpot with a great workplace, and I think that seems to be making a great difference for you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I will say and I've been quite honest with them as well in this think of the burnout. I was like I've got to move on. It's not the right place for me. Yeah, and I went into it with other places and they sounded fantastic and they honestly could have absolutely seen it a brilliant working relationship in those environments. But I was just kind of taking it back with how kind my workplace was and how supportive they were with if that was the right thing for me to do. They would support that, if they wanted to make sure that they were able to provide what I needed as well. And to be honest with I had to move on. I've been in the exact same place in 10 months, 12 months, 18 months, whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's an important thing to acknowledge. Obviously, there are workplaces that contribute to people's burnout and there are bad workplaces out there that make burnout more prevalent or maybe last longer, whatever that might be, but the nature of our professions is that even in the best workplaces, you can still get burnt out if you're not putting yourself in your own well-being first. Your workplace might have every single boundary in place under the sun, but that doesn't stop you from going home and checking your emails if that's something that you want to do. So I think it's really great to acknowledge that. Yes, a change of workplace might have fixed the immediate problem, but if you're not doing the work for yourself and you're not sort of unpacking where the root of the burnout is coming from, it will just happen again. So I think that's really, really valuable.
Speaker 1:I also am going to be super keen to hear on how the course with Lisa at the Mindful OT goes, because she's done some really, really wonderful things and haven't actually spoken to anyone that's done her courses. But I've worked alongside Lisa on a burnout project with Claire Batkin at the end of the year and she is just so warm and so welcoming and just super, super knowledgeable in this space. So I think that's going to be a really great thing to sort of hear more about and what your sort of personal experience was. Liv, before you wrap this up, what is next for you? What are you? I know I sort of just asked that question, but what does the next sort of few weeks, few months look like for you, and how are you bringing the good vibes back, bringing the positive, the positive Liv back?
Speaker 2:Wedding on Friday and I'm very full your wedding.
Speaker 1:No, my God, I wish I was like oh, you threw that, you left that one out. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:No, the whole chart would have been that hard, if not. Maybe, if I say it loud enough, I'm not yet engaged.
Speaker 2:Me too, I'm going to say it as well I'm not engaged either, but no, to be honest, it does just the next few weeks really look to kind of exploring more of who I am outside of routine, and that's Jim that's walking my dogs, that's going back to the things that I love spending time with my family.
Speaker 2:I don't want to overcomplicate it, I don't want to kind of over schedule or be too reactive with my strategies, but I want to find a space or even just kind of test the boundaries a little bit on how much I can do and what's too much for me and what's going to take some time to work out. That's going to take some time to figure out, like do I need one weekend a month before I don't even leave my house? Do I need one where I go out and have a couple drinks with friends? Do I need to eliminate alcohol altogether? That's quite for me, and I think that I'm so scheduled and I do want to have a strategy or a clear idea of how that's going to look. And I think that even saying this now, I'm like just go easy on yourself, take it day by day and adjust to what you need in the morning, and that's okay. It's okay not to have a specific strategy. How are you going to get through this. Do what you need, listen to yourself and make time for you.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Liv, thank you so much for coming on, thank you for being vulnerable, thank you for making time for me and just having everyone else at the forefront of your mind in this moment. I know we spoke about that not always being a great thing, but I think it's so valuable to everyone who's going to listen to this episode. I hope the next few weeks, the next few months, continue to add another step to that ladder out of burnout for you, and we'll keep in touch regularly and just sort of checking with how you're going in. Yeah, I am so appreciative of you coming on. Do you have any sort of final words of wisdom or anything else you wanted to sort of sum this episode up with before we wrap things up?
Speaker 2:You've got me on a good day, I will say that. I will say, you know, tomorrow could look really different for me and I could be feeling really shitty and I could be quite low and I could be crying and all that kind of stuff. But I think that this is exactly why I want to have this conversation. And when you're in the thick of this, you are going to have days where you feel okay and you're going to kind of gaslight yourself, thinking, well, if I'm happy today, then I mustn't be burnt out or gaslight yourself. Acknowledge how you're feeling. That's okay to fluctuate. We would allow our clients to have creations in their feelings. So you've got to allow yourself as well. One good day doesn't mean that you're not burnt out, but also just the same one bad day doesn't mean that you're never going to be happy and you're never going to get through it. So I think, if there's anything how I can sum that up, just think be kind to yourself and be okay with not being okay.
Speaker 1:Incredible. She's nailed it again. God, I could just, you could just write like a quote book live, and I just read everything that you'd have to say it's so wonderful, but you know what?
Speaker 2:I would write more out and then I would scribble around and I'd get rid of all the pages and I would. It would take me complete whole year to write five pages because my perfectionism.
Speaker 1:Whereas the off the tongue, just things that roll out of the mouth, are often the most, the most the most authentic and relatable, which is what I always love about listening to you talk live. If someone is listening to this and they would love to send you a message, learn more about, about what they can do to support themselves, or maybe they just want to send send a little bit of love your way. How can they reach out to you?
Speaker 2:Best would be Instagram. I do just have a personal account, but you're welcome to do your follow, have a conversation and look. That can look like anything. So we have a Teams chat. We can have a phone call. I don't mind, but I'm always open to new connections.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you so much again, Liv, for coming on and just being so open and valuable for the community. I think it's been really really wonderful. Thank you so very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's happy to meet you.
Speaker 1:I hope you guys got as much out of that episode as I did while I was recording it with Liv. I just want to say again a huge thank you to Liv to come on and be so vulnerable. It is no mean feat at all and I just think it just shows a true testament to her character that you know she's so willing to come and have conversations like this when she's dealing with some pretty heavy stuff herself. So I hope that is valuable for you now to, I guess, maybe help you prevent that burnout a little bit further or, if you're on the same journey as Liv, just sort of resonate with her vulnerability. So yeah, thank you. Thank you again to Liv.
Speaker 1:Now, before we wrap this episode up, let's do my hi oh, not my hi my fun fact. God, I'm such a rookie podcaster. Somebody take this mic off me. We are doing my fun fact. My fun fact for this week is out of all the animal species on earth, one in four animals is a beetle. Go figure, one in four is a beetle. I guess, I guess it makes sense Like we never we never fight these, these facts. If I say it, it's true, we're not going to try and debunk it One in four animals is a beetle. Save that for your next dinner party. Thank you so much for tuning in and being here and, yeah, I just love the love of this. Talk to you soon, goodbye.