TuTu Thin: A Podcast for Dancers | Be a healthy dancer/athlete in mind, body and spirit.
TuTu Thin: A Podcast for Dancers | Be a healthy dancer/athlete in mind, body and spirit.
Dr. Martha Koo Interview
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We are pleased to welcome to the podcast, Dr. Martha B. Koo, M.D. She completed her undergraduate studies at Princeton University and her medical training at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. She obtained her psychiatry residency training at the UCLA Resnick Neuropsychiatric Institute and her subsequent psychoanalytic training at the New Center for Psychoanalysis. Dr. Koo is double Board Certified in Psychiatry and Addiction Medicine. She is also certified in psychedelic assisted therapy and an adherence rater for MAPS psychedelic research. For over 25 years, Dr. Koo has enjoyed her private practice, providing outpatient psychotherapy, psychoanalysis and pharmacological treatment for individuals, couples, and families. A pioneer in the development and application of Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), Dr. Koo is the founder of Neuro Wellness Spa, where she offers TMS, Magnetic E-Resonance therapy, iv ketamine, Spravato, iv nutrition, and photobiomodulation as novel interventions for treatment-resistant mental illness. Dr. Koo is also the Medical Director at Clear Recovery Center, a residential detox and intensive outpatient treatment center for individuals struggling with mental health, addiction, and dual diagnoses. She is on the Board of Directors of the Clinical TMS Society and the Beach Cities Health District and is an active lecturer at the New Center for Psychoanalysis.
https://neurowellnessspa.com/treatments/psychiatry/
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So I want to thank everybody for listening to the Two Tooth In podcast. My name is Dawn Smith Theodore, and um fortunate today to have Dr. Martha Koo, a psychiatrist, um on the show today. And I'm gonna let her tell you a little bit more about herself, and then we'll get started um on the podcast. So thank you again for listening and welcome Dr. Coo.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Don, so much. It's really a pleasure to be here and super happy and excited to have a conversation with you about mental health and particularly for uh athletes and and dancers. Um yeah, so we're to well, I I was particularly interested in speaking with you because dance was one of my first passions and I was a ballerina for for many years. And um, it's just really nice to be in a space where someone's really focused on mental health for sort of more unique populations, which I think do come out of a culture of training. Um, I'm originally from Virginia. I came out to California for medical school. Um, I did my medical training and my psychiatry residency at UCLA and the neuropsychiatric institute, and then I pursued a degree in psychoanalysis and uh then I do some private practice for many years, uh, psychoanalysis and therapy and medication management. And then I've in the past few years, I founded a company called Neurowellness SPA, where we focus on alternative treatment interventions for individuals um who don't respond to just meds and therapy. So we offer transcranial magnetic stimulation and IV ketamine therapy, spravado um and photobiomodulation. And I'm on the medical director there as well as at Clear Recovery Center, which is a intensive outpatient um and detox res for mental health and dual diagnosis.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Okay, tell us a little bit about, you know, I mean, you said a little bit about why you wanted to be on the podcast. Um, do you have, you know, at you know, you danced as a young uh person or tell us a little bit about the dancing part of you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. So um, like I said, I'm from Virginia, McLean. I danced with McLean Ballet Company uh for years, probably from the age of five to 18 when I went off to college. And then I I I really toyed with um, you know, taking some time off then and dancing. I think if it hadn't been for just uh fear of you know success, I might have done that. Instead, I went the safer academic route. Um, but I did spend uh the first two years of my college dancing significantly with Princeton Ballet, and until it became evidently clear, right, I I did really need to choose because I was really not integrating, you know, well in terms of the campus setting, and I was spending hours and hours dancing. Um and I and I think even that is an example, maybe, you know, when I say like my fear of success, right, and choosing the safer route is I think a theme that we see a lot, right, in dancers. Um but uh the so yeah, I think I have a an understanding of the culture um a bit. I wasn't a professional dancer ever, so I I would never say I have a complete understanding of how that level um right of intensity must be. But yeah, a sense of the perfectionism that often comes with dance, the idea of of you know, um fear of not being good enough, right? The idea of maybe uh mind over matter. And I think all of those things are so important when we look at a mental wellness world and not just in an arena of dance or high athleticism, but I think for all of us in humanity. Um, but it is very interesting, I think, to see those commonalities of the perfectionism and the, you know, we I don't I know you're big in the dance world and we're an instructor, but I always think back one of my one of our phrases we used to say is horses sweat, athletes perspire, and dancers glow. And even though it's it's cute in its own way, I think it encapsulates this concept of like very uh a strong athleticism and a very demanding, you know, profession on your body as a ballerina, and you're not supposed to show it at all, right? Um, you just glow effortlessly on on stage and it's it's and I and I think that encapsulates a lot of of the culture. And when it comes to mental health, the you know, the if we jump to dancers, but eating disorders in general, I think I love what I do because having these alternative therapies, particularly the TMS, the transcranial magnetic stimulation, and the iviketamine, I think they dovetail very well with that population. Um fears of you know weight gain in particular, these are these are options that that is not going to happen. They're not, you know, fears of putting things in your body, these, you know, really can surpass that. Um, and so I think I think it's really nice to have these therapies. And I I hope that people that are listening, right, that are athletes or dancers and you know, we're actors, performers, like are just aware that that seeking help for depression or anxiety doesn't necessarily mean you're weak, and it certainly doesn't mean mean you have to be on a medication.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's so important because there's this idea that that perfectionism, that we have to be perfect, we have to have it all figured out. And it's interesting you talked about like I, you know, uh you had to choose, but it's the path you chose was very similar in the fact that you can't really um there's not you're pushed to the brink, you know, like as an intern or resident, you know, long hours, much like athletes and dancers. Yeah, no, really, really good point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And not able to show it. Right. Right. No, absolutely a lot of common and and even day to day, even if not pushed to the brink, right? Like as therapists or as physicians, we can have things going on in our personal life, and you know, we have to show up at work and and uh function throughout the day. And and that reminds me, right? Oh gosh, there's there's so many great things to talk about, right, Don. But, you know, I often am reminding my patients that like some of our core strengths can also be our biggest challenges, right? And I think that's a good example of that, right? There's a lot to be said for people that strive right to do their best and can work hard and have to also show up and sometimes compartmentalize, right? Um, but then there's where's the line, right? And I think health to me, that is what health is. It's adaptability and flexibility, right? And and that hopefully we can learn there's not one, there's not a right or wrong. There's not one way to do something. But what we want hopefully to be as humans of our best selves is we want to be able to adapt and be flexible depending on the situation we're in. And we when we have that choice, right? Back to the choice word, to um, and we feel we have that choice, I think that's how we can be the healthiest. We get really stuck if there's one one rigid way of doing something, right?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think that's what you've kind of tried to do in your um neurowellness is the is looking at alternatives for things that traditional ways don't work. Correct. Correct. Very well said. Yeah. So how do you, you know, like what would you say to dancers and athletes who are struggling with whether it's depression, anxiety about performance, anxiety about for dancers, it's a lot about when's the next job. Or and so, you know, what would you want dancers to know, you know, from a psychiatric perspective?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's a great question, and obviously so many things, but if I were to pick maybe some of the top ones, I think the first we already commented on, right? I I just would hope that they could uh have some self-compassion and awareness that uh, you know, struggling with depression, anxiety, performance anxiety, um, just sort of fear of financial stability, that those are things that are normal, healthy, you know, um feelings that many people have at some points in their life, if not all aspects of their life. And so that seeking help is really a sign of strength. And um, hopefully, like there's a lot less stick, you know, stigma around that. So the first would be to allow yourself to be in tune, right, um, with your mind and body, uh, give yourself permission and then to seek the help that you need. Um, in terms of the treatments, uh, same thing, like that really just to gather information, right? Because I think we we all have, you know, we all have set fixed ideas about everything until we sort of start gathering information, which can open our awareness. And so I think that the idea of, well, what it means to get treatment for depression or anxiety, and we say a lot of people feel like, oh, well, I have to be on a medication. And I think there can be more awareness that therapy alone for a lot of people can be amazingly effective. And then there's these other strategies. We can talk about how they work if you want, but that are non-medication treatments, if that's really what an individual desires. Um and then try to stay in the moment, right? That's I think that's uh a big one in terms of anxieties. Um, you know, it's like, you know, we can we can sort of focus on our mistakes from the past and we can worry about the future, but it really doesn't get us very far. Uh so as much as we can try to be present in the moment, I think that that does help. Obviously, we need to plan for the future, but I think there's a balance there. Mindfulness. Mindfulness, yes.
SPEAKER_01Um what let's talk about some of your other modalities because my guess is is that most listeners don't know much about what you're talking about. And so I'd like to, you know, get the information out there for people who are in need.
SPEAKER_00Great, thank you. Yeah, it's really surprising. So uh TMS stands for transcranial magnetic stimulation, and it's it's really surprising to me how um many people still are unaware of it. This is an FDE-approved treatment um for depression, it's approved for other things now, but I'll talk about the the sort of the initiation of it. It was FD approved for depression in 2008, so you know, over a decade ago. And um, now it's FDE approved also um for cigarette cessation, uh, migraine with aura and OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder. And what it is, is it's it's a non-medication um intervention that's really more than twice as effective as medications, and it avoids the side effects of that we get with when we put a medication in our body, many of them, right? Sexual side effects, sometimes weight gain, sleep disturbances, cognitive impacts. Um it's it's a high-intensity magnet, right? That we actually calibrate to the individual's head and we focally stimulate the neurons that we know are not working well in depression. That's what we're treating. So we know enough now, interesting in neuroscience. So we know which neurons and we more appropriate now we say which neural circuit, right? So which circuit part of the brain um is not functioning well, and we can focally target that and stimulate those neurons to fire and repair them, essentially. So I tell people simply it's like physical therapy for your brain. Depending on what illness, what diagnosis we're treating, that's where we put the coil. And then there's different, you know, pulse frequencies of the magnetic energy depending on um the individual and what we're treating. So it does, it's it's covered on insurance. Um, vast majority of insurances cover and pay for for depression at this point, most all of them, several for OCD. People need to be aware that just because something's FDA approved doesn't necessarily mean the insurances have agreed to cover it. So there is a difference there. But for depression, pretty much it's on every insurance and covered. And it requires that somebody's failed a medication and failed therapy for them to usually get the insurance payment. But I do treat people that come that just don't ever want to be on a medication and just choose um to do the TMS regardless. And as a process, it requires somebody to come to the office five days a week uh for six weeks, and then over the subsequent three weeks or in in there um six, you know, one or two times a week. So there's a sort of a taper, and it's about 30 minutes. Uh drive yourself to and from, really no side effects, doesn't interrupt your day, can go to come from work, go back to work, school. Um, and uh so but it is a commitment, right? I mean, people really need to to be able to come for a total of it's of 36 or 38 sessions. Um so that's I hope if I don't know if it's questions or if you felt that was a no, that's that's great. What is the you know, what are the outcomes for DMS? Outcomes are great. So at neurowellness Ba, you know, we sort of look at response and remission rates when we deal with mental health and and there's set fixed definitions. So though we use objective rating scales, which are insurance-based, and that's sort of in general the way uh we would talk of one way we would talk about outcomes. And so um at our site, we have like a 76% response rate, which is is really high for, you know, these are depression people that haven't responded to meds, right, or therapy. So you have to sort of understand that. And we have about a 54% remission rate. Those definitions are based on those scores, and it's just like a score below a certain number would be remission, a reduction in the score, a certain amount would be a response. Clinically, you know, what you hear is just amazing. I mean, people talk about like just a feeling of well-being that I don't think they have achieved, you know, with meds and therapy, just their their, you'll see it on their face, their affect, you know, their expressions, there's the quality of their sleep, the energy, sort of the interest and motivation they have. And so I think clinically um we see people really pop. You know, it's hard as humans, things are so relative. And I think once somebody's been depressed for a year or two, and maybe they feel a little better on their medication, that I think they lose that that real memory somatically or mentally of like what it's really like to be not depressed, right? And so I think that to me is what's been the most fun to see with the TMS. It's it's it's a it's hard to put in words, but there's a real different level of wellness that we get than than I think is achieved when people are on specially three, four medications.
SPEAKER_01And what about like for dancers or athletes? Is that gonna impact their performance? Is it gonna impact, you know, their ability to say they come in the morning and do it and then they go to rehearsals? Is that gonna impact it?
SPEAKER_00Not only in a positive way, I would say. A positive impact. Yeah, no, it absolutely has no, like they can come in and do TMS and go right about business as usual, no physical impacts. Now, I should do one caveat. Sometimes day one, people can get a little headache. Um, typically if they premedicate with Tylenol or Motrin, they don't even have that. And so I would say that's the one like sort of thing that we do sometimes see it not every, not a common, but a well-known response. So a little headache. Um, so if but the population we're talking about, I guarantee you they go right about their business, um, like with the TMS, right?
SPEAKER_01And what are uh some ult other alternative um you know modalities that you use?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we so we also use um IV ketamine therapy. And um for people to know, so what ketamine, a lot of people know ketamine as uh the like horse tranquilizer, right? Um, so sometimes it gets a bad rap for that, but um ketamine is actually an um FD-approved anesthetic, right? It was FD approved in 1970 and it's a really, really safe drug. It's actually on the World Health Organization's list of essential medications due to its its effect efficacy and safety. It's used a lot in veterinary medicine, it's used primarily in children a lot, it's used in the military. Um and and what it it's so IV ketamine as a therapy process, it's not FDA approved for depression, but it's a standard of care. It's well known. So it was back in 2000 that the initial like research was done and and um on the use of ketamine mainly for depression. Now we use it for depression, anxiety, uh, PTSD. It's very it's very helpful. End of life distress is another good um arena for ketamine. And and what this process involves is this is uh an invasive process because it involves coming in, having an IV, so a needle inserted into your arm, and and using the medication. What the medication is, is um on a functional level, it's an NMDA receptor antagonist that probably doesn't have much meaning for people, but it's a it's a it's it's sort of like a psychedelic. It's a dissociative um anesthetic. And so people come in, um, it's a nice quiet room. They wear, they put an eye mask on if they feel comfortable. We have uh certain music and soundtracks that are dedicated to the Ivy ketamine experience. And then they have a 40-minute infusion, and the experience is a bit psychedelic, right? We have people go in with specific intentions. Um, and then it's really important to do integrative therapy after the process. Um, and we think it works uh really in a neuroplastic uh way so that increases, you know, we can see in a petri dish actually, like like neurons, which are your little like brain cells, right? Have little dendrites, which are little fingers that come out. And we really see growth of those with um ketamine and better communication between parts of the brain that we know are super important for mood, anxiety, and trauma. So the amygdala is a big seed of emotion in the brain and it's connected to the hippocampus, which is a big seed of memory. And we see neuroplastic changes occurring um in those communications. And we think this is the interesting the art and the science of psychiatry, right? Because we know how many, how many of these things work um scientifically, but doesn't really translate to how it really works, right, in the human body back to medications, right? We know what medications do, but why does it take three to four work weeks for somebody to have a response, right? It's clearly not just changing serotonin um transmission between two neurons, right? Something else happens in the between there. So same thing I would say with TMS and ketamine and all these processes. Um ketamine, the difference between ketamine and TMS, I mean, I love ibuketamine. We get really good outcomes with that too. Um, it's not covered on insurance. And so obviously that's I think a lot harder for access because it's a cash pay um procedure. And it you can't you you do need downtime after, right? The whole process takes longer. You know, you're not in and out in a half hour, it's about an hour and 15 minutes. You can't drive because it's an anesthetic, so you're not allowed to drive home. And and most people, you know, after an hour or so are pretty much good to go. I mean, I wouldn't do an hour, like I wouldn't do an hour and go go dance, right? Or do a dance recital. Like you really need some more downtime and and to and to give the the therapy, I think it's its most value. You you also want that downtime for as we were saying, like mindfulness and reflection. Um, so it's a little bit of a harder treatment to integrate just in terms of a of a life-to-life day routine, um, but another very effective strategy.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then do you um what made you go from psychoanalytic, which is a far reach, to you know, your spa, your neuro wellness spa.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I I laugh at myself with that. I think my colleagues too. I've always sort of been very full circle. So back, I mean, when I started, when I went to medical school, I really thought I was going to go into neurosurgery. I had had a lovely summer in in London where I worked with a neurosurgeon and I was just very excited about that specialty. And and it when I went through my rotations, it became clear to me, like sort of for lifestyle, I didn't really want a surgical specialty. Um, but I was very interested always in the brain and neuroscience. And so then I toyed with neurology and and I really didn't think psychiatry was was something I was interested in. I put it sort of last in my rotations, and I hit the psychiatry ward and I just fell in love and it became so clear. It's like, you know, a slap on the head, like, duh, like really, this should have been what it was. Um and and so I went through my psychiatry. Residency, but with my interest really a lot in neuroscience, I also was trained in electriconvulsive therapy. And so I had a really biological model. I was very interested in humans and why people respond so differently, right, to the diseases they have and how they cope. And because of that, and because uh UCLA was very biological, I chose to do the analytic training because I just felt like for me to be a good clinician, I really wanted um to be better trained and educated in psychodynamics and human development. And then and then I, you know, lifestyle-wise, it was very, very good for me to just open my private practice and and do that. And I was very interested in that and it and it dovetailed with my you know my family life. But I had always kept um a strong interest in this ECT and having been there at a time when they started to discuss the use of magnets to achieve the same thing. Um and when you see people really struggling with severe depression so that they can't function, and and you see something like electriconvulsive therapy, which is a hard treatment to do, right? Anesthesia and cognitive impairment, but but people get better, like, you know, it just it's so great to have that type of treatment without those side effects. So I had sort of followed that for those 15 years. And when TMS came out, I had now had 15 years of doing therapy and meds and seeing like, okay, a lot of people it's fine, some people it's it's partially helpful, and some people nothing. Like I wanted to be able to do better for my patients. And so it sort of brought that very, you know, scientific. Uh, so I went sort of full circle back again. And um, I think both aspects of care have been really invaluable for me to know education-wise, and to be able to impart on patients because it's not, you know, even when we do the TMS, we have a very heavy um therapeutic component to go with it. You know, we at neurowellness we we try to pair our TMS tech, who's the person doing the procedure in between the doctor, like with their patient, so that there's a real relationship, you know, we don't want somebody coming in and seeing somebody different every day. And we have a whole clinical initiative that has to do with nutrition and socialization and sleep hygiene and you know, spirituality that goes along with it. And I think that to truly be well, um, it's not just, you know, no pure biological intervention. I think it's going to uh provide complete wellness. I think that that there's other factors important there.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, it's interesting because I, you know, when I talk to dancers, it's like, especially ones who are struggling with an eating disorder, the eating disorder, it's the mind, it's the mind working over time. And I'm, you know, as a dancer, you have to everything has to connect. The mind and the body have to connect and the spirit, because the spirit's what's going to connect you to audience to the audience. And um, but with people with eating disorders or any anxiety, I don't think it really matters. They're disconnected from their body. And so I love to hear that because the other thing is is that uh, you know, when I ran an eating disorder clinic, the psychiatrist there, the first thing he would do is fix the sleep because he's like, you know, sleep is number one. And then we can work on the eating disorder. But if we don't do sleep, it's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. Same thing we tell our patients. I mean, you can be coming here and doing DMS every day, but I guarantee you, if you're like sleeping two hours a night or like some nights, you know, staying up all night and sleeping late, like you're not, I'm sorry, like this is it's gonna override, right? The benefits that you can even get from a very strong and effective biological intervention. So yeah, that base, those basic health care needs. Um, yeah. Yeah, the eating disorders is is, you know, people struggling with eating disorder, it's it's really uh hard with them, I think, with some of these treatment options. And it's and it's why the iv ketamine I think is is a real nice possibility because I think it teaches in the process so many things that are beneficial, like which you've already commented, like the idea of letting go, right? That's an important part of the iV ketamine. Um, and and it can be very scary, right, for somebody with an eating disorder who feels like they need to have such rigid control. Um, I think that's that's an aspect that is really, really nice. And then a little bit of the you commented on too, like the identity piece, like part of that process, the way patients will describe it a lot is there's a like there's you there's just a like a little room, there's a little space or distance between you as a person and your trauma or your illness or what you're and and having that experience in your mind to process without feeling it like so entwined or enmeshed, I think is really therapeutic. Um, because it's I think hard, you know, like dancers maybe with their their dance selves or performers, right? I would be the same, or athletes. I think when we do something as a profession that is so much ourselves, like our artistic talent or our bodies, it's very hard to separate out myself, my worth, my value from right, that performance or achievement aspect. And so I think it's another interesting process with ketamine where it just it just models right these things that that I think would are nice to teach people anyway, but a population that really struggles with that, separating themselves, their identity from their dancing or their dancing career, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, and somebody that's a dancer or an athlete that that has an eating disorder, they're trying to decipher two, because there's the identity of the eating disorder, and then there's uh the identity as a dancer or an athlete, and most of them started at a young, young age. So that's what they know. So that idea of who am I separate from these things is really hard to get a handle on. Absolutely, very challenging, very challenging. Anything that you want to say specifically to dancers and athletes, you know, I'm sure you've treated a lot. So I'm just curious like a message that you would want to send to them about mental health or about anything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I well, I I guess it's really not my message. I I think what I would uh just want to emphasize that I've been so pleased to see more of these professional athletes like in um in the public being able to openly discuss, right, what's gonna like we saw the Simone Biles thing, or I guess way back, like you and I know. I mean, and uh I remember reading, I mean, this was, you know, it's interesting. We do I do these podcasts and then I remember certain things, but Gelsey Kirkland had wrote an autobiography uh that came out when I was in college, I think I was a junior or like whatever, mid 80s, like and um very forthright in terms of uh her struggles with trauma and uh addiction, right? And eating disorder. And um, I just think I guess my message is the more people can come forward um and we can pop that bubble of uh this perception when we can look at this beautiful ballerina on stage that everything's perfect in her or his world, or we can see this athlete winning an Olympic gold, and and there's a tendency like that, you know, oh, that person's life is is like so great. I think, you know, not that I don't want it to be great, but I think a more balanced view of we all have struggles and and we can get help, I think is the message. And so I just hope that that I just keep saying, like, go out there and get help and don't be ashamed and help destigmatize it because um it really inhibits access when people have an idea that that they can't get help, right? Or they they or they're afraid to acknowledge, well, I've struggled with depression or I have an eating disorder. I mean, you're very open, um, you know, that you recovered. And and I think I think patients, like I would say, I think that's patients really appreciate that, is what I'll say. Patients feel more comfortable going to a provider when they know that that person can identify in in certain ways. And I think it's just brings us together as a community and supports connection that's that's invaluable for just the health of our all of us as as individuals within a community.
SPEAKER_01It's funny, I had a uh a new client last night and she had seen somebody else. And then I said to her, you know, look, you saw somebody else, and you know, I want to make sure that you feel comfortable. And what she said was, I think you get it. You, you know, you get it, and I feel cared for. And that's not to take away from anybody else, but I do think there's a difference when you've been there and you understand the struggles that they're having. And that's not to say that other because I have some great great colleagues that haven't had eating disorders that know what they're doing and are great, but I do think it helps. And, you know, I started off working in the eating disorder field with Carolyn Coston, who was very vocal about being recovered, but at a time when people weren't actually receptive to it. And so um, but she hired mostly people who were recovered because she wanted to give that to the people in residential when she started her residential. So I feel very um, I think I feel very strongly about it because I it's why I'm open, because it's like I also want to teach people to be trans as transparent as possible.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. And and it's interesting when you look at, you know, so for so many years, and I think it's better, but uh addiction and substance use disorders were separated from mental health, which is just crazy to me, right? Um, but but where they got it right, I think a lot in terms of those treatment is, you know, usually the people working right in recovery are people that are in recovery. And anybody who goes to seek help right for addiction will tell you off the bat, like, yeah, there's just something very val, not something, there's a lot very valuable when they can, you know, be working with someone who's been through the process themselves and and is in recovery. And it just it's it's so evident. Um and I and I think, yeah, the the more we can be transparent and and and sort of help people in ways that we've gone through, I think is is is really special.
SPEAKER_01Anything that you want to tell us about you that we a fun fact or something that you we wouldn't know about you. So speaking of yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um most you know, I took a year off uh between medical school and um, I mean between college and medical school. And I I worked for Club Med for a year. It's most people, and I was in the circus and I loved it. So one, I had a year where I like got to be barefoot and wear a bathing suit. It was like the year of my life. I my kids are just like mortified when I say this where I say it's probably the best year of my life. And they're like, mom, we weren't born yet. I'm like, okay, well, if I if I say pre-kid year, um, because I didn't have, you know, I had really obviously I was working, I had those challenges, but it was like I had really very little demands. I was in, I was in medical school, so that was I was just postpone that. Um, and then I I so I did the flying trapees, I did the the still duo trapees, I did the bicycle act and um other performancing too, but it was but most people don't know that yeah. So I took a year, I did not take time off before college, and I think it was my way, you know, to dance as I reference, and I think it was my way to sort of give me that um and give myself permission. And yeah, and it was fun. So I always tell people don't know that I was actually a trapeze artist.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. I love that. Yeah, thank you. Um so I just want to thank you for all of the knowledge you've shared with the listeners today and um and just the work that you do. Like it's it's very special. And um, I want to thank you for being a guest on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00So you're very welcome, Don, and and actually did a incredibly for the work you do. I'm very appreciative.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you. And I just want to thank the listeners of Tutu Thin for being a part of the podcast. And thank you to Dr. Martha Ku for being on the podcast. And as always, if you have any questions or comments, please reach out to me through my website at dawn theodore.com or tutothin.com. And um we will talk to you soon. Thank you again for listening. Have a great day.
