WEBVTT 00:00:00.681 --> 00:00:12.606 This is Queer, we Are Hi. 00:00:12.606 --> 00:00:13.147 This is Brad. 00:00:13.147 --> 00:00:19.475 And what better movie to discuss during Pride Month than the celebrated 1970s the Boys in the Band. 00:00:19.475 --> 00:00:25.370 Some love it, some hate it, and we discussed both sides, but it cannot be argued. 00:00:25.370 --> 00:00:26.934 It was groundbreaking. 00:00:27.460 --> 00:00:32.502 I haven't been around with new episodes because I've been tied up on jury duty for an exhaustive murder trial. 00:00:32.502 --> 00:00:37.232 Court has been in session for one month and we still haven't begun deliberations. 00:00:37.232 --> 00:00:39.085 This is the first time I've ever done this. 00:00:39.085 --> 00:00:49.454 Given the trial, which has made me even later publishing my next novel, I've decided to put the show on summer hiatus rather than trying to get something out to you as time allows. 00:00:49.454 --> 00:00:59.006 I have great guests lined up for when Queer Re-Art returns, including Oscar winners, experts on the bear community, lesbian history and much more. 00:00:59.006 --> 00:01:02.942 I am excited and I hate that I had to put them off. 00:01:02.942 --> 00:01:11.156 Since I've had to reschedule guests, I'm providing another episode of the Going Hollywood podcast, where I discuss movies and television with film historian Tony Maeda. 00:01:11.156 --> 00:01:17.808 We converse about the positive and negative viewpoints of the boys in the band as well as take you behind the scenes. 00:01:17.808 --> 00:01:23.608 If you'd like to check out the Going Hollywood podcast and I hope you do there's a link in the show notes. 00:02:30.247 --> 00:02:32.810 Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta. 00:02:33.449 --> 00:02:36.171 And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies. 00:02:36.752 --> 00:02:39.735 We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. 00:02:39.735 --> 00:02:42.477 We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too. 00:02:46.939 --> 00:02:49.711 And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter, as does your self-delusion. 00:02:49.711 --> 00:03:00.080 Welcome to Going Hollywood, Brad. 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:05.199 Before we start, because I never see you except when we're recording these podcasts, and I wanted to invite you to this birthday party that I'm going to. 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:06.344 I was wondering if you'd like to go with me. 00:03:06.344 --> 00:03:10.270 You know it's going to be a really tight group about nine guys. 00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:14.046 It's just a very small get-together and these guys are a lot of fun. 00:03:14.046 --> 00:03:21.593 They can be a lot of fun, and it's at this fabulous apartment with this huge terrace that overlooks the city. 00:03:22.381 --> 00:03:23.421 So, would you like to go with me? 00:03:23.901 --> 00:03:29.229 You know, tony, I get such a rare opportunity to get into the city now that I live outside, that I would love to come to one of your parties. 00:03:30.270 --> 00:03:30.651 Oh good. 00:03:30.651 --> 00:03:32.413 Well, it's not my party, it's for a friend of mine. 00:03:32.413 --> 00:03:33.875 It's his 32nd birthday. 00:03:33.875 --> 00:03:34.575 Oh, he's old. 00:03:34.575 --> 00:03:36.501 It'll be a lot of fun. 00:03:36.501 --> 00:03:39.645 But you know, I should probably mention, you know, that. 00:03:39.645 --> 00:03:50.866 Just a little caveat there is the slightest potential for humiliation, emotional scarring and devastation, but there'll be cake. 00:03:52.641 --> 00:03:53.973 Well, hey, cake's all that matters. 00:03:53.973 --> 00:03:54.800 I can deal with the rest of it. 00:03:55.061 --> 00:03:56.305 Happy Pride, everybody. 00:03:56.305 --> 00:03:57.348 Happy Pride. 00:03:57.348 --> 00:03:59.764 It's boys in the band. 00:03:59.764 --> 00:04:00.949 Did we give it away? 00:04:00.949 --> 00:04:03.106 Did we give it away too much there? 00:04:03.106 --> 00:04:03.808 Nothing to sing. 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:10.325 You know, with this podcast being relatively new, tony and I were making all kinds of plans to you know what episodes do we want to do? 00:04:10.325 --> 00:04:17.567 When we brainstormed and finally Tony's like wait a minute, it's Pride Month, we need to do a Pride Month episode, and so we have just enough time to get this one in. 00:04:17.567 --> 00:04:18.925 What a good one to choose. 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:45.608 Well, I think we kind of have to, and I was also saying to Brad too you know it's kind of redundant that we're doing a Pride episode because so many of our episodes have gay references, but I feel it was really important that we do this. 00:04:45.608 --> 00:04:46.408 Landmark film's a very, very. 00:04:46.408 --> 00:04:51.336 No matter how you feel about it, good or bad there's no denying it's a landmark and it needs to be discussed, I think. 00:04:52.862 --> 00:04:54.040 And I have a couple of things to say about it. 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:55.786 I was, I had mixed emotions when you said it. 00:04:55.786 --> 00:04:57.524 I immediately said, oh God, we have to do it. 00:04:57.524 --> 00:04:59.110 It's a classic Right. 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:01.187 But if you remember, I said well, what were you talking? 00:05:01.187 --> 00:05:05.610 I assumed you were talking about the 1970 film, but I didn't want to 100% assume that. 00:05:05.610 --> 00:05:06.752 I didn't want to watch the wrong thing. 00:05:06.752 --> 00:05:12.596 So I asked you are we talking about the 70 film, the Netflix 2020 film, or are we doing both? 00:05:12.596 --> 00:05:15.521 And you were like well, I only had my head in 1970. 00:05:15.521 --> 00:05:16.702 I said that's fine. 00:05:17.084 --> 00:05:20.569 So I had mixed feelings when you decided that this would be a good idea, tony. 00:05:20.569 --> 00:05:22.451 And the reason is I hate this movie. 00:05:22.451 --> 00:05:23.552 I've always hated this movie. 00:05:23.552 --> 00:05:25.115 It's disturbing. 00:05:25.115 --> 00:05:26.661 There's a lot about it I hate. 00:05:26.661 --> 00:05:33.163 So I said, when I sit down this time, I'm going to go with an open mind and put things in a different perspective. 00:05:33.163 --> 00:05:39.704 So I did that and later I will share with you if my feelings about this movie have changed. 00:05:39.704 --> 00:05:41.148 Okay, good, Good. 00:05:41.148 --> 00:05:47.906 But like any movie, right now I can tell you there are big pluses and big minuses, like any film, and we can certainly get into those along the way. 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:54.293 Yeah, you know, I think this movie is important to do, just for its landmark value. 00:05:54.293 --> 00:06:05.778 You know, there's no getting around it, whether you love it or whether you hate it, it was the first time that gay characters were seen as quote-unquote normal people. 00:06:05.778 --> 00:06:14.826 Now I know there's people who are going to give me an argument about what normal is, but anyway, that weren't aberrants of nature, that gay people were just like everybody else. 00:06:14.826 --> 00:06:16.851 It was the first time in a mainstream film. 00:06:16.851 --> 00:06:20.992 Obviously, there had been gay characters in films and they usually were murderers or were murdered. 00:06:20.992 --> 00:06:27.961 You know Sebastian Venable getting eaten literally by a group of roving tree dirchins. 00:06:27.961 --> 00:06:36.901 So what's important about the Boys in the Band is that it was the first and, yeah, love it, hate it. 00:06:36.901 --> 00:06:38.987 It has that distinction. 00:06:38.987 --> 00:06:41.620 So I think that's why it's important for us to talk about. 00:06:43.286 --> 00:06:45.351 I have mixed feelings about this film as well, you know. 00:06:45.351 --> 00:06:53.839 It's funny because I think I was thinking about when was the first time I saw Boys in the Band and, regardless of what anyone might think out there, I did not see it in the theater in 1970. 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:57.891 The first time I saw it, I know, was on VHS. 00:06:57.891 --> 00:07:04.067 It had been released on VHS, which was a horrible quality Horrible, horrible, but I had to see it because I heard so much about it. 00:07:04.067 --> 00:07:07.673 But I think I saw Cruising first. 00:07:07.673 --> 00:07:15.254 Okay, william Friedkin, for a supposedly straight man, and he was married four times, so I'm assuming he was straight. 00:07:15.254 --> 00:07:24.535 He directed the two most controversial films in gay cinema history the Boys in the Band and then, 10 years later, cruising. 00:07:25.221 --> 00:07:28.329 Oh, someday we'll do Cruising, but I'll have to get my stomach ready for that. 00:07:29.641 --> 00:07:37.307 I think I saw Cruising first, so Boys in the Band wasn't that scarring to me because nobody was being knifed to death in Boys in the Band. 00:07:37.307 --> 00:07:38.350 You know what I mean. 00:07:38.350 --> 00:07:42.915 So coming to Boys in the Band after seeing Cruising was like a breath of fresh air for me personally. 00:07:42.915 --> 00:07:45.766 Boys in the Band after seeing Cruising, it was like a breath of fresh air. 00:07:45.807 --> 00:07:48.882 for me personally, queer people were protesting, cruising. 00:07:48.882 --> 00:07:51.064 I know people that tell me they were out there with their placards. 00:07:51.144 --> 00:07:52.406 Well, queer people were protesting. 00:07:52.406 --> 00:07:53.067 Boys in the Band. 00:07:53.288 --> 00:07:58.694 Well, yeah, but Cruising was a flashback to basically gay men are all psychopaths. 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:01.442 Yeah, it's a hard film to watch. 00:08:01.442 --> 00:08:33.919 Maybe we can do it sometime no-transcript. 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:36.729 I'm going to get to that later but I'm going to give my description at first. 00:08:36.729 --> 00:08:52.083 Boys in the Band is a 1970 film based on a 1968 play by Matt Crowley and, to put this in perspective, the play came out the year before Stonewall and therefore the movie came out and I assume was being filmed during the time of Stonewall Interesting story there. 00:08:52.083 --> 00:08:54.070 So this is a pretty amazing time period. 00:08:54.700 --> 00:08:57.005 Yes, you know what Mark Crowley said. 00:08:57.005 --> 00:09:02.871 The reason he wasn't at Stonewall although I don't think he would frequent Stonewall, he probably went more for the townhouse. 00:09:02.871 --> 00:09:04.684 Knowing Mark Crowley went Stonewall, he probably would have been. 00:09:04.684 --> 00:09:06.028 He probably went more for the townhouse, knowing Mark Crowley. 00:09:06.028 --> 00:09:10.984 They were filming the boys in the band, you know, 20 blocks up from Stonewall, uh, when the writing began. 00:09:10.984 --> 00:09:13.490 So that's, that's kind of tells you what was going on. 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:17.912 So the boys in the band began as one movie and ended as something very different. 00:09:18.460 --> 00:09:20.586 And you mentioned that you think he'd hang out at the townhouse. 00:09:20.586 --> 00:09:22.905 I'm sure you know he did in real life. 00:09:30.700 --> 00:09:30.961 Did he really? 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:31.702 That was a shot in the dark. 00:09:31.702 --> 00:09:34.071 Yes, the apartment was based on an actress and I'll have to find her name Tammy Grimes. 00:09:34.071 --> 00:09:36.238 Tammy Grimes the exterior was actually filmed at her apartment. 00:09:36.238 --> 00:09:37.660 Right, the daytime Right. 00:09:37.660 --> 00:09:40.106 But they could not get the cameras inside her apartment. 00:09:40.106 --> 00:09:40.788 It was too small. 00:09:40.788 --> 00:09:43.264 So they built a set that they say matched it. 00:09:43.264 --> 00:09:45.149 So pretty, damn nice apartment. 00:09:45.149 --> 00:09:45.750 I'll tell you that. 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:47.986 Gorgeous apartments on the Upper East Side. 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:49.687 Nobody could afford that in New York today. 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:51.567 No, certainly not. 00:09:51.567 --> 00:09:53.046 So what is this movie about? 00:09:53.386 --> 00:09:53.648 Okay. 00:09:53.648 --> 00:10:02.903 So the movie is about a birthday party and it is hosted by Michael, and Michael is a for lack of a better word I keep seeing recovering alcoholic. 00:10:02.903 --> 00:10:04.703 He doesn't usually really use that term. 00:10:04.703 --> 00:10:07.466 He pretty much just says I stopped drinking, but he's an alcoholic. 00:10:07.466 --> 00:10:08.287 You definitely learned that. 00:10:08.287 --> 00:10:11.549 He also is Catholic and seems to be struggling there. 00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:16.533 And he is hosting this party for his friend, harold. 00:10:16.533 --> 00:10:18.275 And I don't know what Harold does for a living. 00:10:18.275 --> 00:10:19.297 I don't think he's ever told. 00:10:19.297 --> 00:10:24.823 But Harold describes himself as an ugly, pockmarked Jew fairy. 00:10:24.823 --> 00:10:35.168 Michael and all his friends are all stereotypes and I don't see that as a negative because I'm firmly of the belief that stereotypes do exist for a reason and every one of these individuals is a stereotype. 00:10:35.168 --> 00:10:37.746 But I can also say I know every one of these individuals. 00:10:37.847 --> 00:10:38.750 Yeah, that's true. 00:10:38.750 --> 00:10:40.145 Well, that's very true. 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:41.644 Yeah, I know every one of them. 00:10:41.644 --> 00:10:44.624 Michael is really struggling with his identity. 00:10:44.624 --> 00:10:47.229 Though you would never know it at the beginning, he seems the most stable. 00:10:47.229 --> 00:10:51.302 Harold is very self-loathing, bitter in his own way. 00:10:51.302 --> 00:10:53.947 Emery is super flamboyant, the decorator. 00:10:53.947 --> 00:10:55.692 Well they are archetypes. 00:10:55.692 --> 00:10:55.873 Yes. 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:57.563 Now I hear what you're saying. 00:10:57.563 --> 00:10:58.346 They are archetypes. 00:10:58.346 --> 00:11:15.297 But I think it's important to point out, and Mark Crowley has said this, and I wanted to get a little bit in the background of and Mark Crowley has said this and I wanted to get a little bit in the background of I'm not gonna talk a lot about the play, but it's important because basically, what we're seeing when we see the film the Boys in the Band is the play, is the film version of the play, because it has the exact same cast, almost all of the same dialogue. 00:11:15.297 --> 00:11:17.321 So I want to talk about that. 00:11:17.321 --> 00:11:17.802 But what Mark Crowley? 00:11:17.802 --> 00:11:27.264 When he would get criticized for saying it was a bad representation of gay culture, he's like I'm not trying to represent gay culture, these are my friends. 00:11:27.264 --> 00:11:31.253 All of these characters were based on real people that Mark Crowley knew. 00:11:31.253 --> 00:11:34.587 Now, harold, he was an ice skater. 00:11:34.587 --> 00:11:37.684 I don't think he's still ice skating, but, as you said, you didn't know what he did. 00:11:37.684 --> 00:11:39.070 Harold was an ice skater. 00:11:39.070 --> 00:11:44.667 He was based on a very good friend of Mark Crowley's. 00:11:44.667 --> 00:11:48.224 Basically, what happened is let me go ahead and give a little background about. 00:11:48.224 --> 00:11:52.865 Can I go ahead and give a little bit of background about how the boys in the band came about and about Mark Crowley. 00:11:52.865 --> 00:11:54.711 Sure, let's go ahead and do that. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:02.471 So, anyway, mark Crowley grew up in the South and longed to be a playwright. 00:12:03.152 --> 00:12:25.312 He moved to New York when he was young and he somehow found himself being a PA on the set of Splendor in the Grass and being a PA primarily for Natalie Wood, and he and Natalie Wood became very close friends and when Splendor in the Grass was over, natalie Wood asked him to come back to Los Angeles with her and be her assistant. 00:12:25.312 --> 00:12:46.923 So he became Natalie Wood's assistant and he was very much in the Hollywood scene of the 60s, which was a fabulous, fabulous time to be in Hollywood, I think, and he knew all these people and he actually one of the things that she said if he came to Hollywood with her, she would give him a meeting with her agent at William Morris so he could get some work writing. 00:12:46.923 --> 00:13:04.701 And he actually wrote some screenplays, one of which was purchased by 20th Century Fox to star Natalie Wood, and Natalie Wood was going to play twins, one of the twins being a lesbian, which would have been incredible, but 20th Century Fox lost their nerve and it never happened. 00:13:04.982 --> 00:13:05.404 It was called. 00:13:05.424 --> 00:13:06.288 Cassandra at the wedding. 00:13:06.288 --> 00:13:09.746 Yeah, so Mark Crowley was kind of like a dilettante. 00:13:09.746 --> 00:13:19.971 He was in the room where it happened, he was with all these famous people, all these things were happening around him, yet he was not doing anything and he began to get very depressed and he began to drink. 00:13:19.971 --> 00:13:28.409 Well, he had this friend, this very good friend, named Howard Jeffries, who was a dancer and worked on all the big musicals in the 60s. 00:13:28.409 --> 00:13:34.505 He was in Funny Girl, he was the groom in the bridal scene, he was in Hello Dolly. 00:13:34.505 --> 00:13:46.802 He was a very, very accomplished dancer and he took Mart to this birthday party that was full of well, not full of gay men, a small birthday party of about a dozen gay men. 00:13:46.802 --> 00:13:53.402 And that was the first light bulb that went off in Mark Crowley's mind about what he could possibly write. 00:13:53.402 --> 00:13:56.607 That spoke to him as a gay man. 00:13:56.607 --> 00:14:13.421 And he said that he was lying in bed and he was very depressed and he just started writing lines, one after the other, after the other, and he just did this for days and days and days until he finally had a play that was based on the concept of a birthday party. 00:14:14.042 --> 00:14:17.989 It's Harold, who he based on his friend Howard Jeffries. 00:14:17.989 --> 00:14:28.965 Harold's 32nd birthday, all of these men come together to wish him a happy birthday and, of course, the night it turns into a long day's journey into night. 00:14:28.965 --> 00:14:32.793 It's, it's just how it happens, how it degenerates. 00:14:32.793 --> 00:14:35.147 But here's what I have a problem with, and maybe you don't agree with this. 00:14:35.147 --> 00:14:37.976 I have been to parties like this. 00:14:37.976 --> 00:14:45.583 You know, maybe they didn't degenerate to the point that they degenerate to in in the boys in the band, but I certainly there, certainly was. 00:14:45.583 --> 00:14:49.172 It was something in the air that I knew this was turning quickly. 00:14:49.172 --> 00:14:50.094 I got to get out of here. 00:14:50.094 --> 00:14:59.931 So that's why, when people say it's stereotypical, I don't know that that's necessarily true or that's necessarily a bad thing, because I think these people exist. 00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:02.889 When I say it's stereotypical, I meant the characters are stereotypes, okay. 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:05.780 And yeah. 00:15:05.801 --> 00:15:08.350 I guess you could say the situation is stereotypical, but I don't know if I thought that at first. 00:15:08.350 --> 00:15:11.205 The self-loathing is certainly heavy. 00:15:11.205 --> 00:15:13.725 Yes, here's my challenge with this. 00:15:13.725 --> 00:15:19.384 So let me go back into the description that I've seen online, and this is where I have a challenge with this film. 00:15:19.384 --> 00:15:26.022 I'm reading I don't remember where the source was, but it's almost identical to everything else. 00:15:26.022 --> 00:15:33.034 I've seen A witty, perceptive and devastating look at the personal agendas and suppressed revelations swirling among a group of gay men in Manhattan. 00:15:33.034 --> 00:15:38.831 Harold is celebrating a birthday and his friend, michael has drafted some other friends to help commemorate the event. 00:15:38.831 --> 00:15:40.214 Here's where I have the challenge. 00:15:40.214 --> 00:15:52.135 As the evening progresses, the alcohol flows, the knives come out and Michaels demand that the group participate in devious telephone games, unleashed dormant and unspoken emotions. 00:15:53.020 --> 00:15:55.730 If that was this movie, I would like it better. 00:15:55.730 --> 00:15:57.567 That did not describe this movie. 00:15:57.567 --> 00:16:02.672 Those tensions and those antagonisms were right from the very beginning. 00:16:02.672 --> 00:16:04.606 They got worse as later goes on. 00:16:05.886 --> 00:16:08.506 Originally I didn't like this film because there was so much self-loathing. 00:16:08.506 --> 00:16:09.921 And then I looked at my own life and I'm like God. 00:16:09.921 --> 00:16:11.307 I had self-loathing for a lot of years. 00:16:11.307 --> 00:16:13.267 I relate to these people. 00:16:13.267 --> 00:16:14.985 Yeah, pretty common. 00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:26.183 But you know this is all before my time, but I've talked to guys in this era and they said there were two things about it. 00:16:26.183 --> 00:16:27.429 One, it was scary because you never knew who to trust. 00:16:27.429 --> 00:16:36.645 Yes, but despite all that and despite the pain and the suffering, when they got together it was very painful but there's also a lot of joy, yeah, and they really look on that fondly and I didn't see any of that in this movie Really. 00:16:36.645 --> 00:16:39.841 And what I would have liked to seen better, more is in the beginning. 00:16:39.841 --> 00:16:41.504 Maybe it would have been longer or there. 00:16:41.504 --> 00:16:41.764 Probably. 00:16:41.764 --> 00:16:43.707 I can think of a few things that could have been taken out. 00:16:43.707 --> 00:16:44.249 Nothing major. 00:16:44.249 --> 00:16:53.288 I would have liked to have seen more of that joy and the campiness, because I think the camp was much more over the top then Because they had to express themselves somehow. 00:16:53.288 --> 00:16:55.006 You don't think Emery was campy. 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:57.884 Well, I Connie Casserole. 00:16:57.884 --> 00:16:59.244 Oh Mary, don't ask. 00:17:00.368 --> 00:17:03.386 No, no, I would like to have seen more of that amongst the whole group. 00:17:03.386 --> 00:17:05.070 And they did a little bit of it. 00:17:05.070 --> 00:17:09.346 They did a little dancing, they did the dance of Fire Island, reading each other and that kind of thing. 00:17:09.346 --> 00:17:16.289 To me it went downhill way too fast and it really started out with Michael and is it Donald? 00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:21.692 Yes, michael and Donald are friends, but there's that antagonism between them right from the beginning. 00:17:21.692 --> 00:17:28.224 So I wish it was a little more fun in the beginning and then pull this into the pain. 00:17:28.244 --> 00:17:31.371 Well, see, I find it so funny it's. 00:17:31.371 --> 00:17:32.733 You know, it's no accident. 00:17:32.733 --> 00:17:42.789 The two inspirations that Mark Crowley looks to or mentioned as his inspirations for this, for the play and for the film were who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? 00:17:42.789 --> 00:17:45.457 Duh, I mean, it is the gay. 00:17:45.457 --> 00:17:46.780 Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? 00:17:46.780 --> 00:17:47.923 If that's not redundant. 00:17:47.923 --> 00:18:00.250 I mean, the dialogue is that dense and cutting and it can turn on a dime from outrageous comedy to tragedy. 00:18:00.250 --> 00:18:03.180 And that's Virginia Woolf and that's the boys in the band. 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:06.643 It's actually one of two plays that were put out on recording. 00:18:06.643 --> 00:18:07.903 I remember because I had both of them. 00:18:07.903 --> 00:18:16.049 They were actually made audio recordings on albums of Virginia Woolf and Boys in the Band and it makes sense because they're like bookends. 00:18:16.049 --> 00:18:19.392 He also looked at Rope, the Alfred Hitchcock film. 00:18:19.392 --> 00:18:28.685 There's a play that the Alfred Hitchcock film was based on because it takes place in real time, and the Boys and the Band also takes place in real time and if you've seen, the movie Rope. 00:18:28.900 --> 00:18:30.644 The play is much more blatant. 00:18:30.644 --> 00:18:31.788 It's a gay couple. 00:18:31.788 --> 00:18:33.152 It's not hinted at. 00:18:33.662 --> 00:18:40.182 So what I think is I find it hysterically funny in the beginning, because I don't know these lines. 00:18:40.182 --> 00:19:36.279 They're so bright, they're so sharp no-transcript. 00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:39.085 just give us a little more of that good time. 00:19:39.085 --> 00:19:42.853 I didn't laugh a lot through this, and I never have. 00:19:42.853 --> 00:19:47.279 I was reading the review of the 2018 Broadway, you know cause. 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.705 It was originally off Broadway and then 2018, they brought it on Broadway and I was reading the review of that Right. 00:19:52.007 --> 00:19:53.430 Finally finally made it to broad. 00:19:53.430 --> 00:19:54.724 It finally made it to Broadway. 00:19:55.086 --> 00:19:59.541 Yes, it did, and they said the audience was saying the lines, the funny lines before they were. 00:19:59.541 --> 00:20:14.511 They were being spoken and were laughing and I'm like there are some great funny lines in there, but to me they were so overshadowed by the pain and maybe that's the part I'm missing, that you have that joy in the midst of pain and that is part more what I got from it later on. 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:16.825 Well, here's the thing. 00:20:16.825 --> 00:20:17.346 I mean. 00:20:17.346 --> 00:20:21.598 This play was written when we could still be arrested. 00:20:21.598 --> 00:20:22.942 Obviously, it was before Stonewall. 00:20:22.942 --> 00:20:23.644 What was Stonewall? 00:20:23.644 --> 00:20:27.133 Stonewall was the police coming in and raiding a bar to arrest people. 00:20:27.133 --> 00:20:29.807 So this play was written in a time. 00:20:29.807 --> 00:20:38.009 Now here's the thing, though In the mid-60s, the culture was tearing, and what happens when things start to tear is other things start to seep in. 00:20:38.009 --> 00:21:00.805 So, as the culture is tearing in the mid-60s because of Vietnam, because of civil rights protests, suddenly there's a space opening up for these other things to happen, such as gay culture coming forward. 00:21:00.805 --> 00:21:02.207 So when the play was made, it was a very different time. 00:21:02.207 --> 00:21:03.009 It was still very oppressive. 00:21:03.028 --> 00:21:04.471 These men could find a family with each other. 00:21:04.471 --> 00:21:08.224 No matter how dysfunctional you may think it may be, it was still a family. 00:21:08.224 --> 00:21:32.809 You know, at the end of the play, after Harold absolutely decimates Michael with his words and Michael is a heap he's not quite a heap, but he's going to be a heap he turns to him and he says call you tomorrow Now, think about okay yeah, that's a pretty dysfunctional friendship, okay, but there's that sense of family there, that sense of love there that people have with people. 00:21:32.809 --> 00:21:33.269 They're close. 00:21:33.269 --> 00:21:36.531 That my own internalized struggles with my sexuality. 00:21:36.531 --> 00:21:48.249 I remember that pain, that self-loathing, that hatred. 00:21:48.249 --> 00:21:50.707 These people are personifying that. 00:21:50.807 --> 00:21:51.087 Oh yeah. 00:21:51.127 --> 00:21:51.971 And it existed. 00:21:51.971 --> 00:21:53.784 It's a historic fact. 00:21:53.784 --> 00:21:55.750 Still exists, still exists. 00:21:56.290 --> 00:22:01.332 And I agree, that's where I did connect is when I really thought wait a minute, you hated yourself just as much as these guys did. 00:22:01.332 --> 00:22:10.284 But again, what you described is not all that I saw. 00:22:10.304 --> 00:22:11.247 I wanted to see more of that in the film. 00:22:11.267 --> 00:22:19.228 As I said, I'm only going this from hearsay, from what men of that era have told me is the joy and the love of their adopted family or their chosen family, and I would have liked to seen a little. 00:22:19.228 --> 00:22:30.064 But they also talked about the pain and the fear and everything else, and I would have liked to seen just a little more of that chosen family love before that pain that obviously still did exist as well came in. 00:22:30.064 --> 00:22:34.464 That's all I'm saying, because it would have endeared me a little bit more to each of the characters. 00:22:34.464 --> 00:22:35.674 I get what you're saying. 00:22:35.674 --> 00:22:37.182 I wanted to care just a little bit more. 00:22:37.182 --> 00:22:39.019 The characters are hard to like. 00:22:39.501 --> 00:22:42.442 Like people, they're very complex characters. 00:22:42.442 --> 00:22:49.679 Michael, the character of Michael, who's played by Kenneth Nelson, was sort of kind of based on, you know, mark Crowley based him kind of on himself. 00:22:49.679 --> 00:22:51.560 Mark Crowley based him kind of on himself. 00:22:51.560 --> 00:22:53.604 Mark Crowley had issues with drinking. 00:22:53.604 --> 00:22:59.010 He became sober later in his life and he just God bless him he died. 00:22:59.010 --> 00:23:04.846 He finally won the Tony Award for the revival for Best Revival of a Play of the Boys in the Band and he died a little bit later. 00:23:04.914 --> 00:23:09.287 He had a heart attack, which is sad because he was a very, very funny, wonderful guy. 00:23:09.287 --> 00:23:12.423 So Michael is based on Mark Crowley at that time. 00:23:12.423 --> 00:23:17.819 As I said, harold is based on his friend Howard Jeffries, and there are other. 00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:19.894 Donald was based on another dear friend. 00:23:19.894 --> 00:23:27.582 Donald was played by Frederick Holmes, who was the Matt Bomer character in the revival and another good friend of his. 00:23:27.582 --> 00:23:32.301 So these were all friends of his and he was showing the facets of all of his friends. 00:23:33.123 --> 00:23:38.977 I think what I want to say about this and the historical importance of both the play and the film. 00:23:38.977 --> 00:23:46.318 This play first of all had a very I don't want to go into all the machinations of how it got on stage. 00:23:46.318 --> 00:23:54.681 It was a workshop that Edward Albee produced from the money he was making from who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, because he didn't want to give to the government. 00:23:54.681 --> 00:23:57.738 So he created this workshop and it was for five nights. 00:23:57.738 --> 00:24:05.858 And the first night of the show of the play, the house was half full this was in 1968. 00:24:05.858 --> 00:24:14.380 And the second night, the next morning after the first night, there was a line down the block of about 500 people waiting to see this play. 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:24.828 So this play was huge, played five performances in the workshop and then it moved uptown to, I think, 55th Street and played for 1,001 performances. 00:24:24.828 --> 00:25:12.728 So this play was big and when the movie companies came to Mark Crowley saying that they wanted to buy it and make a film of it, because that was happening all the brave actors who literally put their careers on the line to play these parts Lawrence Luckinbill, who plays Hank, the one who was married but is bisexual and struggling with sexuality with Harry said that they all lost their agents because their agents all told them don't do this play. 00:25:12.728 --> 00:25:14.133 And they're like we're going to do this play. 00:25:14.133 --> 00:25:17.101 It's a brilliant play, so anyway, he wanted to reward them. 00:25:17.842 --> 00:25:18.984 I saw an interview. 00:25:18.984 --> 00:25:21.115 He said his wife at the time, robin Strasser. 00:25:21.115 --> 00:25:22.998 She said do you want to really do this? 00:25:22.998 --> 00:25:23.759 And he said I do. 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.280 And she said, okay, there goes your career. 00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:29.885 Yeah, she supported him, but it's just like okay there goes your career, absolutely, absolutely. 00:25:29.905 --> 00:25:30.686 That was the thing you know. 00:25:30.686 --> 00:25:33.089 We talked a little bit about when I was acting and how I had to be. 00:25:33.089 --> 00:25:34.511 I had to play it straight. 00:25:34.511 --> 00:25:37.615 I don't know how successful I was, but I mean that's so. 00:25:37.615 --> 00:25:40.859 Can you imagine in the 60s, when we were still we could still be arrested? 00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:41.881 It wasn't good. 00:25:41.881 --> 00:25:42.922 Yeah, so he. 00:25:43.021 --> 00:25:57.922 But so Mark Crow studio Cinema Center Films, and the only thing that happened was they had to get a new director. 00:25:57.922 --> 00:25:59.430 They couldn't have Robert Moore because the studio said we can't have. 00:25:59.430 --> 00:26:10.803 Robert Moore was the original director of the play and Robert Moore was the actor director who played Phyllis's brother on the Mary Tyler Moore Show the one who's gay, by the way, ps, cute little aside. 00:26:10.803 --> 00:26:13.428 So William Friedkin came in. 00:26:13.428 --> 00:26:17.749 He had just directed the Birthday Party and he was one of these. 00:26:17.749 --> 00:26:27.479 You know, one of the young Turks coming to Hollywood in the early 70s, like Alan Pakula and Martin Scorsese, who revolutionized film business, and he used. 00:26:27.479 --> 00:26:34.410 These actors were able to create the roles they created on stage in film for posterity. 00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:35.016 Now here's. 00:26:35.016 --> 00:26:41.489 The sad thing is that most of them never hit the same heights again. 00:26:41.489 --> 00:26:44.221 Is it because of the characters they played? 00:26:44.221 --> 00:26:46.140 Is it because of this film? 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:47.042 Did this film taint it? 00:26:47.042 --> 00:26:47.565 I don't know. 00:26:47.565 --> 00:26:53.604 They all worked after this film and Lawrence Luckinbill had a very illustrious career. 00:26:53.604 --> 00:26:58.122 He just wrote his memoir, I think other than Robert Letourneau who played Cowboy. 00:26:58.142 --> 00:27:02.682 The others did okay, they did okay, but they felt he just kind of vanished after 74. 00:27:03.714 --> 00:27:05.435 Yeah Well, they felt very confined. 00:27:05.435 --> 00:27:12.560 They felt very stereotyped, in particular Cliff Gorman, who plays Emery probably the bravest of them all. 00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:15.903 And Cliff Gorman was heterosexual, he was not gay. 00:27:15.903 --> 00:27:19.286 Cliff Gorman went on to play Lenny Bruce. 00:27:19.286 --> 00:27:25.769 He won a Tony Award for playing Lenny Bruce in the play version of Lenny, which was later made by Dustin Hoffman as a film. 00:27:25.769 --> 00:27:33.616 He was very angry about what Emery did to his career, was very angry about what Emery did to his career. 00:27:33.636 --> 00:27:34.759 A lot of these actors Robert Letourneau was as well. 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:35.480 Robert Letourneau played Cowboy. 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:42.359 Mark Crowley saw him at a tea dance on Fire Island and said to Robert Moore, that's Cowboy. 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:51.521 He was a soap actor and he was very bitter about it, although I don't know if he would have had such a stellar career without the boys in the band or not. 00:27:51.521 --> 00:27:54.606 But a lot of these people you know. 00:27:54.606 --> 00:27:56.069 Leonard Frye was a great actor. 00:27:56.069 --> 00:27:57.057 He did Fiddler on the Roof. 00:27:57.057 --> 00:27:59.664 After this he was nominated for an Academy Award for that. 00:27:59.664 --> 00:28:01.617 He was also a very good looking guy. 00:28:01.617 --> 00:28:03.943 He's not at all like Harold. 00:28:03.943 --> 00:28:06.858 He's not like the ugly pockmarked Jew fairy he plays in this film. 00:28:06.858 --> 00:28:09.707 It's a brilliant character, if you think of the newer version. 00:28:16.674 --> 00:28:16.692 I him. 00:28:16.692 --> 00:28:17.221 It's a brilliant character If you think of the newer version. 00:28:17.221 --> 00:28:18.440 I think Zach Quinto is very handsome and he looked like Harold in the newer version. 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:19.131 So, yeah, exactly. 00:28:19.131 --> 00:28:21.486 So these are two very good looking guys who definitely changed their appearance to play this part. 00:28:21.486 --> 00:28:26.005 And Peter White was on All my Children for like 30 years playing Link. 00:28:26.005 --> 00:28:32.498 I remember him from All my Children as a kid, I'm like, because the first time I saw the boys in the band I went that's Link from all my children. 00:28:32.498 --> 00:28:34.599 So, yes, they worked. 00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:39.624 Kenneth Nelson moved to London and did work in London on London stage for the rest of his life as well. 00:28:39.624 --> 00:28:47.529 So they all worked, but they never really they didn't really hit the heights that this play promised. 00:28:47.529 --> 00:28:49.071 I guess is the great way to say that. 00:28:49.652 --> 00:28:55.820 You mentioned Gorman, cliff Gorman being so brave to play Emery, who was the most flamboyant of the bunch. 00:28:55.820 --> 00:29:09.645 When I was reading the article that Cliff Gorman and his wife took care of Robert Letourneau when he was dying of AIDS, I'm like his wife, I'm like that had to be a typo. 00:29:09.645 --> 00:29:12.335 I'm like he was straight. 00:29:12.335 --> 00:29:13.902 Oh my goodness, I couldn't believe it. 00:29:13.914 --> 00:29:14.980 It's a little surprising, isn't it? 00:29:14.980 --> 00:29:17.375 Speaking of stereotypes, you talked about stereotypes. 00:29:17.375 --> 00:29:24.275 I do have my issues with his portrayal of Emery Cliff, gorman's portrayal of Emily. 00:29:24.275 --> 00:29:26.055 I mean you can draw a line. 00:29:26.055 --> 00:29:29.722 First of all, you can draw a line from Emery all the way down to Jack McFarlane. 00:29:30.605 --> 00:29:31.314 I mean hello. 00:29:31.355 --> 00:29:33.417 Same trajectory line, from Emery all the way down to Jack McFarlane of Will and Grace. 00:29:33.417 --> 00:29:35.037 I mean, hello, same trajectory, same character. 00:29:35.037 --> 00:29:37.021 You can see the beginnings of it. 00:29:37.021 --> 00:29:39.928 I feel like and Friedkin has said this too. 00:29:39.928 --> 00:29:45.734 William Friedkin said this he feels like he should have toned Cliff Gorman down a little bit. 00:29:45.734 --> 00:29:46.757 They were all theatrical. 00:29:46.757 --> 00:29:59.476 First of all, when William Friedkin agreed to direct this, he wanted three weeks of rehearsal and they were all like what We've been doing, this show for 1001 performances, we do not need to rehearse. 00:29:59.476 --> 00:30:02.863 But he had to rehearse them to bring them down for film. 00:30:02.863 --> 00:30:06.136 Now they're still all very theatrical. 00:30:06.176 --> 00:30:09.021 I think that's another criticism that people have of this film. 00:30:09.021 --> 00:30:13.919 It's very theatrically presented because it is based on a play. 00:30:13.919 --> 00:30:15.463 But there are ways to do it. 00:30:15.463 --> 00:30:18.394 Virginia Woolf is a prime example. 00:30:18.394 --> 00:30:24.226 Virginia Woolf is an incredibly theatrical play but a wonderfully cinematic film. 00:30:24.226 --> 00:30:29.969 I don't look at Virginia Woolf, the film, and think well, first of all, elizabeth Taylor was not a theater actress, so there you go right. 00:30:29.969 --> 00:30:32.798 Now you have a theater actress, so there you go, right now you have a film actress. 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:35.895 So maybe if they had gotten film actors to do this it would be different. 00:30:35.895 --> 00:30:44.059 But yes, it's a very theatrical presentation and they're all just slightly bit too theatrical. 00:30:44.059 --> 00:30:46.064 Same thing with Kenneth Nelson. 00:30:46.064 --> 00:30:49.959 I think he's just a bit too theatrical, needs to just dial it down just a bit. 00:30:49.959 --> 00:30:54.606 But then I don't know, maybe that's the essence of the play, maybe it isn't. 00:31:00.694 --> 00:31:01.017 I agree with you. 00:31:01.017 --> 00:31:01.519 I actually think it was. 00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:02.182 I'm not going to say a mistake. 00:31:02.182 --> 00:31:02.806 I didn't notice the difference. 00:31:02.806 --> 00:31:11.460 I don't want to go back and forth between the new Netflix version and this version, but I'm going to bring it up because I didn't really notice the theatricality of the original movie until I watched the Netflix series. 00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:15.703 And I'm not going to say the Netflix series was better, because it's not, but there were some. 00:31:15.703 --> 00:31:21.228 When I was looking at the casting choices in the different characters, I thought some were better in 70s, some were better in the newer one. 00:31:21.228 --> 00:31:32.137 But one thing I noticed is I felt like the characters were more real in the newer version and then I realized it's because these guys, the other guys are on stage and especially Gorman. 00:31:32.157 --> 00:31:34.421 He was playing Exactly. 00:31:34.421 --> 00:31:37.163 I felt like I was watching somebody play. 00:31:37.163 --> 00:31:38.846 I was watching somebody, an actor. 00:31:38.846 --> 00:31:40.989 I felt like I was watching an actor every time he was on. 00:31:40.989 --> 00:31:41.869 I didn't buy him. 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:43.010 You just hit the nail. 00:31:43.010 --> 00:31:47.865 He was the character that I felt the least connected to. 00:31:47.865 --> 00:31:50.997