The Evolved Leadership Podcast

#23 Law, Leadership & Bitcoin Mining, with Tom Hughes, General Counsel at Mawson Infrastructure Group Inc

• David McDermott

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My guest in this episode is Tom Hughes, Tom is currently General Counsel and Corporate Secretary of the NASDAQ-listed Bitcoin miner, Mawson Infrastructure Group Inc, and before that he was Head of Group Legal at ASX200 financial software and services company, HUB24 Ltd.  He also worked at Macquarie Bank and ANZ Bank.  

 

Highlights of our conversation include exploring what Bitcoin mining actually is,  how Mawson Infrastructure continued to move forward despite all market forces acting against them, the power of speaking last, and how cryptocurrency benefits the planet. 


If you'd like to learn more about Mawson Infrastructure, go to: https://mawsoninc.com 


You can connect with Tom at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-hughes-810bb026/ 


To learn more about what it takes to be an evolved leader, and to check out our other podcast episodes, go to:  https://www.evolvedstrategy.com.au

00:47.26
davidmcdermott
Um, Tom welcome to the show.

00:49.29
Tom Hughes
Great to be here. Dave great to be talking to you.

00:53.45
davidmcdermott
Um, what's your leadership journey been so far.

00:59.80
Tom Hughes
Yeah, look it started um a couple of years before the gfc really and I was working in law firms back then and um, you know my memory of that time pre. The gfc was that you know there was ah everything was going right for a lot of people and um. You know there was champagne flowing and and deals were being done. There was mega-mergers everywhere and I was working in the law firms at the time and you know work was pretty plentiful and um and that was where I started but then very early on the gfc came around and you know things weren't quite as easy. The champagne stopped flowing. Ah, the deals dried up a lot of uncertainty sort of you know crept in there and and that sort of that was certainly yeah formative years for me and and I think yeah during that time I sort of experienced at least 2 different types of leaders I can probably you know. Roughly put people in 2 different buckets I can put them in the bucket of well, um, you know did they did they invest in me um, and and put time into me and help me become better at what I'm doing or were they simply. You know, just using my time in order to get jobs done for clients essentially and you know obviously it's a 2 wo-way street. You know I've got to give and but there's also you know I should be able to receive a little bit as well and and I found that you know I got a lot more from those leaders who were willing to um, see me as you know worthwhile.

02:29.68
Tom Hughes
Um, as a worthwhile project and somebody to to invest in and um, you know that that there were some there were some people that I worked for who um you know in some ways and maybe it wasn't always on purpose but you know they would.

02:44.35
Tom Hughes
They held me back in some ways and so that really was quite formative during those difficult years postgfc for me as the kind of kind of um you know person and kind of leader that I wanted to become in the years ahead and so I moved through the different law firms and um, eventually I sort of came to realize that um. You know I wanted more of a management type leadership role i' I'm definitely a generalist as a lawyer you know I like to have my fingers in different pies. Ah I'm I'm not a specialist I like to be doing different things and um and so I I ended up you know I did some in-house work in some of the big banks. Um, and. You know and and and and through that I met you know a lot of good leaders. Um I met a lot of people who have been doing that role for it for a number of years and I could pick up. Um you know, different skills from different people but it wasn't just legal leaders. It was also operations. It was ceos. It was cfos. It was directors and so you know I could pick all the best bits from from different from different mentors that I was working with and and you know I've I've taken all those pieces and I've tried to put them together in ah in a coherent puzzle in myself and I mean the the journey is not finished of course. But.

03:53.60
davidmcdermott
Girl.

04:00.82
Tom Hughes
That's that's sort of where I've come from.

04:04.10
davidmcdermott
Well I think you're the first guest with a legal background that we've had on the show. Although not the first guest who's in the crypto space and I'm very excited that um, you're now you know in ah and a senior legal role for a. And a crypto-based organization which we'll get into shortly in episode 5 on the show we had Chris Ostrovsky who at the time was working for a company called silo based in the Uk and they had their own um digital coin and he was very involved in. Working with european banks around digital currencies and he's actually now gone on and is the Ceo and founder of a company called soda which is sort of ah working with central banks I think particularly in Europe to um, ah to um, bring digital currency more to the mainstream and you know. Create awareness in the in the public domain around what digital currencies are and and and get people more on board working with central banks in that area and you know 2 of the biggest topics today are Ai and crypto. So um, we've got. We've got some Ai interviews coming up. But. Let's let's focus on mawson infrastructure now and with the and the the bitcoin miner that you work for is that fair to say that Mawson is a bitcoin mining company.

05:27.68
Tom Hughes
Yeah, absolutely so the the role just before going into Mawson. You know as the head of group legal at at a financial services company but heavily tech focusedcused and so that um yeah provided a segue into Mawson which is as you say a cryptocurrency firm cryptocurrency is. In a way, a financial service but it's a new way of doing it and it's a new way of doing financial services with a new underlying decentralized technology. Um and and so yes, we we are a bitcoin minor um, and that means that we we focus on the security protocol that under. Underpins bitcoin so um, for your listeners who perhaps don't fully or aren't fully aware of how bitcoin works I mean a really simple way to think about it is as a cryptocurrency. There's a code that has to be broken and um.

06:24.20
Tom Hughes
In order to create new transactions which are then put into a ledger which is called the blockchain and so all of that replaces sort of the ledger that the that the banks would otherwise keep for for transactions and when you when you break that code and you find the password you do that with um with a computer but the thing is that over time. It's become so so sophisticated that you actually now need thousands of of machines that are completely dedicated to this code breaking task and when when you guess the right number and you break the code. Um, you are ah rewarded with the um. Chance to add to the ledger to add to the blockchain and not only that you're rewarded with bitcoin as well and so that's that's really fundamentally what we do we supply a whole bunch of computers which underpin the security of the of the bitcoin protocol.

07:18.88
davidmcdermott
And just for listeners to understand it when um Tom and I was speaking before the interview can you share with listeners the scale of you know the the computers that Mawson Infrastructure has running and the amount of power. You know, comparatively, you know to what an urban. Center might use the to run those computers.

07:38.13
Tom Hughes
Yeah, absolutely and and you know I was I didn't really realize what I was dealing with at first. Um, ah look. Yeah, we have we have 1 main facility at the moment and we're a relatively small player. We're not the biggest player we're we're a large listed Nasdaq company but there are companies even larger than us. Um, and we our main site is one hundred and twenty Megawatts and so we have dozens of of shipping containers filled with.

07:55.98
davidmcdermott
M.

08:08.60
Tom Hughes
Each of them has I think hundreds of of computers in them and one hundred and Twenty Megawatts is enough to power a small town essentially and the heat that is produced is is quite phenomenal. Um, and told that it's very very noisy. So the fans required for for cooling these machines. Um.

08:16.31
davidmcdermott
Um.

08:27.13
Tom Hughes
Ah, quite large and noisy and so you need to have these facilities away from population centers and that's actually one of the good things about the work that we do because you don't need a greenfield site. You don't need to chop down a forest or or put these on a farm on Farmland somewhere you can put these on. Um. Brownfield sites which you know they might have been an old coal field could be an old quarry could be an old steelworks and that's where our main facility is it's on an old steelworks which isn't being used for anything else. It's all concreteded up with with rusting old buildings and that kind of thing so we can bring life back to these.

08:58.66
davidmcdermott
Um.

09:05.21
Tom Hughes
Um, old facilities and bring life back to these old communities which have been you know, been struggling. You know they're sometimes referred to as the rust belt and the old steel belt of of Pennsylvania and and and Pittsburgh and so on and we're able to bring life back to those communities and and they really um. You know we we work closely with the communities that that we're in um and you know we we give back where we can to local sporting teams and high schools and that kind of thing and we really become part of the communities and that's a powerful part of what we do.

09:38.39
davidmcdermott
So yes I mean for people who've um, you know done a bit of research with with crypto. Perhaps you know, added it to their portfolio or or are heavily invested from one extreme to another. Um, it's 1 thing to you know, personally invest and and look to understand. Um you know, different coins and and what add it to your portfolio but bitcoin mining is is a totally another level in terms of um, you know, setting up an operation like that that you know it actually um, gives you a. Ah, a decent return. So what? what? Ah mawson infrastructure is doing is quite complicated to understand you know as someone myself who's spent a few years researching this space in terms of crypto and I I do struggle to really understand what's going on. But. As someone who's coming in from a legal background and as you said you know you didn't quite get what was going on when you first joined like and I'm guessing you've learnt quite a bit. Do you Um, from a technology perspective and conceptually do do you feel? you've got a pretty good um head now for you know how bitcoin mining works and. You know the actual technical side of it.

10:50.48
Tom Hughes
Um, ah, yeah, absolutely I mean look yeah the the engineers are there working out how to get the lines in through the substation from the utilities and that kind of thing but I'm learning every day and I really love working with the guys on those technical aspects. Ah, but certainly there's there's also the commercial and the economic aspect because you know we're we're monitoring. What's the what's the bitcoin price. What's the price of power at the moment. What's the network difficulty um and and so you've got to sort of balance all of those together um to figure out whether. Should we be mining today or should we switch the facility off because we can. We've also got derivatives and and the ability to sell our power back to the grid so we have to make decisions around well should we even have our facility on today because we could make more money by selling the power. Um back to the community. Um.

11:37.83
davidmcdermott
M.

11:42.31
Tom Hughes
Because there are times when the price will spike to such an extent that um the grid is actually calling out for for our power and we can hand it back to because hospitals you can't switch off. You can't switch a hospital off. You can't switch schools off. There are certain services out there that are absolutely necessary that have to be up twenty four seven ah bitcoin mine does not need to be up twenty four seven and so we can add to grid stability by switching off at those times and put one hundred and twenty Megawatts back into the system to bring down the price of power so that you know the hospitals and so on um, aren't paying the top power prices.

12:01.10
davidmcdermott
Um.

12:07.65
davidmcdermott
Yep.

12:18.10
davidmcdermott
M.

12:20.26
Tom Hughes
Um, and so there's a lot of technical aspects like that that are really interesting.

12:22.70
davidmcdermott
And how so to run you know the site of Pennsylvania is it supplied from the grid have you sort of connected up to the grid or is it. You know, gigantic generators on site. How does it work.

12:37.22
Tom Hughes
Yeah, know so the Pennsylvania site is connected up to the grid. It's part of what's called the pgm market and it's all it's all nuclear. Um, and so that's something else that we seek to do you know we we seek to ensure that the power that we're using is sustainable so that we're supporting sustainable. Um.

12:45.92
davidmcdermott
Um.

12:54.90
davidmcdermott
In.

12:54.92
Tom Hughes
Um, sources of energy and so I can say that you know down in Australia we we had a facility during 2022 which um, our site that we that we set up was set up next to a biomass facility nearby and bay. And you know we were the anchor client and it was selling. Yeah, ah the majority of its power to us and because of the fact that they had us as an anchor client they could get financing to set up this sustainable power plant. Um, now since then you know power prices in Australia have gone through the roof and they don't need us and and and.

13:20.30
davidmcdermott
Um, and.

13:28.42
Tom Hughes
And we've moved on to to focus on our our sites in in in the Us but that just shows you the power of you know if if we select our power sources the right way we can support the power transition by by becoming you know and an anchor.

13:38.80
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah.

13:45.23
Tom Hughes
Client for power sources.

13:45.50
davidmcdermott
Yeah, and it's very interesting. You know, balancing power prices and bitcoin price I mean in November Twenty One bitcoin so far hit an all-time high of around 82 grand australian dollars per bitcoin. It's now currently you know really dropped down to I think. Almost below twenty grand I don't know if it went below 20 um, as of even some months ago it's yeah it's currently April Twenty Twenty three the time of this interview so sort of you know I think late 22 it. It. Was really it. It went through a ah dip. Um.

14:07.33
Tom Hughes
It did. Yeah.

14:22.34
davidmcdermott
Still on average, an extraordinary return if you got in early in bitcoin. But yeah compared with the 2021 high it was. It was a real dip now. Currently, it's sort of back to above 40 grand australian um, how I mean you can hear so much you know on on any sort of asset.

14:25.31
Tom Hughes
So this was.

14:41.57
davidmcdermott
You know and and everyone has ah ah an opinion on Bitcoin but does maors and infrastructure have ah um, you know a long-term ah confidence around you know a particular view on um, a price that but that bitcoin might reach and and buy when.

15:00.44
Tom Hughes
Um, look we we build our budgets around. You know we we put certain assumptions in and and I would say that you know without sort of divulging too much. Um, you know we we build in fairly conservative prices into our budgeting and cash flows. Um, you know the business isn't built on.

15:12.29
davidmcdermott
A.

15:17.68
Tom Hughes
An assumption that bitcoin is going to a million dollars um you know while we are um, you know we we think that bitcoin is a worthwhile project and we we're supporters of bitcoin and and and we're behind it I mean we're putting our careers and and many of us are putting our own money behind it and that kind of thing. Um. You know we're not we're not bitcoin boosters we're not out there saying it's going to the moon. Um, we're out there saying you can earn a decent return if if you if you invest and and you do it smartly and you do it efficiently. You know this is a good business to be in and um.

15:40.34
davidmcdermott
A.

15:54.73
Tom Hughes
You know, really the the management is is very key because it's such a volatile asset and as say as I said before there's many different inputs that you need to be looking at so the bitcoin price is one So the bitcoin price obviously is quite volatile and as you've said you know during 22 it fell from incredible highs and and reached incredible lows and. And Bitcoin has done that a number of times throughout its history and you know touch wood. It's It's always reached higher highs the next time. Um, but you know managing through that downturn was quite difficult and and um, you know it was quite hard on on all of us in in.

16:19.57
davidmcdermott
Yeah.

16:33.27
Tom Hughes
Ah, variety of different ways. Um, and because we as I said you know there's multiple inputs and one of the inputs is power prices and so we were hit with um, falling bitcoin prices and soaring energy prices at the same time and and there was also a bit of a um because because Bitcoin had been racing ahead.

16:46.12
davidmcdermott
Um.

16:51.63
Tom Hughes
Many of our competitors and ourselves included had been racing to put on infrastructure and plug in more and more machines and so what that does is when when more and more machines are plugged in that takes up the hash rate which means that the difficulty of finding bitcoins goes up I won't go into you know the exact reasons behind that. But.

16:56.36
davidmcdermott
M.

17:09.17
davidmcdermott
Um, yep.

17:11.30
Tom Hughes
Um, the more machines that are online. It becomes harder and harder to find bitcoin so you had prices you know, energy prices going up bitcoin going down difficulty going up everything was going in the wrong direction for much of 2022 um and and so you know I think yeah, a lot of the team.

17:20.67
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:29.99
Tom Hughes
You know where a lot of us were there when the gfc happened and I think that a lot of us had to call on sort of our experiences from that and bring that to the fore and um, you know? Unfortunately we had to say part part ways with the number of very good people that we've worked with. Um, but you know we had to consolidate the business and um, we went through a bit of m and a where we we sold off 1 of our facilities. Um, but yeah, we went through a process of having to steady the ship and and and um and steady the course which was you know difficult at times. But. Um, the team really pulled together and it was really great to see how you know we all worked together and there was a lot of morale there and um, you know I think we've we've come together extremely well in a period that was was very difficult and.

18:20.42
davidmcdermott
M.

18:22.35
Tom Hughes
And certainly my feeling is that we're saying to turn a corner in 2023 which is really exciting and um yeah and to be been part of that executive team making the decisions and or you know certainly my role as a Gc which is you know, slightly different to that of say a c eo um. You know, being part of the decision-making process and providing advice and feedback. Um and a sounding board to to the board and to the Ceo and to the other executives. Um, you know it was a really exciting time and I think that we did a really good job in hindsight and it's not over yet, you know, but um.

18:45.91
davidmcdermott
Um.

18:56.90
Tom Hughes
Certainly along along a long road to to to to walk that. Um I think we did incredibly well considering the difficulties in between 22

19:00.11
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and well done I mean and that's just straight out of Covid You know,? let's let's not talk about that so you had Covid and then and then yeah soaring power prices bitcoin crashing and um, you know all the. All the difficulties that you just described in addition to the to those 2 challenges difficulty in terms of the technology of actually with more competitors and the nature of how you how you actually mine. It became more difficult to extract Bitcoin. Um, so I mean from a legal perspective.

19:19.69
Tom Hughes
Are you.

19:30.93
Tom Hughes
Yeah.

19:37.12
davidmcdermott
So as as general counsel you know to Mawson I I'm really curious. What are the kind of main legal challenges that you know like kind of a bitcoin min faces and has to grapple with on a you know day-to-day and and longer-term basis.

19:55.47
Tom Hughes
Yeah, So um, they're actually it's quite funny bitcoin mining in some ways sounds So um, new age and and ethereal and mystical and metaphysical and so on but in many ways what we do is quite mundane I Mean. We we plug computers in and turn them on and at the basis is really what we do. But when you look at it. It. Yeah, it is obviously more complex than that you know we have to find a site. We have to find a site that has Power. We have to find a site that's um.

20:23.80
davidmcdermott
Um, food.

20:33.17
Tom Hughes
You know, ah can suppli us with cheap sustainable power that is um, you know close to infrastructure but far enough away from population centers that it won't disturb anybody um and so so there's a lot of property work. There's um, a lot of yeah working with utilities. There's a lot of because it's a capitalintensive business. We have to you know, buy the miners. We have to buy the the containers that that they're in we have to buy the transformers and that sort of thing so it's very capital intensive. So there's vendor vendor financing. There's equity capital raisings and when Nasdaq listed.

21:04.56
davidmcdermott
Um.

21:05.79
Tom Hughes
And so there's all the obligations that come along with a Nasdaq listing and you know having our disclosures with the scc. We're audited so we have all of our annual reports that we have to do. There's a lot of compliance around that and so part of the role of the Gc is you know? um. Unofficially I'm the head of risk and unofficially I'm the head of compliance I'm also the head of the the corporate secretariat. So you know making sure that the the board is speaking to management and that there's a good flow of communication between management and and the board. Um, and and that takes a fair bit of judgment in terms of.

21:29.82
davidmcdermott
Yeah.

21:45.51
Tom Hughes
Um, how to message. Um, how how to how to transmit those messages between management executive and and the board and make sure that everybody is understanding. What's happening nobody has a um, um.

22:01.78
Tom Hughes
Yeah, everybody has the right view of what's going on but also making sure that the messages are pure and and and are correct and and and transmitted the right way.

22:09.72
davidmcdermott
And in terms of leadership. So I mean and you know you've mentioned that you know how the technology works and you know some of the ways that. Mawson benefits the planet which um, yeah, there's an there's an ethical aspect which I want to get into in a moment after after this next question about leadership. So from from a leadership perspective. You know, working in in a and general counsel role.

22:35.53
Tom Hughes
Oh.

22:44.45
davidmcdermott
Ah, not not just at Mawson but previously what what have been your biggest insights about leadership so far that you have to share with listeners. You know whether it's hard-won lessons or you know things that you just were really clear on from the beginning of your career and what what are your top and leadership. You know. Gems that you'd like to share.

23:06.25
Tom Hughes
Yeah I mean my my view on leadership has changed quite a bit um over the years you know I so I suppose when I first started thinking about leadership and what it meant to be a leader you know I sort of had in in my mind. Um, you know. The king on horseback in shining armor riding up and down in front of the troops. You know, crying some battle cry and some speech to to rally the troops and send them into battle. Um, that was sort of my view on on leadership but over the last few years I've really come.

23:27.96
davidmcdermott
Um. Are.

23:37.81
Tom Hughes
The conclusion at least in my role as ah as a general counsel and as you know a leader in the risk and compliance sections. Um, ah that my role is is actually quite different. You know I'm I'm not ah, not necessarily the Ceo I don't stand out the front necessarily my role my leadership role. It comes from a much more subtle. Um place where I'm nudging people giving people ideas suggesting advising um and and I also feel like I guess that's 1 aspect of it and the other aspect is.

24:14.84
Tom Hughes
What I want to do is ensure that the people around me are working at 20% of their yeah one hundred and twenty percent of their best you know so that my presence with them. Enables them to do better than what they could have done on their own. Um, and so you know. I'm hoping that each time that I'm working with somebody they they either learn something new or they do something in a different way or they're improving themselves and and that the the output is better because of you know my my input and ah ah, certainly learned. And I watched very closely some of my mentors at you know places like hub 24 and so on um, you know I've learnt to try to speak last? um, you know to to hear everybody else. Um before I step in and have anything to say if if.

25:01.12
davidmcdermott
Um, you.

25:08.89
Tom Hughes
If if that's the role that I need to play. Um and I guess just going back to my first point around you know leadership for me is is a much more subtle role in terms of suggesting and and nudging and creating a space where other people can make ideas and make decisions for themselves. Um, just to to round that out a bit further. Um you know one? Ah, one of my most satisfying one of the most satisfying things that can happen to me is when I've been. Putting an idea out there and I've been planting the seed and I've been doing it for a while and this was especially the case in my last role you know I was the head of legal at hum twenty four. It was quite a large place by the time I left it was it had grown from 100 employees to 500 or something like that and the chains of command were quite long and and the chains of command out to. Call center and and and yeah the sales team and so on we're getting longer and longer. But what I and the and the technology team. But what I really loved was if I'd I'd been banging on about a few things and just nudging and nudging and nudging and then eventually my idea would suddenly come back to me. And somebody would repeat back to me the thing that I'd been saying for the last couple of months and I was like ha I've done it. You know people are starting to make decisions based on the things that I've been saying now for some time and I know some people think that oh that's that's people stealing my idea and taking the glory. But for me.

26:36.61
Tom Hughes
That's actually my influence going right? to the top and decisions being made on things that I've been saying for quite some time and that that was actually you know so I think that goes to the type of leadership that I think that a Gc brings to the table. You know it's not.

26:44.51
davidmcdermott
Yep.

26:53.27
Tom Hughes
Not necessarily being out the front and and forging the path for everybody but enabling everybody else to forge the path for themselves.

27:00.17
davidmcdermott
And is that about repetition which is one of um you know the um, the tasks of senior leadership is ah you know repeating key messages consistently and regularly even though you know it's not necessarily particularly exciting work. So that. So then ultimately it really lands for employees is is that really what you're talking about is you had this clear idea of what was needed and you repeated it enough times that over time you saw that people got it and they were or was it was it something else.

27:30.43
Tom Hughes
Um, yeah, that's certainly part of it. You know, um in my role as the head of risk. Um I'm trying to interweave risk concepts throughout the business to make it just part of the fabric of of how we do everything. And um, and instead of instead of sending out. You know a long email to everybody reading them the ride act or sending out a long policy or something like that. You know the way that I'm doing that is is sending out small bite size pieces of information on a regular basis. Um, so that. And as you say they will repeat themselves these messages over time because you know people might not necessarily make the connections. The first time that they see something or read something but then once they've seen a few other pieces of the puzzle. When they see one of the early pieces again. They'll say ah now I know where that first piece fits in with everything else. Um, and so you know quite often quite often. You find yourself doing the same jobs again, but doing them better. Um, and you know. There are cycles within businesses and there's an annual cycle because we have annual reports and we have annual meetings and there's a crypto cycle. You know there's winters and there's there's boom times. Um, and so you see some of the same themes and same issues coming back to you at different times and.

28:57.83
Tom Hughes
And each time hopefully you you deal with it better and maybe maybe um, you know you delegate it better or you you help the other person do their job better and um, you just keep getting better at what you're doing and like you say there's there is an aspect of repetition to that because you have seen a lot of these things before.

29:15.89
davidmcdermott
Absolutely you also Tom spoke about a speaking speaking last? What's the effect of that when you are the one who speaks last.

29:32.43
Tom Hughes
Well sometimes you don't even need to speak at all. Um, and I think that's even better because you're you're empowering the people around you um to to do their jobs. Um, and there's nothing better than having your team doing the job without you having to put any input in.

29:48.59
davidmcdermott
M.

29:50.34
Tom Hughes
Um, and um, you know if if it is that you just need to confirm. Um, then then that's great Sometimes obviously you know more more more guidance is required and perhaps I don't have the answer. Um. Yeah, perhaps we need to take it and up to another level. But yeah, it's It's best to allow everybody to to feel like they've contributed to have contributed. And to know that their work is is valued and that their work is actually moving the company forward on on the project or whatever it is. They're doing um and that they're not having somebody on the executive team cut across them. Um, yeah I've never belittle people. But yeah, they're they're not feeling like they're. That their contributions are being devalued in any way because you know they've been able to put everything on the table. Um, and then you know you're able to say Yeah, Actually you've got it right or look. We need to tweet this and this or actually I think there's an extra step that we need to go through before we get to that So you've heard the full story rather than jumping in and. And trying to so drive the narrative yourself I mean look sometimes you need to get in early and and put a frame around things and um and and guide the the story from the beginning but but so often I've just found that listening and then.

31:07.49
davidmcdermott
Um, yeah.

31:16.40
Tom Hughes
And then trying to come in later in the conversation is is very helpful.

31:19.88
davidmcdermott
Yeah, and I'm so glad you've raised that point because this is such an issue you know in my and leadership leadership development work with clients and this is one of the great challenges of group and not only group conversations. But also you know when there's 2 people in ah in a conversation is. Ah, lack of real listening and it comes out with interruptions or you know, ah when the questions is asked speaking about something that's not relevant but particularly um ah a lack of dialogue a lack of flow in the conversation and and really just ah, you know a sort of low level. Shouting match where it's ah it's a dump of opinion and the other yeah 1 party is simply waiting for the other party to stop speaking so they can state their own point which is just totally unhelpful. So I'm I'm really glad that you've drawn this out this this point of really listening and. Um, either speaking last or not at all and of course with the caveat that yes there there are times where you do need to introduce a frame or something at the beginning and I'm a big fan of stating outcomes at the beginning of a meeting or workshop or however, large or small the group size. So that everyone's clear about why we're meeting and then you can pull back and listen I mean historically I am you know the the great orator of pericles in terms of the ancient Greeks was well known when he came into a ah forum he would be silent.

32:53.35
davidmcdermott
And he was well known for being the last to speak and when he did speak people listened so that principle. Ah um, stands the test of time.

32:58.67
Tom Hughes
Yeah, absolutely.

33:06.15
Tom Hughes
Yeah, and look you know that it can be right for for the leader to come in and and and state what the framework is but um, you know I'm even I'm even more impressed when you know, um. I can come in as as the as the more senior person in the room but everybody else has actually done the framing for you I mean when they've when they've actually framed it correctly and and they've actually ah understood what? all the points are and and they've.

33:24.88
davidmcdermott
Um, yeah.

33:31.58
davidmcdermott
Um.

33:32.48
Tom Hughes
They've done it themselves I mean what? what a great scenario. You know your your team is really working Well if that can happen but there there are times when when that's not going to happen and you really do need to to to give direction.

33:36.26
davidmcdermott
Yep yep.

33:44.30
davidmcdermott
Yup, absolutely so I I met I touched on previously the the ethical question and you you may or may not have a perspective but I'd like to ask that there is you know when we talk about not just bitcoin. But um, you know cryptocurrency. Ah. The the question of how it benefits the planet and you know I have my own views on that and I shared a few of those in episode 5 on this podcast with k chrisosstrosky around how um, it's something like one eighth of the world has access to you know, conventional the conventional banking system that we in the west are so. You know, used to and and assume that you know everyone has this but so something like 7 eights of the world may not have my maths exactly correct, but it's definitely way more than half um don't have access to um, you know, conventional banks and the world of cryptocurrency actually has opened up the the.

34:28.10
Tom Hughes
Shit.

34:40.48
davidmcdermott
And possibility for the the majority of the world's population who don't have access to to the banking system to in a way have their own banking system finally simply by simply through ah a very basic mobile phone and it it can become and give them the ability to have ah a bank account. It It Not only allows that it also allows people who you know have traveled abroad to work and send money back to their family to provide for their family and to do that without high transaction fees which has been a major issue you know financial. And services companies charging very large fees for for international transactions. The world of crypto really completely solves that problem from from what I understand so there there are you know there are a whole whole other bunch of sort of Ethical. Um. Potentially potentially you could say resolutions to ethical problems that um, that crypto presents and and maybe alternatively some um, some concerns the other way. But what's what's your view on crypto and ethics very broad question.

35:49.70
Tom Hughes
Yeah, look I mean I'd probably start at a slightly higher level I mean because ah you know I'm quite aware that um there are ethical issues with the way that bitcoin operates. Um, but I would say that you know I'm not the kind of person that believes that. Um, that some things are purely good and some things are purely evil um I Do believe that um you know people you know people especially um, have a good side and the dark side. Um, and you know people will allow either the good side or the dark side to shine through more than the other. If if you're not aware of your dark side then then you should really become aware of it. Um, and you know you can look at certain. There are certain professions out there or certain businesses out there that seem more pure than others and yeah, you could look at. For example, doctors and you could say well doctors are doing and. Um, ah pure pure good. You know they're helping people they're curing people and so on Um, but then yeah know from time to time. The odd doctor is influenced by you know a phar a pharmaceutical company to use a drug that maybe isn't the best for clients for patients in every scenario. Ah, do know of you know, um examples of doctors operating where there wasn't really a need to Operate. Um, so even in that scenario where you've got what looks like a completely ethical profession on um on the face of it and you know doctors are in a very.

37:05.70
davidmcdermott
Ah.

37:22.49
Tom Hughes
Lucky position to to have a profession that is is so highly esteemed. But even their you know ethical issues can creep in so I just I guess I just wanted to put that sort of framework out there that you know pure good and pure Evil and I'm not sure that that really exists and so.

37:29.60
davidmcdermott
M.

37:38.65
davidmcdermott
Um.

37:38.65
Tom Hughes
That's egues into look I'm fully aware that bitcoin has a dark side and and a good side. Um, you know the power that is used to to to generate. Um, bitcoin is is very very high and I can't remember the the statistics but I think at one stage that I was saying that you know worldwide. Bitcoin mining um accounts for the same amount of energy as the whole of the Netherlands uses in a year or something like that. Um, so yeah, there is a drawback to that and that's why almost all of the I think all of the the Nasdaq listed miners for example are very focused on ensuring that they're using sustainable energy.

38:05.32
davidmcdermott
Um.

38:15.48
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah.

38:17.19
Tom Hughes
Um, and yeah, that's certainly part of the package that in order to have that social licence to continue to operate. Um, we all need to be backing renewable energy sources. Um and ensuring that more of them come online and and as I mentioned.

38:32.86
davidmcdermott
Um.

38:36.35
Tom Hughes
Um, you know that that ability to to curtail our activities when um, power needs to be used for other things which are more important which might be you know, powering schools or ensuring that um that the factory that's producing shells for the Ukraine walk can run.

38:54.88
davidmcdermott
Who.

38:55.55
Tom Hughes
Efficiently you know we we can do that but then but then there's the opposite. Well not the opposite side but the the other aspect which is the more sort of metaphysical metaphysical aspect. Not the physical sort of power aspect. But the the actual cryptocurrency that we're underpinning which um as you say gives an opportunity for the unbanked. In in the world to to have access to somewhere where they can potentially store wealth and look you know bitcoin is it is highly volatile. Um, and it it goes up and it goes down. Um, but it is a very accessible way for people to store wealth. It's not gold. It doesn't need to be stored in a safe. Um, it doesn't need to be. You know if you want to give it if you want to transfer it to somebody. You don't need to sort of physically take it and give it to them. You don't need a bank. You don't need to walk into a branch ah a branch and and and have a third party there. Um, you know it's far less complicated than in some ways I suppose than opening up a brokerage account and so on and and there's a lot of places in the world where people just don't have the opportunity to to open up a brokerage account. You know to have an online trading account. Um, and so on so you know I think bitcoin bitcoin I think is fifteen years old now or thirteen years old and I'm quite sure I can't remember I mean if you yeah yeah, so if you think about your Apple Mac or or your.

40:11.99
davidmcdermott
Yeah, it was around the Gfc that it came out. So yeah, that's that's sort of 15 years

40:25.54
Tom Hughes
And know your your dell laptop or or something from thirteen years ago if you took that to a repair shop. You'd be laughed out. Um, yeah so bitcoin's actually been around for quite some time and I think that there are more protocols that will be developed and are being developed right now. Ah, that will solve a lot of these problems in a much more efficient. Um and and better way than bitcoin does but bitcoin is it's it's the go to cryptocurrency at the moment. It's it's the one that has it's been most resilient. Um, you know the algorithm is is most fair, it's it's while. It's it's the most transparent of ah I would say of most of the cryptocurrencies and and that's why it's backed by by so many people and and it's trusted and it's it's come through quite a few different crises and and so on and and continues to be there. Um. And so there's something in that that it keeps surviving and it keeps coming back and it's been doing that now for 13 years So I I think that you know trust will continue to grow. But it's not just it's not just bitcoin I mean we we also Mawson has a um, an investment in a a filecoin company. Um.

41:22.80
davidmcdermott
M.

41:39.96
Tom Hughes
And filecoin is is looking to be the web 3 for data storage. So at the moment you know the web 2.0 is Amazon it's um, it's Microsoft. It's Google they control you know that that enterprise level storage solution. And the the next level is web 3 and it a decentralized storage solution and we have like I said we have a 20% investment in a company that you know by providing storage um to enterprise level entities. It earns filecoin. Um, and so that's a really exciting application of cryptocurrencies. Um, and um it it doesn't use the same level of power that say bitcoin does and so you know you would look at that and go wow that's that's a really great solution really sophisticated. You know it's come in later than bitcoin. It's newer. Um, and so solve some of the problems that that you know the earlier cryptocurrencies may have had.

42:39.36
davidmcdermott
So Tom I'd love to continue at length and dive into a whole bunch of other questions but we're at time and thank you so much for your time today and I'd like to ask for those listeners. You know who want to. Learn more about Mawson and you what's what's the best way for them to do that. Ah and or to reach out.

43:01.59
Tom Hughes
Yeah, look um I'm I'm always looking um at my Linkedin page so that's probably the easiest way to find me. It's just you know Tom Hughes I'm currently at Mawson Infrastructure Group Inc so happy for people to reach out and send me a message and yeah I'll try to get back to them.

43:13.51
davidmcdermott
Cool. So we'll put that in the show notes and thank you very much that was really fascinating.

43:22.31
Tom Hughes
Thanks! It was absolutely pleasure talking to you dive.