From $7 an Hour to Seven Figures. Three Career Pivots That Made the Difference.

You can be the person who delivers every quarter, holds the team together, and still gets quietly skipped when the next role opens up. That gap is what we unpack with Vickie Rodgers, Senior Vice President of Cox Communities, as we talk about the real drivers of career advancement for women leaders in multifamily and beyond and what to do when “working hard” stops being enough.

We get specific about the accelerators most people never spell out: self-awareness that helps you manage the story in your head, emotional intelligence that makes cross-functional influence possible, and the discipline to treat feedback as useful data instead of a personal judgment. Vickie breaks down how strengths can turn into saboteurs, why perfectionism and people-pleasing can quietly shrink your executive presence, and how to take credit in a way that still honors your team.

We also dig into visibility and personal branding, including the idea that exposure and internal brand often outweigh performance in promotion decisions. You will learn how to build stakeholders, mentors, and true advocates, how to “power map” relationships up and across the organization, and how to network with purpose instead of burning yourself out. Finally, we tackle the missing 33 percent that blocks so many high performers: strategic thinking, financial acumen, and business-case skills that move you from leading people to leading the business.

If you want practical promotion strategy, leadership development tools, and a clearer path to influence, press play. Subscribe, share this with a woman who needs it, and leave a review so more leaders can find the show.

Connect with Multifamily Women®:

Multifamily Women® Summit: https://multifamilywomen.com/
Carrie Antrim on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrieantrim/
Be a Guest on the Podcast or at the Summit: https://apps.multifamilywomen.com/speakingrequest
Multifamily Women® Leadership Series: https://apps.multifamilywomen.com/join

Transcript

Welcome And The Overlooked Moment

SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right. Welcome to the Multifamily Women Podcast. I'm your host, Carrie Antrim. I want to talk to you today about how, you know, there's a moment in a lot of careers where a leader who's doing everything right seemingly gets looked over. You know, she's showing up on time, she's building the team, she's hitting the numbers, doing everything right, but then somebody else gets that promotion. And the leader that I have here in studio with me today is going to talk about the that exact moment, what that feels like, how to move through it, and just how to keep going after that happens. Um, she's one of the most senior women in this industry. And there was a point in her career where she almost did not get the role that she had earned and worked for. So today she's gonna walk us through uh the three things that she was missing and what changed when she figured them out. So today I'm really excited to welcome Vicki Rogers, Senior Vice President of Cox Communities. Vicki, welcome to the show. It's so nice to have you. Yeah, it's so nice to have you here in Arizona. Thanks for flying into the studio.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah. So listen, let's get started. Um, I want like beyond your what it says on your resume or your business card, tell us a little bit about what you do, you know, on the daily, what your life looks like right now in how that relates to multifamily.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Absolutely. So I'm the senior vice president of Cox Communities. But what that really means is we're really looking

What An SVP Really Does Daily

SPEAKER_00 1:25

at the external landscape to understand how things are changing from a competitive landscape, understanding our customers' businesses and how their businesses are changing. And as you know, through COVID and after, lots of change in the multifamily industry and the builder side, um, really understanding those unmet needs and building the strategy, products, et cetera, to optimize that opportunity where we bring value to our customers, to the consumers, and then back to Cox because we're filling that gap. And so a lot of what that means actually is uh really building high performance teams, right? Putting the right people in the right chair, uh, identifying the right skill sets and strengths that build that team. Secondly, really building high-influence relationships across the company to be able to align on the path forward and get the investments that we need, et cetera. And then being able to have enough business acumen to go understand how to build the business cases to launch new technologies, uh, new products, et cetera, to get the right return on investment.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

You know, I find it so interesting that you led with building the right teams because when you think of a company like Cox Communications, you think technology and infrastructure, like I mean, things beyond even my comprehension, but the fact that you're leading with people first is so impactful.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Absolutely. If you think about it, technology changes all the time. And at some point, technology's technology, right? The difference is uh the the leadership of the teams, what they bring to the table, how they take it to the next level, and the synergy amongst the team.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, absolutely. And I know that you are deeply invested in women and helping women advance and feel empowered and get that promotion, you know, that I kind of teased in in the opener. What led

Paycheck Shock And Career Grit

SPEAKER_01 3:12

that passion for you? What sparked that?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Well, it's interesting when you go all the way back. Uh, when I was about 20 years old, I was working as a receptionist making $7 an hour for Yale Forklift dealership. And there was this gentleman that was in sales that would come up and flirt with me every day. And I had grown up very conservative family, Christian school, et cetera. And the things he would say to me every day, I just dreaded it, right? Because he was over the top, the station, et cetera. And one day his paycheck fell out of the envelope. That was back when paychecks were manual, right? Uh-huh. And I realized he was making like 12 times more than I was, and I was in shock. And the first thing that went through my head is, you know, I'm smarter than he is. Uh-huh. Like I could do his job. And so what I did from that very beginning was um, you know, just made a different decision. Hey, I'm going to change my path. And to do that, I have to have a written career plan. So I went and talked to a lot of different folks, built out a plan, and started navigating over into sales.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Uh, and it took me almost two years to get my first sales job with SBI. Um, you know, which tied into some other times over the years that going from a $7 receptionist without a college degree, married at 18, uh-huh, um, to an SVP officer, there were a lot of times I got stuck in my career. Right. And after I would get unstuck and go to that next level, I would think, why didn't someone just help me with that or tell me?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Hindsight is so great, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

There's so many things that I wish I had known earlier that I, you know, my passion is to help other women not get stuck or not get stuck for so long, right? Because if you talk to women, 67% of women say they feel like they are working hard, they're they're doing a lot, you know, they get the pats on the back, they get the recognition, but they're not getting promoted and they're not sure how to navigate their path forward. And so I have a passion to help those women learn the things that people aren't telling them, the advice they're not getting in the career to navigate to optimize their full potential.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

And you learned that early. I mean, if you were in your early 20s, you said, that is brave. I mean, that had to take some courage, I would think. Well, was it hard?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

What's funny is I think I was just frustrated at first of like, how's the guy making this much more? Right. And so, you know, I was lucky that happened because I might have sat there for years, right? Right. Yes. And so uh another interesting story is after I navigated over, there was an opportunity that came up and I interviewed Ford at MCI. So they made me the offer. And then a week later he called me and said, Oh, Vicky, you know, I hate to tell you we were doing your background check and realized you didn't have a four-year degree. So that's a requirement for this job. We're gonna have to withdraw the offer.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

And at first I was devastated. I hung up the phone, but then I started thinking about it and I called him back and I said, Well, wait a second. You know, we went through the interview process. I interviewed with five people. Oh my goodness. The offer letter didn't say I needed a college degree. You never mentioned it. I think you need to give me at least a 90-day probation period and let me try. Wow. And amazingly, he did. Uh-huh. Um, and so, you know, it was one of those other things of sometimes you just gotta know what you want and be gritty enough to hang in there, right? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So you had that self-awareness, you know, internally to know, like, you know what? Wait, this isn't right. I'm I'm worth this, right? I can do this.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

I'm not sure it was I had so much self-awareness as you know, at that point. You had the guts at least. I would already quit my job and I couldn't pay my bills. I remember I was thinking, oh my goodness, I'm not gonna be able to pay my house payment, right? Oh my god, and so it was sometimes, you know, you get forced in the corner and it's that you need to make this work. Yep. And it gives you the courage to do things you wouldn't normally do. Um but I'm glad I did.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Well, yeah, clearly. And I'm sure you learned a lot along the way. Um so speaking of of self-awareness and whether or not you had it, I think you had more than you're giving yourself credit for, but but you you say that that is often the most underestimated career accelerator, accelerator for women.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Why is that? I think understanding your internal emotions and thoughts, because think about it, your your emotions become thoughts, your thoughts become actions,

Self-Awareness As A Career Accelerator

SPEAKER_00 7:35

even if they're micro expressions or it shows up in unusual ways. And um, you know, one of the things I've learned over the years is you have to conceive it first before anything can happen. So you have to conceive in your mind that it's possible. Secondly, you have to believe it before you can achieve it. And so if you can't even conceive yourself in a certain position or opportunity, you're never gonna get there.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

And that plays in with imposter syndrome, right? We talk about that a lot. Because if you can't even see yourself there because you don't think you've earned it or or you don't have that four-year degree, whatever it is, you know, whatever the society is telling you is wrong with you, right? You internalize that. Absolutely. How do you get over that?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Well, and I would just say if I can do it, anybody can do it. And there are a million stories out there. One of the things I've learned as I was becoming the women's ERG co-chair for Cox, we started doing a lot of interviews with executive women about their journey. And you know, I think a lot of people perceive that people start here and they end here, and it was just the straight line. Right. We're just perfect. Yeah. That is never, ever the case.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

I also feel like, especially in multifamily, it's very much not the case. You go up and down.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

We've all had toxic, scary bosses. We've all, you know, I've stepped on so many rakes myself where I did it to myself. Uh-huh. Um, and sometimes you just got to dust yourself off and get back up and keep going, right? And and keep navigating. And so the thought that it's a straight line is is never the case. But you have to be able to conceive that you can be there first. You have to believe. Uh, and then, you know, a lot of people think information is um, you know, is the key. Information is important, but information without action means nothing. So information is potential power, not power. Right. Action against information is power. Right. And so having a plan, knowing where you're going, taking little actions toward that plan, getting feedback from lots of other people who have been there before that can help you, and being willing to take feedback is really important. That's that's the one thing I notice when I'm mentoring women is someone gives them feedback and it just crushes them and they spin and they think I'm like, you know what? Feedback's a gift. Yeah. Anytime somebody gives you feedback, don't be defensive. Just say thank you for the feedback. You don't have to take it, you don't have to believe it, but it's better to get it and know what people think than not know.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yes. And that's hard, that's a hard pull to swallow, I think. Cause you know, there's been plenty of times where you get feedback and then you sit in your car and cry for 20 minutes from that feedback, right? So getting over that and just being like, oh yes, okay, well.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Well, and knowing that that's one of the ways that you work. I'm always gonna ask for feedback, right? The more you do it, the more you take it as just data points and information. Yeah. Not not as a judgment.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Right. It doesn't mean that's who you right. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. So, and that a lot a lot of that correlates to emotional intelligence and having that high skill set level at work is very important. Um, how does that show up in senior levels, not just as a soft skill, but like making you the leader that people want to follow?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Um, emotional intelligence is a key driver of being successful as you go up. And here's

Emotional Intelligence That Gets Promotions

SPEAKER_00 10:44

why I would say, I mean, if you think about there's what, four components to emotional intelligence: recognizing your own emotions, uh, being able to manage those emotions and not react, uh, recognize emotions in others and having some empathy toward why they may be feeling that way. And then, you know, that lubrication of social uh development and relationship cross-functionally. And if you think about it, the higher you get in your role, the less is about execution and the more is about your influence and about scope and your knowledge and critical thinking skills, right? And so the ability to build relationships cross-functionally with people who may think very differently than you, that have different agendas and priorities than you have, and to gain alignment and to move something forward is huge. Right. If you don't have strong emotional intelligence, that's never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Um, and emotional intelligence is a much higher indicator of promotability and success than IQ. Um, you know, yeah. If you think about AI now, a lot of things we used to worry about with IQ are getting somewhat solved. Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

But what it doesn't solve is the whole relationship and influence and what that can mean overall. And so that's becoming more and more important. And I can't think of a secession planning session I've been in or a talent management uh meeting we've had where we've talked about talent director and up where um either EQ was what made the difference of them being seen as highly promotable, or EQ stopped them from being in that pool of people we were gonna spend more money on because they had some triggers or lids that were just causing them not to be part of that set. And so it's it's a big driver in those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

And now, if you're giving feedback to someone, is that kind of how you're framing it? Do you tie that in when you're doing this with your employees? You know, or mentor mentors.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

One, just people understand themselves a little bit better. And so, whether that be saboteurs, uh EQ, etc. Um, secondly, building those high-influence relationships and having a stakeholder map and being really intentional about who we're meeting with and when and how you have those meetings so that you build long-standing relationships so that you need when you need to pick up the phone and say, Hey, I really need your help, right? It doesn't feel like you're just asking for help. You already have the relationship in place.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Um, executive communications and executive presence is really key, not just internally, but externally in our work. And then lastly, the whole landscape keeps changing. And so that business strategic and financial acumen is always very important. You know, next best dollar spent, dollar invested versus return. What does that mean? What are the best decisions? Where do we start? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, absolutely. Um, you mentioned quickly saboteurs. I want to go back to that because many powerful women, high-ranking, we work against ourselves, right? And I'm just wondering, you know, what you see in your daily work. Uh what are the saboteurs that you're seeing? Is it perfectionism? Is it this imposter syndrome? Is it people pleasing? What is it that's keeping women where they are?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Let's put it in two different sets of information. With the saboteur, sometimes that's just the flip side of your strength. Okay, go into that. What what do you mean? So uh one of my strengths is I'm an achiever, which means I am I am gonna

Saboteurs And The Visibility Gap

SPEAKER_00 14:23

take the hill every time. Uh-huh. I'm always gonna exceed my numbers. I'm gonna have high performance, right? Okay. The flip side of that is my saboteur would be I can become a bulldozer, right? Oh, I see. Okay. If I feel like someone's getting in my way or something they're saying doesn't make sense, detracting from me getting to the goal, I tend to want to do this. Right. Just keep going. And so that would be the saboteur. So many times your strengths that helped you get to a certain point in your career sometimes become the saboteurs after a certain point if you can't balance it. Um, the flip side of what you were talking about with perfectionism and some of the others, there's probably about 12 or 13 things that women tend to do that are a little different than men. Um, I unfortunately sometimes have both sides. I have some of the male triggers, right? Some of the female. But with women, a lot of times one of the biggest things is not getting enough visibility and sharing your story about your work.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

And if you watch women at work, and we're taught this, right? Socially, don't brag. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Be humble, keep your head down. Be humble.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

The problem is if no one knows anything about your work, including your own boss, then you're not gonna get merchandised appropriately. And there's uh a theory out there called Pi Theory, um, which was a professor years ago. And what it says is if you look at when people get promoted, um, most people think performance is 70, 80 percent of it. It's actually about 10%.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Um 40% is image or brand, internal brand, what you're perceived as. Right. And the majority of it is actually exposure. Wow. Because people don't advocate for people that they don't know what impact their work has had. Yeah. And so you may have two people that may have similar skill sets and backgrounds, but if the one person is getting more exposure of their work and telling their story more effectively, those are the folks that get the next roles, especially if they have advocates in the room that are speaking on their behalf.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

And it makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Oh, that is um fascinating. So, so okay, so we we started with some self-awareness. We talked about that, and then having the emotional intelligence and now the saboteur. So once a woman is able to identify, like, this is my saboteur, how do they harness that or channel that energy for good? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

You know, this is gonna sound so silly, but one thing that's always worked for me, and I've seen other people use this, and uh, a couple executive coaches I've seen have used it with people is name it. Okay. Um, and so with me, it was Vicky the Vixen or Vicky the Victor. Oh, I love that. When I could feel myself wanting to just roll over someone, you know, I would I would say it in my own head of like you need to chill, right? Um, and so just one identifying it and naming it and know it's a tendency. Yeah, that alone takes you a huge length because a lot of times when people are doing things like that, they're just totally unconscious of it because they're just kind of hardwired that way, right? Right. Yeah. And so they tend to just go there. Yeah. Um, so the naming it, um a lot of times sharing with two or three people that are close confidants of yours to say, hey, I'm really working on XYZ. Would you sit in this meeting? And if you see me go on there, will you give me X signal? Right. So they remind you. Yeah. Um, and that's very helpful. Um, the other thing is just keeping notes as you go into meetings of watching yourself, right? And writing down, did I do what I planned to do? Was I intentional to you know?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So name it, have some other folks watching for you, yeah. Uh, and just be very intentional and conscious.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah, I love that. That's cute, though, on each shoulder, like the angel and devil, you know. Um, so I wanted to talk a little bit about confidence versus clarity. So is confidence really the issue, or is it more about having clarity over, you know, everything over the the impact that you make and the value that you bring?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

That's a tough question because I think both are really important.

Build Your Brand Narrative Intentionally

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Um I mean, it's certain it certainly takes a level of confidence to, like you said, build your own brand within your organization and talk about the great things you're doing. Because for a lot of women, that's hard. Like you said, we were raised to be humble. Just keep your head down, do your job, and you'll be recognized. But you're saying that's not really the case anymore.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

And it really doesn't, it doesn't work. Yeah. Um I with the confidence piece, I think part of it is practicing. So being very intentional with one, I think defining what your value is and really doing some deep work around what am I uniquely prepared to do? What are my superpowers and what do I bring to the party that no one else does, or my team, right? Because it can be your team, you can talk about it as your team, not just you. Right. Um, so one, taking the time to identify that. I love the strengths finder. Yeah. Um, because I think the way it buckets it into certain areas and helps you understand the uniqueness of what you bring. Um, so I think understanding what your strengths are, I think being very intentional and building your brand narrative. Because if you think about your brand narrative, it's really just what people say about you when you're not there. Right. Right. And many times it's just two or three words. And so if you're not intentional, then people fill in the blanks how they want. That is true. And I'll give you um a key story. So Betsy Magnus training is one of the higher level leadership trainings that the women in cable technology has. And we were at a session and we had all been done a 360 on our brand. And this was a couple years after the story I'm gonna share at the event happened to me where I realized my brand wasn't what I thought. Uh-huh. And I had worked on it for two or three years. So mine came back pretty aligned. It was spot on uh of the senior team members that I had surveyed. Yeah, they had done that. After you had been working on it for a couple years. Okay, all right. But there were probably 18 or 20 of us in the room. A big chunk of those women were shocked when they got the feedback.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

A couple people even cried because they were so they thought how they were were perceived was one way, and the feedback they got was totally different. And so you have to be really intentional, you have to be consistent, and you have to weave it into what's important to the company overall, right? Because you may have a strength of X, you've got to translate it in what matters to the North Star of the company and what the priorities are, so that you can tie it into here's why my team matters or what the work I'm doing matters. Um, an example would be one of the strengths I have is maximizer, which means I'll take something, make it as big as it can be. Um, but that also could be growth. And so we started tying back to we're the growth engine for residential, right? Yeah. Right. And what are the things we're doing to add value to our customers, grow new areas of product, new offerings, expansion, etc., that would be the growth engine for the company. Right. And so tied that one piece back into one of the top three mantras for the company overall. So understanding what you bring to the table, being very intentional on how you say it and build your story, and take time to do it. It takes hours to work through this stuff and think through it and doing it in a team environment's good. Um, and then making sure you're consistent with what you're saying and how you tie it.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

And then another important thing you mentioned on one of our calls was having stakeholders, like having advocates in your corner. And like you said, having some people in the meeting that are like, hey Vicky, chill out, whatever, you know, whatever that signal is. Like, um, how do you build those relationships within your, you know, your community at work?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

So I would say two or three things. People tend to mix up mentors, stakeholders, and allies. Okay. They're very different. And okay, to me, um every year my leadership team, we map out who our key stakeholders are. And the stakeholders are typically people that you truly are intermeshed

Stakeholders Mentors And True Advocates

SPEAKER_00 22:36

with to get an end goal that helps you do your work, right? Okay. And so um, you know, we've got responsibility for new build and multifamily. And so outside plant construction is a key stakeholder of ours. Right. And so we who are the key people each one of us is meeting with on a monthly basis, having one-on-ones, having staff meetings, standing meetings that we're very connected. We know what's important to them. They know what's important to us. And we're winning together, right? So those are stakeholders.

SPEAKER_04 23:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Um and so you know you may want to think about that whether it be in your marketing team, your finance team, operations team, whatever whatever those key stakeholders are, they help you get your work done more effectively. Okay. Mentors are someone who's giving you advice behind closed doors, right? The one mistake I see women make a lot of times with mentors is they go find a buddy that's their level. Ah. And it's nice and they enjoy it. Right. But they're not getting as much as they could. Right probably that's more like a girlfriend, right? It is more like a girlfriend. Sometimes they get bad advice from them. It's better to go up a couple levels into um a couple organizations that you're interested in being in long term. So you get a different level of feedback and advice.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

That makes sense. If you're going to someone who's you know levels ahead of you where you aspire to be that makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

And you know people are afraid to make those calls but most people want to help other people. Yeah. And they're very willing to meet it may take a minute to get on the calendar. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

But usually they're more matter of fact they're usually flattered right yeah which is so funny because you know thinking of someone at a lower level that could be so intimidating someone calling you and being like Vicky could could we have lunch maybe you know that's it's very intimidating.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

But you expect it and it's it's really not a big deal and most people are more than willing to do it. Like I said it may take a minute to get on the calendar because things may be right now. Most people want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

The toughest one I think is building advocates and you you know a mentor you can kind of pick and select and stakeholders are kind of a given right advocates you build over time and you have to do it through credibility. And so many times with the advocates I think that's the toughest relationship for people to make those first calls on and have the consistency with um and you know one way to do that is just say hey I'm reaching out to you because you know I'm working on X project that's important to the company with your background and some of your perspective I think you can give me some guidance and thoughts that maybe I wouldn't come up with on my own. Would it be okay if I booked you know an hour you know in May to talk to you about this. Okay. And then after you make the first meeting now one be ready right to have a meaningful discussion. But then ask them, hey, would it be okay if every four to six weeks we got together and talked about this and very unusual for somebody to say no most likely they're going to say yes. And what happens is over time you gain rapport. You get to know them personally they get to know you they get to see how your critical thinking is what how you're making decisions. Part of it's just asking them good questions. Right. Hey here's how I'm thinking about this am I thinking about this right is there something else I could should consider what are the risks that you see right yeah so just asking good questions yeah and just that exposure. And then at a later point you know when you are in that room and they're talking about talent the name comes up right and they feel comfortable advocating for you. Right. Because you know we all want to think it's all um scientific and precise on how we get measured it's it's not. Yeah a lot of subjectivity to it.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

And so if you're tied to the right people it helps you a lot in those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Well and then that advocate has kind of skin in the game too because they've helped you build something or they they have provided you this information to help you advance so they want to see you do well. Right. Because some of it's directly from them, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Abs absolutely and it's it's interesting to me there there have been a couple people who I've seen come up in those conversations but I didn't know it was going to come up and so I wasn't fully prepared. But even their own boss may not step in for them right or anybody in their line and you're like you know I've seen some good things but is there something they they know that I don't know and so you you hesitate a little bit right because you want to feel pretty comfortable with whoever advocating for political capital. Yeah absolutely and so how does that all combine with networking because networking is totally different right you know I and maybe it's just because as I get older I'm like I if I'm networking I'm networking with a purpose. Okay. I don't network to network because I see a lot of women wear themselves out going all over town oh yeah meeting with all these social groups having drinks doing this and I'm not sure it matters at all. If I'm going to network I'm going to network with a purpose for certain people I'm trying to connect with um there's certain information I'm going to share and I also think it's personality right I would rather be in a one-on-one setting or a small group setting than a group of a hundred people I don't know where I'm you know trying to work the room and setting I I think the networking goes back to building stakeholders allies advocates and mentors versus randomly meeting people.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Right in some staged yeah event. Yeah no that that um can definitely be exhausting I like that you go with a purpose um you know exactly what you want to accomplish and then it then it tells you if it's going to be worth your time or not.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Your purpose may be that I need a a a group of ladies that I enjoy being around and that's fine too just know that that's your intention yeah and your purpose because I think that's important too just to be able to laugh about things that have happened at work or oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Well that always helps right that's where the girlfriends come in handy. Okay so let's talk about you mentioned um in one of our pre-calls power mapping and what does it mean to build relationships up across and beyond and where do women tend to overinvest or underinvest?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

What I found is a lot of women tend to build their networks either at their level or below their level. Okay. And they might be able to get some stuff done with that because if you know the guy who does the billing changes or whatever, right? You might be able to get something done. But the reality is you you need to manage that upward so that if you if you need to to influence a really big change and I'll give you an example

Power Mapping And Networking With Purpose

SPEAKER_00 28:56

um we had been looking at some products to pre-enable broadband for a bit but we didn't have the business case done uh we didn't have financial approval we didn't have the product completed except and then COVID hit right and then there's fear of uh crossing threshold and people getting sick and things happening um based on some relationships that had already built at a pretty high level I went to three or four key people at an EVP level and said look you know here's the situation here's the impact to our builders and our customers we would like to launch this without the product being done without the financials being approved and the answer was yes but had I not had already built the credibility relationships and a track record with some other things there's no way they would have taken that route yeah no that's pretty scary and great just reached out and made that connection either because you have to do that six, 12, 18 months ahead before you really need it. Yeah. The problem is people want to make that call in the moment versus after they've built the relationship long term. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

And that's that's where it's key right yeah and that's where all your hard work came in from before you know with your advocates and your stakeholders and building all that the the purposeful networking and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

You know it's not that glamorous right it's it's the preparing and meeting once a month and doing that for a long term and it takes a while before you see the payoff although you do get a lot of great advice if you ask good questions you do with the right people and yeah there is some enrichment to it.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah that's great. Okay so I want to talk about access and you know you mentioned that most women like their networks they're networking here or below how do they increase their proximity to the higher level or to the decision makers to where they need to be and get over that intimidation factor or whatever it is that's keeping them here or or below how do they well um two different ways I would think one your career planning is a great reason to do that.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I would reach out and say hey I've been working on my long-term career plan and really admire the work that you've done. I've always been impressed by your teams and the impact you have on the business. Would you mind sitting down with me and letting me share with you what I'm thinking about and get your feedback and advice. Now is this someone within the organization or just any when you're in the organization I'm talking use that to go two or three levels up and across.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

So I would use that to get to people I'm not in front of right now. Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Um so that's one because of no one says no to that. Right. People always love to give advice about crew yes right and tell you their story. Yeah all that. Yeah. Um the second way is what I'd mentioned earlier is hey I'm working on this new project as you know you know with A B and C being our priority as a company I think this had potential for a lot of impact. I've always admired what you've done with XYZ would you mind sitting down with me and me sharing what we're doing and get your feedback and guidance and support. Most people are going to say yes. Again it would take a little bit to get on the calendar yeah but after you get in there once it's much easier to go ongo and then you just say would it be okay if we met every six weeks to just do a quick connect and update each other.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Um and most people are going to say yes and if you have somebody says no move on. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, plenty of other fish in the sea. What about for women who maybe work in smaller organizations where there aren't the many levels you know how how would they if they don't feel like they there is someone that they could go to I I would do the same.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Matter of fact to me a smaller org I would go right to the top. To the top um well you tell me if someone's in your org right and um you know they're they're trying to make a bigger connection let's say there's 30 or 50 people um if they reached out to you and said they want to talk about their career plan would you meet with them? I would be honored. I would love that yeah yeah I'd be happy to so I I don't think the size of the organization matters so much. I think it's I think it's sometimes a little bit easier in a bigger organization because you can have multiple people advocating and you can have multiple people behind the scenes that you know um are your cheerleaders and want you to do well. Yeah but I think it works in any size organization.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Okay. So you mentioned you you asked me the question you know if someone came to me I would I would love that I would be so honored. As women we are I think just internally we're givers how do you as a woman and you said you know you mentioned like it might be hard to get on the calendar we're everybody's so busy especially in multifamily all over the place traveling all over the country conferences whatever you name it how do you balance doing that mentorship or advocating but still you know not give too much or more than overextend?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

It's pretty amazing. I mean a lot of people don't ask for it and so usually you can manage or if you feel like you're too overwhelmed, get them with someone else, right? That you know can add a lot of value to um I and and what I would say

Executive Presence And Taking Credit Well

SPEAKER_00 34:11

is the the flip side of that I think what women tend to do is too much of the work around the office or in the corporation that uh doesn't get the points if that makes sense. And so they end up taking a lot of you know uh event planning and this, that and the other that um you know causes them to have an extra burden that they're carrying but it really doesn't get points when you're looking at that next opportunity or some of the things. So I think being careful around that especially especially coming from the South I see this a lot in Atlanta where sometimes the female executives will go get coffee for somebody or go fix their plate or don't don't do that because it subconsciously takes away from hey you do have a seat at the table you are equal to you and you know um move up and take space and um years ago we had a meeting and one of my leaders had put together an incredible business case on growing revenue and changing a segmentation and doing some stuff and but she also did some of those things and when we were leaving instead of saying wow incredible business case how impactful we're excited about this it was like oh you were such a good hostess. Uh-huh and it just kind of hit me I was like oh you know because it was a lot of work to get there and what they remembered was the food and she had yeah. And what an internal struggle it is for for those of us who are built that way.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

And yes accommodating and you want everyone to have a great time and enjoy the coffee and the whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

But you also don't want to take away from your impact. Yes because that hurts you and your team and so it's it is a balance and you have to be somewhat conscious of how things come across because if you if you think about executive presence it's mostly just body language is how you leave someone else feeling right and so in the first seven seconds we were talking you decided if you thought I was approachable incredible right like our brains just do that. Yeah um you decided did I make eye contact the way it should yeah do I pause and let you know the point land um do I look like I'm comfortable right and so the same things happen when you're in any conference room with people and if you're doing too many things that distract from the executive presence you're trying to show it it can hurt you. Even if it's unconscious to others. So absolutely and how do you like where are you seeing women's communication styles being misinterpreted or misunderstood I think you know there there's a balance between you want to give others credit and you want to share the credit for big impacts especially with your stakeholders um but when you um take no credit at all or say oh well it was just the team or it was just X, then you know there's a way to balance that to where um you're accepting the congratulations or the feedback and including others. And so I think that balance is is really important. Yeah um because sometimes it'll be like oh no that was just such and such and people believe them. It's like oh okay I didn't realize they they did it then. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Like no it was both. Yeah yeah so and what um there's a mindset mindset shift that has to happen to help women move from being maybe the smartest person in the room to the most influential like you don't maybe you don't have to be the smartest person in the room you just know how to need to know how to move people and be influenced. What is that mindset?

SPEAKER_00 37:53

That's interesting two two of the 12 things that women do a lot is one a lot of times they are deep subject matter experts and so they go very deep in their subject. The second is perfectionism and so they may overinvest in tiny details that at the end of the day if they had just handed it off they would have been fine. Right. And stepping back and going, okay, what's happening in the bigger room who needs to be influenced what does that look like and so being careful not to get caught in those traps of okay let me spend 10 more hours to make this perfect versus

Influence Without Authority Through Framing

SPEAKER_00 38:28

no let the team run with it and you think about the next move strategically in the organization to move it forward. Um and then if you're seen too much as the subject matter expert they don't see you as a true strategic leader.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Then it's like then you're pigeonholed into that one thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

That one thing and then if this opportunity comes up over here that's not in that space it's like oh well she's really just a deep expert. And so you have to balance that out and be careful of that piece of it.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Um and what if you don't have authority what if you're not a senior executive but you but you feel like you have the influence or you know you're great at leading teams how what do you do at that point?

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I think part of it is just doing your homework and making sure when you come in I mean one of the key things that you can do is add value by sharing your knowledge and information of saying hey let me paint the picture for you of what's happening with customers, what's happening in our competitive landscape, XYZ, and then let them make the decision. So they're still the decision makers, but you have laid out the landscape for them and you've led them down the path, the same path you went down to come to a certain conclusion. That's actually one of the most freeing things I ever realized is at one point I was so worried about going in the senior team and it was a big decision. I thought, oh if we make the wrong decision, here's what's going to happen. And at the end of the day I'm like, that's not my job. It's their job to decide. Yeah. It's my job to share what I know so that they can make an informed decision.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

And so if you share what you know to help them make an informed decision, then at that point they own the outcome. Right. Because they made the decision. Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

That's brilliant actually because you know the the in multifamily the the people who are boots on the ground working with the customers every day in the leasing offices or on site, you know, doing all these things, they're gonna have insight that the execs aren't don't have you know aren't privy to. So if you come to them with like hey this is what I'm seeing over and over and over again happen or whatever, here's an opportunity then you let them one I would say give yourself enough white space on your calendar that you step back and go, what am I observing?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Why does it matter and what's the impact it has on the business. That's true. When you can take it to that point and you've got those observation think how much money we all spend on research. Oh yeah. They're the perfect researchers they're right there talking to the customers every day. So if they take the time to really capture that, understand what impact it has on the business and a way to articulate then suddenly they lift themselves right because that's valuable information. Yeah. But if you come in and you're just frustrated and you seem overly emotional. Right. Well this just keeps happening and we should do it. Yeah. Then it's just a complaint and then it seems like you're just complaining and you're frustrated versus no yes here's what we're seeing from our customers here's what would happen if we change it and the outcome it can have.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Yeah absolutely framing is everything at that point. Yeah yeah now um I want to talk about the missing 33% that you talk about. Financial business and strategic acumen why does this area trip up so many high performing women what is it and how why is it tripping us up?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

So what's interesting when you look

The Missing 33 Percent Business Acumen

SPEAKER_00 41:33

at um stages of a career you've got individual performers then you've got leader of people and then from there you go to transformational leader. And so you know individual performance you know if you're showing up on time you've got a good attitude you're a good team player and you have good work right you're going to show up well. Yeah. Then leading teams typically women do very well there they have strong empathy they they are great communicators they build alliances with people et cetera right and so leading people is important. Where you see women drop off they are a little bit behind and the manager being promoted and a little bit behind becoming directors a little bit. Okay. There's a huge drop off after direction to the VP and typically the reason is you know you go from leading people to leading the business. So you're making decisions that are what other market should we be in? What what's a competitors doing what products do we need that we don't have yeah what is the investment versus the return? How long will it take us to get up so if you don't have that last piece you can only go so far because to lead the business you need that. Right um you know it was one of the things for me I shared with you earlier I didn't go to college right so financial stuff and some of the business cases were very intimidating for me. And at one point I realized if if I don't dig in and learn this and figure it out, I'm not going to the next level even if you did go to college those things are still very intimidating. It is and it's it's funny because people say oh well that's just not me and I said well that's fine but if you want to keep that line it's it's gonna have to be right and it's not like you have to be the deep expert in everything but um you know have some allies in the business your friends in finance and say hey you know help me think about this. Well what questions would you ask? What do I need to be thinking about? Yeah what would the assumptions be? Or if I have these assumptions, what haven't I thought about? Yeah. So just starting together and and have them go in with you right build it together.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Well and now as you mentioned earlier with AI we the world is literally at our fingertips. You can get answers to any questions and you can get you know those questions answered quickly and absolutely you know there's a lot of help out there.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Sometimes though even with that knowing how it gets done inside of a company might be different. Oh for sure what are the typical processes how do they like to hear it what are their buzzwords look at it because you can look at business cases a lot of different ways yeah and so understanding the Norm of the last three business cases that got approved, how did they do it?

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Yeah, why exactly?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

One of the things I learned early on is to trial stuff first. Uh-huh. Well, get funding just to do the trial to prove it out. That way it's much easier to get through. And that's true, right? So just figuring out what the norm is for your company.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

And looking at what other people have done to be successful in those areas.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Um, so if if a woman masters this 33%, it could materially change the trajectory of their entire career. Absolutely. Um, what is are there certain questions she should be asking in every meeting? Or, you know, what's the most important thing?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Just digging in to learn more. And so if if I were in those roles, so again, I said director, you know, it's it's a little bit different, but it's close. When you go to VP, only 30% of VPs are are women. Okay. SVP is only 30%. CEO, it's less than 10%, I think. Or more than 10. So there is a huge drop-off. Yeah. Um I one of the things is just being curious. You know, go meet the strategy people and say, hey, from your perspective, what are the things that we need to be thinking about over the next five to 10 years? What are our biggest risks in the business? What do you see happening from a regulatory perspective? Go meet with your key finance people a couple levels up and say, when you look at the business, what do you think are the most important key business measures you're using and why? Um, what are the biggest risks for us? Like just start asking who have those areas, deeper questions. Go ask your boss's boss, say, Hey, would you mind me? I'm trying to work on my business acumen. Would you mind me asking you, what do you think are some of the most important business areas or key business um activities we have and why? Um, what do you think about customer experience and what's happening there? You know, just ask questions. That's probably the best way. And you will learn so much from asking questions of those different business leaders. You know, one of the things I think I how I learn most of my business acumen is asking good questions of my customers. So I shared with you I got the MCI job. And so one of the things I learned really quickly, I thought, oh, I've got this 90-day probation. If I don't do well soon, I'm not gonna be here. Right. And so I went and figured out what the best sellers were doing, and they just had more appointments, more proposals, and more sales. So I'm like, okay, I need more, I need more appointments. And so I started just three hours a day calling for appointments. Well, the more business people you meet with customers, you ask them good questions, you learn so much about business. Oh, that's how they think about it. Here's why they're doing that. What you know, great question is over the next three to five years, what are our number three and four priorities and why?

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

What's driving that? Right. Why is it so important? What are some of the risks of us not getting there and why? What could stop us?

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Right? Just asking really, really good questions.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Well, not only is that making you smarter and you know more in tune to what's happening in the entire business, but when you're doing that internally, as you said, with the different leaders from you get to know people, and it signals to me, you know, as an executive, if I see someone doing that, I'm like, well, this woman really wants to know, like she's really invested. Right. Love that, you know, that shows because there are the the um, you know, the people that just want to show up every day, do a good job, go home. That's fine. That there's a place for that. And then there's the ones that want to learn and invest in their own growth and move up. And if I see that as a leader, I'm like, yes, that's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

And people don't realize this, but you're interviewing for the next job every day, right? Right. So signals like that where you're trying to learn and grow, uh, you're building relationships cross-functionally, um, looking at the big picture versus your own area. So this is one thing I see a lot at that director level. It's all about what do I want and what I'm trying to accomplish versus okay, what's the best thing for the company overall? And what are the puts and takes across the organization for making this happen? Right. And are we making the right bigger decisions? Right. So looking at that, that's one thing. But now there's so much online now.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Anything you want to learn, yeah. You there's podcasts, there's books, uh, there's interviews that you can go see. There's so many um articles. I think about what you guys do. You put out a lot of great information. People can go read it, watch things online, come to events, right? Go to industry events, read industry trade magazines.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

You can there's all the certifications. We have a change management certification, which a lot of women are are enrolled in and are showing interest. I think that's great. You really have the ability to take control of your own career path, I think, at this point. You just gotta go take action. Right. And that goes back to the very beginning of our podcast where you have to be aware of what you want and be able to see it, which is hard. Right. You know, sometimes that's hard to do. So I think that that it comes full circle. Absolutely. What you said. Well, we're coming up on our time. Is there anything we didn't talk about that we should have or any final thoughts? You're gonna be at the Women's Summit. I'm very excited about that. And so we didn't spoil anything that you're gonna talk about there. This is kind of like, I mean, everything we touched on could be its own podcast, really, right? So this was just kind of a high-level overview of everything. But um, what else do we need to know? Any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 49:14

You know, I would I would land back at where we began, right? Decide what you really want. Make a different

Decide Act And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 49:21

decision, set your standard, and then start doing little actions every day, every week, every month that get you there. And be gritty, right? Like little things will feel like setbacks. Sometimes it'll take a long time, but if you know where you're going, over time you will gradually get there. You may have some ups and downs, just like everybody. Right. Um, but if you know where you're going, you're gonna get there. But if you don't know where you're going, you're gonna float around. Over time, you're gonna get bored or frustrated and things will happen and you won't make the traction you think you'll will. So make the decision, um, believe you can achieve it, and start taking action toward what you want.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Yeah, I love that. I've interviewed women who have even created job positions within their company that didn't exist, right? Because they've they did the internal work, they figured out what where the what their strengths are, what they're good at, where they could lead the best, and they said, This is what I want to do. This doesn't exist yet, but here you go. Here's my solution to this that you didn't even know we needed. Right. Here I am, right? Which I think is incredible. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, um, as I said, we're gonna see you at the summit in September. Very excited. Thank you again for being here and sharing all this time with us. Um, we'll have in the show notes where they can reach out to you if they want further information. But uh thanks again for being here.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Thanks so much, Kelly. This was great.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Multifamily Women podcast. It's great to have you listening, watching wherever you are. If you don't have your ticket yet to the summit, do that now, multifamilywomen.com. You can learn all about it. And we can't wait to see you there. We'll see you in the next episode.