This month on Wit & Delight, we're covering ideas surrounding the topic of gratitude. There can be a lot of guilt that comes from not feeling grateful for all that you have. Yet as we begin to move into the holiday season, it's important to remember that the holidays are filled with really complicated emotions and there isn't one right way to navigate tricky situations.
In this episode, I am back with holistic psychologist Dr. Anna Roth to explore the best way to prep for the holidays regardless of your family dynamic. We talk about how to approach difficult situations with family members, how to handle manipulative topics in conversations, and how to plan for the outcome you want when going into social situations.
If you are interested in connecting with Dr. Anna Roth, please learn more about her Truth Tellers Program. Dr. Anna is offering an exclusive discount to W&D readers and podcast listeners for the Truth Tellers Program
I think the holidays are, they're tough for so many reasons. I think they're really triggering of a lot of different things. One is the contrast between what we wished we had and what we don't. They are kind of a reminder, unfinished business. They are a challenge for interpersonal relationships to set boundaries or to , they're kind of like rubbed the places that tend to get flared or that were buffered from the rest of the year. Yeah. It's just this, it's like an intersection of all of these tough things at once paired with the expectation that we're supposed to be joyful and loving it. Yeah . I think that's the rub. Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense. And kind of mirrors my experiences. I remember being like, why is everyone so fucking happy? You know? And I just like, and I was like, I want to be there. And also like then I felt shame about not being grateful for all that I have, you know? And even years that were very prosperous for us, I would still find ways to, you know, I think leave feeling a little empty.:
And for a lot of us too , it's like there's a let down that when you're not able to kind of like rise to that occasion, you know? Yup . As we go into Thanksgiving, as we go into kind of the holiday season, one of the things that we can do is we can enter into it with realistic expectations. We can be grateful for the aspects of our life that are going well. The relationships we have that we love, our health or whatever is working, we can be grateful and we can still feel our pain points about what the holidays or Thanksgiving or whatever that brings up. I think sometimes when you think about gratitude or when we hear about it, we think it's just supposed to be this blanket feeling, I should feel grateful and therefore I should feel nothing else. We can't do that. Most of us can't do that. And so then we feel like we're not grateful or we feel like we're not , we're bad. We feel like we're like, I have so much what's wrong with me and we're just so much more complex than that. We have so many different feelings at once.Speaker 1:
So that's one thing to think about as you're going into this holiday season. Like I get to have a lot of different feelings about this and you know, that said, there is a lot to be said for trying to steer our mind in the direction of what we're appreciative of. You know, it was just like, I remember being like, thank you for the uninvited pity party. I don't need it. And I would just get resentful when they were just really trying to acknowledge me in a way that they felt that I would feel seen. And it was like I wasn't willing to accept it and I was like, I don't need it. You know? And th ere I am like sitting in front of my mom's, you will log that I love every year and I'm not even remembering tasting it because I'm so, you know, wrapped up in that. And there was nothing but good intentions for everyone. I was at peace with my decisions. They were at peace in trying to be supportive. And yet in my mind it was like no one could ever sort of say the right thing because I wa nt i t t o be, maybe I wasn't okay with where I was at. Well, and that's the thing too , right ? In hindsight. Right. That's so clear. Right. But in the moment it's complicated. That's not where you were. Yeah. And I don't think I could have even deciphered that. It's like, why is there kind of a weight on my shoulders as I'm entering to something that you know, objective , like you love, like you love these people and even people that you know sometimes can be triggering. It's like you can objective be like, I'm not gonna let them get to meet . I'm not going to like, I'm not gonna engage in that conversation. And then all of a sudden you find yourself there and the shame spiral happens. Well, and I think sometimes we have this template for how we think we should handle things. Yes. Or how we think we should go into the holidays. And what we really need to do is we need to evaluate and do some early planning. Ah, like now, right? Where am I at now? Emotionally, spiritually, physically, and just how am I doing right now in life? What am I up for? And then make a plan. Yeah. Knowing what your historically, what your triggers are in holidays, knowing who feels emotionally safe to you, knowing what traditions you tend to really enjoy. Yeah. You start to make a plan now. I think people have a lot of anxiety or kind of some like icky feelings, you know, here in the Midwest about winter coming and also about the holidays. So we want to avoid it and then we ended up in the same exact situation the next year and feeling bad. So that's something I really recommend that people do if they tend to struggle in the holidays or Thanksgiving is like make a plan now. Yeah . Especially if like you're saying, if family is a tender spot, yeah. It's even more important to plan in advance. Yeah. And how would that planning look? What'd that planning look like? I know I'm going to have this conversation or I know that I'm going to see this cousin there and this is how I'm going to behave. You know, like it's more about being, is it more about being like how will you react or we're about like deciding with yourself how like what you will and won't engage with like kind of what are some examples? Yeah, so that's a good question. So it really depends on your unique family. I think that for some people it's like a spectrum of emotional safety and dysfunction . Yeah. On a severe end of the spectrum, it might not be safe for you to spend a holiday with your, you know, quote unquote family at all. Yeah. If that's true, then you know, you may decide to spend it with your chosen family and you might be asking people what their plans are. Be booking a trip. Yeah . I think in those cases too, it's important to decide and this goes for everyone decide. You get to decide what holidays mean to you. Yeah. There's this kind of Christmas or this Christmas card or hallmark or whatever idea of what holidays are. You get to make it your own and maybe it's a day off from work. It's a self care day if you don't really like get into what it stands for, you don't have to. Yeah. But then on the other side of the spectrum, maybe it is like you enjoy your family for the most part. There is just one relationship you struggle with or a couple of dynamics that you struggle with. Then you do kind of make a plan for how you're going to navigate that. It could be just avoiding that person. It could be not wanting it to be different. Oh yeah. That's a novel idea, right? Yeah. Like has it ever been, yeah. This kind of deeper interaction that you want, has it ever felt more fulfilling? Have they ever not made that comment about your weight? Right. Your whatever? No. Expect it . Yeah. Yeah, and I think that that gives space for people to like meet them where they are and accept them. You know, in my younger years, I used to think, man, if the world would just bend to my will, everything would be fine. And you realize that that's a really great way to be disappointed in life because there's no way to bend things. You know, you can sort of decide how you show up and own what you have versus needing people to be, how they are in order for me to feel better. Absolutely. And that's what I learned when I went through my therapy about breaking the cycle of co-dependence , who was really about understanding that the expectation that someone needs to behave in this way really wasn't fair to them because that's not how healthy relationships come to be. Absolutely. And I love that idea of like not changing that dynamic and just letting it be what it is. And it kind of zaps it of all that emotional power if you just are like, it's going to be like that and I got to decide how I'm gonna respond. And you also get to choose if you want to participate in it at all, at all. Yeah. And I think that sometimes we don't even feel like we have a choice. Like we just have to go. Yeah. And you don't. Yeah . And that's especially powerful with families cause you know, you can leave the family unit and become someone totally different than you were in your packing order in the family. You know? And it's like sometimes even when I get together with my family, I kind of fall into like, you know, the oldest child. I know my brother probably feels like he falls into, you know, the youngest one. He's kind of like always like the jokester and at my sister very much identifies with the middle child. But I think outside of our dynamic, we're all, we all aren't those people. But it's so interesting how fast you kind of like fall into that, you know, and you just, you realize that just because that's what it was. Does it mean that's what it is now and it's, and it's just be like memory or proximity or maybe your parents, I don't know. It's just, it's funny how that happens. Yeah. You kind of just fall back into that old role. Yeah. Yeah. I even find myself like, you know, speaking differently than I normally would or like being, you know, kind of like, I remember we were at like our, my family was playing a game of bowling and I was like super pissed that I wasn't doing well. And I'm like, who are you? Like you don't even care if we're doing a of bullying. But it was like, I come from like a family. Like I was always the competitive one and it was sort of this expectation that I was going to perform and I wasn't. And I was like, are you going to have a good time? Are you going to like have a tantrum about this? And I was like, no, I'm gonna have a good time. And it was just so funny to see that little part of me resurfacing and like, not shaming myself about it, but being like, Oh yeah, remember when you used to be like that when it was like everything was serious and at and nothing to do with them. It just, I think had everything to do with like that memory of the context. And I think it's empowering to remember that sometimes these things will come up for you and it doesn't have anything to do with the family member triggering it on purpose. It's just kind of like part of your old pattern and it is what it is. Absolutely. I think that one of the things that make it stressful for us and for other people though is the expectations, the expectation of wanting it to be like it always used to be or wanting it to go perfect or wanting, not wanting anything to have changed. And I think one of the hardest things about holidays too can be the pressure and the unspoken pressure we feel from other people. Yeah. And how do we navigate that? One of the things that has been helpful for me to learn about is the difference between a request and a demand. Oh, interesting. So a demand is when someone asks you to do something and there's a consequence if you don't agree. Okay. And what , like what would that look like? It looks like being passive aggressive and bonds or there being some kind of like punishment, like uh , anger or frustration or talking with the other siblings about, well, you know, she's not coming because you know, that's kind of punishing behavior. Yeah . When you say no, right, yeah. A request is like, we'd really love for you to be there. Here's what time it is. And it honors a yes and a no , uh , yeah. And those sound and feel very different. Like you don't feel like you have much of an option when it's a demand or you feel like you have to weigh the negative consequences against your own freewill. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so even just knowing that you have a right to say yes or no to requests and if someone is demanding something of you just to know that that's what's happening can be a little empowering people to say, you don't know . I'm sorry, we're only able to come from this time to this time or thank you so much for the invitation, but we have several other things going on that day. Yeah . But just to be able to know that you have the right to protect your energy and your own traditions. Like I think that so much of the time, like we just don't feel entitled to our own time and our own preferences. And I think that gets heightened around the holidays . And do you think that that in turn then creates sort of that perpetual negative feelings around the holidays? Yak cause he's at mint . Yup . [inaudible] not being fully seen, not being fully respected. And in a lot of ways I don't think that people underst like even realize you feel that way if you haven't, if you haven't been able to, if you have never advocated for what you need. You know that's something that I kind of realized, well if I don't ever tell anyone how like what I need, maybe when I'm introverted or you know, like at our house, my parents house, we're going to have to start staying at a hotel because my husband has allergies that have gotten so bad with our cats, you know? And it was like we've been worried about like that will hurt their feelings. And then when, once we set it , my parents were like, Oh my gosh, we feel so bad that he can't breathe here. You know? And it ends up just being like a whole bunch of stuff about really nothing. But there's this like, Oh I want to protect you against your feeling. And that's codependency to like not letting someone else respond to your needs. It's like you're not giving them the opportunity to show up for you. Absolutely. And I think sometimes we need practice learning how to ask for what we need or say what we want and assertiveness can, we can swing on this pendulum from being really passive to being kind of like almost like aggressive or entitled around it. And there is this nice middle ground where we say we respect the feelings and the thoughtfulness and the intentions of the other person. But we also really say kind of what we're needing and our intention and our reasoning . And I found that when I was kind of finding that middle ground, I would feel aggressive in my ass. Like, and I'd be like, you are on . Like, I would kind of assume they wouldn't understand and I felt like I had to be really assertive and it felt like I was like my fists were clenching, my jaw was clenching. But when I learned how to state my boundaries and say this would work for us, it felt like there was like room for our relationship to foster. Like the space between us was like was neutral. Like I felt very calm asking. I felt like I was being very fair. I felt like there was room, I was respecting them and I didn't expect anything for them. But I felt really at peace with what I was asking for. I was okay with either outcome, however they would say. And so they felt very different. And that practice is like, I think it does take practice cause I found myself once I kind of understood the codependent nature of how little things were popping up, it was just, you know, everyone wanted everyone to be happy and was, I was worried about everyone else's feelings and that's comes out of love, you know? And we just had to look at different ways to show up for one another, which is the same feeling of, but I was like, I'm different, I'm that , you know, I just, I was like, I need to be heard. I'm like, Oh, I felt very righteous and like you're not in a good way very much. Like I needed their validation in my speaking up. Like it didn't feel good even when I was asking for what I needed. Yup . So that might be something that your , if this is a new to you, you might be kind of feeling like, well now I know I can have a choice. I'm going to shout it from the rooftops. They can also then it feels good. Yeah. It's kind of an interesting metaphor I use with people sometimes is this idea of a sea and an enemy can never say that word where, cause we're kind of talking about opening a little bit and saying what we're needing and what , what would work better for us? And in thinking about whether or not it's safe to open, is it polluted waters or is it clean homeowners ? Yeah. So there isn't this kind of universal safety that people have with families . Yes, yes. Some people listening might go that would never work right by family . I think a lot of people feel that way. And so, you know, the thing that I want to say and we want to say too is like you have to really evaluate your situation and say what's safe here and what's not? Is it kind of Clearwater's to test this out and kind of open up and say what my boundary is or is it not? And yeah , there's a wide range of how you can navigate that. And if you're someone who really, you know, has a really kind of toxic family or kind of polluted waters, you might really want to give yourself more support this time of year. This might be a time to have a tuneup with your therapist or having a couple sessions to navigate this time. But really, really, like I said, going back to making that plan. Yeah. Yeah. And really kind of like understanding how the reactions might happen and also knowing that you don't owe anyone an explanation for any choice that you make. I mean, especially if you're showing up for yourself and if someone's not going to understand and it might create more conflict of, you know, you don't have to explain yourself in a way that is like about helping someone else feel more comfortable. You know? I think that that's something I still do. It's just like, this is my choice. I want you to feel okay. You know? It's really hard to unlearn that, especially when you're in . That's , it really is. That's something that I've tried to get better at too. I'm feeling really uncomfortable when I know people are unhappy with my boundary, but the more I feel entitled to taking care of myself, the more I can let that go. Yeah. Yeah. And to you realize the more often you do it from a place of self love and respect for that relationship. You know, even without having to explain everything, I think sometimes you don't give that person on the receiving end enough credit for, I don't have understanding where you're at or like how much you might not be non-verbally communicating or that just being clear is probably really helpful for them too. And that takes practice, you know, and kind of trusting that you're gonna be in safe waters . Sometimes you're not. So I'll talk about that. What happens when you open up and it's like this got way worse or like, or you make the wrong kind of approach. Like what do you do if you find in a situation over the holidays where you're like, this is unhealthy for me. I don't know what to do next. Is it you remove yourself? That's a tough one. It depends on if you're , is it a phone conversation, are you there? And it's feeling really kind of flooding or overwhelming. Yeah . This is maybe one example. So let's say that you've got a family that's hanging out all the time and you're with your in laws and there's someone in the family, maybe a cousin who's always just been kind of like never really gotten along and they like dominate the conversation and you're suddenly, you're fed up and you're like, I have to leave. And you don't necessarily believe that it's something that you should be able to say to anyone else. You don't want to make a scene, but you also know that like I need to like to leave. How would you handle that? Cause I , I know some people wait to the point where they haven't said anything and they're like, I feel so disrespected. I have to just like, I don't want my family to be here. I'm ready to be done, you know, which isn't necessarily like the best thing to do either. So I think again, that this is where planning comes in. Yeah. You would plan that. Maybe you would get to that point. Right. And so I would be saying something like in the text conversations, like, you know, I am able to stay until about three 30 yeah, right. Like you gave yourself an out. Yeah. You're enjoying yourself. You want to stay longer, you can, yeah, that's a great idea. Like the person that's hosting, you're saying like, okay, two o'clock sounds great, just so you know, I'm going to have to head back to the cities or three. You know, one thing that I've also done to , with planning, knowing when my social anxiety gets triggered, where I feel like I'm really uncomfortable, I'm not feeling safe or like I'm just generally not feeling like I can be myself is I will give myself a job, you know, or like I find that maybe this happens to me a lot. I get overwhelmed with too much extroversion. I will be like, I will handle the stuffing. So part . Yeah. And that just comes from me knowing I need a break, you know? I know that my dad is very much the same way as I am. He plans in the mornings to leave and right . And he has like, or he's the errands guy, like you're ins his last semesters , but he will run to the store. He's like, I need a job. That's his way of finding breathing space and yeah, and it works for him and it has nothing to do with the nine AMIC being bad, but when you feel depleted and a little cranky and you're like, I want to enjoy this, you know, there are ways to be part of the fun while protecting your energy and that's been really helpful for me, especially when you have some anxiety around just social occasions. I do that now at parties when I'm like, okay, I'll know one person who was there or these are topics that I feel really comfortable talking about. I know I don't want to talk about work. Sometimes I decide when I have new friends, I don't want to talk about work and it's just like I have my things that I say and if someone wants to probe that means they're interested in it. And then I have as far as I'll go. But because I've planned that out in my own mind, I'm not like, Oh, they're asking what do I do? You know? It's like the worst plan . Yeah. Yeah. And that does. I kind of imagine sometimes if it's a conversation that I don't want to have, I'll imagine having it with that person and like what I'll say. So then I don't, you know, feel triggered by it. I think that's a great strategy. Having a break. Another thing I think if I had to say a number one thing, if you're in that situation you want to leave is being unapologetic. And I don't mean being rude, right? But I think that this is one of the main pieces of feedback I give people around. Being assertive in your communication. It's much more effective when you make eye contact, when you're confident, when you communicate like, I'm doing this versus like, I'm so sorry. I hate to be rude, but I got, I , I just, I , Oh, I didn't mean to, I mean that it's instantly undermining your reasons . Yes. And I have so many friends. I do that and it is a very Midwestern thing to do as well. Like everything starts with an apology and we don't even hear it. Yeah. And so then it becomes kind of part of our vernacular even to absolutely. Versus saying, thank you so much. This was so lovely. I have to go. Yeah. And people still get that sense of gratitude and thanks . And that confidence I think puts other people at ease as well . Well, and it kind of conveys like, Oh, they must have, they must really have a recess. Yeah. It seems like there's actual real reason there. That's such good advice. I think. Um, there's a lot of us who can, maybe next time we, we need to excuse ourselves from anything. Pay attention to the words that you're using. When I was sick on Monday at an event I was throwing, I said, I'm sorry, I really need to leave. And I didn't have a voice. And it was like, I'm apologizing for being sick and not being, you know, when I had already, you know, and someone said to me, you've already gone above and beyond. And I'm like, yeah, you know? And it was sort of this like feeling like I wasn't living up to the potential or that I, you know, and it was about like, I'm sorry for not being everything that I think I should be, you know, and then leaving. And that's really, I think where that came from. Yeah . And I think just knowing too that when people are like, Oh, are you sure? And are you available ? Yes. That's just part of the kind of like a social norm. Yes. We're asking you about your job or doing these things. Yes. Navigating their own social anxiety and stuff too. Yeah . And so even just to kind of have that compassion as well and not kind of think that it's so much about us really, you know, like just a , not even like let it go there inside of us. Totally. That's such good advice. It's specifically for me. And that is just, they're having their own plan and their own way of navigating things on their own triggers that you, you know, I remember when I was younger I was so overwhelmed with the idea that every person in the world were having as many thoughts as I was. In my head I was like, Oh , that's a lot. I mean, that's a true empath being like, man, I mean, and I'll even see people kind of walking with their heads down and I like feel their pain, you know? And I think that that's probably why there is such a high , like a vibration in when you walk into these holiday situations because you've got years and years of stuff that's kind of like there's this tension there and that's , that's something that's not, you can't just wish that away. And that's part of your history. And I love the idea of imagining other people kind of having a similar experience with you kind of sets the playing field, you know, in a really level way. It's interesting to the different brands of reactions you get when you set boundaries like that. I think sometimes you get the like really socially polite, like are you sure? No , don't go. But then sometimes you get kind of snarky ones. Yeah . And sometimes you get passive aggressive and kind of rude ones. And I think, you know, my sense for that and my experience for that is sometimes people resent people who set boundaries and take care of themselves because they don't do it for themselves. Yes. I've had this happen quite often. They would never leave. Right. They would never not stick it out to the end. Yeah . They would never say, I'm tired and go. And so they're like, you don't get to do that. Oh , who do you think you are that you get to do that? That is so insightful. And anytime I have some friends who do this and you know, I actually think that before I was setting boundaries for myself, I was a very like, this is how you do it, kind of a person. And that definitely did STEM from that ability to not do it for myself and kind of that envy that you don't even realize that you're having for man, I really want to be home on my pajamas, you know? And that's really what I need and I, but I can't do that because that's not what we do. And that comes from a place of pain recently and had hosted some friends over and had some like new people that had never known and someone made it a little bit of a snarky comment about not being over before. And it definitely, I let it pass, but I remember thinking about it later on and realizing that, Oh, that had everything to do with me feeling bad, that I hadn't been available when I felt like I should have, when really we've been really busy. It has not been the right time. You're modeled the house and that it probably had everything to do with her kind of like, who knows what it was. But I realized that it was certainly something that she probably was just saying like I would have , you know, it's so great that you have all this space, not how come you've not invited us over before. And I took it as a character hit when truly like I think I was looking for someone to kind of judge me for not being more open. Really though. Oh, you're going to challenge me on it. I don't know. I mean the tone. Yeah. Right. I mean cause I think the tone says everything. It could be that, yeah. Where you go to this place of like, I'm not enough. Right. Or it could be your intent or picking up on a guilt manipulation. Yeah. And this person has said some things before. I'm like, you know, just like, and definitely like I've tried to view it not as a, and it could be someone who's a bit manipulative, but just deciding to not engage. Right. You know the intersection. Right, right, right. The manipulation using guilt meets your own like sense of always wanting to be good enough and do everything right. For sure. That's where the vulnerability comes for sure. And that's going to happen a lot at parties. Like let's say you're hosting, you know, for the first time and like the Turkey doesn't come out as well as your mother-in-law. And she's like, well we should have had it in my house and there's more space. Like, you know, just something to do with my family, Deb, love ya . But you know, I think that navigating those tonal things where you're in tennis or like [inaudible] like I know that that was kind of a dig and it does rub right up against, I think you know that feeling. What's your advice for that? So my number one thing, this has been so empowering and helpful to me that I recommend to you and anyone listening, is to Google psychological manipulation. Look at Wikipedia and look at the list. Awesome, good hard work. There is a list of tactics that are used in so many people. I really believe that it's not conscious, right? They probably learned it from the parent. Yeah, my , the boss. You know, it's trying to bring about a desired outcome that doesn't respect the autonomy of the person you're , you're asking. And like now that I know what all of those manipulations are, anytime someone uses one on me, I instantly don't give them what they want. Yeah . And this person was zero guilt about it. Yeah. And this person who said this has said a couple other things where I'm like, and I had made a very clear boundary about not going to something because I was flying out at 5:00 AM and it was a very clear like, well you're still here. And it was like, Oh , like warning signs. Like that's a big deal for me to say in the beginning of new friendships with people to set a boundary because I normally will plow past him because I can grit my way through and it's like we're not doing that anymore. You know, I'm not going to drink if I don't feel like I should and I'm not going to not sleep if I don't think I should. It's very new, like little baby seeds and it was just a flat out. Like I'm judging you for that. It felt like that. And I remember being like, that's wrong. Like that's just not something that I would want to be involved with with that. And I think, you know, it's an even better reason to not show up. And I found myself trying to talk myself into going. Like I remember getting home and being like I did, I did completely get hooked by it, but at least I had that sense of like, Oh, this feels weird. And it's like, I don't have any friends who talk to me like that, like at all, you know? And it's not like, don't talk to me like that, but very much like we don't use, like we have a very respectful, you know, approach to appreciating the time we put it into our relationships. That's a sign of psychological health and a sign of good boundaries is people who respect your no. Yeah, yeah. And your limits and you don't have to go too far with where you take it with that other person. You just go, okay. And maybe, yeah , you take a step back. Right. But you definitely don't take the bait and try to give them to them a piece then because that does feel like I feel that sense of like, Oh well yeah , you know, it really does hook you who I'm going to Google that. We're going to talk about that a little bit more and I think that that's a great place for like for homework for all of us as we plan for the holidays. You know, and also understand there's just going to be times when people do stuff like that and you know, trust your gut, don't engage and really feel proud of your ability to advocate for yourself, to plan for yourself. That's a big reason to feel thankful, like that ability to do that is such a gift. And I think the next episode that we're going to talk about for December, we'll talk a little bit more about loving, you know, how far we've come this year and really being grateful for what we have. But you know, as we're in the beginning of November, take the time to plan out how you want the rest of your year to go, especially in these points of um , a potential conflict. You know, I know that I've got a whole list of things that I'm going to be thinking about as family comes into town and as I, you know, deal with these new friendships around holiday parties. You know, we're in just a different phase of life for, we have new people coming in and how do I want those relationships to go? Absolutely. And if I said, you know, it's going to say one final thing, it's just both an gratitude in one hand holding all of the wonderful things you're appreciating and making room for whatever this Springs up for you. If there's hard spots too , it's not one or the other. Yeah, both. And that's a great way to wrap things up. All right, well thank you guys so much for listening. If you have any thoughts, extra tips on how you are handling the holidays yourself. I know readers and listeners would love to hear that, and I know that both Anna and I would love to hear how you have found navigating the holidays to be a place where you're able to make room for yourself. Make room for your both and as you round out the end of the year. All right. Please remember to share this episode with anyone you think would be helpful. Rate review, subscribe, follow. I'm Anna at Dr. Anna Roth on Instagram and you know where to find me. Hello at Witt and delight that come . All right. We'll talk to you later.Speaker 2: