#41 Why Older People Matter, with Tim Humphries, CEO of Homestyle Aged Care

My guest in this episode is Tim Humphries. Tim is the CEO of Homestyle Aged Care, a Tier 1 aged care provider. Tim was previously the CEO of Provider Assist, a large, aged care consulting service. He has extensive business experience holding previous C-suite roles within finance and IT. 

Tim is the former Chairman of the board of directors for the Australian Centre for the Prevention of Cervical Cancer. He previously worked on the board of Prestige In-home Care, and the School Council of Wattle Park Primary School. 

Highlights of our conversation include aged care approaching saturation levels, the challenge of being primarily govt funded, exploring why older people aren't being valued, and making sure everyone on the exec team laughs at least once during a meeting.

Enjoy the conversation 

To find out more about Homestyle Aged Care go to: https://homestyleagedcare.com.au 

You can connect with Tim on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-humphries-1435511b/

To learn more about what it takes to be an evolved leader, and to check out our other podcast episodes, go to:  https://www.evolvedstrategy.com.au

Chapters

• 15:35 Aged care approaching saturation levels
• 18:26 The challenge of being primarily govt funded
• 26:20 Why aren't we valuing older people?
• 29:30 Making sure everyone on the exec team laughs at least once during a meeting

Transcript

00:03.43
Tim Humphries
Person with.

00:26.28
Tim Humphries
Um, all of.

00:56.72
davidmcdermott
Ah.

01:02.86
davidmcdermott
Hi guys. My guest today is Tim Humphries Tim is the Ceo of homestyle aged care a role. He's held for over ten years now he has over 20 years of health experience and prior to home style tim was the Ceo of provider assist. Ah, large aged care consulting service. He has extensive business experience including roles within finance up to cfo level and I t up to cio level before moving into Ceo roles. Tim is the former chairman of the board of directors for the australian center for the prevention of cervical cancer and has also served on the board of prestige in homeme care as well as the school council of wattlepipe primary school tim welcome to the show pleasure to have you here. So.

01:48.68
Tim Humphries
Thanks David you know.

01:55.28
davidmcdermott
Um, please fill in the picture that is a little snapshot but tell us tell us about you who are you? you know from as far back as you want to go whether that's birth or maybe a little a little later.

02:07.72
Tim Humphries
Look I ah grew up in the Adelaide Hills in South Australia and went to university there and studied commerce and and following completion of that degree I entered the workforce in the ah early ninety s which for those of you old enough. Will. Remember that was a time of significant economic problem so getting a job was pretty tricky and managed to to get a job in a private business there and it was a wonderful I think first job out of uni because number 1 you realized that the university education that you'd. Successfully completed provided you with few to little skills to navigate into the real world of work but I was I was lucky to have a wonderful mentor and boss in that first role who taught me all those things I needed to to traverse from academia into the real world. So yeah, I'm indebted to him. Forever I think that was ah a wonderful way of getting into work and that was ah my first role was assistant accountant um and that was a yeah private business and that opportunity led to me essentially being cfo by the time I was 24 so my career got off to a pretty good start and then.

03:18.81
Tim Humphries
Following that adelaide's it was a pretty small place I moved across to the Eastern States to Melbourne and um had a number of finance roles across here. Um in a variety of businesses from a private hospital into toll holdings for a period which was an amazing experience. Um, and then a little stint in recruitment. Which I think probably rounded out some sales skills which most accountants don't generally have um so that that was a really cool background and then I reached ah a pivotal point in my career where a couple of friends of mine had had really progressed to to what I thought was successful. Roles. Um, and I realised that I had to choose an industry. Um, and for me, it was either logistics or health and um, fortunately I ah managed to choose health and worked in a large not-for-profit in Victoria that tackled disability services. Ah, residential aged care. Um, and ah and a lot of things around those too. Um, and that was an amazing experience and from there got a lot of opportunities in project management and it and developed a great relationship with the Ceo which really helped me grow. Um. As a person but also professionally realized I needed to do an Mba which I started at that point um then traversed across into a privately owned resy aged care business cfo where I spent five odd years and that was amazing and then yeah luckily got.

04:44.18
Tim Humphries
Offered a role through through industry connections in a consulting business which was awesome and I think that was probably I remember sitting in that first meeting in that role thinking as a contributor to these executive meetings as it always been you sort of sit there and you contribute and I realised at the end of the conversation and everyone looked at me because I actually had to make the call and it was sort of that. That moment where you go from being a contributor to the one who actually is is the ultimate decision maker and I'll I'll never forget that first meeting where I realized that I'll cryy that that's now me that has to has to do that. Um, and that was an amazing roller I loved I loved every minute of of that place. The the people and just. Being able to cover an industry broadly rather than operating inside a business was was a really fun to do um and whilst I was there I I sort of the role that I'm in now advertised and it was something that I'd always wanted to do to sort of really tackle that Ceo role across a larger business. So we yeah, um.

05:32.00
davidmcdermott
Um.

05:40.86
Tim Humphries
Care for about a thousand people and employ about 1500 people and I thought I think I can do that. Um, and in the back of my mind I didn't think I'd get the role but I thought if I didn't apply I'd regret not applying so yeah applied for the role and and yeah, really fortunately got the gig and I've been here now for 10 years managing

05:44.50
davidmcdermott
This is.

06:00.37
Tim Humphries
You know a medium-sized business in what has been a challenging industry that's endured a royal commission covid and yeah in in metro Melbourne covid was ah yeah, a challenging environment. But yeah, covered in metro Melbourne during yeah, what was.

06:13.30
davidmcdermott
Ah.

06:18.36
Tim Humphries
Significant period of restriction and problem was it tough.

06:25.94
davidmcdermott
So there's a lot there and I'll just and pick a couple of things that you mentioned earlier to begin with one was you said you realized at one point that you had to do an Mba so I just want to challenge you on that. It's ah it's an interesting one and a lot of leaders do go and do an Mba. But.

06:35.60
Tim Humphries
Um, you.

06:43.17
davidmcdermott
What what was your thinking at the time that you know you felt you had to do an Mba.

06:47.83
Tim Humphries
Um I look ah it was I was working at villa Maria Society and I had to the the Ceo and 1 of the general managers of community services were doing an Mba um and they started to use language that I didn't understand. Um, and and that was probably for me the trigger I thought oh wow, they're they're going and learning and I can't it was almost like they were speaking another language so I realised for me that if I wanted to both progress to that level but also contribute up to that level I had to learn this new language which was.

07:21.55
davidmcdermott
And.

07:22.50
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, that that was for me the the bit and and I think perhaps also through through my time working in recruitment I realized that in many ways if you were going through a short list of candidates and Mba was one of those things so you know if you had a 100 applicants. You might have. 20 with an Mba they they just automatically got into the the in pile. So you know there was probably a combination of those 2 things I suspect that that made me realize it was something and that I really needed to do if I wanted to progress into you know the roles. Yeah and and.

07:50.82
davidmcdermott
And what what was the what was the benefit of doing it in terms of once you completed the degree like wait for those who are because many leaders consider it and or they're offered through their organizations to do one. What what do you see are the top reasons that you.

07:59.69
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, yeah.

08:09.00
davidmcdermott
You know the the top benefits that you got out of it that you recommend it to others as well as the you know the things that may be other myths about doing an Mba that aren't that aren't actually true. So I guess the yeah the top benefits as well as the top myths to to bust up.

08:09.62
Tim Humphries
5 yeah.

08:22.19
Tim Humphries
Yeah, oh look I think perhaps the 1 thing that I really enjoyed I can almost still I can still remember the first lecture I went to I could feel my brain turning back on. So just that that process of learning was a great thing to do and I really enjoyed that. But I think with the benefit of you know at the time I was forty and I had you know twenty odd years of experience um the combination of the experience with the learning pretty much everything we talked through academically I could apply the next day in my day job. so it was the application of the learning was almost immediate um so you know I think I can't pinpoint. 1 thing. It's more of an everything you know you kind of you think about what you do at work and and I think you just you just apply what you'd learned both immediately and and. That still is within now you know and I know a lot of the things that I apply whether it's strategy or I mean finance was was something that I'd more completed earlier but I think the strategy and probably marketing as well is just it just rounded out my skillset. You know as an accountant you you have the given of the finance. But for me. Doing some work around marketing and organizational behavior I think gave me some additional knowledge that I didn't didn't have that gave gave me more a breadth of skills that I think is really beneficial. Once you get into the you know the the broader general management type roles. Um, and I think probably the myths are that.

09:54.77
Tim Humphries
It's easy to do. It's not you know it is a real commitment. Um, so you know you have to have an environment where you can actually commit to it because it does take a lot of time and you yeah, you have to sacrifice stuff to to get it done. Um, but you know I think Broadly. It's It's just a good thing to do I mean I'm an advocate for learning I think we all should be learning something every day and I think that process of going through a formal ah formal degree like that is is really Helpful. So Yeah I'd encourage everyone to do it I think it's ah it's a good thing to do. But I think. I would say it's a good thing to do after you have a good level of experience because I think you yeah you can apply your knowledge to the degree rather than the other way around.

10:36.50
davidmcdermott
Ah.

10:43.99
davidmcdermott
Well that makes sense. Um, and in terms of your um, your journey since then so I mean let's let's look at now and see of Homestyle aged care and before we dive into.

10:44.93
Tim Humphries
Are.

10:54.95
Tim Humphries
Are.

10:59.12
davidmcdermott
You know, specifically what you do and and what the organization's about looking at the industry I mean it is a ah megadury aged care and it's one of those industries like education where there are guaranteed clients. Um because everyone does age and of course not everyone does go into aged care.

11:08.36
Tim Humphries
Um, you know, um.

11:17.60
davidmcdermott
And it's interesting from a global perspective. You know if you look at difference in cultures like Eastern cultures. There's there's much less of a I guess dependence and ah and ah and a need for aged care. There's more of a culture of the.

11:25.16
Tim Humphries
Um, um.

11:31.20
davidmcdermott
And the elderly going in to live with their their children and and so on through the generations whereas in the Western world. There is much more of a um, a need and and a and a demand for aged care and it is more more the norm. What? what can you comment on from an industry perspective in terms of. You know, let's say however long aged care has been around for from from your knowledge. Um, so and and what the I guess Key Milestones and the you know the the challenges and and the the winds and the peak experiences have been if you look at the journey of the industry of aged care.

11:56.39
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, um.

12:08.30
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, yeah.

12:10.23
davidmcdermott
Um, and and ah then now what? what's hot and what's not in in the industry and and then the next one ah hundred years. What? um you know what do you see coming that that concerns you and and what what excites you? so.

12:15.90
Tim Humphries
Um, yet.

12:23.69
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, yeah.

12:28.25
davidmcdermott
Past present and future can can you give us a two hundred year perspective or however long I don't know how long the the aged care industry's been around. But um, wherever it began can you give us that past present future picture.

12:38.78
Tim Humphries
Yeah, well look I guess my mum worked in aged care when I was a kid so I got an exposure to it. You know back in my sort of yeah late teens early 20 s so I had ah an overview of of what the industry was like then and it was very much.

12:56.42
Tim Humphries
People that had a lot of independence still went into aged care. So it was more of ah, almost a choice that people would say well look I'm I'm happy to go and live somewhere else now where I can have my meals cooked but I still have a car and I can do whatever I wanted to do in the community so that was probably. You know 30 forty years ago that was pretty much the Norman and homes were called hostels and people pretty much had a lot of independence and it was just more that perhaps a partner had died and they just wanted some some socialization and it was you know it was almost an active choice if we fast- forward to. You know when I started a home style. There was sort of still a smattering of that but most people were coming into care because they'd lost some independence. Um, and I think that's very much the case now people enter into residential care when there's either been a critical health incident or. Ah, partner who's been a key a key carers died or or you know there's a need for real support whether it's medical social or or just that that general support that people might not be able to provide for themselves anymore. Um, and I think the the key the key things that ah that have occurred more recently is government. Have really pushed for people to stay at home and I think we would all say that yep, that's that's a good thing. People do want to remain in their own homes. Um, and I I completely support that but we also get to see the other side of the equation where we have people come into our care and they will say wow this is.

14:25.77
Tim Humphries
This is wonderful I wish I'd done this earlier and we we had a resident speak in our board meeting last week and and she's simply said I always wanted to avoid aged care and and and for me her saying that was like that's cool because that's what a lot of people do say but then she added. Ah, wish I'd moved in two years earlier because now that I'm here I really do enjoy it and I think the the benefits of you know, a lot of people say oh you'd move into aged care and your health declines. That's not actually true. Most people when they enter residential aged care particularly. Um, their health improves they they have medication. You know they're showered they eat and importantly for a lot of people. They then have socialisation which for for many older people they're living alone and as they lose the ability to drive and perhaps their mobility declines. They really become quite isolated. So. So that improvement in health comes from those four things which you know that's a really cool thing that we do. We actually can enhance someone's lives. Someone's life. Um, and and the other thing that I think as sayidi we we dismiss is we see an old person and we might we see them and as an old person. But. part of the part of my job. That's an absolute joy is I get to hear the stories of of some of these people and there was there was one particular resident I spoke to a while ago and I realised that she was quite different and she she talked me through her life and I was fortunate enough to go through a photo album with her and and she showed me photos. She'd lived across the planet completely.

15:56.39
Tim Humphries
But my favorite photo was a photo of her and Nancy and Ronald Reagan in front of the white house and I looked at the photo and she saw saw the look on my face and she just looked at me and said yes that is the president of the United States so you know we we forget that these people have lived remarkable lives and if you get the opportunity to speak with them and. And hear the stories. It's it's ah it's a pretty cool thing. Um, so that's probably the now the future look I think royal commissions which we've endured do things to industries that aren't necessarily great. They lead to a lot more regulation. Um, which I think in many ways stifles. Our ability to do things better. Um I think fortunately you know the organization that I'm in we we're almost trying to ignore the the stifling and the regulation and focusing in on the residents. Um, and and I think probably over the. Over the next fifty to one hundred years we'll see things change a fair bit. Um, but I think that'll probably be more in the higher social socioeconomic areas where you know from my time at at prestige and home care people with high means would stay at home and they would bring in registered nurses and have that sort of. 7 care in home simply because they could afford it. So I think that will continue in that sort of higher so socioeconomic area I think and this is probably going to sound true almost controversial. But I think the industry broadly in the medium term is going to reach saturation. So I think we'll find that.

17:27.79
Tim Humphries
A lot of people may not be able to find care as they need it in the residential space. They may also struggle to get support in home simply because there's been a significant lack of investment across the sector during both covid and the the follow-up from a royal commission. So I think there's going to be. Some problems that society faces in not being able to support get the support they need as they age. Um, which is tougher in the demo. We all know what the demographics are that as a society we're aging. Um, so we need more support but you know. In residential particularly the investment has pretty much stagnated for the last 3 or 4 years and to to get new beds up and running we need a return to reasonable viability. Um, but we also need to make sure that we've got the people to provide the care as well. Which is another problem that the. The in-home care space faces. But I think once we push past that and the industry cycles through these peaks and troughs of being relatively financially performing well and financially performing poorly. We've reached the trough and I think we'll start to see an influx of investment. Um, and that'll probably. I think that will start to see some new models. Emerge. There's a lot of talk of small house models where you know the disability sector for a long time is housed. You know 5 to 6 people with an intimate type arrangement I think we will see that emerge in the aged care space which you know that that might be a good thing.

18:58.93
Tim Humphries
I think perhaps we need to think about the industry as it is and what works well and I think in these larger environments. We get the benefit of you know socialization and people being able to interact with a lot of other people rather than just 4 or 5 which might. Lead to problems a bit but could be beneficial too. But I think the the changes perhaps as we push out you know in the 50 to 100 year window I think medical advances and hopefully the ability for us to really hal dementia. I think that will probably be the big change that we see into the future. There's a lot of research going into dementia and if I think about the resident cohorts that the industry cares for now sort of the estimates are around 70 but percent of people living in residential aged care have some form of dementia so you know. Halting you know there is no cure for dementia once that brain starts to degrade. We can't we can't reverse that you know we can use neuroplasticity to to re-educate the brain but we can't we can't reverse the damage. So I think perhaps the ability for medicine to stop that degradation of of the human brain. We'll see. Quality of life I think improve for for us as we age. Um, and and I think that will probably be the biggest change that we see which will probably lead to a reduction in the need for the more formal resie care as we have now and and probably a reduction in the in-home care space. But it won't remove the need for.

20:26.52
Tim Humphries
That social inclusion which I think is probably always going to be the big part of aging keeping people socially active and and probably fit active too.

20:33.47
davidmcdermott
Well, there. Ah,, there's so much there to explore and I know you know with listeners. There'll be listeners at all levels of of experience with what you're talking about those with aged parents in aged Care. You know those who. Have um, parents living with them elderly parents those whose parents have in-home care who are probably living in their the home. They've lived in for most of their lives you know and have um, paid support to come and provide in-home care which as you say is more those with the means to do so Um, so.

21:05.14
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah.

21:08.79
davidmcdermott
I Want to just go into a bit more this point you made around aged care is approaching Saturation levels is that primarily I mean is it a matter of as numbers Grow. Ah in terms of the need for people to to access aged care services. There needs to be literally the physical spaces. To um to house people is it really? Ah, an accommodation and land and building question.

21:28.84
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah.

21:33.64
Tim Humphries
Ah, yeah I think that's part of it. But I think um, it's also industry lifecycle um, a lot of the the buildings that are currently used for for residential aged care were built in the seventy s eighty s and 90 s as the industry sort of started. Um. And a lot of those buildings and and the estimates are from from people who know the industry broadly better than me are saying about 30% of the of the industry is at end-of-life. So we've got a combination of the demographics going straight up as we age. Um, we've got this aging stock of say 30% which is pretty much end of life and we've had a significant lack of investment through the last four to five years so it's ah, a combination of all of those things that at a point in time. Um, and and I think perhaps the next five odd years are going to see that really. Reach problematic levels. Um and the returns on investment and you know for us. It's like 40 to $50000000 to build a new residential aged care home and and anyone with any sort of business or financial acumen would say well you want a pretty good return on that especially given the risks associated with what we do.

22:29.21
davidmcdermott
Ah.

22:45.79
Tim Humphries
And the returns for the last couple of years. The industry broadly has been losing money. Um, so I think when you bundle all that together. It shouldn't be a surprise that we're heading towards that lack of supply. So I think it's really important that.

23:00.39
Tim Humphries
Regulators start to and and government starts to realize that there needs to be an appropriate return on that significant amount of capital.

23:07.78
davidmcdermott
And are the losses due to government funding being needed to supplement you know, income directly from what residents pay so that ah you know you actually make a profit is it the lack of funding from government.

23:21.56
Tim Humphries
Yeah, yeah, it has been I think probably that coupled with you know the the pandemic. Um, we certainly saw a lot less people entering care particularly in Victoria as a result of the pandemic. Um, so yeah that that occupancy issue became real for us. That started to turn around now and and as I said that that will the the occupancy issue for us will evaporate and the returns will improve um, but yeah, look the the funding and you know credit where it's due the the current government has invested significantly to do 2 things number 1 to improve the pay rates for all of our care staff. That was pretty widely publicized that they all received a 15 % pay increase which was very well deserved. But interestingly the funding for that. Um, didn't really cover the entire cost. So as a private enterprise. We pay a number of things like payroll tax that.

24:00.50
davidmcdermott
And.

24:16.26
Tim Humphries
Not-for-profits don't pay so for us we basically went backwards in passing on that increase to our to our staff. Um, but more recently there's been a you know? ah ah, ah, significant increase in our funding that came through late last year so that that's been you know well received and I think.

24:22.33
davidmcdermott
Ah.

24:33.85
Tim Humphries
Probably for the first time in four or five years we're starting to see a little more optimism across the sector that governments starting to understand the issues and we're starting to see some improvements in funding.

24:43.30
davidmcdermott
Okay, well let's just go forward into the future and whether it's a hundred years or whatever timeline is is useful. So one of our previous guests was a director of. Um, artificial intelligence and and data science at Ibm and we explored there the scenario of Ai what people call I think the singularity where ai basically becomes independent in its thinking and actually starts to.

25:00.63
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, um.

25:15.70
davidmcdermott
To take power in that you know scenario of robots overtaking the world and and running the show and ah you know we just explored that scenario. Let's explore what happens you know when saturation levels are reached and and we say okay we are now saturated and the industry as ah as a whole cannot actually take on more.

25:16.75
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah.

25:28.14
Tim Humphries
Um, no.

25:34.88
davidmcdermott
Residents Firstly, if things continue as in the way that they are where you say that? Yeah, there is what they are approaching saturation levels when is that as a rough date and if that occurs what's what's the scenario. You know that maps out after that.

25:50.68
Tim Humphries
Look I think we've we've passed the point of no return on that. So I think there's we can't avoid that saturation point and I would sort of predict. It probably 8 eight months away eighteen months to 2 years We'll see that you know either people in in home or or in residential care. They just won't be able to get care so we'll see older people pretty much left at home and families needing to provide that support. Um, so yeah, look I think that's the the crux of it. Sorry what was it the the next question David. Um.

26:22.40
davidmcdermott
Well like so when you say elderly people needing to be left at home and and families providing support so that there will simply be a requirement like families will not be able to put their elderly parents into it into a home due to.

26:38.48
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, yeah.

26:41.50
davidmcdermott
Lack of available um accommodation due to funding not being there to to I guess build build the extra spaces needed at least currently and there will just simply be ah, just a need that can't be ignored for. Children if they're there to to go in and look after the parents in their home or take the parents into their own home would they be the 2 viable solutions.

27:01.53
Tim Humphries
Yeah I think in the short and medium termia. That's that's where we're going to land. But I think if you think about the process that we go through to to to get a block of dirt through to an aged care home opening. That's sort of. Ah, at very best that's like 3 years so even if today we're going to start the process. So if I'm sort of suggesting that in eighteen months time we'll reset saturation the development that needs to take place even if we started today is going to be on the ground in 3 years so that that issue extends.

27:23.34
davidmcdermott
Ah.

27:38.41
Tim Humphries
Starts in eighteen months and pushes at least another eighteen months past that probably more realistically another 3 to 5 years I suspect until that catch-up starts to happen. But it's going to require people taking you know some risks in the in the in the now.

27:45.58
davidmcdermott
And.

27:54.70
Tim Humphries
To make the assumption that the the industry viability will improve so we're going to make the investment now based on a promise you know and not many businesses. Do that? Do they I think that's and and you know our industry is largely government subsidised around seventy seventy percent to 75% of our funding or our income is government subsidised and I think that's the.

28:00.59
davidmcdermott
Yep. Yeah.

28:09.23
davidmcdermott
Right.

28:14.68
Tim Humphries
That's perhaps the the quandary that government faces that you know I think largely government doesn't want to fund private Enterprise profit. Um, which is reasonable However, from a business perspective. No one would invest significant amounts of money in anything without a reasonable Return. So I think that's kind of the challenge you sort of come back to with Well if government doesn't want to provide the service and they're reliant upon the notforfit brought not-for-profit and private sector to fund it. They have to expect that that sector should expect a reasonable return and and that's probably the conversation We haven't been mature enough as an industry to have yet. What is a reasonable rate of return for us to earn on significant amounts of capital and and you know significant amounts of risk we operate in a pretty a pretty highly regulated and high risk environment too which normal would require higher returns not lower.

29:09.35
davidmcdermott
Yes, yes, and ah and that makes sense and is there any work being done to to have that conversation in the industry as it as you say it hasn't It hasn't really happened well to this. This point.

29:21.93
Tim Humphries
Yeah, yeah, look I mean interestingly the royal commission touched touched on it. Very briefly. Um, and they they surmised the situation quite well I think perhaps government currently is a little nervous simply because of the demographics. So if they open. Open that can now and start pumping money into the sector. It's probably not now that they're worried about it's 5 to 10 years where the numbers get dramatically bigger. Um, so I think they're trying to stifle as much as they can the expenditure at the moment to sort of save it save future funds. But um, yeah, look. Ah I don't know the conversations are had we have ah we have an industry association that's sort of been a little bit fragmented. We've sort of come together as 1 industry now under the leadership of 1 1 industry body I think that could probably be used. To to express those concerns in a stronger fashion. But I think at the moment if we think about from a state government perspective in Victoria the state governments trying to recover every dollar they can and save every dollar they can. The federal government is probably in a slightly better position where you know they're talking about a surplus. But. Certainly got significant debts. So I think we're competing with so many other sectors including the and ndis the disability sector that's sort of being well publicised as having a ah ah, really big increase in expenditure. So I think that competition for government funds is.

30:54.21
Tim Humphries
Is perhaps the issue that we're coming up against but you know realistically the the overall spend is going to have to increase simply because of the demographics and then yeah, the the return on Capital I think is probably that. That's the sleeper and we need to push that a little more to say well. At the moment if we took all of our capital out and stuck it in a bank Account. We'd earn more in bank interest than we do out of operating the industry.

31:17.71
davidmcdermott
Yes, yeah, so which is really it comes back to providing a service that you're here to you're here to provide a service and the way that Homestyle aged care Uplifts Humanity is instead of sticking a.

31:23.40
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah.

31:33.41
davidmcdermott
Ah, certain amount of capital in a bank and earning interest to make certain a certain cohort of people a bit richer. They actually enable they put that into and you know and and with a lot of energy and risk and and effort providing a place for elderly people to to live I Guess the last part of their lives in.

31:39.34
Tim Humphries
Um, no.

31:51.18
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah, absolutely so.

31:53.42
davidmcdermott
As much comfort as possible. So so before before we move into a specific leadership focus just 1 more question around the yeah, the possible future the world population you know continues to grow. Um, and you know the. There's various thoughts on whether that's going to continue at current rates or or escalate or even or even decrease there's various. You know, perspectives on that question but ah, whatever, whatever the case it sounds like um the the predictions are for the elderly that the elderly. Will continue to to increasingly have a need for for aged care in larger numbers and tell me if I'm wrong, but that's what I've understood and and if that's the case unless there are significant and a significant There's a significant expansion of the. And facilities to to be able to house them. They're going to need to stay in their primary place of residence that they lived most of their lives and and as you say receive care unpaid care from usually family.

33:02.20
Tim Humphries
Um, you.

33:04.93
davidmcdermott
And do you see that That's viable or do you see any you know, apocalyptic scenarios of you know, really major problems occurring when when that becomes if that becomes more and more the norm.

33:16.13
Tim Humphries
Ah, yeah, look I I mean I hate to say this. But yeah I think there will there will be. You know as we head into the future. There'll be tales of of people being found dead in their homeline for a period of time and you know we've all we've all seen those media reports over time where you know the elderly neighbor.

33:29.26
davidmcdermott
And.

33:33.58
Tim Humphries
Didn't see them for a while and ultimately found them home alone and and dead for some time. Ah I think that sounds like a horrible thing to say but but I I can't see that being anything other than the truth and increasingly so as we head into the next sort of couple of years um

33:36.70
davidmcdermott
And.

33:46.61
davidmcdermott
And.

33:52.22
Tim Humphries
And and and it will simply be because there are no other options and and you know if I think about our business we'll be. We'll be managing wait lists and trying to try to accommodate as many people as we can as efficiently as we can but will will be a capacity and I think broadly the industry will be um and from a home care perspective.

33:54.20
davidmcdermott
And.

34:09.33
davidmcdermott
Yep.

34:11.73
Tim Humphries
1 of the biggest issues that home care faces at the moment is attracting and and and having enough staff to service the needs of their consumers as well. So it's both a human a human issue in in attracting and retaining people to the sector as well as ah, a building capacity issue.

34:29.82
davidmcdermott
Yeah, that makes sense and yes it sounds like you know you mentioned it that conversation I guess around well funding at 1 level but preparing ah to meet the need as best you can for what for what might come. I mean you know when ah when apartheid was going on in South Africa there were major global movements at the leadership levels from various private industry bodies like shell and and governments and and I know a number of the the parties you know who now are you know, very senior. Leaders in various roles. But who at the time were involved in those conversations to basically solve the apartheid problem and you know there were various things that went on and one of the things that was a resolution was the truth and reconciliation commission afterwards to try and bring some healing and and it was you know through.

35:03.12
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah.

35:20.91
davidmcdermott
Desmond too to a very um positive enterprise. But the conversations were very ah detailed very strategic involved a whole bunch of very senior people from the public and private sector and and they needed to happen and they did happen and and although it was ah very ugly period of the world. Um, there was a commitment from it from a large group of of leaders around the world to to sort it out and and and bring healing afterwards. So it sounds like at the moment in the aged care sector. There. There is not that um, whole whole of ah approach you know, whole ofdustry approach where the various parties. Gather together to have ah a strategic conversation to um to actually address what might come and and if I guess if if certain scenarios occur. What's the plan and make sure the resources are there as best as you can to to meet that need is that a fair assessment that that conversation hasn't. Really happened yet properly.

36:19.73
Tim Humphries
Look I think perhaps the government would argue that it has and it it happened in the form of a royal commission. But I suspect anyone who's been associated with the Royal commission would argue Royal commissions aren't good. Um.

36:24.26
davidmcdermott
Right.

36:32.38
Tim Humphries
And the aftermath of a Royal commission is just generally more regulation and more scrutiny which doesn't necessarily lead to good outcome. It just increases cost. Um but look I think at the base of it all I think perhaps the issue that we face as a society is that we don't necessarily value our our older. Older people in the community and I think that's that's probably the bigger the bigger conversation that we should be having you know why aren't we valuing older people. Why aren't we benefiting from their experience and knowledge I think that's that's probably the bigger. The bigger point that we. Government can probably duck and dodge it a little bit because as a society we don't seem to be really concerned about older people. Um, and as you touched on it. It probably only becomes an issue for us when our parents age or someone we know, ages and needs that support and until that happens it's sort of something that sits behind. In the background is something We don't need to worry about that and I think that's probably a point until we start consciously having conversations about this being and becoming an issue and needing to address it. Um, it's not going to be resolved. Um, and yeah. I Think that that's the the biggest thing is ageism is a word that we use across the sector a little bit and I think as a society we are Ageist. We don't We don't the benefit of older people and many years ago I asked a question when I was working for a not-for-profit that did both disability services and aged care I said why is it.

37:54.60
davidmcdermott
Ah.

38:03.59
Tim Humphries
That the school that we have for kids with a disability is able to raise significant funds very easily yet. We can't seem to raise a red scent for older people and basically the answer that I got which I think probably still holds true is that as a society we. Protect and value younger children because they've got a long life to live and we want to support them as best we can whereas older people. We just sort of see as well. They've only got a couple of years left to live so they should be okay and sounds horrible to say out loud. But I think it pretty much reflects what weight of the society.

38:24.30
davidmcdermott
Ah.

38:34.84
davidmcdermott
In data.

38:38.64
Tim Humphries
Think of of that that cycle of life from childhood through to end of life.

38:43.18
davidmcdermott
Yes, yes, yes and I can see there's a conversation that needs to happen because as you say a Royal commission is not a um. A a truly powerful conversation that leads to constructive outcomes that gather all stakeholders stakeholders together on a United front to do something about the wicked problems that you know a particular sector faces and a Royal commission is something which always. Ah.

39:03.40
Tim Humphries
Had.

39:11.34
davidmcdermott
And brings a lot of stress and and challenge and yeah, there are pros as well as cons but it's it's not the conversation that I'm talking about that and you're talking about that needs to happen. So in terms of leadership Tim and if we can just take ah a bit of a look to finish at a.

39:16.21
Tim Humphries
Um, yes I.

39:19.38
Tim Humphries
Um, she larry.

39:30.25
davidmcdermott
You know at at home style itself and that more an internal focus and it isnt ah, an industry and you can please comment. You're the expert that people probably see a lot more that ah than.

39:39.58
Tim Humphries
Hacker artist.

39:44.91
davidmcdermott
Um, that many people do in their lives in terms of working with the elderly and and as people approach those last and the last years of their lives and and living in that space and working in that space on a day-to-day basis as service providers and hat.

39:51.59
Tim Humphries
Ah.

39:59.75
davidmcdermott
What's the vibe at home style in terms of I guess Morale of team and what what are the stories. You can tell of ah you know the the positives and the challenges that you you face in terms of as a team and and how do you deal with those.

40:15.19
Tim Humphries
Ah, look I think interestingly covid I think taught us a lot about how we do things and you know we we changed a lot but I think one of the one of the key things that that that I tried to do as we navigated. What was really challenging a really challenging environment we we were having. In some instances meetings daily. Um and after a period of time I I could see that everything was really serious and it was starting to become really stressful. So I deliberately made an attempt to make sure that everyone on the Exec team laughed at least once in a meeting. And it was kind of fun. You know we all got used to the Brady bunch screen on on teams or whatever, whatever tool we were using and I kind of ticked everyone off as we went through the meeting to make sure everyone had laughed and I think we've now reached a point where we now have returned to face-to-face meetings and often. The you know the people that sit in the office near the boardroom where we meet will say what goes on in there you laugh a lot. So I think you know one of the one of the things that we've managed to do is find some fun in what we do and I think that's really important. Um. And you know when you when you get the opportunity to talk to older people jeers you certainly laugh then because some of the things that come out of the mouths of of older people is just is wonderful. You know it's an absolute privilege to to be able to do that and I think that's.

41:30.90
davidmcdermott
Yes.

41:36.62
Tim Humphries
That's the best part of the job that I have I mean I mean 1 of our homes today and ah I got to meet a new resident here and have a walk around and he was a delightful man and I asked him if there was anything we could do here and he took me out to the took me out to the garden and suggested that the palm tree needed a bit of pruning. So just that engagement. Of of you can just sort of say that he appreciated the time and he said thank you so much for your time and I think genuinely older people have that beautiful appreciation for time and they respect time which I think is a pretty cool thing. Um the the other thing that I remember. In my early days. We had a manager of 1 of our homes who was delightful and she had decided that she was going to leave us she ah offered another role in another organisation which was a great promotion for her and I was really worried about having a meeting and having to let the residents know that this particular person was leaving because and I knew that she was. Was loved broadly by the resident cohort so we had the meeting. Um and after the meeting without exception I think it was just ah, just about every resident went straight to this person and said we're so happy for you and so proud of you. And it was just one of those dumb things I thought of course they are. They've all lived a life where they want to see people succeed so they were selfless as well in in wanting for her to succeed so you know getting to observe that sort of stuff makes you I just constantly come back to the older people in our society have this wonderful.

42:50.44
davidmcdermott
And.

43:06.60
Tim Humphries
Breadth of experience and lived life and when you get the opportunity to enjoy that. It's ah ah, it's a wonderful. It's a wonderful day and that's probably the the key part of what I try to espouse to all of our team and I'm getting back into the habit myself of spending more and more time in the homes.

43:14.64
davidmcdermott
Ah.

43:25.31
Tim Humphries
We care for people in because you know any any time in the home is you know? oh that's a good day. The days that are in the homes interacting and laughing with the residents we care for is a bloody good day. So that's that's the most important part of what we do. So yeah, keeping Central is is the key thing I think.

43:28.78
davidmcdermott
And yes.

43:38.31
davidmcdermott
Yeah, yeah, well,, that's really cool to hear and um, yes I mean the the wicked problems that exist in this sector in most sectors have what. What we call Wicked problems or complex problems that don't have a particular answer. But um, you know the the idea is to get the right people together in the room to have a strategic conversation to to work through it. But in terms of the actual work itself I can hear just from your you know what? you're describing and the stories you've told the.

44:12.98
davidmcdermott
Peak experiences that you can have with it with the elderly that um sound like the quite magical moments that um team members at Homes stylele aged care can experience in their role and and that's really beautiful to hear and thank you for sharing those stories.

44:17.85
Tim Humphries
Um, yeah.

44:27.72
Tim Humphries
Place No pleasure.

44:30.80
davidmcdermott
So we're at time Tim but are there any final thoughts or or insights for whether it's leadership aged care or anything that you'd you'd like to leave listeners with.

44:39.87
Tim Humphries
Ah I think that the simple thing is you know being a Ceo is kind of a a tough giek. But I think there there was one one 1 last story. Um I remember we'd we'd opened ah a brand new home. Um, and one day I was delivering a bunch of computers out to the to this new home. Um, and just installing them because you know sometimes you just need to do what you need to do? Um, so one and one of the team members out there wandered up and had a chat to me and she just assumed that I was an it person turning up. To to help plug in computers. The next time I went there she she came and apologized and said oh my god I'm so sorry I didn't realize you were the Ceo and you can call me the it guy if you like I don't mind and from that day forward every time I went there. She said oh there's the it guy so you know we we can often take ourselves pretty seriously and and.

45:18.30
davidmcdermott
For for.

45:31.83
davidmcdermott
Ah.

45:32.14
Tim Humphries
Want for people to see the importance in what we do I think generally people do that already. It's trying to trying to keep things on a human level and I don't know trying to trying to be like everyone else is a pretty important thing. So walking the talk and picking up a bit of rubbish off the ground and.

45:45.81
davidmcdermott
Ah.

45:49.44
Tim Humphries
Just doing doing whatever needs to be done I Think's a really important thing to do and I guess you could call that leading. By example, if you like but you know that no job is too big or too small for anyone.

45:52.11
davidmcdermott
Perfect. Yeah yeah, perfect point to finish with. Thank you very much and thanks so much for your time today. Tim it's been thoroughly fascinating.

46:06.86
Tim Humphries
Um, pleasure. Thank you.