Episode 14 - Justice for Wongo (JC DILLARD) (Series Episode 7)

We apologize for the late episode...sometimes our full time jobs slow us down.  We continue our Justice for Wongo series.  In this episode, we talk to JC Dillard.  He is an ex-boyfriend of Jennifer's.  He gives us his take on what kind of person she is, and shares some stories of his time as her boyfriend.  You won't want to miss this episode.

Lock your windows, lock your doors, because every serial killer was somebody's neighbor!

Contact us at intoxicologypodcast@gmail.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:00

The views and opinions expressed on this episode of Intoxicology are strictly those of the host and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization. Content provided is for educational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not associated with any police organization or legal department that has input over this case. All the information being presented is taken from official police reports, news articles, and or television shows. We are using this opportunity to present the story as it happened and give the family the platform to share what they witnessed, lived through, and are still dealing with to this day.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I'm Stephanie. And we have uh more continuing investigative work that we are doing for uh Justice for Wongo.

SPEAKER_07 1:07

We had somebody call us investigative journalists this week.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Sure did. We're running with that. Yep. So um we've uh we've got a another guest today. Um his name is JC Dillard, and he um has a a connection, had a connection with um uh the pot one of the potential suspects. So um we'll let you guys um hear what he has to say. JC, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

You guys, you girls are very welcome. Thank you. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Um, so tell us how uh now you didn't know Wongo, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I did not. I did not.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

I So tell us how you know Jennifer.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

All right. I I moved back to Lubbock in the early 2000s. Uh I met Jennifer online with Yahoo personals. Oh I was uh I was freshly out of the service, you know, I was a service member and I had custody of my daughter.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

So I I lived my life, I spent two tours in the Air Force. Okay, you know, I and I lived my life that way, you know, um integrity first, sure, service for self and excellence in all we do. And and I've always lived my life that way. Now when I met Jennifer, I was seeking I was seeking a relationship. I was seeking a family, someone I could connect with who we had commonality with, right? Who wouldn't? Right, right. But but we were two we were two parents and and we were both working working adult parents, single parent, doing single parenting someone at the particular time.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

And so that that's what we had in common.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

What was the age difference in your kiddos back then?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Uh probably less than a year. It was really close. Okay. My daughter was like three at this time, and I think her daughter was two.

SPEAKER_07 2:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

So very easy to connect over yes, and it seemed like I mean, who would uh two having two little kids around the same age group, you know, that's kind of dreamy, and it's fun for the kids to have someone that they could pal around with and shear some camaraderie.

SPEAKER_06 3:13

Yeah. And now, so tell us w when was this?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

What was the the this was uh this was August, approximately August of 2004.

SPEAKER_06 3:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

And where were you said you moved back to Lubbock? Where were you guys in it it was a it was a quick, fast connection there in Lubbock? We both lived in Lubbock. Where did you move from? I I moved from uh Charleston, South Carolina. Nashville. Nashville. I just moved back from Nashville.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Okay, okay. So all right, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, um it when when we met, it was just kind of we just kind of it seemed like we were kind of looking for some people in our in our situations together. So things worked very, very fast between Jennifer and I. I I was more of a family guy, I wasn't a party or anything like that. So I was looking for good, wholesome a good, wholesome mate for myself.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Right. Like wife material.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Right, right. I was looking for wifey. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I was looking for wifey.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

You know, she she had pretty blue eyes and and uh immediately off the bad guy, she could be very warm and charming. She did what she wanted very quickly. Sure. Yeah, she she could say all the right things and all the right moments very quick. And uh that that's that's where where we came into start we started dating pretty much immediately.

SPEAKER_07 4:40

Did you was it like immediate um kind of like conver like do you message back and forth? Did you immediately go into like meeting in person?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Hey, it was pretty quick. I think we met in person, if I recollect, pretty, pretty quickly, I think, within uh, you know, short messaging and and yeah, we we didn't draw anything out at that particular time.

SPEAKER_07 5:03

So what do you remember like first impression was? How did you feel coming off of that person?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Hey, hey, I I was telling you a little bit, you know, that that warm, warm and kind of overly friendly uh to win you. You know, she was she was gonna she was gonna look at you and she was gonna um she was gonna win you over pretty quick, right? But but she was a bit pushy, you know, her personality, she's kind of a bit pushy. She likes to do what she liked, she liked to do.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

How so? Like, give us an example of how you knew that.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Uh uh she like if we suggested dinner or something like that, she had the best idea for dinner, uh, and we we had to do that. You know, it just seemed I see she would she would overpower you. Right. She wanted to take control and overpower you a little bit.

SPEAKER_07 5:49

So it was very much kind of her way or no way.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Right, right. Right. Um after that, you know, you know what we we didn't go out a whole lot because we had the kids a lot of the time. I had I had uh sole custody of my daughter, so I had her all the time. So I did not go out all the time, but the few times that we did, um she she did the second she touched alcohol, ladies, she uh I told her, You're not a bitch when you drink alcohol. You're an asshole. You just you shouldn't be touching it at all. You shouldn't have any drinks whatsoever. So I I from from that from really the first point I experienced that, uh, we were not gonna be hanging out at bars and we were not gonna have alcohol introduced because it was it was uh ruining anything that I put together for that evening and probably for the future.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

How long had you guys been seeing each other before you saw her with alcohol introduction?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

I think maybe maybe a month. Maybe a month. Yeah, something like uh maybe a month or something.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

So take us through that, what that was like. Well, uh when you realize like, oh shit, I'm I'm in a mess here.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Well, I I pulled a red flag pretty fast. You know, some people are shy and they they can't they won't pull a red flag. I uh I immediately will stop what we're doing, and if I don't like something or I or I feel like it's not appropriate. And I I told her immediately, I was like, man, my god, why why are you acting this way?

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

So you guys went out and she just what just made a scene or yeah, and she just became a different person, it seemed like when alcohol was introduced. Or maybe it was the atmosphere on top of the alcohol, you know, from uh we we did go a handful of times to Graham Central Station, world famous Graham Central Station.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Yeah, no Graham.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, we we toured that a couple of times. We toured that a couple of times. And uh what I what I did find odd, ladies, is that she grew up in Idolu, and and I I grew up in Ludwig, so I know people all over the place. Generally, if I'm if I'm searching enough, I'm gonna find someone that I went to school with or someone that I I was a little social butterfly per se.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

But but she didn't have any older friends for a girl that was of her age at that particular time. Uh I think she was 25 when we were dating.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

24, 25. Uh, but she didn't have any close friends from school or close friends necessarily. She was becoming close friends with her brother's fiance at that time.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Really? That is odd to be that age and not have any close friends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

So so she was the only, uh, excuse me, her brother's fiance. I met her just once, just briefly quick. And uh, she was the only person I met connected to Jennifer other than her mother. I met her mother a couple of times uh enough where her mother actually took my daughter and and Jennifer's daughter trick-or-treating. Oh they took took trick-or-treating. I actually have still a picture of her daughter for that Halloween year. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_07 9:07

Okay. What was your impression of her as a mother, like her relationship with her daughter?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

I I thought that she was uh she wanted to make sure that her daughter was secure. She wanted to make sure that I didn't have any immediate worries about her being uh possessive or being uh aggressive with her daughter or anything else. It made me feel comfortable enough to have my daughter within her presence.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

And and I was kind of a kind of a hovering father, you know. I was a single dad and I had her full time, so I was kind of a hovering parent. So any any kind of butterflies that I get negative, I I I will shut the ship down and I will leave.

SPEAKER_07 9:48

Oh yeah, you were protective. I that's totally understandable.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yes. So my baby.

SPEAKER_07 9:53

Yeah, of course. So how long? So you said it was, you know, kind of a month into whenever you guys went out the first time and kind of had some some incidents. When would you say is really kind of the time where you were just like, I don't know about this girl?

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Hey, I was telling Tony about the drinking and then uh yeah, about the way she treated treated me when we were out and she was drinking, and she she would uh disregard all of our feelings, any anybody that was around. She would disregard your feelings and only do what she wanted to do, uh, regardless of the consequence.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Can you give us an example of a time y'all were out and she showed her ass when she was drinking?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yes. Ladies, this is what led to the to our to our breakup. I hate to put this so so early in the session. Oh, the beginning of the end. But but but but again, hey, Graham Central Station, having a great time. We were we were actually on a double date.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I was with my friend Ken and Amanda. We we were we we met we met uh I introduced them to Jennifer and and seemed like it was gonna be a nice, nice evening out. We met them, I think that was our first time to go out as a couple with them. And as she got a little bit of alcohol, we she went to the bar while we were all sitting there talking, the three of us were talking, and Jennifer walked off to the bar and we watched her from across the bar kiss a guy. What she kissed a guy at the bar.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Oh my gosh. How how long into the date were you at this point?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Uh gosh, maybe within the hour. It's like 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

How much alcohol could she drink in an hour that would change her that much?

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Oh yeah, uh maybe two tops. You know what I mean? Maybe two to three, something like that. Somewhere in there. It wasn't so astronomical that I was stunned that that uh she was staggering, though I was gonna let her stagger to the bar top.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Yeah, it's not like she had five shots and just was out of control, didn't know what she was doing.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yeah, but but but ladies, we were dumbfound. I was stunned watching her cry. I was like, oh I I'd always uh being military. Um I grew up in a assisted Presbyterian minister's home. She was a nurse, assistant Presbyterian minister, and and seeing somebody behave like that in front of somebody, or at least catching them in that arena, yeah, was uh was heartbreaking, disappointing, shocking and angry.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Lots of anger.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Lots of I was very angry.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

So what happened when she came back to the table?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Uh we I I told her my friends were just kind of expelling her, and uh, I told her that uh I I I'm leaving her there. I'm I'm she you're not going home with me. So I left her there at the bar, and uh I was I was upset, of course.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Uh I I couldn't believe that my girlfriend would do that to me there at the bar. It was just completely unhinged. And this was a month in or was yes, and I I remember in one of one of your podcasts I listened to prior, you know, we talked about maybe her soliciting uh sympathy somewhere in there, right? Something to that extent. So after I left her at the bar, she called me later that evening. She didn't, and it was just a single phone call. I don't think she texted me, I can't remember. But I I remember talking to her on the telephone, and she she said that she was pulled over for a DUI. And this is where she was soliciting, she had done a bad action, she had upset me grant grandly where I was not speaking with her. And I left and I left her, and uh she said that she she asked me if she got arrested, if I would bail her out, and I told her, not just no, but hell no. You get rot in jail for it's just when was this that she said she got a D. For me as a human, that was just disrespectful. All the disrespect.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Yeah, that's that is disrespectful. I can't imagine doing that.

SPEAKER_07 13:53

And this was this the same night that she was kissing the other guy. She's asking you.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Oh my god. So she this was kind of and and I I can't even say for sure that it was even official uh DUI, or she just concocted the DUI. I I'm unable to determine. Didn't she ride with you to the bar? I'm sorry, I do know that she did not get a DUI because she kept on texting me, and I think she texted me that uh she she did not get a DUI and anything else. So I don't need to know if that was true or not. When we when we talked about personality traits and things that I picked up, uh simple things, I I would catch her in simple lies lady, just ridiculous things. Like things that you don't have to lie about. For instance, um uh I'd ask her, hey, could you take out the trash for me? And I call her later on in the day and and say, Hey, did you remember to take out the trash? And she'd be like, Yeah, yeah, I took out the trash, and I would come home and trash would be there. I'd be like, dude, you didn't have to lie. Just say, hey, I didn't have time to take it out. Those those things are ridiculous to me. Those are ridiculous levels.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

What did she say when you questioned her? Like, I thought you said you took the trash out.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

No, uh, I it she was just a vague, just distract, you know, gaslight.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Just gaslight. Let's move on to a different subject.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Uh when she said that uh she got a DUI, didn't you didn't she ride with you to the bar that night?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

She did. And apparently she had she had to go home and get her car. So who had to go home and get her car?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

I don't guess you know who took her home.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

No, I I I have no idea.

SPEAKER_07 15:28

That's I mean, you would think at that point if someone like took her home so she could get her car, be like, at that point, just stay home. Like where are you going?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

But it takes a lot of gall and a lot of audacity for um social unawareness or sociopathic kind of tendency to to do that, and then uh and then when we when I call you out, you you don't appear remorseful. That was that was probably a very big standout uh reason. When I feel disrespect, I I will disconnect and I I will not tolerate disrespect. Life is too short to be disrespect.

SPEAKER_07 16:09

So you noticed that kind of personality trait in her of the kind of manipulating the situation to kind of it was almost like testing you of like, okay, will he do this for me? Like you kind of noticed that that was a tactic of hers.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

After I did this to him.

SPEAKER_07 16:24

Yeah. Will he still because that was something that we kind of noticed, you know, with some of her messages with Wongo. It was almost kind of like baiting, like, oh, I'm gonna see if you'll do this for me. And then it's like, if the guy wouldn't do it, I'm sure she probably got pissed.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

And you know, that of course that that night was the night that broke the camel's back. I did not respond to her text shortly thereafter, like that morning. I may have texted her once or twice. I may not have texted her at all, but I I cut her off. I would not answer her phone calls, I disconnected her out of my life as I should have. As I should have. Yeah. That type of I that that is uh that type of behavior like that is uh it's not typical. It's it's disgusting type of behavior. Did she treat people?

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Did she um was she like stalkerish at all with you, or did she just did she just let it go? Or was she texting and coming by, calling?

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Hey, she kind of uh I think she kind of knew where I stood anyway, or or maybe maybe she uh she didn't have enough in a relationship to really care for it that much. She was kind of doing what she wanted to do anyway.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Right. No fake babies.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Maybe she was able to walk away, or maybe she understood exactly where I stood that I was done.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Right. Right. Um what was I gonna ask you? I was gonna oh, so at that point you guys had so uh in total you dated what a couple of months?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Uh from from August to uh after after uh after Halloween. It wasn't quite the Thanksgiving. We didn't make it to Thanksgiving Day. Okay she was not at my Thanksgiving supper.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Oh darn. I'm shocked.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah, yeah, and I wouldn't expect you ladies to beat me if she was if she had arrived.

SPEAKER_07 18:15

What else do you remember about your time with her as far as either personality traits, or do you have any like little stories that you remember that you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Uh well I I I had spoke uh when when I spoke to you ladies uh a while back. Now, when I talked to you about the social tact, how the awkward social tactness of kissing a guy at the bar, uh I introduced her to my father and my brother at my at my house. You know, my father was terminal, right? And uh at this time my my father was living in my house, so we spent a lot of time at her house, you know, to get my dad his his room and his his you know, it's so he can live his life without uh being interrupted, right? I introduced her to my father and my brother, and she was flirting with my brother group. Kind of in front of me, and then it was to a point, I'm not really a jealous guy. You gotta give me a reason to be jealous. But it was so off-putting, and especially the fact that it was my brother, and my brother is my brother's just being himself, he's not doing anything extra or anything else. She was telling me how handsome my brother was, and she was telling just good things about my brother, overly untotally um non-tactful. Yeah, that's more that baby little tacky. And if I told you if I were dating one of you ladies, I said, Oh my god, your sister's hot. Right. Your sister's completely hot, right? You girls would be angry and would strike a tongue.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Yeah, punch you directly in the throat. We would never speak again.

SPEAKER_07 19:53

Well, that's one of those, it's just like, good grief. Can you not turn it off for a second? Like, do you have to be like pursuing every male that you encounter? It's kind of sound like that's what it was. It's like every male she encountered was a potential.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Right. Right. Hey, ladies talking, talking about that. This is gonna freak you out. This kind of freaks me out. And uh some days I would say, uh not to be tacky or anything, but I I I dodged bullets. There was we would lay in bed, we were we had a very physical relationship between us. But we were laying in bed and she would ask random questions, you know. You you got you girls can't imagine what a woman would ask uh in bed. If you think so-and-so's pretty, or or or what if what those what if questions?

SPEAKER_02 20:41

What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Ladies, I'll never forget this. As long as I I live, thank God every every day till I'm 100, I hope. But she asked me one time, and um you you girls maybe you may have seen this movie. She said, What if I had an ice pick between the bed frame of the mattress and the box frame? And that that was a thing, you know, that was uh something that had happened, you know, in a in a very popular movie called Basic Instinct. Yes. With her with uh Michael Douglas and uh Sheridan. She had asked me that, and I was like, What? What are you are you crazy, girl?

SPEAKER_03 21:23

What did you say?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

She she would say some I I I just I said what and I in in ridiculousness, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Just like, who says that? Who would say something like that?

SPEAKER_06 21:35

You didn't go to sleep after that, did you? I mean, we have a true crime podcast, and I don't think we would ask that.

SPEAKER_07 21:40

That's a low dart.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

But that was one of the few questions other than some ridiculous questions you just kind of randomly asked me, you know, while we were laying there or something to that kind of extent. But I it was so ups obscure that I could never forget it. It's one of those things that I I don't know, it's just so off putting. Well yeah. Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

I I completely understand.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah, I mean when some when you're laying in bed with somebody and they mention what if I potentially had a murder weapon underneath his mattress? Now you ready to go to sleep? Good night. No. No.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah. Yeah. 99, guys.

SPEAKER_07 22:21

Well, I mean, in my opinion, that just shows that she kind of had those those rageful thoughts in her.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Right. And you know what things that really stand out about a relationship was her her inability to care for the actions that she was doing to me or whoever, whoever, whoever else. Especially, especially to me. Um her inability, she just didn't really uh she wanted you to just accept what she was doing and then move on.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

No matter what it was.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

No sense of dwelling.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

So I was just going on. I know you're hurt. See you later. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah. I I have hate to keep going back to this over and over again, but um, and I don't remember if I asked you or you answered, but um the night at the bar where she kissed the guy, when she came back to the table and you said, Hey, I just saw you kiss that guy. What did she say? No, I didn't, or yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

It was denial, ladies. It was absolutely denial. And then I had to explain to her that we all three sat and watched her at the bar.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

And she just stuck to it? I didn't, I didn't understand.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And and that's that's another thing. Uh you know, just the white little lies and things like that. I would at the end of the day, I was not able to trust her. And at the end of the day, she would ride her lies. She would just ride with them. That's what is said, that's what I'm sticking with.

SPEAKER_07 23:56

Right. So you are of the opinion that if she had a secret to keep, she would keep it till the day she dies.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Wait, what did Colin Ray say? He's saying it best when he said, Well, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

SPEAKER_07 24:13

Yeah. I mean, that's what it sounds like. I mean, this is just our opinion, but 20 years later, and yeah, someone's still sticking to their story. So that's very, very interesting, though, that she just like I mean, how manipulative can you be to be like, three of us saw this, and you're still gonna sit over here and be like, no, I didn't. Like, right, are we all three seeing something different? Like, that is just crazy to me.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

And I I wonder, and I I wonder, like, in her past relationship, you know, she was married to uh I think his name was Justin Spartan.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Uh, it didn't appear like that was hostile necessarily. I we I wouldn't have stuck around with her if I knew that she was like in a custodial battle and things were very hostile and it was gonna drain money and it was gonna drain emotion and hurt kids. I I'm just not into that.

unknown 25:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Um but that didn't appear to be going on, so that part of the life seemed pretty pretty uh stable and consistent, it seemed. Right. But I I may have met him once, I can't even remember. But he was uh really a a non-factor, but it seemed like he did his fatherly duties.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

And and her her daughter was very close to her mother. Like uh she as a grandmother, it seemed like she was fairly active. Um her mom, it may have been I'm not sure if she worked or if she's a stay-at-home mom, but her her father or stepfather, I was unable to determine the stegan miller. I I didn't I didn't really get into her family breakdown. She never talked about it really.

SPEAKER_07 25:49

Yeah, we think it's stepfather. I don't know, we don't know too much. And that's the thing, is like there's really not a whole lot of other than people who knew her previously, like before you know this incident happened, there is not a whole lot of that we can find out there. It's just kind of like who she was before the murder, like has disappeared, and it's like only the life that she's created after. It's very strange.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Well, I I hope her I hope her husband hears our podcast. I hope he listens to the podcast, the previous podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Then I I hope that he is weary, and if he's helping her scrub these things off the internet and and uh scratch the history that is that has already happened, that he has some kind of remorse or I can't imagine he would he would have any involvement in that.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

But I mean he I think he's remarried and has kids and stuff, and so but um the current husband.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Oh yeah, yeah, I was speaking of the current husband.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Oh, the current husband. I thought you meant Justin Spark.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah, because I had heard that he was uh he was a private investigator, and I'd be curious as to how they how they met, and I wonder if she's you know, I I'd heard rumor that she likes men in uniforms.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Yeah, military, police, anything like that.

SPEAKER_07 27:11

Yeah, well, and she got a a so-called private investigator, but the word on the street was is that he did not know about this whole murder suspect incident before the episode aired, is what we were told is that he found out once the episode aired that she was once a suspect in a murder investigation. And I'm like, not a very good private investigator. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

And I mean that's just hearsay. We don't we don't know that's how it happened, but we've heard that's just the heard of the story.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

But um, ladies, maybe we're his insurance policy now that this has come to life, so happened.

SPEAKER_07 27:51

Maybe. Um be like, uh, sir, if you need help, you can email us at a toxicology podcast, we'll come pick you up, right? Because I mean, um, she's left a trail of destruction. So, I mean, what's to say that she won't do it with him for sure?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

That's why I call Stephanie the hammer.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

The hammer, we'll get you. So uh we were talking about how she'll stick to a story no matter what. Um, we were having a conversation with a friend of the podcast recently, and if we need to cut this out, I don't know, we'll figure it out later. But uh so we were having this conversation with him, and and he was like, What I don't understand is it's been all this time later, if she is that she has some sort of involvement, it's that we assume. Um so if she didn't actually pull the trigger but knows who did and has just kept this secret for all this time, why would she not come forward and just say, if you promise me immunity, then I will I will give it up? And because then that would that would prove that she didn't actually do it. Um, she just withheld information and that she would get immunity from it.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Let me let me give you another perspective that I thought of long and hard. I don't think that she had a lot of connections. And we would probably see it in the phone records or text messages, because back then it was still, you know, fairly uh we were fairly exploring, you know, phone technology and things like that. It was still new, it was still new to forensics, right? Right. Um but but when we see a flood of calls to a specific individual, then she was either she would have to give something to somebody. If someone was involved, they would have to get something out of this. They're not gonna do it for free.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Right, sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Right, or something to that effect. What if, what if I'm just giving you what if scenarios what if he he long ago called her to the carpet and she was so upset trying to prove herself as a five-month pregnant woman that she got so upset when he called her bluff that she she couldn't prove anything, she had nothing. And she was so upset that maybe she had drank a little bit that night. And maybe that's what maybe she was able to do that for herself. Now, a high caliber gun like a 38 special or a 357, which was used on uh on Jonathan, uh that could that could have been easily handled uh in a stub nose form. It didn't have to be a dirty, hairy looking law long 357. It could have been. Or it could have been a longer, uh a longer stub nose 38 special. However, you know, it's much more handled. You can handle it in your you know your hands and everything else really easy in the stub nose form. You know, that was a very popular police weapon for a long time. 38 special stubb nose.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Oh I don't think I knew that.

SPEAKER_07 30:55

I don't think I knew that either. So in in your opinion, you sound like you're you're familiar with guns and everything. Is that an I mean I don't want to sound like sexist or anything, but like a woman could easily shoot that type of gun.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

It wouldn't be like too yes, uh and at close and at close range, ladies, you th that's what those guns are made for. They're not made for hunting deer or anything like that. Those are close range combatant protective um protective weaponry.

SPEAKER_07 31:24

So it's the kind of gun like if you were gonna have one to protect yourself in your home, that's the kind of gun you would have.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yeah, possibly. Yeah, very possibly. That's a large caliber and that's gonna take care of a lot of things, like a nine millimeter. I'm not I'm kind of skeptical with a nine millimeter, even though most police carry that. It's not absolute an absolute lethal round, maybe 40 caliber going going on um a bigger round like a 357 38 special round.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

You know, though those are definitely uh stoppers. Those are those those are killer rounds.

SPEAKER_07 31:59

Right. Okay, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

So after you guys broke up, um sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Oh, just say I'm sorry. Just thinking about that would mean that should he have had that particular weapon, or somehow she got her hands on that particular weapon. I doubt that she carried it. There's no doubt we could we could go through a million different scenarios, but I think it would be unlikely unless she came with maliciousness as herself to have the gun on her person.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

But maybe that that was Wango's that he had purchased, and he yeah, you know, he lived by himself. It was and Brian had lived there in some time as was from what I had heard. And he was living there by himself, so he could have purchased that after the break in. Could have very well found something from somebody.

SPEAKER_07 32:47

Whenever you were with Jennifer and like you were at her place and everything like that, there was never she never mentioned anything about her owning a gun.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

No, no, not at all. Not at all. And I I almost feel like she would have abstained or so we may have had a conversation about that because I had a few guns at the particular time. And I may not have been able, I I can't don't quote me on that. I I I seem to somehow remember us having a a question about me not bringing my guns or something like that to the house.

SPEAKER_07 33:19

Because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Because the people of the children.

SPEAKER_07 33:23

Oh, right. Yeah, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Don't quote me on that. I I I just recall something faintly about gun discussion while we were at our house.

SPEAKER_07 33:30

Sure. No, that would make sense. If she you both have you know small children, you're gonna want to make sure that if there are any guns or anything, that you're gonna keep them, you know, yeah, out of reach. But also, it's like that's kind of the the big piece of the puzzle that we haven't found yet is how did she allegedly, if she did this, how was the gun acquired? Because, you know, we don't we have no idea where it came from, and we have no idea where it is today. So it's just it's such a mystery.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

It is, it is because she had borrowed a gun from somebody or taken a gun from somebody. We could go through those scenarios. Uh, we could I I think that we would have seen a little more proof in the pudding if she had someone involved that she would have to communicate with that person. And she would think at the time of the forensics, maybe a phone call would be safer than text messages. Well, we would probably see a rash of phone calls to to an individual or individuals.

SPEAKER_07 34:27

Right. Someone, and we if we need to cut this out, you tell me. So we another or same friend of the podcast um that we spoke to this week, you know, had a very interesting theory of you know, Rachel said that they were at Jake's that night and then they went back to these guys' house. She went into the bathroom for an undisclosed amount of time, and then came out and was like, all right, we can leave now. Uh, this person posed the theory of did she acquire the gun at that point? Because that's the same night that Wongo was that's the same night that he was murdered. Well, and that was a theory that I was just like, I feel like we've looked at this from so many different angles, and that's why we love talking to like new people with fresh perspectives, because my mind, I was just like, oh my gosh, what if you're right? Like, my mind was blown by that.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Late ladies, shortly after I I heard about your podcast and we connected, I I watched the Taylor Parker, the Taylor Parker documentary.

SPEAKER_07 35:28

Crazy, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yes, yes, where you know she had faked the pregnancy and she gone so far, and much like someone else I know was writing lies, was writing a bunch of lies. And I can't help but think of that he finally called her bluff. He got tired of her crap, yeah. And that that Jonathan had called her bluff probably several times, but maybe that last night he really meant it and it really hurt.

SPEAKER_07 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

And he wanted nothing to do with her.

SPEAKER_07 35:58

I think that that's a very valid argument because I mean, based off of what you're telling us, that you know, she would get, you know, she would when she was drinking, which we uh according to Rachel, she was drinking that night and possibly doing some other extracurriculars.

unknown 36:15

Right.

SPEAKER_07 36:16

She got you said an asshole. So which means you know, she could have just snapped and she could have gotten aggressive and you know, had that rage and just been, you know, like and maybe, and this is all hypothetical, maybe that night when she was at that guy's, you know, they she and Wongo had been arguing over the phone.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Maybe when she was there, she said something, uh, like, Well, I'm gonna go to his house. And in that, and this is all just you know, speculating. But the way that she's so good at manipulating, according to all sources, it makes me wonder if maybe she wasn't like, I'm gonna go out there and but I'm a little afraid of him. And the guys are like, hey, why don't you take this gun just to protect yourself? You know, maybe she hypothetically didn't go there with intent, but did take a gun for so-called, and I air quote strongly, protection.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

I mean, we could we could all be reasonable, and that that doesn't mean that reasonable things happen, right? Right. But it would be very unreasonable if she's afraid that she could go out there in the middle of the night with someone that she's afraid of.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

But that that's someone in a sane sound of mind.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

That would that would refrain from that.

SPEAKER_07 37:42

Well, and that's I mean, no, it's very likely that she could have used that as like an argument to these people to kind of manipulate them. I don't think I agree with you. I don't think she was ever once scared of him because you don't drive out to the middle of absolute nowhere at that time of night if you're scared of them. Because I mean, if something happens, I mean, clearly, as we see with this, no one sees anything, no one hears anything. Like, that's there, but I can see her using that as a manipulation tactic for sure. A way to get what she wanted, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Going into the bathroom, uh, I didn't know her to be a drug user or anything to that extent, and I can't recall, and I don't believe in most cases I do not connect with women. If you tell me that you've had drug use, you know, next, next, that that was not my MO in any form or fashion.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

It it may say because I had custody and it would mean everything uh potentially losing custody.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

Exactly. Should I should I have a mate that is called It's just that everything um kind of about that night seems like like it was contrived, like it's it's like Rachel said she didn't normally leave her vehicle and ride with anyone else. She didn't normally just go hang out with Jennifer, just the two of them. The whole thing seemed weird. And then, you know, they get to Jason, these two guys who Rachel doesn't know come walking in like and straight to their table. So obviously Jennifer had been talking to them. They come in, hang around, then like, hey, we go back to their place. They get there, and no one I haven't heard anybody say anything about drug use with Jennifer. So Rachel's out front, Jennifer goes inside. Even if she didn't do drugs, maybe that was her excuse to go in the back with them, was like, oh, we were just, you know, doing a little whatever. Um, when really she was there to get a gun. I don't know. It's all speculation, but it's it's interesting how the minute she got whatever it was she wanted, she's like, Okay, let's go. And then she drops Rachel off at her house and immediately says, I'm going out to Wongo's. Well, if that was at midnight and Wongo was found at 5 17 in the morning, where was she during all that time?

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yeah, and the the time frame where Rachel says it was about 12 30, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Approximately 12 30 when she left her driveway. Right. She left her house. So I I I find from the interviews that I've I've heard from you all that that the cool case files, they were stumbling upon a few things, but bumbling, you know, with some of the time frames and some of the and maybe that they didn't interview, they didn't take enough time to interview and come up with a uh great right uh great storyline.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Right. Because I mean if you're looking at it, say say at the latest she left uh Rachel's at one, let's say it was one, it's 45 minutes from from Rachel's to Wongo. So we're looking at she possibly gets there at two. From the Cold Justice episode, I think they said her phone pinged out there at three in that area. And so, you know, even if she didn't get there until three o'clock, there would be three o'clock to to five seventeen that a lot can happen in that amount of time.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

And she testified that she I I was saying, um I haven't heard her say or heard anyone say that she stopped anywhere else in between, right? Other than what Rachel had said that they stopped at a friend's house.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Right, but there was no other stops. Jennifer is not that kind. When I was with her, she was not that kind. She was a point A to point B type of girl.

SPEAKER_05 41:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

There was no just stopping at the store and sitting in the parking lot and and uh chewing away time.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

I wonder what the phone records indicate. I wonder if they were able to retrieve the phone data uh of uh how long she was talking with Longo. It it was it a couple calls that she had one call for 30 minutes, and he said, Yeah, you can come over if you want. And yeah, and then she talked to him a little bit on the way over.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

I think there's a lot of a gray area there because of the technology back then, but we do know that her phone pinged out there. We do know that she's made up several different stories about how the phone, the last phone call with him went. We know that um they can go back and look at the text messages because they were on the Cold Justice episode, but I haven't heard anybody specifically say the length of time that her conversations were with him. And these are all great questions that some small town sheriff should have asked.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Right, right. And let me pose another question. How did anybody even think remotely to check for pains on dates after the murder?

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

That she went back out there and possibly picked up a murder weapon and she didn't take it with her herself.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Right. And messages and you know, anything. I don't I just don't know if I don't know. And I mean they must still have that phone in evidence for them to have gotten those text messages for the Cold Justice episode.

SPEAKER_07 43:16

But I would like to believe that that phone is still in evidence, but I don't trust anybody with the Bailey County Sheriff's Office. Who knows, really? That thing probably went air quote missing a while ago, I would suspect, knowing that.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

As as we saw with Jennifer's stories, how they they changed with the sheriff or the yeah, the sheriff's department, how they changed a couple of times. We saw it change maybe three times to that extent. Um I I wonder you know, where if she was in possession of a weapon. If she just didn't take it with her. I don't think she made a few slip ups that were on the fly, but given a little bit of time, she was probably And she would be able to stick that weapon somewhere where somebody wouldn't retrieve it. You could stick it in the dirt and erase your f your footprints. You know, there are all sorts of things in the huge cotton field that you can do and gully a ditch or something like that. She would have adequate time. You know, she may have stumbled on the fly, but I I wouldn't tell you that Jennifer was a sheer idiot if you were talking to her. She was able to achieve a degree and teach, sure. Things like that. So she could be methodical.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

She has the ability, uh, the cognitive ability to uh protect herself in certain certain venues.

SPEAKER_07 44:39

I certainly don't think she's dumb. No, she's a problem solver. Right. So it was like, okay, here's my problem. How do I get rid of this? And that's another thing where it's like at one point I was like, they never searched her car. What if she had a weapon in there? The gun in the trunk the whole time and they never searched it. Or yeah, I mean, she had plenty of time. She could have hidden it out there and come back, or she could have hidden it out there and just thought, let me let nature take its course and maybe it'll just disappear on its own. It's there's she just knew no one's gonna look for it.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

You know, if I if I'm if I'm just thinking forensically, uh typic typically, if if there were just a random break-in, like uh the the break in that happened two months or two weeks before he had passed, uh typically there would you know a novice wouldn't be you'd be able to pick up some fingerprints on the door handle, uh the door itself, somewhere there would have been some fingerprints someplace else. Right. They're only picking up Longo, Jonathan's fingerprints, and or and they're picking up Jennifer's fingerprints, and we're picking up nobody else's. We have to exclude a lot of other people, uh unless somebody was very prepared to to murder one.

SPEAKER_07 45:52

Right. It's a lot of it comes down to we're asking the questions that should have, you know, been done 20 years ago. And that's all these are all questions that are like, yes, this could have definitely helped in all of this, and now all of that evidence is gone. It's like, yeah, if they would have looked for other fingerprints, would they have found anything? They might have, but that's all gone now. And it's like why we could go into a whole how we feel about the sheriff.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I would and I would love to get with Shay. Should things continue, and hopefully, we were able to fill guys and ladies and spread this message, and maybe somebody somewhere could could recall or knew about the situation. It's it's very crazy that I have a woman that's five months pregnant that's drinking at a bar.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

That's that's that's irresponsible. And that may be I'm not sure the law is, but that's probably reckless abandonment. Sure. Uh reckless abandonment.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Well, and drinking and driving.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Reckless behavior.

SPEAKER_07 46:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

But uh endangering uh endangering a child.

SPEAKER_07 47:02

Sure. No, you're yeah. It's I mean, everything about it, it's just like you start telling the story and you're just like, there's no way this is true because it's just so it's crazy. It's crazy that this has gone on for as long as it did, and then all these people that it's like it kind of seems like the signs were all there that one day she was gonna snap, and it's you know, she yeah, and it's yeah, it's just dismissed like, oh, you know, whatever. And that's where it's like these other people that are involved, you know, what these two mystery guys at Jakes, if y'all are listening, I bet you could, you know, work out a deal for immunity if you roll over on allegedly our suspect. But there's just so much here that we have just gathered just ourselves, and nothing's been done with it. Right. And it's like your stories about how she had acted, you know, previously before all of this, it it shows a pattern of this woman's a little loony, deception and manipulation and ladies.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

I I think I told you before last time we sp we spoke, and I'll tell our audience uh kind of kind of how I I I stumbled on the Jennifer again. Yeah. A friend of mine that that is personally divorced, and he's in the dating realm. He he he was married for 25 years together with this woman, about 30. And he was getting into the dating, and he was talking about some of the girls that that had had drug abuse and drug addiction and how it was ruining some of his dating. And I told him about a girl that I I dated that it was alcohol, and when she drank, she became a total asshole with the slightest amount of out alcohol. He said, Well, I have an app where I could I could search people. I've got a people search app and I could do a background check on her. What's her name? And he he just asked me in like two seconds. So I spurted out her name, and then he's like, uh, was she arrested for murder? I was like, What?

SPEAKER_07 49:10

That was the question I wanted to ask you of like, okay, so how did you find out about all of this? Because this was before Wongo that you two dated. So how did you find out about this? And what was your reaction once you found out about all of this?

SPEAKER_01 49:23

I I just recently, within I don't know, seven months or so, uh, seven, eight months, found out about um her her potentially being a murder suspect. And getting to the cold case, it dro it it all all roads were leading to the cold case. Um Dr. Gunnery. And uh, like you said, everything else seemed to be a lot of scrub and not a lot of not a lot of activity that I could find. I couldn't find a lot of information on her other than the cold case files.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Have you watched the episode yet?

SPEAKER_01 50:00

The Cold Justice? I did watch I did watch I I watched it a handful of times until I couldn't find it anymore. And I much like you ladies, I was trying to spread the word.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Because I know it if someone got away with this, um, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I couldn't I couldn't uh if I had some information that I I couldn't help.

SPEAKER_07 50:23

So when your friend pulled that up and was like, was she accused of murder? What what was your reaction whenever you're just like probably I was stunned.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

I was absolutely stunned. I was 100% stunned.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Did you immediately go home and Google her?

SPEAKER_01 50:40

I did. I did. I was trying to find any and all information, and then it led me to another another Jennifer uh Sparkman that was arrested herself, I believe. She was arrested for murder somewhere in East Texas.

SPEAKER_07 50:56

Yeah, there's been some on some of these cold justice like Facebook pages and stuff. Some people are like, oh no, she was arrested. And I know Shay's gotten on there and it's like, no, she's not, she's still out. Like, you know, it's it's it's hard whenever you have two killer or potential killers with the same last name, but I can't even imagine like your stomach dropping whenever your friend said that of just like oh crap.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

And I I feel I feel lucky that I pull red flags pretty early, and then I I don't uh I don't like to spar. I'm not gonna spar with a partner. You know, they'll knock you down to their level and then beat you with their experience, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:38

So I mean I you definitely dodge the bullet.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

And it could have maybe maybe for me it could have turned out very nasty. Should I engage a little further?

SPEAKER_07 51:49

Yeah, sure. You gotta be thinking that. Like I mean, the ice pit comment, yeah, it yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

It was just so off, off-putting. And I thought to myself, who the hell would say something like that? Who in their right mind would would just remotely say something like that?

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Right. And you have a child at living in your house. Like, even that thought would be like, well, I mean, I guess this was was this at her house? Still, she had a child. It's like, what do you get what would happen if she did do that? You know, then what you know terrifying.

SPEAKER_07 52:24

Well, and that's not just a random, like, you know, a lot of times if you're like laying in bed with your partner and you're like, Oh, what would you do if I can honestly say I've never had that one? And we're we're true crime people, and that con I can speak for myself, Campus. I don't know about you. But that has never gotten brought up in my house.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

I'm not speaking just for myself. We as women are dumb sometimes, and we just ask the stupidest questions like, Do these pants make me look fat? You know, if I get fat, will you still love me? You know, yeah, like you said, is so-and-so prettier than me, that kind of stuff. But I don't recall ever saying, if I had a murder weapon between the mattress, would you still love me? No, I would not. Get out. That's crazy. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_07 53:12

I'm just like stunned by that story, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Oh yeah. It it definitely uh it definitely stood out enough. One of those one of those moments in your life that does stand out, kind of like your kids saying something funny, like like Wongo, like Wongo's uh his nickname, you know, that stands out. Yeah, those things that's obscure and indifferent, and it stands out.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Yeah, we've called him Wongo so long now that it's hard for me to say Jonathan. And when we first started this series, it was so hard for me to call him Wongo because I knew him as Jonathan. Well, and now I'm lady. Oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

And ladies, I was gonna tell you, we remember these things not because they're frequent, because they're very they're very uh infrequent and very they don't come around very often.

SPEAKER_03 53:57

Yeah, they're memorable.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

So yeah, yeah, that's they're important to happen that way.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

Yes. Yeah. Well, is there um is it do you was there anything else? Ah, it seemed like I had a question a minute ago. Um do you have any other stories for us? Is that I mean, you have a lot to share considering the amount of time that you knew her. She she really kept things interesting in two months, Tom.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Right. And remember, I was a stay, I wouldn't say I'm a I was a stay-at-home father. I was working very hard and a full-time father. So what my off time was my family time, and that's what I I engrossed myself with. That was that was my off time.

SPEAKER_07 54:39

Right. Well, and I I like to ask our our people that we interview this question of just, you know, hypothetically, in your opinion, is this something that you think that Jennifer was capable of, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 55:00

In my opinion, the the uh the inability to trust her, her her ability to lie about simple things and even even things that were big things, such as you know, cheating on me in front of my face and degrading me in public. Um with with little little remorse, I would say that she could hurt my feelings, and then just like uh the story that I told you about the DUI, she wanted me to feel sorry for her after she had just completely trashed my feelings and uh disrespected me. Now I'm to feel sorry for her for her actions. Feel sorry for me because now I may have a DUI. Can you help me?

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Yeah, that's psychotic.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Not not that I'm so sorry what I did for you, I could never forgive myself. Why would I do something like that?

SPEAKER_03 55:52

Right. Now will you help me? Instead, it's just like I know it is shit all over you, but uh can you help me? Right. Wow, no apologies.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

So you think then that I think that she that she had uh the ability to emotionally she tried to uh a couple of times emotionally to go into arguments with me, and I I just don't do that. I don't engage in full arguments like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Yeah, you think if if she were to lay a hand on me, I'd just leave. I I'll call the cops or leave.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

I I'm not I'm not going to jail for anybody.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Right. And she I think she definitely has the ability to compartmentalize. So uh now I don't know her, so something this big, I don't know if she could compartmentalize something this big, but we do know that she will take a lie to the nth degree even when you know she's lying, and she knows you know she's lying.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Yeah, she she wanted to exert that behavior and expect you just to accept it. Does she does she have the ability to do something like that? Do I do I see most married couples fight over children? Maybe they were having to fight over a child that wasn't there because we can't prove that she was or was not pregnant. Um and it appeared like he attempted to be involved, he wanted to be involved, and she was not including him, but wanting him to be in her life regardless, which is insane. That's kind of crazy in itself. But maybe they got in a very heated argument over a said child or said unsaid child.

SPEAKER_07 57:32

I think that's very valid.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Got up got very emotional and got to a point where they were they were fighting for it.

SPEAKER_07 57:41

I think that's completely I can definitely see it going that way. And it's just like, I mean, yes, we don't think this pregnancy was real or not, but I'm like, this is the kind of guy that everybody wants. It's like sometimes, you know, you tell a guy you're pregnant and they're just like, okay, bye. And this one was like, I want to have this, like, I want to be in this child's life. So it's like, you can't fault him for anything. He was trying to do everything the right way and trying to do everything like the respectable way. And yeah, I think he ultimately probably just called her on her bluff, and she just snapped. Snapped. Yeah. And it sounds like based off of what you're saying, that that was a possible personality trait of hers.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Dur during that time frame with the characteristics that I described for her, could I have seen her do something like that and try to get emotional with me and and and uh like I said, trying to tell tell me no, you didn't see that me kiss that guy and then and then try to get into an emotional spat about it. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

Yeah. Wow. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_07 58:50

Well, we're on a happy note, we're glad you made it out alive, and it sounds like you have a beautiful life now, and your your daughter is doing well and thriving, and family's doing good, so you can, you know, at least have have that as a positive to take away from this, but you definitely would take the cake if someone wanted to ask if anybody has some crazy ex-girlfriend stories. Really?

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Right, right. I I would love to to further chat with Shay and her husband, because if there's if we have enough enough evidence, I I think that we could even go to a civil trial. You know, if you can't get it one way and there's enough evidence, maybe maybe there's a there's another way. There's another way to this.

SPEAKER_07 59:36

That was something I think Chris Locke uh had mentioned something about pursuing maybe like a wrongful death suit. Which I mean, I definitely think there's I think there's enough for at least that and more. It's just we need the powers that be to pay attention and to sign on, yeah. To care enough to see this thing through, because I mean there's no reason that this should have there's no reason that this should be a cold case and that we're coming up on the 20th year anniversary right having gone nowhere. I mean, all of the evidence, whether it's circumstantial or not, it's there.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:12

And there's no indication that anyone is moving forward, or I mean, it's just we just want to keep talking about this so maybe someone will take notice and go, maybe we should do something. But you know, right, we we we know the likelihood of that happening isn't great, but um, it never hurts to try. It's better than not trying at all.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:34

We're trying to like politely bully them. We're just gonna keep annoying you, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Right. The great thing about the coal case, however, is that we were able to eliminate the the only we only had two suspects. We were able to really eliminate one for the most part. Um, I think I think that the cell information from cell tower pinging is very could be very it was very damning because we could see clearly that most people they take their phones wherever they go.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:06

Right in most cases. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

And I think that's and the story was absolutely corroborate c collaborated after after 20 years uh or 15 years whenever he was interviewed.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

Right. I think there's absolutely no doubt that Brian had nothing to do with this.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:24

Well, and it's you had two main suspects, one cooperated, one asked for a lawyer. Right. I mean, that's gotta that's gotta mean something.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:31

One told the truth, one lied. Yeah, you know, and why would you lie if you if you have nothing to hide and you had no involvement, why would you lie ever? Why would you lie?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:44

I mean, if I was innocent, I would have been like, you can test my hands, take my clothes, you want, cut off my hair if you want to, like anything you need to help this. Right. And so that's exclude me. You're right, to help them and prove your innocence.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

That my loved ones, the people that I value most, that they do not think ill of me in this manner. This that's the most heinous thing a human could do on this planet is take the life of another human unnecessarily.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:11

Well, and I've said too, the thing that, you know, whenever you think about it from such an emotional standpoint of like this lady, and once again, this is all allegedly, she's never been convicted of anything, but this woman was a mother herself, and you took somebody's child and then went to his funeral and hugged his mom and said, you know, I'm sorry for your loss. It's like, what kind of monster does that? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Wow. That's very powerful.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:38

It is, and it's just like you're a mother. Imagine how that would be if you lost your child, and then you go to the funeral and just like nothing. It's just, but that plays into what you were saying of she could detach and she could, you know, be that emotionally manipulative that it's not out of the realm of possibility for her to do something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:04

Right. I would have told anybody and everybody, look, I I was pregnant, there was no doubt. Um, this was my doctor, and this is what he said, and and to make sure that I was excluded, that I had at five months that I had a miscarriage, and there would be documentation stating the miscarriage.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

There's no like my ex-wife and I lost a child at five months, uh-huh, and it was very devastating because the child was large enough when we didn't see the heartbeat anymore, we had an emergency DNC.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

And it was very emotional to the both of us because at five months we had bonded, we had accepted the child and bonded with the child.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

Sure. I'm sorry that that happened to you guys. I mean, I lost one at seven weeks, and even then, just I mean, I certainly didn't have any bond, but it was it was still devastating.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:00

And well, it's a traumatic experience no matter at what point you are. Right. And you would think that somebody I don't know, I guess I'm just thinking that maybe since she had already had a child, she knew like the bond that you feel with them. So you would think if she lost a child at at that advanced stage of pregnancy, that it would have been sheer devastation. In my mind, it would have been. But I mean, right, maybe she didn't care. Well, I mean, we're all saying this that there's no baby. Right, right. Right. It's just but that's another argument that you can argue of no, that's you're not gonna have a miscarriage and go to a funeral the next day. You are going to be in the hospital delivering and recovering emotionally and physically. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

So Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't get the time frame with an alleged uh I thought it was after the funeral that she had had. I I wasn't clear on what she had had the miscarriage.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

Supposedly it was days after he she found him. And so at the funeral was it that somebody asked her at the funeral?

SPEAKER_07 1:05:11

It was so the episode that we have that's about to come out, um, which it'll already be out by the time your episode comes out, but we talked to um it would have been the oldest Kendall cousin, and she stated that at the funeral, so it had been after the funeral, um, she told Carolyn, Wongo's mom, that it would not surprise her if this girl it comes back in a couple days and says she had a miscarriage. And sure enough, it was a couple days, I think, after the funeral that she said she had the miscarriage. So it was like you've already got people out over here saying this girl's not pregnant, and then you've got someone in here saying, I guarantee you she's gonna say she had a miscarriage in a couple days. Like everybody sees how she is. So Yeah. That's gotta mean something. I mean, people's intuition is especially with things like this. Yeah. Women's intuition in a situation like this, I feel like they know.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

Well, everything was pointing to she's not pregnant. The only thing that say was saying she was was her. There was no proof of that. And if I was dating somebody and I told them I was pregnant and that person questioned me, first of all, I would dump them. But second of all, I would immediately go get a test, take it, and show them right then and there I am pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

But yeah, you're right. You're right. You know, she never could do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

Yeah. I don't understand it. It's just I don't understand the lies. Um you know, unless you have something to hide, there's really no reason to lie. So you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

And she's plenty she's plenty smart to know how to defend herself and things like that. There there's there there wasn't a moment in time where I'm just like, she is just completely incompetent. She's unable to do things.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

There was never time that I thought that right.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:05

Yeah. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

I just thought she was able to do things maliciously.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

Right. Yeah. I think those have been the only redeeming qualities we've heard about her is that she's uh she's not dumb and um she's a that she's she's a ride or die kind of person. She's charismatic enough to get what she wants and to get people to like her uh long enough for her to get what she wants.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

So and and ladies, when I saw the interview, when they saw her and Sonic and they interviewed her, yeah and brought back the flashbacks as I was listening to her deny deny a few things. Uh just I could I could see the lies coming coming out like I used to.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:50

Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Her trying to talk her way out of things. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:57

Right, right. And then the minute things got a little like started, she started feeling a little bit of pressure, then she's like, I'm out, I'm leaving. Nope, not gonna do this. I've gotta go. So I don't know. I think anytime that you've been a suspect in a in a murder and two police officers come and or detectives, whatever, come and question you, uh, you know, at the end, she goes, if that's what this, if that's where this is going, then I've gotta go. Where do you think it's going? When two cops come and talk to you, where do you think it's a good thing?

SPEAKER_07 1:08:28

You think they're just there to ask you how your day is going, like girl checking in on you. But I think that's part of it too, of just like she's very smart, but I think in those moments, just kind of play dumb to kind of get a feel for it. So I mean, it's I mean, you're completely right. I mean, I didn't experience her in person, but you could see the wheels turning and her trying to figure out okay, how can I talk my way out of this? How can I, you know, you can see her working, she's working in that moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

The difference is early on she was dealing with Richard Wills. Now she was dealing with Cold Justice people.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:04

Very different. Richard Wills is like dealing with a five-year-old dangle a cookie in front of him, and he'll go, he'll go the other way.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

It was easy to schmooze him, but uh, that's not who she was dealing with with Cold Justice.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

And the NF Sheriff's Department is just so insulting to small towns. It is. It really is.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:27

And that, you know, we make a lot of small town cop jokes because of this, but it's like these people are the reason why those jokes are made. Because like there's very there's a lot of very good, very capable small town cops, and a lot of very smart ones that are like, hey, this is above our head, let's let's call in the Calvary. And then meanwhile, Richard Wills is just over here like, oh crap, I gotta work today. Like, I mean, what else do you think you signed up for? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

And ladies, in in two 2.5 seconds, if the the cops had any any uh any any great abilities for investigation, we we could have excluded immediately extra car tracks, extra foot tracks. Yep, yep. Uh we could have seen possibly where she is scampered around the around the living quarters.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:18

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, this was botched by the Bailey County Sheriff's Office. I mean, the second they showed up on the scene. It was they came in, you know, screeching tires, throwing dirt, and yeah, any tracks, any footprints that were there, gone. Wallet, phone, left all that there, computer all there.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

Do we know if they searched her vehicle?

SPEAKER_07 1:10:44

Nope. We don't believe they did.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

She may have written off in the sunset that it Yeah. Uh I I I just I think that she had enough time to know that she didn't want to be caught with it. Sure. Yeah, that she ditched it somewhere.

unknown 1:11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

Yeah, and I think that she just and this is all alleged, we don't know anything, but I think it was just as easy as did you do this? No, I didn't. When'd you get there this time? What'd you find? What happened? And then uh it was like there there was no questioning after she said, I think Brian probably did it, if she said that allegedly. But we do know that she implicated Brian, and then once that came up, it was never she was never part of the discussion again, as far as we can tell.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

And and I'm I'm sure it went something like this. Do you know anyone he's been in in conflict with?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

Right. 1000%. I think that's how it went. Yeah, and what we know, what brought that on? Well, I think Brian's in love with me, and and Wongo's jealous of that, and there was some some issues, you know. I'm just assuming that that's probably how it went. But yeah, do you know anyone who may have had some issues with him? Yeah, Brian. Okay, ding, ding, ding, we're done.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:00

Well, and I had looked it up because you know, you see so many of these shows that you watch, and everything is like they have the videos and the transcripts of those interrogations, and I'm like, where's the video and the transcript from this one? Because I looked it up, and according to oh crap, what is it? It's like the code of criminal conduct or something like that. And if it's in a murder situation, the interrogation has to at least be recorded like verbally, audibly, if not have a video recording of it too. I'm sure this is something that Richard Wills does not know. He probably has never even read that book. But I mean, where where's the recording? Where's where's the audio? Where's the visuals? Where's did you write it on a notepad? Like, where is anything from that conversation? Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

I mean, a sticky note, something. Come on, give it to me, Will.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:49

I mean, shoot, I would take it if he like wrote it on his hand. Like, give me anything. It's uh you can't you can't tell me that the first person on the scene who made the 911 call was interviewed and there was no trace of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:09

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:09

How can you do that? How can you do that without recording work is unsolved? Yeah, right, right. So I I would love to know if there is any of those notes or transcripts or anything out there because I want to know how these questions were asked and how that conversation went, because that could be very, very telling. So these are all things we're trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

Our only witness and we have nothing. Our only witness and we basically have a basic statement as it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:41

Right. Yeah, right. Well, still a lot, a lot to be done in this case.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:48

A lot to be done, but I feel like we're hopefully doing good about kind of building the narrative around who these people are. And you definitely had a lot of very very good information to kind of help build the the profile of what kind of person Jennifer was, because you know, the whole point of this is just to get people to see who these people are, and it's like, you know, you can make your own interpretation, but if this is what happened and these are the type of people that these are, it's kind of only pointing one direction. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

And I I have a quick quick question before we go. Um when you were dating her, did you was she teaching then, or where was she working?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

No, no, actually, we worked together for a brief moment in time. She was working for a guy who's selling insurance, so owned an insurance company. Okay, Bob, something or another, and I think he was out of slate. He was out of slate. He owned a so he owned a cellular one store. He sold his he sold his insurance, got got into Cellular One. Jennifer was working for him with the counter. I guess she was his uh the face for the business because it was very small.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:03

And he he was suffering with uh with competitive sell in the competitive sales market, and I was uh I was a pretty good salesman. I I sold cars and did auto finance, and uh she she asked me if I want to come work for them and try to help them out a little bit. So for a short time, me and a good friend of mine, Ken, that was also at the bar uh with me that saw her, that I kissed that guy. Uh we we worked for them for a short moment until they kind of closed shop from Cellular One.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

Okay, all right. I just wasn't sure that I'd asked that, so I didn't know she was quite in the teaching stage yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

She she did that, and then uh she she went on to a title company where she she was working for a home title company.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:48

Okay, all right. So her venture into real estate now is kind of on brand, on track, yeah. Well, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

And I think that she had only had some college at that particular time. And so when when I saw her like 14 years later, I was kind of kind of surprised that she had got her teaching degree and was was teaching. Uh that kind of surprised me.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:12

Yeah, I think a lot of people are surprised. But wow, okay. Well, thank you so much for talking to us. You you gave us a lot of good information, and um, we're just getting the word out there to our listeners to you know keep your eyes and ears open if you have any interesting stories or if you happen to know anybody involved, just let us know because we would like to talk to you if you would like to. Um, JC, we hope you're doing good and continue to do good, and we really appreciate all the information.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:42

Yeah, thank you so much for talking with us. This was really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:47

Ladies, hopefully uh we we gave something out there where we'll have a little more insight and keep doing what you're doing, and good things will happen. Keep your feet moving.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:58

We're trying we're gonna keep it going as long as we can and and see where I mean we would like to take this to trial, so we'll see if we get there. But if you if you think of anything else that you think will be helpful, you know where to reach us. And once again, we just really appreciate you talking to us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

Thank you for the time, ladies. It was it was it was a pleasure talking with you.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:18

Same to you. Well, we will hopefully talk again soon if we ever have any good news.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

Sounds great. That's all Jason. Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:27

Sounds good. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:29

Bye. Wow, right. He had a lot to say. He had a lot to say. Oh, you have a lot to say to the hungry dog. She's about to have a conniption.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:41

Wow. I mean, if we're trying to build a character profile, that yeah, pretty telling. Um, yeah, so that was our conversation with JC Dillard, who was an ex-boyfriend of Jennifer Sparkman prior to dating Wongo, but it sounds like everything that he encountered matches with what happened while she was with Wongo. So we really appreciate him talking to us. And if there are any other exes out there that want to tell us some stories or your interactions with it, or if you weren't an ex and you were just an acquaintance and you wanted talk, we just we want to hear your stories, and that just helps us kind of build the narrative around this. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:30

Any information, if you happen to be at Jake's 20 years ago and you know who you are, just uh you can email us at intoxicologypodcast at gmail.com and you can be um, you know, under the radar if you'd like.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:43

Like if you were those two guys at Jake's that went back to the house just FYI. Okay, I didn't know. Sorry, I was pretty vague. Just FYI. They do immunity deals. All you have to do is go to the police and say, I was there, this is what happened. I will I will tell you all of this if you don't take me to jail. They do things like that for people.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:06

So that's do it all the time. Turner in. So, all right, guys. Um, also before we uh part, I would like to say I want to dedicate this episode to CJ Peterson.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:19

Uh CJ was not only a close friend to so many people, uh, and a brother to uh my very good friend Courtney. Um he was a county constable, and I believe he had a security business after that. Uh, but I'm just an all-around great, wonderful guy. Everybody loved him. And we lost him this last week, and so the world will definitely be dimmer with without him in it. So anyway, CJ, this one's for you. And uh, I guess that's all we have. So uh guys, remember lock your windows, lock your doors, because every serial killer was somebody's neighbor. Love you guys. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:10

And we're back. Hey. Alright. What kind of drink do you have for us today, Whitney?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:20

It's a summer drink. It's a watermelon Dr. Pepper. And it's just about as simple as that. It's watermelon vodka. Um, the recipe showed the 99 proof. It's 99. Um brand. I couldn't think of the word. Um, and a Dr. Pepper. So, and you don't have to use the whole bottle or anything like that. You just do kind of your I guess uh flavor it to your discretion is up to you. It's at your discretion. That's what I was trying to say. Jeez, I'm brain dead today. And then you add your Dr. Pepper in on top of it, give it a little swirl, and there it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:16

Amazing. Alright, so let's take a little drink, click, and drink. It's not too hot baby. And it's it's I mean Dr. Pepper's a sweet drink and it makes it that much sweeter, I think for sure. But it is kind of refreshing at the same time. Yeah, flavored flavor with some bubbles in it. Yeah, carbonate carbonated jelly rancher. And I didn't even I bought like the little um small little spot bottles, and I didn't even use half of it. And I mean the flavor of watermelon is amazing. So, y'all give it a try. Let us know what you think. Maybe we can do like a watermelon cream after pepper or something like that. Yeah, it's pretty kind of cool. Well, we are mixologists, so we'll try it out. So let us know what y'all think and y'all enjoy the rest of y'all's next two weeks. See you next time. See y'all next time. Love you. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

Let's go enough on a Tuesday.

unknown 1:22:33

Gonna go well out to the new date.