#28 Improving Retention Through Servant Leadership, with Michelle Mandl, GM of Customer, Communications, Marketing and Engagement at TOMRA Cleanaway

My guest in this episode is Michelle Mandl. Michelle is currently the GM of Customer, Communications, Marketing and Engagement at TOMRA Cleanaway, Australia’s leading total waste management, industrial and environmental services company. 

Michelle is an experienced waste, resource recovery, and sustainability executive with 20+ years of industry expertise. She focuses on stakeholder engagement programs that deliver scalable behaviour change. Michelle is known for creating an empowered team within a lean organisation and has demonstrated executive-level representation throughout her tenure. Michelle’s national-level responsibilities ensure TOMRA Cleanaway is recognized as a premier network operator of container deposit scheme services.

Highlights of our conversation include diving deep on container deposit schemes to recycle highly valued commodities, exploring what actually happens to our recycling bin waste, giving back through charitable Board membership, getting top retention rates through a servant leadership approach, and leaning in to sliding door moments.

If you'd like to learn more about Tomra Cleanaway, go to: https://tomracleanaway.com.au   or on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tomra-cleanaway 

You can contact Michelle on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-mandl 

To learn more about what it takes to be an evolved leader, and to check out our other podcast episodes, go to:  https://www.evolvedstrategy.com.au

Chapters

• 9:30 Return and earn: recycling highly valued commodities
• 13:14 So what exactly happens to our recycling bins?
• 26:14 Giving back through charitable Board membership
• 29:24 Getting top retention rates through a servant leadership approach
• 31:24 Leaning into those sliding door moments
• 35:24 Who was an inspiration to you?

Transcript

00:46.14
davidmcdermott
Um, Michelle welcome to the show so tell us about your leadership journey so far.

00:48.79
Michelle Mandl
I thanks so much David.

00:58.45
Michelle Mandl
Um, ah I Ah, found this an interesting question. Um, even though it's obvious why I've been invited to be on the show but my leadership journey so far probably started when I was at school if I reflect back on my. You know, interests and passion and activities that I've always been involved with I've always been in positions where I had a role leading people in programs and representing So I've always been quite comfortable being at the front and being responsible for decision making. And that's something that you know if I think about back to primary school. Even you know our our primary school had a score mofo of strive to achieve and that's something that I think I've taken with me through life even though it was such a very long time ago. Um, and in terms of you know, applying that to to what's. Occurred in my career as a leader I think that I really do have a view that you know as ah as a leader of people I'm ah a coach and a guide and I have a job to represent and do the very best I can for them and that's something that. I Believe I do to the best of my ability these days in my role leadinging people and um across the the journey of my career I've had roles again where I've both led people or programs sometimes mutually exclusive. You know there've been no people involved in my direct boarding lines sometimes there've been large groups.

02:28.20
Michelle Mandl
But it's really been a privilege whenever people are involved to create a team and um build a team that has capacity and can be empowered to you know do really? well. Um, and that's something that I'm I've been really proud of and at the moment in my in my career journey and my leadership journey. Um I Begin. Building a team and building capacity and it's it's something that is truly truly fun and and empowering as well as a leader to be able to do that for other people.

02:55.84
davidmcdermott
Yeah, and your current role is with Tom Rale away which we dive into more and shortly but what you know in terms of your organizational journey. You know, however far back you want to go and and kind of the.

03:13.21
Michelle Mandl
I.

03:14.45
davidmcdermott
You know the primary roles that you've had up to now you know what? what are the significant parts of your organizational journey that have shaped ah you know? Ultimately yeah, the leader that you are today in the role that you're in.

03:29.98
Michelle Mandl
And I think that I've always been in a really privileged position where I've um, I've been able to you know define what it is that we're trying to achieve so you know I've had. Had quite unusual roles I've I've always in most recent years worked in a corporate environment where where a service provider and and the organisations I've worked for have been service provision. Um, based so the things that we've been able to deliver are services for. Different types of communities. You know for my role with thomasleway now it's the whole of New South Wales for example for return and earnm for the new south wales container deposit scheme but formally in my previous roles. It's been distinct. Um community groups associated with local government areas. And I've been able to you know be at the forefront of development of programs with my teams that help educate that help um help build behavior change in relation to resource management waste management for particular groups. So um, you know the the. The the journey organization-wise has sort of gone from different sized um groups that we're serving to to really quite large large groups of community members that um that we've been responsible for providing services for.

04:54.84
davidmcdermott
Okay, and you know you mentioned return and earn so is that kind of a core focus area for your work now.

05:03.80
Michelle Mandl
Yes, so time. Mc cleanway is Australia's premier service provided for container deposit scheme network operation and what that means is from end to end from when a consumer wants to return, an eligible contain for 10 sets tole away will provide. Um, the collection point or return point for that consumer to gain that ten cent refund but then we also are responsible for delivery delivery of all the backend services as well. So that is the collection and the responsible recycling of the commodity collected. Um, and in New South Wales yes um our experience is delivering the return and noon container deposit scheme but we've also just been successful in being appointed to um, delivering services for the west zone in Victoria which is across 28 local government areas in western Victoria where we will be delivering. Network operator services. Also.

06:01.47
davidmcdermott
Okay, cool. Well I already have a bunch of questions. Um about what you're doing at the moment in in this space. But just yeah to give the context can you just give you know a quick and summary of what does Tom Mclenaway do in terms of you know it's its main. Service and service streams and what do you specifically? do ah in your leadership role. There.

06:28.61
Michelle Mandl
Sure so Tom Mcle anyway um provide as I explain network operator services that means providing the return points or collection points for eligible drink containers. So consumers are able to go in return them that could be a multitude of different types of. Return points or collection points either averse thining machine an over the counter an automated depot or a smaller format machine so these are receptacles that that ultimately a consumer returns containers into the material that we collect is so separated and because it is sore separated. It's. Highly valued commodity. Um that you know at any given day of the week we could receive a phone call requesting access to that commodity for purchase because it's so so clean and so so capable of going into circular outcomes. So that means model 12 care to care outcomes which is you know the the ultimate goal. For anyone involved in waste industry and recycling in terms of my role I am the Gm Customer Communications Engagement Market I'm responsible for looking after a branded proposition for tonicle away and ensuring that you know we're working. Within the scaffolds of our contracts as well because ultimately we're contracted to the new South Wales government and in Victoria the victorian government and that means making sure that we're compliant as well as you know, effectively communicating to our communities about our services that we provide and amongst my.

08:00.75
Michelle Mandl
Role I am um also very privileged which I'm not sure you'll hear many people say but I am very privileged to look after customer service brow services as well. So Tom Mclenway runs the customer service center for all of New South wales and little for the west. So only for Victoria also so that means having that. Understanding capacity building with you know the coalface with the people actually using our services out in the field.

08:28.79
davidmcdermott
Right? So I have a confession to make that you know I'm I'm probably a bit naughty and I've always read about the return and earn schemes but never actually participated in them. Ah, and you know perhaps after this interview that that's about to change as I learn more. Um, so I have a question about you know how does it? How does it work of of say at least within Australia 20000000 or a bit more people. Ah how many? um. Adults. You know who who are in households would be participating in these schemes is it like 10 percent 20% etc. That's 1 question. Um, and I don't know whether this is in your space as well. But I've always my wife and I were talking recently about recycling and and it's been an ongoing conversation. And I've always you know dutifully separated out recycling and waste in the different bins that councils pick up at different places I've lived and I have heard and it is of course hearsay that ah it doesn't really make much difference and the recycling sort of ends up in much the same place as the waste but are you able to. Respond to both those questions you know what really happens is it sort of council by council and it's really different or is there is there a consistent you know process anywhere in Australia that that will pretty much be followed. So I guess yeah, the percentage question first on how how much participation is there in return and earn schemes and then the the broader one about.

09:56.60
davidmcdermott
What actually happens with these recycled bins recycling in the recycling bins.

10:03.61
Michelle Mandl
Um, look I can I can speak about what we know because we operate you know in a particular jurisdiction and container deposit schemes are actually a state based Legislated um, produced a responsibility scheme. So there's actual.

10:15.43
davidmcdermott
A.

10:19.91
Michelle Mandl
Policy and legislation that sit behind the the actual mechanism that we deliver but that's actually what makes it so strong. So we we speaking on behalf of you know our organization. We have fabulous participation. We have fabulous support. We have fabulous. Trust you know all of all of the metrics around. Um, you know the new South Wales capability is excellent. You know it's something we're exceptionally proud of and it's certainly, um, certainly that capability and that that that endorsement that's helped us move into other jurisdictions and in terms of you know. How um how recycling works you know I would question why we have such a large recycling industry but didn't work and it was all going to the same place as waste I think that's an underpinning point that that needs to be made. But if you've heard of the war on waste. Tv show that's hosted by Craig Rucastle and on Abc um season 3 was just published recently on Abc and we were quite lucky to be featured in episode one of their season 3 so they actually came to our facility and and showed you know how successful and and. Demonstrated using our services our facility and return and earn best practice of what can be achieved with resource management because ultimately that's goal. You know these types of systems schemes recycling. It's trying to shift the consumer mindset to this is a waste item to this is a resource.

11:53.44
Michelle Mandl
Because anything that we pull out of the ground anything we manufacture anything we make anything we invest time or effort into is a resource and ultimately you know you have to go through that same level of effort and investment if not more to make use of that item again. So. As a society you know we should have a goal of circular outcomes for all the materials that we use and ensure that we're we're shifting that mindset around. Um you know waste to a resource and certainly one of the things that a contained deposit scheme does very easily is commodifies a waste item by having a ten cent at the moment deposit value on it that the customer can gain back if they participate in the scheme in their respective jurisdictions and in terms of you asked a question about you know, different councils and the way different councils manage things. It is very um. Very distinct in different local government areas but generally speaking they're casting ah a bit of a brush across it state by state. There aren't dissimilarities necessarily because each state has their own underpinning regulations surrounding. What happens to waste and resources in their state. So councils need to comply and ensure that they're maintaining minimum requirements in that regard. So for example in Victoria um, there has been the introduction of.

13:19.98
Michelle Mandl
Ah, four bin system for example, as well as the container deposit scheme. So really lifting that opportunity to separate materials out into reusable recyclable waste streams is of considerable importance to Australia in terms of our our manufacturing and. And so on because not forgetting that recycling means that we're actually creating products that can go back into manufacture.

13:43.74
davidmcdermott
Yes, so I mean there's return and earn which is you know you you actually need to obviously collect your and you know your aluminium cans or plastic bottles and or whatever it is and take it to a center yourself It's not part of sort of the the normal weekly pickup. Um, with with the weekly pickup. You know when the recycling bin goes out I mean is is there in your in your experience a fairly involved process of actually sorting out you know cardboard from plastic and and that and that material actually being recycled and. You know going back into manufacturing or used in useful ways.

14:26.61
Michelle Mandl
Yeah again I go back to that underlying Premise There's a lot of effort to go to if it's all just going to waste isn't it. You know what some point you know there's been I think ah a big um a big impact to trust.

14:31.10
davidmcdermott
That's right.

14:41.12
Michelle Mandl
In recycling in Australia off the back of things like the recycle collapse. Um, but again you know I've been involved in in industry for many many years and um, there's no point doing it. You know the the way that the materials that come through.

14:44.21
davidmcdermott
E.

14:58.89
Michelle Mandl
Containered deposit schemes like patternanun are treated is in Essence not dissimilar again you through recycling you take materials in you separate them out into commodity types and they get treated and and sent for um, reprocessing manufacturer you know beneficiation with their commodity room because. Once they're separated by type. They're commodity so they are different. They're They're not a waste item. They're not just a recycling item. They're commodity.

15:27.40
davidmcdermott
Well, that's really good to know you know, just personally but also for listeners I know like if I'm asking it I wouldn't be the only 1 asking this question and there probably is some useful work to be done around. you know dispelling you know what what's clear is ah untrue. Myth that you know it's not really worth the effort and you know does it really make a difference will it from what you've said yes, you know there really there really are stringent processes around separating out the waste and um it would it would be good to create more awareness around that for the general public. Ah so.

15:59.79
Michelle Mandl
I.

16:03.29
davidmcdermott
I'm I'm also interested. We've had a previous guest Ryan swenen on the show who who is the Ceo of ssoomy which came from the world's biggest garage sale big investment by office workss led to ultimately becoming what's now. So economymy in ah, a business that's growing very steadily and and. Based on. Ah you know taking um products and and materials that would otherwise go to landfill and repurposing them for ah you know into useful items office fitouts is a big thing. They do you know, taking materials and fitting out offices as well as refurbishing phones and all sorts of materials and. You know Ryan and I talked about that at length. Are you guys also involved in that in terms of tomralenerway the the repurposing um aspect of of you know the whole recycling and waste space.

16:55.19
Michelle Mandl
We? No so we we are very very specific in our function and you know our organizations very proudly. Um, collected hundreds of thousands of tons of clean stream bottle to bottle Ken to cairn commodity and. In in Australia you may have heard that you know in the last few years we've had waistbands that means that there's been considerable domestic investment in recycling. Um and you know we have nearly 100% of all material. We collect going into domestic markets. So you know we've been able to be part of. The the improvements to recycling in Australia overall with um facilities. You know off the back about our um, clean commodity being developed like circular plastics Australia down at Aubrey and you know I've I've heard that there's some interest in. Um. Setting up smelters again for aluminium in Australia because there's such an increase of clean stream. You know, material coming through all the different container deposit schemes that are now in Australia and and once Victoria and Tasmania Tasmania is the other state that does not yet have a contained deposit scheme. Um, implemented once they come alone. Australia will be I think it's the first country in the world or continent that is 100% covered by a deposit return system. So.

18:17.64
davidmcdermott
So for people like me and probably other listeners who just need a little bit of an incentive to you know, take the time to actually physically collect. You know these items and take them in somewhere because most people are pretty busy and you know there is an extra thing to do. What? what are your tips to you know, get it into people's lifestyles because this is separate to the standard bins that get picked up weekly and fortnightly as I understand how how do you recommend that people engage with these schemes. You know in a way that's workable with busy families and you know but having to create space to store them. The items until you take them in etc.

19:00.43
Michelle Mandl
And Lo I think um, identifying um, what eligible drink containers. You actually produce is important and in New South Wales certainly we have um, an app where you can you can download the app both find out where you're nearest. Return point is as well as check your eligible drink containers so you can um you can scan the barcode of the container to find out if it can be refunded and then just start storing it separately so it can be as simple as you know, ah a reusable tub. Yeah, we use those flex tubs at our house. To to collect our containers in and then whenever somebody does their supermarket run. We take it with us and and return it to our local reverse mending machine and it's really it's really not a challenging task and the whole design. Specifically our network as Tom Mcleway is around leveraging consumer um behaviours. So we colocate in you know, high footot traffic areas like supermarkets retail precincts sporting grounds et cetera to make it easier and convenient.

20:03.78
davidmcdermott
Um e.

20:08.13
Michelle Mandl
Um, and certainly across New South wales anyway there's hundreds and hundreds of return points for consumers to access and I'm fairly certain that that's the same in other states especially in places like Queensland and.

20:19.18
davidmcdermott
Cool, Okay, well, that's yeah, that's great to know and and very helpful for listeners So people ultimately I think just you know they won't prioritize something unless there's a bit of an incentive and it and it sounds workable. So this sort of information is very useful.

20:35.80
Michelle Mandl
And.

20:35.19
davidmcdermott
And just ah, how to incorporate it into you into what you already do and now I know Michelle you've got a speaking engagement coming up and I I want to shift the focus to you know what are you focused on yourself moving forward and with the mission of Tom Mcle away and what you're doing there. You know with whether you have anything to say about your um, you know the upcoming event you're speaking at it and other things. But what's you know? what what's hot for you coming up.

21:06.42
Michelle Mandl
I Um well in terms of the speaking engagement for the um waste management Association. It's quite an honor to be asked to present certainly um, early on in my career when I was. In the waste industry I was surrounded primarily by men. There were very few women in the industry and when you reach a stage in life and you get married and decide to have kids I was finding that anyone around me was leaving industry and they weren't staying once they had children which was which was quite.

21:32.20
davidmcdermott
In.

21:40.30
Michelle Mandl
Ah, disheartening I guess so I'm not quite sure what the word is to use but I'll say disheartening and and that actually led to me in 1 of my representational roles. There were goingolds representing um getting together with my peers in a working group that we were in to establish this women's leadership. Breakfast so it wasn't a breakfast at that time, but it's evolved into being a breakfast itself annually and it's for all women whereas when I started with my peers. it was for young professionals and it was a networking and development. Um activity. So that's coming up on the thirty first of August which is excellent I'm looking. To that very much because um, you know I feel a little bit like I shouldn't probably be there because of the peers that I'm standing up with but it's a great honor. Um, and in terms of you know Tom Mcle away and what I'm doing at Tom Mcle anyway the contract award for us for the upcoming. Victorian container deposit scheme which starts on one November I'm really focused on building capacity with my team I'm so um, proud to have been able to recruit some fantastic people that as a collective you know we have very different skill sets very different. Experiences and and now it's the process of bringing everyone together as different pieces of the puzzle to you know, deliver an outcome that that helps um the consumers that we will work with in the west zone of Victoria participate in the container deposit scheme down there and in.

23:14.94
Michelle Mandl
In regards to um, you know what? I personally am moving towards I've been um, using this year to probably invest in my learning and education a little more again and I've been involved in. Lots of representation positions over time and and been involved in um, lots of different governance type activities but I will be joining a charitable organization board in the coming months and I'm really looking forward to that and that's part of that that sense that i. Ah, feel that I need to give back I've I've reached that stage in in my career that it's actually okay, well I've got all this learning I've got this network I've got this experience. What do I do with it now and I am I think that being able to contribute to you know, social and environmental betterment. Go back to my call That's what I'm about and you know being involved in this particular charitable organization. Will I think hopefullylf some of that that need that's innate in me to to give back.

24:20.71
davidmcdermott
Well let's dive a bit deeper into that because that's a perfect opportunity to to transition to um, a focus on your leadership insights. You know that was really really interesting to hear about Tom Ralenaway and you know what you do there and what.

24:26.28
Michelle Mandl
And.

24:38.90
davidmcdermott
What the mission is and how it's going as well as you know some of the particular focus areas. But I'd I'd like to shift now to you as a leader and you know what you've learned which which would be useful to share with listeners including that aspect of giving back and and that you've got to this point where you are feeling ah a need for. You know something ah some some way to give back and and you gave the example of the the board membership with ah with a charity and but my my question is just for you to respond to in any way that you like is what are your leadership insights that that have come through. Your own journey of trial and error and mistakes and learning and successes et cetera that as you reflect now you realize for others who are revolving as leaders. It would be helpful for them to know.

25:26.92
Michelle Mandl
I I was really privileged to hear a speech at my children's school this year from the school Principal that talked about servant leadership and it really resonated with me the Principal you know was welcoming all the new school leaders and I was really pleased that my. And children were able to hear that and it's not a concept that I really understood. But when you know I listened to the Principal Speech and winway and did a bit of research it really resonated with me and it's servant. Leadership is something that's probably at odds with Corporate Western world and the way that you know organizations. Um, build outcomes and build towards outcomes. But I I think you know reflecting on my insights I've been really privileged to always been a role that has been delivering for greater good and that maybe that's me having roast-colored glasses about what I'm doing I've always worked for corporates but you know and there's always been. Um, the corporate side of it and their outcomes to be delivered in terms of you know economic benefit. But I've been able to um through my journey see you know how I'm delivering community and environmental benefit as well as economic benefit. So It's you know a full sustainability package that I've been able to be involved with and while servants. Leadership tends to focus on how many people you serve. You know, not the not the what's in it from me. But what's in it for for the cohort and the group and the the wider bed and that um I sort of take the view that servant leadership and and my view of leadership is about you know how you can deliver.

27:02.71
Michelle Mandl
Benefit for as many people as possible and as many things as possible across that sort of that triple Bottom line outcome Really? Um, and that's that's something that I think I have been able to to do successfully because we've always had fantastic. Um, engagement results. Um, in my team. You know we've had really consistently high. Um, you know engagement from staff members as well as staff retention. Even if they're not necessarily um, you know. In in the highest ranked role et cetera you know and even on customer service Team. We've got fantastic in engagement and that's typically quite a challenging role in terms of in Redemption redemption. Ah so retention pardon and I think um.

27:56.43
Michelle Mandl
Being authentic is really important as well. So my my team generally know who I am and know what I'm about and and together and it's not about me. It's about the us but together we we? Um, we're working towards the same goals and and I think that that's really important. You know it's it's not. Ah, leader is only as good as the the people that they they they work with and I don't mean you know necessarily peers I mean you have to work with your team. Um, and again leadership for me is about being the person that's willing to stand up and be responsible for others. Um. And that means giving them the opportunity to try and and and to speak up and and participate as active group members and and I I think um, probably the biggest tip I I would suggest is leaning in. And you know I tend to be at the view if something scares you you should do it so you know we we always have slidingdoor moments in our careers and I was reflecting on sliding door moments in in my my career over time and I think there's probably 2 that I regret not leaning into. Um, because I was scared but you know 1 didn't happen because of lifestyle at the time the other the other the other one I didn't lean into purewe because I felt like I was being asked to say no whereas I reflect on it and I wasn't and um I think if if something is sort of making you feel a little bit uncomfortable. You should probably do it.

29:29.62
Michelle Mandl
Um, and I don't know if that's going hence the you should go with you. You go with your instincts but lady that's my that's my view.

29:40.20
davidmcdermott
And of course you don't have to but are you able to give us kind of a very broad sense of what perhaps one of those moments might have been without giving away you know and any any private aspects or confidential just ah yeah, a broad brush.

29:53.20
Michelle Mandl
I Yeah, that's my um, yeah look um I think and when you're a mother especially or you've got young children life is life is quite different. Your responsibilities.

29:54.77
davidmcdermott
Picture of what that What one of those stories was.

30:10.90
Michelle Mandl
Um, and your purpose are different I'm certainly speaking of my experience so I was offered a job as a general manager of a consultancy um of not quite a decade ago on in the last decade um and I I knocked that back and I sort of you know I reflect. Upon what my life would have been and what my career would have shifted if I if I'd actually taken up that opportunity and and then the other role was you know, being questioned by you know, a really trusted um mentor about you know whether I was interested in going to operations and of course. Ah. Work effectively in the waste industry and and being queried about you know whether I wanted to go into operations. This was the sliding door moment and I I felt like I was being challenged to say no and I said no no no I don't want to go into operations but um, actually I was already in operations. It just didn't involve trucks and and drivers. And in the waste industry that technically is operations. You know I was running an ah in-house waste consultancy business I had people moving all over the place I was reporting it was quoting. You know there were all sorts of programs going on so I was involved in operations. It just wasn't the traditional operations for the industry I mean.

31:21.82
davidmcdermott
E.

31:25.73
Michelle Mandl
Um, and I think that that's one of those moments where I I would have been out of my comfort zone very much so doing something in that vein. But I said no because I felt like I was being asked to say no or challenged to say no which I don't think I was. I was outright being asked whether I was interested.

31:45.29
davidmcdermott
Really interesting and I'm sure listeners will resonate We we all have those moments and of course it's in the the benefit of hindsight we can look back and say you know? Ah, what could what would it have been like if I had that or this or etc and and everyone has those and um.

31:58.95
Michelle Mandl
And.

32:02.93
davidmcdermott
I hope that your your story there will encourage you the listener to to reflect on what you know those those significant pivot points were for you and things that you either did or didn't lean into but particularly where you are now. Um, how. How did that decision shape your journey you know to to get to where you are now whether whether you did lean into a particular thing at a point in time or didn't and um, that's a really interesting question to reflect on I'm I'm a great fan of. Understanding your story of how you got to where you are today and and owning that story and being proud of it including the times you didn't lean in and the things that you didn't do or you know the things that happened that were traumatic which if they didn't happen. You know it's likely you wouldn't be the person you are today. So yeah, thank you for raising that.

32:43.98
Michelle Mandl
So.

32:55.85
davidmcdermott
Um, you know that that aspect of ah of a leadership journey.

33:00.75
Michelle Mandl
No problems.

33:04.97
davidmcdermott
So what else Michelle in terms of and of leadership and and 1 of the questions we sometimes ask on the show is ah what. You know if if I asked you for an example of a leader past or present whether you whether you actually knew them or not or you know there was just someone you admired that you were aware of is is there someone that stands out as as influential in um, in your own leadership journey whether you actually worked with him as a mentor or or. You know you just regarded them and and they're who they were and and it helped shape who you were.

33:40.49
Michelle Mandl
I am I am really blessed to be. You know, surrounded by good people I really am you know and I don't actually think in any of the roles that I've held I have not been able to you know, identify mentors that i. Um, that I couldn't go to you know they've always been someone. There's always been someone rather who I've been able to go to through advice or thoughts and to sound board and um I think um, you know plenty of the men I've worked with especially that i. Being my mine manager have been able to guide and and support and and develop my growth as ah as a leader I've I've always felt very trusted and I think that that's something that you know I try to bring into my management and leadership of staff is that trust. No I'm an empowerment and that's really that's a hard thing to learn if you don't feel like you're empowered to make decisions. It really is ah it is quite an intrinsic thing I believe to feel like you're allowed to make decisions and I certainly with my team try to you know, bring that. Trust to the poor I trust you, you're empowered to make the decision. Go do it. You're here because you are the right person to do the job. Um, and because that's how I've been treated as well and in terms of you know fan girl for leaders I love Michelle Obama I think she's the best. So.

35:15.00
Michelle Mandl
Um, I'm constantly shooting some of her you know, notable quotables to my 13 year old daughter look what Michelle Obama saying by the same I believe that that's referred to a spanny a thirteen year old god I do quite enjoy it. It's true.

35:30.35
davidmcdermott
Um, yeah, well that's really really cool and with um the you know the examples you gave of what you do to build Trust what.

35:32.51
Michelle Mandl
I.

35:41.87
davidmcdermott
What what are some of the specific things that have really helped you to generate that environment of trust whether it was things you did or things that were done to you.

35:50.17
Michelle Mandl
And I more so things I've done I I just have a regular open weekly dialogue with key Steve key team members to ensure that you know they have the opportunity to have air time with me because we're all busy. Always. Um, you know I know I'm endorsed and empowered by my organization to operate within my you know within my area of remit and make decisions and and forge ahead. So I'm trusted that way and that's what I've tried to build with my team and try to empower them to do the same. You know, just know that they've got a specific time as well. You know, let's. Anchor up the questions. Let's let's group it all. Let's do it on one day. Let's get together and and um and work it out and then we have our collective team environment as well. So um, you know and then for the broader team because we do have a very large team outside of that we we have you know.

36:37.57
davidmcdermott
Yep.

36:48.21
Michelle Mandl
Through those late particular leaders we have then you know regular regular Catch-ups both individually and and as a group as well. So it's kind of kind of mimicking in in parallel the same type of process except you know when you when you move down into different roles. It's It's a very very process driven task there.

37:06.96
davidmcdermott
Yep.

37:08.60
Michelle Mandl
But it doesn't doesn't stop them from being leaders as well because they're you know they're representing the business and um and delivering on you know, contractual outcomes for for the organisation so they're just as important.

37:19.41
davidmcdermott
Yup, yup and what you say reminds me of um, a story Google at 1 point in their journey invested a lot of money you know at the time kind of the equivalent they were investing in their own. You know. And development of their technologies including the advertising that they were developing and how to understand that which for for those sorts of organizations is is a huge part of their budget and so this this was a pretty highly invested study and their their intention was to find out. What ultimately um is the thing that is the number the number 1 contributor to ah, a successful business in terms of performance and and with all the results you know, analyzing a lot of data conducting a lot of interviews. You know, looking at a lot of. Ah patterns and performance over certain time periods there was there was one indicator that was a cut above the rest and that was when there's a coaching culture in the organisation which is to me what you're talking about with the the regular dialogue like really constructive dialogue.

38:24.32
Michelle Mandl
And.

38:26.37
davidmcdermott
Ah, which means it can be both an external coach coming in usually to work with the more senior leaders but and equally importantly, if not more so the internal coaching culture of leaders knowing and having the skill at least some competency in coaching their team members to to ah to. Ensure they're supported finding out what their frustrations are and you know helping them to clarify what their individual objectives are and helping helping them to stay accountable to that when that culture was even just somewhat present in an organization that was the number 1 thing in terms of how successful an organization. Ah, was and could be so yeah, what? what you say matches what came out of that study that Google conducted some time ago.

39:11.71
Michelle Mandl
And how good it's nice to know that they've they've got more money to do do that sort of thing I would imagine than I would have in my but I.

39:20.65
davidmcdermott
Yes, so we're pretty much at time Michelle um, do you have any any final thoughts to share.

39:32.80
Michelle Mandl
And I think probably you know again reflecting on on leadership. Um, and people because ultimately you know that's what you're your your response that that's a primary responsibility as leaders people. Um I think. Always said to my staff members. You're a person with your own needs and once first and then you're an employee and that's that's my mindset that I take to work every day and I will always reflect on you know in the last decade I had a staff member walking to my office. Um, with her phone crying her eyes out because her son had just won a state athletics tubeship and ah and my first question to her was why are you at work Today. You know this is this is a oneoff this city. He made it to stay. You didn't even tell me he was going to stay.

40:15.45
davidmcdermott
E.EE.

40:23.73
Michelle Mandl
What happened and she said oh because I didn't want to let you and the team down so I came to work today and in in no planet would I have ever said to that staff member. You must go to XYZ school today and deliver x y z program we would have worked it out and you know the importance of acknowledging people individuals.

40:32.67
davidmcdermott
M.

40:43.62
Michelle Mandl
First and foremost and that they have their own needs and once and whatever else going on in their life I think is is of critical importance. You're an employee second always evenly I'm an employee second I'm a person first and and that acknowledgement I think um will always be as benefit.

40:51.40
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah.

41:02.44
Michelle Mandl
More broadly to the culture of an organization and and to support that you you have as a leader. Um and that's that's that's my final two cents I think David you.

41:02.61
davidmcdermott
Totally.

41:11.62
davidmcdermott
It's a great two sense and it's it's a really powerful story and and what you kind of raise is ah you know a next question. Not for today. But for people to think about is how. How can a leader in an organization build a culture where you find out those needs when people aren't necessarily volunteering them themselves and how how can you ensure you really stay in touch regularly with what's really important to your team members so that it doesn't slip through the cracks and people feel motivated and you know, um.

41:37.47
Michelle Mandl
So.

41:41.96
davidmcdermott
Encouraged to to let people know the you know the organization know in this case when they when they do and would like to take it a day off or some time off of something that's number 1 for them at the time. Yeah, really important question and a great story. Thank you? So for.

41:53.42
Michelle Mandl
And no problems.

42:01.58
davidmcdermott
Listeners who want to learn more you know whether it's about Tom Raleen away specifically or you know reach out to you in in some way. What's the best way for them to do that.

42:12.89
Michelle Mandl
I I am ah a Linkedin participant so please by all means happy to connect and speak to anyone on um, Linkedin and similarly Tom Mcleanway has quite a strong Linkedin presence I would welcome. You know any. Any connection through our organizational page there also and.

42:30.53
davidmcdermott
Fantastic. Well thank you so much for your time today. Michelle been really really interesting speaking with you.

42:38.71
Michelle Mandl
I excellent! Thanks so much David appreciate it.