Tony sits on the Emeritus Council of Advisors for Supply Chain Asia and Chairman of the Transported Asset Protection Association Asia Pacific, a non-profit organization.
Discover more details here.
Some of the highlights of the episode:
Tony sits on the Emeritus Council of Advisors for Supply Chain Asia and Chairman of the Transported Asset Protection Association Asia Pacific, a non-profit organization.
Discover more details here.
Some of the highlights of the episode:
Radu Palamariu: 0:00
this episode is brought to you by Amazon Logistics. The delivery service partner program is in the opportunity of business leaders who want to own and operate their own package delivery business. Get access to Amazon's logistics training and technology, and start building a team of motivated drivers in your community to learn more about becoming an Amazon delivery service partner. Go to logistics that amazon dot hello and welcome to the leaders Inspiration Podcast. I am your host. Rather column Are you managing director of Global? Our mission is to connect the supply Jenna ecosystem in Asia and globally by bringing forward the most interesting leaders in our industry and the very happy to have with us today. Tony Luck Tony sits on the emirate is Council of Advisers for Supply chain Angel and is also the chairman of the top Our association Transported Asset Protection Association of Asia Pacific, which is a nonprofit organization. He's former director of logistics purchasing in the Centre of Excellence for Near Corporation Lear, being the leading tier one global automotive manufacturer, and Tony has been living for the last seven years in Shanghai, China, and knows the situation on the ground very well, and I'm very happy to have him with us today to share his views on what's happening there regarding the Corona virus crisis and how it impacts flinching in China as well as globally. Tony, Thanks for making the time and pleasure to have you with us today.
Tony Lugg: 1:23
They really thank you very much for inviting me to the broadcast
Radu Palamariu: 1:25
places. Let's let's let's start with the with a little bit of the really check of what's going on in in China the moment basically, there's a There's a number of problems face to buy supplies by workers by logistics networks that right now are pretty much choked off because of the Corona virus crisis and because of the different degrees of parenting that the government has instituted. I know that there was also a survey done by the American Chamber in China, which they in which they survey it surveyed about 127 companies on the impact that they see. Maybe let's start by you telling us a little bit about that survey and about your ground on the ground perspective.
Tony Lugg: 2:11
Yes, certainly. Thank you. What is? What is clear is that China is definitely going back to work. However, there are limitations in respect of that. So the radiation survey completed by M. Jim on it was completed this this'll week What they reported as at 48% off their global operations have been impacted by the shot down. So that's a significant number of when you think that's 50% off. The American manufacturers operating here had a have the impact. Um, 78% of the company's do not have sufficient staff to actually run the production line on. There was an interesting article by the Communists, which reported that the migrant workforce is actually 300 million and only 1/3 off that workforce of actually returned to work. So that's reflective in a ll correlated ofhim. What has Bean found inside the survey, which is interesting? 41% of the company's say that lack of staff is a billy biggest challenge of the the next 22 to 4 weeks. So there's a couple of anomalies around that maybe star far available, but the government has a Local governments have have imposed myself quarantine period, So that's an additional 14 day self quarantine period for employees who are returning from other provinces. So if you have a manufacturing location in Shanghai Friends, since any migrant workers that are returning they you know they have to have a proof of address, um, that they have in Shanghai on, of course, in the hay HR department must maintain strict records off that quarantine period, and then that has to be done before they come back to work on a lot event is audited. Um, 30% of the company's actually said logistics issues where their biggest concerns and where do I can see how that's coming around? Um, if you look a term some of the reports that we've seen in the market so far, you know, we know that blank sailings There's been a significant increase in blank sailings that just isn't the freight to pick up eso ever. It's actually cost effective to go into the porters and everything. And even if you do go into the port, many of the ports are reporting significant congestion. So, for instance, the on the cold chain, the number of reefers inside the port now gone over the member of electrical points that they have, and they're unable to to take any more of those reefers. So you were going to see her. Whether knock on effect is continuing on over the next few months, 58% of companies expect demand for their output to be lower than normal. So I think everyone is anticipating that they will be some kind off global impact going forward. Um, look, when we consider that China is the manufacturing base for for the Globe, we can see how that figures arrived. Um, now look, in terms of returning to work, you know, 38% of the company's reporter that didn't have a sufficient Marceau. I think everyone's aware of this global shortage. I'm not just on mask, but the the protective equipment only for the medical start. But even for some of the star for creating in inside of them wth e manufacturing locations, Um, 35% of the company's said that they needed a clearer requirements expectation from the governments. Now they wanted this to really speed up the process off reopening the factories. Most of us came around where, Um, each province seemed to be doing their own thing on, and look, we're in crisis mode, so it's probably difficult for for everyone to agree. A common guideline where company's gonna dear to on a national basis and that can be ordered to by the local government officials on then obviously the factory conveyor open. So each province seems that have their own policy that had seemed to have their own agreement where a company has to write in agreement, you know, stipulating that when they were full of those those policies, procedures, report any illnesses, off staff, et cetera. There's a number of, um, factors which are impacting the the restart of the off business.
Radu Palamariu: 7:09
Quite, quite, quite a lot. And then thanks for sharing some of the very clear and data driven statistics on the ground. And I'm just I can't help thinking that from the knockout effect, right? So in terms of in terms of that and them. But actually I've spoken to people in Europe in people in you sa you also shared before before we went on the record that a lot of them are not yet ready recognizing realizing the full scale of this. But the very soon you know, buffer stocks will be out lead times with pretty much are out. The window. Now how do you see this This spending out in the next couple of I don't know, 4 to 8 weeks, Given the fact that the Lord of the Manufacturers will run out of spare parts, we've already seen that, right. I mean, strictly on the automotive side, that's enough. A few factories that halted production not in China. But you know, Hyun dying in Korea, a few in in Europe, Japan, even us. How? Let's let's talk specifically automotive made people's. Also, it's it's, you know, it's your core industry and you know very well about it. And it's 50% of the manufacturing in hope, eh? Which is currently totally off. How do you see things spending out for the automotive industry in the next 4 to 8 weeks or 12 weeks?
Tony Lugg: 8:20
Yes. So I What we could do really is actually spit that down into into into the free region. So if you look at Asia, um, most invent tree. If it's going by ocean, it would probably be there within two weeks. So if you consider how long this this whole saga has been going on now that means that that any eventually that was on the water prior to the ah Luna holiday. Um, what of everybody being arrived on? And it's probably already consumed. If you look at Europe, that's because we could say that's four weeks transit time by ocean if we look at us six weeks undergoing between 4 to 6 weeks. So if we consider, um, that this crisis now has bean going on for for about four weeks, you know what I would say in the hunt scale? Um, you're right. It doesn't mean that some elementary across the world would now start to be going out. I I cannot believe that the company is gonna I have a lot of entry across the world. We all know the pressures at the moment on reducing invent tree and reducing those carrying costs. So that's gonna be a big risk. Now, if you look at the restart off the surprising, we'll be probably basically gone four weeks without shipping anything. Now, when you consider that four weeks on the water, there's only one way to catch up on it. And that is even to use their free her or two years rail now, specifically, in terms of automotive, um, we know that some manufacturers have actually reported that they had to, um, stop production. Um, mainly because they didn't have that the first parts. But of course, the knock on effect for China now is that even when you restart your supply chain, of course, your tier two suppliers are going to have issues. The limitation with the tea to supplies is that most of these guys do not have any business continuity plans in place. No, they will be suffering the same problems as leading manufacturers in terms off migrant workers coming back Thio work. Um, so they're gonna have those those issues. So I see the raw material I see production on. I see the whole supply chain completely not tone so intense off economic impact. Um, I I for C that this is gonna take several months to actually get back on track on, then tried to look as we was talking about earlier. Even if I managed to get my factory up on money within a couple of weeks to fulfill to to actually start filling that supply chain again the anyway, I can really do it. It is by air freight. Or if I'm lucky enough that my customers are in Europe. Mm. I can obviously start to use the rail. But one thing we do know is that if you look at the air capacities, um, the freighters are now sorry into coming to Shanghai mainly to replace the lack of space from commercial way. Don't anticipate the return of commercial flights until May June. Tone. So what does that mean? It means that one of that capacity on belly freight has now disappeared. So we've already seen the spike up air prices, um, over the last four weeks. But once everyone starts trying to get that capacity out the door on customs, they're screaming for that trait that they ever end. I anticipate that that cost is going to spike even further. Um, and of course, that's gonna happen. A financial impact to those organizations. There is no way to actually get enough the door quicker. The only solution I could think off is is obviously using as much capacity on rail. But of course, you know that depends on the lead time. It's you can be anything between 18 to 25 plays on the rail. Um, and then, furthermore, one of the one opportunity that certainly that I would recommend that manufactures look at is this too, Actually, you know, once the transportacion gets back, happened running and bring China's to actually look up. Um, using Hong Kong or even Vietnam is one of the gateways, um, shipping cross border on, then basically using Eva, Hong Kong or Hanoi to we'll have doing even to to get product out. No, this just should still be good capacity there. Now, certainly in the in the past, that's what I've done. When we had an operation in Vietnam, we had capacity issues there. What we actually do way trucked everything down to Bangkok. So I would recommend everyone seriously looked at a za way off trying to mitigate their costs.
Radu Palamariu: 13:42
And I want to ask you, Tony, cause you you obviously in your last roll it Lear, you were directly involved in logistics for automotive tier one supplier. So if you were to put yourself in the shoes of running the logistics are running a supply chain for an automotive company in this week's and times, and I guess you're lucky that you're not. But if you are be put into that, that situation, and we've we've seen, Ah, you know, we've seen pretty extreme cases. It was reading on on one famous famous website yesterday that basically, people are resorting to pretty Let's say extreme measures of carrying parts in suitcases and even personally delivering depending on on the on the importance of the spare parts. But what is something that you can do? Actually, how would you you know, how would you plan or sort of make make sense and and find solutions in this type of situations? If you were in the shoes of some of this executor
Tony Lugg: 14:41
there, Look, it's a good question. And look, you know, automotive is probably one of the toughest industries that you could be in on in terms off off logistics. Hey, you have some angry internal customers in Europe, some angry external customers. So you know what? One of the one of the things I realized is that if I could keep customers happy on both sides, you know, um, you know, I was I was winning on and look ready. What? What? I what I did to you? Um you know, you You know, we heard the as you mentioned the case of the suitcase being used. And I can assure you, you know, when it comes to an emergency situation, you will use any means to get the product there. But most of it actually comes from the skill off being able Thio, make sure you have the right supplies. Make sure that you have the right relationships with customs and other authorities on then in times of emergencies, when they know that you're, ah good complying company when they when they know that. So you have that reputation that you know you're not doing anything untoward. Um, you know, General Lee's thes agencies will allow that degree of flexibility to support you. So, you know, we talked about moving product in suitcases, which is, you know, you know, in detective, But, you know, on one occasion I actually had a Corea motorbike. Hey was actually allowed to once the plane had to arrived in Bangkok and taxied. You know, he was allowed to actually take his bike up toothy play in Muzi, unload of the park. Hey, literally structure on the back of the bike. And, um, there's all cleared in advance and he went out of the airport and we stopped a line down situation. So I think, you know, knowing your supplies or was or certainly, you know, reach out to people in the market who are in the note. Because even if your supplier can't do it, there's always somebody that has the solution. So, you know what I would say is, don't ever accept Noah's Asan answer. There's always a way to do it on. One thing I found is that in the time I was with clear corporations, you know, we we've managed to keep our customers running because we had all those process backup plans in place. We already knew the capability off our supplies. And, you know, I would always recommend to to to every logistics director out there, you know, learn. You're no use appliance on dhe. You know, if you have a good supply and they need that sort of level of development and then do that, um, sit them of him on work out somehow you can help him develop, haven't and obviously incentivize him to do that,
Radu Palamariu: 17:44
huh? And switching a little bit to the consumer to the consumer electronics industry. And we've seen some announcements from Apple coming out in folks gone there, Their provider that that most likely production will be significantly delayed and they expect lead times of 23 weeks. I think on new deliveries, which even that might be optimistic again who bay itself? The center of the epicenter of the Corona virus outbreak is about 25% manufacturing of electronics over again. Fairly significant. Chunk, um is locked down until you know a media march, most optimistically and possibly even later. How do you see? How do you see? How do you see this pretty particular sector? Because also, there was a statistic that I saw that China as a whole, manufacturing in China as a whole. It accounts for about 30% of the state parts and parts used for different electronic devices and components. So how are the electronic manufacturers going to cope with this?
Tony Lugg: 18:50
Well, you know, I truly believe I have a significant issue. So look, as we mentioned earlier, if you look at the raw material suppliers that are going to basically, um, bring those products into those electronics companies, um, we already discussed the fact that these these supplies generally on not that sophisticated on dhe I don't mean that in a derogatory way. It's just that the business model underpass is basically just bean to produce the product on dhe shipping. The focus on building resilience into the business hasn't always been there. Now, there are some suppliers I do who are forward thinking, you know, they're looking at all of these opportunities, um, and that they already have the, You know, I would say of ants tow business continuity plans in place. Um, okay. When we look at some of the results being shown, maybe there was too much reliance put on one location. But if I could just give the example of the Japan earthquake, Um, you know, there was one semiconductor supplier, um, who share price dropped like a stone. Joined that unfortunate. And then but there was another semiconductor suppliers who share price actually went through the roof. So they were able to basically take up the slack in the in the market because, you know, they had that plan. Then they had that global manufacturing. So going back to China specifically, I mean, we look att. Guangdong. You know, that accounts for 28.8% export share of the off the national total. So when you consider that Guandong really isn't fully up operational, some firms have Bean requested not to start production tool marks first. Then there's gonna be sitting a significant impact there on, as you quite rightly mentioned, when you look a TTE grew hen Andi who be province again. You know, uh, that is probably going to be closed until mid March. At least. The government rule obviously realized that, you know, that's the epicenter. And they really have got to fix that issue there, I think. What if I can control that? Then, um, you know that will hopefully and the problem report for China. I think we're still gonna have clusters going forward on then. So when I start looking at this, those supply chains, if they're anticipating three weeks, I'm not sure if it's actually going toe happen. God says we already said, You know, when you think of it, when you restart production line, we have to one has is there the raw material available, too? If it hasn't been delivered, how we gonna get it delivered? Because we know that there's trucking shortages. We've been China at the moment So there's a willingness to ship, however, is not the availability when a capacity in the market, too, to move the products. That is, um, I think there's a lot of consequential knock on effects, which maybe he hadn't being taken into consideration. I think there's some assumption that everything is gonna be okay after the state. But a ZAY just mentioned, you know, this virus isn't gonna go away. We know it's highly contagious and assumes you have another cluster of events. You know, you say, going to be another knock on a thing. So I think there's some way to go yet. Ready?
Radu Palamariu: 22:38
Yeah. And also, I mean, in just strictly geographically speaking, who happens to be for people that have not yet looked at the map happens to be fairly central in the in the in the center of China and and, you know, just ah, the fact that the transit Times and all of that and not mean because it's being under lock down, is it's also not going to make things easy, even in the next 234 months. So it's Yeah, it's a hole. It's a whole consequential type of behavior that will follow. So I'm just I'm just wondering cause for now, for the stock market, for the most of the companies, that hasn't been a huge impact. I mean, obviously, there has been some impact. There has been some negative effects, but not not tremendous yet. But, you know, bluntly asking you, Tony, do you think this will lead to an economic crisis?
Tony Lugg: 23:27
Well, you know, already, I I've been watching the stock market very closely on this. And you can, you know, one day as you mentioned it, it goes down the next day it goes up. So the you know, oil seems to be taking a hit at the moment on gas, et cetera. No looking, but it comes to, um, electron ICS. When it comes to some of the consumer markets, We've seen some retailers actually already declare, you know, that they're going to have revenue impact. Um, for that period? No, look, personally, I I think companies that aren't declaring at the moment are slightly naive because obviously that the impact will come sooner or later on the course. Um I think declaring it early, I think it's the right thing to do, but so you do have this market correction straightaway Now, whether the market correction is at the level it needs to be, I'm not sure that it is because I don't I don't think what's been taken into account is Theoden anal costs, which we're going to be, um, taken by these things Cos basically trying to restart the business. So as you can imagine, even when they do start, you know, bigger probably you'd be putting double shifts on running the plant to maximum capacity, so this would be a lot of overtime costs. We've already spoken about the expedite. So the expedited freights with the air rates that are going to be put in place, it really could wipe out some of the profit margins on some of the products that that all being shipped. So I think that they weren't. You know, there's not only the negative sales revenue, there's also the additional, um, what I would say iceberg or hidden costs which haven't necessarily been taken into account s so that's gonna have ah ah ah, big factor on on the on the reporting. So I personally I when I've actually I've actually dumped her all of my shares at the moment I am. I'm now sitting tight, waiting to see what's gonna happen, especially once the you know, we get nearer to that Cuban close. I think there will be a market depression. That's what I That's what I believe on DA when I I you know, Look at some of the the analyst's report out there. You know, there is a mixture in the, you know, being reported as you mentioned. But you know, even when I look out what the Communists presented recently, you know, they quite runny, saying that the world is dependent on China. That is true. 90% of the trade is done by sea. So as we mentioned, you know, if you've already had 50 blank sailings, what does that say? That's that's a lot of product that has not been picked up and there's not going to the markets on the course. Then if you look a TTE, you know whether the factories could get up that production rate with the labor shortages. You know, I think everyone's right in downgrade in the whole global economy. And of course, if you look at China specifically, um, you know, analysts are putting the several figures out there. You know, we're looking at 0.5% point reduction, Um, which is colossal considering that you China is 17% off the the world's global judy piece. So, personally, I I do see that there are some knock on the things I might do. I think one thing that we should be very cautious about is that, as I mentioned earlier, you know Ah, don't be pessimistic on it's what I want. I want everyone to be thinking office. Hey, how do I offset this? Because if we look att, tthe e increases outside of trying that we've seen a sudden spike within Japan, we've seen the, you know, the figures double in in Korea in one day. Um, and of course, you know Singapore is is also in Taiwan are also impacted. Now, look, those four countries alone, um, our our big global players. And so if if we do have continuous clusters growing and and clearly the authorities are struggling to trace, uh, through the contract tracing and basically locate the source of the infection, then there could be significant knock on effects. We've been those those four countries
Radu Palamariu: 28:09
I'm you know, since I'm in Singapore, I'll add my to lead my two cents on it. And I must say that they have done a very good job in terms off. Well, one communication to also managing toe mostly trace and contain the, um, the clusters here in Singapore. But Singapore is one city. So in some ways is much, much easier to do than in a country like Japan or Korea, for example Taiwan, for that matter. But he has hopefully, you know, hopefully this does stay within within control. And, uh, because if if we're gonna have different clusters in other, different countries than then, obviously that will even complicate things further. But on them, let's say, on the constructed, pragmatic and practical side, what are some of the things that companies do also, from a business continuity perspective from, you know, very practical. And maybe, um uh, yeah, um, from from a sense of what can you do to make sure that you're you're mitigating your risks? You know, we've seen Ah Mei. You know, my wife's workplace and it's a fairly common practice. They split the teams into two teams Team A and Team B, and every week they go alternatively to work so they don't expose the whole work for so stuff like that. What are some of the thoughts that the and what you've seen the place to Tony in terms of what companies can do from business, content to respect.
Tony Lugg: 29:32
Now look, it's a good question and follow it follows on from them. That survey that was completed by International Crisis Room 360 so 60% off. The respondents from that survey said they had no business continuity plans for their trying to supply Ching. Now, hey, even if we allowed for some margin of error there that it's still a significant amount of companies who who did no have that plan in place. So what we've seen is that there are a number companies like basically racing around to try and catch up now and then. Look, business continuity is not something that you can just catch up to you like this. You know, as you know, you need some planning. Um, but it's not just planning it. See, it's the training of the staff, making sure the staff under know how to implement that plan, as you quite rightly say in some of these production plants. You know, we have that opportunity is to set people up into teams that you quite right. You mentioned where those teams do know have any interaction with any other teams on dhe. Look, obviously that's got to be fully managed by human resource. Look only in specifically in China with the rest there. You know, what I would suggest to all companies is that make sure you follow the government regulation. Don't take any shortcuts. You know, do not fall foul off the government during this time. I don't think they will. They would take any any fortification off documentation. Likely. I think any companies that are not playing ball here will be severely punished On the positive side. Look, in terms off the we'll be looking at mitigating risk, especially the financial risk. You know, I would suggest that, cos look out for the government relief initiatives which are are coming. Ah, online now. You know, get him. Have a look at those on dhe. See where you can benefit leverage off a look in terms of your supplies, many of these supplies and they're gonna encounter cash flow problems. Um, so look, att, tthe e blast me. One is joined. Your recovery process is for your actual supplier to actually go under, not be able to pay their starve the staff walk away. So, you know, I would say urgently. Look at all of your supply base in China, you know, sit down with them. Discuss what their financial cash flows are again. Help them with any government relish relief initiatives that are apparent on book. You know, I would say one thing that we should all be doing do moving forward is that we should look at this as an opportunity to really map. How are whole process? What areas of our process could we actually all to mate? So if you look at the sort of key areas of the business which have bean sort of Ah, I would say affected by this virus, which areas of your business now could be more automated in terms off staff, working from home. You know, we seems good examples where staff have been able to communicate on that. There's his ways of measuring that productivity s o. The company, you know, carries on with its ah, gold. However, there are a lot of companies that happen been able to do that? You know, there there are articles on lying where, you know, they're turning to different platforms to basically try and get their staff working. Um, there's been a lot of strain on the on the i T. But there's been a lot of opportunities. Well, you know, we've seen in schools where schools. Now we're going to that online platform I my own Children who have actually gone into the online platform. And look, it's been quite successful. So there is. There is an opportunity not only to look at your production lines, but also look at your your digital transformation. How could you all to make more of these processes? Um, you know, some companies have actually got there Should service is, um, and controlled towns based in we hand. So you know what? What is the impact? Their where was the mirrors and litigating plan for that? That that could that have been done better Can it be done online? Things about nature. So I think a lot of companies should be looking at those on, but I think going forward, um, also to look at your supply base so we look at the Japan case we had, we had the tsunami in Japan. The company of actually was impacted by the share price Trump, The rubber location was in Thailand who suffered the floods that same time that year of you be, if you remember, so they literally right out their production. But someone of their competitors, um, had, um, head production in each region. And of course, they were able to switch at capacity, which which obviously boosted there. So I was in the share price. So
Radu Palamariu: 34:48
I think there's a
Tony Lugg: 34:48
number of things that companies can do. But I think one of the key things, if we consider 60% didn't have business continuity plans in place. You know, that's an opportunity now for the board to really look at this and and I have a rethink on how your your whole business model, how you're set up, you know, on the employee somebody who's got that innovation and that knowledge on how to run a business continuity plan, uh, to make sure that you have a sustainable business going forward that
Radu Palamariu: 35:23
Tony Lugg: 35:23
robust, that it's resilient because if you look a TTE, you know, even though when I look, look at, uh, the tooling costs. Now, how many times have we heard companies saying, Hey, we don't want toe have ajob supply because of the tooling cost for the the tooling costs? Oh, absolutely travel. If you look at the actual cost impact now on, I think that probably be a lot of B. P's from the supply chain purchasing teams, et cetera, who will be sort of kicking themselves that they didn't make that investment in terms off having extra additional cooling costs and on dhe setting up her another location. You know, in the event there were obviously that we know there's that's always difficult to do when I was always gonna be that sort of a cost issue. However, if you look a TTE wth e the advantages of being able to produce material and get it to your customer, you know that does put you ahead of the curve in terms off some of the manufacturers out there.
Radu Palamariu: 36:26
And, uh, I mean, I I didn't know this number 60%. It's mind blowing to me. If they didn't have any sort of business continues to plan, I think you know, they're they're in pretty difficult situation at the moment. Even if you did have a business continues to plan. To be honest, I don't think anybody could have even planned or thought of something of this magnitude. And then I was it. Ah, A recent supply Jin event. The round table in which we were discussing that basically, crisis mode is the new normal normal mode. So Okay, this is the right, totally, you know, totally blown out of proportion crisis. But before this, you know, we had just in Asia, we had the volcano in Philippines eruption. Then you had the you're on conflict. You're on us. Then you had the bunch of other things. It's one thing leading to another thing and leading to another thing. So it just seems like, if you know, cos really need to get very good at business continuity because it's just on your norm, Um, great sharing things for, you know, things for I think I'm hopefully the listeners and especially people from from, you know, from Europe from from the North, America from South America, listening and goto, you know, go to a better picture in terms of what is happening right now in Asia. and, you know, fingers crossed that the situation gets under control, that the production will be resumed sooner rather than later. And, um, yeah, thanks a lot for for joining us, Tony, and for sharing your post today, I think you have much to do. I mean, I enjoy digging the conversation. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening. If you like what you heard, we should to go to www dot l called global dot com and treat the podcast button for all the show Notes of the interview. Also subscribe to our mailing list to get our latest updates First, if you're listening through a streaming platform like iTunes Spotify arts teacher, we would appreciate a kind of you five star works best keep us going and our production team happy and, of course, share it with your friends. I most active Arlington. So do feel free to follow me. And if you have any suggestions on what what to do and hooting by next, don't hesitate to drop me a note. And if you're looking to hire top executives in supply chain or transform your business, of course, contact us as well to find out how we can help