Colleen O'Callaghan - A Lifelong Dedication to Dance and Wellness

Colleen O'Callaghan has been a professional ballet dancer since the age of 16 and continues her remarkable journey at the age of 64. Her life's passion has been the art of ballet, where she has honed her skills and embodied the grace and discipline it demands.

Today, Colleen's mission extends beyond the stage. Her goal is to share her knowledge and expertise with others, helping them to discover the transformative power of movement. With a profound understanding of body mechanics, Colleen teaches individuals how to sit, stand, walk, and lie down correctly, achieving a harmonious balance of body and mind through proper vertical alignment.

Colleen's unique approach involves using the Zena Rommett Floor Barre Technique®, which emphasizes the importance of the floor as a teacher and the mind-body connection as a guiding force. With a strong internal focus on the mind, she encourages her students to listen attentively to what their bodies are whispering, allowing them to unlock their full potential.

Join Colleen on this journey of self-discovery and wellness, and experience the profound benefits of her expertise in achieving a balanced and harmonious life."

Thank you for listening to The TuTu thin Podcast

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www.dawntheodore.com
www.tututhin.com 
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Thank you to Matt Miller @ Smacky Media Group

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:49

Welcome to the Two Tooth In Podcast. My name is Dawn Smith Theodore, and I'm so excited today to welcome my friend Colleen O'Callahan. And um, she was with American Ballet Theater, and she's been a teacher for many years. Um, and I'd just like her to tell you a little bit about her journey and where she is today. And so welcome, Colleen. Thank you for being here with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Uh, Dawn, thank you so much for having me. It's kind of fun, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So tell us a little bit about your background and you know, your journey to become a dancer.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Okay, so stop me if I go off track. Okay, I'll I'll start from what I remember was I was in a family of seven children. I was in the middle and six girls and a boy, and we had the opportunity to take different swimming or music or something. And um when I guess I was about seven or eight, I had to choose between swimming and dancing, and that was an easy choice because I didn't ever have any friends at swimming, and so I chose dancing, which I loved, and just kept doing it and doing it and doing it, and I there was nowhere I would rather be than in a studio, and it certainly made for um an easy way to get out of what was going on at home, which was a lot of school, homework, housework, you know, chaos. And three of my older sisters, and then the two three younger, I was kind of stuck in the middle. So I was either not with the older group, not with the younger group, unless it had to do with chores or something else. And I think they were just happy to have me go to dancing instead, you know. Um, oh, just leave, leave us alone, go to the studio, dance. And I was I was happier at the studio weekends. I didn't dance on Sunday, which we normally didn't. I was like, get me out of here, let me go to the studio. So I did that. I went to a school that was an open school, so I was allowed to leave school maybe 11:30 every day. I danced with the Louisville Ballet, we were pre-profession, pre-professional, and we would dance every day till from 1 p.m. until 9 p.m. And on weekends, and we did performances, and um some really good mentors that um as we got older, I think I was older, 15 or 16, um they told my parents we think she should go to New York. And um so I did. I went to Joffrey for a summer on a scholarship that Mr. Joffrey gave me. That was kind of cool. And then the next summer I auditioned for ABT school, and it was so much harder to get into that that I thought, well, I'll take that school, I'll go there that summer. So my mother drove me to New York, and um I stayed for the summer, both summers actually, lived at the Millbank House, which was a house for women, um, young women, and loved it. New York was my home from the second I got there. And um at the end of the summer with ABT scholarship class, I was asked to, I joined the second company during that time. But then during the second company run, I was asked to do some work with ABT, the main company, because at the time Barishnikov, he was not director, but he was dancing with us and he had set the nutcracker. And even though it was the spring, ABT decided to do a performance of the nutcracker in the spring, and they needed extra snowflakes. So I was an extra snowflake, and that was my first experience with the company. And um at the end of that summer, we went on tour. I think that was it. We went on tour, and in the middle of, and when you go on tour with ABT at that time, you leave for three months, and it was Lucia Chase that had called me up and said, Dearie, we'd like to offer you a contract. And I said, Oh, yes, please. And then we went off on tour, and we're in DC for three weeks to a month, and toward the end, Flo, who was the assistant that did everything, said to me, Okay, well, we'll be sending you back to New York and you'll join us wherever we're gonna be doing nutcrackers. And I said, What do you mean? She goes, Oh, well, you're just an apprentice. I said, Oh, meanwhile, I had left the apartment I was living in. I had been in the movie Hair, so I had to take myself out of that. And I didn't have anywhere to go in New York, so I went back to Louisville, but then a few months later, met the company in Chicago, a few months later, met the company in California, and eventually went back to New York and the following fall joined the company full time. So that was a bit of runaround from the very, very beginning. You don't feel good about any of it.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah. And so was Bruznikov then the uh director by the time you joined the company? So that fall.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Um, I think we were on tour in Chicago, or maybe that was this summer before, I don't remember. And he told us that he was leaving to go to New York City Ballet because he wanted to dance the Valentine Ballets. So he was not director, but he went to City Ballet, maybe for a season, and then he came back and he became the director of the company. So for my first year, it was Lucia Chase, and then he came back and took over the company.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah. What was it like to work underneath him?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Underneath him. Well, as a dancer, it was intimidating as anything. So was it to work with any of the people that were in management. Um for me, because I didn't really have enough self-esteem to realize that I had talent, that I was good, that I could have gotten a lot better. And we were not ever made to feel like we were that great. You know, there was there was a lot of reasons you thought you got a part or you didn't get apart. And it didn't make any sense. We all know now it's very subjective, but nobody did anything to enhance your self-esteem. It was just a given. You either got it or you didn't, or maybe you know, you needed to lose three pounds before they'd let you do this role. Or uh I had a really early-on experience with Anthony Tudor that blew me away from the very beginning that didn't start that those years off very well, even though he was an amazing, amazing choreographer and a gifted man. Um I was like, Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Uh no, I was just gonna say that even your start with ABT a little had to leave your self-esteem feeling not so great because and I think dancers, I mean, I think it's changing as we evolve, but it's like I think dancers didn't feel good about themselves, they never felt like they were enough. Um, and it's a theme that I think carries through when I talk to people who have dancers who have eating disorders because they never felt like they were enough. And so, you know, um, and it is subjective if depending on who's the head of the company, and a lot at that time it was all males, it was very subjective as to who got roles.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

And if a choreographer came in, they would sit at the front of a class, but you knew the management was right next to them saying, Well, pick this one, pick that one. And I think I just cared too much sometimes. I came out of myself to wonder what they were thinking about me. And that's one of the things I learned as a teacher because when you look out on your students, you see much more than they think they you don't see, they think you're looking at something and they're not. They're looking at something much broader, and we were so young that for us it's oh, I messed up that turn, oh, I forgot that step, oh, I didn't do this well enough. And that's not what a lot of them were looking for, but they were looking for something that the younger dancers, and especially those of us that hadn't had experience doing major roles before we left our little schools at age 15, had never had a chance to do. Whereas some people came into the company with far more experience and more principled roles, and they had been given coaching, you know. Um, I was young in in Louisville, and so I wasn't doing all the major roles, I was doing soloist roles, but I hadn't come into my own even as a young dancer yet, talented enough yet to get into ABT. But getting into ABT without some of that more experienced performing, you're you're doesn't matter how much talent you have, you're still green when you get into a company. Right. We were we were also taught and raised by people that were still children. We didn't realize that. You know, Gelsey pointed that out in her book. We were we gave our lives to people whose own lives hadn't been completed or figured out, or they weren't even happy with their careers. We didn't know that. I once went back and I was watching a company class, and I said to the ballet master who had been in, who was a ballet master when I was there and also was still with the company, I said, Look at how good they are. And he said, Well, Colin, you were always that good. And I looked at him and I wanted to hit him. Like, well, then how come you always made me feel like, you know, whatever in a rehearsal? He would, he would just, especially if you were a little outspoken. And it wasn't that I was out, well, I probably was outspoken, but I was outspoken because I said I would ask questions or I would say, well, wait a minute, what I didn't shy away from the truth of who I was. Later, I wish I had, but um, it was still who I was. And if you said anything to an insecure ballet master, then they they were not gonna respond to that. They didn't want you to challenge them, right? Right. Um, how long did you stay at ABT? I left ABT in 1983. So I was only in the company five years.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Okay, so what what what made you decide to leave?

SPEAKER_00 12:25

It it wasn't thought about much ahead of time at all. We were on tour at the end of a long tour, so three months, and I was someone that used to say, no matter what, if I'm on stage and I don't connect with the dancers or with the audience, then I'll know that I don't want to dance. But there were people in the company that just took their job like a job. They didn't, if they didn't get a part or this or that, or they didn't give it all on stage one night, it was not that big of a deal to them. For me, it was always a big deal, too much, probably, you know. Right. And so at the end of this very long tour, I had not had a good experience. And um, I realized I am not meant to be this unhappy. I'm not meant to. Everybody thought, oh, she's fun, she's funny. She didn't what nobody really knew was well, we all were hurting inside, and I didn't even know I was hurting that much. So we were on stage one night and we were doing La Bayadare, very challenging for the core. And I remember holding an arabesque, which you didn't want your leg to drop, or in Deblopay to the side, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, which was I was solid in those things. But one night I felt my leg in arabesque starting to lower and then come back up again. And I went, oh my lordy, what just happened? And it was as if there is a scrim in act two of La Bayodare in the beginning. It was as if that scrim created a disconnect with me from the audience. And I finished that performance feeling horrible, mind you. And I went up to one of the ballet mistresses and I said, I think I need to take a leave of absence. She said, Okay. So we go back to New York, and there's a three-month season at the Met, and I didn't dance. And I remember going to talk to someone, and she opened the door to her office, and she took one look at me and she said, Gosh, you're really hurting. And I just burst out crying, and I just felt all this pain of just pouring out of me. And she said, Well, what would it be like if you didn't dance? And I said, Well, I've never thought of that. It was all, you know, people used to say, Well, she's still dancing. My parents would say, Yes. I'd like to look at him like, Of course I'm still dancing. I never didn't, I never wanted to stop dancing. But once she said, What would it be like if you didn't dance? I realized that I didn't not want to not love myself as much as I did not love myself. I wasn't meant to feel like that. And I thought, oh, you mean I don't have to do this? But it wasn't even have to. It was like, you mean I maybe should think about something else for a while. And so at the end of the season, I went into Bersenkoff's office to decide if I was going to sign my contract. And I said, I'm not going to. And he said, okay. He said, Well, you know, if you do, you'd have to lose weight. I was like, uh-huh. Three or four pounds, which would have been hell. And then um, he said, Oh, but you'd make a great teacher. And I was like, uh, gee, thanks. He said, You've had such good training. And um, so I left the company and I had a boyfriend at the time who was not a dancer at all. In fact, he was a technician, and it was the first person that I felt loved me for me. Not because I was a dancer, but because, you know, in the family, it's our daughters, Kathy, Nancy, Diane, our daughter, the dancer, Colleen, Kim, Sarah and Johns was never just Colleen. And so I was like, he loved me for Colleen. Nothing about my independence or my time in New York or anything. And so I left and went to Utah with him.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Oh, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Um, and so what'd you do in Utah? Okay, the second I got to Utah, I'm like, I'm not gonna go to college, I'm not gonna dance, I'm not gonna teach. And I started teaching probably the first weekend I was there at the University of Utah open classes. I enrolled in college. Uh what else was I? I what else was I not gonna do? I just did everything I wasn't gonna do. I'd never at that time did very much performing, but at the end of the five years, I graduated college, had started dancing again, and then I was invited to go to Chicago to dance and act in a film. So I did that. Um, I tried to ski in Utah, I tried to get a waitressing job, I was fired. Uh, I taught, you know, that step stuff, step aerobics. Uh, but mostly then I got more and more into teaching ballet at the same time. I was going to school in the dance department. So I had a degree from physiology, psychology, and dance, because I met three people that all connected, they became my friends and they all were mentors to me as well. So I was teaching in the dance department, doing psychology and anatomy, physiology, and had three great mentors to help me along. Wow, that's pretty cool. It was really cool. And so, how did you end up in California? Okay, all right. So then I'll tell you the good part. Never didn't stay with the call him my um uh what do you, you know, somebody that's heart and soul spirit with you from the very beginning. Still happened for me. Yes, but I didn't stay with him and ended up with a violist. At the end of that summer, I was asked to go do the film, and I wasn't sure about the fact that he had just asked me to marry him, so I went off to do the film, and of course, fell in love with the writer the first day I got there practically, and um had a great summer, and then I moved to California with the writer. No, I did not marry him either. Most of the people I dated never got married.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

So then did you just continue teaching from that point?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

I I because I had started dancing again right before I left, I couldn't I continued a little bit of dancing. Um, but I was teaching in California, all over CalArts, Cal State Long Beach, Stanley Holden, and then Twila came into town and was doing something, and she asked me to audition, which I did, Twilight Tharp. And she said, Well, you have to come back to New York for a week, which I did. And at the end of that week, she had picked a certain group to go to on her tour with her, and um, it was once again, she took all these people that and just took us aside and said, Thank you very much. And then the others she whisked off, but she never spoke to us. And I remember going up to her and I said, Twila, you know, I'm not 15, you know, I think I was oh, I was all of 28, maybe. And I said, Why why wouldn't you just give us a little more information? Or, you know, this is exactly what kills me for this reason. I didn't want to come back and do this. She said, I'm so sorry, Colleen, blah, blah, blah. So that was that. I went back and I did dance a little bit with Cal Arts and a few other places. But you know what happened when I would start to dance again? I realized it took me away from where I felt the best about myself, and that was teaching. I love to dance, I would dance to this day. I do dance to this day. I've performed a little. I would love to perform again, but not with that same mindset that I had then.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

So, how do you think teaching has evolved over the years? You know, uh, you've been teaching for a long time. And, you know, how do you think it's changed? What, what, you know, what do you try to give to students? Um, and what do you hope that dancers take from your classes?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Well, a lot more than know how to do 32 puates. I say go to somebody else if you that's what you want to know how to do. And there are teachers that are gonna train those over and over and over and over. But from the very beginning, I went into a studio. My exercises were probably too long, too complicated, but boy, they were dancing, right? And in the center, you just got to dance, dance, dance, and musical musicality was huge to me. But also from the very beginning, I was aware of a certain kind of a placement that most dancers didn't understand and I didn't when I was dancing. That had I known the correct way to stand and to work from a position of correct alignment, it would have made all the difference. I had a natural facility. I was turned out, too turned out, I was flexible. And so I would just do, they would say, why you not do? Why you not do? Why you not stretch feet? It wasn't like you were trying, but there was something maybe off in the body that just wasn't working correctly. They can tell us to do all the corrections, but they were symptoms of a greater problem. So I learned what those symptoms were early on just. I watching. And so I could talk to kids about, oh, your feet are going out like this, and it's making your knees lock back. And that's why you're not holding your turnout. And so that was really important to me was to just to fix a few small things. And then their dancing could transform. But if they weren't being trained like that all the time, it was hard to then come back and say, no, I want you to stand like this. No, I want you to feel the muscles from underneath. We were not taught what the rotators were, how to stand correctly. You know, everything was just forced. So you could never really be the best you could be if you didn't understand it from the inside out. It's like if you're not on balance, then the next step you're going to do is not on balance.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

We didn't know how to stand in balance. We just stood there like we could hold it, but then to move it would all go somewhere. So the Pilates would strengthen us. Um, but we didn't understand. Okay, why does this work? Didn't understand why. And that was my mission. It was to understand ways to help people, but also to make them realize they have so much more potential than they think they have, because that's what I think to this day. That is that is what I love about it. Even when I teach adults that come back, they're brave enough to come back and take class. They say, I never knew it was like this. That's that's what I love about it is seeing that light bulb go off in somebody because it's more than the step, it's about themselves and their life and their self-worth and what they can imagine for themselves. And that's all is I want them to leave going, Wow, I learned something more about dancing in this class. So I think that's one of my gifts.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

That's amazing because I do think that how do I say this? Like dancers are always competing, they're always comparing, and you know, and that's it, it has to come from the inside out, but they have to understand how it works. And so, in what I try to say is that the mind also plays a huge piece in it because if that there's that negativity in the mind, it the body's not gonna work, the mind has to get into the way, yes, you learn to listen to the body, yep, and then your body, then your mind follows, but when you're young, you're thinking, oh, well, I have to show my leg, I have to do this, and nobody's telling you differently, yeah. You know, and it's so the same way when I teach well when I work with clients with eating disorders, it's like the mind and the body have to work together. I say the elevator has to stop at all the levels, it can't just be stuck on the penthouse, right? Because if it gets stuck up here, this is not operating. And whether it's you don't know how your body's moving or you don't know if your body's gonna digest the food, it doesn't really matter. It all has to work together, and and so it's such uh I'm so happy that you are still teaching, and now you have a new business. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Well, it's a new business of something I believe in, and I'm trying to take it further because I I love traveling, I love getting an opportunity to teach other places in other countries, and I really feel like I'm meant to pass on a lot of the stuff that I've been learning all these years through my training in anatomy and uh recently Zen Romet Floor Bar Technique, um, a way to bring that kind of connection from the body to the mind where you really listen, the body, first it's the intention and the breath, and then you listen from that, the body is going to tell the mind what's next. So you don't start with the head, but that's something you have to train. And on the floor, when you're on the floor in a Zena Romant Forebodcast class, and the floor is holding you and suspending you, then the simple exercises that you do are almost like in a meditative state, and so you focus in on that and you realize your body is moving, and it's not the mind telling the legs what to do, it's the body, and then your mind follows. So when you stand up, you've already embedded that sense of connection to the truth of who you are. And when I talk about the truth of who you are to dancers, I called it this one day and I didn't know why. But if your heels are plugged in correctly into the floor, then you're gonna light up the energy through the back of your legs, which is where the muscles are that turn out your legs. But if people aren't standing, so their entire foot is not placed correctly on the floor, they're not gonna get it lit up. They're not gonna turn on those lights, right? So to speak. So I would say you have to be standing in your truth. And so many times when people cram into positions, if you touch them, they're gonna fall over. So they're not standing in their truth, they're not really getting connected. And so then what happens? They get sick, like your car, you know. If you're not balanced, is your car's not balanced, it's gonna go to the auto shop. So to me, it's about finding that balance from the roots, and then you'll appreciate this. What happens to those roots? You know, they get so messed up from even by the time when we're born, you know. So it's about clearing away those roots as well to stand in your truth. What's in your way? And that is fascinating to me because I'm meant to be moving. Normally talking, that's not me, even though I too talk a lot. I'm meant to be moving, and when I'm teaching in a class, people say, Oh, you're so different. Now I understand you because it's coming from within it. I I understand it from the sense of moving, not from my head. So that's what I love is that stand in your truth, find the truth of your turnout. You can't force something, right? That's true. That's life, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Um so you're teaching now, and you're so my business online is bringing that, so bringing uh Xenobet floor bar technique. I want to spread it around so people can experience it. In addition, once that's really set set in people and they understand that, they can take that to whatever class they want to do. And I teach have taught yoga and breathing and meditation and all of that, um, improv, journaling, writing, and I I I'm old enough to know a lot of people that are on the same page. So I would eventually like to invite other people to be part of O'Callahan Moose community. And so if you're in England and you want to take a class, there's teachers there. If you're in Italy, there's teachers there. If if you want to get online in the middle of the night, you know, to take classes from people all over the world, whether it be Xena Remet or something else, that is along the same lines of what we all truly believe in and want to pass on. That's what I want to do. It's it's a little bit extreme right now. My coaches are saying, Collie, keep it simple. Start with one thing, and that's the hardest thing to do. But that's what I want to do. That's so exciting. So O'Callahan moves, O'Callahan moves and masterclasses so that I can go places and teach masterclasses in a m in your state or country or wherever will be will come live. I really love teaching live, but O'Callahan moves. Okay, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

I'm so like your evolution of your or or the trajectory and your journey is just so interesting, you know, from Louisville to New York to Utah to Well, Chicago, then Utah, then California.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And mostly I met somebody to take me somewhere else, but it was always a good thing. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

So, Colleen, thank you for making time to spend with me today to give the dancers out in the world the information that you have. And hopefully they will follow. Is there on uh should they follow you on Instagram?

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yes, yes, at Colleen OC, or I'm just getting all the social media stuff down. Info at ocmoves.org is uh that would be a website or email. Email. Um I'm on Facebook, Colleen O'Callahan. I have too many too many things out there, but if they are interested, all they have to do is Google Colleen Callahan, and hopefully I'll come up somewhere along the pages and um American Ballet Theater, and they can find me, they can call me.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

I love talking to people. Um so thank you. It was amazing. It's amazing to talking to you. And for the listeners of Tutu Thin, thank you for joining in again today. Hope you've enjoyed our conversation. And you know, as always, if you have a question, feel free to reach out to me through dontheodore.com or tutothin.com. And um I hope you have a wonderful day and we will talk soon. Have a wonderful day. Thank you, Dawn.