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The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast is a deep dive into what 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing mean for prosthetics and orthotics. We’re Brent and Joris both passionate about 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing. We’re on a journey together to explore the digitization of prostheses and orthoses together. Join us! Have a question, suggestion or guest for us? Reach out. Or have a listen to the podcast here. The Prosthetic and Orthotic field is experiencing a revolution where manufacturing is being digitized. 3D scanning, CAD software, machine learning, automation software, apps, the internet, new materials and Additive Manufacturing are all impactful in and of themselves. These developments are now, in concert, collectively reshaping orthotics and prosthetics right now. We want to be on the cutting edge of these developments and understand them as they happen. We’ve decided to do a podcast to learn, understand and explore the revolution in prosthetics and orthotics.
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
Transformative Healthcare Solutions: 3D Printing Innovations with Shiden Yohannes
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In this episode, we’re joined by Shiden Yohannes, whose journey from industrial engineering to a leadership role at Formlabs highlights the impact of technology in healthcare. Shiden discusses the rapid evolution of 3D printing, especially during the pandemic, where it played a key role in addressing healthcare shortages. He explains the advantages of an open ecosystem in 3D printing, focusing on orthotics and prosthetics, and highlights the impact of materials like Nylon 12 Tough and polypropylene, which are making medical devices more efficient and cost-effective to produce.
Shiden’s insights show how 3D printing can streamline manufacturing processes and reduce costs, making advanced medical solutions more accessible. The conversation also highlights the spirit of global collaboration in the orthotics and prosthetics field. Shiden shares a story of professionals uniting across borders to help a patient named Sydney, showing how creativity and teamwork can overcome barriers in healthcare.
As the episode concludes, we thank Shiden for his contributions and invite listeners to join us on LinkedIn to continue the discussion. Don’t miss this kickoff to our 10th season, and if the episode resonates with you, please leave us a review.
Special thanks to Advanced 3D for sponsoring this episode.
Prosthetics and Orthotics
Speaker 1Welcome to Season 9 of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast.
Speaker 2This is where we chat with experts in the field, patients who use these devices, physical therapists and the vendors who make it all happen. Our goal.
Speaker 1To share stories, tips and insights that ultimately help our patients get the best possible outcomes.
Speaker 2Tune in and join the conversation. We are thrilled you are here and hope it is the highlight of your day. I do have a question for you, and you know, twitter can be a dumpster fire some some sometimes.
Speaker 3But uh, in valencia has there been a lot of rain. Oh my goodness, it was, it was. It's very shocking. We're in it, we're in the old part of the city. It's been, uh, continuously inhabited for like 5 000 years of the high groundland site and we're okay, and we just kind of barely even noticed it was like a storm, but it wasn't like you know, it wasn't like we weren't really super worried. But around us there's, uh, you know a whole, you know a lot of fields, a lot of vineyards, a lot of the whole.
Speaker 3Uh, orange harvest has been swept away and a lot of villages have been really badly impacted. One of my friends, like, he, moved into his house two weeks ago and it got completely destroyed. And uh, one of another friend of mine, uh, her colleague is just missing. They have no idea where that person is and now they, they think that a million, uh like, uh, yeah, the, the, the amount of damage is huge and there's at least a hundred people that have passed away and there's going to. It's like a bunch of people that were on the road driving their cars and then a year's worth of rain in five minutes. We're talking like 180 liters per square meter or somewhere, 400 liters per square meter in a five-minute period. It was completely crazy. So it's very, very shocking and everybody's here is a bit kind of like I don't know. It's a bit strange because we didn't really notice it even.
Speaker 2And then all of a sudden, the next day you see all these pictures, like what you know? It's a really strange time, really strange time. Yeah, well, and I don't know that, like like I haven't seen it anywhere else other than that and, and to be honest with you, the the pictures look like they were photoshopped the damage, the stacks of cars and all that stuff, and I was like, man, I gotta ask yours about that no, it was basically like it hasn't, like last year didn't rain for eight months, and then now, all of a sudden, like the earth, kind of bone drying not used to that and just like, yeah, a year's worth of rain in five minutes.
Speaker 3It's just a completely crazy event. And something similar happened in minorca majorca, like last year, and it happens around here, but no one's really kind of knows what to do. It's not like you know, florida, where it's like, oh, it's hurricane season, let's board up the house and go to grandma's house or something. You know. Nobody here's like used to this. So everybody was just and the government didn't warn people properly. So everybody was just like, okay, I guess I'll go to work or I guess I'll go to madrid or whatever. And then, yeah, they got caught out in the open. It was really tragic and, yeah, a lot of livelihoods are going to be very negatively impacted by this. Um, but anyway, but um, how about you yourself, man? You just got back from, from uh from guatemala and from two trips to boston.
Speaker 2Crazy dude, uh, crazy I was going to guatemala guatemala was very cool, um, so one of the things that, uh, you know, I was super excited about and that is something that you've encouraged me along the way and I hope to you know, share more about this, and our and our guests will probably have some things to think about this as well, or say about this, and that is, um, this idea of centralized um production. Uh, decentralized or centralized design, decentralized production. So I intentionally handcuffed myself on this trip, so I did not take any of my design tools. I literally had my computer, my phone, with ComScan and that was it. And I had one specific patient that I knew that I was going to need something for, and I ended up using it for a couple other things, but it was a young pediatric patient. She's probably four years old or so, missing one arm and both legs, and I scanned with the ComScan app. I sent those files to Katie, who we've had on from Advanced 3D While I continued to see patients and all that stuff. She was designing them.
Speaker 2And then I have two bamboo printers, fdm printers, down in Guatemala now, and so, while I was continuing to see patients, I put those files on the printers, printed overnight, and I had two prostheses for this little girl in the morning, and I just, I truly believe that it's a great way to start and I think it takes all the excuses away from clinicians saying, well, I don't know how to design.
Speaker 2Well, you know how to scan and you know how to fit, and you may have a very inexpensive 3D printer in your facility so you can 3D print because somebody else can take care of the design. And we've done something very similar to this with Katie from Design to Live in Latvia, and now she's been learning to design, she has free form and all that, and so she's becoming more and more independent. But she may have something, or she gets a bunch of patients in a row and she said, hey, can you help us out? And so we'll help her out and send her files back and she uses the printer of her choice and off to the races. So I know you've been trying to hammer that home to me, yoris, and I'm finally coming around I love it.
Speaker 3It is like, think about it economically. The model is you are trained to be with patients and you should be diagnosing and going doing stuff with patients and working with them and establishing that relationship and then making sure you listen to, you know what the pain points are, literally and figuratively. I think it just makes so much more sense. And then the design you know you design the stuff when you really need it. When it's got something completely crazy you've never encountered before, that's like completely like head-scratchingly crazy. Then okay, yeah, maybe you sit down then, but otherwise it just makes so much sense to just, you know, design and fabricate remotely and I think that's going to really change your industry, I think.
Speaker 2Yeah, oh, 100%, and I think it's the gateway right. So you have to have some skill to scan. But I mean, most people have an iPhone because our electronic medical records a lot of people use iOS for that. So many people have an iPhone. So you already have a scanner and you know how to fit, and you might have gone onto a website and bought the Halloween special for $300 for a FDM printer and it works and I think it's great and I think the materials are there. You know, two years ago we didn't have really great materials that really adhered well, especially on the Z layer, but specifically with TPU. Now you definitely get it.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's cool. And did you bring other people with you to Guatemala or did you go by yourself?
Speaker 2So I had one other clinician, audrey Larson, who's been this was actually, I think, third or fourth time back, so she went and then we just really had a small team. There's another couple that goes ahead of us to make sure all the stuff is working in the lab, and then my family went. So Meredith takes care of all the logistical stuff patients getting patients back and then my middle son pitches in with some fabrication and my daughter she loves people and so she hangs out with all the patients, hugs, smiles, gets some stuff. It's, it's really great. So it's, it's a neat thing awesome.
Speaker 3I'm really so happy you do that. I think it's really really amazing. I think and I think it's really amazing for these people, but also, I think, maybe for yourself as well it'd be really, really wonderful way to to keep helping out. I like the fact that you you have been doing this for years as well. This has been yes, it has been a huge investment of time, but I think you know, in seeing these people grow up and seeing these people kind of maybe expand their horizons or be able to do more work and do more things and stuff like that maybe get families, I think that'd be an immensely rewarding experience yeah, so we've had a couple firsts of on this trip.
Speaker 2So I have a patient that I've been following for a long time. She actually wasn't able to make it because she had her first kid just a little bit ago, so that's kind of wild. It's like you know, I've just been seeing them for so long. And then I've got another kiddo that I've been seeing. He was from the very first clinic in 2006. Then I've got another kiddo that I've been seeing. He was from the very first clinic in 2006. He is 21 now because, yeah, we've been going there for 18 years and he has two more years of law school and he's missing all four extremities, so both arms and both legs, and so we're two years away from having a lawyer come into the fold, and so to me that's just exciting. You talk about changing the family tree. That's what does it.
Speaker 3That's awesome, dude. That's super awesome. It's so amazing that you do that stuff. So, all right, oh yeah, we have a long-suffering guest. Oh, my goodness, yes, the most patient person in the world. Who is this?
Speaker 2So well, just a little bit of background. We have, and I'm super excited about this guest, shiden Yohannes from Formlabs. So for those that do not follow Shiden on LinkedIn, please do so because he posts a lot of great stuff and the way that I would describe him is very much a connector, networker and a visionary with what is possible with 3D printing, and I know you and I, yours have talked recently because of the newest news with Formlabs, with them doing their larger volume resin printer as well as opening up their SLS system to some outside powders and such. I think they are really on to something. So hardware is hard, software is not so bad, but it seems like they're getting the combination of hardware, software and materials and allowing their users now to feel more creative because they have opened up this ecosystem. So I'm really excited to talk about all that.
Speaker 4Thank you so much, Brent, for having me, and also Joris, thank you for having me on the podcast. It's the first time that I'm having a podcast, but I'm super eager to talk about all that. Thank you so much, Brent, for having me, and also yours. Thank you for having me on the podcast. It's the first time that I'm having a podcast, but I'm super eager to talk with you and deep dive about the O&P industry and what's possible with additive manufacturing.
Advanced 3D Printing Applications in Healthcare
Speaker 3Well, that's super cool man. Well welcome, welcome here, ashton. First off, how did you get involved with 3D printing?
Speaker 4What point in your life did you encounter the technology? I would say when I studied industrial engineering, my heavy focus was actually in injection molding, but somehow, with all these projects that you can choose by yourself, I decided that all of my projects that I can do by myself are 3D printed, focused. And then I really realized real quick that 3D printing is something really unique, especially if it comes to super incredible designs focused. And then I really realized real quick that 3d printing is something really unique, especially if it comes to, yeah, super incredible designs that are not possible to do with any kind of other technologies. And yeah, there was the moment, I would say um 10 years ago, where I felt in love with 3d printing and since then couldn't stop and almost printing every day that's cool.
Speaker 3And how did you? It was difficult for you to find something because you to combine your studies with with additive. Did you just get lucky? Do you think, or did you was it difficult for you to find something to combine your studies with additives? Did you just get lucky? Do you think? Or did you really seek out and say I need to work for an additive company? I really really need to work in that?
Speaker 4industry. No, I think after my industrial engineering bachelor, I was still thinking that deep printing is really something that has a lot of benefits, but I need to be a niche expert. And a niche expert doesn't mean it's now as you are. For example, I'm not as an expert in the orthotic and prosthetic field. Overall I would say 100% as you are, but overall I would say I have a good feeling for all of the industries within medical and 3D printing. So, to get back to my point, what I did after my industrial engineering is medical engineering with the focus on 3D printing and a majority and I think that focus back in the combination with COVID when supply chain stopped, for example, got Formlabs definitely invest more into healthcare and they continue to invest more into healthcare. That's the reason why I'm in Formlabs at a 3D printing manufacturer and, as I said, it is my passion and I'm happy to print a lot and discuss some of my prints and your prints in this podcast. To print a lot and, yeah, discuss some of my prints and your prints in this podcast.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think what Formlabs is doing like. So Formlabs for the in-initiate, because like is what was the original kind of pro desktop company? They started with a VAT polymerization machine, desktop machine which everything was locked down, everything the software, the materials, everything. And their idea was like, hey, we control this ecosystem and we control all the tools and everything works. And then that's what you want. And if you want to do open source, crazy stuff, go go over there, go play over there. And that's what, what kind of they did. Then they had a. They started to end up out of a fusion system, the fuse, uh, which got, which has gotten better over time. And now all of a sudden, yeah, after a couple, since a couple weeks ago, they're opening up everything. So they allow you to, you know, have your own materials, they allow you to maybe even have buy materials in bulk, they allow you to have much more settings and stuff and much more open, much more kind of manufacturing ready. So I think this is a very exciting time for you guys right.
Speaker 4So definitely If we so definitely, if we are looking right now into the M industry. It's a challenging industry and we need to compete Overall, we, as PharmLabs, we are doing good, really good, in my own opinion. But to be good and to stay good, we need to be customer-centric, focused and listen to them and, of course, one of the requirements is something to have open.
Speaker 3It was requested already years ago by thousands of people and it was something, uh, that needed to be done, I guess and I think, like for a lot of people, the first thing they really think of your technology is the fuse, like this powder fusion technology. That's the thing that would most likely appeal to a lot of orthotics and prosthetics people like I mean and orthoses, I guess, is an obvious one like how do you see the Fuse helping people out in that sense?
Speaker 4I mean, there are a lot of applications that you can do, but the only thing that you need to make sure is to find the right application and I wouldn't right now just set it or focus on the Fuse or just say Fuse. I would also include the SLA technology because this also offers a lot of application into the OMP industry, because this also offers a lot of application into the OMP industry. But let's say, for example, what do both of these applications offer? The mold creation. Mold creation is definitely something interesting in the OMP industry. It can be, for example, silicon molding, but it can be also injecting thermoplasts with molds that need to resist, for example, higher temperature. The benefit of the SLA technology compared to SLS in creating molds is that the accuracy is way higher. That means the high surface quality of your SLA print. So resin-based print is ensuring that you get high qualities, and the quality is so high that you can even put into the mold, for example, a skin texture, and you will see in your silicon injected part at the end, the end use part, the skin texture that you applied on the surface of the mold. Then another application could be, for example, I would say but that's a big difference between SLA and SLS, for example, that I need to make also sure. In my own opinion, I think SLS can be used for the lower as well as the upper extremities, but for SLA I would rather recommend just to do the upper extremities. For the lower extremities this can be super challenging.
Speaker 4I did a couple of prints, for example, an infinitive prosthetic TT socket. It was really, really hard. I tested all our materials TUF 2000, TUF 1500. To make an infinitive socket with SLA is currently not possible. But on the SLS side, with more strong functional parts, you can even do, yeah, prosthetic TT sockets, for example. The only limitation that you need to keep in mind right now, currently with the Formlabs, is the build volume that we have with Diffuse One Plus. So you need to see how many patient cases do you have that you can fit into this build chamber and find a business case, For example, okay, you might have outsourced all of your TT sockets for like 350. So how much can I do it in-house and what would be the gap? How much do I really save? And that, yeah, could be something to think about. And that, yeah, could be something to think about.
Speaker 4Then, another aspect about both technologies I think that a lot of people are underestimating, but I see within, especially trade shows or when I'm visiting customers, spare parts production. The spare parts production is really high. So it's about tiny parts for I don't know, connecting to like to connect, connect joints, for example, or other parts. There are a lot of tiny functional parts within a device that were outsourced but could be insourced instead of outsourced, and spare parts is definitely something that I see a huge impact. It might be with the SLA side, for example, that it's a flame-resistant material that is required or ESD-safe material that is required, but it can also be on the SLS side, for example, polypropylene or nylon-11 or other material that has a high impact resistance and can be used for such applications or spare parts.
Speaker 4Then let me also bring some. I mean the applications are endless. You can see I can talk for days. I think prototyping is definitely something important. The medical industry is bringing a lot of applications not a lot of applications, a lot of products into the market. We have a product lifecycle overall in the medical industry about two to three years, and that means we need fast iterations, we need innovation and that's where the deep printing also helps.
Speaker 2So I think that's pretty interesting and with your background. So one of the things that I am definitely lacking in is the knowledge on the injection molding. But there are so many applications, especially with your SLA stuff for that, and I've seen some people specifically use that for doing high detail stuff, especially like partial fingers, adding fingertips, that sort of thing, or even a lot of times with partial fingers. One of the things that people don't think about is you can't use a touchscreen a lot of times. So some people are creating these molds to do a capacitive fingertip that they'll injection mold once it's in a mold. So can you speak a little bit to the injection molding side of things and how it may or may not be used in the prosthetic industry? It?
Speaker 4may or may not be used in the prosthetic industry. Yeah, sure. So where should we start? Maybe we can start with thermoplasts. So thermoplasts in most cases, in that kind of sense, you need to have a material that has a certain kind of heat resistance. And if it comes to heat resistance, we have materials that have a heat resistance up to 250 degrees or even higher. So it really depends on what kind of material you inject and what is the temperature that it is injected in. But overall, what we see is that we have based on the temperature.
Speaker 4Let's say, if you inject something, let's say RBS for example, material it could sustain, I would say, between 200 shots, and that's something that we see. So we see more. It is really depending on the material. I cannot really set it up to one material, but I would say the molds can be used from maybe one to a thousand shots, and that's what we see. And then we got silicon molds. For silicon molds, I mean, in most cases our clients use the standard clear resin, for example, or any kind of other standard resin, because it's the cheapest resin in our portfolio. And then what they use would be like a separator medium in between the silicon and the mold to just peel off the silicon afterwards after it's cured.
Global Collaboration in Prosthetics Development
Speaker 2Wow, yeah, I love that and I'd like to. So one of the things and you mentioned it, shiden is the build volume of the Fuse. Yes, it is smaller. However, one of the things that I've found most recently, especially dealing with some of the smaller FDM printers, is just because it's smaller doesn't mean you don't have, you can't be creative, and so I think that's one of the interesting things, and I and I do think that the orthotic and prosthetic industry and the folks in it are some of the most creative people in in the world when it comes to one-off prototype type of things. But, um, can you share a little bit about the creativity that you've seen with people using a smaller build volume, or even what you envision, how something could be done even though there is a smaller build volume?
Speaker 4Definitely starting with the right application and with the application in mind, I would say so how do people ultisize our build volume currently finding the right application? So this could be, for example, rigid insole shells. Rigid insole shells they fit, you can pack them quite well, the cost per part can be quite lucrative and the device itself is something that is not too big, where also, yeah, the cost itself makes sense. So either way you find parts that are, I would say, fist size large, if that makes sense, because that, either way you find parts that are, I would say, fist size large, if that makes sense, because that is my ground rule, for really make SLS a lot more cost beneficial compared to SLA.
Speaker 4Yeah, but you're seeing it sounds like a lot of assembly type of things too, right, right, so some modularity yeah, definitely, and that's the beauty what I that I see with all the technicians, because we are the ones that are just bringing the hardware to the market or the tool that can, yeah, make the innovators bring their ideas to life, but, at the end of the day, our customers so the cpos, for examples they are the ones that are the specialists.
Speaker 4They have all the knowledge, they understand exactly what the patient need and, based off the patient need, devices are coming out that I've never seen, but they perform better than, yeah, anything else, I would say, or they need to. They are showing in clinical research that it's bringing us steps forward, and that that's, I think, is the most important part that we need to follow up. That's also something that I need to make sure. We need to make sure to always follow the regulations. So make sure that the device that you produced is properly designed, properly tested and sustaining the forces that it gets applied to. And then, on the other side, I understand the technology, and if you understand the technology and especially the material, the possibilities are endless.
Speaker 2Well, and I think that's where I really appreciate what you've done as far as for the education for the field is like you've inspired creativity as far as, hey, these are some of the things that you can do, but just because you can do them doesn't mean you should do them. I'm just showing you what is possible, and you're hoping to inspire other clinicians to create clinically relevant pieces that are safe for patients and such, because the whole idea is it's not on the manufacturer to create these pieces, it's really on the clinician. So I love that you do that. And can you speak a little bit to I know people have been following it for a while this, the partial foot that you've done for is it Sydney and kind?
Speaker 4of that journey.
Speaker 4Sure, it was a wonderful journey and it showed me how strong, connected and how heartfelt, I would say also, the OMP industry is. So you need to imagine, I have a coworker which is called Marissa, and Marissa came to me and she was like hey, sheedan, I have a friend, sydney, and she lost her forefoot and she would like to talk to you. And now I told her at the beginning hey, I'm a medical engineer, but that doesn't mean that I'm a CPO, so I could design something. Yes, 100% sure, but I'm not Brent, for example. So Brent is doing this day in, day out. He understands exactly what is needed for the patient.
Speaker 4So the little, tiny details that you understand about this whole device makes the device itself the good device. So what I want to say about it is I told her hey, I cannot do it, but let's reach out. What I can offer you is my LinkedIn network and reach out to the O&P industry and make a video of your partial foot. So what she had is cancer in the forefoot, clear sarcoma, and so, to put it in a nutshell, she came over, I scanned her, I made an interview, a short video with her, which was about 60 seconds I guess, uploaded the scans to LinkedIn or offered it to anyone who wants to have them, showed them the whole case and what happened is, within 24 hours we had several people reaching out to me offering their help for free, sending in designs. I think I had the first design in less than 24 hours. So also again, thank you, artur.
Speaker 4It is amazing to see what happened, like what actually just happened through the internet. You need to imagine I'm reaching out from Germany. The customer or the patient is coming in Germany to our office uploading it into the internet. We got people in Nigeria, people in New Zealand, people in Canada, people in USA and more cities working on that prosthetic device, from different locations all over the world. Never seen the patient.
Speaker 4And, yeah, we had also already the first visit from Sidney after the whole first design iteration and testing. So what I want to say about it is we had all the designs getting in, we printed them, we called Sidney, sydney came over. We had some challenges with getting the prosthetics on, but that's, I think, also normal in the prosthetic field, especially if you're not, for example, I'm not doing this day in and day out, so I need some design iteration and design adjustments, but the beauty about the story is that we are now working on making a lessons learned video from the iterations that we are the lessons learned that we are getting right now with this case and that I think is beneficial for the industry because it shows you exactly. Okay, hey, we printed this in material X, material Y, material Z, and that happened with the material, and I think that that could be super beneficial.
Speaker 2I know yours is just drooling. He, he thinks this is the greatest thing ever and he's just going to want more information. Archie, yours, I just had to jump. I just had to jump the gun just to, just to, just to say that, no, I didn't want to.
Speaker 3Yeah, oh, I know yeah.
Speaker 2I think it speaks to a global network and the world becoming more flat through just being able to share files back and forth and the different perspectives, uh yeah, so go for it. I. I just knew that yours, you, that mute button was going to come off, so I had to jump in real quick no, no, I think.
Speaker 3But I think also the other point is that also you mentioned covet before we saw a lot of this ability in this matching network that people say I need mass, I can make masks and all that kind of stuff. So it's about like this platform that the intern is that is able to match the right abilities with the right needs. I think people, just like you, know that's it's a complete normal thing, but it's also quite spectacular if it actually works, uh. So I think that's that's a really powerful thing that we could do a lot more. And then we can have a lot more kind of codified ways of of combining what people want to do and what, what you know, some volunteer capacity or some skill, and combine that with with a specific need. Let's say so there rather than there's being an isolated incident.
Speaker 2I would love it for this to happen like thousands and thousands of times a day yeah and well, and I think to that point I mean I think what I would, what I would love, nothing more uh to do, and I don't know necessarily how to do it. I have my kind of network of people that I lean on, that I would trust with the design side of things, but I'd love to develop this, this team of people, on a on a global scale, so that is um able to pitch in, you know. So, like hey, are you okay taking a look at, you know, two cases a month or whatever, and they never have to leave the comfort of their own home behind their computer or whatever, but they're helping and you know. Obviously that's the non-profit side, but there is an opportunity, I believe, on the for-profit side. I mean yours.
Speaker 2You've always said, hey, we should do something in Costa Rica or something like that, where you have some of the centralized design, where you have a lot of skill and knowledge, tribal knowledge around CAD, especially like with the Invisalign whole thing in Costa Rica. And what I found is that there's a massive tribe in Europe that is are super good grasshopper, rhino and CAD stuff, parametric modeling, even you know you start taking a look at some of the software programs that are available, so like the grasshopper Rhino, and then there's a lot of people that have that skill specifically in Spain. Spain has a some great technical schools that do architectural stuff. Parametrically, that, I think, fits really well into our field. So being able to get some of those people together, I think would be amazing.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think, a platform that leverages that either from a commercial side as well, because you think of, like, imagine just a jaw being broken up into 20 different pieces. I'm a project manager. I get paid like 10 bucks to manage this, right, but it's not a lot if I live in New York, but if I'm in Spain it's kind of okay actually, and if I'm in Portugal it's better, and if I'm in Costa Rica it's probably also about the same actually, but in Argentina right now that would be really nice money. And then you just split up that job into lots of different pieces and lots of different people all over the world combine and leverage their specific expertise with the lowest amount of time for them with the lowest amount of time for them.
Speaker 3I think that to me, is a super exciting, you know, nonprofit but also a business kind of thing to leverage all that attention and the digital networks you know, in a very, very structural way Anyway. But I think that's maybe we should talk about that in a separate episode, just like talking about that potential, because I think we keep coming back to that idea. I think that Shiden's example here is really really wonderful of this doing this, but I'm interested also a little bit in Shiden mentioned a lot of powder bit, fusion stuff, a lot of different materials. Let's just talk a little bit about these materials. What are the materials that you would think are the most relevant for the OMP industry, let's say, and for what kind of parts?
Comparing 3D Printing Material Options
Speaker 4Sure, so maybe we can start. Yeah, let's start with the sls selective phasing centering. So I would um. Never, I would never, never, ever um suggest people to use nylon 12 for or pa 12 um for lower extremity devices. So if you say you have a business, for example, where maybe just upper extremities are needed and you want to make upper extremity devices that can be done in any other kind of technology with those lattices, structures and cool designs, then you might go maybe with nylon 12. If you do designs that need to have or resist load bearing, then you rather tend to take rather materials like nylon 11, so PA 11 or polypropylene.
Speaker 4What we also got right now out since one and a half weeks is nylon 12 tough. I need to be honest with you, so I need to make more tests with nylon 12 tough related to some OMP devices. But I guess it's a good post for next week to print something out, test it and share the results directly on LinkedIn with everybody who's in the network. Okay, and then we got Nylon 12, and if Nylon 12 just for the upper extremities and also validate the design, make sure it's really working with nylon 12. If it's more for the lower extremities, rather nylon 11 or polypropylene, or maybe I don't know yet nylon 12 tough, and then a flexible material. The only flexible material that we have right now available on the SLS side is Tip U 90A, so with a shore hardness of 90. So for liners, for example, it could be a great opportunity. And then we have also nylon-11 carbon-filled and nylon-12 glass-filled, but they are less used in the O&P industry.
Speaker 3And let's talk also a little bit about, like you know. So one thing that seems super promising is on the SLS side, the silico and these elastomeric properties you know for liners, for I don't know, all sorts of little cushioning things. Have you been doing a lot of experimentation with that kind of stuff?
Speaker 4I need to do it more, so I'm I'm really more in the mold making, so I would say I'd rather use, really inject, two components silicon and use that at the final device and printing with silicon 48. I use silicon 48 just for the most prototypes or pads. It's like soft pads but nothing other than that, so not a silicon. For example, let's say, a thumb brace.
Speaker 3And I like this one. I mean, you've already talked a little bit about this molding processes because I think I think a lot, a lot of people realize how well this is actually super inexpensive as well. Right, because there's a couple different things you can do, like a poly earthane kind of thing or two component or whatever that kind of thing, but the part cost is super duper low right?
Speaker 4yeah, of course it depends on the mold size, but it will definitely be way faster in-house. So, instead of waiting four or five weeks until you get the mold, for example, or even months, several months, you will have it within the next day or within the same day with the form for l right now, because a average large print takes just six hours and a large print. I'm from europe, so I need to say in millimeters, but we got an x 100 at 353 millimeters and y, we got 196 and then set at 350 and that, uh, it is large. I would say. Of course there's not a complete torso. Uh, that could fit in, but for the most applications it would already be. Yeah, big enough, I would say.
Speaker 4And the molds that you can get out of this is also already large. So, yeah, the same day you can get out of this is also already large. So, yeah, the same day, you can get out the molds the same day, and they are way cheaper. So they are molds that may cost you $30, $40, $50, or maybe $150, depending on the size, but it's still cheaper than outsourcing.
Speaker 3And another thing that we saw before the formula started to do more arrays or collections of printers with depowdering or part removal things and stuff like that. And do you see that really happening that people are buying, I know, in hearing aids and stuff it is happening, but people are buying 50 of these things and starting to make parts on a really, really large scale.
Speaker 4Yeah, and large scale depends. I would say they start with one, two machines to get familiar and right now the majority of people that I work closely with they are at six, seven, so it's not like that they have 50 machines, 60 machines, but with every new application that they find, with every new business case that is there for them, they just add on the printer.
Speaker 4And that's, for example, also something great. We can do it as an example. So imagine I have my nylon 12. Let's say I have my Fuse ecosystem set up with polypropylene and I can produce, let's say, 10 braces per day. And if I want to have another machine, you just pay additionally $20,000 to get an extra SLS machine and you don't need to buy the SIFT machine, the BLAST machine on top, because you can already use the current system and just need to add another printer to have a higher throughput but also have redundancy, because now you have two machines and that's also important to have redundancy in mind.
Speaker 2I want you to talk a little bit, too, about the, and I forget what you call it, but it's the shiny surface finish that you guys have as far as in your. Is it the blast? Yeah, the fuse blast. So the fuse blast.
Speaker 4Yeah, it's a media blaster, so you can usually media blast, for example, with glass media or plastic beads, and if you're looking into such machines for post-processing SLS parts, they can also cost six figures. So there are machines on the market that cost six figures that can clean and polish at the same time, and what we did is, of course, yeah, making, um, yeah, challenging the market. So we have a professional machine right now out in the market that can clean and blast, and especially polypropylene. The parts that are coming out blasted or polished, I mean from polypropylene, they look amazing and, uh, that's, yeah, a little bit over ten thousand dollars wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, and and I think that's just a wide open area, but kudos to you. Can you? Can you go over? Okay, so if somebody wants to get involved with you know form labs in the machine. Can you talk a little bit about the ecosystem If you add a printer? Is there a way, is there a hub and forgive me for not knowing this that you can keep track of all these printers as you add them? Has Formlabs done all that side?
Speaker 4What we have is Dashboard. Dashboard is included or is also connected or can be opened from Preform. Preform is our 3D slicer, and what Dashboard? Dashboard is included or is also connected or can be opened from Preform. Preform is our three slicer, and what Dashboard does is actually it gives you a production overview of all the printers that you have available and connected to Dashboard. So it gives you a timeline of all the printers that are available, currently or printing or not printing. It shows you how long it prints, who operated on the printer, which firmware is on the printer, which material, which batch this material is from.
Speaker 4When was the material the last time used? It really gives you so much information. It can also be important if it comes to traceability. So definitely have a look at Formula 3 dashboard and you can see what it can do. It offers so much and I'm a little bit nervous, to be honest with you. Today's my first podcast, so I might forget a lot of benefits of Dashboard. But material consumption if a material is running low and you need to get, for example, new material, it might warn you that you just have 20 kilograms on stock and you are running low. Maybe in a couple of weeks or days, depending on your capacity. So there's a lot of benefits the dashboard brings definitely.
Speaker 2I think that's great. I mean, it sounds like you guys have thought about a lot and thought about even the modularity and production, right. So we're not just talking about parts, but hey, if you've got an SLS machine and an SLA machine being able to keep track of that and already have the groundwork for other things that are potentially coming down the pike.
Speaker 4Yeah, definitely, it's in the same timeline. I can see the SLA machines next to my SLS machines and it's easy to overview all the prints.
Speaker 3And then one more question. I think one thing I think that if you were going to get everybody just wants to get a first printer. Let's say, I just want to have a simple shop, not a lot of people want to get a first printer. They're always going to go to FDM because it's just simpler right and it's less expensive. And for those people to step up to kind of MJF system, it's kind of that's a big leap, you know financially also a lot of floor space, all that kind of stuff. But also a powder refusion seems a lot of times like it's really messy. There's powder everywhere. You have to vacuum everywhere. How hard is it to adopt if I have nothing? I have a semi-office environment and I'm going to the powder refusion. If I got all of your stuff, how do you guys make sure that it isn't super messy and it's kind of easy to do?
Speaker 4I mean all the machines are built in a way to make it especially for the operator of the machine as easy as possible. And as easy as possible means also on the same side that we need to make sure that the operator feels comfortable with operating the machine, so we make them also as safe as possible. We got a lot of consumables to ensure that the contamination within a power environment can be lowered. For example, in my own opinion, I think the printer itself is not the biggest contamination problem of powder. If we want to tackle something that might be the biggest contamination of powder, it might be the sifter, so the post-processing station where you actually depowder the powder cake to get the loose parts inside that powder cake out if it makes sense. But also over there we have a new consumable, for example since two weeks out, which is the fused sift glove box which made it completely sealed from the outside. So you go in with your hands with the gloves that are included into it and then there's no contamination into that perspective, so it can be easy controlled.
Speaker 3Super cool. I love what you guys are doing and I especially love this open materials thing because it really reduces costs a lot and it really means that a lot of people if you are, you know you guys have the only ecosystem at the moment where you can like except for maybe then Bamboo on the FDM side, where you can start with prototyping, grow into doing daily production stuff and then end up being volume manufacturing with the same software and the same printer, and I love that. I think that's a really wonderful way to scale a business and I think you guys are going to help a lot of other people scale their businesses as well. I think that's really fantastic.
Speaker 4Thank you guys are going to help a lot of other people scale their businesses as well. I think that's really fantastic, thank you so much, and I think it's also important. Um, what's really helping me is definitely that I have a feeling for the materials and I think if all the orthopedic and prosthetic technicians they get out those materials and get a feeling for the materials and have their first designs on them, uh, they're really gonna get in love with 3d printing and gonna make amazing stuff and that's how it's actually. That's what I'm seeing in so many industries.
Speaker 4So you start with getting the machine. Get familiar with the material, get familiar with the machine. Then you start to trust the machine because you see or you challenge the technical limitations of the machines and you see, oh, it's really reliable, for example. And then you start to think okay, there's a business case, for example right now, where it might make sense maybe to think about if 3D printing could be a solution. You evaluate it and either way, it is or it is not, but in some cases it is and that's where we get the increase. That's where people increase their fleets with more printers and see the benefit, and that's, I think, important. From R&D to end use. Get familiar with the machine, with the materials, with the designs, and then there's great possibilities.
Podcast Episode 12 Wrap-Up
Speaker 3Thank you so much for being with us today. We really learned a lot. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4Thank you too. It was a pleasure and hope to see you soon.
Speaker 3And Brent, thank you for being here as well today.
Speaker 2Oh, this was great. Yeah, she didn't. And thank you for, you know, kind of sharing and being such an advocate for 3D printing in general and inspiring creativity. I think it's, I think it's really great. So thank you so much for doing that.
Speaker 3Thank you very much for listening to the Prosthetics and Orthotics podcast.
Speaker 1Have a great day. And that's a wrap for another episode of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast, not just any episode. This is the 12th episode of season nine, so I'm really looking forward to season 10 coming in a few weeks. A special thanks to Shiden Yohannes for sharing his expertise and journey with us. If you enjoyed this episode, please kindly leave us a review. That would mean the world to us. If you want to catch up with us, please join us on linkedin and give us a shout via direct message. And until next time, we'll catch you on the next season.
