Paul has a global background, being born in Thailand and raised in California. Although he got a BA in anthropology at the University of California Berkeley in 2000, he caught the internet bug early and got a sales job at Ask.com in the U.S. Earlier in 2012, he had already launched Advent Capital in Thailand, to seed e-commerce firms around Southeast Asia, which sparked his idea to start aCommerce. 5 years later aCommerce is now the leading e-commerce service provider in Southeast Asia bringing brands and retailers online to reach consumers in the world's fastest-growing markets in SE Asia. And in the most recent funding round in November 2017 raised more than $65 million. Now boasting 1400 staff across 5 countries and 9 fulfillment centers.
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Hello and welcome to the leaders in supply chain podcast. I am your host radical Mario global supply chain practice, hyper Morgan Phillips executive set specializing in global board level and executive search. My job is also to connect you with worldwide experts, thought leaders, entrepreneurs and executives in all things supply chain today is, it is my pleasure to have with us Paul[inaudible] who is basically um, the CEO, although a commerce forehead's, a very extensive and global background being born in Taiwan and raised in California. He got his BA in anthropology at the University of California Berkeley in 2000 but called the Internet but early and go the sale job. But after coming to the US, um, together with his brother was the director, the bedtime working that apple, they both decided they wanted to become entrepreneurs, sleek, clean bid jobs, moved back to Thailand to look for opportunities and decided to focus on online advertising. We a credit card debt. They managed to fund the startup new media edge in 2006 and which went on to be acquired for about 8 million. Even while running new media eight edge, they start in the second permanent ad network business and index in 2007 which they ended up selling it to the Indian protocol knew down in 2012 for 36 minutes, Paul started his third venture and so in 2010 after seeing the Groupon phenomenon us and similar to the US social media per meeting socially in October, 2012 for an undisclosed sum but also ordinary in 2012 he had already launched at the Capitol in Thailand to see ecommerce firms around Southeast Asia. And basically this also sparked his idea to start a course. Five years later today a congress is the leading ecommerce service provider in Southeast Asia and bringing brands and retainers online to reach consumers in the world's fastest growing markets, which are really did the monuments in Southeast Asia and in the most recent finding around in November, 2017 eco almost raising more than 65 million and now boasting 1,400 stuff, five countries and ninth of Gilliland centers. So it's a pleasure to welcome you here with us, Paul, and to find out more about the, about ecommerce, about the story and,Speaker 2:
and your journey. So Park. Sure. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So for us, how we, why we started a commerce really was from the background that we were in, which was in media and advertising and ecommerce. And when you look at why, why does background was so relevant for a commerce was, you know, ecommerce today where end to end ecommerce enabler. And so we help brands, retailers really with everything from marketing content all the way to retail and logistics. And we'll read what we call end to end. And really we provide this across five different markets. Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, Singapore and Malaysia. And you know, from the previous businesses, when you think about a funnel and you think about that, the very top, there's media and then there's advertising. And then from that advertising, what do people want to do? Click to go purchase ECOMMERCE. But their biggest challenges that we faced in Southeast Asia was the logistics piece to be able to execute ecommerce. And so for the first three Priebus bid businesses, it was really in the top of the funnel, right? And what we discovered was that, you know, ecommerce as we were building being so good at daily deals, business us, we looked at how do we start to pivot or marketplace like snap deal or like Companion Korea, right? We, we really stumbled on to a very difficult problem, which was logistics. And that was about 2012. And so this is really why, you know, we built a commerce was number one, we wanted to solve the logistics problems, specifically B to c fulfillment and last mile delivery. And we figured that once we saw that, that we could basically move up the value chain, did the demand generation, right? Which is marketing content and um, and, and retail, right? So eight commerce really started out first with looking at how can we help our existing portfolio companies we invested into with their logistics needs. And from that, you know, and we realized that look, you know, not only did that, um, the company's invested in the art and capital needed and logistics, but we actually started to get a lot of brands and retailers asking us, can you help us? Can you just fix and we can help us enter then. And that was really the beginning of ecommerce use. You know, we built it from a real need from not only our existing portfolio companies, but actually also, you know, brands and retailers. Interesting.Speaker 3:
I mean it's almost like you stumbled across the nude ribo investing in other companies. Then you realize, okay, this is something that is not addressed. You kind of scratch your own itch and then you found that you found gold at the end of the tunnel.Speaker 2:
Yes, exactly. And the guys that we were investing into, you know, we actually stood up already capper, which was really aimed at ecommerce and we're funding about 12 different plus companies in the ecommerce space. They all had the same problem. They'll just sticks. And so as we know, either a, you're kind of fun, these guys to build their own logistics, which were, you know, kind of 20 year olds or you know, we as a group would actually help provide that. So we were dabbling in at first until we realized how big the opportunity could be. But actually, you know, it required also a lot of resources. And so that's where we decided to, I guess tripled down on to really be able to provide that infrastructure out here. MaybeSpeaker 3:
tell us a little bit clients because I think the case studies we did with your class, because I think you work from really big brands in terms of bringing them to market here in Southeast Asia as well. This small list, maybe you can give us a big brand. They're a small little shirts. And the brand example,Speaker 2:
um, you know, in the, when you first started we were working, we were working with a lot of different startups and we were even supporting some of the really big marketplaces like Amazon. The big retailers today are, we know, we really focus on more of the kind of fortune 500 brands. So when you think about, you know, the FMCG category, whether it's Unilever, proctor and gamble, L'Oreal group, um, you know, so really across everything from Johnson and Johnson. So a lot of the big brands that really, you know, I mean are trying to reach the more pet channel, reach multiple different channels. So we, we do everything from doing the marketing for them and building the brand site, uh, putting them on marketplaces, helping them with the customer service all the way to fulfillment, warehousing, order or order management all the way down to delivery. Right? So we do the full Intiman. So some of these brands that, you know, Fmcu per example, we work with also electronic brands, Phillips, Samsung, um, so in HP as well. So really, you know, quite a different range. We plan to cover in at the top four categories. Um, FMCG health and beauty, fashion as well as electronics. And in fashion, for example, you know, we work with clients like Adidas, no Adidas in Indonesia as we localize, you know, their site, you have to Adidas that sealed that Id. Um, you know, when new first started in do just generating very, I would say probably five digit, um, you know, uh, Gmv, um, uh, a month. Right? And it's a, in terms of their revenues they were selling and you know, we would basically, you know, 10 times that grew that business 10 times in less than six months, right? Like just localizing for Indonesia, meaning local content, local currency, delivery times within two days. Um, and so this is where now I think a lot of brands that localized in each country, especially countries like Indonesia can really reap the benefits. Um, and that's what we provide, which is the kind of the four and doin clients like L'Oreal, we worked with them across the region. Um, and you know, why, why the value end to end is really that it's not just, you know, you've worked with one, one vendor, right, that can basically provide all these services but rather that that data that you collect is actually, you know, you're able to centralize all that data and capture, right that data under one platform. And so for us, we have what we call an integrated unified commerce system that allows you to be able to track and manage everything from your marketing to your retail all way down to logistics. And what that really means in general is for example, clients like when they changed their, you know, their marketing or their banner ad from red to pink for example. We can show where we go that, you know, from just changing the color, changing the tax on their ads. What did that you, what would the return number sign up first time buyer activating, don't meet buyer. We Pete buyers, what, what payment that they use? Credit card bank transfer cod. Noah's 5% actually come phone orders, right? And you can show them as well in Newark with the skew is the level of the what's selling well, so long tail of their, their products, 40% actually coming from long tail. It's other products that aren't available offline or all the way down to a heat map or basically where their sales are coming from by geography. Right? So what the end to end that that entering data allows you to be able to do, to provide for our client is you know, for every ad that they do, you can show them that increased sales in this specific city when this demographic and that kind of level of data isn't really available currently in the offline world. Right? And this is where online is incredibly valuable to be able to provide that level of granularity. As companies invest more in advertising, they're immediately built to see the yield and return. None of that is incredibly, incredibly important because everybody into this well and these often data is up the clean data to be more precise, right? And they want to see mine. It wasn't my hour. Why message? Finally, there's some way to meet. You can determine basically people like yourself can you've done that, take your data as you said it in a supermarket are difficult to kind of trace and track what happened. Um, despite aggressive. Then the fact that you've managed and got good example, if you mentioned 10 x there that are revenue within the span of six months is pretty, yeah, pretty and also based anomaly just of the stage at each of the markets localize in a quite unique, right. Then if you are able to give the consumers that individual localized experience and much more likely to bind big the dynamics of each market and then obviously for example, Singapore, I mean just two ports of Leo's, 70% of all the orders come from Singapore, from cross border overseas where obviously Thailand and Indonesia are much more believable and the basket size in Thailand really averages around$30 but in Indonesia it's half of that. And even in the Philippines, very similar to Indonesia. Right. What that means is that, you know, when you basically do ecommerce in these markets, you have to, you know, depending again on what category would vertical that you're right that you have to speak about bundling your products, makes the unit economics that allowed you to actually make money, even add on delivery costs. So the ability to bundle is incredibly important. And in fact, probably half the revenue in our business is really around being able to bundle products together because the cost of delivering that in Indonesia, it's incredibly expensive with the tens of thousands of islands or in the Philippines. And so in those markets, bundling is two important future ecommerce. Yes, yes. Let me ask you this. And then you basically founded several regional startups. Um, now you're, you're running are you used to have your, your, you're running a commerce, you've got to wear them on both sides of the table. What's your favorite role and why? Um, I actually realized I wasn't a good investor, right? Because, you know, for me, I would be kind of, our co immediately turned to go on the other side of the table to help the entrepreneur, okay, this is how you should be actually fixing it, doing it or etc. Right. And I thought that I still had some years. It mean to really, I still had the passion to build and to this day I still actually prefer to bill than to events. Um, and really, you know, art and capital, we put that, you know, 20 million to work. Um, and, and really, you know, my, my focus today is not 100% in a commerce, but I do still make angel investments. Um, you know, just roughly around four, even in the last, uh, last year. Um, and I invest into areas that I see, you know, because we're pretty, for example, pretty, uh, deep in terms of being able to see kind of the trends. Right. So, you know, invested into a company called the helps there. There was actually no, we were outsourcing us on demand staffing for blue collar workforce and we don't, we when we needed stabbing meeting for warehousing and these guys said, look, we can get you on demand stat, boom. And that was such an interesting value proposition from an help sooner and that's why I'm being invested. But because we knew that it wouldn't be just us that needed this solution, but many other companies across the region. So that's how I tend to invest from a personal perspective. But you know, for us as a commerce, um, we started the business in 2013 and now we're growing across the region. We obviously for us just very much laser focused on Southeast Asia and actually going very deep. Right. And what I mean by that is a lot of people think that ecommerce is just beat scene to consumer. Right. And could be B to c business to consumer is still fairly young in these markets. I mean, that's the markets and babied. In fact, these Asia actually evolve from CQC first, you know, think, you know, Facebook kind of classified sites, right? And guns. Correct. And that's majority actually of southeast data, but now beat deceased going to unfold. And of course the next one is B, two B, right? But when you look at more mature markets like Korea, like China, right? B Two B is actually, you know, 70 to 80% of the market, right? We're starting to see is much smaller. We know we're actually involving reverse in Southeast Asia. So for a commerce, when we actually help our brand, no, for example like Unilever or Procter and gamble, these guys, we're not just thinking how can I help you feel beat to c perspective? We actually, what we look at what we call B two all right, which is whether it's beat to see whether it's a consumer, whether it's a small business, whether it's a big business moping national with its government, right? Um, employees that you know, you're selling to a variety of different retail channels in the digital space. You get to manage that under one centralized, under one centralized inventory system. And we feel that the, our markets are going to kind of leapfrog in some ways. The, where you're not kind of, you know, do p two B, then five years later it goes into, you know, beat the c and then to see, we think that brands today in Southeast Asia and our clients are actually looking at the beat too. All right. And then companies like Samsung for example, we started helping them with the B two B and the B two B, B two employees on billing, employee network. And then now they, they're actually looking at how do I extend further outside of BD Btby. Right. And obviously going B to c, right. So did you know the, the, the opportunities very interesting out here in that kind of did the companies the way the, no, because the evolution of our market has been kind of post us Europe and China and so they're kind of taking all these learnings and leap frog and certain things where you look at mobile, you know, 70% 80% of the orders now coming in mobile. Right. And that's kind of like interesting leap fromSpeaker 3:
absolutely. Tell us a little bit, cause I think there's, there's an important story that if they are for the start on both of the, or the startup founders want to be on listen to the podcast as well as some people that just aren't, just because you went from Sabre potentially regional ups who are on that journey.Speaker 2:
Yeah. So I mean, in our advice kind of fundraising strategy is that, you know, obviously a lot of startup, they would like to raise as much as they can, right? But you know, if you can really articulate, you know exactly how much you're gonna spend that specific amount of money. Uh, an example would be, let's say I want to expand from one country into another country and I need that to say$2 million for that. Right? You know, you go out to the, but I'm planning to expand, invest in tech and expand in a new market. I need 2 million right now. How well you are, particularly that story is really what's going to get you on additional funding on top of that too. Right? And it's, there's nothing, no better feeling than to be oversubscribed. So instead of going out and saying, look, I'm going to raise 6 million to expand it to three countries, you're actually better off single. I'm going to expand to one country with this 2 million. And if I get more, I might go to a new country. And what happens is that, you know, one set, two millions filled up, you know, that you, you kind of get that, you know, um, in a fear of missing out that fomo where other investors now I want to end and then you can actually get to the end result of six months. Right? Um, and maybe even more, right? So that would be my advice, which is make sure you really articulate how you plan to spend that too. And then you can articulate incredibly well if you're lucky, you can even get up to 10. Um, especially with how aggressively investors are today. Yes. The fundamental is make sure your stories, right? Yes, there is key. Yes. Correct. And don't, you know, into high, because some companies will really, you know, the valuation right there will overvalue their business. Um, and you know, it's actually, you know, you got to also think about, you know, do you actually want to create a good deal for multiple different investors? So you get to actually choose you investor versus kind of out pricing yourself of the market. And when you outprice meaning your valuations too high, it's very difficult to kind of go back and get tail tucked between your legs and go, oh, sorry about that. So it's a bit of a science, but I would recommend that, you know, actually to not go too high. Um, and to be in the very early stages, make sure that you actually find and get the right investor and you know, try to figure out what price is right for that, right, for that investor that you want. Yeah. What are some of the key points of the startups should master to successfully go regionally? That's a big thing. Again, going back to the least understood different. So what are some of the fundamentals that they need to get with that? Number one, if you aren't in one market and you're going to expand in your, let's say you have four of three or four services in that one market, but you really need to think about as you know, rather than just three or four services in another market, we need to think about what product or what service should you go into that market with. That gives you that advantage, right? And then once you get that product going in that market, then you can scale into other products and services. So really figuring out what that probably got playbook. You need the playbook, which product first do the market analysis, your research, and then you basically go pick which product is best for this market. And then you create the playbook, the processes, right? To be able to launch into that market when watching lots in that market, you know, when you're successful, then expand further, right? So don't kind of go in, you know, kind of offer everything and once it's done spreading this correct. And I think that, and then you even have the option, you want to go into a new market with that product, right? Or do you want to go deeper into that market in a, we've just been more services. That's a big gap going to be depending on, you know, the opportunity that you see. Yes, yes. Pick one. Um, you are, you are an example of a tie start and you actually, you actually started in Thailand, in Bangkok, I think it was in the middle of the cool and listened to it. Right. So then it does, it's funny, there's a funny story in there. Um, did it help you that you start to the, in Thailand, you know, would it have been easier to start somewhere else? I mean, what's, what's your thoughts on bit looking back as a group of founders? We actually, no, we tend to believe that, you know, tackling harder markets create more value and meaning that when you think about Thailand market, um, I think that Singapore and Malaysia, usually the typical markets that companies global companies will launch. We felt that, you know, the land market is a closed market close to language, you know, so everything has to be very low. And usually what's great about launching in markets like would be similar to let's say Japan or Korea, right? Where it's like very close to manage market, building a business and learning the nuances or the organization is valuable. Right? As we built that out in Thailand, we immediately knew that Indonesia was going to be similar in that spread. So but at a much larger market. So we use Thailand, you know, to really understand the nuances of kind of a local last night language. Now of course as we expanded to Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, we tend to group that has like the English language speaking markets that I would say a little bit easier to launch with. And from that that's like let's say are what we call our tier two and that's where for some companies it really depends on the capability of your team. If your team has experienced with already, you know, building companies to Southeast Asia, you can obviously go with the hard markets first because I think that it gives you a competitive advantage and even as you expand and get into, for example, markets like Singapore, you're actually become in Singapore, meaning that Singapore companies tend to actually want to expand to Southeast Asia. So when you set up in Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, most of our clients, especially out here are asking great, like, you know, we'd love to work with you guys in those markets. Or by the way, do you have a local operations? Of course, which we do today, but East Asia in Singapore is, you know, we call, we have kind of a top down strategy. We're also going to local providers, I mean global partners locally, but then you have top down, bottom up. It's incredibly powerful value proposition. Yes, no, absolutely. Um, what is, what is the for, for ecommerce or something, what would be the result of mixing most typically because you've accepted some companies? Uh, so we didn't do that or would we build it to last? Or what's your thoughts as you exited, as I vaccinated, that they know the various different companies? Do you learn a lot about, you know, we, we were in models where we were absorbed completely the business and you know, we have to work within t:
hat Colton or that corporate structure in some ways or we were left Independent.Speaker 2:
Um, you know, I think that the options of today are incredible. So that means that, you know, what, what are, what's the ideal, the ideal would be allowing some of the shareholders to be able to sell a little bit, right? And in the secondary market, because you know, your, your, your business and your brand and your stock is valuable right now, not just so a little bit. So people can either buy homes, buy cars, and I'm talking about staff and whatnot. And then really you have the opportunity to go big. Right? Um, and so, you know, gone are the days where basically in founders and employees that they were kind of have to be stuck in or be a station until the exit. Right? And sometimes that creates kind of, you know, unscalable unhealthy behavior. And with the options today with new, whether it's you invested by existing investors, you know, I think that there's a lot of options and I think that companies, I know today, they get those options in the way, those options I would say on a quarterly basis because obviously, you know, if the market gets incredibly competitive and all of a sudden, you know, you're, you lose your number one lead and you become a number two or number three, right? Merging with a competitor, you know, the number two and number three to take out, number one might make sense or a bigger entity and corporation that can give you that in the back. And then the fund infrastructure might also be the bet and then then the next option. Right. So it really depends. I think the timing of the market and with the market conditions are, um, I think every, I think every founder aspires to take a company public and see, you know, kind of the baby grow into something much bigger. And that's the dream. But from my perspective is that, you know, I'm very much just laser focus at the moment on just getting us to profitability. And then once you get to profitability, you basically have control of your destiny. Right. And I think that that is where, you know, really just very laser focused in on that. And once we get that in order for us, um, in, in, into horizon, um, and we've actually as a, B, two B business, you know, this bit much different than a beat to see. But um, you know, it's really a bucket into profitability. And then from there, you know, I think that the sky is the limit and you have all different options that you have, even more options than you had before. Yes, very, very much showing. And just to of add to that, the, in terms of options, because I had the, we had on book just a few episodes ago, started a company called Yohji. And interestingly enough, what they did is, and I hadn't had that before. Well they did very early in the company. They went public on the Australian stock exchange and basically bed because you have to go close to the due diligence and forced them one to set up a very strong foundation for all their due diligence processes, finances, so they forced them to start the company a very solid, I mean everything was open, open, but growth for the investors, money and all. They have of course thousands of investors because this is a way to do things which probably three years ago and not even the books and now as you rightfully said, there's this quite a few instruments, alternatives available. Just a matter of what makes more sense. Let's talk a little bit about technology trends, ecommerce trends on everybody's lips. What do you see as the most prominent things like block drive, the one do you see, especially in relation to their ecommerce suspicion in of ecommerce and what you're doing as the main trends in ecommerce in general? I think all the retailers or the distributors, right? Thinking about how do I cross border the world is becoming more global. Know. I do see that there's a couple of trends where in our China market starts to open up globally, right? Companies have to really start to figure out some ways the value proposition, right? Meaning that in Southeast Asia, as you can see the influx of Chinese goods, right cross border from Alibaba with Mazada acquisition. You know, how did the local businesses, local conglomerate, right? Local companies, the main competitive, right, especially with you know, all the products and flooding the market. And I do feel that, you know, companies are going to have to start to look at the manufacturing, the OEMs on here. How did he have, how can you start going, right? Because if they don't start owning that end customer directly globally, it's going to be very challenging. And so I think that, you know, just kind of on behalf of Southeast Asia, you know, how to make the station more competitive, but they really have to start to think about how to expand outside of just the regional or domestic market and start to go global. And, and you know, for us, we have a lot of brands enter the market. We're actually more inbound, probably 95% of our business is inbound, but we start to see now is that, you know, there are few manufacturers that are going, hey, can you help me expand to rocketing Japan or China, Amazon us, right? She Mando you know, Germany and you know, just all these different channels out there, right? So as you start to build a brand and you start to build a product anywhere Southeast Asia, companies have to start to think how did they go global? I have to be really competitive. And so I think that, you know, just being, you know, living out here for 15, 15 plus years, how, how can this region are made competitive because a lot of ad companies are entering. Um, what I find interesting is that also you've got to understand as you build businesses out here in the southeast, they have to think about, we don't just compete, for example, when one country or a couple of countries, in fact the whole world is entered. You know, you have Google, Facebook, Amazon, you know what I mean? Obviously Alibaba, jd.com, you've got domestic players, you've got conglomerate, you got regional conglomerates, right? Um, obviously building businesses in these times of very, it's very interesting because this is where harass, binded exited three companies where you know, you actually have this opportunity to exit to the local, regional or global players, right? Then these companies, the globals, players especially either the, they have to build it themselves from scratch, right? Or they just buy their, we're in. Right? And also similar with even conglomerates that are, that don't have the capabilities of building technology. They were in very traditional businesses, whether it's gas pong, well or United to kind of real estate, right? These guys are gonna look me up, you know, how do they build the future industries of tomorrow, which is technology. And most of them don't, are not equipped for that. So they themselves need to acquire, they were in their way in as well. So I think these are sort of great times for companies to build out here in Southeast Asia because you know, the lack of infrastructure, the lack of the tech and the opportunity to be able to exit to local, regional, global players. Huge opportunity. Let's talk a little bit for a moment about people. It's key to any, to any startup is even more so. How do you hire people, US know? Really for us it's, you know, it is the matter of the passion, the eagerness to learn to curiosity our businesses. Incredibly complex. I mean, you think about the industries that we tackle, marketing, retail and logistics, right? What I think in a really attracts, um, well we attract talent is also the complexity of that model, right? Meaning that, you know, when you think about the logistics guys that, you know, supply chain backgrounds, when they join our business, they actually don't just stay there. They arervery curious about learning about distribution, learning about, you know, B to C retailing B to B retailing and they get to move up the value chain. They get to learn right? Then all the way up to even marketing as well. And so we see some really, you know, some guys that are eager to learn, um, you know, all the way up, know they started in logistics and then go up to retail and marketing. Then marketing guys, they also want to learn about logistics as well. Right? So that's what that incredibly fascinating. I think, you know, um, the, the, the, the new workforce of today, they're pretty savvy just because of the availability of information that they get on online so they can do all the research. And, you know, I think that the most important thing, um, before the pitching investors is actually being able to convince the, these top talent to join your business. Because when you look at your business model, do that. Wow. I think that there's a real business model. I think there's a real need here. I think you know, that they have the autonomy to be able to not only help execute the existing products and services of today, but they know that they will, they can actually bill also new products and service up tomorrow and the future right. That excites the ability to be able to build new products. And for us, businesses always have to keep innovating and they know that in our business model we always have to be innovative to three steps ahead of everybody, right? And so now for example, we really, we just want a fairly recent product market product called brand Iq that really allows companies like L'Oreal and these brands to be able to monitor across all the marketplaces. You know, the gray market goods, you know, what's the average pricing for that product, how much market share or digital share of shelf, how much advertising investment didn't have to invest to grab more market share, right? So giving them a full visibility of where their brand stands across, you know, all these different channels, right? And so when you think about, you know, marketing product like that, right? The guys that built that out, we're actually from the retail, from Rita saying, we need to know, you know, you know, we need to help our brands basically grow market. But how do we call them market? Is there, what is the market intelligence from that question alone? Our company goes, look, let's go build that. Right? Because we need that solution for brands. And so we just listened to our clients and our clients are pretty big clients, right? That I'm pretty big problems. Right. And you know, we just have to listen to them. But you also have to have the culture of being able to execute and build on that. I'm not seeing that got the right 100% but it's the, you know, I mean, I think that the mission to solve these problems on behalf of our makes these guys, you know, kind of, it's a very fluid, dynamic business to work in. Yes. And I think that they definitely learn a lot. I think some people can be overwhelmed in some sense. Right. But you know, for us it's, you know, making sure that in order for us to build a release, longterm solid business, we need to have this kind of mindset. Yeah. I mean, as a, I think the, the, the feel if you're not breaking things. So it definitely in a, in a, in a startup environment and in a, in a fast growing environment, inevitability feel overwhelmed sometimes. But I think to your point, and it's a, it's a very good example and again, big brands and the fact that you can adapt to their needs and can come up with a solution, I think it puts me in a very, very favorable because typically those that are not that flexible and not able to shift the needle so fast. Right? So then then new address and you truly become lumped in button and you've touched upon Elijah, right? So I think that's very important that the CEO of the company, you're one of the key drivers of the culture really in, in ecommerce you mentioned things like flexibility, like that ability, um, any other key aspects, uh, of the culture? Is there a way in which you also consciously tried it? I mean, I think just culturally, I think when you think about being an entrepreneur and having that founder mentality, which is to solve problems, right? So when you have, when you're solving problems for clients, for example, right? That is the most important thing for us as a business, right? To really help these clients. So even that applies to entrepreneurship, that what problems are you, because some companies will build products that really don't have a user case and those are some of the challenges to kind of like gaps, right? And so for us, we're fairly fortunate in that in this business model actually. But also I think it's important that could be curious, humble, right? Because sometimes I think that the big challenges when you, when you work in a very kind of fast paced, dynamic environment, right? That you know, some times, you know, Managing Egos, you know, managing really big person personalities, no one wants to work with jerks, right? And so I think that it's really important for us that, you know, when, when Derrick jerks in our business, then we make sure that we weed them out. And it's because, you know, we all have to work hard. You don't want to work hard and have to deal with jerks. And I think that that is so important where, you know, you have to make hard decisions. Um, insert sometimes to, you know, get the organization to where it is to then everyone has to be souped up, right? And so to have a pleasant working environment and you where you can lean on your teammates in, I mean, and rely on people and know that, you know, I mean that they're also as well as colleagues I think is incredible. Yeah. That teamwork environment is incredibly in. I think that, you know, the people wrote for that leadership, you know, even by how the sea levels and executives actually communicate and work with each other or even some times, you know what I mean? Like openly argued in front and then healthy and kind of debatable way. But at the end of the end of the day, it's about getting the best result. It's not about hate the word sit your right, because you know, this works in your body. For me it's like, you know, at that really kind of a process opinions, right? And so you want to be able to have, uh, any person in the organization, whatever role to be able to go, hey, I'm spotting a problem here. Right? And then you kind of drown that out. Organizations going to get into trouble. Yes. Yes. And leadership principles that you follow? I mean some I would say, I mean just on top of my head, you know, on top of my head, you know, for principals to be Sarah, just to what do you mean by principle? You know that that gets a drug there and then it might be a spit into you and they'll call chased as you for breakfast or in terms of the leading teams are getting the best out of on your mind. Does I think you rightfully man, you mentioned actually that you mentioned about teamwork. You mentioned books gets in Europe, the United States, it's more of a um, is more about getting stuff done. So problems putting up and speaking. I mean I think all of this action principles, if you think about it or that was just thinking of this in this and like almost like a month or that you've tried to be, I mean, yes we have that, you know, kind of the defend the values. But for me, it's really when you think about the organization as a whole and how the culture, and when you think about where does culture come from, it's actually how you're executing a business model, right? So when you think about how complex a business model, let's say it's the concept of a business business model concept, right? How you execute that, right? You know, the term is also what kind of culture that you build, right? So when you think like our, our, our, one of our long dresses like claims first. So the way we think about it is that, you know, we wouldn't have an organization if the clients aren't there, right? And so the next of that would be the team, right? And the last is the company, right? Because you know, the team has, they're obviously no support, you know, the declines. And so because of that core principle, for us it's really all about how do we make the client happy? How do we solve the problem from that perspective? This is where we come up with our new products or new services clients are open share with us. And also, you know, making sure that, you know, the level of customer service that we provide, making sure terminally, you know, teamwork that's Ebook to support that, you know, because sometimes, you know, obviously they're very demanding, right? Um, you know, I think that in a, in a kind of vendor model, right, it's actually, you know, the expectations of the vendor. It's part in, you know, when there's something that goes wrong, it's almost like double dipping, right? Because you're representing that, you know, the client to the customer. Right? And so that's where like getting that right is incredibly important to know for us. The customer first is definitely one of our core values. Yes. Final question. What would it be? What would be the tip of the device it would share with somebody who wants to embark on the journey of entrepreneurship? Uh, I think that, you know, you, you have to, you know, prepare for, you know, kind of really difficult and hard times. I mean, obviously it has benefits and you've got to think about, I would say relentless and perseverance. Right? And those are, I would say, traits that are important in an entrepreneur because we will always run into blogs, right? And trying to figure out how to that wall, you know, punch through that wall, break through that wall. You know, it's important and I think that you have to have kind of that level of perseverance but also the support structure, right? Meaning that if you have family, you have friends, even give co founders, it's important to have not only kind of financial support, right? But actually the emotional support. I think that a lot of entrepreneurs don't realize how grueling sometimes it can be and you know, things, certain things catch up to them and you know, rather than kind of be burnt out and fall apart. Right? You need constantly to be able to read that I'm going through this hardship. Who can I consult with? Who can I advise in that court mechanism is incredibly important, right? Some people will have mentors, some people work a family, right? Some people, our friends call needs co founders. And so for me it was incredibly important to just have a very strong founding team. Right? And instead of being kind of the lone founder actually tend to invest in the companies that have a good support structure. Because you know, just by having two or three founders, you know, it's incredibly important to have sparring partners, especially, you know, when you're going to, let's say going into more building a business. Yeah,Speaker 3:
yeah, no, that's excellent. I know you share the load,Speaker 2:
but then, then, then you know who should each other further?Speaker 3:
No, I mean it's a recurring thing. We've met a few entrepreneurs on the, on the, on the podcast and I think it's a recurring theme that, I mean, it is super tough. And also we obviously deal a little bit with senior executives in the big corporations and some of them are candidates and they complain all, you know, sometimes they tell me, all right, I'm fed up with the corporate world and I wish I was this. I was thought on my own, but I think a lot of them don't realize. I think they over, um, I, they over, uh, I don't know. It was the wood. Basically they think that is such a glamorous January. It's been underground way and actually it's probably the hardest thing you can post. Yeah.Speaker 2:
And we had to be hard, you know, a fair bit of corporate guys as they entered the organization. Like, wow, you don't have this, you don't have administrative support or you don't have this. You're like, Whoa, can you build it? And that I think actually take a year or a year plus my advice to any guys in to come to the corporate world instead of kind of before you actually do your own startup. I would recommend joining a startup, maybe mid side and start to kind of get the hang of it. Um, and you know, learn before actually really diving into the deep end. But yeah. But at the same time, even when you also kind of read the research that, you know, when you, when you're actually in the business and you know, you've thought about in a building, you own start know the f 30, 40, 35 to 40% of successful startups came from, you know, basically, uh, founders that were employed while they were, you know, kind of thinking of their next business. And it actually spent a year to two years before they launch that and the reason why is because if thought of all the problems before they back to the gym, Shiver and I think that vetting that process rather than kind of jumping ship. Right? Yeah. Thirdly, we've done it through that likely June's of success was actually owed 35 or 40% higher chance of success. Yes. You know what I mean? It really depends on I think what stage you are.Speaker 3:
Super well, many things sharing. Great Advice. Great tips. Thank you for the stories. Thank you for the lessons. It's been a pleasure to have you in. We should[inaudible].Speaker 2:
Sure. Thanks for protein here Jason.Speaker 4:
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