Child Welfare: Family Assessments in Child Reintegration Cases

Emmanuel Nabieu of Helping Children Worldwide interviews his colleague and co-host, Dr. Horvath, along with Dr. Andrea Siegel and Dan Hope, Executive Director of SFAC on their experience in trainings with social workers and case managers at the Child Reintegration Center, Bo, Sierra Leone.

In this week's episode we are talking specifically about assessment of children and family needs and continual services at the Child Reintegration Center. Sierra Leone, West Africa. Dr The Importance of Social Work Interventions in Family Needs Assessments in Child Reintegration Services and Responsibilities toward Orphanage "Care Leavers"

Transcript

Transcript Episode 1, Uploaded Date June 1 2022

00:00:03 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Hello, welcome to his Optimistic Voices podcast. 

00:00:09 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

We are your hosts. Emmanuel Muhammad Nabeiu and. 

00:00:13 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Laura Horvath. 

00:00:15 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

In this week's episode we are talking about assessment of children and family needs and continual services at the Child Reintegration Center. Sierra Leone, West Africa. 

00:00:26 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

We have two amazing guests with us here today we have done hope from the UK. 

00:00:32 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Dan is the CEO and social worker for strengthening families and children. 

00:00:38 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

We also have Dr. Andrea Siegel again. 

00:00:41 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Andrea is a consultant with helping children worldwide and she is a social worker. 

00:00:47 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Then we have Doctor Horvath as well who is serving capacity as a host as well as one of our guests here. 

00:00:54 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

So Laura is the director of programs and global engagement at helping children. 

00:00:59 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Worldwide, so I will start with you, Laura. You were part of this form. Is it a week  or 4 days training - four days training? So yeah, first 4-days training you first had this training. 

00:01:06 Dan Hope 

It was four days here. 

00:01:14 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Could you reflect on what you have learned? 

00:01:17 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Well, it's really hard to capture all of it. 

00:01:21 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I I am not a social worker by profession and so the training for me everything was new in the training. 

00:01:29 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I feel like I maybe got a semester or a year's worth of social work in four days. 

00:01:35 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I I think I learned a lot not just about specific strategies or skills, but how social work is a key part of any program that's about strengthening families and children and and meeting their needs in a in a real and impactful way. 

00:01:54 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Uhm, moving from an orphanage to a family based. 

00:01:58 Dr. Laura Horvath 

A program that's designed to help children in families and keep them in families and make those things permanent. 

00:02:05 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I think I have a new appreciation for how complex that work is. 

00:02:09 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Yeah, so Dan. 

00:02:10 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Since you are leading the training. 

00:02:12 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

What are some of the key areas you covered in this training? 

00:02:15 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Some of the key takeaways that you think the staff got. 

00:02:18 Dan Hope 

So I mean first of all, I want to say that it is an amazing staff team. 

00:02:22 Dan Hope 

Here you have a lot of real potential and doing some really good work. 

00:02:28 Dan Hope 

Uhm, I mean the areas that we mainly covered was about helping social workers and you may refer to them sometimes here as case managers to do kind of assessments or families. 

00:02:41 Dan Hope 

So what are the families needs? 

00:02:44 Dan Hope 

What are the things they're doing well? 

00:02:45 Dan Hope 

And then from that? 

00:02:48 Dan Hope 

What is it that that will help to move them forward and provide assistance so that you're enabling that family to be independent and not dependent on you? 

00:02:58 Dan Hope 

And that, I think has been a big issue for, you know, a lot of organisations where there there can often be a response that creates a dependency rather than what we're trying to do. 

00:03:09 Dan Hope 

And social workers always make families independent of our help. 

00:03:13 Dan Hope 

But we're there to provide assistance. 

00:03:15 Dan Hope 

And on the odd occasion, part of the assessment. 

00:03:18 Dan Hope 

Is also identifying risks. 

00:03:21 Dan Hope 

You know what? 

00:03:21 Dan Hope 

What risks might exist to a child safety and if they exist, what do we do about that, both in terms of a supportive role but also a protection? 

00:03:31 Dan Hope 

Well, and and that that's a lot of what we've focused in on the on the three days. 

00:03:36 Dan Hope 

And we've also done a bit about continuous services, so people might be familiar with the phrase continuum of care. 

00:03:44 Dan Hope 

Well, we don't use that phrase. 

00:03:46 Dan Hope 

Instead, we talk about a continuum of services, and that is about. 

00:03:48 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK. 

00:03:51 Dan Hope 

Everything you do as an organization out in the community. 

00:03:56 Dan Hope 

And including what you might provide as alternative care services. 

00:04:00 Dan Hope 

OK, so we call the alternative care services the red area we call orange is like the protective trying to make sure children are safe area. 

00:04:09 

Huh, huh? 

00:04:09 Dan Hope 

The yellow is the supporting families in the communities, and that's that area and green is where we want. 

00:04:13 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK. 

00:04:15 Dan Hope 

Everyone to be because that's when families are working independently and you still might provide some services to communities generally, but everyone can access there and that's just there because you know, found. 

00:04:25 Dan Hope 

One is we all need a bit of help as a family when we're looking after children. 

00:04:29 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Wow, thank you, thank you and Andrew. 

00:04:31 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

You are part of this training as well. 

00:04:33 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

So as a social worker, what are some of your key takeaways and why is this important in the Today when we think about transitioning from orphanage care to family based care? 

00:04:46 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Well, I think that one thing that I saw happening over the course of the training is that I could really see almost in people faces and body language. 

00:04:57 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Uh, a brightening and UM and a deepening of an understanding of the the complexities and the opportunities of the work. 

00:05:06 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And so whereas you know, I think when when I've heard about how the child reintegration Center, which used to be the child Rescue Center, how? 

00:05:16 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

They went through a transition process and. 

00:05:20 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Uhm, and how? 

00:05:21 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

About how their sense was OK? 

00:05:24 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Well, once you get kind of families home. 

00:05:27 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Uhm, you you do these kind of maybe checkins on the families to make sure that things are safe and that things are kind of working, but I think that we're now going into like a next level of depth and complexity where where Dan was really emphasizing the importance of critical thinking skills for social workers. 

00:05:47 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And elevating the importance of the profession and the vocation of social. 

00:05:52 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

To work that when you're doing your assessment processes, you really have to. 

00:05:58 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

As Dan was saying, like understand the needs of the family and the child and the extent to which the caregivers can meet those needs, but also kind of the community based factors and the resources available to the families. 

00:06:13 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

In their communities, maximizing the role of community available resources and also community leaders and path. 

00:06:21 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Masters the role of kind of social networks. 

00:06:24 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

You know. 

00:06:25 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

People, friends and family members to be able also to support the family. 

00:06:30 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And so when a social worker is going to assess the needs of a child and the ability of the family to meet those needs, there's all kinds of questions that the social worker can be asking. 

00:06:41 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Almost like a detective, and to identify, you know, how can we as an organization best support the family. 

00:06:48 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And when I saw the faces of the staff as they were realized. 

00:06:52 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Seeing how they could really be like called to use their minds and their hearts and their spirits to do this work. 

00:07:00 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

I I got really excited about the future for the child Reintegration Center and for the future of the staff and their own growth and development. 

00:07:09 Dan Hope 

I think the detective lines quite a good one. 

00:07:11 Dan Hope 

I think it's about being a socially curious detective. 

00:07:16 Dan Hope 

You know that your look. 

00:07:17 Dan Hope 

Being, uh, you want to know the wise and the Watson the house up. 

00:07:22 Dan Hope 

So a lot of social work is always about asking questions that start with you know what? 

00:07:26 Dan Hope 

Why, where, when, how you know if and and exploring 'cause you want to you want to find out lots of information you want to find out, detail it. 

00:07:37 Dan Hope 

It's almost there being. 

00:07:37 Dan Hope 

A little bit like you have been a little bit nosey. 

00:07:40 Dan Hope 

Uhm, you know you you want to find things out, but you're doing that for a reason. 

00:07:44 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and the importance. 

00:07:46 Dan Hope 

Is that there is a reason? 

00:07:47 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and and it's not just a ticker box. 

00:07:51 Dan Hope 

Yeah, yeah, so one of the problems can sometimes be we go to families. 

00:07:54 Dan Hope 

We have a list of questions or we just ask those questions. 

00:07:56 Dan Hope 

That we ticker box yes or no? 

00:07:58 Dan Hope 

Yeah but. 

00:07:58 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Same list of questions for every. 

00:07:59 Dan Hope 

Family yeah yeah. 

00:08:00 Dan Hope 

What we want to be doing is doing much things that are much more unique. 

00:08:05 Dan Hope 

Than the respond to what that what that family situation is. 

00:08:10 Dan Hope 

And it's we. 

00:08:11 Dan Hope 

We use a phrase of you're going to know your child. 

00:08:14 Dan Hope 

You've got to know your family. 

00:08:15 Dan Hope 

But you've also got to know your community. 

00:08:18 Dan Hope 

And you're going to know your context, and by context we talk about both your legal context, but also what's the situation in in in that if you've got a lot of community leaders and they've got their own systems. 

00:08:22 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK. 

00:08:29 Dan Hope 

Well, what's your role within that? 

00:08:31 

Thank you. 

00:08:31 Dan Hope 

And then that comes to know your organization. 

00:08:33 Dan Hope 

What can you offer and what is your role? 

00:08:37 Dan Hope 

Right? 

00:08:38 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Soon after, thank you, thank you for that. 

00:08:39 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

So I mean, we talk about reintegration and then reunification where reintegration. 

00:08:44 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Like placing children back into families and then the verification like making those placement permanent so the children do not separate, you know family do not so they don't separate again so. 

00:08:56 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

With all these lessons, all these key insight to share with the CRC case managers over these past four days. 

00:09:03 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

What are some of the ways you think will be useful for their job as social workers? 

00:09:08 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Now when they are working with the not only the children but they are working with their families as well and also their community. 

00:09:14 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

So how will this help them? 

00:09:16 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Really in their job. 

00:09:17 Dan Hope 

Hopefully, and it's integral, because if you're going to do successful reunifications then you have to know your child. 

00:09:27 Dan Hope 

You have to know your family and you have to know your community. 

00:09:29 Dan Hope 

OK, yeah, and the the more you know, the more rich the information is, the more likely is you're going to identify where the needs are and you're going to identify whether risks are. 

00:09:40 Dan Hope 

Yeah, because reunification isn't a problem free. 

00:09:41 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK. 

00:09:44 Dan Hope 

Yeah, thing you know there will be things there that. 

00:09:47 Dan Hope 

Uh, could make it fragile. 

00:09:49 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and our job is not to run away from that. 

00:09:52 Dan Hope 

Our job is to go there and say, right? 

00:09:54 Dan Hope 

How can I strengthen that? 

00:09:55 Dan Hope 

How can I put in an infrastructure or a structure that is going to hold that family? 

00:10:01 Dan Hope 

OK, and we did a, I mean Laura and Andrew can talk about this, but we did a string exercise. 

00:10:08 Dan Hope 

At the end, and you know, and part of that is showing. 

00:10:12 Dan Hope 

It's not just about reunification, it's stopping the whole risk of the child going into alternative care in the first place. 

00:10:19 

OK. 

00:10:19 Dan Hope 

What can you do to create that strong bond where that parent feels safe? 

00:10:25 Dan Hope 

The child feels safe, they feel secure, and that's not just about their parenting. 

00:10:30 Dan Hope 

It's about their environment. 

00:10:31 

Right? 

00:10:32 Dan Hope 

How do we meet their needs to be the parent they want to be? 

00:10:35 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Well, thank you, thank you and do you want to draw a light on this interview as well? 

00:10:40 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Well, one thing that we learned in that string exercise which what happened is we kind of all stood in a circle and the child stood in the middle. 

00:10:47 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

The person playing the child and we read through a scenario of kind of a a case in which a child was at risk of separation from his mother, he'd already experienced. 

00:11:00 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Separation from his father and then Dan kind of took us through all the different ways that the child could move. 

00:11:08 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Kind of from place to place and experience the like a breakup of. 

00:11:13 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Relationships with each move. 

00:11:15 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

So even if it's the mother moving to a new city with the child or a new village with the child to the social worker or the state, let's say coming in and putting that child in an alternative care setting and a foster a foster placement not working out. 

00:11:34 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And then being in an orphanage temporarily and then trying to make it work with the father and then going back into the orphanage and then going into a foster family and then eventually going back into the mother and he the string exercise he showed us how. 

00:11:48 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

You know this child was kind of connecting via this string to all of these different attachments and building those kind of attachments and they over and over and over again. 

00:11:57 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Those attachments get cut and the so the the CRC staffer who was playing the role of the child in this exercise, Dan asked him at the end. 

00:12:06 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Well, how did you feel as you were going through this? 

00:12:09 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Exercise and this staffer said I started to feel like this was all my fault. 

00:12:15 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Like I was the one guilty and responsible for the fact that all of these attachments had severed and when it came time for them him to try and reattach to his mother at the end of the scenario. 

00:12:28 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

There was still work to be done because the child who's who's had all these relationships sever then naturally may develop a fear or concern that that his primary caregiver attachment may one day run away from him and be severed again too. 

00:12:44 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And so there's a lot of work to be done to sort of support that relationship. 

00:12:48 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

What Dan was sort of. 

00:12:50 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

One of the key learnings from that whole exercise was that had the sort of social worker and the organization right from the start, son truly a proper assessment of the child and the mother initially in their context to the fullest degree and and. 

00:13:09 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And a well rounded holistic kind of assessment, not just one of these checkbox assessments then. 

00:13:14 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Then the there could have been more support types of of services offered to this family, so that maybe this child would not have had to go through all of this saga of of fractured relationships and different placements. 

00:13:30 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And so the importance of kind of doing that initial very full. 

00:13:34 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Assassins right? 

00:13:35 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and and just. 

00:13:36 Dan Hope 

We're saying. 

00:13:37 Dan Hope 

That that the string exercise was a case study that built on a case study exercises that we were doing. 

00:13:44 Dan Hope 

We were already doing in terms of assessments and what's interesting is in the analysis by the by the people there they identify what actually happened in the string exercise. 

00:13:57 Dan Hope 

So in the string exercise, mum abandoned the child from for a moment in the assessment when mum was still with the child. 

00:14:04 Dan Hope 

The the social workers had identified that this was a risk that might happen. 

00:14:09 Dan Hope 

So there was already the fact that it was identified as a need that because there was a risk, there was a need of. 

00:14:15 Dan Hope 

How can we strengthen mum and make sure that that didn't happen? 

00:14:19 Dan Hope 

Well and yet you know, in the other exercise as he did, and that kind of shows that the the more in depth your assessments you will identify those risks and those needs. 

00:14:28 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And then be able to prevent that. 

00:14:30 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Happening yeah yeah, another thing I just wanted to say that I think was a key theme running through the whole training but also illustrated by this exercise is that I think to zoom out a little bit when people you know when when organizations start to think about transition transitioning their model of care, there's the whole issue of sort of timing and pacing and how quickly. 

00:14:51 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Do you do the transition and uhm? 

00:14:51 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

New to huh? 

00:14:55 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And and some organizations, maybe. 

00:14:59 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

You know there starts to get momentum that gets built for. 

00:15:01 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

OK, we're going to get on this. 

00:15:03 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

This movement forward of transition and maybe these organizations think, well, the donors need to know that we're doing this efficiently and effectively, like very fast, and we're getting these kids like how quickly can we get these? 

00:15:15 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Kids back into families and I know from your experience working at the CRC, you know you wanted to make sure that as much as possible, the kind of the process was done safely for the children and really not rushing the process. 

00:15:27 

Yes, yes. 

00:15:32 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Of reuniting children with their families, and I think Dan coming in here and talking with the group further about. 

00:15:40 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Actually, the complexity of within, uh, let's say a residential program of first asking like before you even start. 

00:15:52 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

You know, integrating those children back into family? 

00:15:54 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

He's doing an internal kind of assessment within your residential program about your safety policies and the services that you're offering, and things like that and and really understanding the community that you're working in and the communities that the children are going to be going back to. 

00:16:14 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

But then, once you're kind. 

00:16:16 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Of also identifying the families taking the time to do these kind of full assessments. 

00:16:22 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And then taking the time to ask? 

00:16:25 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Well, how is our program if it's going to offer community based services after we change, you know we change from our residential model. 

00:16:33 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

What kinds of services are we going to be offering? 

00:16:36 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And as Dan talked about earlier, like are those going to be kind of green type of services that are open to? 

00:16:42 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Everyone in the community. 

00:16:43 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Or are they going to be more? 

00:16:44 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Orange type of services that are support services for. 

00:16:47 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Kind of certain segments of people who meet criteria for at risk families. 

00:16:53 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Are they going to be orange type services that are more for like families, where we're really worried about a possibility of harm or neglect? 

00:17:01 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Or are they going to be, you know, red type services where we are actually kind of taking responsibility? 

00:17:08 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

For for the alternative, care placement, and so if if you can do that, and and having a deep understanding of. 

00:17:16 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Of that continuum of services and the complexity of the assessment process means then that the transition from a residential model of care to a community based care family based care program by necessity needs to go slowly and not to rush it. 

00:17:33 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:17:33 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Because if you rush it, you do. 

00:17:36 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

You are at risk of doing harm to the children and you are at risk of doing harm to the whole movement. 

00:17:42 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Frankly, because if we you know what we don't want is. 

00:17:46 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Is UM, as we're built, you know, as people are building the case for a kind of global movement for a transition to family based care, while maybe maintaining some kind of children homes for specialized purposes. 

00:18:00 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

If what we want is this to be done well across the board so that people can gain more and more trust. 

00:18:03 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Yes, yes. 

00:18:07 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

In the opportunities and the possibilities for doing this work and what we don't want is things to be done poorly where you're putting children at risk and you end up getting placements that kind of fall apart or you lose track of the children. 

00:18:20 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

So that was very useful, yeah? 

00:18:22 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and and I think that that for me comes too. 

00:18:26 Dan Hope 

We can't play with people's lives. 

00:18:28 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Some people's lives. I like that. 

00:18:29 Dan Hope 

You know, you know this is people lives. 

00:18:31 Dan Hope 

This is. 

00:18:31 Dan Hope 

This is about their relationships. 

00:18:34 Dan Hope 

It's about their identity, it's it's about everything that about them. 

00:18:37 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and we can't play at that. 

00:18:40 Dan Hope 

You know, if we choose to be involved in this then we have to take the responsibility that we do this. 

00:18:47 Dan Hope 

Yeah, otherwise you're playing, yeah, and that's not fair to the children. 

00:18:51 Dan Hope 

Yeah, all their families, yeah, yeah. 

00:18:53 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Laura, I was just going to ask you like we had an interesting conversation yesterday as well about kind of the responsibility of organizations to care leavers, and I'm wondering if that might be something that you want to touch on now or later in the conversation and kind of maybe some of the surprises of that for you. 

00:19:13 Dr. Laura Horvath 

So I think for us from help, the helping children worldwide, you know perspective. 

00:19:19 Dr. Laura Horvath 

We have had this had this kind of dawning awareness over the past couple of years that the care leavers who left who had left the orphanage had aged out of the orphanage before the transition. 

00:19:31 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I think at the time of transition we were focused on the children that lived here and and getting them into families and making sure those were permanent and making sure the families have the support that they needed. 

00:19:41 Dr. Laura Horvath 

To the extent that we understood how to do that. 

00:19:44 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And and I think. 

00:19:45 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I think it's fair to say that we thought that the care leavers had moved on to the next stage of their life when we were sort of out of the business of needing to care for them. 

00:19:56 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I think over the past couple of years we've had this dawning awareness that we really have let them down, and that there has been harm in some cases. 

00:20:04 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Some care leavers have done. 

00:20:06 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Well and found a footing in the in the world outside and and started their own families and and seemed to be doing fairly well, but others are not and and you know others are really struggling in ways that concern us. 

00:20:20 Dr. Laura Horvath 

One of the things Dan said to us. 

00:20:22 Dr. Laura Horvath 

We had kind of a more a smaller session with the leadership yesterday. 

00:20:26 Dr. Laura Horvath 

One of the things he kind of put on our hearts is. 

00:20:29 Dr. Laura Horvath 

You know when when you're a parent? 

00:20:32 Dr. Laura Horvath 

You're not apparent until that child becomes an adult, a recognized legal adult, or whatever. 

00:20:37 Dr. Laura Horvath 

You decide that cutoff is, and then now you're done, and you know that that person is launched and they are never going to need you again when you're a parent, you're a parent for the rest of your life and that person you know maybe 40 years old and may pick up the phone and call you and say, you know something happened and I need your help. 

00:20:53 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And that there is a moral and an ethical responsibility. 

00:20:57 Dr. Laura Horvath 

That parents have to their children even once they have grown up and gotten out on their own, and because as an orphanage we assumed the parent role for those care leavers, and because they didn't leave our orphanage and go get attached to a family that would then become their parent, we are their parents. 

00:21:18 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And so, Andrea, one of the things you said yesterday that really resonated me 'cause my daughter is getting married this year, is, you know, one thing parents do for adult children sometimes is help them with their wedding or help them get get, you know, a little money to get their first house started or loan them money you know to buy a car, repair a car or something like that. 

00:21:38 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And you know, from an organizational standpoint that's a whole like wow. 

00:21:42 Dr. Laura Horvath 

How do we manage that? 

00:21:44 Dr. Laura Horvath 

But from a moral and ethical place that makes perfect sense. 

00:21:49 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And and so. 

00:21:51 Dan Hope 

And and I think it's a. 

00:21:53 Dan Hope 

It's a really big piece of the transition work that can get missed. 

00:21:57 Dan Hope 

Yeah, that you see the trends when you transition as an organization from orphanage to something else, yeah? 

00:22:05 Dan Hope 

You still have responsibilities to those. 

00:22:08 Dan Hope 

Children, yeah, you decided to be a parent for those children. 

00:22:12 Dan Hope 

The children didn't decide that. 

00:22:14 Dan Hope 

You did. 

00:22:15 

OK. 

00:22:15 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and by taking on that responsibility you have taken on a responsibility to that child for a significant period of time, and that doesn't just stop. 

00:22:25 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK. 

00:22:25 Dan Hope 

You know you you have chosen to take that role of being the parent, therefore that being a parent means it's lifelong. 

00:22:32 Dan Hope 

That doesn't mean you're you're determining their life, it's about how do you provide that support to enable that person to thrive. 

00:22:40 

OK. 

00:22:41 Dan Hope 

Yeah, and and for a lot of care, leavers, you know when you've gone out from one place into another world that you've been away from, it can be a strange or it can be an unsafe. 

00:22:52 Dan Hope 

Place if you haven't got a big support network, yeah, you haven't got a very strong family that is going. 

00:22:58 Dan Hope 

To come in and actually provide you what you are looking for. 

00:23:02 Dan Hope 

You're going to struggle, yeah? 

00:23:04 Dan Hope 

And the world is going to be an unsafe place where you not feeling quite connected, yeah? 

00:23:10 Dan Hope 

We have then a moral and ethical responsibility to be the parents still. 

00:23:14 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Right Dan, can I ask you this? 

00:23:14 Dan Hope 

You know? 

00:23:15 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Because I I had a conversation a couple months ago with with a colleague who supported an orphanage that you know for a period of time, transitioned that orphanage, kind of in the same sort of feel that HKW is, and she talked about how they have sort of a similar story with their care leavers. 

00:23:32 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And now she's feeling so kind of. 

00:23:34 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Guilty and regretful that it's hard for her to now go back to those care leavers and sort of rebuild those bridges, you know. 

00:23:42 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Try to like what would your recommendation be for people who feel like? 

00:23:46 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Well, well, I screwed that up and now too much time has passed and it it's like how do I go back? 

00:23:53 Dan Hope 

I think it. 

00:23:55 Dan Hope 

There are lots of different ways you can do it, whether it's it's within your own organization or whether it's working with others in the communities where they where. 

00:24:03 Dan Hope 

Where your care leavers exist so it comes a little bit back to you, know the continuum of services and and and knowing you know, knowing your organization. 

00:24:11 Dan Hope 

Know in your community, knowing your context, you know as well as knowing your child. 

00:24:15 Dan Hope 

Family if you do that in your kind of planning of transition, then you can understand well. 

00:24:22 Dan Hope 

Is there a role for us to be that provider? 

00:24:24 Dan Hope 

Or can we use other organisations to be the ones who support? 

00:24:28 Dan Hope 

And I think if you've done it and you're feeling. 

00:24:31 Dan Hope 

You know you will have emotions. 

00:24:33 Dan Hope 

You might feel I did a really bad job as a parent. 

00:24:36 Dan Hope 

Well, lots of parents. 

00:24:37 Dan Hope 

We all make mistakes. 

00:24:38 

Right? 

00:24:38 Dan Hope 

You know parenting is not an easy. 

00:24:41 Dan Hope 

You will have a good intention. 

00:24:43 Dan Hope 

Part of it is about we still have that moral and ethical responsibility. 

00:24:48 Dan Hope 

We can't just walk away, you know, and we have to face that, and we have to front it. 

00:24:53 Dan Hope 

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to do it, but it might be that you can support other organisations in those communities to take on that responsibility. 

00:25:02 Dan Hope 

And that you know that might be you financially support them. 

00:25:04 Dan Hope 

That might be in any other means, but I don't think we can just walk away. 

00:25:10 Dan Hope 

By our own feelings, yeah, you know, as hard as that is and we have to recognize how hard that is and we need to support people. 

00:25:17 Dan Hope 

You know it's not a blame game. 

00:25:19 Dan Hope 

It's about supporting everyone. 

00:25:21 Dan Hope 

Uhm, but we can't just then say I'm going to walk away because of how I feel. 

00:25:27 Dan Hope 

You know, we chose this. 

00:25:29 Dan Hope 

We chose to do it. 

00:25:31 Dan Hope 

We gotta we gotta follow that through. 

00:25:34 Dr. Laura Horvath 

You know the other thing that really struck me this week, and maybe it's it's like on on the front of my mind 'cause it's the last conversation that we had. 

00:25:42 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Uhm, you helped the leaders yesterday sort of understand how where our current programming is sort of in the Green Zone and the yellow zone in the orange zone and the red zone and and how it's spread across this continuum of services, and perhaps is spreading that too thin and how important it is, because I think. 

00:26:02 Dr. Laura Horvath 

You know, we get into this work. 

00:26:04 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Lots of organizations like us get into this work and we want to do everything. 

00:26:08 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And the problem is you can't do everything well and you have to sort of figure out where you where your strengths and your skills and abilities sit and and you have to make hard choices about what you will and won't do. 

00:26:19 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And while I understood that I think intellectually going into this week, it really sunk in yesterday and So what would you say to organizations? 

00:26:28 Dr. Laura Horvath 

To help them understand like figure out what you can and cannot do. 

00:26:34 Dan Hope 

And I think that that a little bit comes back to the whole exercise of going through, you know, knowing your children, knowing your families and and and I will I will. 

00:26:43 Dan Hope 

I can't emphasize about how important those five things are. 

00:26:47 Dan Hope 

Yeah, so. 

00:26:49 Dan Hope 

If you ask if you have still got your children home or orphanage, then you need to know your children and you need to know the children families. 

00:26:57 Dan Hope 

So your first stage is that care planning because part of what that will help you to do is then start to understand and recognize where are the communities that you need to know about because they might not be located in the same place. 

00:27:10 Dan Hope 

As your children home and orphanage, yeah. 

00:27:13 Dan Hope 

By knowing that you can then get to know well what resources exist by getting to know that you can then say, OK there are needs here. 

00:27:22 Dan Hope 

In these communities where we can then strengthen those families who might have these areas of need, you know, and you want to do that because you want to protect your children. 

00:27:34 Dan Hope 

Yeah, so then you can build from there and say well what's more context, what we're legally are. 

00:27:39 Dan Hope 

We allowed to do and not allowed to do you know what is it that we can tap into in terms of what structures already exist at a Community level? 

00:27:48 Dan Hope 

Often in many communities there are community leaders or their own community structures. 

00:27:53 Dan Hope 

You know they could be informal, they could be. 

00:27:55 Dan Hope 

Formal yeah, use them. 

00:27:57 Dan Hope 

You know they are there, they work, you know we. 

00:28:01 Dan Hope 

We shouldn't be there to take over something we should be there to support something and and to enable it. 

00:28:07 Dan Hope 

And then it's about knowing your organization well, what's your skill base? 

00:28:11 Dan Hope 

You know what's your finances? 

00:28:14 Dan Hope 

Can you afford to spread yourself really thinly and then do a little bit of lots of things? 

00:28:19 Dan Hope 

Or do you want to do something really well, you know? 

00:28:22 Dan Hope 

And what do you need? 

00:28:23 Dan Hope 

Who do you need? 

00:28:24 Dan Hope 

You know? 

00:28:25 Dan Hope 

And then it's about. 

00:28:27 Dan Hope 

From there you can create your plan and say well, what is it that we want to be? 

00:28:31 Dan Hope 

What is now our new mission? 

00:28:33 Dan Hope 

And purpose, yeah. 

00:28:34 Dan Hope 

You know, and I think those things are are crucial. 

00:28:38 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Yeah so so thank you a quick question for the I have. 

00:28:41 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

I've had people ask me about continuous services. 

00:28:45 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Now we're talking about children going home and staying with their families, and then that's great. 

00:28:51 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

You have here what from your training talking about assessing the needs of family and those children that are already home now and with their family in the community. 

00:28:59 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

How long do you provide the consumer service easy by case by case for family and how long do you see? 

00:29:04 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Because so that when children are home now with their families, but your organization, maybe parents still having kind of parent in quotation mark. 

00:29:11 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

With to those families and the children, how long will you continue to be that kind? 

00:29:16 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Of peer rate in. 

00:29:17 Dan Hope 

In in so, so there are two. 

00:29:19 Dan Hope 

There are two parts to that. 

00:29:21 Dan Hope 

Yeah, one is where is a child who has been in your organization. 

00:29:25 Dan Hope 

You've you've taken care of that child into your children, so more orphanage then I would say there's a responsibility for a long period of time. 

00:29:33 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Lumpp your time. 

00:29:34 Dan Hope 

OK, but what you are trying to do is you're going to work to enable that family to become independent. 

00:29:40 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Anyway, OK that no matter how long that takes, yeah. 

00:29:40 Dan Hope 

OK, so. 

00:29:43 Dan Hope 

So, So what you are looking for? 

00:29:45 Dan Hope 

Well, I you will support that family until they get to a point where you as a social worker and as a case manager, decide from your assessments that they no longer need you. 

00:29:55 Dan Hope 

Yeah, right, and that comes to the skill of the social worker, there's no definition of when that. 

00:30:02 Dan Hope 

Windows OK, huh? 

00:30:04 Dan Hope 

There's no cut off point. 

00:30:05 Dan Hope 

Yeah it. 

00:30:06 Dan Hope 

It's only some families will be absolutely fine, straight away and you'll go and say, actually, is there a really a role for us? 

00:30:09 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK. 

00:30:14 Dan Hope 

Can we do anything right and and you you won't need to stay involved with others. 

00:30:20 Dan Hope 

You will need to be involved for a long period of time. 

00:30:22 Dan Hope 

OK, OK bear in mind. 

00:30:24 Dan Hope 

That you know that child might have been away, especially for children who've been away from that parent for a long period of time. 

00:30:31 Dan Hope 

You know, there's probably a lot of work there. 

00:30:32 Dan Hope 

Yeah, to be done to help build those relationships back. 

00:30:36 Dan Hope 

Up will that attachment back up, you know, but with other families where you've not had them in your children home and orphanage, then that is on, uh, needs. 

00:30:36 

OK. 

00:30:45 Dan Hope 

Case by case basis OK and what you are looking for is an organization is how can you. 

00:30:50 Dan Hope 

You want to be moving families on because you want them. 

00:30:52 Dan Hope 

To be able to to care for themselves, you know it. 

00:30:55 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Oh, OK. 

00:30:57 Dan Hope 

What we don't want to do is create dependency 'cause then you can only work with a certain. 

00:31:01 Dan Hope 

Amount of families. 

00:31:01 

Right? 

00:31:02 Dan Hope 

Yeah yeah yeah. 

00:31:03 Dan Hope 

And actually a lot of people motivation within this. 

00:31:06 Dan Hope 

This transition part is you want to work with more. 

00:31:09 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Right? 

00:31:10 Dan Hope 

Yeah, you want to make your impact be wider in the community. 

00:31:14 Dan Hope 

So that means you can't. 

00:31:15 Dan Hope 

You don't want to create dependency. 

00:31:16 Dan Hope 

You want to be supporting and enabling families to get into the green. 

00:31:20 Dan Hope 

Where they thrive. 

00:31:21 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

OK, thank you. 

00:31:22 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you. 

00:31:22 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

So maybe go around to for you guys to see what your your last words are. 

00:31:28 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Message to the people that are audience who are listening out there. 

00:31:31 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

So as we try to wrap this up. 

00:31:32 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

For this week. 

00:31:34 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Now we talk about assessing the needs of children and families and then and providing continual services and have that facing within the. 

00:31:41 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Context of transitioning your model of care from orphanage to community based care or family based care. What message would you like to have people to take home and key take away from this? 

00:31:52 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

As there are many many organizations and this become a global movement, now transitioning to a family based care organization are trying to do it. 

00:31:58 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

It's a long journey where all people on different parts on that longer journey, so people are struggling with some people are, you know, just flowing through that and So what pieces of advice or recommendations or suggestions can you or message can you give? 

00:32:12 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

How their detail field from the training we've done so we start with Dan. 

00:32:17 Dan Hope 

Uhm, I'd come back to we don't we don't play. 

00:32:21 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

We don't play. 

00:32:21 Dan Hope 

OK, we take this seriously. 

00:32:24 Dan Hope 

We we we plan this seriously and we equip and by equip I mean we equip the workers who are going to do the job. 

00:32:33 Dan Hope 

And they will need support. 

00:32:35 Dan Hope 

You know social work is hard, huh? 

00:32:37 Dan Hope 

Yeah, there are a lot of simple ideas in social work, but to do it is should be complex, right? 

00:32:43 Dan Hope 

And we need to be upskilling people and supporting people to be able to develop the skills that the families and children require from us. 

00:32:52 Dan Hope 

You know, we're making these choices. 

00:32:54 Dan Hope 

We need to choose to do it. 

00:32:56 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you, thank you Don. 

00:32:57 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you, Andrew. 

00:33:00 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Well, for me, actually sort of a theme that I've been touching on this week. 

00:33:04 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Uhm, also because it's just an interest of mine is actually the role of spirituality in this work. 

00:33:11 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And when I say spirituality, I mean spirituality defined broadly. 

00:33:14 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

So there are, let's say, faith based organizations that are doing this work. 

00:33:18 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

There are also non faith based organizations that are doing this work and by spirituality I'm talking about. 

00:33:24 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

About things like meaning and purpose, a sense of belonging, the moral and ethical responsibilities. 

00:33:33 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

What sources do you lean into in your own life to find the courage to do this kind of work and supporting kind of respecting, let's say the various faiths of the families that you might be working with? 

00:33:45 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

And honoring those and working with the families own spiritual resources as a. 

00:33:52 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

Uh, motivation for for change and for ongoing for the families to kind of have the courage also to engage in this hard as Laura would say, hard heart work and so I would really encourage all organizations that are that are interested in this work to just check in. 

00:34:13 Dr. Andrea Siegel 

With the and and to integrate this kind of spirituality, defined broadly into the the the daily processes and the kind of personal journey of doing this work. 

00:34:26 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you, thank. 

00:34:27 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

You and Laura. 

00:34:29 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Well as the not social worker in this group. 

00:34:33 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I think the the key takeaways for me or the key messages for me. 

00:34:36 Dr. Laura Horvath 

If you're an organization considering transition embarking on transition in the process of transition, one thing we've learned is to go slowly. 

00:34:46 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Now you you have always said, you know, keep your foot on the gas and always be moving forward but but you don't want to miss any steps along the way and so to proceed slowly and cautiously. 

00:34:53 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Right, right? 

00:34:56 Dr. Laura Horvath 

I think even to look at your transition, maybe from the perspective of a social worker where you're kind of constantly assessing the organization and the things that you're doing and listening to the needs of the community and the needs of your family and making decisions you know based on the information that you're taking in. 

00:35:13 Dr. Laura Horvath 

And the other thing I would say is there is a. 

00:35:16 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Global network of practitioners and various you know pieces of this. 

00:35:22 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Work there is no reason to do this in isolation, and it's not a good idea to do that. 

00:35:27 Dr. Laura Horvath 

You need to reach out to organizations like strengthening families and children that have, you know, have their area of expertise and can help build the capacity in certain key areas. 

00:35:37 Dr. Laura Horvath 

There are other organizations you know in education and advocacy and. 

00:35:42 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Systems change and and what has benefited us. 

00:35:46 Dr. Laura Horvath 

Since we've even started thinking or talking about transition is reaching out to other people and finding out what they know that we don't know, and having the humility to accept, help and ask for help along the way, and so those would be, I think my two key pieces of. 

00:36:03 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Advice, thank you very much. 

00:36:05 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Well thank you all for this and. 

00:36:06 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you Dan, Andrea and Laura for sharing with us this important insight as we. 

00:36:11 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

We all work to take the best care of of the children God has placed in our care and to our amazing listeners partners. 

00:36:19 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you so much and please leave a comment below if you have questions, and then we'll be happy to to answer those questions and get back to you. 

00:36:26 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you. 

00:36:27 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Big pleasure being with you and God bless you all. 

00:36:30 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you. 

00:36:31 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Please continue to tune into the Happy Children Worldwide Optimistic Voices Podcast. 

00:36:35 E. M. "Nabs" Nabieu 

Thank you and you have a great day.