The Language
The Language is a podcast dedicated to the reclamation of Anishinaabemowin. By second language learners, for second language learners.
The Language
L2 Egkinoo'maagejig
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We've both been there - teaching Nishnaabemwin while still learning it ourselves. In this episode, we unpack the L2 teacher experience. When there aren't enough fluent speakers, learners often become teachers, but what does that mean for the language? We share our thoughts, experiences, and a few hard truths about where we are at, and where we need to go.
Learning other languages is a lot easier. I learned some Spanish. I got to like an intermediate level. That was so easy. Relatively, I guess I should say. It was just like, yeah, no emotional baggage. I didn't have to.
SPEAKER_01Um I didn't have to You weren't feeling not Spanish enough?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wasn't feeling not Spanish enough. I wasn't praying to my Spanish ancestors in the homelands of Spain to pick up.
SPEAKER_01Right arm.
SPEAKER_00Right arm.
SPEAKER_01So I I already forget what I said because I not everyone everyone that's listening is at different proficiency levels. I should get better at translating what I said. I think I said, hi everyone, this is the language podcast, is what it's called. Thanks for listening. This is Nigana Vikwa. I think that's all I said. And then I said, Misquanquit, what's your name?
SPEAKER_00And I said Misquanquit Indigenous, my name is Misquonquit, or I'm called Misquonquit. Quad N Dodam, Bear Clan, Wasoxing N Donjaba, and I am from Wasoxing. Some people say Onje N Donje. I don't know why we say N Donjiba or Ndonji, yeah. I don't know why where that ball comes from. Don'jjiba. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um anyway, I said Musquanha, what's your name? Because I am always teaching language classes, and I always and usually you start with the introductions. Obviously, I know everyone's name, and I always say that in class. I'm like, hey Musquanho, what's your name? Yeah, how's it going, Anishna Gigi?
SPEAKER_00Um modus. I'm doing good. Everything's going alright. It snowed. I was down south. Puerto Rico, um, Mineswe went to Puerto Rico, was there for a conference, stuck around for a bit to get some sunshine, and then got back here and there's a snowstorm. So we see you.
SPEAKER_01Um, not much. Yeah, that's it. Same old. Same old. Yeah, gigamewan zha sha. We uh we zogpa gia wabang. We we've been chiwet. So it's it rained a little bit today and we're expecting snow squalls tomorrow. Yeah. Um well let's just hop right into our topic. L2 language teachers, which is can you describe what what does L2 even mean?
SPEAKER_00Um that's the term I don't know, that's the term people use for um an L2 is like a second language. L1 is like your first language, the language you learn as a child. Um an L2 is one, I guess, that you pick up afterwards, maybe not necessarily as a child. Um I don't know the specific, yeah, specific definitions around that. So L2 is basically like second language, um, what people refer to as a second language, essentially not your not your first one, not the one you learn first as a child, but you know, some people learn many as children. Sadly, um we are not those people.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I didn't I just I hear it being used a lot, and in the context, I yeah, I started hearing L2, and I'm like, I guess that's why we are, but um yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a lot sorry to interrupt, there's a lot of like, I don't know, kind of gray gray area around these definitions too, like what is a fluent speaker, what is like a L1 native speaker. Um it's not as cut and dry, I think that yeah, I think there's some more nuance to it that should be acknowledged. Like, you know, technically we're fluent speakers of Nishnabe Mwin, um, but what is fluency, right? And you know, someone can have a first language um that maybe they don't speak anymore and they haven't spoken since they were kids. A lot of um, you know, silent speakers in you know our community, they may be L1 Nishinaabe, but they don't speak anymore because they haven't spoken since they were kids, you know, if they went to residential school, day school, um so they might not be fluent anymore, even though it's technically their their L1, their first language. Anyways.
SPEAKER_01What is a silent speaker?
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't know if that's a you know accepted term in the you know in the discussion on that, but it's something we use to refer to a lot of at least in our context, Ishinaabemuen Ojibwe and Ishinaabe Muen speakers who um, you know, who are L1s who learn the language as kids but um don't speak anymore because of those reasons, you know, because it was language was discouraged. So they understand everything, they understand the language perfectly, but they have a really hard time speaking it, and I think that's where the um the silent speaker or that term comes from. And again, I don't know if it's a uh accepted term, but it's just like what we people tend to use in that slang in that context, yeah. Slang or whatever. Yeah, I saw a really good presentation at the Algonquian conference about silent speakers and this this program these people were doing to encourage and support silent speakers because one of the reasons it's so hard for those people to to speak is because of the like psychological drama of residential school, of day school, of like all sorts of things. So, in order to support those people, um we need more, we need a lot to to support them. And I don't have my notes on me, but I should go back and you know cite the people who did the study and like the organization and whatever. But yeah, they did some work around working with the so-called silent speakers and helping them find their voice again, find their language again, and a lot of that is um I don't know, they had a lot of information on the types of activities they did, but an important thing is the um yeah, the emotional support, having an actual, like, you know, having elders and a therapist or counselor there to support people through the psychological difficulties, emotional difficulties of working with language. Anyways, silent speakers, very important topic.
SPEAKER_01Miguatsky Bajaik do TED Talk, you should say. Well, that was good. I Googled it and it pretty much says the same thing, and it says they sometimes have what linguists call passive knowledge. Receptive fluency without productive fluency.
SPEAKER_00Hmm. I don't know. Yeah. Well, it's important for our context because you know, we're trying to bring back Nishinaabimun, bring back our languages, and if that generation of people who are the silent speakers are able to um speak again, that would be really helpful. That would be really helpful for you know creating language communities again.
SPEAKER_01So we talked about what is an L2. Um I heard a point brought up, a comment somewhere, because uh I had referred to myself as a second language learner, and someone corrected me and said that Nishnabainwind is our first language, which yeah, but am I proficient in it? So no. I think there's maybe like I don't know, like the spiritual side to it, yes. But in practicality, like I never heard it growing up or spoke it. So in practice.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's an important uh point you bring up that you know people don't like we don't want want to refer to our language as a second language, second to English and stuff like that. And I think that speaks to the fact that there's a lot of layers to Nishnabimwan reclamation to indigenous language reclamation that um yeah, that come into play. It's they're these social factors, these um I don't know, social, emotional, psychological factors around perceptions of our language that we're not gonna get um elsewhere if we're not, you know. That's not a thing outside of where we're working in terms of indigenous language reclamation, because there's so much, so much behind it. Like I know we've talked about this on the podcast before, but learning other languages is a lot easier. I learned some Spanish, I got to like an intermediate level. That was so easy, relatively, I guess I should say. It was just like, yeah, no emotional baggage.
SPEAKER_01I didn't have to um I didn't have to You weren't feeling not Spanish enough?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wasn't feeling not Spanish enough. I wasn't praying to my Spanish ancestors in the homelands of Spain to pick up anyway, so I'll shut up. Keep going.
SPEAKER_01Never sound smart in Minnesota. I sound smart.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, not that you didn't you don't sound smart, but smarter. You must be in work mode there or smart mode or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I kind of got into work mode, smart mode. I actually got like a really good sleep last night, which was really good. And plus, you know, like I said, it was I was away for a conference, but I also like it was kind of a vacation, so I took some time off.
SPEAKER_01And so I guess You're not supposed to admit that publicly.
SPEAKER_00No, all I do is vacation. All I do is work hard every day on the language. I'm so committed.
SPEAKER_01In uh tropical destination. Yeah. Um what conference was it again? We already named the other conferences in our last episode. Right. Talk about waves.
SPEAKER_00Oh, right, yeah, yeah. Um, it was the American Studies Association, which it was a pretty huge conference. I didn't do much other than my session, but um a friend of mine asked me to be on a panel. Um the theme of the conference was like the late late stage American Empire, which um is a pretty interesting big topic. But um she asked myself and some other people to get together around and talk about um kind of indigenous immigrant and you know, other experiences under empire and like survivants and things like that. So what that basically meant was talking about how our languages and cultures, you know, we've gone underground under colonial oppression, and um, yeah, that's a common thing, common theme for indigenous people all over the place. So I just talked about what that looked like for me and the language, my community.
SPEAKER_01Wow, no wonder you're real smart today.
SPEAKER_00Just acting all smart lately. I gotta go do something dumb soon.
SPEAKER_01Well, when we're done recording. Stay smart for now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. That might I that might be my limit. This is like there's only so much, right? I think I might have burnt out my uh yeah, my what is it? RAM, the random access memory in your brain, like in a computer. Anyway, see look, I'm already done. I've used it all up.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say it's a smart quota for the day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know, and I haven't even sworn yet. I haven't even like so I guess listen to it later and it's just bleep weep weep.
SPEAKER_01Um okay, so let's get back on our topic. Anyway, I I didn't even say the topic, I just asked you to define a bunch of stuff. Our topic for today is L2, the L2 teacher experience, because I too am an L2 teacher. I'm thinking of that meme. I too and an exceptionally teacher. Um and then one time when this podcast first came out, actually, we did an interview for the Toronto Star, I think it was. There was a section on language revitalization. When I was being interviewed by the reporter for that newspaper, we had talked about me being a learner and teacher at the same time. And she was the first one that was told me that's pretty common across most languages. It made me feel better. And it makes sense actually. I guess I just I'm pretty um Nishnabimwin focused. Um I think it would be beneficial for me to learn more from other indigenous languages, just for things like that. I felt less alone and I was like, huh, what is it? So it's been on my mind a lot. It's happening a lot more. I think for one thing, we just don't have enough L1 or um fluent speakers that can that can take up these positions. Um, there's other issues too that go along with it, but just strictly a numbers game, I don't think for everything that we want to be doing we have enough speakers or young enough speakers maybe. Um so yeah, it's a common phenomenon across all kinds of other languages. I looked it up, especially if you look at places like Hawaii, Hawaii, I think that's how you actually pronounce it, where their language was almost gone, and I believe a lot of it was revitalized through newspapers, um, because they used to have newspapers written in all their languages. So that's what you're doing, right? Documentation is really important. So I think they revived a lot. There was a Hawaiian Renaissance in the 70s with culture, language, everything. Um and they have a lot of really um powerful, successful, I guess you could say, immersion schools in Hawaii. And they're producing a lot of speakers, and a lot of those places are taught by um highly proficient L2 learner speakers. I think there's other languages too, like um Maori. Um, and out uh I can't say it in New Zealand. Ao Toroa, is that how they Aotearoa? Yeah, me much. You got to go to a conference and present, and I couldn't go because I was pregnant. And then well, not bitter about it or anything. Uh Gaelic too. So a lot of languages experience this. So I thought it would be an interesting topic to talk about, and we can go a number of ways with that.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting that I just realized that even my Spanish classes, um, not all of them, but some of the teachers were were not first language Spanish teachers.
SPEAKER_01Why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_00Um, it might be because they've like, I think it's the same for us as people working with Nishinaabe when as learners we kind of know what learners go through, so it might be I don't want to say easier to teach, but that can be an advantage, like knowing understanding what the student is going through, not being uh yeah. So that could be could be how those people got into um got into teaching teaching Spanish.
SPEAKER_01I think that's for myself, that's one of the benefits I myself as a learner can provide when I do teach is that and I'm I'm I usually start off every class or every program, like if we're doing uh like ten week ten weeks of a class or something. I don't know why ten weeks is always the number I get, but if we do ten weeks of a class, I usually introduce myself, I share my background, and I share like what I'm able what my limitations are and what I'm able to provide. And so I always let people know, you know, like you're not gonna get the best language input from me or the best translations. You should always try to that avenue for a speaker. But what I I do feel comfortable in providing is I look at myself as because when we first started, there wasn't a lot happening. Like I didn't even know that you could really become whatever and again, like you said earlier, fluency is kind of like on a scale, like we're all fluent to a lesser degree or a greater degree, so it's not like like I think we tend to think of fluency as you've summited Mount Everest and now you're done and you can go home. Right. And uh at least for myself, like I'll that'll never be true. I'll always be learning, not in a bad way either. I just accepted like I love the language, there's always something to learn, there's always a new way to say things or how to how to improve. But um, yeah, so so a lot of this stuff was trial and error. And I it wasn't until we went out to Oog and met up with the folks in Minnesota. They've got, you know, you can do a d undergraduate degree in Ojibwe language, so they've got they're like, Oh yeah, here's all these verb paradigms, and it's like, oh my god, there it there is a clear path.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So it wasn't until I found those things out that I was that I was really on my way. So that's what I like to share is here's what I wish someone would have told me when I started learning, so I didn't have to do it the hard way. And well, and it's still hard. It's it's not a lot of fun really like doing the work and and that kind of thing. But yeah, being able to walk someone through it and explain it. So I think that's one of my strengths that I have to offer is that I've been in the same shoes as you. Um, and sometimes too, I'll even see other learners ask a fluent speaker or an elder a question, and the speaker is like, I don't know what they're asking me. And I know it, I'm like, oh, it's obvious. Like it's because you know, think of the it's another third person, kind of like a fourth person that actually happened before, and and the learner was like, Oh, and the speaker's like, I have no idea what they just said. But if you guys get it, um you know, it's like, why did you say, right? Like when we obviate, like Gi Wab Mon Nina One, like he saw the man, and then a learner is like, Why did you say one or nina one? And the speaker doesn't even know what they said. Like they're like, What do you mean? I just said he saw the man, like what what are you asking me? And things like that. Um I might be able to answer a little bit better, or I know what they're thinking because I th think the same way, or have had the same questions.
SPEAKER_00I was just gonna add my two cents about the being an L2 in terms of the linguistic research I've done, and that's basically determined what I'm trying to research, and it's as simple as like, you know, us as learners. So we as learners run into common hurdles, um, like obviously, like the quote unquote preterite mode, or as we know them as buns, and that's what I did for my my master's research was look at buttons, the preterite mode, because every single learner of Nishnaabim, when we run into it, it's like why how do we use buttons? What is uh what does this mean? And um fluid speakers, like no, they use it all the time, it's in it's in their speech all the time, and it's um you know, it's a common hurdle for us as learners. So I thought it was important to examine those things. And yeah, that's been super helpful. That's basically what determines what I try to research in in the language, and that's not necessarily the case for any linguistic researcher looking at Nishnabimun, looking at Ojibwe, or any language in general, they're looking at the they're looking at it from more of a linguistics angle. They're like, okay, this language has very interesting syntax or something like that. So they can still examine and talk about the things that are important to us, but when you just you know, when you come at it from a a learner's point of view, you dig into you know what really matters to try and speak the language.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you're approaching it more like what is useful for other people to learn, pass on the language because you're in that same boat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's that's as that's basically it. And also, I think um input from speakers and elders that we work with as well, like they can identify things that um they can tell what some common mistakes that we're you we're we're making as as learners. So that's um it's good to listen to them too in you know trying to determine what to what to look at, what to research.
SPEAKER_01Just to backtrack, um, because I feel like some folks might be wondering can you describe your buns? What do you mean by preterite and buns for those someone that might not know?
SPEAKER_00Right. Um geez, that's hard.
SPEAKER_01Or that's gonna be a whole episode.
SPEAKER_00That's a whole episode. I have to go back to my um presentation notes on it. But yeah, it's a for people who aren't aware, it's this part of a word that. goes on the end of a verb. Um that's really common and it typically shows up as bun in Michelle. So us as learners, we hear like bun on the end of things. So we're like, oh it's a bun. What is the what do the buns mean? What is a bun?
SPEAKER_01I think for like I think for the aver maybe an average person on the res, this is one use. But like when someone passes away and you would add that to the end of their name. And depending on your dialect like here in Rama like my dad has passed some people would say Webster Bun. And then other like Odalwa Daleks would say Webster Bah because they drop the they nasalize those endings I guess is well I don't know. Let's not get into that but well actually Yeah. But that's one use, right?
SPEAKER_00So people might be familiar with that that I do think the most common places that learners run into it is in that sense like on um you know use the bun on a person's name who has passed and also one of the first sentences we learn how to say is on each onish age kid yum bun or onish gay kid yum bun um or gay kid yum bun um asking a speaker how would you say something or other how would you say this how would you say that and there's a bun on the uh on the verb there so you look at it from you know okay identify that there's this bun on the verb and it doesn't really make any sense when you look at the other uses that you might be familiar with like the use on a person's name um and yeah that question the question using it um on each gay gay kid yum bun or gay kid yum bun is in a question and that's in a um in the conjunct mode so you know we're going off the rails here but there's the conjunct and independent off the rails yeah the podcast is we're getting hardcore now talking about this stuff um so yeah I'm already off the rails but this is why you had to do a PhD on it yeah yeah no totally it's not that simple yeah it's not that simple but hopefully your research makes it hopefully the research makes it simple and that's something you know getting off topic again that but that's something that is discussed amongst you know I'm sure we've talked about on the podcast but elsewhere that linguistic research is not accessible to language learners um academia in general not just linguistic oh yeah academia yeah yeah yeah not accessible in many ways not accessible not only can you not get in there but you can't even read the products of it yeah security will kick you out before you even walk in the door just in case someone was wondering what is this guy talking about what is this guy smoking all right what is this guy smoking um why did I start talking about the accessibility oh yeah so for yeah I've researched that stuff but um there's still I still have more work to be done to um to make it accessible to other people I have a fair bit I think with the with the bun stuff because that was like the the uh master's research and like you know present an A tag and did a presentation for Skinner Schnaubim jig and stuff and I'll like share my presentation and notes and slides um with people because I think it explains it a bit better like in an accessible way. But the rest of my you know my dissertation which I just wrote this year well just finished this year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I need to work on translating that stuff or yeah translating it making it making it accessible to learners so anyways that was a side you could also be a teacher yeah I could also be a teacher you could be an L2 teacher like the rest of us right well you know I told you about that job right I don't know if I talked about it on the podcast and starting uh you said you had a interview but that was the last we heard oh I didn't even talk about that oh wow um yeah I got a job at the University of Manitoba I don't start till next fall because I'm doing this postdoc project translating my gram and auntie stories so it's a you know Professor Associate Professor I think that's the official term I don't know official title congratulations oh me good yeah thanks it's pretty exciting also kind of scary but it's a joint position in linguistics and indigenous studies so I will be able to talk about this um you know the linguistic in we'll get a try um but you know talk about those sorts of things talk about the yeah the linguistics of Nishnabimwen or Algonquian languages stuff like that so yeah I will be a teacher I won't be a language teacher probably that you can be an accessible one won't be an accessible one no you know hopefully I will be but yeah I won't probably won't be teaching language they've got their language language program and professors Pat Ningwans is there which is super awesome so I'll be able to hang out with her so yeah we'll be a teacher apparently not starting until next year but well it's a good thing we're talking about this topic then yep I think it's difficult because well there's a couple of issues for myself I only really feel comfortable teet teaching beginner maybe intermediate because that's as far as my proficiency goes anyway. I would like to get to those higher levels but when and how do I do that? Hopefully the the burnout episode we recorded P Joginaging will be released before this. And so I that I think that's a big part of why I've kind of plateaued in my learning is that this isn't even necessarily related to just L2 teachers but just language reclamation space in general but I think part of it is because it's an endangered language and even related to when you're talking about our people and cultures having to go underground underground with certain things. It's not really sustainable. Like I feel like burnout is kind of inevitable. Um so I think that's why that was an important topic for us to talk about because you kind of have to be you have to be careful protect yourself and have have your have your boundaries whatever that may be so I think that's kind of maybe one of the downfalls being an L2 teacher and especially I don't know how you how you say this because you're learning too while you're teaching and I remember I got to a point it would have been the last year I attended Oog which would have been maybe 2017 or something because I got to a point where I felt like I was pouring from an empty cup and I hadn't really been in immersion or learning myself and I would be like on a college campus in a city and someone would ask me how do you say this and I knew I I knew how to say it but I couldn't think of it because I was just rusty and I was like wow this is how elders forget sometimes like you ask them something and they're like I don't know it's gonna have to come back to me. I've I felt like that was starting to happen to me and then that's when I went back to guys the learner because I was like it was difficult because I had come so far in one dialect that was different from that so I had a lot of difficulties um regarding that but I was like I don't care I need to go somewhere where I'm not the teacher for once and a lot of times here I get overlooked or I have been overlooked for different opportunities and I don't know why that why that is one of the things that I've heard is like you're you're too advanced and that's a big problem because now I've plateaued. It's like yeah like if anything someone like myself needs more because respectfully not to found not to sound full of myself but I like I can't be in a class learning numbers, colors and animals. Like that's not an effective I you know I feel comfortable enough with that I need more advanced stuff. I need to learn buns you know and stuff like that. Yeah so at least speaking from experience for myself it's really hard few and far between to find other than like being an immersion but well at least in this area I run the immersion opportunity so I've never really been in a position yet to be a learner at a shkinish naub and jick. I would love that but uh if I don't run it then like like someone needs to run it. Yeah so other than being an immersion so like I can for the most part meet a speaker and speak with them but it'll it'll only go as far as me and the speaker are willing to take it and I've been getting lazy and just like what does that mean? I'll just break into English and then it kind of snowballs. So I think I'm I think I might need to be a learner and somewhere like a Shkandish Navimjick where it's like you know forbidden basically or you would be um not to make us sound real scary but it's like it's kind of rude to go to a a two week program like a Shkandish Navimjick and speak English when everyone has traveled far and gone away from their home and friends and family to only be immersed. So you don't really want to speak English there. So I think I think it's hard and I think a lot of um I don't know if the mainstream education system and the school boards and sometimes often actually even our own leadership and administration really understand what it takes. And so I don't think the mainstream model and a lot of our a lot of our schools on reserve are just replicating the mainstream model of education or they're doing like an add and stir where it's like we're doing the same thing that they do in schools but we're smudging you know and we say a prayer and then the smudge bowl goes back on the shelf and it's you know the status quo. I think that's Dr. Marie Batiste that calls that the add and stir method. So I don't even think a lot of times our own communities, our own people understand what it really takes. I always thought a model like a master apprentice model would be good. Um where and I had this happen to me before when I worked in an immersion classroom for Kenji gay Winteg when I was in the room with the fluent speaker and I was hearing her speak like every day to the kids and it was like oh like I think most of my language actually comes from that one year just being in the classroom with that teacher and being like oh that's how that's used and it was so much easier. Well first it really sucked like I was like the like you know what's going on but the learning curve was steep so that I had started at the end of August and by that March I feel like I could speak as fast as I can in English. Like as the thoughts came to me I could just I could just go. So I always think that model would probably be the best and it's hard to justify that when you have a budget and no one really and the people running the budget or offering the funding don't really understand what it's like on the ground and it's hard to justify having two teachers and then even if you you know just sounding real pessimistic but I'm I want to openly share and hopefully the right people are listening and can implement this in their own communities or workplaces. But even if you do have um support and funding for that it has to be set up properly because I've also seen people that do have master apprentice and um yeah like it's it's like I said like when I'm with a fluent speaker I could go up and and visit with them and speak in the language but it's really easy for me to break into English and be like I don't know what that word and then we just they explain it and then we we kind of for it snowballs and we're it's hard to go jump back into Nishnabin when so I think even when you do have the support or something like that it has to be set up really properly you need training you need like a structure and a and a methodology I know that sounds really but it's to ensure that all of that time and money that you're spending in people is is going to succeed. You know it's just like not every not every learner might be a good teacher and not every fluent speaker just because they can speak they might not you know there's a lot that goes into teaching having the the methodology and the pedagogy um I'm laughing at the word pedagogy because one time a fluent speaker heard that and they thought they were talking about Namokodi Namokaji a dog like a peti no pedagogy that's why I always get I always laugh when I say that word because they're like what is pedagogy but um yeah so it has to be set up there I think there's a way that it can be done and I think there are successful places like I don't know as like Wadu Kadotting as far as Nishnabe went as kind of like the standard for immersion schools for our language. I've never been but I've met quite a few teachers that come out of there that are conversationally proficient, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah that's I was just gonna ask you like where is it where is it being done right and yeah Wadu Kadain would be would be the example.
SPEAKER_01Um the only one I'm familiar with I know there's other immersion stuff going on but I'm not too familiar with it but um uh what was I gonna say um you touched on the fact that there's better ways of doing things you know the standard and the mainstream system haven't been haven't been successful um and the people the people making the decisions aren't um aren't language people right and I'm sure we've complained about this many times on the podcast but um I don't know I think you are an expert so and also that a lot of people listen to this podcast now which is really cool so yeah let it fly let that let everyone know what um that you're an expert and you know what should be done um serious like I'm not gonna say that though that wouldn't be very Nishnave of me you too are extraordinarily humble too humble to the podcast the humble podcast the most humblest podcast if it wasn't clear on our on our episode that just dropped on um I think that was episode season two episode five me Monda and Endamong this this is what we're thinking if that that's what I was trying to get at it's like a lot of people aren't really language people and they're steering the ship and it's like the blind leading the blind out here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah like I don't know say that outright you can say it outright and we know this because we're the language people and we know other language people we know what's going on around Nishnabe King yeah yeah and it's I wouldn't stop I would stamp um I would bang my fist on the table but then it'll make a it'll hurt your listener the listener's ears. Right yeah no testify.
SPEAKER_01So and that's kind of what I was talking about too on that episode when I said like the bar is really low for us it's easy to impress us because not a lot of people speak and or understand the language. So it's hard to vet things and it's hard to to vet people. I think that's where assessment becomes a really good tool that I think we're missing across the board. And I myself was very hesitant to it for a long time at the beginning because like when you were talking about silent speakers like there's a lot of trauma and shame and emotional spiritual issues around language and blockages that prevent us. So assessment is very European thinking colonial and it puts this picture in our mind that we're looking for weaknesses or where we're going wrong or saying things. So I don't know what the antidote is how we look at that from a strengths-based perspective or how we use that for motivation to grow. But I know we did a training session back in the day with Megiza where he taught us all about the ACT fill that's the American Council of teaching foreign languages. He trained us on uh how to create and administer an assess an OPI oral prof proficiency interview. And so I really like that too because that's not really the test you're just recording a five minute conversation in your target language. So it's not like you're sitting down writing an exam or anything. It's still nerve wracking it's like let's just pretend this camera's not here and let's pretend I'm not gonna go back and replay it five years. If you can get that out of your mind. But I uh yeah I really I really like those and I I don't think it's to well it kind of is to see where in areas you're weak but it's not with the intention of tearing someone down because the nice thing about those is that it you also provide guidance moving forward. Here are the areas that you know that you would benefit on and how to how to keep advancing so to speak. All that to say is that in the beginning I was like I'm not interested in assessment like I just want to teach and and pass on the language but the further we go I see that there is a need for it. So we need to be vetting I know a lot of people a lot of organizations, communities, different initiatives are starting to get serious about language and I'm seeing people put together language strategies and hire program managers and what are we going to do? And it's like well first of all you need a way to track and assess your progress and is this program even working? Because if it's not like we need that we need that data like how do we how do we make this let's not waste our time here let's make this work um so I think that's the main thing that that we need to be able to do. So I think assessment is really important. I I know that they I'm pretty well I'm pretty sure they still do the actual OPI with their teachers at Waduka Dotting who are mostly if not all L2 um speakers who are highly proficient and that's just a that's just a part of their their job. I don't know how they implement it and what goes on beyond that seeing a lot of people invest and it's like in which is important but we have to be investing and putting our time and energy into the right things you know?
SPEAKER_00Yep nigwa. So they should listen to you and people like Ojig and you know language people who know what they're doing.
SPEAKER_01That hasn't been my lived experience that's why I work by myself now Oh man this is super sacred there's an eagle flying by right now I'm not even joking. Yeah holy a bald in the city here there's a bald eagle?
SPEAKER_00Yeah bald eagle they usually hang up by the river because they've got nests down there but kind of far from the river this one's just swarming around all sacredly anyway.
SPEAKER_01Sending our pairs up to the crater that people will start listening to us. Yeah holy that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah it is pretty cool there's uh by my old place there was a spot down by the river where you could see their nest and you could even like depending on where you were the angle you could see like there's baby eagles in there sometimes. Yeah it's really cool.
SPEAKER_01To go back this kind of relates to go back to the point where I was talking about burnout I was talking about this potential topic with the friend. They're another L2 teacher and they brought up a really good point about being and this relates to the burnout aspect I think the emotional piece of it that I never really thought of but when you're a really excited passionate learner and then you get roped into teaching because you know for someone like myself is I don't well I know why the language is is so important but like I really want to become proficient myself and I want to be able to pass that on. Because for a long time yeah because if you're it's nice for us to learn the language but if you're not passing it on then what's the point? Like you're just prolonging our language I don't want to say dying but the way that it's going is you're just kind of prolonging it I guess. So the whole point is to pass it on in in whichever way possible is is useful. And I think there's a point in there too so let me get back to that but when you're really gung ho about the language and it's something really close to your heart like this is definitely hard work and we really really care. It's not like there probably is people out there that are really passionate about math for I'm not one of them but it wouldn't be the same if I was teaching math whereas when I'm teaching Nishnave when so as someone that holds this subject matter deeply to your heart you take things personally a lot more it's a lot easier to get hurt over it. You know it's very it's I've noticed it's not just in my class but in other people's classes too you get a lot of interest when a language program or language class pops up how can I take this I'm gonna take this blah blah blah you get a a lot of people enrolling and then as time goes on the numbers dwindle and dwindle and dwindle. I don't know why that that's just kind of common. I've just kind of expected it now. Even though we expect that it still hurts every time. It's like, how come no one else is like, how come people aren't taking this seriously or like how come you know like I worked really hard on this resource. I spent my own time and money doing this thing and you know and it's like how come they is that your cat's feeder? I remember that last time because it sounded like dishes or something. Your little uh cat food slot machine. Anyway Yeah so you take these things to heart a little bit more and I and that might be put the the emotional burnout piece that we gotta watch for that kind of I don't want to say it's inevitable inevitable, but you know it probably is because it's just not the same as teaching you know any old subject.
SPEAKER_00I've seen that with language teachers for sure. And yeah also seen what you mentioned of like numbers going down. I guess it kind of inevitably happens but yeah that would be extra hard when it's something you're so passionate about and believe in. I don't know what it's like these days I haven't been taking the language I took some language classes here at the at the University of Minnesota um when I was when I was there and it's such a good program like it was like I learned so much in those classes and I remember when I first went to one of the classes before I even was going to school there I was like this is an amazing program and they're teaching so much really valuable stuff. Like I remember I took was it the intermediate yeah I took the intermediate classes and you know they were teaching so much in the span of like a year or two that took me like seven years previously to to learn on my own because I just didn't have the resources didn't have there was no classes. And yeah I think at least a couple of years ago the numbers enrollment to that program was really down and yeah that's uh that's a bummer was that after COVID though because I feel like after COVID that's kind of things always change. That was definitely after COVID and haven't talked to Zoe about it this year. I think there's a lot more new students this year which is really good. But um yeah it fluctuates and yeah when it's down and when it's especially when you're the teacher that would be really discouraging or even if even if enrollment enrollment isn't down but if students aren't really invested I know that's been a complaint for some people that um you know they're just doing it for credit if it's like part of their program that uh they need a language credit and they're just doing it to get their credit that would also be very discouraging. So yeah tough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and the flip side of that I think that's what keeps me going is every once in a while or maybe every class you get one student that's like really keen really bright or they're really taking to it and that's those are the students that keep me going. Like that's why I'm able to to keep doing it when I when I find someone who gets it but that being said even when you have a couple of keeners I'm thinking of some of my more recent ones I don't know if they're still continuing on with the language. So that's kind of that's kind of a bummer. I'm gonna toot my own horn here though but Kevin Chilling Ritchie I taught him in the beginning. He's your Padwan he's your yeah yeah no someone was like wow you must be an amazing teacher you know you you you taught Kevin and it's like yeah but also taught like a um kevin is one of those examples where it's like what is that there's this um this phrase or this thing I saw on I think it was like the language nerds on Instagram or something that I truly believe in especially with language learning and it said if you're not willing to learn no one can teach you. If you're determined to learn no one can stop you.
SPEAKER_00Oh that's good stuff right there.
SPEAKER_01That is like a hundred and ten percent true with the language and so he is one example of he was gonna get there with or without me maybe I helped them get there a little faster. But I think he was gonna get there anyway because I also anyway sorry I don't want to interrupt were you gonna before I keep going. No you can keep going I I remember my point and it's just kind of a side note yeah because so I would so I would teach he was in this two year program at the time that I was teaching and you know I had it all laid out over the two years and I remember now I'm just getting bogged down into details. I was teaching preverbs and this here's all these here's how you can modify your preverbs and the different things that they mean and how you can use them. And then you know like a year later I went back to Ooga as a learner and then I realized I was teaching one of those preverbs wrong. I was like oh whoops and I remember actually talking to you about it and I was like oh man I've been teaching that wrong the whole time and um I can't remember you made me feel better about it anyway but paraphrasing I think the gist of it was like yeah but you well first of all that's gonna happen with everyone like not everyone's perfect everyone's gonna make mistakes but if you if your learners are serious about it they're gonna figure that out for themselves.
SPEAKER_00Like they're gonna figure all of this out and if they're not then like who's it harming right I was like yeah you're right so that wrong preverb that I taught Kevin he definitely figured that out in the end some you know mulling things over in my head here like you said some students like not carrying on after you know after learning with you or in other programs um I think relates to the fact that something you mentioned earlier is that there's no um you know no advanced courses for you to take there's no advanced like you know you say you feel like you've plateaued and we don't always have the resources we want. Yeah like an advanced advanced Nishinaabiman course something digging into like the uh the buttons and the discourse markers and all that sort of stuff so you know I was thinking about that and I was like yeah I'm kind of I did take some advanced courses here which was awesome because I had the opportunity to do it. So I was like yeah that's uh that's a thing if we don't have the the resources then it's tough to keep up but then as you were talking through you're like talking about the people who are determined someone like Kevin was like yeah they're gonna learn eventually and I'm like hmm I'm not really putting in not really putting in the effort because yeah I can learn eventually I can learn the high um you know the super difficult stuff not even necessarily through a course through a program um I theoretically have the skills as a linguist to figure things out on my own. You know I can sit down with this with a speaker and figure it out.
SPEAKER_01So there's nothing um nothing that should be stopping me well other than the things we talked about like burnout and all the other difficult things but um yeah I don't know I'm just rambling now just some thoughts that came to me I I same same for me like maybe we need an episode on motivation because we talked about burnout like when what is what is the antidote how do you dig yourself out of that hole but I think also we need to be realistic that the language reclamation space at least for Nishnaba and when is not sustainable. Like we we don't have enough teachers we're not aligned or focused enough with our efforts you know like we don't we're following the mainstream education system which was never designed for us. I like in Anton Troyer's book The Language Warriors Manifesto everyone read that we should do a book club episode on that book actually because it's real good. Hey we should do book club yeah yeah next episode you gotta read a book um yeah but he describes mainstream education schools as a white empowerment program or something like that that these schools were built for not for NR people they were built for white children to succeed and if our own kids have have succeeded in these schools and programs it was in spite of the system and not because of it and that these schools will never empower our kids to speak their language to live their culture to be Nishnave like that's not who it was designed for and I believe that too so I believe this is just my thoughts but putting our language into those boxes it's not gonna work you know like taking ASL for 40 minutes a day and not hearing it anywhere else in the school anywhere at home anywhere in the community like how are you gonna doing calendar time doing the weather and it's not to say those things aren't like yeah do them but we also know that kids up to a certain age don't have any concept of calendar or or that kind of time so it's not gonna succeed in those ways we don't have the we only have the model to have one teacher and one EA not a master apprentice for every person to build that capacity you know and even in my experience with immersion schools which are also a great idea you know I spent so much time with the Shkinish Nabimjick focusing on adult learners and I think we've seen some real success and traction with that program. Even just anecdotally having learners that have come to our program and came up to me after and told me I've started dreaming in the language like that to me means that we're onto something here. And then focusing on children and it's like yeah we need to get them younger we need to get speaking to them when they're younger because they have this incredible gift but to to soak up everything right and they don't have to study grammar they just need to hear it. But we don't have teachers to to provide the input so I'm now I'm back to square one back focusing on adult language learners and that's how I really feel like we need to move forward is we need to invest in adults that are able to parent and teach and use the language in the community um and that's how it'll it'll be brought back because we just don't have enough fluent speakers or young enough speakers to be able like we need to to do that ourselves.
SPEAKER_00Did I finish my thought yes yep that's um that's 100% true and I don't know like I said earlier you're someone who knows how to do that. You're an expert you're someone who knows um how to what a successful language program would look like by trial and error I've definitely failed by trial and error and learn from that. Right. And not just like in the classroom but a larger community effort what what it would take to um to create a successful if not successful at least working um community effort for the language and that's where we're at right now you know leadership and all our communities are talking about oh everyone's all about the language now and now maybe there's funding for it or at least now maybe people are willing to commit funding to it and yeah it's not going to be what they expect. It's going to be like you said a master apparent program. They're gonna have to pay for two teachers if you got a like you know like what you did up in Chican that's that's 100% what needs to be done.
SPEAKER_01And yeah it's gonna it's gonna cost them it's gonna cost them their precious dollars but goddammit oh I just swore hey we went a full a full hour that's a new record that's a full that's a new record we need to put that yay we both laugh and start coughing just like auntie and uncle style um oh shishmaji I had a point based off of that on what you were oh yeah and even if we do have the funding where we have the master apprentice we also need someone to oversee that to ensure that it's being done properly because I've I've done this before and I've had it done to me before where it's like okay you're the master you're the apprentice go make magic happen and it's like no you need to tell us you need to show us how to do this effectively.
SPEAKER_00Yep. And yeah that could involve like you talked about earlier assessment.
SPEAKER_01I think also maybe one of the antidotes to this might be that we have elders and fluent speakers in leadership and not just tokens or ornamentation. So what does that really look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah because we have elders participating but not always you know even when I was going on about conferences not having enough speakers it's like maybe if they had a fluent speaker on their organizing you know that that would have been at least that perspective is there in planning and and everything. Maybe we would have had more speakers at some of these events. And I also think that we should oh there's so many points I need to go off of I've done some PD with school boards and I've also sat in on different meetings, you know, where we're talking about strategies and people are sharing their experiences and there's a number of different issues that is happening and again it goes back to we don't have capacity we don't have enough fluent speakers because it's an endangered language and our population is aging so that's very real. So that's part of the reason but people still want to offer language classes like I think in a lot of the school boards if you have Nishnave students you have to be able to offer it. So we get folks that are that are teaching it that aren't don't have any language knowledge I don't know what that word is don't have any language really or you know I've seen people get upset about having non-natives teaching and at that point like I would I just want anyone to teach that understands like I don't like let's not focus on what race are they but like can you teach language and I've also seen in a lot of school boards where they have to offer language so maybe you have one native teacher in your school board and and they might not be a learner or that might not be their knowledge or passion and they get roped into it anyway. And then you have people in the schools teaching language that don't want to teach language. And that to me is harmful because how are you supposed to learn from a teacher that doesn't even want to be there like what message is that sending to our kids that's really a big issue I don't care what race you are if you do not want to be there if you're not passionate about it if you don't have enough knowledge what are you teaching like what are our kids what are our kids learning so I don't know what the answer is to that like I really I really don't but I also know that's not the answer to that too. And I think I think in general we need to hire the right people. I believe my management or leadership style is bring in the right people and get out of their way and let them do their work. Let people do what they're good at. Let people do what they want to do and we and let's support them you know let's at least not get in their way. So I don't think forcing anyone to be a language teacher is really helping. I think we all have a part to play in this but we have to know like what are our strengths what are our interests and then yeah like also like what is what is needed also helps too like for yourself being a linguist I know that's what you're really into and documentation is really important. We have maybe like 20 years before m the majority of our speakers pass away and we're gonna need all those resources we can get and that's something that you want to do that you enjoy doing and you're good at so like do that right like don't feel like you need to be sit at a language table and not be having fun you know well I have fun at the language tables but I would not be the right person to be a you know classroom language teacher.
SPEAKER_00I can do it and I have done it but that's not my passion. Yeah I I like the linguistics I like the documentation I like sitting with the others so yeah you made a really good point about yeah someone someone teaching if they're not you know if they're not passionate about it. Can't make someone it's it's really not helpful to make someone teach if they're not into it.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what I like to do or what I'm good at but I like I like being at a Shkinish Nabam jick. I do like facilitating. You like teaching too I think or at least you you used to I like sharing but I don't like I I don't think I would ever go back into the classroom like in a mainstream classroom per se. I think maybe that relates to a Shkinish Nabim jick. Like I like engaging interacting speaking like planning like sharing those things but I don't there's something different between a Shkinish Navem jick and like teaching in a classroom. I don't know what it is but I excel being in person and engaging like just let I'm like just let me do immersion like okay let I let's bring up a like a hot topic or something controversial controversial controversial controversial controversial I guess it is spelled controversial right yeah my mind just controversial controversial you know that clothing brand puma yeah one time my mind glitch and I called it Puma Puma I think some people say the word Puma as to pronounce that word I am one of them and now every time I go to say it I'm like Puma Puma Puma.
SPEAKER_00I used to say Puma until I heard people saying Puma and then I'm like okay I guess I'm saying it wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah because I'm wearing my puma pants that's the only way I remember my son was wearing Puma pants and he did Puma's pants so that's how I remember the right pants for it's gonna turn 18 and hear this recording and be a little embarrassed one day. Um oh yeah so we should do things that we're good at that we're excited about that we want to do but we should also know our subject matter a little bit and I think also this might be part of the school board thing where people are getting forced into these positions. And I know not every fluent speaker but it this is kind of a fear that I've heard among fluent speakers and so I feel this way too sometimes is that we're worried that we don't want to like fossilize our pass on quote unquote mistakes. You know or we want to teach you know we want to ensure there's integrity with the language that's being shared but we don't want to be discouraging either like I don't I think it's kind of a trap to believe that there's this like that there's this like pinnacle something I don't know oh will it like recognize it'll think you're talking to it or something and then it'll like pick up some words. So I think we wanna like I think we wanna normalize growth development and not just like you've peaked and arrived and you know so I don't know. Do you know what I'm getting at? Um I don't think so okay here's another way of putting it I've seen some really good L2 teachers out there like like Zoe. Well I haven't seen her teach but I've seen her speak. She's taught you she's a good teacher you know I wouldn't discount someone like her just because she wasn't born fluent. Um Kevin Kevin Chilling Ritchie I would recommend taking a class with him Amy Devossegay Oneg Muldrew like there's a lot of really good L2 teachers out there and they're not gonna maybe they're not gonna be able to provide you with something that a fluent speaker would be able to provide you. You know, they have a different expertise and experience but they're good. On the other hand I've seen some L2 teachers that like have some work have some work to do or you know conjugating things and teaching quote unquote mistakes. So and it's this I feel like it's the same thing for fluent speakers. Like some are really great teachers and some just because you can speak a language like doesn't mean doesn't mean like I'm speaking English I know all the grammar because I'm speaking it and being ununderstood but can someone from Japan come over to Canada and I can like probably not like I'm probably it doesn't mean I'm a born English teacher. So for L2 teachers what do we do about that? How do we you know what's your advice or how does someone even know might be a useful class or who's a good teacher and who might not or I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't want to not naming any names or anything I don't know I guess if they can speak the language decently and I don't know I guess it's hard to tell if you don't know the language like how how that person is speaking. I don't know. Quiz them, put them, bring a fluent speaker and be like, hey, talk to this person. And if they can't do it, then then no too bad. I don't think you're I don't think you're a for it.
SPEAKER_01I have I have had people bring fluent speakers into my class actually. Now I have to think about I wonder if they were quizzing me. It's really nerve wracking, you know, when you're teach especially the way that I we teach, I teach not a lot of fluent speakers like that. Like the grammar. Actually that's a good segue into another topic because this happens in mainstream schools too where sometimes the school or organization privileges certification over actual speaking and knowledge and fluency. Where a fluent speaker gets paid terribly because working in a Western Joganosh pay scale, it's like well we're not asking for any there's nothing on the pay scale to account for their lived experience. It's like well we're not asking we're not even asking for a high school diploma and it's like well they literally survived genocide to speak speaking the language. So surely that's worth something more than measly entry rates. So sometimes too so I get uncomfortable speaking and teaching because I never want to feel I don't want to take a a teacher's place. And that's why I always tell people that I'm a reluctant language teacher because for a long time I didn't want to and then the only time I would take a a teaching gig is if they couldn't find anyone else. It's like well if you don't teach this this program gets cancelled. And it's like okay. But yeah I think it kind of goes back to like having being able to vet things and to have an assessment in place. Kind of I imagine I don't know for for sure for experience I imagine that's similar to what they do at Waduka Dotting where they have op OPI language assessments every year and so that you're able to track but that also goes back to like well who'd who does the assessment and how do you know what level they're at. But that's something maybe I think our language strategies need to look into is how do we properly vet and assess. And that's where we start once we're able to ensure that you know people know their stuff or if they don't know their stuff they're on their way. Not that we discount anyone but that has to be how do we integrate that into our our models. So I think everything we do we have to be looking at capacity building or legacy planning. But yeah that does happen where they would rather hire a teacher than like a fluent speaker or a community member maybe another a proficient L2 learner who doesn't have their teaching degree but they know their stuff and they're passionate about the language so I would rather that person teach than someone that just has a teaching degree that doesn't know very much or any language.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I remember back in the day like when I was a kid we had language teachers on the res and they all had to have gone through that like language program. That Lakehead had that like native language teaching program instructor program. Which is super cool and is good and all but like back in those days back when I was a kid there was a ton of fluent speakers on the res. There was a ton of speakers and yeah unless you had some sort of certification you couldn't um you couldn't be a teacher which you know looking back on from here where we are now where there's so few speakers at all it's kinda kinda wild that we had to hold old speakers to these standards and still do like you just mentioned still do which yeah isn't great hold to these Western standards I should say.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna put maybe put you on the spot here but for someone to be a language teacher what do you think is the base like what should they know?
SPEAKER_00So you mean like a non-fluent like a minimum speaker language teacher you mean what's the bare minimum they should know? I don't know. I think it would take too long to to determine that but I feel like we could come up with a list we come up with a list of like you know I don't know maybe this is gonna get into the weeds or controversial because it's gonna rely on um you know grammatical concepts you know like verb types you gotta know the verb types gotta know the verb types and their conjugations or at least how to access those conjugations because I don't know all the all the conjugations for all the different verb types but if I don't know one I know how to find out what it is in the absence of a fluent speaker. If there's a fluent speaker and just ask them straight up like how do you say this?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know that stuff preverbs but there's a uh an S ton of preverbs see that I call myself I didn't swear there's a a crap ton of I'm still gonna blink it out like you did.
SPEAKER_01Um but yeah how do you determine what are the eh I don't know I think there's some base preverbs come up with a list of the most commonly used ones I don't know I don't know what are the basics I guess because way back in one of our first episodes or maybe even our very first one you said something like that they needed to at least know because I remember being like wow let's you just that's it eh you said they needed to know B form and B form negation or something like it was like but um you gotta know get an initial change as well if you're gonna because like questions I think you should know how to ask a question as a basic thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah um but that gets into the that gets really complicated. You also need to know transitive and intransitive because you don't want to be teaching something like I guess that goes hand in hand with the verb types you know teaching the verb types. You have to be able to teach these concepts of transitivity and animacy which you know you and I take for granted now as somewhat proficient speakers but I remember not understanding what those were when I first started learning. Like transitivity with the like it took me a little while took me a while to wrap my head around that stuff. A form, B form, negation. I think we yeah I don't know I think we can come up with a list.
SPEAKER_01But I think I think some speakers get like a little bit worried or they also some of them don't want to be replaced when they see learners teaching. But also it's like well if I don't teach it then no one is or I have to I have a duty to at least pass something on. So there's like two sides of the same coin and I think they're both with the best of intentions for the the language to thrive. But if it's not handled properly then that stuff can can lead to conflict and can eat away at you know any kind of good work or progress that that you might be making. I don't know really what the answer is but I think if I could if like if everyone could just listen to me if everyone could just hear this message and that it's that like we all have a a part to play in this and that we should all stick to what we're good at and what we what we want to do because I think like I think the grammar real and kind of thing that a lot of uh L2 learners are like you know this is what got a lot of L2s proficient to a certain extent is being all for the grammar and I think that's why it's kind of uh like a hot topic or a hard pill to swallow that we share a lot on the podcast because for a number of reasons you know and I know why that dislike or that fear comes because that might have been a Jaganash way that was taught in day schools residential schools and there's a lot of trauma with that. I think it's also just not part of our culture historically to have things written down and learn and teach that way. I think that's part of it too. So I know why that fear is there but but it also helps for for adult learners and then a lot of fluent speakers don't really understand that way because they don't have to because they learned it ideally in the home. So that stuff is not same with me speaking English. Like I my mom never taught me English grammar patterns she just spoke to me. You know cool. As an adult picking up another language I have to work at it because I've kind of lost that sponge like ability to just soak up a new language by being immersed in it. So I think sometimes they might not understand that and there's a fear around that but instead of focusing on that I think if fluent and I'm not saying all fluent speakers but the ones that have this fear kind of thing or or against it could understand that like that's one way of teaching you know I might it might not be for me I might not understand and I might not be good at it but I have other gifts to offer I can I can offer that comprehensible input you know what I mean I can provide translations I can speak right and you know teach all these cool idioms and turns of phrases that a learner like us wouldn't be able to to do and then vice versa like at least for myself I would prefer to not lead an immersion I feel more comfortable facilitating because I am going to make mistakes and I also know that I have to not be scared to make mistakes but I don't think it means that I could do immersion be an immersion teacher better than a fluent speaker. So so I stick to my lane um and passing on maybe the grammar and like or breaking it down like there's clear patterns in the language yeah so I think my message is that like everyone just has to provide what they can provide and not try to be you know yeah that's why it yeah would be amazing to have a fluent speaker in every classroom with an L2 like the two of them teaching together. Yeah that would be that would be the dream. But not every community is able is able to do that either. I think the even more ideal way like if I could have it my way I would have become well which is kind of what I did I would have become as fluent or proficient, learned as much as I could before taking on a teacher or parent role. So which is what I did. I would have been more become more if I could have because it's really hard to do that stuff once you're a parent w I think a lot of us listening understand what that's like and even a teacher because you're busy being a teacher working you know 820 to 4 with the classroom full of kids and you have all this other stuff to worry about and to try to learn language on your time off is not gonna you're gonna burn yourself out is not sustainable. So it's kind of almost it's like more ideal to to just focus on learning before you go into a role like a parent or a teacher because it's it's full on. It's not to say that you can't continue learning but you definitely can't you don't have the same capacity to to be able to learn you know like all those times that we I went to Minnesota in Oog I was not a parent. And even for me to run a shinishnavim jick with my two kids I'd like that's a lot that's really that's really hard. So if you go if you're listening and you don't have a kid yet yeah keep going that's always been uh yeah that's what I tell the youths so if there's a L2 teacher listening what's one thing you would want to say to them or want them to know oh me oh I thought you're gonna miss I I misheard you I thought you well Ophelia if there are L2 teachers out there sorry I thought you were addressing them. I'm I'm asking you what's one thing you would want to say to an L teacher L2 teacher I don't know that's a big question.
SPEAKER_00Um keep up the good work okay maybe not one thing is there anything I think it's um just sum up the whole conversation we just had it's like I can't answer your question it'll take too much thought or put me on the spot what would you want them to know?
SPEAKER_01Like in terms of teaching or in terms of never stop learning and yeah you can always improve and when I think about not just language teachers but maybe especially language teachers I feel like when I because I teach a lot and so I think about this stuff a lot the best teachers that I've had love learning themselves because when you have someone that's that loves learning it's infectious. Like that's not something that you can fake or be or replicate. When you have someone that's really excited to be there that's passionate they go the extra distance and that's really um infectious and so I think you have to love learning you have to love learning the language. You have to love learning the language enough to even maybe sometimes have a thick skin to be teachable for someone to correct you or gently guide you. You can't really have a big ego for this like it's hard I'm not gonna lie like this is not an easy path by any means but you have to also remain teachable yourself. And at least the at at very least the most important thing is that is that your students have someone that loves learning and is able to pass on the penguin uh passion for the language. A student in your class or a learner they will they can pick up on that right away just like they can pick up when you don't want to be there and you're not passionate about the learning. It's really hard to learn with someone that does not want to be there and is just kind of like going through the motions and and doing the bare minimum. And also you will make mistakes for sure and this this is all coming back to my main point about you know you have to love learning and keep going with it because you'll be like me and you will make mistakes and it's not just with language it's with everything. They always say I remember in teachers college they used to say don't quit your first five years um because those are the hardest years and then after that you kind of like you got some experience you got your lesson plans you know your classroom management style that's when you start to get into a flow. So the first five years are you you know you're like you're kind of in the weeds a bit and so no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes and that's the part where you have to be humble and be teachable and willing to learn from your mistakes and grow and always be improving. I think I mentioned this on the last episode where it's like I never teach a class the same way because I'm always trying to make it better. I'm like what if we did this right so I talked about one time I taught where we learned transitives first because I was always would start with V A I's and V I I's you know and they're like what's intransitive and it's like no it's not transitive. So I'm like let's just start with transitive and then it's easy to learn what you know all the other verbs that are not that. So I'm always doing things different and trying to trying to improve things because I love what I do. I love the language and I want to share it and pass it on and I want pe I want it to be fun or easy or like make sense. So how do I keep improving on this? And I think those are those are the best teachers. So like you are going to make mistakes you might not be fluent when you start teaching but it doesn't mean that you can't improve and can't grow because if you don't want to do those things pick another subject to teach please teach French. Just kidding Yeah that's what I was gonna say yeah yeah yeah you can write a listener letter and I'll read it out loud we got a lot of good um listener letters lately sent me sent me a few haven't replied to any yet but no thanks to everyone for listening and sending in their comments and everything's really cool. I think it really lit it really got me uh excited again just hearing hearing from people because uh you know we did that thing and we just talked about the language in English but I think uh like I I think sometimes these things can be productive you know so hopefully we were productive yeah anything else I don't think so okay you close this out here oh me good and much manich that means okay that's probably enough it's gonna be much easy manda a language podcast and it's a common to send us a list and a letter like you want to language podcast and email common is my link podcast is my