Mike Zayonc founded the Plug and Play supply chain and logistics innovation platform, the Sunnyvale, California-based platform has become the world's largest supply chain business accelerator.
Discover more details here.
Some of the highlights of the episode:
Mike Zayonc founded the Plug and Play supply chain and logistics innovation platform, the Sunnyvale, California-based platform has become the world's largest supply chain business accelerator.
Discover more details here.
Some of the highlights of the episode:
Radu Palamariu : 0:00
Hello and welcome to the lead isn't your best. I'm your host, Rod A problem? Are you managing director of the global? Our mission is to connect this my chemical system globally by bringing forward the most interesting divas in the industry. And it's my pleasure to have with us today. Mike Exam, who is the founder of loving place watching and logistics innovation. Oh, Sonny, they'll get it or not. They have become the largest supply chain business accelerator in the world, and it basically works with. They were with Betty Corporate Partners and a lot of startups to help them build their businesses. Some of their work with lines and innovation Supporters include Schneider Electric, Pansa, Religious War, Mark Di Gel, FedEx Shell or TV Shankar and likes Innovations. That room belongs to the wider network of Plug and Play, which of course, sends a close Starbucks in vertical moving, painting insured ability, the things that J They had about 6000 startups and 280 efficient pork with partners, and they created the ecosystems in many industries and many compliments and have raised over seven billion in funding with successful exits, including state or my thanks for making the time. It's a pleasure to have you with us today.
Mike Zayonc : 1:26
Thanks Radu! You really appreciate taking some time to chat with you today.
Radu Palamariu : 1:30
Eso Let's start maybe with the first question in terms of How did you end up butt plug and play and why specifically supply chain and starting the splash in breakfast?
Mike Zayonc : 1:43
Yeah, So I started out plug and play about around five years ago, where I was hired to work with different corporate partners in a variety of different industries. Some of the ones you mentioned, like mobility and I OT and insurance. And, uh, after two and 1/2 years of being there, I realized that there was definitely a need offer innovation in the supply chain, a logistics industry and that there's a huge market opportunity toe investing startups scaling in this sector. And at the time we saw a lot of startups like Flex Sport, for example, that presented at one of our first events before they raised. Uh, they're very large round of funding from Softbank, where we saw a ton of kind of activity in the space, and I saw a lot of interest from corporate partners like Luthor owns a cargo and Exxon Mobil around areas like Where's Where's my stuff? Looking at visibility in the supply chain, looking at, yeah, traceability, I ot tracking, but also trends like Blockchain and supply chains. So so a ton of activity there and just basically have the opportunity to start this fighting with logistics program early on with a few corporate partners and, uh, and now it's grown into a very large program with a global presence. So we have offices primarily in Silicon Valley, is our largest headquarter office, and then we also have our office here in Bentonville, Arkansas. We're re support Walmart, Tyson Foods, J B. Hunt and Georgia Pacific and then our office in Hamburg, Germany, where we support partners like Shell Devi, Shankar Chivo and quite a few other European three peels and other corporate partners. So now we've now opened up in the building, are stronger presence in Shanghai and Singapore in Asia, and are really excited to kind of be a leading player in the global supply chain, connecting both corporations and start ups together from all around the world.
Radu Palamariu : 3:45
And I know that your selection process is quite an interesting one and and also it's a it's a mind bogglingly one in terms of number of start up. So I was a vice. I was reading that you get on average about 2000 startups that come to you guys to be part of the acceleration for process and anything from artificial intelligence analytics, election organization, warehouse information Blockchain traces with you on that. Now, when you have 2000 startups and for all the people listening to us, what are your criteria? How do you design which of these makes sense toe get on the program in which not,
Mike Zayonc : 4:26
yeah, s O plug and play were very corporate focused. So we like to see kind of work with our corporate partners to find out which technology areas are important to them. So whether it's around some of the areas we discussed, like machine learning our analytics or just different ways to automate or optimize within the supply chain or provide better visibility or tracking, those were some of the big trends that we look at and essentially, What our job is to do is to make it easier for our corporate partners toe filter these startups to find startups that will solve a media challenges for the corporate partners. Ah, and provide them quick wins because it's very difficult for all of these corporations. Toe filter thousands of startups. So that's where we can come in and and do the long that heavy lifting and meet all the start ups and plug and play. We have a very large team, so we have, uh, across all of our different verticals. We have about 600 people. Ah, 100 of those air just kind of venture what we call them Ventures Associates. So what they do is they analyze and they meet start ups on a day to day basis and look at them for investment. But then they also look at making introductions toe our corporate network of now over 300 major corporations from around the world. And, ah, essentially, uh, yeah, we want to always analyze and figure out what the trends are and make the best connections we can possible. And when we're looking at these startups, one is we re validate the companies that they solve the challenge for the corporate partners that we have, and then we evaluate their team. We see that if it's a strong founding team. That's where we'd want to invest our money into. And then also, we we look at things like how much traction they're getting in the market and and also like, Is it a specific pipe proprietary technology? So we kind of away all these things and ah, see Andi test them out and see if they're going to get traction among the corporate partners that we have. And if they do than me, we normally bring them into the program. And and then a handful of the startups that get accepted into our program also get funding from us and our venture. Armas. Well,
Radu Palamariu : 6:30
understood on basically, when you're saying when you speak about, uh, let's talk about team So the development, How would you define a strong founding team?
Mike Zayonc : 6:43
Yeah, so by a strong founding team, I mean, it's very difficult to build a start up, so that's the most important thing that we can really look out is, does this founding team show resilience? Are they able to find product market fit, pivot their business models if needed? Are they going to give up when things are tough? And ultimately we really want to find teams that are passionate about their products that will kind of do anything to make sure it's successful, and those are the ones that ultimately get the most funding. But there's a lot of things that we need to look at around the team is one. Do they have a good technical background? Does the CTO stand above other technical founders and cannot actually build a strong technology? But then do they also probably even nowadays, more importantly, have a strong business background? Can they actually articulate their product to investors and customers and grow their customers their product from a business development perspective? So we want to see teams that can complement each other that did ultimately work cohesively. It's kind of like also building a sports team where you don't want to have everyone doing the same thing. You want to have people Ah, with synergy that can ultimately complement each other and and ah, really make sure that the team wins instead of just having a few individual strengths
Radu Palamariu : 8:05
and tell us a little bit in terms of the collaboration with Corporates and also the whole model of the accelerator right then the whole mother plug in plain how do you have your sustain? You get a captain, you invest in the business. Do you also get obviously, the corpus introduced? I was a for them to be members and mysterious. Also from the financial more perspective of us that were Who gives the funding? Well, all those that's is a
Mike Zayonc : 8:34
Yeah, so So we have a very developed corporate engagement model where we bring on a variety of different corporate partners. So generally those economies of scale by bringing on multiple corporations, it's more effective because they're able to ultimately engage with more start ups from the corporate perspective. And then it's also more affordable for everyone involved. We like to divers by the costs and just make it affordable for everyone and make sure there's buying from the corporate perspectives. But then, from the start of perspective, we we ultimately have a very unique model where we do not charge the startups anything. We realized after years of doing this, that startups are not the best customer, that it's not always easy to charge them financially to be in these programs, and then we also I realized that it's most effective to not also take equity from any of the startups, I just for being accepted into the program. So oftentimes we get these start ups that come into our program and they say things to us like, How did I get involved with this? This is too good to be true or this is like the something that's really changed our business because we're all ultimately making these introductions to the largest companies in the world and finding the right people within these organizations tow pilot and implement their solutions so we can save them a lot of time and which is kind of our ultimate goal is we. Even though startups don't pay the pay us, we see them as our customers because ultimately we want their time and we want them to be engaged. And and we do have this large corporate network where we wanna make sure that we're showing value to them. So it's kind of this win win win model and uh and then in addition to that, because we don't take equity. If a start of doesn't want an investment in that throughout the right stage off for us, which is generally cedar, Siri's a level, then we can negotiate on investment case by case within the startup because each of the startups have different requirements. They're all at different stages. Some of them have, ah, they need a larger amount of funding. Some of them don't really wanna have that much funding, but they might want us to contribute a little bit just to put our name on it. So I mean, it's always a case by case thing that we can negotiate with each of the founders and ah, and then we find that we make a lot of the best investments by doing that
Radu Palamariu : 10:53
in terms of the most interesting startups that you're supporting at the moment and it may be is not a fair question, but because I don't want necessarily want you to discriminate. But still, it's a little bit maybe about seven examples. You know, maybe some examples of companies that just wanted a jewel, some of them Or let's say, the ones that have gained more. Most attraction is just one hour.
Mike Zayonc : 11:21
Yeah, so there's many ways that you can define a traction with the startups, whether it's raising funding or whether it's raising additional customers. So I mean, we've had a lot of success in all these different areas from the supply chain a logistic startups that we work with. And again, we're working end to end across the supply chain. So looking at technologies all the way from the mind to last mile deliveries after consumers doorstep and everywhere in between in the supplies shame. So it's a very broad array of cos I'll name just a couple that I think are specifically interesting that are getting along attraction right now. One of them is a company that was founded in Silicon Valley that we actually invested into along with Google's uh aye aye fund, which is called Grady Adventures. And they're called Cog Nack. So called me Jack No, like the drink, but there's an eye in the middle. So So essentially they provide this a I computer vision solution where you can essentially do these inspections and tag in tow any any kind of camera system and they can do a real time inspection. They're they're they're able to train this, eh? I tow inspect for many different things. They're also doing kind of bill of Lading tze and trade documents at this point as well as doing inspections for a lot of railroads, So a lot of the railroads have utilized them to inspect in real time whether the train's breaking down and there's a need for predictive maintenance. There's also been major role lot's across America about with their technology, where they can essentially scan people on Trent on trains that might be hiding. In Mexico, for example, there was a problem where people actually jumped onto the trains or camouflage. People don't see them so they would normally hire people. Toto, watch out for this. But their computer vision technology can actually inspect this better than a human cuts, which ultimately saves costs for the different corporations as well as, ah, as does the scanning for people more effectively. So that's a That's a really interesting company that spot in a very significant amount of traction through us and and just really working with a lot of our corporate partners. A CZ Well, there's another company called Shoof Technologies, which we also invested into essentially their founding team built off the Silver Spring Network Company, which is the smart grid utility meter that you see on the side of every house. And what they're building is a new kind of wireless standard for connectivity. So they're able to make these inspections within ports, warehouses, manufacturing facilities and ableto detect these. These objects very accurately have a 10 year battery life on Do this through a completely new kind of connectivity standard. Did they have developed other vision is to kind of build this solution so that it's as common as WiFi is when whenever you walk into ah ah, house or an office, for example, they want you to be tagged into any kind of porter warehouse whenever you're tight again to track your your stuff. So those those air to start ups that I really like from, ah, kind of attraction and growth perspective that we've engaged a lot over the last few years. But then another company that did really well from a venture capital perspective. Uh, at least the funding perspective is a company called Raffy, which is a last mile logistics company from Bogota, Colombia. So they were initially founded under a different business model, but pivoted to making these last mile deliveries. And they have these red Backpackers that kind of used bicycles to make last meal deliveries across Latin America and they actually write received a $1 billion with the funding from Softbank just in the last year. So from a venture capital perspective that was very successful, and they're experiencing quite a lot of growth. And we're really proud to kind of co invested in all those companies with pop venture firms like Sequoia. But but also cos like I mentioned Kleiner Perkins and Google's A I Fund, which is radiant ventures.
Radu Palamariu : 15:17
Robbi obviously, is a big, big story for sure. I might ask you for an introduction to get them. What's best, I think it's always the biggest.
Mike Zayonc : 15:28
Yeah, more than happy to introduce some
Radu Palamariu : 15:31
way worked with the
Mike Zayonc : 15:32
CEO for many years.
Radu Palamariu : 15:34
Super. I mean, that's that's quite a success story. And, uh, Andi, hopefully in many years to come. The growth I wanted to us from coming back a little bit to the corporate, and you mentioned that you're kind of doing that around the filtering, so you get the corporate needs and what they want to achieve what they were trying to achieve, change about the business, and then you try toe match, make them with the right start ups that may have a solution for that. How many and, well, a little bit more things that that process, How does that happen? Other specific areas where corporate partners are more interested in that looking at when working with the start up a supposed brothers. Because also, when you get a start ups, of course, you you're talking about a TV shankar of each other. You know Walmart. It's acute church company. So to start implementing a solution, you need to start small. How does this whole process holiday even beside? I guess I'm trying for asking. But how? From apartment perspective, however they decide which area do I want to work with? A start up? Yeah, So that's a good
Mike Zayonc : 16:42
question, and and something we're very well positioned at that plug in plays toe really be at the forefront of what what the industry trends are and what these corporations are actually asking for. We really like it when the corporations have this pole within the corporation that they need to solve this challenge because then it's easy for us tow set up a session where we can recommend startups, and when we introduce these startups, it's more likely that the business units they're gonna pilot and actually move forward with these companies. So that's kind of rather than pushing them too much around the startups, where would wish we also do, Because sometimes the corporations don't know what they don't know, and they trust us as kind of, ah leading innovation provider to say, Okay, this is a start up that's getting a lot attraction This you might want to take a look at it, but But generally we really like it. Toe kind of have these structured sessions where we're really solving challenges on behalf of the business units of the corporations. And I mean, we really look at a lot of different challenges. We see some big trends, like visibility is a really big area, you know, for example, like was a lot of startups that we've worked with have got in traction, like Project 44 or four Kites or ocean insights for Ocean tracking or even Clear Medal, for example, are some just the start ups that we've engaged with, But, I mean, there's a lot of different startups around different areas where we might bring in around very specific sessions and ultimately always thinking, How can we solve this corporations a challenge And, uh, yeah, I mean, there's there's quite a few areas, like whether it's how to automate within a warehouse or how to, uh, really track kind of stuff, whether it's in the trunk or a warehouse or ah ah, port, for example. And ultimately, we really wanted just no kind of which start ups will solve these challenges so we can best recommend them and keep the good faith with our corporate partners.
Radu Palamariu : 18:32
I'm just wondering, Wilson, did you ever get in the position where a corporate, a corpse plant bought a start up by themselves?
Mike Zayonc : 18:40
Yeah, there's actually been a few acquisitions that sometimes we get asked from bike over partner, like less than 1% of the time that, hey, we want to buy this technology. Obviously, that was a long process. Where we really focus on is 70% of the time. We wantto introduced pilots and potential business development engagements or posies onto the corporate partners so they can just test and potentially further implement the technology. And then I would say, Ah, minor percent of the time. Some of the corporate also want to invest into the startups, where which is something we can always discuss with them as well. But generally the first step before acquiring or doing Ah, a new investment or a corporate investment into the startups is really to just a pilot and test the technology invalidated. That's where a lot of our more successful partners have done. And I know that's kind of the mindset of, like Pro Lodges Ventures, which is an active partner of ours, the largest owner of industrial warehouses in the world. And they they were very active investor from a global perspective in the start us. But But generally they like to get things started with the pilot.
Radu Palamariu : 19:47
How about how about in terms of making the difference and what there's you? Whether you know, the startup is going to make it versus, um, some start ups that may not make it. And I mean the other day reality, no matter the way and exaggerations and everything, it's still a numbers game, right? So let's get most of do fail. So in this journey, and you've seen a lot of start ups and you worked with a lot of startups, what do you see makes the difference between the ones that make it ultimately and the ones who made along the way. Yeah, that's a
Mike Zayonc : 20:22
really good question, and it's really hard to say there's a lot of factors like everything needs to line up for a start up to really be. One of the home runs that we're looking for is a venture capital investor. But we do need toe kind of make sure that the team is fully engaged, that they're really passionate about other product, that they won't give up and that ultimately, I would say it takes 7 to 10 years for us a lot of times as an early stage investor to see a return from these investments cause we only make money as an investor when how'd they get acquired or when the AIPO, which is a super long term thing. So I think we'll see a lot more kind of the success stories down the road. But obviously we want to make sure that kind of all the metrics add up and and, uh and sometimes we're surprised. I mean, I think being opportunistic from the start of perspective is really important, being flexible on and willing to pivot and find product market fit eyes, something that we've seen a lot of startups because they may be not have the perfect product in the beginning. But if they can validate that, it worked very close with their customers. Those were generally the startups that we find her the most successful down the long term.
Radu Palamariu : 21:34
Any time's up. Let this flip the question in terms of mistakes you've made. Um, why so what I saw, Maybe you are. I mean, that's happened, right? He also select sometimes the don't work out. So maybe this affected their that in Cheryl's a world phone. This this necklace for the corporate innovation people this need to us that they would watch watch out
Mike Zayonc : 22:01
for yeah, I would say that there's definitely mistakes that we make. Uh, I'd say a lot of start ups, they don't kind of give us two returns that we would want is to return our our capital for making an investment. It's very hard to kind of say what what what went wrong? I mean, over over time. But I would say just kind of looking for those general trends around having a very passionate team that we really believe could could address a very large market on and ultimately potentially. Hopefully, even destructor have enormous impact on the industry that really, really looking for these kind of big vision type of entrepreneurs. But but generally, obviously some of them are gonna fail and not be successful. But it's, Ah, it's hard to point fingers. We do like to work with these serial entrepreneurs as well that they don't give up too easily that they don't have a Plan B. They ultimately they're gonna make this startup succeed. Otherwise, there they have no other choice. They don't even think about kind of the other options. And those were the kind of founders that we really want toe wanna work with,
Radu Palamariu : 23:14
Burn your bridges and that's That's a good That's a good strategy to make sure that the person carries on, no matter what. So looks. Yeah, not anymore. What's in the main principles that you want to use steel in your startups culture? So culture is a big it's an intention, but but it's a big thing to make or break the company. So other certain principles that you want to make sure they have in terms of the way they operate that businesses you've mentioned. Just don't have a Plan B and make sure you work, work, work out. Did you make it? But this is on the principles that you want to see in the union Startups in country?
Mike Zayonc : 23:54
Yeah, definitely. We liketo have things like integrity being part of the startups culture. For example, if they're telling us they have these numbers, we expect them not to be lying. And for them tow, I'll be telling the truth and and for them to be respectful of people's time and and, uh, just kind of that strong business knowledge of like of obviously prioritizing what? Which, what meetings were the most important, but trying to stay true to their word and and, ah, falling through on what they promised. That's something that's very, very important for us. We also like to have, as I mentioned, very hardworking teams. I'm so building a startup is not easy. It requires a lot more effort than a traditional job or even working in a large corporations. So we want these entrepreneurs to be very hardworking and put an extra effort to make sacrifices, to do everything they can to make sure the business is successful. We also like to have, um as I mentioned, passionate teams. So teams that didn't really they believe in this. They believe that this will change the world. They believe that this will be a very successful company. And ultimately, once they have this passion, I think it you can kind of see it when you meet the founding teens and and, uh and and they'll it just gives them a bit more of an engine. So when times get hard that they're able to, uh, have that underlying passion to make sure that they keep going and then, yeah, I'd say, uh, yeah, just ah, collaborative team environment is really important that they work well with others that they have good interpersonal skills, that people want to work with them. So they're not too cocky, But they still have some sort of humility where they people want to do business with them and ultimately enjoy kind of their experience working with the company. And then and then, yeah, I mean, there's there's a lot of things that we think will make the company successful. But then again, we're sometimes wrong. His bones that sometimes founder doesn't have one of these things, and they still are successful. But I would say more more often than not, those were some of the things that we look for when we're putting money and investing into these startups.
Radu Palamariu : 26:02
And look, I mean, if you had found the civil bullet that works world startups, I think you you would want to do that. So I think they probably I think a lot of people have been looking for that works world. There's no such thing. Yeah, some things. Sometimes it's just it's just a combination and sometimes, like you work with me, said, You know, it might not have all the different ingredients, but it still works. Yeah, it's a good one moving on to the town recruitment, attracting people side right. So once it starts on grows, they begin to have more and more traction. They have more and more successively to start recruiting and hiring, and especially the first hires. The 1st 5 10 people to act in the business in can be or are usually critical assistant veterans, advice or principles that you you think critical when it comes to hiring the first members of the teams.
Mike Zayonc : 27:08
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think we really believe in like that. Ah, hire slow and fire fast mentality. So if people aren't meeting their objectives that it's best to not have them on the team and then and then to really be careful about we bring onto the founding team and how you kind of incentivize the team. So those air are really important things and especially when we look at startups like, how is the equity distributed in the company that could cap table can tell you a lot of boat kind of the foundation of the company. So I would say having kind of a culture that kind of is ah is resonates with each other that people ultimately kind of believe in the vision of the whole culture. I think that's that's really important and then ultimately it's good to also have diverse team. So as I mentioned teams that complement each other, they have different skill sets and they ultimately have the same vision at the end so that they're like they're working towards the same goal
Radu Palamariu : 28:04
in terms of training and sort of more formal type of skills that you may want your funders to acquire and Sometimes I can be anything but a certain core business or management people training's or horses that you want them to go through to make sure they have the fundamentals in place in terms of running a business.
Mike Zayonc : 28:31
Uh, yeah, so I mean, I think overall, the biggest thing is to have an open mind as an entrepreneur is that a lot of times you have to have flexibility that it's, ah, very agile environment that you have to be able to kind of learn on the fly and just be proactive about things. So if you do something that you think could improve the business just to go out and do it, and it's kind of better, we believed to have this kind of act now apologize later type mentality where, as a start up you you have to make moves and even take some risks. But it's better to move quickly than not moving all. So that's That's the game, I would say overall of being a startup is just really, uh, the be opportunistic, like one of the quotes are our CEO, Sayyed always says, is that his his father apparently used to always say to him was when opportunity on Knox opened the door.
Radu Palamariu : 29:29
It's a good one, and it's not. It's not always easy to do with you. It sounds very a very common sense. Yeah, regarding some of the regarding and you mentioned further for before and we actually had the jet, their CEO on the best and so successful startups head and they specifically just reporting for before you mentioned a few other things here method for cats and all that. They they managed to to attract a lot of a lot of interest of other clients. Obviously that this ability, peace is something that's really big for a lot of the corporate moment. I wanted to ask you also from a process perspective from one this big, big plans, like you have a Wal Mart. So they say they they pilot the start of X has no name the works they have some good results. Was that typically limitation? Close is an adoption process. Gina and the porter, how they typically go about trying to make that almost is a organizational wide. You should. It's a big
Mike Zayonc : 30:40
yeah, so generally like the way we work with these companies is is we try and bring in the relevant champions from they can bring in business students of the companies that would actually work with that specific solution or technology area. And then normally the corporation would go through the process of signing some sort of N d A. Or legal agreement, which for some corporations can be a very tedious process is a lot of corporations sometimes have these 50 page for example, M s a agreements which they would put on a startup, which doesn't work because the startup doesn't have the legal resources toe actually go through all these legal paperwork. But yeah, I say, generally we would like to make sure that they have a short essay or legal agreement in place with start ups. That's very startup friendly. And, uh, after that process has gone through, we really encourage the pilot. Are there to be pilots between the corporations and the startups, and if it works, the pilot works. Then they should scale it up more and ultimately rolled it out across a larger area of the company. But if it doesn't work, then to just end it and move on quickly. So we really encourage this kind of test and pivot type of methodology, and ah, and ultimately cutting out if it doesn't work at all.
Radu Palamariu : 31:54
Final question for me: What would be the best piece of advice that you would give a Founder or Co-Founder founding team of startup in terms of making their idea successful. Just one,
Mike Zayonc : 32:09
Um, my advice is, Yes, it's probably the most important thing for a startup, assuming they're already passionate and really care about their product and working hard on it, is to be opportunistic is to just keep an open mind and, for example, really, always listen to your customers. If you're finding a lot of traction in a market segment that you didn't think was a fit initially, just be open to kind of pivoting your business and ultimately scaling it and focusing on it where you're actually driving revenue because it was a business that's hoping to scale. It's really important to generate that initial traction and things like revenue or kind of number of users or whatever the traction metrics are, those things are really important and to build to demonstrate that to be seasoned investors, that's something that will really help them from a metrics perspective when they're trying to grow.
Radu Palamariu : 33:01
Mmm. My thank you. So much has been them is being extremely insightful. I'm sure a lot of the people listening that want to go into start up world are already there or as well as people from the corporate side. And I know there's a lot of them in this time changed very much interested in innovation and making it happen. What all of interesting examples in your sharing and good luck on a leading player, but not to continue to grow soup, lunching startups and help overall, the assistant innovate. And it's been a pleasure to have you with us.
Mike Zayonc : 33:40
Yes, thanks a lot around. You really appreciate the time and getting some exposure for our program and for any corporations, start ups or any anyone kind of innovation ecosystem that plug and play. We're in open innovation ecosystem, kind of like you, where we wanna work with a broad array of startups and just kind of know what, start officer in the market. So feel free to reach out to me on like an er my email, which is Mike p. N p T c dot com
Radu Palamariu : 34:07
Super. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. If you like what you heard, we should to go to www dot l called global dot com and treat the focus button for all the show. Notes of the interview also subscribed our mailing list to get our latest updates First, if you're listening through a streaming platform like iTunes Spotify arts teacher, we would appreciate a kind of you five star works best to keep us going and our production team happy and, of course, share it with your friends. I most active Arlington. So do feel free to follow me. And if you have any suggestions on what to do and hooting by next, don't hesitate to drop me a note. And if you're looking to hire top executives in supply chain or transform your business, of course, contact us as well to find out how we can help