Optimistic Voices
Vital voices in the fields of global health, global child welfare reform and family separation, and those intent on conducting ethical missions in low resource communities and developing nations. Join our hosts as they engage in conversations with diverse guests from across the globe, sharing optimistic views, experiences, and suggestions for better and best practices as they discuss these difficult topics.
Optimistic Voices
From Playgrounds to Paramilitary: The Stolen Children and Dark Reality Behind Russia's "Evacuation" of Ukrainian Kids
The systematic abduction and militarization of Ukrainian children by Russian forces represents one of the most devastating yet underreported aspects of the ongoing war. In this eye-opening conversation, Ukrainian historian and religious scholar Vladislav Haverlov reveals the shocking scope and calculated nature of Russia's deportation campaign targeting Ukrainian youth.
His research with the Institute of World History at Ukraine's National Academy of Sciences and his work documenting war crimes with multiple humanitarian organizations exposes the brutal reality behind Russia's euphemistically labeled "evacuations." Since February 2022, Russian authorities have forcibly transferred thousands of Ukrainian children from occupied territories to Russia, with official counts identifying 19,546 deported children. Most alarmingly, only 1,366 have been successfully returned after three years of war.
Children are taken by bus or train, processed through filtration camps & dispersed across a network of "temporary accommodation centers" throughout Russia. Many are deliberately sent to remote regions like Siberia. In these facilities, Ukrainian children undergo systematic indoctrination, losing their documents, language, and cultural identity. They are funneled into paramilitary organizations like "Young Army" where children as young as eight receive military training.
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A bible study for groups and individuals, One Twenty-Seven: The Widow and the Orphan by Dr Andrea Siegel explores the themes of the first chapter of James, and in particular, 1:27. In James, we learn of our duty to the vulnerable in the historical context of the author. Order here or digital download
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Welcome to the Optimistic Voices podcast. We're your hosts, Yasmin Vaughn and Laura Horka. In this episode, we're going to talk to Vladislav Haverlov, researcher and historian, on the issue impacting Ukrainian children in the current war with Russia. Many of our listeners are familiar with the history of helping children worldwide and how we got our start as an orphanage launched in response to an 11-year civil war in Sierra Leone, which resulted in thousands of children being separated from their families. What we don't talk a lot about is a subset of children who were kidnapped and forced to participate in the violence as child soldiers during that war.
Speaker 2:During the Sierra Leone Civil War, which lasted from 1991 to 2002, the use of child soldiers became one of the most horrific aspects of the conflict. Armed groups, most notably the Revolutionary United Front, or RUF, abducted thousands of children, some as young as seven years old, from their homes and their villages. These children were forcibly conscripted, brutalized and often forced to commit atrocities, including killing family members. In order to sever their emotional ties and ensure loyalty to their captors, Boys were typically trained as fighters. Girls were subjected to sexual violence and used as bushwives. The widespread use of child soldiers not only violated international humanitarian law, but it also left a deep and lasting impact on the children involved, many of whom faced immense psychological trauma and struggled to reintegrate into society after the war ended.
Speaker 3:Sadly, this practice is very common in conflict and is currently rearing its ugly head in another place around the world. In nearly every armed conflict since the beginning of time, children have participated in formal or informal military roles. Every year, the US State Department publishes a report called Trafficking in Persons, which includes a list of foreign governments identified during the previous year as having governmental armed forces, police work or other security forces that are recruiting and using child soldiers. On the list in 2024 was Afghanistan, burma, cameroon, central African Republic, democratic Republic of Congo, iran, libya, mali, russia, rwanda, somalia, south Sudan, sudan, syria, turkey, venezuela and Yemen.
Speaker 3:In today's episode, we are going to be talking specifically about Russia. Russia's use of child soldiers is starkly highlighted in Vladislav's recent article for Georgetown University's Collaborative on Global Children's Issues, where he detailed how abducted Ukrainian children are being deported, ideologically re-educated and militarized. This article speaks of thousands of Ukrainian minors that are forcibly transferred from occupied territories and placed into so-called temporary accommodation centers in Russia, where they are indoctrinated through state-backed paramilitary organizations. Vladislav emphasizes that such practices abduction, rucification and forced military training constitute clear violations of international humanitarian law and underscore a troubling pattern the systematic recruitment of children as instruments of war.
Speaker 2:Vlad is a Ukrainian historian and a religious scholar based in Kyiv. His research interests include the history of mass deportations in the Soviet era, state confessional relations, the policy of the Catholic Church during World War II and the role of Christian clergy in the Holocaust. He's pursuing doctoral work on Vatican policy during World War II the role of Christian clergy in the Holocaust. He's pursuing doctoral work on Vatican policy during World War II and he works with the Institute of World History at the National Academy of Sciences in Ukraine, where he specializes in the history of international religious relations in the 20th century and the study of genocide and war crimes in Europe. Vlad is an analyst at the Media Initiative for Human Rights, where he focuses on reporting on crimes committed against prisoners of war and civilian detainees on the Russian Federation's territory. He is also an invited expert with the charity foundation East SOS, where he works to document Russian war crimes against Ukrainian children in the aftermath of the full-scale Russian invasion. He further serves as an advisor to the Child Deportation Investigative Task Force at OSINT for Ukraine. Vlad is a 2024-2025 Collaborative Fellow with the Collaborative on Global Children's Issues at Georgetown University, where he was previously a 2023-2024 Research Fellow, and his work has focused on the forcible transfer, deportation, adoption and re-education of Ukrainian children by Russia.
Speaker 2:Vlad. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm very glad to see you all.
Speaker 3:To begin, I wonder if you can share a bit of world history on children's involvement in conflict settings.
Speaker 4:Yes, thank you.
Speaker 4:You know it's a very hard for understanding question because if we're talking about especially how many children are involved during especially last 2021 century in war conflict, we could mention about more than 400 million children in all over the world involved and injured from war conflict and it's a global problem.
Speaker 4:And you know especially about what you mentioned earlier, about the problem with war crimes against children in Sierra Leone, in Rwanda, in Asian countries, and especially what we know right now about Russian war crimes against Ukrainian children. And it should notice that it's not only new practice, because we know about especially a lot about Soviet practice when from west part of Ukraine and from central part of Ukraine, people with children and with adult people are forcibly deported, that they're fighting against Soviet regime and they're deported to Siberia and to the northern Kazakhstan. And in the last years we just investigated this problem as a historian and we decided maybe it's only history, but you know it's not only history. It's happened right now again, it's happened after 2014, but very forcible happened, especially after 24 February 2022. It's a thousand of war crimes, what we know right now about Russian officials who are doing these crimes against Ukrainian children and, for a pity, it's our everyday reality right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you mentioned this is not new, and I think for those of us who have been with our organization for a while, our desire to care for children who've lived through trauma is something that underlies a lot of the work that we do, and this is going to touch a very deep chord with those who are listening. We do, and this is going to touch a very deep chord with those who are listening. It is still been very surprising to me to realize how often this happens in conflicts.
Speaker 4:So why do you think that is the case? If we're talking about war conflict, all in general, a lot of soldiers who are trying to occupy some territories, they try to use children in these occupied territories and it's different cases. Sometimes they try to use these children for helping in some medicine cases, these children for helping in some medicine cases, some bodies. They try to adopt these children but sometimes in very tragical cases they try to growing up these children, erased their identity and recreating these children to their future soldiers. And it's a usual criminal practice in different war conflict, what we mentioned last time.
Speaker 3:So can you help our listeners understand the scale of what's happening right now in Russia? What do we know, what do we not know yet about the abduction and militarization of Ukrainian children by Russian forces?
Speaker 4:Yes, you know, after 24 February 2022, when Russia officials, russian president, decided to occupy Ukraine and Russian troops occupied land by land of Ukrainian regions. They after that, forcible deported children to Russia, especially from occupied territories. From my investigation I know that it started not only 24 February. Some cases happened, especially from 2014. From occupied Crimea, they creating, like a train, evacuation trains, so-called evacuation trains, and remove children from occupied Crimea territories to Siberia, to Far East and to another different regions of Russia. But in 2022, it's more mass-stabbing this process and more mass this process.
Speaker 4:And what we mentioned is that, especially from occupied territories of Luhansk and Donetsk region of Ukraine, in 19 February 2022, before a week for full-scale invasion, they're creating for future evacuation trains and evacuation bus and after that they removed some adults and especially children from occupied territory of Luhansk region to Russian region near Ukrainian border. It's Rostov region of Russia, belgorod region of Russia, voronezh region of Russia. And after that they created like a temporary accommodation centers and they replaced in this temporary accommodation centers, especially Ukrainian children from occupied territories. And we mentioned that these temporarily accommodation centers, it's a lot of these centers in especially Russia territory. It's maybe 60, 70, nobody knows clearly number about that because they every day try to remove children in these centers and after that removed in next places far away from Ukrainian border, and this is a problem for what we have after full scale invasion with Russia.
Speaker 3:And so it's likely that this has been going on for a while, but really the massive movement of this began in 2022, and the children being deported in trains and on buses, but constantly being moved around in these temporary accommodation centers as well, so that they're not staying in a stable place.
Speaker 2:Well, and that makes it impossible Sorry, yes, it makes it impossible to keep track of them and for Ukraine to know where they wind up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, wow. So in your article, you write about the legal and moral dimensions of these crimes. So why do you think it is essential to frame this as a war crime rather than a simple humanitarian crisis, which is how Russia is framing this?
Speaker 4:Yes, you know it's considered with an evaluation against Ukrainian children. But it's war crimes because it's crimes against Geneva Convention and it's crimes that have effects of crimes against humanity. And war crimes because nobody has a chance to forcibly deport children from their native land to another country, especially if it's a country of occupiers, because Russian troops occupied these territories and especially deported these children to Russia. And if Ukrainian side tried to communicate with Russia side and said from them if you have some list of these children, maybe you have name and surname of these children they have no connection with Russian side because they don't want to give for Ukraine this information and especially these facts mentioned, that it's a war crime because it's a planned policy to forcibly deport a thousand of Ukrainian children from their native land to Russia territory and that's why it's a big and massive war crimes from last, maybe I don't know how many years from last, how many years, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So this isn't an instance of refugees being taken in by another nation during a conflict setting. We're talking about forcible deportation by the occupying force, not communicating with Ukraine about who these children are, where they are, where they came from, and all of that. So it is a violation of Geneva Conventions, not a not a simple matter of a country taking in refugees, and you also constitute it as a planned policy. This isn't by accident that this is happening.
Speaker 2:Well, and to that point I think a lot of your work, vlad, has focused on how this is a tactic that Russia has used in the past. Can you share a little bit of the history of Russia's paramilitary training and the indoctrination of children that they've done sort of historically?
Speaker 4:Yes, you know, from 2016 in Russia Federation they founded a paramilitary movement, more largest paramilitary movement from last time. It's called Young Army and it's Young Army created by ex-minister of defense Sergei Shoigu, and they try to educate children from 8 to 16 years old in paramilitary side and especially before full-scale invasion, most of branches of this movement existed only in Russia Federation, but after full-scale invasion they created new branches, especially new occupied territories, and these branches were founded especially in Donetsk, in Luhansk, in occupied Melitopol, in occupied Mariupol and occupied Hynichesk, berdyansk all of the city. For a pity, right now, under Russian occupation, they created this new branch of of a young army and they try to join for this paramilitary movement, especially children from occupied territories. Maybe we could compare it, because it's a very aggressive movement, you know. We could compare it with especially Hitlerjugend, because we know about effects, real effects, with photo with surname of children who are especially growing up in young army, last four or five years ago and, for a pity, they've been killed, especially in Russian armies. When they join after they already have 18 years old. They join two Russian forces and fighting against Ukraine.
Speaker 4:It's a circumstance of this paramilitary education, because Russian officials and officers brainwashed a lot of years their mind and after that they joined the Russian army and fought against Ukraine. So that's why it's a very dangerous movement. But what I want to mention is that it's not only one movement in occupied territories, because Russia is creating movements for all ages of children. If you are very small children, you could connect for Eagles of Russia. It's like from kindergarten age. After that you could join the young guard, after that you could join the young army. It's like a structure, structure of reeducational process, structure of paramilitary organization which tried to catch all of young age in occupied territories and, especially after that part of the children, tried to deport to Russia territory and growing up after that these children, especially in Russia territory.
Speaker 2:It's honestly so shocking to me the idea of these children being indoctrinated from very young ages and that that indoctrination just a year over year over year over year in these indoctrination camps. You speak of the young army having started in 2016 but now, of course, spreading since the occupation and new camps you know, springing up everywhere, but the thought of you know, now we have a kindergarten program so we can begin that indoctrination as early as possible, and then these children who are Ukrainian have their identities erased and their culture taken from them, their connection to their home country, and then end up, will end up. If you know, Russia has its way in conscripting them and fighting against their own countrymen in this conflict. It's a horrifying, it's just a horrifying thing. Horrifying, it's just a horrifying thing. Can you walk us through what typically happens to a child like sort of? Take us through a timeline of a child who gets deported from Ukraine to Russia?
Speaker 4:what those rehabilitation camps and temporary accommodation centers actually look like on the ground. Yes, you know, especially a first stage of this criminal process it's when, especially, they're taking children to bus or taking these children to evacuation train. In some cases they're taking these children with parents, in some cases without parents, especially orphans, and after that they must have some process in filtration camps. It's in a border with occupied territories of Ukraine and Russia. After filtration camps they are removed to temporary accommodation centers, temporary accommodation centers in general. It's a kindergarten, ex-kindergarten, it's a hostel for students from Soviet time.
Speaker 4:If you try to find, for example, information about these temporary accommodation centers it's so hard because Russia officials not silly, they don't have this name. Temporary accommodation centers it's like not very official information, they don't have this name. Temporary Accommodation Centers it's like not very official information. But if you analyze a lot of open sources you could find this information that, for example, children from Temporary Accommodation Centers, especially they hold from so-called Donetsk People's Republic, especially they hold from so-called Donetsk People's Republic, forcibly deported to Rostov from a hostel for students and it's more than 100 children about like healthy recreation centers and slash summer camps, flowers in Rostov region and it's usually summer camps from Soviet time, but right now in these summer camps they have a lot of children from occupied Donetsk region and every time they try to re-educate these children and sometimes they try to put for them Russian documents and cut especially Ukrainian documents. And it's how these temporary accommodation centers work on the ground.
Speaker 2:It almost sounds when you're describing like when you say a hostel, and it has kind of a school component. It sounds like a boarding school almost or an orphanage with an education piece or something like that. I think our listeners are going to be surprised to hear that some of these families like the first stage of this abduction is sometimes the parents are taken as well and sometimes you know it's just the orphans. How are children and families being targeted? So I think our listeners, because they're familiar with this sort of orphanage story, because that's in our background and so they understand, I think, intuitively, that an orphan, somebody separated from a family, is particularly vulnerable. But how did Russia target not just orphans but also children who have living parents that they were perhaps living with, like? What tactics did they use to legitimize or disguise their abductions and make them seem like they were something else?
Speaker 4:Yes, thank you, especially if we're talking about children who have parents, in some cases occupied administration. It's like a Russian, not especially official Russian administration. It's like a Russian, not especially official Russian administration, but it's collaborators with Russian administrators in occupied territories. They come to families and said you know, it's very dangerous in this place and you should only send your children to summer camps for recreation, for rehabilitation. After that parents asked these people about where are our children and they said you know you have no chance, especially to come back in right now, the children to home, because it's very dangerous in these places. And if you want you must go to Russia and try to come back in with your own the children to home, but if you don't want, they will be staying in Russia for the end of war.
Speaker 4:It's one case. Another case it's very tragic with orphans. Why very tragic? Because they have no connection with Ukrainian side. It's orphans, it's a very hard question and they only put these children from orphans and removed these children to Russian orphanage. And that's all I know about one case from Kherson region One head of orphan centers tried to save children and he saved these children in his home after that in church, but for a pity, russian soldiers found these children and after that deported these, this shooting to Russia, and so it's one of cases, how it works, and maybe I want to share for you stories about one man from Mariupol city especially.
Speaker 4:He has three children and one time Russian officials forcibly deported him with children to Russia, but they're staying him in filtration camps because they find photos with Ukrainian uniform from Ukrainian army, ukrainian uniform from Ukrainian army, and children especially deported far away to Moscow region to orphanage, and he has only small chance to connect with his children and if in future he don't go for his children and come back in this children to home, russian families could adopt his children. And it's very tragical stories but it's a reality, what we know, for example, from our evidence, it's a real story, what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:That's really heartbreaking. I know in our own stories we see a lot of parents who become convinced by corrupt orphanage leaders that their children know there are correct orphanage actors who will then deport those you know, send those children out for international adoption or, you know, and the unsuspecting family doesn't, you know, lose this track of their child forever. So it's not surprising to me, it's heartbreaking to me to hear of someone like this man who is you know, he's got his three children and then they're taken into an orphanage and he has the chance of losing them to a Russian family forever. So, yeah, that's very heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:So we talk a lot about this sort of the ways in which your article talks, a lot about the ways in which Russia sort of is taking these children, is reeducating them, moving them from place to place to place to place, changing their names, erasing their sort of Ukrainian identity. Obviously, orphans that come out of orphanages oftentimes there's not documentation that follows them, birth certificates and things that connect them to their families, to people in Ukraine, but even now, children that have been taken from families, russia is erasing their names and erasing their identity. And so what are the biggest risks for the children if these crimes are not being properly documented now Because, as you're saying, russia is telling one story to the world and violating Geneva Conventions by, you know, not doing things in terms of tracing kids and keeping them connected to their families and to Ukraine the way that they're supposed to.
Speaker 4:Yes, thank you. You know, for my mind, it's a global risk for these children to become future just Russian citizens. Why it could work? Because with my colleagues, especially not far away, we have a meeting and we discussed about, especially, how many children are successfully returned to Ukraine right now. And especially, we know about official numbers of identified children yes, 19,546. And from these numbers numbers, after three years of full-scale invasion force successfully returned only 1,366. And if you could thinking about that, you you should mention that it's maybe just a few hundred children per year and if this process will be so slowly, we must have 50 years to come back these children to home. It's not effective because after that they're growing up in Russia and it's a risk that after these years they said to us we don't want to come back into Ukraine.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's a global risk for these children, for my mind, yeah, so when we talked last week as we were preparing for this episode, I said to you that in my mind it's a kind of genocide. It's a way of erasing whole chunks of Ukraine just by re-educating well, indoctrinating these children and making them Russian and turning them into soldiers, and I think that word is probably shocking. It's probably not what I think our listeners may be thinking, but I think that's a fair assessment.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, I especially agree with you because it's some things that we should mention, that it's a kind of genocide Because, especially if you're talking about plant policy, to arise an identity about plant policy, not to come back in the children ever for Ukraine it's especially what you're talking about.
Speaker 3:Yes, and, not to mention, it's a violation of the UN Conventions on the Rights of a Child, which is to have a right to their own culture and language and people group. Yeah, in terms of other conventions that are being violated here we spoke a little bit about the Geneva Conventions and I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more on some of the conventions for children who are displaced and provide some more context as to what efforts Russia has made towards reuniting them and the things that they have not done that are violations.
Speaker 4:Yes, you know, it's several violations against Geneva Conventions and against the Rome Statute and against the Rome Statute, especially because you know, especially the 49th article of the Geneva Convention. You have no chance to deport people from one ethnic group to another in a war, conflict, conflict, and especially another article mentioned about that. If you are talking about evacuation, you should immediately inform native country with list of people who are evacuated from you, from you, and especially places where they are situated, especially individual names, surnames of these people. But Russian officials don't want to do that and especially it's a global problem and it's a several violation against Geneva Convention, against Rome Statute, against some acts of crimes against humanity. It's something that could be characters of genocide. They're doing all of this violation in their policy all of this violation in in their policy.
Speaker 3:So, with this being clear violations, you spoke about russia as a humanitarian. You know crisis not as a war crime, but how is it that they are, uh, characterizing it that way?
Speaker 4:uh About humanitarian crisis. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 4:Yes, you know, I think it's for my mind, maybe for my investigation, but it's a logical fact.
Speaker 4:You know, especially some of Russian officials in their speech talking about a very big demographic crisis in Russia and it could be one of the reasons why they forcibly deported Ukrainian children and don't want to share information about them and especially this problem creating a humanitarian crisis to Ukraine too.
Speaker 4:Creating a humanitarian crisis to Ukraine too, because you know, we lost a million of people for a pity last year, because some people were killed for a pity. Some people escaped against war abroad yes, to another country and nobody knows about their future decisions, if they want to come back into Ukraine or not to come back in Ukraine ever. And plus to it, we have this problem with these violations when Russia tried to specially stolen from Ukraine thousands of children. For Ukraine, it's a big humanitarian crisis, but I think for Russian side, they have a humanitarian crisis too, but especially with demography situation, and it's considered especially in far regions of Russia, especially in the Far East, in Siberia. So that's why it's very logical when we find especially temporary accommodation centers in Siberia and in the Far East for a pity, why they do that? Because they want to stay these children in these places and not to come back these children to home.
Speaker 3:And is there a window of opportunity for this? What happens to these children if too much time goes by without proper identification?
Speaker 4:identification. Yes, you know russian officials created a very strong program what they want to do with these children and we, for a pity, have not so many time what we could do with that because, especially every time, what I'm talking to you about earlier, they have a several branch of paramilitary organization. They have a several branch of summer camps. In summer camps they have with them another lessons like Russian patriotism especially. They try to explain for these children that it's especially mentioned that it's not war against ukraine, it's war against usa, against your european countries, because all these countries want to destroy it, especially russia, and you must be on Russia's side. It's a lot of these propaganda lessons for these children and it's what is more dangerous that it's child mind. You know they have no skills for a piteous right now to compare some facts, facts, and it's very hard for them. And if we not identify these children for a few years, we have a very big risk to lost these children. Yes, and especially why we do this work? Because it's very big risk to lost these children.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the the window of opportunity is really, um, it's very small because children's minds are so easily influenced and the more time that passes, the more of that indoctrination. Education has a an opportunity to take hold. Also spoke a little bit about about when we talked earlier this week about the use of children as combatants by militant groups versus the use of children by governments. Why is it that you think that's an important distinction to make? You know guerrilla groups or non-government-backed groups having an uprising that recruits children versus government-supported recruitment of children.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, it's.
Speaker 4:You know it's a plant policy what I'm talking about earlier, and it's very dangerous policy because how it works.
Speaker 4:For example, we have some stories with our colleagues from Charity Foundation and it's stories from young man who right now is a student of one of Kiev University, but before that he used to go for a school in occupied Donetsk last nine years, because Donetsk occupied from 2014.
Speaker 4:And he tells for us a lot about these paramilitary movements, about these programs. For example, that one time they especially cut off in school all Ukrainian books, especially about world history and history of Ukraine, and after that put for them a book from Russia, a special award, history from Russia and history of Russia. And they said, when you have 16, 17 years old, that you must go to recruitment office but you know it's recruitment office under occupied administration to in future, future, to be in Russian army. So that's why it's how Russian government try to forcibly put these children from occupied territories to Russian army. From my colleagues I know one interesting fact that, by statistics, right now, in temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine, 1,600,000 children from 0 to 18. All these children under this risk, you know, and it's a very dangerous situation right now.
Speaker 2:That's incredible. So we've talked a lot about what the Russians are doing the abduction of these children and the indoctrination. I'm struck by the fact there's infrastructure. This is, I think, the difference between a militant group like the RUF in Sierra Leone, which is sort of a rebel force that's just grabbing kids as they go and there's not sort of a plan around it. But this, I mean, there are kindergarten programs, there are summer camp programs, there's levels like there are levels of school in the indoctrination of these children and that, I think, is a very big difference in how a state-sponsored government can really have a terrifying reach to reach these millions of children in this way. So I just want to offer the audience a little bit of hope and turn and talk a little bit about the Ukrainian-led response and frontline work, specifically leadership in the Ukrainian government and in NGOs around reunification efforts that you're aware of. What are the most promising and effective initiatives that you're seeing on the ground in helping get these children back home?
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4:Especially, we have in general president initiative it's called Bring Back Kids UA.
Speaker 4:Yes, and especially in this website they mentioned about successful facts of come back in Ukraine and children to home from forcible deportation in Russia and another very important project who are helping to come back in children to home is Save Ukraine NGO and I work, still working, especially in Charity Foundation, east SOS source and they're doing a lot not only to evacuate children from temporarily from territories under frontline, you know, because it's very dangerous too, especially when children staying in frontline territories or under frontline not so far from battlefield, it's very dangerous for the children too.
Speaker 4:And especially we lot of work, what is still doing Ukrainian government and Ukrainian NGOs and I think that Ukrainian NGOs especially try to be very active, but especially sometimes it's very hard to share this information and these stories to international society because we have not so many channels how to share these stories and especially, for example, we know that, for a pity, russian propaganda have a very strong influence in different countries and they have a lot of money, a lot of channels. Ukraine, for a pity, don't have this resource, but we try to connect with our international colleagues and share this information for them because it's very important.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and that's part of why we wanted to have you on the show and that's a good kind of segue. You've mentioned some NGOs and initiatives in Ukraine and we'll put some of that information in the show notes so people can go and look at those organizations and find out more about how they might support them. Aside from direct funding support, what do you hope that the global community will do to help sustain and scale this work in a sustainable and respectful way? What's your hope that people who hear this will do?
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 4:I think especially, first of all, it's helping to share this information, because I know in some states, especially in some countries, people have no information about this violation against Ukrainian children Because it's not a very popular topic, it's a very hard topic and it's hard to advocate and communicate these topics.
Speaker 4:So that's why it's helping to share this information. Especially, another step is about to ask international colleagues from their government how we could help in process to come back these children to home, because we know that Russian officials don't want to communicate with Ukrainians to come back these children to home. So that's why maybe some countries could help. In this case, I think especially USA could help, especially when we're talking about some peace deals with Russia. It should be one of very important point immediately returning Ukrainian children to home and especially it's improving of international sanctions against Russian officials, because in our investigations we know about some Russian governors, some Russian high quality officers, you know, who are especially involved in this process, and if after that, no global justice could ask them why they do that, it could be not effective, and so that's why we should have some support from international countries to improving international sanctions against officials who are especially involved in this process.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate that response. I think people don't immediately go to the. I could tell people I could share this story, I could advocate. We even talked last week about. You know, if you feel particularly strongly, write your congressman, write your senator, you know, express your concern about this.
Speaker 2:I think that even here in the United States, many people don't know that this piece about the children specifically.
Speaker 2:I think there is media around the conflict itself, there's Russia and Ukraine, but there's not a lot of conversation about the impact on children.
Speaker 2:And I know one of the things that I've heard Melody say or we've said Melody is our boss and the sound engineer of this podcast, but we've talked a lot about how, in conflicts, in wartime, the people who suffer the most are the children, and the reason they suffer is because they have no voice, they have no power and they need us to advocate for them. And so bringing that story to light, helping people understand the impact on the children, is something that I think all of our listeners can do. All right. So the last question that we ask all of our guests on optimistic voices um, and and this question is particularly poignant for me, after having spent an hour talking with you, v Vlad and talking about honestly what is one of the hardest topics of conversation we've had on the podcast, but I think it makes it almost the most important question, and that is, in the midst of all of this what is it that keeps you optimistic and hopeful about your work on behalf of these children?
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you especially for inviting me and to have a chance to share this information to your audience and to people. What keeps me optimistic is that we are talking about our children. I think it's not abstract information for me because, for example, I am in my own from Dnipro region and Dnipro region is closely for Donetsk region, donetsk region, a big part under occupation, and I know what I'm talking about. It's very important for me.
Speaker 4:Me because I know about these children and I want to come back to these children, to home especially, and I want to have a chance that these children growing up, especially in Ukraine, and will be in future, good our people, our people, our Ukrainian people, but not be a victim of violation from some war criminals. You know, and if I know that I'm still working about these issues, I don't think that it's only work, you know. I think that it's maybe my part of mission because, especially before work, I'm just doing my phd and I thinking about how I could give an election, how I could create in some articles and books, but after that, in general, a lot of this process stop because I was thinking how I could be helpful, especially for Ukrainian children, and this part of work keeps me very optimistic in this side.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, vlad, and thank you so much for your incredible work to research this, for being an advocate and a voice for these issues and for sharing all of this information with us. And, as you said, I hope that those who are listening here will also share what they've learned today and continue to spread the message so that change can happen.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just want to add to that it's been really great to spend some time with you today and last week, and we don't normally, as guests, get to say what gives us hope at the end of the podcast. But I'll say from the bottom of my heart you give me hope in this space. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. So thank you for joining us today on Optimistic Voices. It is a big messy world out there and there is no shortage of need, but we here believe that with radical courage and radical collaboration together we can change the world. So thank you all.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can find us at Helping Children Worldwide on Instagram, linkedin, twitter and Facebook Hashtag Optimistic Voices Podcast.
