#29 Leadership & The Voice, with Peter Radoll, Deputy Vice Chancellor Indigenous, Equity & Inclusion at Victoria University

With the referendum coming up later in 2023 to vote on altering the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, it was my great pleasure to speak to Professor Peter Radoll recently on the Evolved Leadership Podcast. 

Peter is a proud descendant of the Anaiwan people of northern New South Wales and is the inaugural Deputy Vice Chancellor Indigenous, Equity & Inclusion at Victoria University. He is a leading national advocate for the advancement and inclusion of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander education and research. 

Peter was recently appointed as a Fellow of the Royal Society of NSW. He is currently a Director of The Smith Family Board and the Victorian Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

Some of the highlights of our conversation include losing sleep at having to fire someone, an export we’re not proud of in the form of South African apartheid being modelled on the Australian approach to their indigenous people’s at the time, Peter’s thoughts on The Voice, and the fact that Australia is the only 1st world country on this planet that does not have a treaty with its First Nation’s people. 

If you'd like to learn more about Peter’s work at Victoria University, go to: https://www.vu.edu.au 

You can contact Peter at: peter.radoll@gmail.com  or on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterradoll 

To learn more about what it takes to be an evolved leader, and to check out our other podcast episodes, go to:  https://www.evolvedstrategy.com.au

Chapters

• 15:54 Taking a humanistic approach to dealing with people challenges
• 21:39 Losing sleep at having to fire someone
• 27:19 An export we’re not proud of
• 36:54 Peter’s thoughts on The Voice
• 37:54 Australia is the only 1st world country on this planet that does not have a treaty with its First Nation’s people

Transcript

00:46.49
davidmcdermott
Um, Peter welcome to the show.

00:49.20
Peter Radoll
Thank you David can I just acknowledge our country while we're here in this wonderful year of the referendum voice to parliament so and acknowledge my yeah ah my n 1 people and my family and also acknowledge my um. My german and and scottish heritage as well.

01:09.60
davidmcdermott
Um, thank you Peter I know in speaking to you previously. You have a ah very rich history. But I'd love listeners to also hear that what can you tell us about your leadership journey up to this point.

01:25.57
Peter Radoll
I've had a various various fantastic journey of leadership David over the years I've ah started off as a motor mechanic where I had the great opportunity there in that role to actually. Be the apprentice trainer so lead the prentices so I was a chief ah the chief person who taught the ah the apprentices as they came into the workshop which is absolutely a great privilege. You need a fair bit of patience for for young ones back then I had quite a ah much more patience than I do these days. Um, also had the yeah great pleasure of ah, ah, taking over a a night and would be called a service manager for the night shift we did ah we did ah a night shift for a little while as a madam mechanic as well. So had the great opportunity to actually lead a small team. At that time so that was probably yeah and the start of leadership and then and then had the great opportunity to go to university at the age of 27 years old which seems to be the magic year for all things to happen in people's lives so 27 went off to university. Ah. Became a ah ah public servant for 7 years got to the dizzy heights of executive level one and then went back to university did my masters back into the university sector where I've stayed ever since and of course yeah.

02:58.96
Peter Radoll
Leading yeah, as ah, as ah as a um as an academic I ah had 24 academics so part-time academics tutors if you like working for me as I taught the first year information systems at University Canberra a smaller team while I was at the Australian National University and since then I've had. Um, incredible leadership journey um became the director of the indigenous center at the anu with Graham Nash University from there I went off to become an academic and I led um at the University Canberra again had the opportunity then to come out of academia back into. Leading the nanawar center and then from there went to University Of Newcastle where led the became medinean which is a ah senior leadership role and the director of the wallattuka institute at the yeah. Ah. Um, at the Newcastle University then back to University Canberra became a pro vice chancellor indigenous leadership again. Letter broad strategy in a new ah direction and and just a couple of years ago landed a role at the victoria university ah here in Melbourne where um, where I became the inaugural deputy vice chancellor ah people and organization I will talk about that role in a minute and just last week as of Monday last week. A new role that a new direction.

04:28.65
Peter Radoll
Ah, that the University wants to take is Deputy vice Chancellor indigenous equity and inclusion so it has been ah been an incredible journey to be quite last.

04:40.55
davidmcdermott
Um, well that that is um, a very rich history and I know there are plenty of other roles as well. Having browsed your Linkedin profile and and there's a range of philanthropic organizations that you've been a part of and you know we only have a certain amount of time. Um. Today and and I'd really like to focus on your current role at Victoria University and and the new appointment and what that means in a moment and what ah if you before we get into you know what? you do at the moment Peter as you reflect on those various roles right? from the motor mechanic. Beginnings through to moving into academia and then moving into leadership in Academia and and and range of universities. Yeah was there a leader or 2 that really stood out that influenced you either for the better or for the worse but someone or ah or people that you learned. That you learnt something about leadership from that you never forgot and then took into your own leadership practice.

05:38.65
Peter Radoll
Yeah, but I think there's a few There's been a few people actually. So yeah, my my journey into university was not something I thought I would ever do. So if we go back to that that period of my life I was a very happy motor mechanic living in taree and. Um I was the ah yeah, the treasurer of the gilllawa aboriginal media association at the time and we were running a um that was a side hustle a pro bono um volunteer. Ah um, running a radio program the Kouri hour at ki koori hour on to Bob Fm in taeee. Um, and um, an uncle uncle Ray Hirst and Nanie Pat davisurst 2 wonderful aboriginal elders saw an application form for a cadetship scheme in in canberra and um and they applied for on my behalf would you believe that? but anyway, um so those values of past you know.

06:31.45
davidmcdermott
She.

06:37.70
Peter Radoll
It made a real big difference to me so then that sort of set a tone I guess about what I would think is important so I'll take that perspective is that sometimes people don't know what's best for them and and and people can see qualities in someone that they don't see in themselves. So I think that's something. Ah, that I've it's a value that I've learned or or leadership style I've learned I think rather than answering yeah people who I admire because there's lot of people who admire rather I look at behaviors that I don't like in leaders and ah and I do my best not to do that. Ah, so yelling. Ah um, using profanities and tell you I've seen some really bad behavior in ah in public service particularly the public service wasn't in public service. Um universities. Not so much because they're more inclusive. And of course as a motor mechanic. Um you know? Yeah, go back? Um, yeah when I was in my twenty s I'm in 50 s now so to go back thirty years ago the that environment was really tough. Um in terms of language and and values. It did not. Suit my values set very well at all so rather than admire people of course the me admire people like um yeah like someone like Brian Schmidt who became a ah colleague. Um, while I was at the Australian National University well before he became the vice chancellor. Um.

07:51.96
davidmcdermott
Um.

08:08.95
Peter Radoll
Yeah, um, yeah, Tom Kama um someone who I absolutely admire and have done for a very long time. He is a really values based gentle principled person. Um, and I absolutely love his leadership and I try to emulate. Ah, the support and and um the um I suppose he's empathy and understanding and he's just in his gentleness I don't always get that right? and I don't think you could replace people like like Tom Karma but those are sort of people who I really admire and of course you look at the international leaders like Mandela. Desmond Tutu others yeah barrack Obama like I had the great opportunity in Melbourne here a few months back to go listen to Barack Obama it was only my partner myself and about 11000 of our closest friends in the auditorium vera.

09:00.48
davidmcdermott
See.

09:05.88
Peter Radoll
And it's just inspirational to be there. Let's listen into Barack Obama with a yeah, very short distance away you know something I really admire now. Yeah, so there's lots of elements of people's you take bits of people I suppose that ah that you're trying to emulate that part of of your value set because that's what you this? Yeah, this. what you find well that's what I found valuable. You know those elements or aspects of what they do in terms of leadership that I wanted to emulate and I do my best to do that. Don't always get it right by the way because yeah, we are we are? um we are um. Ah, suppose we are created by the way we actually are bought up. So yeah, we don't have all yeah wasn't childhood I guess I suppose and ah and in that yeah, there's some. Ah, there's some baggage if you like David.

09:44.72
davidmcdermott
In.

09:57.19
davidmcdermott
Absolutely and you know you and you have gravitated to a role of of senior leadership in various various roles and and ah more recently as as you said deputy vice chancellor of. People an organization for Victoria University and then very recently an appointment ah into the same and the same level of role but indigenous equity and inclusion. So can you tell us a bit about. The people and organization role First that you filled up until this very recent appointment and then we'll get onto what the recent appointment is about as well.

10:35.45
Peter Radoll
Yeah, for sure like the people and organization was an experiment to bring all this all the people into one portfolio so in that role responsible for all of hr including payroll students, student services, student administration. Ah, responsible for libraries technical services inclusion and belonging and then um of course vu sport as well. So in that team I had 6 direct reports and about 800 ah, full time ongoing staff with the probably equivalent of that about 300 part time as as well. So you know I was responsible for the 3000 staff if you like and and the forty odd thousand across our university so it was ah it was a huge role. Um.

11:24.90
davidmcdermott
E.

11:32.30
Peter Radoll
Great privilege to serve in that role and of course you know? yeah bringing those values and trying to bring ah an empathetic value set leadership set to ah that Portfolio. What's a little tricky to be quite honest because sometimes you need a. Bit of more pragmatic leadership when it comes to things like payroll and and the and then in the business side of the sort of the economic side of things like V sports economic arm and yeah, there were bits and pieces of that portfolio that I. Yeah, really struggled to get my leadership wrapped around it. But there's other bits that were a natural fit so it was exciting a very exciting role.

12:20.46
davidmcdermott
Um, and that yeah, that's ah, a huge remit and and people at organization I mean in a corporate function. It is what used to be ah Hr and you know the name sort of shifted to people and then sometimes evolves into. Um, learning. You know you get the chief learning offices of you know the large global multinationals and the latest one which pops up which sometimes is an evolution Sometimes it's a separate function is the Chief purpose officer but you you were very much in in that space of you know what's what's now.

12:38.45
Peter Radoll
That.

12:54.70
davidmcdermott
Um, usually people or or and or learning and the very first function. You mentioned there amongst all the others was ah Hr which you know is really about the the experience of people in the organization and and as as an organization grows larger.

13:07.23
Peter Radoll
Um, yeah.

13:11.83
davidmcdermott
And universities are certainly in the category of a large organization. You know there are a lot of people challenges to deal with because there are a lot of people. So how did you go about? ah you know at the level you were at um in the people and.

13:21.26
Peter Radoll
Um, are stuck.

13:26.73
davidmcdermott
Organization role of of managing the people challenges that would have come your way and of course across the desks of your direct reports etc. What what was effective in terms of how you responded to the the inevitable ongoing people challenges that you would have faced.

13:36.40
Peter Radoll
Um, yeah, with.

13:41.59
Peter Radoll
And yeah, look it's that's a really good question davidve. One of the things that I tried to do is try to bring a ah more humanistic sort of perspective into the leadership space particularly. And yeah I know that from a.

13:44.92
davidmcdermott
3

13:59.90
Peter Radoll
Yeah people and culture side of things. You know it can be quite difficult and challenging because there's a lot of technical aspects to enough relations that to be quite honest I've got not the foggiest about when I first started the role I much more up to date now. Um.

14:10.60
davidmcdermott
A.

14:17.13
Peter Radoll
And it's very technical so industrial relations can be really tricky so there were times where I had to put my empathetic self aside and then go through um, what was considered a process. Ah, not that it didn't have an impact on me to be quite honest. In terms of you know because like I couldn't use that skillset all the time to achieve an outcome and you know yeah universities are not dissimilar to other organizations where yeah, fair work is ah is involved with some of the processes. Yeah magistrates courts. Um, um. Ah, discrimination movements those sort of things because in an organization where there's 40000 students in 3000 staff. Um, and I was dealing with both the student and staff side of things. Yeah, you can't always bring a very empathetic side. You can sort of you can understand that. But then you've got to go through.

15:07.75
davidmcdermott
E.

15:11.88
Peter Radoll
Ah, very technical process sometimes and you know, um, but that doesn't stop you from actually bringing yourself your values and your principles to the table and say okay this is how we think we interpret it the moment this is how we interpret it in the past? Yeah, but now I'm a different leader a different style.

15:22.97
davidmcdermott
In.

15:30.77
Peter Radoll
Ah, can we do something different. so yeah in some of the so I share with you David some of the really difficult times with staff um rather than actually going through the technical process I would sit that aside sometimes with some good advice by the way it wasn't yeah it wasn't flying. Ah. Ah, by the yeah, my um, ah solo I would had some really good advice so I would actually go and meet with people at cafes or environments where they were happy to meet and have a conversation about how we can progress a complaint or an idea and the idea of that was. Yeah, from my perspective I think probably yeah, you could think about it as yeah, are we sort of holding off a fair work issue or something on that. But I didn't see it that way I was saying yeah how can I help this person overcome their challenge and it and it may be in some instances. It was um yeah can I actually get this. This person's not happy working at institution rather than them leaving can I actually help them get another job in the institution or can I find another role external from the institution that will help them actually with their career progression and that's the values that I've able so it was very.

16:35.82
davidmcdermott
Me.

16:42.51
Peter Radoll
I'll tell you anyone that works in the human resource or the Ir ah space. It can be very ah, very difficult but not everybody not everybody. Um not everyone's cup of tea I know to be quite honest at many times I found it very very challenging to deal with.

16:48.78
davidmcdermott
A minute.

17:00.65
davidmcdermott
Yes, and I don't think I've ever met anyone like certainly I mean dealing with a difficult issue is one when there's you know performance concern or a conflict and that's sort of 1 side of things but when it comes to the point of someone you know, clearly needing to be let go or just you to.

17:00.72
Peter Radoll
Ah, very difficult issues.

17:19.76
davidmcdermott
Budget Cuts et Cetera you know someone needs to inform and and manage that process I've never met any a leader that actually enjoys that process. Um, but what I've what I've what I've learned is that there's certainly a way to do it with grace and and as supportively as possible and help the other person you know the person who's.

17:29.10
Peter Radoll
Um, with this.

17:38.30
davidmcdermott
And but being moved on or or needing to go due to performance or you know for all sorts of reasons helping them to um to do so in a way that ah you know there's ah, an elegance to it and so that people can leave without a bad taste in their mouth and actually with it. Ah, memory of being supported to to move on to something that um is either suitable or or ideally a better fit in the case of performance I did a client of mine. You know, um, anonymously and shared with me.

18:06.70
Peter Radoll
Um, and it's not 5

18:14.36
davidmcdermott
A while ago she had had a role overseas ah in an organization that she was a leader with of having about 15000 ah staff under her ah under her leadership and and of course cascaded direct reports and their reports etc. And. And she'd had to make decisions many times that sometimes involved hundreds of people if not more you know being let go at 1 time and and she shared with me that she had difficulty sleeping at night. Ah, occasionally you know that the the memories would come to her and she'd feel guilt at um, at a.

18:41.22
Peter Radoll
Are you.

18:50.17
davidmcdermott
You know the feeling of having been um in a core leadership position that like that led to that outcome and that was part of her path was to resolve that and you know make peace with she was in a role at the time and um and understand what what was out of her hands and what what she could influence so it is It is a very heavy area and ah. There's no magic bullet. But what I what I found is.. There's certainly systems and structures to follow in the space of hiring and and indeed firing that um, that lead to the best outcomes possible in the circumstances.

19:24.56
Peter Radoll
I agree David I agree and you have to say when I was much more junior I thought when someone yeah made the decision that someone had to go I thought it'd be very easy for them until I had to do it myself and you know I'd lost. Yeah I always lose sleep. Ah, when decisions like when when it's when someone else is feeling pain and so it's like it's almost transferred right? and I know that sounds really um, really arrogant I'm not sure the arrogance the word but you know because you're you're the one that's got to yeah, you're going to give the message. And then then they've got to take the message and you're not sure how it's going to respond but but nobody nobody likes to let anybody go not even 1 person. Let alone a number of people and you do and I know that I don't sleep well for weeks before I have to make a decision. And then once I made the decision I still don't sleep and it's not until ah yes, yeah, you got to go through I go through a little bit of a process of um, yeah, resetting like to actually get to the point where I can actually yeah resettle again, but it it does put you off your game having to make really tough decisions.

20:22.98
davidmcdermott
E.

20:33.29
davidmcdermott
Indeed and of of course ah where possible the the focus needs to be on the hiring process so that you're actually um, being very selective and attracting really top quality candidates where it's It's far less likely that they'll. There'll be a pattern of of letting people go and it's It's a place where people stay where you want them to stay. They want to stay and and the organization keeps growing. But um, the University environment is ah is a little different to your your standard corporate environment.

21:07.85
Peter Radoll
Yeah, so we've had yeah and I I get that ah more and more because we've brought some wonderful corporate people into particularly our university and they go they go. It's a little bit different in in the university environment and look and I think it has to be David because you know.

21:13.33
davidmcdermott
It may.

21:25.79
Peter Radoll
Universities are um, we meant to be enlightened. We meant to be research focused educated and you know what we have to be the most inclusive organizations. So and so and when we say that we have to take in consideration. There's a whole raft of different ah neurodiversity there's a whole raft of disabilities I mean if we if universities cannot be the inclusive institutions the enlightened inclusive institutions and I'm not saying left wing or right wing I'm just saying inclusive like full stop all of us. Um, where else can they be on the on the planet. You know this is where it's where universities play a very unique role now. We do know that universities particularly staff attract a lot of neurodiversity in terms of stuff. We know that and i've. We know that across all the university sector. Um, but particularly interesting at the moment where we're just yeah, looking at our University Victoria University has a a block model of of learning so instead of students learning four subjects over a twelve week period um we they learn the 4 subjects over 4 lots of four weeks so every 4 weeks we have what we call a block. It's quite intensive. Um, but what we're finding is because of the model we're attracting a lot of students with neurodiversity as well. So.

22:57.87
Peter Radoll
Just say it's got to you mean those environments have to be inclusive now because of all the neurodiversity. Yeah's yeah, there's not always harmony in that space with a lot of Neurodiversity. So and that requires a lot of support and managing. Ah, to to to be to be successful and yeah, yeah, corporate is not quite the same having Ah really really close friends and corporate and also people dear friends with startup companies with 3 or 400 staff. Um, they're hiring firing practices. Ah yeah. Very very quick. They have to they may have to be for for other reasons. But yeah, you can't in a university where we are much more.. There's ah, there's a longer process for the adjustment period or or to let someone go.. It's not.. It's not a overnight thing can be in Business. So.

23:50.60
davidmcdermott
Um, yup, it exactly. So now you're using this term neurodiversity just for listeners. Can you define you know what? you mean when you use that term.

23:53.93
Peter Radoll
And there's good reasons for that.

24:04.73
Peter Radoll
Ah, yeah, for sure. so yeah so anyone yeah so who's neurotypical. We're not sure. It's a very good question. Are we all neurodiverse. So when I say that I'm talking about ah you know autism um, Asperger's ah ad Hd.

24:09.32
davidmcdermott
2

24:17.55
davidmcdermott
Um.

24:22.30
Peter Radoll
Um, where where there's a diagnosis if you like or an identified learning challenge I won't say disability because what we're learning with the block model is not a disability is actually a challenge and if you get the model right? You eliminate the challenge. So so yeah, the neurodiversity is just that those sort of.

24:26.68
davidmcdermott
Are.

24:41.57
Peter Radoll
Yeah, that mix or bag of and don't forget yeah autisms the spectrum. So it's not you got right? right? this way and right that way. So um, yeah, neurodiverse So people who are not ah, not would be what my colleagues would say Nonneuro um.

24:48.19
davidmcdermott
E.

24:59.63
Peter Radoll
Typical.

25:00.71
davidmcdermott
Yeah, okay I'm aware of time Peter and I would really like just to leave a good amount of time to talk about your most recent appointment in the in the indigenous space. So can you tell us you know what? what is this role? Um, ah. What's and what's the vision for it and and any you know particular aspects in terms of leadership that you can share regarding this new role and and where where you see it going.

25:28.16
Peter Radoll
Yeah, for sure. Thank you? Yeah look this is a really really exciting opportunity and and I've got a real incredible number of messages both internally in the institution and externally as well praising. Ah, the vice chancellor for his leadership in creating a role particularly in this year of the voice in the Referendum ah later on the year so my vision is really to create a more inclusive institution. We are known Victoria University is known as one of the most inclusive. Institutions western Melbourne of course is the most multicultural part of Australia and the suburb not very far from us as a point cook is known by the abs as the most multicultural suburb in the in the whole country so where we are smack bang in the heart of a really sweet spot of yeah building. Yeah, um, cultural diversity in the west west of Melbourne and particularly at v you so my vision is to create we want to create the most inclusive institution. So that's my team and I ah well and truly are now on a pathway to doing that we yeah so that the the inclusion and diversity. Sorry inclusion and belonging team um reported to me in my previous role in people among organizations that were just continuing that on and with ah a bit more time in my hands now we can actually drive a much stronger agenda. We actually have a partnership with an organization called our watch.

27:01.67
Peter Radoll
Um, that's a bespoke privateship. No other University partner with our watch and our watch is around addressing gender-based violence we know that every every um you know, um too often. Um, you know males usually males. Ah yeah, um.

27:21.31
Peter Radoll
Ah, murder or injure the significant other too regularly. So we're going to so we come together our watch and Victoria University have come together to actually create a unique partnership around addressing gender-based violence and it's difficult to talk about but we need to address it and again. See this in the meter all the time we've made. Ah, we've made a contribution and and a commitment to addressing this in terms of the aboriginal and torres stra under side. The indigenous side we have the aboriginal history archive at Victoria University where the Gary Foley archive is if I don't know.

27:40.99
davidmcdermott
Um.

27:45.14
davidmcdermott
Yep.

27:57.41
davidmcdermott
I Know that name.

27:58.50
Peter Radoll
If you know Gary Foley 1 of the most foremost imminent. Yes, he was one of the one of the yeah, um, one of the yeah founders of the yeah 10 bsy 9 74 he also yeah went to China a long time ago back and when the aboriginal missions and reserves were still around. Ah, to complain to the chinese about the human rights the that the government was putting of course. Um and then those who don't know. Ah, um, yeah, the apartheid regime in ah in South Africa was modeled off the. Ah, the policy here in Australia around aboriginal reserves and missions. So it's one of our not proud of um so all that information we kept in the aboriginal archive here and so and we we got a great number of indigenous staff. A great aboriginal academic. So what I want to do is enhance that.

28:39.69
davidmcdermott
Um, yes.

28:54.98
Peter Radoll
Yeah, create a bigger focus, a bigger vision and and then try try my hardest to actually increase our student cohort. Yeah create more ph ds more academics and so we can actually develop leadership. That's my sweet spot David if I can if I can help people like I've been. Afforded the great pleasure and opportunity if I can if I can influence someone to become a leader or and yeah, open the open up the opportunities for them to actually have a pathway to leadership and then that would be my happy place and that's that's exactly what i. There.

29:35.31
davidmcdermott
Yeah, really inspiring and and all the best with with the work. It's um, it's such a ah really beautiful space to work in and it's great that you've got you know now more time on your hands to focus strategically and and really. Um, as you say you know ah be be much more um, clear and and and focus specifically around the indigenous students aspect of the University and and I'm guessing it. It covers staff as well is that.

30:04.38
Peter Radoll
Yeah, yeah, so that yeah yep, so staff and students. We don't have enough staff or aboriginal staff or aboriginal students. So um, yeah, we have a great. We have great group of staff at the University who are super dedicated teaching multiple degrees.

30:05.55
davidmcdermott
Part of the the remit.

30:23.99
Peter Radoll
Ah, but we're going to grow that. Um, we're going to do our best to grow that and of course Victoria is quite a unique institution that's already new position. Yeah 25% of the universities sit in Victoria yet. The aboriginal population is only 1% so it's really a interesting ah ah position.

30:28.52
davidmcdermott
In.

30:37.70
davidmcdermott
And.

30:43.27
Peter Radoll
Ah, Victoria's in and of course don't forget Victoria um, as a state also has had the very first treaty legislation in the country back in 2018 so they're well and truly on the path to a treaty process and I'm hoping yeah I'm hoping that we as an institution can play a role.

31:01.82
davidmcdermott
M.

31:02.40
Peter Radoll
Ah, in that treaty process to develop yeah develop lead develop you know, develop those people and their skills. Ah that required to actually maintain a a treaty process. So we're hoping to do that.

31:12.80
davidmcdermott
Yes, and this conversation is naturally moving into ah and beyond the university you know, touching on some of the really big issues in the indigenous space moving in Australia today of the voice. The referendum. Coming later later this year etc and you know when you and I were chatting and previously Peter I I mentioned some of my um experiences and involvement with indigenous peoples in in various endeavors and roles that I've had starting with Lucal leadership Australia being the founder there and we. And we had um, we ran leadership development programs for young people. But we also did a lot of community work and and we had a focus on ah supporting indigenous communities and we we met with chairs of ah aboriginal land councils and and did community work in in various areas. I personally you know when I lived up north a bit from Sydney at the time and met with the chair of the port macquarie Aboriginal Land Council who at the time was Jack Beeson and you know this is when I was about 20 years old this is twenty years ago and um and I was I was just really amazed and and. Impressed by the quality of this guy he he was actually a united nations unsung hero award winner for his work with indigenous peoples primarily with youth and ah he had ah a large property that he and the young people who were homeless and indigenous young people.

32:39.85
davidmcdermott
Drug addicted and wanting to rehabilitate alcohol addictedt etc would come and he would work with them. You know, very much very much in-per and and ah with young people specifically to improve their lives to give them a male role model and you know have other mentors that came and and supported that work and. He told me that when des archbishop Desmond Tutu came to Australia he was actually selected to be um, the the guide to guide 2 2 around Australia and they went all around and you know visited various places and 1 story. He told me I'll never forget. He said when they were out you know in the and. I'm not sure if it was the northern territory or northw a but they were visiting some of the remote communities where things that were and as I understand still are pretty pretty shocking in terms of quality of life of indigenous peoples there and the archbishop tutu fell on the ground and got on his knees and wept and said.

33:36.92
davidmcdermott
Ah, what he observed there was actually worse than what he'd seen in in apartheid South Africa and um I you know I know you just talked about one of Australia's not so positive exports being you know the reserve model and that's what ah apartheid was founded on. Just reminded me of that story as well as um, many other experiences I've had throughout throughout my time but rather rather than go into further experiences you know which I have and ah and and I have a ah deep love for the aboriginal culture and spirituality. You know which I shared with you? What? what are your views on you know what.

33:56.70
Peter Radoll
Oh Apple.

34:14.11
davidmcdermott
Has built up to now you know being termed the voice and and the upcoming Referendum and as someone in a very significant leadership role now in in the indigenous space. You know what? what are your thoughts to share with listeners on what's happening here and and what's likely ah in the future.

34:22.86
Peter Radoll
That.

34:30.82
Peter Radoll
yeah sure yeah David it's interesting I've um yeah I'm actually really pro the voice I think it's a it's a great opportunity for us to embrace. Ah you know change recognition.

34:42.24
davidmcdermott
I.

34:47.91
Peter Radoll
Look and we have to remember so one of the things that i. Ah yeah, explain to people is that there's always been a movement towards recognition in the constitution. You know I think the first petition was yeah early 1940 s to the to the queen or the ah the king the queen and there's been. Successive petitions if you go to parliament house in Canberra. You'll see the bark petition. Yeah for constitution recognition and that was yeah, really the early days. Um there's been. Ah, yeah, there's been successive attempts to put aboriginal tourists on the recognition into the constitution. And of course ninety ninety when we had the the mabo decision in the high court where where it took a long time to overturn the doctrine of terran nullius meaning that Australia was empty before ah colonialism and I think it's important to remember so this one of the things that. Ah, um, when I was I was having some conversations at a dinner just the other night here in Melbourne and I said you have to remember that Australia is the first and only country in the first so Australia is the only first world country on this planet that has not. Got a treaty with its first nations people every other country does even Zimbabwe's got a treaty with its first nations people. It's just this is a unique institutional. Um, um, grab if you like so so at the united nations level Australia is known.

36:22.46
Peter Radoll
As your most most unique land grab in the world and that's you know, yeah, being provocative in using in those words. But yeah, you know cook when he came was meant to have a treaty and for some reason we still don't know the the impetus why but he did not do it.

36:25.50
davidmcdermott
E.

36:40.71
Peter Radoll
And and it and we've lived the legacy ever since um in terms of the voice I think voice is going to be really good in terms of closing the gap around Health and education. Ah, my gut feeling is that if it doesn't get up through a Referendum I'm confident they'll legislate it. But you know what.

36:41.78
davidmcdermott
And.

36:57.26
Peter Radoll
The downside of the legislation is that can be changed government to government. So I'm really hoping that we get ah recognition in the constitution and then there's a mechanism to go forward if I share with you Dave with the victorian context you know in 17 and I was really lucky. To be part of the uluru dialogues in the act the nanowoo elders asked me to come along to that to the dialogue was the thirteenth dialogue it was in the act. Um, they the nana wo elders asked me to go to uluru on their behalf. And ah being the values-based and principle person I am I'm not nu of all I'm enow anyone and I just said to the nunnowa elders I really can't go you really need to send someone someone from your community to go even though they valued me and trust me. Um, they yeah I just could not go. Um, so I've been involved in that process with the uluru dialogues with Uluru statement came back and ah, really embraced that as Victoria University has as well by the way and lots of organizations have um, embraced the the uluru. Ah, statement in this whole. So not just the voice but the voice treaty and truth process um in 2018 and when when the federal government knocked it back in 17 and said they didn't consider it 2018 the victorian government said we'll go it alone and they've gone through a process.

38:26.70
Peter Radoll
They've had the voice they're going through. Ah the yurook the truthtelling process which is a ah royal commission at the moment into the treatment of aboriginal people in Victoria that's continuing on and then I do note that this year in the state government budget. They've allocated 135000000 for a treaty. So so something is afoot and they will ah will they're they are progressing down the treaty process. So I can see yeah my I can see that kind of happening at the federal level I don't think it will. Ah, because I think it'd be too difficult at the federal level to have treaties I think the the states and territories would would have a would would be providing the treaties but David something that listeners might not know about is that ah in western australia the you know the southeast of western sorry the southwest of western Australia. Um. Yeah, the noongar community actually was given a recognized native title over all of Perth and all of south ah west of western Australia and um, and of course ah the state government has entered into an agreement one point three billion dollars if I remember correctly. Ah, to a trust in a community organisation and ah and a body corporate that will actually um, give scholarships an empowerment to aboriginal people on that over over that part of the world anywhere else in the world that would be called a treaty in Australia is called an agreement.

39:59.84
davidmcdermott
Who.

40:01.80
Peter Radoll
So so we've already had something like ah, a treaty already here in western Australia yeah, the world hadn't the world hasn't died the world didn't stop and perth didn't cut roll to grind to a halt. Um, one point three billions a lot of money. Ah, but you know what. That's what treaties are all about Yeah yeah, yeah, a process of um, yeah land versus value versus heritage versus um yeah, priorities Perth did not stop trading and nothing happened. It's just that the community solved settled and and done. Not a perfect solution by the way because yeah, who's in the tent who's out of the tent is still tricky and to be quite honest, um, I'm hearing the same thing here in Victoria in terms of the treaty process as well. So not perfect. But yeah I've had the great privilege of traveling internationally into. Alterroa New Zealand and and of course Canada as well and looked at their treaty processes. They're not a panacea either. But at least they have a process and that's and that's what we're looking for in terms of our voice a process where we can have an input input into policy and it's it's ah, quite a. Yeah, it's ah, quite a toothless tiger really, it's not you don't get veto rights. The voice is not a veto. so so but I so I'm really excited by the opportunity to be able to yeah contribute because I know from myself David in terms of a very small part of my world in terms of Victoria University where I can.

41:34.92
Peter Radoll
Input into a policy or process not just an aboriginal side of things but in terms of inclusion and belonging and the other aspects of my portfolio. How important Having't those expertise talking about a particular issue or a particular area. Um, and how much better the outcome is for students. All for staff Once you have those expertise in so it's a no brainer. Um I Think the downside is that it's really easy to so doubt. Ah so doubt in people's minds. Yeah, because yeah because if you want to know what's going on, you got to go off and do something to be Informed. It's much easier to say. Ah, just to Sow Doubt. Um, and then then for people to go out and form themselves. So.

42:19.15
davidmcdermott
Well thank you so much for your and your viewpoint Peter and and it was really really interesting I certainly have a lot to learn about treaties and and exactly what they are and and um you you explained really? well you know the the fundamentals. And how how remarkable that James Cook didn't for whatever reason even though he was apparently supposed to sign a treaty at the very beginning and that in itself. But then that that just carried on you know and and unaddressed. Um.

42:45.80
Peter Radoll
Um.

42:54.40
davidmcdermott
And that and that that legacy still remains from ah from whether it was his decision at the time or ah something he was asked to do It's absolutely extraordinary. How one you know one person's decision or a small group can influence such a massive number of people for. For hundreds of years and and more extraordinary.

43:15.67
Peter Radoll
So yeah, we we all, we all live with that legacy and the the disappointment at what it could have been.

43:23.56
davidmcdermott
Well I'll be I'll be watching your journey closely in your new role Peter and and I wish you all the best and you know it certainly comes at a very propitious time with with the voice and the referendum this year. So Thank you so much for the and the experience you've shared and your insights I really appreciate your time.

43:51.36
Peter Radoll
David you in and thank you to all the wonderful listeners too. Thank you.

43:56.67
davidmcdermott
If people do want to learn a bit more about you and and your work and or Victoria University or any of the projects you're involved with Peter where would you direct them and and what's the best way for them to to reach out or learn.

44:10.75
Peter Radoll
Yeah, it's very exciting I look yeah we can um, look if anyone wants to know what we're doing what I'm doing or what the university is doing please email I'm very happy to email me if I could probably yeah my emails. Quite public as just Peter Dot Riol at v.edudot a you ah v you mean Victoria University so you're more than welcome to email I do receive a few emails externally asking me for opportunities and and and sharing knowledge. My team is absolutely incredible. And my previous teams still very connected to them as well. Amazing, wonderful leaders under me because that's one of the things I didn't talk about yeah to be a successful leader. You got to have wonderful people and around you right? So yeah and I do that I'm really really lucky? Yeah, so if you want to look.

44:58.77
davidmcdermott
In.

45:05.72
Peter Radoll
You know, of course you can check out. Um Linkedin as well. You can contact me through Linkedin that seems to be the um, the the platform of choice in terms of kind of connections these days and I'm really happy to have conversations as well.

45:20.10
davidmcdermott
So we'll put those details in the show notes Peter. Thank you once again.

45:27.44
Peter Radoll
Thank you David appreciate that. Thanks for the talk.