The Evolved Leadership Podcast

#39 Why Execution Beats Strategy Every Time, with Tom Larter, CEO of WithYouWithMe

• David McDermott

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My guest in this episode is Tom Larter. Tom  is a seasoned business executive and the CEO of WithYouWithMe, one of the Asia Pacific’s fastest growing tech companies.

 

WithYouWithMe solves workforce challenges and make a positive social impact through

creating career pathways for diverse communities, including veterans, military families,

neurodivergent individuals and indigenous groups. 

 

Tom is also an active member of several industry organisations, including the Tech Council of Australia, TechUK and the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business (CCAB). 

 

Highlights of our conversation include your ability to learn being the best predictor of your hire-ability, future-proofing jobs for the future, how execution beats strategy every day of the week, the importance of Involving your leaders in your strategic planning, and making sure your strategy fits on one page. 

 

Enjoy the conversation 

 

To find out more about WithYouWithMe go to: https://withyouwithme.com

 

You can connect with Tom on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomlarter/ 

 

To learn more about what it takes to be an evolved leader, and to check out our other podcast episodes, go to:  https://www.evolvedstrategy.com.au

00:39.47
davidmcdermott
I.

01:03.53
davidmcdermott
Hi guys. My guest today is Tom Latter Tom is the Ceo of with you with me. He's a seasoned business executive with a passion for driving technological innovation and social impact across global markets. He's a former captain in the australian army where he had a distinguished 13 year military career including serving in Afghanistan in 2017 Tom transitioned to the private sector and became one of the early leaders with you with me with you with me is one of the Asia-pacifics fastest growing. Tech companies with you with me solves workforce challenges and it makes a positive social impact by creating career pathways for diverse communities and that includes veterans military families, neurodivergent individuals and indigenous groups. Tong works closely with leadership employees and investors to embed innovation and deliver value to with you with me's global customer base and 80000 platform users in addition to his role with you with me Tom is an active member of several industry organisations including the tech council of Australia. Tech uk and Canadian council for aboriginal business tom welcome to the show.

02:21.61
Tom
Thanks David real pleasure to be here and looking forward to it.

02:26.14
davidmcdermott
Tell us about your leadership journey so far.

02:34.57
Tom
Ah, casting my mind back I think my leadership journey probably started in school. You know, captaining sports teams and volunteering and and learning from positive role models. Um, that evolved pretty quickly into the military I went from straight from school into the military and so. A young officer in the army. Um, huge responsibility operational deployments to Afghanistan and the like kind of shapes a particular leadership style if you will or or requirement and then and then that transitioned into the corporate sector in leading teams now and trying to you know learning how to be. A senior executive of a fast-growing tech startup.

03:18.30
davidmcdermott
Now on the show. You know, anything's up for conversation and if if it's um, if it's not something that you know you'd prefer to go into now Totally fine, but people are most people don't have a military experience and it is often intriguing when um. When people encounter someone who has gone and done active Service. You know in the military. Um, you know what? what can you share here in our conversation about what your experience was and and what was the impact and you know what did you come away with both the highs and the lows of of your military career.

03:56.58
Tom
Um, some insights that might be interesting. There's probably a bit of a perception in in the civilian population of what the leadership style is in the military and that's maybe shaped by um hollywood or popular culture and you would think that it's quite autocratic. You know lots of shouting and carrying on. Um, but but in reality even at the most stressful circumstances if I cast my mind back to times in Afghanistan you know whether it's in combat or dealing with grave danger as a leader I'm I'm pretty quiet because. You know your team should be trusted to be able to go and do the things that they've trained for and you need to give them the space to do that. So I find in the military you spend more time um, inspiring and fulfilling a transformational leadership style than maybe what a lot of people think um. And I've had that conversation many a time so I do think the traits of sort of humility and trust are quite important as a military leader. Um, and then the military teaches you to be ah, quite diligent around high standards and and it really helps you understand the grave consequences of being complacent. Around those standards and to be honest I think that translates in a number of ways to the corporate sector so yeah so I think that's probably the first insight the second insight is I have found that leadership in the military. Maybe surprisingly so is less complicated than leadership.

05:27.67
Tom
In the corporate sector you might find yourself in more dangerous circumstances in the military. Um, but the military has other things that a lot of organizations don't necessarily have it has a steep culture. It has real clarity around what people's roles are and the mission and and structures around how to make that really Clear. It's really embedded and that makes leadership a little bit easier and typically you find people are there for the similar reason their motivation is somewhat similar whereas in the corporate World. You've got all sorts of motivations people who just want to earn money people who care deeply about the business people who want to look after their families. And so as a leader you've got to be more diverse out here than I think potentially you needed to be at times in the military and not everybody would think that.

06:14.81
davidmcdermott
Really interesting and and a really interesting insight in terms of leadership in the military being simpler. Not necessarily simple but simpler than leadership in the corporate world and yes leadership in the corporate world is ah is a behemoth of complexity or it can be. And of course your approach and that you know your understanding of leadership styles and frameworks and how you how you turn up as a leader makes a huge difference on um, your experience of of leadership and how that impacts those that you lead and ah, you know there are tried and true frameworks that make things. You know a lot more a lot smoother and and and have greater impact and um with a scattered approach often. 1 of the challenges of corporate leadership is the technician rises up the ladder into really forced into leadership but leadership. They didn't want or ask for. And they find themselves being asked to lead people with no and background in that and and that's one of the most common challenges and of course they either get training or they get out. Um and that raises another question of nature versus nurture those who are. More born with natural leadership qualities versus those who are not but we might ah we may or may not get into that one at some point let's see how the the conversation goes but coming back to um so after the military did you move straight into with you with me.

07:31.22
Tom
Um.

07:41.80
Tom
More or less. Um I was attracted to I've kind of stumbled across the business and the founder. Um and his purpose admission to help military veterans transition into meaningful digital careers and that kind of spoke to me I done a lot of work in the military in the recruiting space. And I enjoyed trying to solve those problems of how do you motivate encourage people to want to serve in the military and then how do you give them hope that there's a life after service. That's really meaningful and so I stumbled across this this young startup called with you with me. And I met the founder and we shared a lot of history. He served in the military as well in a similar career path to mine. Um, and so six months I transitioned from the military I came across the business. It was about 3 or 4 employees at the time in early seventeen day after Anzac Day Twenty seventeen was my first day in the business. Um. And and we started to grow the business and solve the problem at the time of helping military veterans through a free program transition into digital technology roles.

08:43.42
davidmcdermott
So Tell us more about ah firstly, what does with you with me actually do because it is ah quite a unique space that with you with me plays in and ah and I was really interested. Um in in the business model and and the niche that you're you're playing in and the success that you've had. So Can you first just for listeners the benefit of listeners just explain a bit more about exactly what is it that with you with me does like who are the the people that interacts with and serves because I know it does go Beyond Veterans Now if I understand right?? Um, and and then.

09:13.96
Tom
Um, that's right.

09:16.83
davidmcdermott
The journey since 2017 you know what have been the milestones along that journey and and where are you at now as a business.

09:26.35
Tom
So um, with you with me is a social impact Hr Tech company. Our mission is to solve underemployment by showing people that are in underrepresented talent pools and we've spoken about some of those. Show them how they can unlock their potential and obtain meaningful work and we also show organizations how they can access greater potential from their existing workforce to overcome the skills Crisis. So Our our values have always ah think big fix it and have heart. And that's how we try to solve these problems in industry and so the way that we do that is you will find in industry that most organizations will value you as an individual based on your resume or your past experience the jobs that you've had and use that as a predictor. Suggest What you might be a good fit for in the future and we didn't like that we didn't think that your job is the best articulation of your ability. So the approach that our company has taken is cognitive aptitude and personality match to skills Frameworks. To demonstrate to you What you could be capable of um and to show organizations your ability to learn in the future as a better predictor of your fit Now. That's been really interesting because we know skills are moving really fast. It's hard to find people with X number of years of experience in certain skill categories and there's a big drive for diversity of.

10:55.58
Tom
Of both of both demographic and thinking. Um and so this is why over the last six years we've continued to run a free program for all sorts of underrepresented groups refugees veterans their families. Anyone who didn't really fit the mold of a traditional recruitment model. Um, and take them from non-technical rapidly upscaling them into digital roles to help fill a skills gap and in doing so we prove to organizations that there's a different way to think about people and how to value their fit for roles in the future and that's the har tech bit. So we have a great software platform called potential that companies buy as part of their talent or hate charge strategy and implement that to get more out of their workforce.

11:43.30
davidmcdermott
Right? So That's that's the business model and it and it started with Veterans specifically but it evolved to other um other groups that it sounds like the need that you're meeting is those that may be judged as. Not so hirable due to certain reasons and you shifting that perception to saying well hang on. Actually there there are huge is a huge underutilized pool here. Not just with veterans but but other other groups that are actually extremely hiable and you know here's the results that show how how useful they'd be to. Whichever Organization is a good fit and you've got you know some software some strong software and and metrics around ah matching the right people with with ah the right organization is that kind of the a fair summary of things.

12:33.48
Tom
Yeah that's that's right? Yeah, so the company started in in sort of 2016 2017 with a really explicit purpose on helping the veteran community and and in the early months of doing so we realized quickly that. This wasn't a veteran problem although they are affected maybe more heavily because of the circumstances they've come from. This was a problem being faced by all sorts of people who are job hunting and career shifting and and career moving in industry. Um, and so we we grew from an australian startup solving that problem to.

13:07.32
Tom
Launching in North America at about 2019 and doing a lot of work inside government and defence to help them overcome their workforce transition problems. You know you've got you've got government employees sitting in procurement analyst teams who've got the aptitude to be sitting in the cyber threat hunt team. And they're never going to apply for that job so helping them realize that that journey exists and they can get there and helping the organization see them unlocks a new thinking for talent management so we went to Canada and then two years ago so 21 back in 2021 we went to the Uk and and now we have also.

13:28.39
davidmcdermott
F.

13:44.97
Tom
Branched a strategic initiative into the us which forms our early stage go-to-market in the us so in the last six years we've gone from being you know a family funded startup in a kitchen here to um, a multimillion dollar revenue business with pe funding. Mostly from australian companies some in the uk to be in 4 countries and growing rapidly.

14:04.40
davidmcdermott
Ah.

14:07.10
davidmcdermott
Well well done congratulations on the growth and on seeing a need that wasn't being met are there other competitors in the space or are you unique in providing this service.

14:23.30
Tom
So that's a really good question. Um, when we look at our software product. There are other products in the market that are also talking about unlocking the potential of the workforce and helping people understand what future careers they would be a good fit for. And there's machine learning and maybe even ai depending what you believe that's coming into that space to help with that. What's really unique about with you with me is the focus on the individual. So most most technology is comparing your current job with a future job and providing and a gap analysis. But that doesn't actually represent your holistic ability and so by bringing in the aptitude of personality match to skills. It's a more holistic view of the individual and their true capacity and we all experience this you know I was an infantry officer. Um, but that doesn't mean I can only do infantry officer-like things I have a lot of other skills and abilities to apply in certain categories. So in that sense I think we're relatively unique and then we run a free program to to turn underrepresented talent group into competent digital resources quite fast. And there's over 100000 people interacting in that community and that's quite unique. Most other labor hire providers are looking for people that are already skilled to then plug into a demand somewhere. We're looking for the demand and then building talent to add to the market.

15:44.82
davidmcdermott
Yeah, and just to be clear when you say you know you effectively and create digital resources and that wasn't quite your wording but the term digital resources really grabbed me. It sounds like.

15:45.29
Tom
And solve that problem that way. There's not too many people that are doing that outside the education sector.

16:03.16
davidmcdermott
The the people that you um, help find you know, useful work that that's a good fit for particular organizations. It is in the tech space. They they have training. Ah um, in what you would call you know technology skills to to work in that sector of whatever business or organization. It is is that true.

16:20.80
Tom
Most of the work that we've done and most of the skills that we've built are in digital careers. So cyber it software development data automation those types of career fields and there's multiple jobs that sit within that and the main reason was firstly that's meaningful work for the future. So it's future proof jobs I'm not putting someone into a job that I think is going to disappear in the next five years and the second thing was it's where the pain was you know one of those business things is go where the pain is and so companies were willing to take risk. Try something new where there was lots of pain that they couldn't solve and that's helped us get. You know break into organizations and demonstrate a new model and prove that this can work.

17:04.13
davidmcdermott
Yes, and that makes a whole lot of sense and well done on on seeing that need I mean that's part of the journey of entrepreneurship is on seeing a genuine need and creating something that meets that need and staying at the forefront. You know once you've actually offered someone that's offered something that's proven itself. Um. What are some stories that you can share Tom around your I guess your customers who are you know the vets and and now other other disadvantaged groups. Um, particularly I guess some stories where you know if you have them of. Ah, people not being in a great way. You know who without your service otherwise could potentially you know continue to really be in a lot of pain or even spiral into a further world of pain who by interacting with with you with me have shifted to. Something much better are there are there some stories you can tell that really show the kinds of um people that you uplift.

18:03.33
Tom
Um, there are so many stories and for those who are interested listeners that are interested I encourage you to go to the website and have a look at some of the individual candidate stories that are on there but a couple that come to mind straight away is you know one of our um or of our high-per performing wi. Members we call them squad members people that join our business go through training and then go and work at a customer before taking a job with that customer. Um from the Uk. You know she was ah a Uk policewoman um, and then unexpectedly was injured and that injury stopped her ability to continue to serve as.

18:27.10
davidmcdermott
And.

18:41.51
Tom
An operational police woman and which is devastating um a because your life changed because of this injury but your whole dream was to be this successful. Um, you know police woman and now that you can't do that anymore and she was employed by the organization they wanted to retain her. She was put into a role that isn't necessarily enabling her to reach her potential and she came across with you with me through a friend connection. She joined, um, she she jumped onto the learning platform. She did her testing she matched to digital skills in software development underwent training and then took a job with us.

19:00.56
davidmcdermott
A a.

19:16.79
Tom
Um, as a software developer working at 1 of the defence primes in the Uk and twelve months later scrum master has converted to a full-time role and and has completely turned her view of her life around in terms of what she was capable of achieving after that big tragedy and that's a phenomenal mindset shift for her.

19:30.98
davidmcdermott
Ah.

19:35.89
Tom
Um, one of my favorite stories from Australia is 1 of our early programs I won't name the customer but we were working with government they needed cyber resources um to support their operations center and one of the candidates out of about 15 that we put through the program left.

19:54.40
Tom
Military officer training early wanted to be a pilot. Um, for whatever reason didn't meet that grade so left went to be a private investigator for a number of years came across our platform reskilled in cyber joined this program and eighteen months later was the deputy commander of that. Operation center as a high level public servant and that's just because he had the right traits he had the right leadership capability and he'd learnt enough of the technical requirements to be a good leader in that organization and it just speaks to the fact that you don't need to have a degree or 10 years of experience in anything to be great and. We've got thousands of those stories from our tallap pool and and some of the stories are employees inside companies. They're not people coming through our free program who have also uncovered this unique potential.

20:44.26
davidmcdermott
So really, really cool to hear the stories because a vision a mission comes to life when you hear about you know how your customers are actually being positively impacted by what you do let's shift to you Tom as a leader and. Now Ceo of of with you with me what Ah what insights do you have to share with listeners from um, including before with you with me but also very much your time at the helmet or you know growing through with you with me and now and in the top leadership role I what. What have been your top insights um through your own rich journey of experience.

21:29.84
Tom
Um, so the insights that I brought from the military was about really getting to know and care for the people that you work with um and and making sure that they have clarity around what they need to do to be successful. Whether that's training and learning a new skill or growing their team around them. So in the military I was a leader of leaders as I am here in the business. Um, and I think that's really important. Um, the other thing that the military taught me heavily was that the power of um, collaborative planning and then decisiveness. Post executing of the plan and now in the corporate world I've learned and one of my insights would be that execution beach strategy every day of the week it's quite easy to come up with strategies but it's not as easy to do really good execution and communication of your strategy consistently. Quarter on quarter to get to an outcome and so as a new Ceo a first -time ceo one of Ceo biggest focuses and ongoing challenges is aligning people to the strategy and and focusing people to deliver great execution in a way that makes them feel like. They're winning. They're achieving and they're having big impact and that's something that you have to work on I think every single day It's certainly been my experience. Um I've got a couple more but I don't know if that's something you want to dig into.

22:51.71
davidmcdermott
Well yes, before you go on I I'd love to um, just comment on that one and ask a further question dive a bit deeper so there's a famous strategist Peter Drucker who's the author of good strategy bad strategy so he is and brands himself very much a strategist. But he's well known for saying culture eat strategy for breakfast which is very much in alignment with your your words there of execution beat strategy every day of the week and that comes down total execution of the strategy comes down to what's the culture in the organization and it needs to be a culture that's enabling. Effective implementation of the strategy and you're absolutely right that that is the number 1 thing you might have the most elegant and beautiful and meaningful and inspiring and exciting strategy. Ah better than anyone else in your industry or even the the best strategy in the world of any organisation that ever existed. But if you don't have a culture and that enables that strategy to be implemented. It's completely pointless and far better to have a um, a strategy that still needs work but the ability to implement once it's ready or even implement and refine as you go then. Then the other way around. So what have you found at with you with me have have been the the top things that help with effective implementation of a strategy.

24:20.29
Tom
Um, so even before I just like answer that the culture piece would have been my second point I think that's the most critical thing strategy and culture. Um, they cannot exist without each other and and I think that's the second thing that I spend most of my time working on is. Um, trying to continually build a high-performing culture the military sort of gives you the culture in one sense and it's your job to maintain it whereas in corporatee and in startups you've got to build the culture and that's very very different. So. Um, some of the things that we're doing here I think around this cultural execution and getting people bored in was first of all involve as many of the leaders in your business that make sense in the planning of that strategy including letting them go away. With a top line vision and come back with their own thoughts on how you might achieve that vision in their respective functions and and spend the time to pull all that together into a coherent plan that is simple, measurable. Um and really easy to understand. Um. To the point where in my mind and hear it with you with me our 3 year strategy is on 1 powerpoint slide and if it can't fit on 1 powerpoint slide. It's not simple enough for the business to understand and that's not a measure of anyone's ah, intellect. It's just that.

25:46.94
Tom
You need to be able to remember what that strategy is every single day if you want people to work towards it so it can't be more than one page. Um, otherwise it's just too complicated so collaborative planning. Keep it really simple and then the final piece I think in my experience in the literature is you got to reiterate it. You got to reiterate it as much as you can. From from the Ceo from the leaders and my measure of success is when I start hearing it come back to me in conversations and I often find myself talking to my team saying I'm not hearing it I'm not hearing our strategy come back in random conversations I'm in I'm having in the business. So. Are we talking about it enough.

26:26.90
davidmcdermott
And that is it and and people may feel a little flat to hear that but it really is the answer I mean it. It doesn't sound that exciting. You know, particularly for the Ceo and and the Ceo has that top job and they are the number 1 person who needs to be literally repeating. Strategy and the key messages is that the strategy regularly to their leadership team and those that they interact with at at other levels in the organization and their leaders and managers also need to be regularly repeating the core strategic messages and um and calling out when things get off track. And there is an element of repetition regular repetition which it's not It's not mindblowingly exciting to have to repeat certain things. But if they're if they're interesting and meaningful. Um it. It is part of what what being an effective leader is about and it's not the only. Thing that the Ceo does but it is part of the role and and the best all the best ceos I've made run the most successful businesses they are regularly repeating the key messages of the strategy and ensuring that their top leaders do the same to their teams. It is just a fact. And and it needs to be accepted as part of as part of that leadership role.

27:40.10
Tom
And that's been interesting in the startup journey because in any startup it's exciting because you're doing lots of different things. There's always new projects and ideas that you're working on to really figure out where you fit in market and that's what needs needs to happen for the business to grow through that phase and then. For us we we were transitioning out of that phase into you know, trying to scale and be more predictable and profitable growth as a business and so there is a balance of how do you maintain the strategy in somewhat of a boring sense as you rightly describe. But also.

28:11.73
davidmcdermott
Same.

28:18.10
Tom
Drive Innovation and creative thinking particularly in the way that you want to execute that strategy and and I found Um, it's It's interesting to talk to our leaders about the fact that innovation isn't about changing the plan necessarily.. It's about new ways to make sure we achieve the plan or over overachieve the plan. Um, and contextualizing everything around the strategy is really important.

28:40.71
davidmcdermott
And 100%. So really, really useful insights in terms of at at the top. You know what are the what are the key things you need to be focused on regardless of what industry you're in. Um, to to lead a successful organization and those those key things. Yes, a good strategy but much more important the right culture and and regularly repeating the key messages of the strategy so that you you over time know that everyone in the business knows what the strategy is I I always remember um one of the first. Business consulting and and executive coaching firms I worked with it was actually western australia integral development. Um that one of my colleagues there at the time did a round the world trip with her with her then partner interviewing ceos of of big companies mainly in the us and one of the. Companies she interviewed and taking video footage and compiling you know a project at the time around you know what does it take to to be ah, a successful leader of of a significant organization. But 1 of the organizations that she interviewed was Ray Anderson from interface floor and Ray passed away about ten years ago 1 of his colleagues and um and and partners was an a guest on our podcast on the evolved leadership podcast some time ago Ray and Rob Coombs the former australian Ceo of interface floor but Rob knew Ray very well and it.

30:07.59
davidmcdermott
Ray was well known for his commitment to to mission zero so his spear in the chest epiphany when he read Paul Hawkin's ecology of commerce realizing that a lot of his carpet manufacturing company had a major negative effect on the environment and committing to reduce that to 0 impact. Through a very clear strategy and he told this story they they would run workshops once they really started to get some wins on what they were doing and people would come often very sceptical and going really is is this carpet manufacturer really doing good things to the environment. And there was one particular workshop. There was a woman who turned up and Ray was doing his thing you know giving the presentation and he said when he told the story in the interview and that this woman at the beginning was head down totally not engaging clearly very very cynical about you know what? what content was being shared. Ah had a ah break and at morning tea she came back visibly transformed bright awake supportive. You know, encouraging contributing to the conversation and later he stopped her. He said look I just have to tell you here's my observation of you before morningt you afterwards? What the hell happened and. She said look yes I was very skeptical when I arrived and in the morning teae break I went across the factory floor to to go to the toilet and I stopped one of your forklift drivers and I just had to find out I said look can you just really be honest with me. Do you really care about. You know the vision of this organization and ah surely you're just here to make.

31:39.93
davidmcdermott
To make your salary and get out I mean is it really true that you know every employee from the top to the bottom is totally on board with with ah you know what? what you're doing and in terms of doing good to the world. He said ma'am I'd love to stay in chat with you but I'm saving the world here and I've got to go boom and off he went and that was. You know that was such a great example of actual actual implemented culture from top to bottom that employees believe in right up to the front line and and and that's what you're talking about Tom.

32:07.81
Tom
Um, yeah, and what a proud moment for for that Ceo to know that and hear that story because these things don't and that that don't just happen. Um, and then they're not just. Left to their own devices. You have to work on this every single day. Um, because it's it's difficult. It's difficult.

32:35.20
davidmcdermott
Yes, and and what would you say are the um, you know your number 1 difficulty or or 1 or 2 of the top ones which know is is a challenge that you need to keep working on.

32:37.92
Tom
I.

32:50.14
Tom
Um, so in in the terms of the business. It is about driving great execution and cultural alignment to strategy. Um I wouldn't yet describe our business at its most optimum. Culture for high performing. Um, and no one from from with you with me listening to this would be surprised to hear me say that we are on this journey of getting better and better and better at delivering our offering and having impact in the world. Um, and so that's something that I'm working on in the business sense in the personal sense. Ah, one of the biggest challenges I've had to learn coming into a Ceo role is. It's not your job to do things. It's your job to create an environment for others to successfully do things and so in every other executive role that I've had. Was really directly responsible for achieving a particular hard outcome operationally in the business. But now I have had to step back from that and learn how to facilitate that outcome for whatever of better. Um, and to be completely autonomous. No one's telling me what to do every day. You've got to remember how you have a contribution to executing the strategy that you collectively built and how to create a space and remove barriers for great people to to win and it's their win on that strategy and learning how to do that is something that I'm focused on.

34:18.36
davidmcdermott
Perfect and so and such a great summary of the the role of the Ceo. Yes, every other executive role is about getting stuff done and also enabling their team members to do things. They're sort of like many ceos but they are more they do have operational involvement but you're. Absolutely the Ceo's role is enabling your leaders to do the stuff that needs to be done in the business and to lead that and it's a very unique role. Um. How? how are you going adjusting to that. Do you feel? You've fully settled in and and you've you've really got that sorted or is there still a bit of an adjustment going on where you do dabble in operations as well.

34:58.27
Tom
Um, that's a pretty good question I mean for the listeners I took over as a Ceo in May last year the first two quarters were very focused on founder Ceo Succession and and raising capital and restructuring certain parts of the business the board and. You know we we were transforming a lot of things so in some senses that felt a lot operational and then as we started the new year that it all died down and it was really get back to business. Get back to customers growing improving the product and doing the things that are in the strategy. So I would say um. I'm still on the curve of learning how to be very effective as the Ceo the senior leader to create that environment. Um and part of that is building the team and part of that is putting the systems in place that make them feel really heard and empowered to achieve the vision. So.

35:40.30
davidmcdermott
And.

35:52.69
Tom
I'd say I'm still learning but I'm confident in the direction that we're heading.

35:55.22
davidmcdermott
And you know from hearing your your principles. You've got the fundamentals really sound and and the wisdom is there and it it is kind of your business model I mean you just said it earlier that. Part of your model is you don't need 10 years of experience to be great and and you're you're also walking that talk of you don't have to be a Ceo for 10 years to be a great Ceo and it is. It is absolutely true. You you can learn quite quickly. What's needed to fulfill a certain need. And of course there is wisdom of experience that definitely plays a factor as well.

36:28.44
Tom
Um, yeah.

36:37.20
Tom
There's so much. Um, great literature I have great people around me in terms of the board and advises the beauty of having a social impact company like ours is it does attract a lot of attention from people who care about the problems that we're trying to overcome.

36:50.42
davidmcdermott
F six.

36:52.16
Tom
And so you get access to some amazing people and that means there's a plethora of advice which is which is a really good thing Sometimes it's a difficult thing but it's a really good thing and so one of the things I've had to learn to build into my schedule is is proper thinking time to to actually consider the advice. How is it relevant for us and our plan right now.

36:58.20
davidmcdermott
A.

37:05.35
davidmcdermott
Ah.

37:11.57
Tom
Um, and then what things are you going to take from that now and then what things are you going to leave for later.

37:12.59
davidmcdermott
So I mean I was just working with a client yesterday who every day. Ah, there's one hundred and fifty emails a senior leader you know of of an organization that you know he's he's got a team and and is endlessly asked to to do things. And they're in the agricultural sector and but he he's he literally every day there's one hundred and fifty new emails and about 35 of those he has to spend a fairly significant amount of time responding or taking action on once he clears you know the other 120. How do you Um structure that thinking time Tom so that you are actually able to get that productive time as the as the top leader in the business.

38:03.44
Tom
Um I took an approach of structuring the time during the week when I know our business is quiet as an example, it just happens to be that Monday mornings in our business are typically quiet because the Uk is not online yet. It's still the weekend in North America

38:17.53
davidmcdermott
And.

38:21.29
Tom
And and a lot of people in Australia if you're if you're an early riser like I am that the business is not humming yet. You know so that that time between for me. But yeah, that's right so that that morning time every day that morning time for me between sort of 5 and eight is a really good time to.

38:29.10
davidmcdermott
There's still halfway through the second coffee.

38:41.11
Tom
Um, exercise think read you know, learn and and put things in play to try and be productive for the day and if you can get the most out of those 4 you know if I can get the most out of those 4 hours I don't feel the need to be um, you know, rushing in sort of a panic.

38:42.90
davidmcdermott
Oh.

39:00.80
Tom
Throughout the rest of the day and I can focus on the things that are really going to matter and to that end I'm a big believer in you know there 3 things for the week and they're the most important things and and if you do those? well and they're prioritized as things that are going to impact for the shorter or long-term. That's a very productive week.

39:07.34
davidmcdermott
A.

39:19.83
Tom
More productive than if I was busy on 10000 things so figuring out what those things are consistently every week is important but I'm not perfect. You can't do it every week and so you've got to constantly remind yourself to get that one.

39:20.84
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah.

39:28.90
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah, and so and that's what you can control what about when you get asked to do things that add a lot of unexpected time to ah to your already full calendar and. And I'll just preface this with you know this is something I've seen as a constant challenge as as my story of the client yesterday and there's there's something around boundaries here around if you say yes to everything you'll you'll be overwhelmed and there literally won't be just the time in the in the week to do everything. That you get asked to do on top of what you already have to do so. How do you manage? you know what you get asked to do if it's not a fit with what you what your priorities are.

40:14.29
Tom
Um, ah, kind of have ah a handful of mental questions when you know the email comes in that is asking the Ceo to do something and and that sort of goes something like um, is that a decision that I should be making um is that work that I should be doing.

40:32.11
Tom
Um, why is that question coming to me depending on the answer of those first 2 things. Um, and then those 3 things help you figure out what you want to do is it one of those moments where the business is actually needing me to step in and do something because that's an important part of leadership sometimes. Is is being seen to support um or is it a case of the person that's asking doesn't feel confident and isn't sure how to solve that problem and so I'm going to solve that problem instead of doing the thing for them I'm going to go back and you know coach.

40:50.32
davidmcdermott
And.

41:01.57
davidmcdermott
And.

41:05.50
Tom
What would you do? what decision? Do you want to make yeah, that's the correct decision. Good execute. You don't need to bring that to me anymore and so that that balance I think David is you know how do you make sure people are empowered to have autonomy and make decisions rapidly inside the strategy and then when do you know that it's actually your job to take that one on.

41:11.52
davidmcdermott
Ah.

41:23.51
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yes, and I'm also hearing a flavor an intelligent flavor of seeing a pattern of ah pulling you in on things that you know add to your time and sometimes that's that's right and needed.

41:23.64
Tom
And make it a priority.

41:36.92
davidmcdermott
But if there's a pattern of things that that you're being asked to do that aren't a necessary ongoing pattern you step in you nip it in the butt. You solve that problem and then the person doesn't need to bring the same thing to you on a repeated on a repeated basis and you empower them to sort those sorts of things out for themselves. And that is that is I think the number 1 thing for leaders who are struggling with this particular challenge and there are many of them of just the sheer amount of things they think they have to do how many of those things can they genuinely empower others to sort out so it no longer comes across their plate and waste their time.

42:15.60
Tom
Yeah, and and I think we're all human so you know every other week I'll be reminded by by 1 of my team like ah you know a nudge a nudge on that thing you haven't done it yet I really need that thing done. You know like we all miss things and so I think it's.

42:23.33
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah.

42:29.29
Tom
Important about being human as well as a leader you know that's an important trait I think for the business to see that we're all trying constantly to prioritize and achieve as we head on executing the strategy and sometimes we don't get it perfect.

42:31.44
davidmcdermott
The.

42:38.80
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so to finish Tom you mentioned there's a 3 year strategic plan for with you with me and whether it's a 3 year timeframe or 105 years what What do you see. And what are you excited about with you with me growing into I mean you currently have grown to be in 4 countries. What's what's possible from here. That's that's meaningful for you.

43:11.78
Tom
Um, ah so the the the 3 hree -year goal is to see skills-based talent creation really taking hold in the market and in our customers which is. Ah, direct result of us demonstrating that you can rapidly build talent from these nontraditional pools or from anywhere if you apply this logic of valuing someone's ability over their past experience. Um, and that directly translates for us in the impact that we can have and so. The more people coming through our social impact programs that can find meaningful work. You know whether that's ten thousand or twenty thousand in the next three years and for that to happen organically to build an ecosystem where that becomes the normal is the 10 year vision

43:58.54
davidmcdermott
Cool. Yeah.

44:01.77
Tom
Not necessarily thinking about how we view me monetizes every person. It's about how do we change the ecosystem so that that's the new normal in 10 years that's just how we think about talent management. They're the kind of 3 and big bold 10 year vision for us.

44:11.60
davidmcdermott
And awesome. And yeah, you've gone to the level of what how how do we actually? Uplift humanity Not how much how much more money can we make by doing what we do in more places. And that's that's perfect.

44:32.49
Tom
1 ah, one of the things I'll say really really quickly is one of the things I'd loved from our founder is you used to say that if we if we achieve our our big vision. The company shouldn't exist and what he meant was that if we do change it so that people are valuing skills-based hiring.

44:41.66
davidmcdermott
Ah, yeah.

44:48.68
Tom
Or then there's no need for us. Of course the company will exist and will continue to grow but there wouldn't be a need for this because we've solved the problem and that's quite visionary and I always like that. Yeah, that's right.

44:49.76
davidmcdermott
From that's an ideal. Yeah, really really cool vision. Well, it's been an an absolute pleasure Tom and for those. Who would like to learn more you know whether it's those who are who would be interested in. You know, getting involved with with you with me in some way or or just learning more What's the best way for them to do that.

45:21.83
Tom
Look I think go to the website. It's it's got everything from our stories to to the ability to reach out and connect with us or connect with me directly on Linkedin happy to take a message happy to take the meeting and see if there's something we can do to help you on your journey around finding great talent and building. Great talent. In your organization.

45:39.81
davidmcdermott
Fantastic! Thank you so much once again for your time today.

45:46.10
Tom
Very much enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting me on to the show. David.