The Evolved Leadership Podcast

#26 Amplifying Illusion: How AI Is Making It Harder To Know What Is Real, with Muneesh Wadhwa, Founder of Humanity In Business

• David McDermott

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My guest in this episode is Muneesh Wadhwa. Muneesh is a Commercial Director at 6 Degrees Media, a business that hosts world-class events, executive roundtables and conferences that bridge the divide, bringing global innovation rock stars together with local tech legends and unsung heroes. Muneesh is also the Founder of Humanity In Business, an organisation focused on improving employee engagement, fostering innovation and building inclusive leadership capability by facilitating collaboration between corporates and not-for-profits. 


Prior to his current roles, Muneesh was the MD of CIO Network, a peer-to-peer subscription-based community of IT executives. The objective of the forum was to provide senior IT executives with the opportunity to share experience and learn from the experience of their peers.


Muneesh is a community builder and a connector. For over 20 years, he has been bringing corporate executives together to share experiences and inspire action for business outcomes through better leadership. He is passionate about building community and fostering collaboration between stakeholders, taking a purpose driven approach to business, and exploring the role of ethical technology in business and its impact on humanity. 


Some of the highlights of our conversation include the story of an ex-meditation teacher turned CEO, applying design-thinking principles to solve problems for the not-for-profit sector, exploring the ethical implications of the explosion of AI, how AI is amplifying illusion and presenting a challenge to humanity of not knowing what is real anymore, and understanding that there is no true leadership without self-awareness.


Enjoy the conversation.   


If you'd like to learn more about Humanity In Business, go to: https://www.humanityinbusiness.com.au 


For info on 6 Degrees Media, go to: https://6degreesmedia.com.au


You can contact Muneesh on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/muneeshwadhwasydney 


To learn more about what it takes to be an evolved leader, and to check out our other podcast episodes, go to:  https://www.evolvedstrategy.com.au

00:45.23
davidmcdermott
Um, maneesh Welcome to the show tell us about your leadership journey so far.

00:48.76
Muneesh Wadhwa
Thanks so much for having me David.

00:57.63
Muneesh Wadhwa
Well, my background is has been pretty much in the events industry I'm um, I'm a passionate community builder I'm really passionate about people for the last over twenty years I've been doing pretty much the conference industry I started off back in the day. In Hong Kong organized but selling sponsorship for corporate hospitality events which was fun was doing that for a while and then in the same company I transferred over and started selling conferences, sponsorship and events and really passionate about you know, getting people together and. And connecting people so that's been pretty much my journey for a while and then over that time I set up Cio Network which was the it peer-to-peer knowledge sharing forum and whileless I was facilitating the Cio Network in Australia when I came back. Ah, from the Uk and I was running the it directors forum in the Uk which was ah I you know I t forum on for cios I realized it in over 10 years of facilitating um conversations with cios and senior leaders in it. We were coming back to the same conversations over and over again and most of the conversations were about building trust with the business employee engagement. You know the challenges that the leaders were facing with their teams and I was like wow there guys. We just talked about this conversation literally three months ago and again it's coming back.

02:19.10
Muneesh Wadhwa
And so those couple conversations were kept repeating themselves were all about leadership and I was like there is and I study started looking around out of all my members we had around 40 um corporate members who were part of the Cio Network at that time and I started looking and having a think about you know. Who are the leaders in my network like really inspiring leaders that I would look up and say wow I like to work for that guy and I really couldn't think of anyone not a single person and maybe actually there was one. There was one a guy called Mark and so I was like wow where are the leaders in technology. Why is it there any leaders there and because we were just having the same going around in circles having the same conversations. And so towards the and nofci ah network I came to a point where I was just like wow there's a leadership challenge and we need to talk about it and at doing that time as well. I went through my own personal leadership journey and I was going through my a breakup with a girlfriend and that was quite a painful process and that changed in that. Process of having the breakup with my girlfriend really started to make me question my own leadership style and who I was and why I was doing what I was doing and and I was like wow I need to look at myself. Do things differently because as a person. Whatever I've been doing so far has not worked for me. Um, and to you know to be a to to it rate and go go to the next level I need to be a different person so I did a lot of introspection and self self personal development. Lots of books as you can imagine reading all the ehart tolles of the world.

03:40.10
davidmcdermott
3

03:41.50
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, and at the same time. Ah what was happening was I was looking in my network and seeing that there was a huge gap around technology leadership. So I was like wow okay I'm I'm experiencing at the same time. My challenge of leadership is going through the same challenge that I'm seeing with my members who are part of the Cio Network and so I realized that. It's very important to have this leadership conversation so actually sold the c out network to a consulting firm and moved on and set up humanity and business and humanity business was really all about leadership conversation. So over the period of a couple of years I did probably over 14 or 16 conversations around leadership. Um, conferences ratler where we basically tell stories of leaders who are you know, purposed driven valuesd driven. Um and sharing their perspective and their stories to inspire more people to step up on their leadership game but I did tell you I got to tell you that it was quite challenging finding inspiring leaders in the corporate workplace. Um, particularly in large organizations there. Not many of them around and so for me to tell the story was quite um, satisfying and it was really a ah great space to for me to be able to actually amplify their story just the way you're doing it through to the podcast.

04:55.17
davidmcdermott
Well, that's really really interesting to hear and um, yeah, it's amazing in terms of your your breakup that you talked about how a breakup in a relationship painful though it is can actually propel us to to search more deeply and and and develop.

05:11.10
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, correct.

05:11.30
davidmcdermott
Ah, in in whatever way we need to and and out of that can come growth if if you're the kind of person who reflects and and looks to you know, upgrade and and consider you know what? what worked? what didn't and and what does this mean moving forward both personally and and professionally I'd love to hear you know you you know.

05:29.87
Muneesh Wadhwa
Correct and I think also just but just David before we go on to the next point I I want to mention that one of the things that I did see amongst all the leaders who were speaking at my conferences was that all of them had went through ah a point in time or a point of crisis in their lives.

05:30.49
davidmcdermott
You know, sorry go on.

05:45.12
Muneesh Wadhwa
So it's almost like one of those things where great leaders who I've seen speak and also been part of my network have been through some sort of a personal crisis or an aha moment as some people would like to call it. Um, and that's been ah and and it happened to me as well and I can name.

05:53.70
davidmcdermott
Yes.

06:02.88
Muneesh Wadhwa
Pretty much anybody who my network who I engage with have gone through some solar similar crisis as well.

06:05.10
davidmcdermott
Yes, and and just simply by being a human being you're guaranteed to experience at least 1 possibly a number of crises to varying degrees of intensity and the question is will will it or will they crush you or you know are you able to get up. Once you've once you've recovered to the point of being able to you know, reflect and grow and and actually become a stronger person and that comes down to character and and temperament I'd love to hear you.

06:24.46
Muneesh Wadhwa
Direct.

06:32.78
Muneesh Wadhwa
Spot on spot.

06:37.96
davidmcdermott
In our conversation just before and this interview you ah you mentioned the conferences that you've you've hosted and the the training that you've run in in various ways I think roughly fourteen of these conferences so far, you've mentioned with humanity and business and I'm interested in your.

06:53.26
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yep.

06:54.51
davidmcdermott
Ah, comment just there that you found it quite difficult to find examples of purpose drivenven leaders in in the corporate world. But I'd love to hear who have you found and ah, you know what? Ah what are some examples that you you share with your work with humanity and business and elsewhere.

07:11.76
Muneesh Wadhwa
You mean terms of actually names of leaders.

07:13.82
davidmcdermott
Yeah, those that you can share without breaking confidentiality.

07:18.84
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yeah, and I mean I they all they all make with a website I mean they've spoken to my events so a couple of one standouts a gentleman called David Cook who's x Ceo of Conica Minulta who's also now was the the chair of the un global compact network. Um. And he was one of the bigger inspirations of me creating the forum of the forums that I do right now around. You know the bringing together corporates and not-for-profits to collaborate. So David was a but a meditation teacher himself prior prior to becoming a Ceo or and getting into the corporate world. Um. But as a Ceo being purposed driven. What he what he did really well was he not only engages internal stakeholders and engages employees through getting them to collaborate with the not-for-profit sector but he also engage external stakeholders as well and you know customers and notfor-profis and suppliers and. That alignment between internal stakeholders and external stakeholders was exceptional and that's what I call a truly purpose driven organization is when you're internal and external stakeholders or have the same experience together and are aligned in terms of their mission. In terms of ah alignment in terms of how they operate with you so and the perception of you so employees loved working with David he had highest engagement scores he was he was creating profit in a downward declining industry in the printing industry. Um, so.

08:46.20
davidmcdermott
And.

08:47.37
Muneesh Wadhwa
His ah profit margins were going up unlike his competitors and he was his employee engagement was in the late eighty s percent plus 85% plus and so he really leveraged amazingly what he did really well was he engaged in not-for-profit sector. Really engage the teams to spend more time with them to go out and do with them but also as a leader he empowered his team to get on and do what they need to do so that for me was quite impressive. Not only he did internal engagement but he also did external engagement and. You know, putting the customer at the center of everything he did along with his other stakehold external stakeholders as well.

09:23.65
davidmcdermott
Really really interesting and I I haven't heard of David but um, it sounds like a great example and I'd I'd love to I'd love to learn more. Did he speak at 1 of your conferences or was it more a case study example.

09:39.18
Muneesh Wadhwa
No, he did he did speak at my conference he was at one of my own one of my events I think it was called leading happy workplaces and so he was definitely one of the speakers and yeah, just an incredible leader and the other guy who comes to mind is also ah Steve Vamos this

09:55.62
davidmcdermott
Yes.

09:56.30
Muneesh Wadhwa
Former Ceo of 0 which is a accounting software firm. Um, really big on big on leadership always talks about change leadership and the importance of focusing on people so he was also and the former Ceo of Microsoft as well as we had a. You know he had the opportunity to work with Steve Jobs back in the day when he was at Apple again. Exceptional leader. He just stepped down from zero as the global Ceo I think a couple of months ago very impressive leader as well and I did a video interview with him last two months ago as well so there are a couple who I definitely hold in hard regard. Um. Rachel Aguman who I'm interview interviewing again. The Ceo of opal age opal health care which is a healthcare care age care provider. She joined aged care opal age care just before the royal commission into aged care and you can imagine that. New Ceo taking the job and is being grilled by the royal commission in terms of ah into aged care industry and she is her culture is exceptional and she's already proven it. She's um, created one of the best cultures in the age care sector and she was a benchmark for the aged care sector as an organization. So. Truly impressive leader in ah in an industry which is being you know, struggling with culture and mistreatment of their customers. She was kind of leading the way in that space. So again, a very impressive leader there too. So I could go on with a couple of more but that's a couple of highlights there for here.

11:13.29
davidmcdermott
Maybe.

11:22.26
davidmcdermott
Yeah, well really, really interesting and and let's shift now to you know what? humanity and business actually does because you know listeners are probably wondering. Okay, so what are these conferences about what's the context can you can you tell us now.

11:34.93
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, so.

11:39.98
davidmcdermott
What do you actually do with humanity and business. What's the purpose of the organisation and and ah, what's the vision moving forward in terms of the impact you'd like to create in the world.

11:45.55
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, so.

11:51.10
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, so I guess so we we started off as a conference company which is very much about you know, telling stories of great leaders and sharing stories of what leaders are doing and how they're bringing purpose and values into our organizations and also how they're building you know, highly engaged workplaces and. For me was the initial start and I always looked at how leaders bring in values in purpose into the different subject matters expertise. So for example, how you're bringing values and purpose into project management into customer centricity into change management. To change leadership and leading change initiatives and transformation initiatives. So all my conferences have been trying to look at you know values and purpose from a business lens around how that actually has impact on things that matter within the organization such as customer centricity and driving project and transformation. Within organizations so that's been my thing and then what I did was you know David's conversation and involvement in the event. 1 of my events is quite transformational in terms of engaging with the not-for-profit sector and how we did engage that and I was like wow that's really cool to be able to not just create a great culture internally. But also engage external stakeholders and for me that's true purpose and you know a purpose of organization. So I started looking at how we could how employees could better work with you know, there's a lot of volunteering going on out there people going out one day a year doing their thing packing lunchboxes etc. But what David did was really well beyond that he actually.

13:18.23
Muneesh Wadhwa
Use the skills of employees to create impact. Not only just but their with the not-for- profit but also lift engagement further within their Organization. So I was like Wow then I started really getting interested into looking at skill volunteering and what that looks like and I realized that. People are much more engaged in in helping community and not-for-profits when they're actually using their skills to give back because they feel much more able to contribute versus just packing a lunchbox or a hamper and so at the same time I Also. Came across the idea of you know, human centered design and design thinking. So What we are now doing is that we bring together not-for- Profitfits. We scope out a project from the Not-for-profit sector and what we then bring as teams of employees to hack those problems for the Not-for-profit sector um and use.

14:05.79
davidmcdermott
And.

14:11.21
Muneesh Wadhwa
Diverse skill sets of teams of say 4 to 5 people per team to solve business challenges for the no-for-profit sector so that becomes um we can have a team of say thirty forty fifty one hundred executives and we did one earlier this year last late last year with Grant Thornton where we basically there was around one hundred and eighty employees and each broken up to teams of 4 or 5 working with ah with 6 teams working with 1 not-for-profi or 4 teams working with one non-for-profit. So it's a great way to actually collaborate between teams and colleagues who you don't normally work with. Um, and also have you know work on a strategic challenge which you normally don't work with and in your workplace and so it really pushes employee thinking pushes creativity pushes strategic thinking innovative thinking and also they learn about design thinking while they're actually solving the problem for the no-for-profit.

14:59.42
davidmcdermott
The.

15:03.80
Muneesh Wadhwa
So it's not only just giving back. But it's also a learning opportunity for employees to actually learn from the experience and and and chat and push their thinking to a higher level.

15:14.33
davidmcdermott
Really, really interesting and um, ah with the design thinking component I mean I have a background Indesign thinking with my time at second road are they sort of taking these projects to the point where they're moving through the phases of intent setting discovery ideation.

15:22.68
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yes.

15:30.13
davidmcdermott
Prototyping implementation How how far do you take? you know the actual execution work.

15:34.96
Muneesh Wadhwa
Well, we we get to through to the ideation. So the idea of the hack. The hack is a very much a one day thing or two half days and then they come up with a solution at the end of the hack and then they use they use volunteers and their teams as well to then deliver on the solution post hack on their own time.

15:41.49
davidmcdermott
And.

15:53.66
Muneesh Wadhwa
Because companies do have volunteering days and they have lots of employees who can help so they can pass the batton between a couple of employees to then ultimately deliver deliver the solution but at the end at the end of the solution we are building a recognition model so that we can recognize all the people. Been involved in the not only just the hackathon but also of the delivery of the solution as well.

16:17.26
davidmcdermott
And is it a ah for profit model or is it a ah charitable exercise.

16:22.15
Muneesh Wadhwa
Not very much a for- profit model So companies sponsor the hackathon and they sponsor the day and it's very much but funded by the corporates who want to lift employee engagement.

16:33.54
davidmcdermott
Faith.

16:35.76
Muneesh Wadhwa
And kind of really push their employees to think differently and think innovatively.

16:41.53
davidmcdermott
Cool. So the and the benefit to those companies who sponsor the the events um ah that the the employees you know, get to tackle a ah ah very much purpose focused problem in you know for a ah relevant not-for-profit and then both get the benefit of you know. Feeling direct contribution through that and also I guess taking learnings and skills back into their role for the company. They worked for. Yeah.

17:06.60
Muneesh Wadhwa
Back to the organization correct correct correct and I think ah but when coming back to the vision of humanity and business to come to your point is the idea is eventually to you know, bring no-for-profits and. Corporates to work together all the time around strategic business challenges and create shared value in Action. So you know I think this whole thing about division between not-for-profits and corporates is old school. There is a whole new raft and you you're familiar with the shared shared value as ah as a concept where. There is plenty of opportunity for companies to dig a bit deeper with the Not-for-profit sector and look at opportunities for innovation and they do exist the key the key with that is that you have to align the corporate industry that the industry of the companies in such as construction with not forprofits that are in Homelessness. For example. And um, and you know financial literacy The financial services sector with financial literacy and financial vulnerability. Um, you know so you have to align the industries where corporates and not-for-profits working to be in the same industry and that's where the higher chances of innovation tend to happen. And so the vision of humanity businesses is really to bring together corporates and enough-profits particularly in the same industries together to foster a sense of innovation to connect employees to a sense of purpose and to create truly ah a Stakeholder-centric ah model. That's also sustainable which is the key.

18:31.40
Muneesh Wadhwa
And to collaborate on innovation rather than just you know, look at it as 2 different organizations and there's a lot of innovation opportunities there.

18:40.38
davidmcdermott
So how how did humanity and business develop I mean every every organization has a beginning somewhere was it ah sort of an idea that you know you you met with um some interested parties and just started something.

18:47.95
Muneesh Wadhwa
And then.

18:54.60
davidmcdermott
However, many years ago and it built from there. What what's the story of of the founding of humanity in business.

18:57.46
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, um.

19:02.60
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yeah, so I was um, you know, whilst that time on I was going through my whole personal development challenge and you know the breakup of the girlfriend and everything um I came across this community called conscious Capitalism Um I don't know if you're familiar with them. They're big in the Us and they have branches around the world.

19:13.73
davidmcdermott
Um I have heard of them. You.

19:19.56
Muneesh Wadhwa
Conscious capitalism is set up by a founder called rasodia who is also an indian and I came across them online years ago and I messaged them in the us and said wow I love what you guys stand for conscious capitalism is the way forward and i'm. Message them in the us and say I would love to launch you guys in Australia and and you know I'm an events guy. This is what I do and I love to help you out so was so they said well we've already given the rights to somebody else in Australia you need to approach Kate so I send a message to Kate and as said, Kate hi I saw you you're going to launch conscious capitalism here. I love to help you out and you know I'm an events guy and this is my background and she goes yeah come and join and so it was very much one of those um not-for- profitt communities. They're building just like a lot of the non-forprofit movements out there that are um, you know, ah very much something people do on the side hustle. Not their full-time job. Um.

20:08.51
davidmcdermott
Then and.

20:12.71
Muneesh Wadhwa
And so I was I kind of you know, kept pushing them to create more events and do create a business model which you know could pay for itself and and and create something out of it that becomes a actual running functioning business but somehow it just remained a um, not-for profit and didn't really go anywhere.

20:18.79
davidmcdermott
Is.

20:24.71
davidmcdermott
In.

20:31.91
Muneesh Wadhwa
And so I was like well I need to continue this conversation because there's not enough conversations being facilitated by them and I was quite frustrated by the slow pace of movement because it wasn't something that they were doing full-time. So I had said well I need to do my own thing and I and I launched humanity in business out of that. There was a bit of friction there as you can imagine they were like well you're competing with conscious capitalism I said conscious capitalism has multiple facets or or I guess focus areas and one of them from I said I'm purely want to focus on the leadership side of things. And that's where I focused only on leadership conversations and what does leadership look like and so that's what the Hib was born. It was very much inspired by the conscious capitalism movement in the us and um I I know I met Raj as well who was the founder there. He did come to Australia at 1 point and also I met him in India through some other network. And so here we are.

21:24.13
davidmcdermott
And how long ago was that.

21:28.58
Muneesh Wadhwa
Oh this was probably a good at least ten years ago what are we not to that? Yeah, probably twelve years ago now 12 to thirteen years ago

21:36.90
davidmcdermott
Um, so it's been around for a while and and that's um, ah ah, a decade of of growth.

21:43.41
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yeah, it's been around for a while I think also and I've ah I've had my own challenges around consistency in terms of running because it's been. Ah, it's a hard space to particularly from an events place. It's a hard place I've I've struggled from a um. Getting engagement in in our conferences with humanity and business in spite of us having you know, typically hundred people attending the conferences. Um the number of people who were from a corporate workplace was actually limited in terms of how many would justify budgets to send to these events.

22:20.23
davidmcdermott
Earth.

22:21.79
Muneesh Wadhwa
And so it was it was It was a hard slog and to be honest I've in the middle as well trying to get the numbers to come to events I decided that and getting sponsors also was a bit difficult because there were leadership driven conferences and so there was no real clear Persona excuse me.

22:37.43
davidmcdermott
You know.

22:40.94
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, who is the head of hr or the head of marketing which sponsors can target. Um, it's very much leadership is everyone so we used to have a attendee list that where everyone so sponsors were also looking specifically for a particular corporate executive would say well who is the Cmo so sponsors would be challenging to get as well. So. i' kind of as much as there were been I've I've done these ovens events over a period of time and it's been also more something which I've done as a passion project. Not a full time gig um, and they've continued to be a passion project until this date. Um.

23:09.20
davidmcdermott
E.

23:16.37
Muneesh Wadhwa
And yeah, that's where I'm focused at the moment that now is something that I'm doing along with my other stuff as well.

23:20.78
davidmcdermott
Yeah, so tell us about your other stuff.

23:29.47
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, so ah, you know, but recently I decided that I also wanted to you know, look at this recent onset of Ai and artificial intelligence has been a big piece of curiosity for me. Um, and I sort of looking around and saying okay what other things can I allocate my energy and resource to along with humanity in business because I do have capacity and you know, um I would like to give humanity a business a break for a while and so I've been thinking about the impact of ai on humanity and. Um, really concern as to how it's going to impact business as well as humans purely based on the fact, the capability of it if it gets into the wrong hands and so ° media is an organization i' working with right now. Amazing organization that do great events are on Ai and impact of Ai on business is.

24:19.23
Muneesh Wadhwa
Is actually where I'm focused on at the moment. Um, so that's really what they do is bring together speakers and and and sponsors that are focused on having the conversations around artificial intelligence and the impact on business.

24:34.70
davidmcdermott
Well, you're in the space of the hottest topic right now and probably will be for quite some time to come and and also it sounds like a similar ah similarities in model to what you do with humanity and business in terms of events speakers. So that's you know, very.

24:39.19
Muneesh Wadhwa
To her.

24:50.93
davidmcdermott
Very much um, a link there we had Ross Farrelly direct director of Ai at at Ibm as a guest on the show previously and Ross also had a background with the st james ethics center and in that episode on the show. We talk quite a bit about the ethical implications of ai and I know.

24:54.50
Muneesh Wadhwa
Correct.

25:10.69
davidmcdermott
Speaking to you previously. That's that's also an interest that you have so let's dive into that one. You know what? what is your perspective regarding Ai and and ethics and um, you know what? what potential scenarios are moving forward.

25:15.74
Muneesh Wadhwa
No.

25:26.28
Muneesh Wadhwa
I think you know it's funny. This thing about ethics David I mean everyone talks about ethics but I don't know very few people know what it really means and I think none of us how how many years of ethics education. Did you do in high school and college.

25:38.41
davidmcdermott
I Can't remember a single subject called ethics.

25:44.90
Muneesh Wadhwa
Thank you So including me neither I didn't I I did nothing So if no one knows what and and no one's been educated about ethics. How are we supposed to look at what that looks like in the workplace If we're lucky to been. You know if you have the right family and the Upbringing. You know you you get you learn about ethics along the way as you do. But the reality is that very few really can describe what ethics even is and even and what it actually looks like in the day-to-day work except when they come across a decision. They have to make and they're right? Oh wow, This decision is actually a a tough One. We have to be careful here because. You know so that's when ethics suddenly starts to jump out because they come to a crossroads of a decision making point and they realize that is this the right thing or the wrong thing to do and I think that's really what I I like you know for me is as simple as that is this the right thing to do or is this the wrong thing to do um and I think that's what all people get nowadays is is that the right thing or wrong thing. And so to keep it to that level. But I think for me, it's more the whole Ai conversation is much more about just ethics. But I think the the degree of misinformation that can be created and disinformation whichever word, you want to use along with the usual ethical challenges of the right thing to do or the wrong thing. Um, it's going to but it's going to happen and I don't think we can control it because like everything in the world. There's always good and bad and there will always be be bad. No matter how much you want to fight the bad the bite The bad has never never never left the world and never will. It's part of humanity and who we are so.

27:17.00
Muneesh Wadhwa
It's one of the things I realized you know all we can do is um, kind of a step that is going to happen and be the best prepared that we can be so I guess from a humanity perspective which is what I'm ah focused on the issue is really going to be around not knowing what is the truth anymore.

27:34.81
davidmcdermott
A.

27:36.90
Muneesh Wadhwa
And I think for me the number 1 challenge is going to be around understanding the truth and what is the truth and really where we're going with this and the whole convergence of social media is really what social media is all about is is about getting mind share and engagement right. What does Facebook Instagram and Linkedin try to do they want engagement and so what? what we're doing now with Ai is now taking that social media objective of engagement to the next level through fake information and fake news where. It's seeking your mind share and it's going to do whatever it takes to get your mind share right? to basically convince you or not or convince your or the word I heard somewhere was intimacy. So what Ai will do really well is create intimacy with humanity. And by creating intimacy. It's not Ai. That's going to be the bad guy and do the bad things to you. It's humans who going to be be intimate way ai and ai is going to give them ideas and ways in which to do it and feed them information which they want to be able to create havoc or create misinformation. So it's how proximity and how close we start getting to Ai which is going to be the challenge. Not so much ai itself because thei can't do anything without humanity. So it's us who going to be ultimately be there be our own so where I see this all going is very simple is that we're going to be basically.

29:01.38
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, going crazy because we will not and be able to know what is really and what's fake anymore at some point in time and the information presented to us on any other social media networks or emails or anything like or on Tv who can you trust you know how will you? How will you know? what is real when too. It's like. And the indians have ah have an amazing word called Maya which is called which is illusion and it is going to It's going to amplify illusion to such a high degree that you just basically we're going to leave humanity paranoid.

29:24.56
davidmcdermott
A.

29:37.94
davidmcdermott
It reminds me of the movie the matrix what you're describing where um I forget that I forget that? Yeah I Forget the name of the character but you know there's one of the um sort of the rebels who are who's defecting and actually sort of um.

29:43.55
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, probably a hundred percent absolutely

29:54.25
davidmcdermott
Going over to the other side with with I Forget the name of of the particular characters but he's eating a steak in the matrix and he's eating this steak and drinking a glass of red wine and he's saying to the the guy in front of him. You know as I'm eating this steak. It's just delicious I Know it's not real, but it's delicious and that.

29:59.81
Muneesh Wadhwa
Correct.

30:13.97
davidmcdermott
That's the image and the memory that came to me as you were as you were talking So specifically I mean that's in the context of this idea of the matrix you know where people are plugged in and and they're sort of living this virtual life in some world while in reality their body is actually sort of in this mummified state. You know.

30:18.52
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, tell me.

30:33.37
davidmcdermott
Run by a world of drones. But what? what are you seeing? Are you sort of more seeing that people will struggle to understand what's and genuine information and what's fake information or to the point where in terms of what's coming at us in terms of Sensory Data. We actually struggle to distinguish between what's real sensory data and what's fake What what level are you talking at.

30:52.88
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, yes.

30:59.57
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yeah that's exactly it I mean it's all about everything is everything is data so ai feeds on data right? So the question is people say oh ai doesn't have consciousness of course it doesn't but it can pretend it does right? So that's the problem is the pretending of. Of it not having consciousness and saying all the right things which you wanted to say or are looking for so the the challenge is really going to be around what is really and what is fake. That's where the problem is going to lie and I think we don't have a solution for that unless you have to tag every single bit of data that comes out of every single Ai generated machine. Um, to know whether it's truth or fake and who's who's created it. Everything has to be literally tagged and tracked back to the creator of that piece of information. Otherwise we will have no way of knowing what is real and what's what's what's the truth I mean already it was last um.

31:53.40
Muneesh Wadhwa
Last a couple of months ago there was a photo of of the pentagon in the us being ah being a bombed and the stock market dropped in the us by 2% so that's the tip of the iceberg of what what this is capable of doing and we haven't even started yet.

32:01.74
davidmcdermott
2

32:07.90
davidmcdermott
Yeah I and I I know I mean so many people are diving in and using chat gpt I I heard of a case recently through my network of ah and I believe it was a business who you know put together. A. Ah, landing page case study section of their of their page and used chat gbt to um to come up with some relevant case studies which you know is unethical and there were 3 historical examples that chat gpt came up with unbeknownst to the creators of the of the page they were entirely fictional and chat Gpt just created fictional scenarios and they weren't actually historically accurate and sure enough it was fairly quickly discovered and the page needed to be taken down and they needed to actually write real examples. So.

32:51.61
Muneesh Wadhwa
Tried.

32:58.95
davidmcdermott
Yeah I mean that's just 1 level of what you're talking about is sort of fictional data that that artificial intelligence can create which sounds plausible until it's actually checked with historical records and um, yeah, that's just a ah small example of of um how how much fraudulence can actually occur.

33:07.31
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yep.

33:13.54
Muneesh Wadhwa
Correct correct correct you know humanity This is the for for me this is the next bit of next situation of humanity in business is going to be a next iteration of humanity business is going to be very much about you know how do you? How do you bring you know media as a force for good and actually.

33:17.93
davidmcdermott
So where where did we? yeah go on.

33:33.20
Muneesh Wadhwa
Tell stories of authentic tell authentic stories and how do we create transparency from businesses to actually um, you know, not just do good but I should tell the tell the truth because business has a responsibility to tell the truth and I think we need more transparency in business as well.

33:48.40
davidmcdermott
Yeah, so I do I do want to ask about ° media and it may or may not be relevant but is there a link between what you're doing with ° media and your work with humanity in business directly.

34:02.63
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um.

34:08.28
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um I think it's probably the more the ai ethical side of things is the link. The only link at the moment and I think that's going to become a bigger conversation because it's early days. It's not It's not a key focal point. It's included in our conferences but it will be included I think more and more as as time goes on. So. Um, we've had a tremendous response for the conferences this year because obviously you have Ai where it's at. But I think even next year the conference is going to get even bigger and and the ethical ai is going to have ah even a bigger focus because something will everybody will be everybody will be talking about.

34:39.73
davidmcdermott
Well, we're we're coming up to time and I'd I'd love just to ask a final question of know you and you you have a leadership role with humanity in business and ° media at the moment and you know. Previously a whole range of experiences. What? what are your top leadership insights for listeners that you'd you'd like to finish on today from ah from the history that you've had so far and in your own leadership journey.

35:01.50
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yep.

35:13.67
Muneesh Wadhwa
I Think number one piece for me is um, Self-awareness I think without Self-awareness there is there really isn't any Leadership. You know all the time knowing why? what? I'm saying why I'm saying it what I What am I saying it? Why am I saying why am'm I saying you know the why behind whatever I say and do. Is something that every leader has to adopt in any organization. The best leaders. Do it really? Well and the most heated organized conversations in the most uncomfortable conversations. Always that sense of self-awareness or on why I'm saying what I'm saying is is probably something that I've always seen as the key. Leadership Um, the other thing I realize also is is empathy and compassion easy said and done. Um, you know we always tend to think about me being right? Always knowing the right way but seeking to understand and understand what's going on for the other person and putting myself in the other person's shoes. Again, Very hard to do because you know I have an agenda I need to deliver an outcome. You need to see the way. It's done in my way. But I think it's just seeking to understand where the other person's coming from understanding their their viewpoint and they're thinking behind the process of why they think the way they think and and and questioning that to seeking to understand that. So. That's only when you can have some empathy and compassion as if you seek to understand Otherwise there's no empathy. It's very hard to demonstrate that so questioning more rather than responding more and finally I think the last one is you know, knowing why you do what you do and always and Beyond just the word purpose which is kind of thrown about very randomly. Ah.

36:49.34
Muneesh Wadhwa
Purpose is a kind of you know it's a big word I think it really boils down to being being of service I think who who is who are you being in service to first besides yourself and your own agenda. You know who are you putting before yourself. Is it your team. Is it your state who stakeholder in in a corporate context or business context is very much about initially putting your team before me and putting what the team's looking for before me and then obviously looking at how does the team support other stakeholders and how can they put themselves. Put the stakeholder before the team so without the team as the primary stakeholder. We can't take care of the external stakeholder because if you don't care of the kick take of our teams then who will take care of the stake. The customer. So I think we forget the importance of putting our teams before us.

37:31.70
davidmcdermott
A.

37:39.48
Muneesh Wadhwa
And I think the the famous saying goes leaders eat last is really what I remember and that's very much true. It's putting other needs before before my own.

37:44.35
davidmcdermott
Yep. Yeah, and it's amazing I mean in your and share there. You just touched on the three pillars that we we teach leadership teams that evolve strategy of emotional intelligence leadership styles and high performing teams. You just nailed the three pillars in in summary.

38:01.19
Muneesh Wadhwa
Um, a.

38:05.59
Muneesh Wadhwa
Well there you go? Awesome! Dr.

38:05.66
davidmcdermott
So yeah, you're you're really onto it there so maneeche for for listeners who would like to learn more either about you know, humanity and business or more widely. You know what? you've started to go into with and with generative Ai and Ai and and ethics etc. Um. Question 1 you know what resources or um, websites et cetera would you direct them to to learn more and and 2 if if they'd like to reach out to you and ask questions or um or the organizations you're a part of what's the best way for them to do that.

38:39.16
Muneesh Wadhwa
Yeah, thanks David well just humanity and businessiness dot com or website and the same thing ° media dot com you find your linkedins probably the best way manish ward 1 Linkedin and I'm sure as you post this on Linkedin. They'll see a way to connect with me but I'm really grateful David for your leadership as well for you? um. You know doing these podcasts I think the more we have over these podcasts and to share the share the share the word. That's it's very much needed. So thank you.

39:07.24
davidmcdermott
Absolutely generating awareness as ah as a force for good maneesh. Thank you very much for your time.

39:11.56
Muneesh Wadhwa
That spot on. Thank you so much David your legend keep up the great work.