Today's guest is a Amira Valliani (@amiravalliani). As Policy Lead at the Solana Foundation (@SolanaFndn), Amira is at the forefront of relations between government entities and the crypto economy in the US.
In this episode, she explains how each side views the other, what her challenges are in telling the story to both sides and why she thinks crypto can be a huge opportunity for the US economy.
Amira is also spearheading a project called Jane DAO to fight for reproductive rights in the United States. You can find the account at Jane DAO on Twitter (@JaneDAOxyz)
There's a second aspect to, you know, the role that crypto can have on not just the American economy, but the global economy, but I think is really undertold, which is it's potential to really just speed up the velocity of money because the rate at which transactions are being settled is so much quicker. All right, Amir, welcome to the podcast we have wanted to have you on for so long. And we're really excited to do this today. I am so pumped to be here. I'm glad it I'm glad it came together. I think we, first started mul on this idea on a beach in Mexico. So it's, it's fun to see you on the other side. Absolutely. So I know some of this stuff, but I would love for you to start by telling our audience who you are in terms of like, what did you do before you fell down the web three rabbit hole? And then how did you fall down the web three rabbit hole? Cause you've got a pretty interesting story here. Sure. So I, run public policy at the Salona foundation, the Salona foundation advocates on behalf of the Salona blockchain, which is, I would say one of the, the most used layer, one blockchains in the world. how I got here is kind of a funny story of, but it starts with, sort of a lifelong journey. That's always been intrigued by the possibility of change that. Policy can affect, but also technology can affect. So, you know, I grew up in the bay area. I have been surrounded by entrepreneurs going up. My dad's an entrepreneur, basically everyone in my immediate family is some kind of entrepreneur and we're talking, you know, everything from people running the minute, mark to folks. That building and scaling technology companies. So it always felt like sort of part of my blood, but, but I also, from a very young age, got very intrigued by politics and policy as a lever to be able to effect change at scale. So, you know, when I, left California went outta Eastern college, I studied political science and spent the first part of my career down in DC working. the Obama administration and there, I worked on a range of issues, mostly at the intersection of national security and communications. So, you know, worked at the state department for a bit, you know, started off as someone getting important, people, coffee, ended up doing a lot of fun things, including, some speech writing for them. Secretary of state, a. When she left her whole staff left, I went over to, the white house, to work on master security issues again in communications. but also worked on a lot of issues related to entrepreneurship. And the idea there was president Obama. Was intrigued by the idea of being able to showcase American entrepreneurship as a tool for public diplomacy. And so, you know, historically the United States has done things like talk about, the importance of education as a tool for public diplomacy and building people to people ties with folks all over the world. And, he really wanted to usher in a stage where we started talking about entrepreneurship for the same reasons, because there's so many iconic American entrepreneurs. So I helped launch a budget initiatives that the United States, has related to basically being able to, build ties with entrepreneurs globally, and, and make that a tool for public diplomacy. And, and it was while I was doing that, that I, you know, I was like, wow, policy's amazing. And I have a front row seat to history, and a lot of opportunities to create change. but I I've had this sort of entrepreneurial itch. For a long time. And I think that I can maybe go be an effective public servant one day. If I go leave Washington, leave the beltway and go out and, and work in a bunch of these businesses and build businesses that are the kinds of businesses that we are trying to ferment from inside the walls, the way. Of the white house. And so I left, I went to graduate school and, and most people from Washington when they go to grad school, go to law school, I really deliberately made the decision into a business school and just start businesses. And so I started experimenting with a bunch of different startups and eventually started one called glow and glow is a, a creator common platform, particularly aimed at helping podcasters generate revenue. So, you know, one off raised a little bit of money, built a team. And, sold that at the beginning of last year. And, and as part of it, Negotiated relatively short off ramp from our choir about six months. And, and that was because I said, you know, I learned a lot in this journey. but I'm, I'm also excited to see what's next. And you know what? I've had two sort of very different elements in my career. Let me figure out what's next. And, that's when I started going down the rabbit hole of one, three. So, you know, I'd been crypto curious in 2017. I, I wasn't completely new the space, but. Obviously a ton changed, you know, between 2017 and 2021. And what got me really intrigued was the explosion of the NFT ecosystem and the idea that creators were able to generate unique revenue using web three. And I didn't really get that. Like I didn't, I didn't get the headlines. And so I started poking into it more and more. Because I had a crater economy company and I was so wondering, like, what did I miss? And so, you know, went down the rabbit hole and started poking around, you know, I had friends that started groups, and I said, you know, let me, let me spend a week focusing on the stuff. And then, you know, maybe in that week, I, I dial in my first, like mom started wallet. And then that became like the crypto month and, you know, played ultimate NFT, STR my NFT. And that became like a crypto six months. and as I started talking to more folks in space, I, I was like, wow. You know, someone who's really passionate about. Potential for change at scale, it seems like there's a lot of that right here in this industry right now. And maybe I can help affect some change in that industry. and so that was the point where I said, I wanna be in this space and, and the road to the public policy piece was, you sort of had the stance. Like I started chatting with some folks from all over the industry that I knew, including, some people, the salon foundation, and honestly over like a really late night conversation at a bar. I was like, wait, you guys don't have anyone working on public policy. And they said, no. And I said, I think you really should And then the conversation started from there and, and, you know, for me, it became a place where I could be, both entrepreneurial. I could be at the forefront in the new industry. That's changing a lot. And, and I also had opportunity not just to change, the direction of a new ministry, but also to change the direction of public policy, which is, is a pretty. Rare opportunity. So that's, that's my story. a little longwinded, but, but it's where I got to where I am. No, I think that's such a cool example of following just your passion at every stage from the white house to being an entrepreneur, and then, following down the web through rabbit hole. So thank you for sharing that you said, you mentioned that your current role at Solana. Foundation is that you are the policy lead. What does that mean? You kind of sounds like from your story, you created this role, you suggested to them, they should have someone in this role. Like what were you thinking is needed and what do you do day to day? Now? It's a great question. I'm still trying to figure out what my role is. So I would say about 20% of my time is spent, Working with people directly in the policy making space. So some of those might be, you know, folks on the hill, people on the administration, the actual people with the pen, writing the policy. A lot of that is also with people who are in the ecosystem, thinking about what policy should look like. So they might be at trade associations. They might be my counterparts that other organizations, they might be academics, but, but a lot of it's just. relationship building and figuring out how to, you know, play a, a helpful role in this coalition of people that are trying to figure out what it, what it means to build productive crypto policy. The rest of the time is spent, I think, you know, building the substance behind which, We can, Credly say here is why this stuff is important. and so, you know, from my vantage point, I'm really excited about crypto because I think it has a lot of really incredible implications for, Expanding economic pie, and really bringing new people into the economic ecosystem that didn't have access to it before. It has, amazing implications for things like data privacy and data portability, and, taking power away from big tech. And it has really awesome implications for some long term issues. Like climate change. And so what I spend that the rest of my time doing is, figuring out how to make sure that, that that's just not just talk is that we're honoring examples, of crypto demonstrating its. impact, let's say climate change where those don't exist, we're seeding new examples or building partnerships with organizations to help make sure that those ion, those examples bring to bear. And then, then I'm, you know, taking those stories and then figuring out how to feed them into that original 20%, which is my conversations with policymakers, and you know, folks across the industry to help them understand what, why this is such an interesting space. And then I left at a very important addition to that, which is, I would say, so it's like backward advice, right? If, if 20% is relationships, let's say another 50% is sort of this substance building. And the last 30% is I would say like, just, just thinking on what policy should be in, what I think productive policy would be in this space. So that means, doing a lot of research on. What we can do to help, find the middle ground on issues like consumer protection related to crypto, like anti-money laundering really trying to formulate an opinion on, on what I think and, and get smart about the issues so that we can be constructive with the rest of our time. Is the role that you have one that you see as kind prevalent or increasing within the industry? Like do other L one blockchains have foundations and have policy roles or is foundation unique in that there is a. Proliferation of folks who are working on crypto policy at large. and so if, if you talk to people in the industry, they'll say like, we we've seen these rooms grow from, you know, not that long ago, four or five years ago being maybe 50 people in a room to 500 people in a room, but it's still an incredibly small ecosystem. So the, the number of people in the space are growing, But it's, it's still, you know, I think small compared to what you might see for other industries and, particularly to do other, L ones have associated foundations with them. I think most L ones have some kind of foundation that exists that that's their role is to advocate on behalf of the growth that at one that they at least one, right, at least for an organization that, that exists to sort of help support the security and decentralization of that blockchain. And, I think a good chunk of them have folks working on policy. but it's, it's not a hundred percent. I, I can say what percentage of, of this foundations have policy folks. That's really helpful, James. You're up. Thanks Amira. It, it really seems like your history of policy and technology has led you where you are today. but maybe just pulling us back. Can you give us a bit of a lay of the land of crypto regulation in the us, and then with the recent crypto market turmoil, including the collapse of terror, how do you expect this environment to change if at all in, in the coming months? Sure. So I would say, you know, the, the tricky thing about crypto regulation in the us is, it's pretty lightweight today. There there's not really, legislation at all in the books or regulation that is specific to crypto because it's such a new industry. So what you have seen is, some measure of. Regulation reinforcement. So you might see the S E C for example, hand down rulings related to, a certain organization's practices that, that they, They think do not fit within current regulatory guidelines. But what we haven't seen yet is sort of a wholesale, comprehensive approach to crypto, particularly from a legislative process. And, that is changing really quickly. And so we're starting to see on the hill right now. A bunch of different efforts related to helping create some kind of framework for crypto regulations. So most recently, senators Luis and Gilland, a Senator from Wyoming, who's Republican and a Senator from New York as a Democrat, just put out. A, big comprehensive package of suggested, framework for crypto regulation, that is bipartisan and incredibly exciting to see it's not intended to pass this year. Like the whole idea that they put it out now is to get a bunch of different feedback. So that coming into next year, the next Congress, they'll be able to sort of start from scratch and be able to build something, that feels. Even more robust and, and more appropriate. that's one of, of several efforts. You're seeing a few efforts also in the house, related to crypto regulation, and then you'll from Senator and, Bozeman also next week. Another piece of legislation in the Senate that is specific to, CFTC spot markets and, and how those, relate to crypto regulation. So that's the lay of the land right now. Broadly speaking, I would say there's five issues, that, that most regulators are. Concerned about when it comes to crypto or trying to figure out sort of frameworks around? I would say, you know, thing one is stablecoin, and this is probably the top priority on, on most people's list. thing two is what, what body has jurisdiction over regulating digital assets? Is it the CFTC is the SCC, is someone else? so I would, I would sort of say. categorization of digital assets for regulation is number two. Number two, number three is exchanges. So what is the role of centralizing decent centralized exchanges and how do we, regulate that number four is consumer protection. So there's a lot of sort of, focus on, you know, the rise of, potential scams or customers not know what they're doing or tons of volatility. happening. And so there's a focus on how do we make sure that we can allow this ecosystem to thrive while still making sure consumers are aren't being dealt and then fair hand and number five has to do with, you know, anti money laundering and sanctions. So what is the role that this plays globally in national security? That's probably a very, very small consolidation of a range of issues related to crypto, but, I would say most things fall under one of those five buckets. that's a super helpful primer. And maybe just going a bit further, you know, not just on the issues, but are you also seeing folks on the hill get really excited about certain aspects of crypto? Yeah. You know, well, there's a huge range when you go to the hill, and talk to people at crypto there, there's definitely still a good chunk of people saying, like, I don't really get it. you know, I'm not quite sure what's good for, can you educate me? but I run into people With like decent frequency that our staffers and they're relatively young. And they'll say like, man, I'm a huge Salina stand. Like I love Salina. I love using my fancy wallet. and they just get really excited about it and are super deep. And so you're seeing, I think what's really interesting is that a ground of younger staffers who are Not just digital natives, but Kurt natives who are getting really stoked about this stuff, they understand it. And, and those insights are trickling up to their bosses and getting more and more people engaged. I love that. you know, have you seen any actual applications of web three being used in, government today to be, solving or, you know, to be part of major government initiatives right now? So the, the place that I think is it's probably used the most test of law enforcement. And, you know, if, if you talk to people from. Let's say the treasury department or the FBI who are charged with cutting down on financial crime fraud sanctions. these actually tend to be the people who are, I would say the most thoughtful on crypto and, and oftentimes in most crypto friendly, in government. And it's because they have been able to use blockchain to track down. Fraud as it happens or financial crimes as it happens. And so, you know, like you might be familiar with the silk road, which is, is the first, major illicit marketplace that used Bitcoin as a, as a means of transacting. The people who sort of, brought the purveyors of the software to justice. they will say that they could do that because of blockchain and because they could actually look at the transactions. And so the biggest use of crypto, I think right now is from a law enforcement perspective. because when people are using crypto to settle legal transactions or aid sanctions, it's, it's all trackable. and they'll tell you that. So that's probably the number one place that you're seeing at the usage. Makes makes a lot of sense arena. Yeah. I think that one is like, particularly, I've read a few, I forget where like wall street journal. Cause I think where they're actually. Tracking showing us how they've tracked one particular like terrorist group using blockchain information that they had to go layers deep on. But since it's all transparent, they were able to like uncover it's pretty amazing sleuthing. So Amira, I know, from our previous conversations, that part of what took you to work in government. And then in crypto was the idea of growing the size of the pie for everyone, and particularly a passion for the us being a fantastic place to grow that pie for everyone. And that crypto has the potential to do that. could you talk us through kind of what you see as the role that crypto can play in growing us GDP, particularly. Yeah, thanks for the question. So, you know, I think. There's a lot of people who talk about crypto as having a lot of really basic impacts on, on the economy. and you know, one of the sort of impacts that people spend a lot of time talking about is how crypto can play a role at banking, underbanked, giving them more access to financial services and making it on ramp much easier, giving access to credit. And I think that's an incredibly important aspect of crypto and, and I'm really excited to see that piece of the puzzle, take off and for us to see. Examples, but there's a second aspect to, you know, the role that crypto can have on not just the American economy, but the global economy, but I think is really undertold, which is it's potential to really just speed up the velocity of money because the rate at which transactions are being settled is so much quicker. So let's take wholesale trade for as an example, you know, right now, if you are someone who is in eCommerce, you're buying goods from, let's say China, they're coming across the ocean. you're putting them online and selling them and then having that transaction settle, on credit card, like, let's think about what the payment flow looks like. Right. So I order. These set of supplies from China, let's say I'm ordering bunch of sweatshirts. maybe I settle 50% before they put the sweatshirts on a ship and then 50% upon arrival. those that, that money has to go through over ACH, which often takes some time to settle on the other end. You're dealing with international banking. Stem. So you're probably figuring out like how to spend money abroad, which should take even more time. It could be more costly. and then, you know, you only have that first half being sent abroad. You wait for the shipping to come to you. you do that whole process again, you send the second half, then you go and put thoses online. People pay with credit card. and they receive their sweatshirt and the credit card bills resettles on the other end. And so, you know, that whole process of, you know, buying what you're taking, getting it shipped, you know, putting it online, all the money flows takes days and days and days to settle. Right. But if you are so a trans, working in. S D C so us backed or us pegged digital dollars, that rate of settlement goes so much quicker. So let's say that, you know, your ACH or wire transfer takes, let's say five days from the us to try to settle, your U S D C transfer settles. In a second, you know, it settles instantly. So suddenly you, as the buyer are able to get that, shipment on the ship, much quicker, it gets to your port much more quickly. The, Chinese manufacturer gets, you know, your transfer, your second transfer instantly so that they. Feedback back in investing in capital and, and manufacture even more. And then you, as the seller are able to put your merchandise online more quickly. And when your, buyer purchases at U C you get that money. In your account instantly, and you're not taking, you know, 2.9% off the top because of credit card fees. And so everyone in the equation is getting their money much more quickly, much more efficiently and for a lower cost. And so that means is that every person that equation has more money to be able to reinvest in manufacturing and be able to buy more goods, and being able to make the velocity of money move faster. And at the end of the day, I think, you know, from the perspective of someone who's informed policy, I, I want that to happen, right? Like I want Chinese manufacturers to be accepting payment in us, digital dollars, because that is amazing for U American dollar dominance, to be able to see global trade, take the next step to not just being settled mostly in dollars, but be settled in digital dollars more quickly. and so I, I think that's a part of the thesis that, that gets. Inform a policy a lot. And that I think it needs to be explored a lot more. That is so fascinating while you were talking. The feeling I kept having, or the phrase that was coming to mind was like capitalism, turbocharged, and kind of for better, or for worse that nowadays capitalism has, you know, its own like pros and cons. Or we talk about those pros and cons, but the us has been the forefront of this, you know, version of capitalism as we know it today. And it just feels like from. What you were talking about, this would take the like financial market efficiency and speed up, you know, five, 10 X. And what that could do would just open so many doors for capitalism as we know it. that's true. And I think what's important to note is like this isn't, you know, the traditional wall street trader again, I'm like super, super stoked about capitalism being awesome. what's happening in these transactions is that. More of the money is going to the merchants and less the middle men. And so you could think of it as capitalism turbocharge, or you could think of it as capitalism, where the people who are providing the value are getting a greater share of value being transferred, and don't have to worry as much about going through intermediaries to make it happen. So it's, you know, people have objections to that, right? Like the financial services industry, I. Sure doesn't love this happening, but you know, in my mind, I think what's exciting about the space is like the, the people who are actually doing the work are the ones earning more of the money and putting their pockets and they're getting it quicker. I'll give you another example that doesn't feel as like global wholesale, like capitalism movement at the speed of light type E and, and feel much more about how this impacts people and their pocketbook and, their own individual velocity of the dollar. one of the things that's possible with crypto is that if you're a wage worker, You can get paid at the end of your shift or, you know, sort of the end of the day. If you don't have to wait two weeks for the ACH to exit the company's bank account and enter your bank account, you can literally, if you're, if you're working three hours, in a single day, you can see. The digital dollar hit your account at the end of the day, and you can decide what to do with it, right? You can decide to offer SIA. You can decide to save it into a yield bearing account. but, but that's your money much more quickly, and you can decide to reinvest it in something, right? If you need to pay rent or you need to buy groceries, or you wanna make a different kind of purchase, you can spend that money immediately. So that really increases the velocity. Of the money on, on not just a global trade level, but on, on the level of individuals, for whom being able to have access to cash immediately makes a real difference. Yeah. I love that vision in order for that to happen. Crypto has to get into the hands of small merchants and small businesses. Like what do we need to do? And that is not where we are today. Like, what do we need to do better or differently as an industry to make that happen? So there there's two pieces of this equation that I think are really important and both have to do with focusing less on the merchant and more on the consumer. because well, When I've talked to merchants about crypto and, you know, explain the value prop. They're like I get to save on credit card fees. And so instantly that's awesome. You know, like I was, I was stuck at the airport last week and struck up a conversation with a guy who's anec Panera. And he went from sort of at the beginning of the conversation being crypto skepticals at the end of the conversation saying like, wait, this is amazing. Like, I don't, I don't wanna lose my money on credit card fees. Like how do I start using crypto To take transactions at my stores. so the merchants are often on board. When you explain the value prop that. the people who they need to convince though, are the consumers, right? The person who goes into the Panera to buy their sandwich for their coffee. And, and there's two big barriers for the consumers right now. One is the user experience just sucks. Like there's no getting around it, right? Like setting up your 12 worlds, the word seed phrase, you know, figuring out how to, On ramp and buy your first U SDC or whatever it is. Like, it's all really clunky and, and it's gonna get smoother. And a lot of people are thinking about it, but, but it's just hard. It's hard to on ramp. and it takes, I think, a personal investment of time, to do so. The second is that if. If I'm a consumer, the value prop just doesn't resonate with me the same way. Right? Like, I don't feel the pain of that credit card fee on the merchant end the same way. the merchant does, right? Like you might be able to say, actually these sayings for your new consumers in a longer term, you're gonna see lower prices of goods, but on a day to day level, I'm like, dude, just give me. 9 99 sandwich and, I'll get on my way and it really doesn't make a difference to me if I use my credit card because my credit card works just fine. It has before. So us as an industry, I think needed to put a lot of thought. To figuring out how we make the value perhaps to consumers really clear, we make it easy for them and we help figure out a way for them to either share reward or tell them why this makes difference the merchant or just so that helps them appreciate you. Why, why this is a change. That part of totally agree. That's like you put it really well there. I mean, our last question in this kind of segment for me is what would the us need to do to become the best home for web three companies? and maybe that could actually apply to any country, like where, where do countries need to impact either policy or do other things to really become that home? And why should they care? This is such a big question. It's, it's literally a multi hundred billion dollar question. And so I don't have all the answers, right. There's reams of policy around figuring out, you know, how you can construct. tax code, regulatory, favorability, participation in the government to help, you know, create a, an environment that is favorable to crypto. But, but I will say this. and, and this is, you know, from spending the first part of my career, cutting my teeth in communications is signaling is everything, you know, you can put together a comprehensive, strict, fair regulatory regime for crypto, and. Not just have this like leaky bucket approach where you're losing all these people abroad in the industry, purely by showing up as people who are leaders in the United States government and saying. We want you here. we want you here. We want you building here. We're gonna figure out how to make sure that you have the regulation. You need to be able to thrive. It's gonna protect consumers. It's gonna protect the, health of our financial system, but at the end of the day, we're gonna make it clear for you. We're gonna listen to you as we put together these policies, and we really want you to be building here in the United States. So what does that look like? You know, let's talk about cabinet secretaries showing up at NFT, Y C or consensus giving speeches, you know, maybe being able to like showcase their first NFTs, doing open round tables with industry at really senior levels. I think this is a case where the legislation and policy making is gonna take time. It's it's incredibly complex. No one has, I think, clear answers to all of this and, and we don't need to have all that clarity, but what we need is a government. Across the board that shows interest in the industry and, and shows up to talk to folks in the industry to truly understand what's happening. and, and in my mind that is, really crucial to making the United States a leader in this space. I think that's so true because with the regulatory environment, as it is right now, it feels like I wouldn't even. You know, the us has bad regulations or good. It there's just a lot of uncertainty. And in the lack of knowing, and it will take time to know what those regulations will be signaling is everything. And many of us who are starting companies in web three are looking to that signaling to decide kind of where we headquarter our companies and things like that. Yeah. You know, no one wants to be unwanted, right? Like, yeah, no one, I think, I think the vast majority of people who are builders that live in the states are. Passionate about this country, right? So the, you know, the salon blockchain was founded by, you know, Anatoly and RA and, and Roger is the son of immigrants. Anatoly immigrated here to the United States for Ukraine when he was eight years old, both are deeply passionate about building in the United States. and, and I think a lot of people in the space wanna do. so we just need to make sure that they don't feel unwelcome because the, the regulatory uncertainty sort of squeezes them out or, that they just can't figure out how to. Build what they want to here. So they decide they're gonna go somewhere else. and I think signaling goes a really long way there people people wanna contribute to, to this project. We just have to the, the American project. I mean, you know, but I think what we want government to do is to be able to demonstrate that, that they really, aren't interested in seeing the industry thrive here. I think we've talked a lot today about, you know, the potential of crypto and how it can transform everyday's lives. But if I think back to my friends in crypto, a lot of them don't really see government engagement as a good thing. How would you characterize the current attitudes of government and the crypto community towards each other? And you know, how would you advise each of them? So I think there's a lot of variation here. you know, in I'll comment specifically first on to the crypto community, towards government, I think for the most part, the range is somewhere between like apathy to, deep frustration. So, there's people who just like, don't pay attention, what's going on in government. And then there's a lot of folks or not a lot of folks, but there's a. A small, but vocal, subset of folks that I think do a lot of subtweeting and, frustration typing at, at government officials for, things that frustrate them. and I can see where people are coming from, right. they are trying to build something, being an entrepreneur is incredibly difficult. and, they believe in building it. Here and, just see sort of frustration every turn. Well, what I would tell people in the industry is the thing that has gone the furthest, in helping us government start to craft thoughtful, productive. regulation legislation so far is, is real substantive, thoughtful engage engagement. So, rage tweeting does not work, you know, like tweeting at Gary Ginsler or Elizabeth Warren and, You know, subverting them or staying insulting things like it really doesn't help. And, and there is some on the other end and like reading those tweets, right. It, it just demonizes the industry. What does help is being able to articulate your stories around what you're building, why this industry's been helpful for you and, you know, if not ideas for regulation, that would be positive, really specific examples of how regulation has made it really difficult for you to continue building what you're gonna build. Cause those are things that. Regulators and policy makers can take and incorporate when they're trying to craft, you know, thoughtful policy in this space. And so, so I would say to folks in the, in the industry who are interested in figuring out how to interact with government productive way, it it's really about, you know, articulating your story and, and helping people see why, what you're building is valuable, why it's valuable for our country and in specific spots where. regulation is coming your way because that's something that people can deal with. And, and on the form of, you know, what is the stance of the government towards folks in the industry? there's a huge range. The government is an apparatus with 3 million people. you know, there's 535, Congress people, the administration is giant. And so you'll see everything from. Huge huge bands to people who, have no idea what the space is. And so I think a lot of the work that has to be done also is just education being really open to helping folks in government, understanding what the space is, what it means to have a non wallet, what an NFT is like really being willing to, talk through the basics with people who, who just start looking to reach a certain level of educat. I really like how you flip the narrative there and, you know, let's actually engage in a productive way with government to help build this industry. Maybe, just to end on a positive note. What for you is the positive role government can play in building web three and crypto globally and in the us. If you look at, in, in the context of the United States, some of the most groundbreaking, pieces of industry, pieces of technology that have made giant difference. In, our lives and lives, people around the world and in build giant economies, they've been spearheaded by government. you know, people point to the space program often as the, the industry that led to the miniaturization of all kinds of technologies. You know, you, you can trace, cell phones and GPS. To the, the United states' investments in the space program in the military, you can trace the evolution of the internet to the United states' investments In network computing, you know, years ago. And I think the government can play a massive role in the growth of this industry of web three. And so what I hope it gets to the point is where the United States isn't just, Looking at the industry as a, you know, prospective policy maker, regulator, but really as a participant and investor, you know, what, what can the us government do to promote the growth of stablecoin globally? Because there's a, there's certainly a vested interest in being able to see this thing, expand out how can the United States help, you. Create, opportunities where we can track illicit actors, but also still maintain people's privacy on the blockchain. how United States invest in, the growth of some of these examples of where we can use, web three to pull forward investment in long term climate. goals and technologies. So yeah, I think there's a lot the United States can do cuz historically the government has been one of the, most prolific investors in technology, long term. And, and I hope that we can get to the point where, where that's really, how government is thinking about the future of the space. Amir. Thank you so much. I am personally really excited about a lot of the future that you're envisioning for the intersection of crypto and government. thank you so much for sharing all these unique insights and we're excited to have you back sometime. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the chance to, to wax policy always.