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I am so excited to be sharing my conversation with Jen Olmstead, Lead Designer and Creative Director at Tonic Site Shop. Jen is someone who I have come to know and love and who has become a mentor to me. Jen is one half of Tonic and she built the custom Wit & Delight website, which is a completely new experience that was launched in April.
In this conversation, Jen and I talk all about how to build a brand online. I’ve long admired the way Jen puts tangible action behind a lot of the issues that entrepreneurs and business owners have. She really helps people understand the importance of trying out ideas rather than worrying about the precise strategy or having a *perfectly* crafted idea.
I hope you enjoy our conversation and get a bit of an understanding of both how we work together and how you can work with Jen and Tonic to get your website up and running in a fraction of the time it would take to build something custom.
hello. Hello. I am so excited to be chatting with Jen Olmstead today. She is someone that I have come to know and love and is kind of this mentor to witness delight and myself. Jen Olmsted is one half of tonic site shop and she built the custom with delight website which is a completely new experience that I'm sure a lot of you guys have noticed. We launched in April. We had been meaning to sit down and talk for quite some time about building brands online. When I found tonic, I knew I wanted to work with them mostly because they had this great way of showing up online through kind of the subtle ways that you get to know a brand that is kind of like meeting a person. And it's really hard to do when you don't have nonverbal communication, when you don't have a person sitting in front of you talking about the benefits of staying on a website or reading. And uh, I just love the way that Jen really puts action behind a lot of the issues that entrepreneurs and business owners and even people who are looking to start a new business into doing things and not so much thinking about the strategy or being perfect or having this perfectly crafted idea. She really helps you understand the importance of getting out there and trying out your ideas. And in a lot of ways we can do that now with a pretty simple template that looks super professional. So I hope you enjoy our conversation and get a little bit of an understanding of how we work together and also how you can work with Jen and tonic and their templates to get your website up and running in a fraction of the time it would take to build something custom. All right, here is my conversation with Jen Olmstead . Hi Jan , how are you? I'm doing well. Nice to talk to you. Nice to talk to you too. This has been a long time coming and you know you and I spent many, many hours talking into the [inaudible] hours in the morning and we were creating the new and delight website and I'm so excited for , for our listeners to get to know you a little bit more. Can you tell us a little bit about tonic and who you are and how we came to know one another? Yes, I would love to and I think it's great that we're sitting down together. I think the last time that weSpeaker 3:
talked about recording, I was like 39 and a half weeks pregnant and I was like, we'll see like maybe we can record or maybe I'll be having a baby who knows? Well , Oh , so this is a better situation. I'm not about to go into labor, but yeah , so I am Jen Olmstead and I am the lead designer at tonic site shop, which is the business that I co own with my creative partner, Jeff Shipley, and we sell customizable websites for the modern, stylish, creative. That's kind of our, our official tagline, but the unofficial one is that we basically sell templates for people who don't think they liked templates and that and that's the, that's the real unofficial set piece for tonic. But we basically saw this gap in the industry as custom designers for people who knew they had a business that they wanted to launch. They knew that they loved great design but they didn't want to spend the time or couldn't maybe invest as much as it would cost to hire a custom designer and instead they needed like a great template, a great website template that didn't feel like a template that felt like it had been imparted. All the strategy and design and like little details that people come to expect from a fully custom built website. And so five years ago, wait, maybe six years ago, think six we launched our first collection of of website templates and they're all inspired by cocktails because that's something that Jeff and I have in common. We love hospitality, we love like the intimacy of sharing a good drink on a rooftop or across the table. So we have like, you know, the ma , my teeny template and the Moscow mule template and in each of them kind of has their own personality as you might imagine, like what you know arose a template might look like. So that's kind of been our creative enterprise in business and it's been really neat to see that grow and flourish over the last six years. And then obviously you found us through one of our creative partners that we did a website for use one of our our template designs. And then I got an email from you and it was, I had this moment of like full circle business cause I've been reading your blog for ages and ages and ages. And so I had that like little fan girl moment of like, Oh this is why I do what I do. Cause I get to work in an industry where eventually I get to work with a business. I fully respect so much like what and delight. So it was a really cool little business moment of realizing I get to work with people that value design and value, voice and value writing and value community as much as I do.Speaker 1:
It was so fun to hear back from you too because I had, you know, had been looking at what was going to be next for Winton delight in . And I knew that we needed to, to really make some huge changes, you know, for our site and the way that everything was designed. And before I had, you know, designed everything myself. And so I, you know, it was something that I think I really have thought about for a while and kind of carefully wanted to make the right choice. And so you're back from you and be like senior that you got what we were doing. And I don't know, I think when you find a site, you know, multiple, all of your sites that you're like, someone really cared about every single detail in here and the brand too. I mean, I just felt instantly connected. So it was just very validating to know that we were like kind of vibing on the same stuff. And you know, our first call was, was so great. And, and that process, I think that you, you know , you've walked us through, you've become a very important part in helping us kind of craft this brand and to then, you know, it's , it's adolescent and adult stages of life and I'm just so thankful for that. So I think that what , what I, what I want to talk about to, to kick things off, as you mentioned, tonic really provides these fantastic templates for website . What website developers and people who need websites that really look completely custom. Can we, can you talk about maybe some of the misconceptions that you see from people who think they need a custom website versus something that you can provide in a template? Because I know that we used a lot of templates, hid references when we were kind of building the website together. And I think people think they need something, like they need a Cadillac when they really just need something to like drive off the lot and start interacting with people.Speaker 3:
Yeah. Well, I think as creatives and as entrepreneurs, sometimes we like to give ourselves these levels of our business that are almost like these obstacles or like roadblocks or or things to overcome or like moments where we go, okay , that's when I'll be real. That's whenever I'll be really doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And one of those things. I think for most people, it's like one of her , I do my first like real website and so I've heard from so many people that it's like, okay, well someday, you know, after I've worked for, you know, five or six years, then I can afford this $10,000 $20,000 website and that's when my brand will be legit. You know? That's one of our, that's one of our, I'll have reached that specific time. And I think that's the misconception that people have is like, Oh, if you're going to be legit, you have to have shelled out, you know, X andX amount of amount of money to get to that point instead of realizing, n o, no, no, no, no. All you need is a great tool to showcase your brand. At its best and if you can take a shortcut to get to that, you don't have to focus on the someday of like well eventually my customers will , will be able to see our brand at its best. You can say, okay, right now they have a great conception of who we are and now we're able to focus on just doing the great work that reinforces that. And it just eliminates that timing of like, Oh someday and I've had so many clients just like you who have built their own website or coded their own stuff or designed their own things for years and years and years and have done great work in the process. And I think that's such a cool thing cause I do think we kind of live in this like brand first culture right now that focuses on kind of like elevating the brand building experience versus just the work mindset of like doing great work, continuing to create and discovering what your brand is and how it should look and feel along the way. And I think a template allows you to do that. It allows you to say, okay, this is something that's a little bit more simple, that doesn't require as much upfront of investment that still tells our brand story well and then allows me to focus on the business of doing the work that I need to be doing. Yes.Speaker 1:
Couldn't agree with you more with, with everything that you're saying, especially on, well, you know there's a , there's a couple things. One, the brand side of things. I think because branding has become such an important part of like showing up on online that people forget that the life of a brand is a voice that continues to show up day after day. And I've even fallen into that trap where it's been, you know, let's, let's sort of like think about the perfect language around this thing or you know, getting the logo exactly right. And obviously visuals really mean a lot to us, but it can be kind of like a hiding place. It's sort of like, or a reason not to show up and get out there and just you start testing things. Yeah. So what I found that I really love about working with a template first, and I don't think I've told you this, but I've, I've been like even looking at some of the templates that you guys have on your site as ways to test out some new business ideas that I have. And the reason why is because it gives you such a good hierarchy for organizing your ideas the first time you need to put them in a place where people understand them and like with built in hierarchy it really understanding that's a really great place to have a good call to action here. You know, this is how a great navigation could work with X , Y , Z. It has helped so much make decisions that if you're starting from scratch you would be like swirling around, you know ? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's something that I, for me it's been like kind of the secret hack for like testing stuff out and kind of seeing it if it's gonna work or not. Okay. So let's talk about like what can people expect when they are at me? Like I say, so I know a lot of the readers here have like business ideas that they're looking to either get off the ground or pivot in a way or like looking at building their personal brand. How, how customizable does it look in a template world? I'll a tonic like, like in what ways do you guys sort of like make it even easier to sort of show up in a really authentic,Speaker 3:
Oh, and it's, and that's such a benefit when you think about how much you can do as a small business. That's the kind of mindset shift I like to think when I'm like, Oh man, I wish we had more resource in this and that. And I'm like, wait a second. You have the ability to literally take something, an idea that you have from concept all the way through to selling an event, right? Or, or, you know, having a new offering out . We could do it in an all nighter if we wanted to. I mean I went and and that's like, it's something that's as fast as the entrepreneur who wants to drive it. So you know, I think a lot of people think they need to like build their own Cadillac but you kind of already have one there if you like really know the tools and know how to use it in the right way. And that's where templates come in, you know, because it really does help keep you focused and keeps , it helps keep people like me who are like, we could do 1 million things and the and show it can do 1 million things too. It keeps you just sort of like, okay, let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's you know, use, this is a great segue into like why, why we hired you guys to do a custom site is there, it pays to have people who really understand how people navigate the web to help you set it up. Can you talk a little bit about like how do you balance between standing out online and just making a good, a good experience for people? Because so much of web development is like intuitively giving people the buttons that they know that they need in the right spot.Speaker 3:
Yeah, there's such a balance there and it's so funny cause I think there's like there's creativity but then there's also creativity and a framework that allows for a great user experience because there are things that you can do like Oh what if we just put this menu on the bottom left? Cause that would be so cool and interesting. But then if you, your , your user gets to your website and they don't immediately know what to do within the first like 0.8 seconds, you've lost them. Like they're immediately frustrated and who wants their first brand impact point to be like frustration. So I think that's one of the things that we've realized in the course of design. Like how do you create a great user experience but then think through, and that's something that we did extensively when we worked on your website is like okay, what do people want when they get to wit and delight? Like what are they looking for? And then how do we strategically set things up in a way that's beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, but then also makes sense for how people navigate the websites . SoSpeaker 1:
yeah, and our bounce rate is now down like 90% I mean it's apps like literally we'd show Jen the graph, it, it just like switched off and it's just, it really is such a Testament. And then that was the first thing that you did too, is I looked at the top nav and you really came at it from a place of, Hey look , what is the number one objective that you want? You know, especially when you have so much content and, and you guys, most of you listening are not gonna have that problem. But I have gotten some emails from, from my peers who are, who just were like, you solved that problem. And I was like , I sent them directly to you. I mean, I can't , you know, I that that was so much about, you know, what we tackled and you guys also have templates now that kind of replicate that too , right ? That kind of help people that have the block size and we can ,Speaker 3:
yeah. Yeah. So we, we now really think all of that through. So all of our template designs very much approached design from a standpoint of like we want people to get to our website and initially go, this is what I was looking for. You know, whoever you are, whatever you offer, we want your ideal client to arrive at your site and immediately say, yes, this is it. And I think to do that it has to both be stunning and immediately have impact and immediately have a narrative and a voice. So it does have that unique originality to it, but then also it needs to be super clear and have a consistent narrative and consistent ask of like this is what you want them to do, this is what you want them to see first and this is what you want them to do next. And I think when you get your website kind of firing on all of those three cylinders, there is that sense of originality and uniqueness that naturally arises because people feel like they have this Eureka moment when they land on your website and it's really cool because we hear that all the time. When people go to like our tonics site , shop.com home base , people are like, Oh my gosh, as soon as I landed on your website, I thought this is what I've been looking for. And not that our website is like this incredibly unique unicorn among the internet. It's not like it doesn't flash or blink or do anything crazy, but I think it's just clear and consistent and people respond well to that immediate connection of like, okay, I'm in the right place. So if you can give your, if you can give your user that experience of like I'm in the right place instantly, then I think you're doing a great job with your, with your design experience.Speaker 1:
So many people, I think we get this a lot less sort of say I want, I want my brand to look like you know, yours, I want it to be like a target. But for, you know, people who have, you know , mobility issues, you know, like they , they, and it's such a good model because I mean that's how movies get sold. It's like, you know, Armageddon but like, you know, but for like I , I'll use a different example here. It's like, you know, Romeo and Juliet but you know, you know, in the future or something like that, that's how things are going to get sold. However, I think what people sometimes get in the way of themselves is really letting the most unique parts of their brand shine. And in this sort of brand first world that we live in. I love, I'm going to totally use that now that I heard you say it. It , uh, thanks for beginning to look a lot like one another. So do you have any tips for being, you know, kind of finding your, finding that bravery to sort of like be unique and not be like everyone else out there and, or like how to kind of avoid that comparison trap or kind of, you know, using what you like versus what you know works. How do you kind of coach your clients through that?Speaker 3:
Yeah, so, you know, I think if you start out with kind of that imitation mindset, you're gonna end up with something along the lines of just replication or recreation. You know, you're , you're recreating an idea. You don't want to just make Romeo and Juliet again in the future. Like you want there to be a specific voice. And so, yeah, exactly. And so I think if you start out with the same, then you're gonna end up the same. But if you start out with figuring out what makes you different and what you like about what you're looking at, that gives you the tools you needed to differentiate yourself. And so I think the important part is what, there's this great book by Austin Kleon called. So like an artist. And he says, you don't want to look like your heroes. You're want to see like your heroes. And so that's so great. That's just, it's just my Bible terms of developing inspiration for our project. So for example, someone comes to Whitten delight and they love your website and they love your brand and they love what it stands for. What they shouldn't be doing is saying, what do I love about this? What is it about this design that speaks to me? Is it that it feels spacious? Is that, is that it feels layered? Is it the interactivity of it? Is that the honesty and the tone of voice? What is it about this brand that I identify with? Write that down and then figure out, okay, now what's the unique value proposition? What is like the thing that sets me apart here? What is my unique brand narrative that I'm trying to convey? And then if you have those two things in place, okay, this is what makes me different and this is what I like. You're able to transfer those ideas and that inspiration into, okay, how do I fit what I love and who I am into something that feels like a unique package that I can convey online. And I think that's where starting with kind of your homework, because we always like to say, you know, a designer can't give you a brand, I'm a designer, can only give your brand something to where you know, like a design isn't going to give someone the tools they need to develop a brand narrative. However, if you can do your brand homework first and figure out, okay, what is my brand, who am I hoping to reach? What are they looking for when they come to find me? And then what sets me apart from everyone else that they might be looking at. If you can answer those questions both just personally and then in your design, I think that's what allows you to create something that feels original and that stands out and it doesn't kind of fall into this like Pinterest homogeny that we're drilling these days. Yeah, that's such good advice. And you know, I think that that completely works. Even if you can't hire a designer yet to have occasionally , you know, when you, when you look online and look at the templates, I mean it's the templates are, they kind of show you what the future could be, but you still have to kind of, you still have to have a roadmap for really the kind of like the shoes you want to grow into and that , and I think that that's what's so great about these templates is that it really helps kind of put you in a direction that aligns with that unique proposition, with that unique way that you serve customers and just show up in the world. Oh definitely. We call it a rubric. I always say like it can be so intimidating. And I think this is where most creatives struggle because like you just said, we have the Gillian ideas. I love so many different styles of design. And so if you were tasked me with sitting down and creating a website for myself and I sat down with a blank page, I would be like, how do I decide? I love this. I love Sarah . I love sensor . I love this modern look. I love this more like old school. I love everything. I love great design just in general. So how do I choose? Well, if you just sit down and start with design first, you're going to be so confused and you're not going to have something that has a specific point of view. But if you can develop a rubric through which you pass all those decisions through, it's going to make your job so much easier. So if you start with saying, who is my client and what am I trying to tell them? Then you can go, okay, wait a second, does this fall in line with who my client is? Does this fall in line with what I'm trying to communicate? And that allows you to answer yes or no. And as you filter things through that rubric, all the sudden it begins to make sense and you go, wait a second. No, this doesn't work with this. This image doesn't convey that sense of calm and peace that I'm trying to convey. And so I can say, no, that doesn't work. And I think that that, you know, you get that because Witten delight is so carefully curated and I feel like it's so targeted to exactly the person that you're looking to communicate. And so I as someone who's totally falls in the target demographic, I land on your website and like this is for me like long form essays. Yes I will totally. I'm here for this long form essays about like people who kind of killed their plants because they're a little bit lazy. How did you know I smoothie ? Because you guys are me too. Yeah, exactly. But I think that that just self awareness and that knowledge of your audience is why you guys have been successful and that's what makes any brand successful is knowing. And so I have this great exercise we can link to it in the show notes. It's called the brand brand interview. And I have all of my clients do this, but it's basically coming from my days as a journalist. It has you interview someone who knows who has intimate knowledge of your brand somewhat . Maybe it's your partner, maybe it's your friend, maybe it's someone in the industry who you really trust and has an answer. A few questions like, who's my ideal client or my reader or customer, whatever it is, what makes it looks , what's specific to them? What are the things that are least effective about how my brand is being presented online? And a few other questions like that. I think there are four questions and then you answer those questions. You have someone else answered those questions. You can even have two or three other people answer those questions too. And when you get that smorgasbord of answers back, when you get all the answers back, all of a sudden you're going to start hearing some themes emerge from what you think and what other people think and you begin to understand the perception that makes up your brand. And so it was some custom clients I'm a couple of years ago. It was hilarious because they said something about their brand being joyful and I was like, Oh yeah, I love that. And then every single other person also described their brand as being joyful in some way. And so we knew like this moody photo of them staring at the camera could not be their homepage image because it needed to be then like laughing and being joyful because that's how people perceive their brand and that brand is so about perception. So we'll link to that exercise in the show notes. It's super helpful if you're trying to kind of understand the perception of your brand, but tools like that make a world of difference as you're trying to determine what narrative and what your, what your brand should look like online. Yeah, that is incredibly helpful. And I know we talked a lot about that, you know, in terms of just, you know, we were, when we were looking at the website, it was, it was about how do you not be a barrier to entry for allSpeaker 1:
of the, all the content that , that we had. And yeah , as someone who is a brand person, I think what I realized was how we act as a brand every single day and how we like serve the client is just an extension ofSpeaker 3:
the way we curate for them. It needed to like that type of, that type of thoughtfulness needed to come through and everything. And, and that's a high order to like to get to and that, you know, we just had office hours and we, you know, as you look at a rubric, like we were talking about that, you know, how can we better respond to comments, how can we better, you know, have people talking back and forth. Like, you know, just making sure that whole experience kind of comes to life. And you know, in a lot of ways I've talked to businesses who are either in, they've either they've never really really know who they are and they get caught up in like not looking like they behave or they haven't done the work yet to kind of prove that the concept of what they're, what they're looking to do works for the people they're trying and trying to target. And it's so much easier I think to create something that tests out that concept even before you name it or put a logo on it. And do you think, do you think website templates are kind of a good exercise for that too? I just can't even imagine me like suggesting that 10 years ago when I was building brands, but now I'm kind of like, I don't know, try yet. Oh yeah. No, I think the cool part about a template is it allows you to evolve as your brand does. And that's just one of the most common mistakes I think business owners make is that they decide they're going to start a business. They know that they need to build a brand. They develop this brand that's very specific, that's very tailored . They get a logo, they develop a tagline, they build this website and then in a year their brand has evolved and all of a sudden everything that they tailor made for who their brand was before they started it or before , you know, even while they were in the early stages or maybe they were doing it for a couple of years, who knows, all of a sudden the brand, it feels stale and it can't feel true to who they are as a business as they evolve. And I think it's so cool because like right now with your website, because you can go in and change things if you decide in a couple of months that you want to change a few things or you think that you're a manifesto on the about page isn't quite right anymore or you want to update your imagery, you have that fluidity that allows you to grow as your brand does. And I think just having a website that moves as as quickly as you do and that can change with you. Cause we all change as business owners. And I think that's one of the coolest things as a creative entrepreneur is that as you say, wait a second. I don't really what I like what I was doing a few months ago. I think I want to change a little bit and pivot. You know, that's a cool thing to be able to do as an entrepreneur and not be held back by your, your online presence that can't grow when you need to.Speaker 1:
Yeah. And you're really moving from show it and using the templates that you guys have created for us has really been like rocket fuel for what we're able to try out and test. I mean when we're sitting down and talking about this event that we're working on in November, it started out as kind of an idea that I said, okay, I don't want to overthink any of this. I want to like throw it like we only have this many resources because we're at this kind of funny stage where it's like, do we want to put all this time and strategy and effort into it or do we just want to see if people get it? Yeah, it felt so good that people got it. And so now we're looking at like testing out, testing out the site and , and keeping it really small. And by keeping it small and by keeping it simple, we just are able to like keep the momentum going, you know? And knowing that we kind of build into it. So it's been like this whole incredibly different way of doing business since we've moved off of a platform that we, you know, really essentially couldn't access at all. And you know, I adore our, our, the designer that helped me work on this as amazing and on her initial websites and he's the head of innovation at these, at these big agencies. And it was so cute that he was so proud of us for like, he's like, this is exactly what you needed. And like, I'm like, look at you guys go and you know, I'm so glad you found someone who loves pixels as much as I do cause [inaudible] . So I do think that like if you are feeling like your website is holding you back from just doing business, this is, I , you know, tonic can show it in particular is um , is a really good Avenue for you guys to look into. I mean it's not even just me. Like I've got people who are not designers in there like moving things around and now they're , they're always very careful cause I know we're super picky but they get it enough to be like, Oh what if we use this to like create the, you know, our, our Lincoln profile like layout. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, you guys get it. Just like get it andSpeaker 3:
designer anymore. Which is still, if you think about it, okay, you know, you don't have to hire a professional photographer anymore all the time. You know, like we now have so much more power or with Instagram stories, you don't have to have a videographer to capture content. There's so many areas where we've been given so much more creative power and creative control in our lives. So why shouldn't we have that when it comes to design and to our websites? And I think there's some, you know, they're great tools in the market that allow for that. But I've, I've been proud to be able to create a great starting point. And I think the most common thing that we hear is like, you know, when I looked at all these other big box templates, they all felt the same. You know, I knew I wasn't going to stand out. And it's so important. Important. I'd, Seth Godin has this great quote about how fitting in is failure in a crowded marketplace fitting in his failure. That doesn't work anymore because people are going from one thing to the next with very short attention spans. And if they don't land on you and say there's something different about this, that's not going to give your business the kind of visibility that it needs to survive and to thrive. So I think that's what we can do is we can provide this platform for you to be who you are at your best online and for your ideal customer to be able to find you. Because that's the heart of entrepreneurship is find your people and serve them wellSpeaker 1:
and you can have it up and running in less than no time. I know and who would have ever thought, which I think isSpeaker 3:
a great place for us to like to let all of our readers go and check out your work in particular. Because I think once you guys go over to the tonic website and check out the templates and just really see what they're all about. I mean if you're on Winton delight, you, you know, and notice the massive change that happened in April. Tell us where they can find you and learn more about how to, you know, test out one of your templates. Yeah , so if you go to tonic site, shop.com that's our online space online and you, there's this really fun quiz called what's your brand cocktail that we have on our site that's on our homepage that that's a great entry point. If you're looking for a place to start, because you can take our little quiz, it takes about 30 seconds and it shows your brand is a cocktail and we give specific recommendations. So for example, if your butt , your brand's , this super fun life of the party margarita. Then we make some specific recommendations for how best to tailor your brand to your audience. We give you a playlist, we give you a great margarita recipe and then we make some recommendations for the best templates that might fit your brand. So that's a really fun place to start. Otherwise just land on our, on our homepage, you can browse the site collection and then we're going to be launching a new collection in October, which may be when this episode airs, I'm not entirely sure, but if that's the case then you can go check out our new collection and see if there's anything that strikes your fancy. Amazing. And it sounds like a ton of fun and while you're at it might make you a little bit thirsty what you yup . And I think I can absolutely attest what you see is what you get with tonic. And I'm just so happy to have you guys as part of the Whitten delight extended family and you know, we'll continue to make great things together. So thank you so much for your time and for giving us all these, this great inspiration for building our brands. Oh , it's honor to work with kindred spirits and we loved every part of the process. So thanks so much for having me. All right , we'll talk to you soon, Jen. All right, sounds great. Okay. Bye bye.Speaker 1:
Isn't she amazing? I knew that you guys would like her. So we have a couple of resources for you in the show notes. One is a link to the tonic site shop and it has basically all of the sites that we were talking about. It gives you an opportunity to kind of look through what they're about and get a sense for how you can really create a great custom site for a fraction of the price. It's also important to note that the news sites that are out there and are available are definitely inspired by our own site. So if you like Winton delight, please know that a lot of the navigation, a lot of the design elements, you can pretty much find some of that in the templates that they have. So I really encourage you to hop on over there and take a look at their offerings. And I am always available if you have any questions about working with [inaudible] . Um , we are 100% show. It converts. We absolutely love if you couldn't already tell how flexible it is to have us basically make any kind of marketing materials that we need to do. And anytime that we want it. So feel free. Send me a note at [email protected] .com if you have any questions about working with tonic and show it, I'm happy to help. Be sure to also click on the Wit & Delight resources tab. Essentially here you can find all of our productivity tools, downloadable things, things that are really helpful with project management, keeping on track with building your business. All of this stuff that goes into how I run my day to day. Uh , we did talk a little bit about doing things versus thinking about doing things. So , uh , just might be something that you want to check out. Feel free to share this episode with anyone that you think would like it. And as always, if you liked what you heard, rate review and subscribe and I will see you next week.Speaker 2: