Optimistic Voices
Vital voices in the fields of global health, global child welfare reform and family separation, and those intent on conducting ethical missions in low resource communities and developing nations. Join our hosts as they engage in conversations with diverse guests from across the globe, sharing optimistic views, experiences, and suggestions for better and best practices as they discuss these difficult topics.
Optimistic Voices
Surviving Corruption, Betrayal and Violence, A Rebirth for Mayan Midwifery International's Dream for Guatemala
A center for indigenous birthing practices grew out of an expatriate's dream and was realized as a thriving hub for Indigenous midwives in Guatemala. The ground shifted when a model of local ownership and global alliance collided with personal greed. Executive Director Asia Blackwell unpacks the full arc: early wins rooted in trust, warning signs revealed by governance training and a whistleblower policy, and the moment when cultural respect had to face corrupt realities, overcome personal threats, retaliation, forged elections, missing funds, and state-backed intimidation. After a democratic vote unseated entrenched leaders, a wave of retaliation brought lawsuits, threats, violence, and a dramatic raid with arrests of innocents. Trusted allies hadn't founded a nonprofit. They created a private society they owned, a structural flaw they leveraged for personal gain, through corruption. Rather than surrender, the midwives pivoted, formed a new association and reopened within weeks, keeping mobile clinics running with minimal interruption—proof of resilience under pressure.
The most powerful takeaway emerges from within Maya cosmology: leadership is a calling, and midwifery and administration are each their own gift. By separating clinical decision-making from administrative management—while keeping both local—the entire leadership and collaborative team aligned structure with values and protected what matters most: maternal and newborn health, Indigenous knowledge, and community sovereignty. Expect practical insights on equitable partnerships, accountable systems, language access in elections, and how to design governance that stands up to real-world stress. If this story moved you, subscribe, share with a friend who cares about global health and nonprofit governance, and leave a review to help others find the show.
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Welcome to the Optimistic Voices Podcast. I'm your host, Gasmin Vaughn. In 1999, an organization working in Guatemala partnered with a group of Indigenous midwives to create a birth center designed to provide life-saving care to mothers and babies in their community. From the beginning, the vision was to ensure that this center was locally led, that the midwives themselves would not just glide the clinical work, but also the administration and management of the organization. This approach was rooted in trust and in a belief that lasting change comes from within the community. But over time, the story became more complicated. As local leadership grew more autonomous, tensions emerged around transparency, decision making, and accountability, eventually leading to a difficult split between the U.S.-based organization and the Guatemalan Bird Center. In this conversation today, we'll explore what happened, what was learned, and what this experience can teach all of us about how to create partnerships that are equitable, ethical, and sustainable. My guest today is Executive Director Asia Blackwell, who was closely involved throughout this journey. Asia is the executive director of Oh my gosh, I forgot how to pronounce your new organization. Oh my gosh. Can you say it for me one more time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so the Guatemalan side is Naya Shahau. It's still legally registered as Maya Midwifery International in the US, with the Guatemalan registration being Nae Shahau. As we work to sort sort of implement one mission, we both try to implement the use of both names to really recognise our relationship.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. Asia is an avid supporter of midwifery services globally. She holds a Master's of Public Affairs degree with a concentration in nonprofit management from Indiana University's O'Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs, and has over 15 years of experience in nonprofit philanthropic sectors, voicing immense importance of organizational transparency, sustainability, efficiency, relevance, and impact. With bachelors in anthropology and gender studies and training as a direct-inter-midwife, doula, and childbirth educator, Asia has devoted her work to cultural preservation, indigenous women's rights, and reproductive justice and RMNCH development in Guatemala for the last nine years. As executive director, she hopes to increase local, national, and international advocacy for Indigenous mind midwives, traditional knowledge systems, and Indigenous reproductive health sovereignty. She firmly believes that Indigenous midwives are a key resource that must be engaged and supported to successfully address maternal and child health disparities in Guatemala and beyond. Asia lives full-time in Guatemala with her Guatemalan husband and her sweet three young children. Asia, thank you so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for having me, Yasmin. I'm really excited to have this conversation.
SPEAKER_02:We're excited as well. So I want to start by asking you a little bit about your role with the organization, how you came to be involved in this work in Guatemala, just the timeline of how all that happened.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. So really starting my engagement with Guatemala, I originally came to the nation in 2016 as a Peace Corps volunteer, where I originally supported the maternal and child health project within that institution. I was stationed in the Department of Quiche for two years. And, you know, along the way, I, as you mentioned, I have a Guatemalan husband. I met my partner and decided to really stay in Guatemala after kind of my service as a volunteer. I was really passionate about maternal and child health and the role of the Indigenous Comadrona or midwife here in Guatemala. And I really wanted to support that role within Indigenous Maya communities. So kind of after leaving the Peace Corps, I had this dream or aspiration to support or to create. Essentially in the beginning, it was to create a nonprofit organization that supported Indigenous Maya midwives. So when I started pursuing different higher education opportunities, I really kind of self-questioned whether I go back to become, you know, a CNM, a certified nurse midwife, or or how I was going to go about being able to meet kind of this dream. And in the end, I decided, you know, I had that kind of midwifery and maternal child health background. What I really needed was administrative skills. So I decided, as you mentioned, to go after my master's in public affairs with a with a focus on nonprofit management. And I did that online from here in Guatemala. And then, you know, along the way through my master's program, I very also quickly learned that we shouldn't be reinventing the wheel, right? There's a million organizations that already exist, specifically within uh the context of Guatemala. And uh it's a much better mission to support those that that have already been working and help them achieve their goals and a future strategy and ensuring best practice. So that's exactly what I did or or looked to do. I worked for several nonprofits here in Guatemala along the way until I was finally placed on furlough because of the pandemic. And in getting placed on furlough, I started um looking at new opportunities. And that's when this really, this opportunity with Maya Midwifery International presented itself. Um and it just seemed like, you know, all of the stars were aligning. Um, all of my background, all of um my passion, everything that I wanted to work towards all fell in line. Um and I was I was granted or given the opportunity to work as executive director with Maya Midwifery in 2021.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, yeah. I love a story of uh people ending up doing the thing that they love to do. That's so incredible. And I really appreciate the way that you navigated gaining more knowledge. You worked as a Peace Corps volunteer, then we're like, I want to get more knowledge in the actual healthcare aspects. Okay, now I need the administrative aspects, but now I also need to tutor under uh those who are already doing this work and get that local information and local context. So seeking knowledge from a variety of places is is very uh interesting and very powerful. Yeah, absolutely. So you've been with Maya Midwifer International since 2021. For our listeners who may not be familiar with your organization, can you give us a brief overview of your history and your mission uh and especially the emphasis you've had on empowering Indigenous midwives to lead both medically and administratively?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. So Maya Midwifer International actually has a very extensive um history within the country of Guatemala and specifically within the Mum region. So we're located in the Department of Quetzaltenango. Quetzaltenango is majorly divided between the Quiche region and the Mum region, and our project initiated and has continued to operate in the Mum region. So in 1999, one of our original board members, and still an active board member today, was invited by a Guatemalan couple who had sought refuge in the state of Vermont during the civil conflict to return to Guatemala after the civil conflict in 1999. Um, so this board member accompanied them back to the community of Concepción Chiquilichapa and as a home birth midwife herself was introduced to this couple's aunt in Guatemala, who was an indigenous comadrona or Maya midwife. Um, and the the conversation really started there, right? After the civil conflict, this couple themselves and the community really wanted to help support initiatives grounded in local ownership and local empowerment and in assisting their own communities to move forward in terms of aspects of health and well-being. So this board member started the conversation with an original midwife and from there was introduced to a larger group of the midwives working in the community to solve their own or their determined needs. Right. Um so the mission of MMI grew from that, which is to improve maternal child health outcomes by helping to prepare and sustain local midwives in their communities and helping them to have a voice in local and national policies which affect them. So this relationship over the years really began to flourish and grow. Um and uh it was really spawned out of this idea, you know, nonprofit or international work is not new to Guatemala, it's been around for generations. Um, and a lot of these midwives had previously worked with several international groups uh who majorly offered training courses, um, which was designed to help increase midwifery skill and address what we know to be one of the highest maternal and infant mortality rates in the Western hemisphere. Um, but we we started to learn that a lot of these initiatives, a lot of these training sessions, as we see in other places in the world, um, had little um little improvement in outcomes, honestly. Um and the midwives really had no voice themselves in what was being offered through those programs. So this was kind of taken into consideration when developing this collaboration directly with the midwives, um, is that the the original board member and the MMI board really wanted to support the midwives seeking their own solutions. Um and that's why this model was was based on local control. It was based on long-term commitment of North American advisors and volunteers, and really looked to go to go through um constant reevaluation, always checking in with the midwives to make sure that everything was in alignment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, I love the fact that you all were very centered on what was needed. Um it wasn't just a uh, you know, well, what we evaluate from the outside is that you guys need training, you need this, you need that. But uh going to the midwives and saying, what is it that you need? What can we do to support you in the work that you're doing? Um is so wonderful. And I'm I'm also really struck by how um it's very much uh in alignment with like Paul Farmer's philosophy of accompaniment. Um and very similar to how uh helping children worldwide started. Um also after a civil war, it was also a relationship between a US-based person and uh a person in Sierra Leone who uh then were able to travel there and say, what can we do to help um the situation here? So um I think that's really uh wonderful. So I want to talk a little bit more about local ownership. Um I think it's a word that we throw around a lot in the nonprofit social sector, you know, international development space, but it's not always something that is at the forefront of the minds of individual donors and just regular people. So I wonder if you could share a little bit more about why it was so important to center local ownership from the beginning and what values or hopes helped guide that decision.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. Um so from the very beginning of MMI, all the way back to 1999, um, centering local ownership, it wasn't just a strategic choice. It was a real reflection of the core values of those original members of MMI and even our members today and what MMI has grown to be. It was really an attempt at decolonizing international aid and different models that we were seeing throughout the world, really. Um, we recognized and continue to recognize that the communities themselves are the ones that hold the deepest expertise about their needs, about their challenges, and about their own cultural practices. And we acknowledge that sustainable, effective programs can really only emerge when those local leaders are the ones that are generally in charge of decision making and leading those programs. Um it was always our hope that we could foster initiatives that were culturally grounded, led by the midwives themselves as community leaders, that were community driven, um, and that were really resilient, just like the Maya people themselves, beyond external funding or involvement of MMI, of anyone else, really, to be able to ensure sustainability of their own projects. Um, as we know within the nonprofit world, we're really always trying to work ourselves out of a job. And that was exactly the approach had here in Guatemala as well, right? Um, either being able to pass over that leadership or, you know, in a in an ideal world, finally meeting all of our visions and just no longer needing to address maternal and infant mortality. Um so yeah, by by prioritizing local ownership, we really aimed to take a listening role, right? Our original board members came down to Guatemala, they'd hold meetings in person, and they would just sit and listen to the midwives and listen to local community members and try to find ways to help strengthen that local capacity. Um, this was also an attempt to correct historical imbalances of power that we're very familiar with, um, and ensure that the work was supported, you know, in the long term and really focused on the well-being and autonomy of indigenous communities. Um, so ultimately, I think this approach really um like reflects a vision of partnership that's based on collaboration and based on ethics, um, is deeply rooted in respect for the people, for the local people, for indigenous communities who at the end of the day, this work is meant to impact.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I think uh all nonprofits are in a space now where they need to start shifting from talking about doing good. Look at this mother you can help, look at this baby you can help, look at these, you know, midwives you could support to this idea of building something that lasts. Um you're not just gonna give money and it's gonna have an immediate impact, but that you're investing in something that can exist long after you uh stop supporting it. Um, but that doesn't always necessarily mean that that partnership ends too. Um, you can still have those relationships with people around the world. Um we work in in Christian communities, so that's uh sort of a simpler calling on our side, but um building uh partnerships uh that are equitable like this are a super difficult uh challenge, surprisingly. Um there's always a balance between empowerment and accountability. Um so I wonder from MMI's perspective, how did you all approach uh striking that balance?
SPEAKER_01:Right. I believe um in the beginning, perhaps more emphasis was put on empowerment. Um and really this sense of relationships, this sense of trust and friendship is kind of where perhaps more of ideas of accountability came in. Um but I think along the way we've kind of learned um learned from this approach. But I really want to um take the time to kind of explain different contexts um and and how trust comes into play, both in the United States and in Guatemala. Um really in US culture, um trust is often extended very quickly and is based on what a person says really about themselves. Um it's common to take someone at their word and just immediately assume good intent and begin relationships with an automatic high level of default trust, right? And this really comes from our cultural values around individualism more than anything, um direct communication, um, and even the idea that people are responsible for representing themselves honestly, right? We always just make this assumption. Um, but because of this, as Americans, we often see trust as something granted early and withdrawn only if it's broken. But in Guatemala, the context is quite different, and especially in indigenous Maya communities. So trust tends to work almost in an opposite way. It's built slowly, it's not automatically granted. Um, it's provided through observation, through shared experiences, through consistency, and demonstrated respect. So it's not something that's immediately granted, it's something that is earned and worked towards. Um, and there's a lot of historical reasons, of course, for that. There's centuries of exploitation, there's colonization, there's a lot of broken promises from outsiders. Um, there's people who have come and people who have left very quickly, right? Um, so all of this has shaped this cultural norm around trust being earned as opposed to just immediately assumed. Um, so it's very much about this building of a relationship and not just a verbal commitment. And that's exactly why MMI worked since 1999 very slowly and began making very frequent trips to Guatemala to visit the midwives, um, to listen to the community, to provide support and guidance, um, to kind of perhaps paint a possible road that the midwives could go down, but of course never, never enforcing or never coercing anyone to make any sort of decision, um, really ensuring that they could make their own decisions for themselves in order to have their own initiative. And essentially in the end, through these, in Guatemala, we say poco a poco, right? Little by little, little by little, these conversations led to what ended up being a very close relationship. And with that relationship, with that friendship, came that trust. Um, the family that originally invited that original board member back to Guatemala to meet the community was also um involved for many years within the organization and helped, you know, that relationship there also helped garner that trust a little bit more and strengthen those ties really. Um, but really in the beginning, that relationship was still long distance. Right. So all of the US board members um were in the United States and they would make those trips or they wouldn't stay in touch, you know, over the phone or over email at the time back in the 2000s. Um and and were receiving little pieces of, you know, little reports or little updates about what was going on on the ground um through those means. But again, it was very much based on trust, you know, the initial trust from the the from the people from the United States who who visited, just taking the midwives for their word, hearing about their history and their past. Um, that original relationship was formed, and the midwives had told this board member that they that they were involved in other organizations. And unfortunately, within those other organizations, they had received um discrimination or they were subject to discrimination, and for that reason, they left and were hoping to form something for themselves. Um, that was the initial message that the United States folks received, and that's what immediately connected them and made them want to support and form this trust with the midwives. The midwives were able to then form that trust again through building that long-term bo kuapo relationship. Um, all the meanwhile, as these kind of conversations were starting and as we were receiving these little reports, um, the US folks were very much focused on fundraising to ensure that the project continued to evolve. Um, there were no paid employees within MMI until around 2017. So, really, the the vast majority of the history was just volunteer um work based on you know passion for the project and the mission. Um so they were working to fundraise in the United States. Originally, they provided something as simple as birth kits, right? The midwives asked or said that they needed new supplies. They they created birth kits to provide the midwives. Um, but through these relationships and this trust, people from the United States were able to start um digging a little bit more deeply and help the midwives kind of conceptualize the idea of a dream, right? What is it to dream? What what at the end of the day, what are your what are your goals? Um, what are your hopes for yourselves, for the community? And from this led to a conversation about building a birth center. Um so in, let's see, in 2000, um that's when we originally received the report that the midwives were able to form uh an association on the ground in Guatemala. Around 2001 is when the midwives received those original birth kits. Around 2002, US um board members fundraised to provide and buy two plots of land, originally potato and cabbage fields. And in 2003, um, they began that construction of what was to be the big dream, the birth center, their own space. Um it started as this idea of a one-room building, and really what was planned and construction, constructed was a two-floor birth center with community training space, with birth rooms, with consultation rooms, with a medicinal herb garden, with the Maya de Mazcal or the Sweat Lodge, um, with components that really created a space to be able to provide this essential care to the community. Um, and that was opened and inaugurated in 2004. Um and then from there, operations continued slowly but surely, slowly increasing, right? It was still quite a small operation, though there was now a physical space. And again, those those verbal reports were provided based on these aspects of trust.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, yeah, thanks for that um background.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think there's there's oh my gosh, there's so much I want to pull out of that. Um I think there's so much to be learned from building something slow slowly, poco a poco. But um I think there's a lot of people that get involved in the nonprofit space and they see a problem and they immediately want to solve it. And so they just jump right in to trying to do something, which also may be a reason why trust has to be built so quickly, because you can't just jump in and do something if you don't trust the people that you're working with. But taking that time to do it the Mayan way, to build it slowly and let that trust be built on the other side that takes more time, but in the long run uh means that you're able to do something better. And I also really, really love the idea of teaching them to dream, I think is maybe how you put it. You know, not just saying, well, I think a good idea is to do this and and then replying, oh yeah, that sounds great. But no, like what are your goals for the future? What would this look like? What is the the Guatemala that you're trying to build and how can we help come alongside you to do that? And then saying, you know, dream about that and then ask what that could look like. I'm curious if your perspective is that as you were saying, like Americans build trust a little bit more quickly. And as you said that, I was like, no, I don't think that's true, but it is certainly true uh when it comes to working internationally. I've seen, and I wonder if you think that has something to do with the power imbalance that often exists with these international partnerships.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I think it's definitely based on the power dynamics. I think it's definitely based on experienced histories, right? When I think even about your comment about dreaming, right? That was it seemed so simple, but that was an incredibly challenging conversation to have with the midwives, especially at that point in time, right? Guatemala had just undergone a civil conflict, which is now deemed a genocide against the Maya people that lasted for 36 years and didn't end it in 1996, right? So we're talking now about 1999-2000, and that was just a few years after witnessing genocide in their communities, right? So the idea of dreaming of thinking towards the future and not just thinking about the here and now, the day-to-day, the the survival aspect um was absolutely huge. And I think that same experienced history um reflects itself when it comes to trusting. Right. I think in the United States we we are easy to trust, perhaps.
SPEAKER_02:Um because we don't because we've never been burned by a major genocide in 36 years.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Right? We have we don't have these experiences that tell us to be wary. Um and I think I think part of that, I mean, of yeah, all of it's related to power. Of course it is. Why don't we have those histories of of trauma and those histories of genocide and those histories because unfortunately, you know, through colonization, through all of these different aspects, we were the ones uh intervening. Um and unfortunately the US did have a huge um or was a huge part of that civil conflict genocide in Guatemala. Um yeah, I think so at the end of the day, it is it is power.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it sounds like though that everything Maya midwifery was doing, was trying to do it the right way, was prioritizing local leadership, was building this philosophy of accompaniment, was coming alongside, listening, learning, um, before ever doing or or stepping into anything. But um, as we said at the beginning of the podcast, you all have agreed to step away from the organization that you were originally partnered with. Um so at what point did you begin to sense that things weren't functioning as intended? Could you walk us through a little bit of the timeline of what happened as the situation began to change?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, so as I mentioned, for the vast majority of the history of the organization, it was volunteer run until about 2016, 2017, um, Maya Midwifery International started a relationship with one of our major foundations to help us implement um the mobile clinic program in Guatemala. And at that point in time, um, a program manager joined the team as essentially that first paid employee to really help get the program up and running, to ensure kind of the requirements that the foundation was asking for us, a monitoring and evaluation plan, um, et cetera. Um, but again, though this person had trust because they'd always been involved with the organization, it was another person who lived in the United States and was just making occasional trips down to Guatemala. Um, the rest of the relationship was very much maintained over, for example, Zoom, or at the time, I think it was Skype. Um, and that was just meetings between the program manager and the board of midwives on the ground. Now, the success of that mobile clinic program is really what led to this ongoing relationship with this partner organization and a huge increase in funds, which along with it also had a more of a need for financial management. Um, and it became pretty clear pretty quickly that programming and the and the new resources that were being secured really required or needed needed someone with more of a direct background in administration. So a lot of our board members and through a lot of the history of the organization, I like to say it was very much a passion project. It was a lot of people with very big hearts, a lot of midwives, a lot of public health people who wanted to get involved and support this initiative on the ground, but perhaps people who had less of an administrative background and specifically nonprofit administration background. So in 2021, that's when MMI decide decided to hire a Paid executive director with more of that background and was also the first employee based in Guatemala. That was myself. That was me. And I'm here in Guatemala, but I'm still about three and a half hours away from the birth center. But it allowed me to make more frequent trips out. So I was out there, you know, once or twice a month, not once or twice every six months. But it did allow me to have more of a physical presence and of course to form that trust. In Guatemalan and Spanish, we call it confianza. Everyone will talk all of the time about confianza. If the confianza doesn't exist, nothing will happen, right? Nothing will occur. There'll be no project success. So I came on in 2021. Simultaneously, we received another grant from another foundation to help us implement an radio education program in my Mum. And we really, for meeting the requirements of that grant, had to bring in another local person to act kind of as an administrative coordinator for that initiative. That person was my work partner, Milena Rija. And she's located about 30 minutes from the birth center and was able to coordinate in person about twice a week. So heading out to the birth center about twice a week. Through the new organization. So let's see. So kind of when we noticed all of this was happening, right? To get back to the original question, it was really because of that close proximity, right? We finally had two staff members on the ground, though part of Maya Midwifery, not part of the association. But again, going back to that trust, that confianza, having that close proximity, having those more frequent meetings allowed us to very quickly generate that trust that was needed. And that was not just with the board of midwives, but it was with all of the midwives throughout the association. The association in total was at the time, I believe, around 14 midwives. Right. And then there was the larger group of community midwives that brought it up to 70. So through our close proximity and our more frequent trips out, we were able to form that trust. Again, not with just the board members, not with just the original or what we consider to be the founding midwives, but with all of the midwives in between, with the newest midwife who just joined and was studying, with absolutely everyone, those on the board and those not on the board, those who had, you know, now 20 years of experience and those who had months of experience. And also just a visual, you know, through observation, we were able to see more what was actually happening within the birth center itself in terms of management, the group dynamics of the birth center, um, the treatment, uh, the coordination, et cetera. Um, so really that is kind of what allowed us to get the first insight of maybe something was off. Right. And then I was, as the executive director, I was in more collaboration with the Board of Midwives, but having more of an administrative background, I very quickly realized that there were things that a board should have in place that weren't in place or had been yet, you know, had yet to been be fulfilled in terms of board requirements. Um, so at this point in time, we utilized what we were seeing to be able to try to start new initiatives to continue to empower the group and their own autonomy. So we started to have um training modules and bring in experts in the field in organizational management and culture. So we brought in professional lawyers and engineers and social workers and HR people and people with different experiences that could come and provide training, not just for the board of midwives, but for all of the midwives across the birth center, acknowledging that they're all members of an association of midwives and that they should all have this knowledge, especially when it comes to elections, for them to feel empowered enough to try to take on those roles in the future. Um we talked about things like teamwork and association equity and rights of the members of an association and roles and responsibilities of the board, um, democratic elections, how to take meeting minutes for a board meeting, um, how to ensure transparency in terms of those minutes and how you are required to provide those minutes to anyone who asks for them. Um we talked about conflict of interest policies, and perhaps the theme that really opened this Pandora's box, so to speak, was we talked about a whistleblower policy and the protections that come with that. So, really, once we talked about the whistleblower policy, more midwives started to come forward and really talk about what they were experiencing, both in terms of administrative abuses and mistreatment, but also what they were hearing and seeing in terms of financial mismanagement and perhaps embezzlement. So the midwives really started to express how how um how they they personally experienced these things. For example, one midwife came to us and said, you know, that the US board had promised and had specifically said that they sent money down to Guatemala to cover her expenses in um receiving her driver's license. So it was supposed to cover the educational aspect and also the fees associated with taking the exam and printing off the driver's license, et cetera. Um, in the end, the US board believed that that's where that money went. But now I had the midwife sitting in front of me who was supposed to have received that money, saying, I never got the money. Right. And there are more and more cases coming forward like that, um, or saying that they were oftentimes denied their salaries because the treasurer at the time deemed that they hadn't done a good enough job. So that they didn't deserve their salary or a part of their salary. And then that treasurer would say, Well, I was really the one who, you know, who did everything in the end, or you didn't do it well enough. So I had to fix it. So I'm gonna keep that salary for myself. So we were seeing these power dynamics in terms of management of money that we just weren't feeling comfortable about. Then we very slowly started hearing things that were like, is this, is this even possible? This sounds like a telenovela, you know? We heard that money was being siphoned off and and kept under floor tiles and that there was a hole in the floor in the office, and there were these secret compartments in different places where the money was being put. Um, so we were like, oh my gosh, this sounds, this sounds crazy. Um, but really we were just trying to support the midwives throughout this process, again, acknowledging that they were their own autonomous organization and trying to help them come to some solutions and figure out what was actually going on. Um, so the midwives themselves actually, without even informing us from MMI, invited a mediator to one of their group meetings. And that mediate mediator was the legal representative of the Mum area. So one of the Maya authorities. Um, and he was just to help monitor the group discussion um between the midwives themselves. And actually at a certain point, he he let us know that he felt like the meeting would be more productive if they could have it fully in Mum. And he actually asked MMI to leave at that point. And we fully respected the decision. My work partner and I left and we're filled in later, a kind of about what occurred in this group meeting. So, really, there was a lot of discussion amongst the midwives about things they were experiencing. Um, and again, this was kind of the larger group of midwives, what they were experiencing at the hands of three midwives in the organization. Um through this meeting, you know, there was a lot of storytelling and personal experience. And, you know, as sometimes these group sessions are, a lot of tears. Um, in the end, the three midwives did admit to wrongdoing. Um and the rest of the group really kind of advocated for their desire to have an internal audit. Um now, in talking about this audit, in trying to figure out, okay, but where's where's the association's money? Um, the three midwives were able to kind of utilize or maybe call into into play themes of empathy. They very much started crying. One of the midwives got down and was on our hands and knees and begged for the midwives not to do an audit. She said that she would be one of the first ones to go to jail if they were to perform an audit. Um, and that, you know, they could they could figure it out amongst themselves without the audit, and they promised not to do anything or take any more money, and they promised to turn over power and all of these different things. Um, so at the conclusion of the meeting, really the midwives said that they weren't gonna go ahead and they weren't gonna do the audit, um, but they were gonna take measures to ensure kind of a change of leadership. So in March, which was just, you know, a few weeks later, we were already scheduled, um, due to the, you know, the timing every two years, to have a board election for the midwives. Now, through that sense of trust, again, we'd already been informed that all of these ideas of democratic elections that we thought we were helping to support in the past really came with a lot of threat behind it, and they were never actually democratic elections. So, you know, in Spanish, they would say one thing, and mom, which none of the people supporting those movements ever spoke mom. Um, they would say, you know, if you don't vote for me, this is gonna happen. If you don't elect me, you're gonna lose your job, something will happen to your family, you know, all of these different things. So very much verbal threats behind the elections that always ensured that the same people would be elected over and over and over again. So in March, we really made a huge effort to have for the first time ever a fully democratic election. Um, we brought in once again the legal representative of the mom area, and we brought in an additional lawyer to be present and to help facilitate the voting. Um, nominations were made, and then we printed out paper ballots with pictures of the midwives who were being nominated so that you could just circle the face, because we do still have some midwives who are illiterate and we wanted to ensure that they had equal access to voting as well. Um, so we printed out ballots with pictures, and then one by one, without speaking, had the midwives pass between behind kind of a screen. It was realistically like a big chalkboard. But they went behind the chalkboard and they filled in their vote and they deposited it in the box and they returned to their seat one by one. Um and as soon as we received all the votes, we had the legal representative and the lawyer count votes and demonstrate them one by one to the whole group. And for the first time in its history, we had a brand new board of midwives elected in the organization. However, what we didn't realize and what we didn't know was that based on that first conversation that they had with the mediator, the midwives, those three midwives knew they were not going to be re-elected. And they went ahead and forged all of the signatures because in Guatemala you can you can just put thumbprints as opposed to signing. So on all of the legal documentation, they forged all the signatures of all the other midwives, including midwives from the community group, and went ahead and sent in fraudulent paperwork to Rebejhu, which is the main government organization that manages nonprofit organizations, and legally had their election for themselves as legal representative, president, vice president, and treasurer legally validated. So essentially took over power once again of the association. So at that, at that point in time, of course, learning that, the rest of the group of midwives was uh were very, very upset. And at that point in time, they really asked um for more support from MMI, right? Before MMI was just trying to kind of support them in their initiative of trying to manage the situation and trying to, you know, stand back a little bit more. Um, but when this happened, really, the midwives asked for MMI to approach it in the in a different way, as MMI had been the one transferring donations from the United States down to Guatemala. Um, so at that point in time, the president of MMI came down to Guatemala. Um, he's been involved with the organization since that initial date and has always had a very close relationship, specifically with these three midwives. Um, in fact, they would joke and call the, call him their father because he always he was he was the primary person to support and donate to the organization. If there was some project that was needed in those early days and we didn't have grant fundraising, it was it was him who would just essentially write a check and send it down to be able to um fulfill a lot of the needs. Um so he came down just to try to figure out what was going on and have a face-to-face conversation with the midwives. Um in this conversation, he was accompanied by again a lawyer, a different lawyer, um, a legal, he had to have a legal um translator because he's not super familiar or super fluent in Spanish. And we also once again had that legal representative of the mom area there just to be able to further translate into mom when necessary, and to be able to ensure all human rights and indigenous peoples' rights um throughout the meeting. So um he held a conversation, the board president from Maya Midwifery, with the three, again, kind of simple questions. What was happening, what happened to the money, you know, what happened, you know, what's going on with the treatment of midwives that were receiving these comments. And he wants to hear, you know, from their perspective what's going on in terms of the abuse of power we're hearing about. Um, in the end, the midwives broke down and started crying again, um, and essentially said that they just wouldn't be able to pay back the money. So at that point in time, and um, because of, you know, it wasn't just an embezzlement issue, it was a lot of administrative abuses as well. I think the the focus became more on the mistreatment of other midwives and trying to ensure an equitable association. So a negotiation was essentially made that the midwives said that they would rather step down and away from the association than pay back the money. Um so at that point, that's kind of what they decided to do. They gave, you know, gave a bunch of hugs, they gathered their things, and they left. Um, and that's when MMI started to try to really just support the democratically elected board from that previous election that I mentioned. Um and we thought we were going to just be able to, you know, close that chapter there and move forward with the mission still supporting the democratically elected board. But unfortunately, we very quickly realized that we were receiving um a bunch of, or had received a bunch of retaliations against us. Um MMI, and including myself and all of the other midwives, had lawsuits placed against us based on fraudulent tales. Um, and we were also confronted by a lot of threats, both verbally and unfortunately physical action against our safety and security, including screws that were placed in our tires, um, gunshots that were fired in the air, a midwife's calera or like wood shed attached to her house was burned down. Um, a lot of different incidents along the way. They they tightened the brakes of the association's vehicle to try to cause an accident. A lot of things along the way that unfortunately made the situation a lot more, a lot more intense, um, a lot more. I think it was hard to believe. I think it was, you know, the board president returned back to the United States. And I think he, of course, coming from a more US perspective and understanding that we can continue to fundraise, we continue to find the money, and he can continue to make donations himself, he was less concerned about the money. Um, but when it became physical threats and violence, I think everyone became um just much more shocked with the situation. I always return to this idea of like a telenovela, like it, like a weird narco-trafficking, like money in the floorboard, shots fired in the air. It just seems like such a distant, you know, reality, I guess. Something I thought I'd only see in the movies and never be a direct part of. And I think that's in the end what hurt the most for all these people who had been on the board for so long, supporting for so many years, who did it with so much love, based on so much trust, to have all of that for 25 years thrown out the window and end in death attempts. Um, I think that was the hardest part, honestly. Um, so for the last nearly three years now, we've been involved in six legal processes, um, really just to ensure the process. Um, I'm sorry, just to ensure the future of the project. Um, in the end, an audit was performed. It was over three million quatzales, um, not for 25 years, but just for the past seven years that um were unaccounted for. Um, but again, at the end of the day, the the processes that we were moving forward in was not to recover the money. It was to recover the rights of the other midwives against these three, um, to ensure that they could move forward with their association.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Um listeners, Asa has told me uh pieces of this story before, and yet every time I hear it, uh I feel like I have been hit in the face. Um Wow. Uh for reference, I think three million quatsales is roughly like$380,000 over the last seven years. Is that is that or that equivalent to you? Yeah. Wow. So what what started as we're just gonna do some better monitoring and evaluation. And oh, look, we're building this new program. Well, you know, new program means new funding, new funding needs more management because to whom much isn't trusted, much is expected. Um, and and trying to build that administration, that board ownership, that leadership, all of those like nonprofit skills that are are necessary to run and to really run any sort of organization, not even just a nonprofit. Um, and then exposing all of this through uh a whistleblower policy. Wow. Wow. Um I who there's so much to say. Um I I I think one thing that I am very, very struck by is this idea of local ownership and local leadership doesn't mean that the right people are the leaders. So I mean, you you kind of were starting to empower not the the midwifery board, but the rest of the midwives who were a part of this team to engage in these leadership activities. And they just ran with it. I mean, they invited the local representative to the meeting, they made the decision about the audit. Um, they did all of these things to make sure that they did all of these things to make sure that their organization was going to be able to continue and move forward and and and get through these things, and then came and said, okay, we've now reached a point at which we need MMI's help. We need more that what we're trying to do is not working. Um so we need to do this more democratically elected uh uh election to do this. But uh what what I'm also really amazed at is that MMI did not see this as an opportunity to completely step away from local leadership. There are many organizations that would see this level of corruption, would see this and say, okay, we need all the US people to come and manage this because clearly what was being done on the ground was not being done correctly. So we need to do it. But instead, saying, let's support this new board, let's get them democratically elected, let's let's build this correctly and make sure that we have what I like to say is uh the right people on the bus and the right people in the right seats. Um, so still prioritizing local leadership and making sure that it's the right people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And that's really what we tried to do. I again I joke because I think it's so hard. I mean, I believe me that all of this has been incredibly challenging, both uh physically and mentally having a young family. Believe me, no one no one listening to this has any trouble believing that I I think I I I end up cracking jokes because it lightens the mood and helps us, I think, all kind of move through it. Um, but I I do joke that the midwives themselves, I mean, they were the ones to lead their own revolution. And we support the leadership away. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um Wow, no, I I I I I I want to acknowledge this was not just a relationship that was broken. You know, it it's not just trust that was broken and a relationship that was damaged, but I mean, this is sort of like the murder of Raz Putin. It was like shot set on fire, burned, and thrown in a river. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was. And then some.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And so I'm sure there's a lot of you know, grief um with the the midwives that have stayed um to kind of navigate all of this as well. But not just the the grief that I'm sure your board feels, but also the the local staff.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Um and unfortunately, the way it's it's played out, it like I said, and then some it the the the legal processes continued, unfortunately. Um I think when MMI originally got involved, I think it's so hard. I go back to this idea of of context and really ensuring an understanding of context because MMI got involved with an understanding of a US context of, you know, if we move forward in these legal cases, we we will find justice. And I think unfortunately, Guatemala does not have that same context when it comes to the legal justice system. Um, Guatemala is still considered to be in the top um most corrupt nations um in the world, I think in the top 30. Um and we've very quickly, well, maybe not very quickly, because three years later we're starting to realize this. Um unfortunately, all of them the hope we went into legal cases with to be able to ensure justice for the midwives, we have now realized that um that is simply just not going to be able to happen. And or the process for making that happen would require years and years. We've already been in this for three years. So more, you know, 10 years of legal battle to maybe ensure a little bit of justice at the end. Um, so through these legal cases, as I mentioned, um, the midwives kind of fraudulently placed claims against us, against the midwives themselves. Um, and through all of this, we really, unfortunately from the judge learned that this wasn't just a recent happening. This goes all the way back to the original um constitution and formation of the association on the ground. What's what was told um to us that was it was they they told us it was an association. Association was part of the name, which is now illegal in Guatemala, to have essentially a private entity with the name association, simply because it led to scams. Um and unfortunately, the constitution of the Guatemalan Association was not that of an association, it was that of a society, of a private society with a handful of owners contributing to that society. Um, so in the end, no matter how, you know, what angle we tried to approach the cases from, to try to prove that the other midwives were um asociadas or members of the association, the judges would continue to go back to the constitution as the ruling document and say, no, but it's not an association. Um, and like I said, we really tried to approach it from every angle, trying to support the midwives, trying to provide other elections where, you know, there was one election over the 25 years where the same women were not the president. They elected someone who was not even written into that constitution. So we were trying to hang on to that. You know, if they did it once before, that means that they all were members and other people could be elected. Um, but at the end of the day, the judge just kept feeding it back to us that it wasn't an association. They weren't, they weren't members of an association, they had no rights to look after the money, they had no rights to try to continue and to be, you know, any part of the board. Um and I think that's when we finally started to understand and realize that the relationship there, it was impossible to continue. Because even, you know, Maya Midwifery, we have um rules and regulations, requirements in terms of where our funding can go. And now that a judge was definitively saying that it was not a nonprofit, we could no longer contribute to that organization. Um, so you know, slowly but surely, we are trying to figure out what was happening in these cases and of course try to think to the future and figure out how we secure the programs, how we ensure the mission, right? And and let go. And I think it was so hard for a lot of those original board members, and even for the midwives themselves, to learn how to let go of the name and the idea of this association that in the end wasn't, it was a private entity. Um, but what to do with that, you know, you know, to be able to stop fighting for that and realize that it's it wasn't the name that was doing the work. It was the midwives who were doing the work. And how could we move forward to support the midwives without this name? And that's essentially, you know, along the way, that shift that we had to let go of the association and build something new to continue the impact.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I can completely understand the the grief. Well, I I I guess I couldn't possibly understand, but I I am trying to I I feel for the grief that you all must have over that loss. Um, over I mean, the the names that we ascribe to things have meaning and to be able to let go of that and uh the hurt behind that. Um and just the the hard work that you all invested in trying to uh build it back as much as possible, and then having to have that moment where you said, you know, this is no longer working, we have to move on. Um, there has to be a new path forward. We've explored every possible way to do this the way that we have been doing it and to continue. Um, but now it's it's time for for change. Right.
SPEAKER_01:And we, you know, we were still in replaces when that was happening. So we were realizing these things on the side of the administration while still trying to hold on to any glimmer of hope for the midwives and still working through legal cases. You know, we'd have one judge tell us something and we'd move the case up. You know, we'd move the case up on the school system to try to have a different judge look at it and try to present it in a different way. Really trying to advocate for the midwives, right? They were the, these most of these cases were the midwives there sitting, trying to say, no, we are members of this association. We've always been members of this association. Um, you know, so we'd we'd move it up and then the case would, you know, take longer and it would continue to be pending, but we were just kind of in this limbo state. Um, but because of that first ruling from that first judge, the other three midwives were able to then put another legal case of usurpation or illegal encroachment on the board of midwives that was legally elected or democratically elected, I should say. So, kind of the turning point in all of this, right? We are seeing how it's going. My work partner and I are trying to figure out how to secure operations on the ground. We're hearing that it's not a nonprofit. So we realize immediately, okay, it's not a nonprofit. That means in order to keep this work going and have an umbrella organization for the midwives, we have to form a nonprofit. Right. So we started the process of forming a legal nonprofit in Guatemala just as a backup, just as a plan B. If this really goes south, if we really can't recover Accom and prove that it's a nonprofit and change the constitution, at least the midwives won't be left without a support system. Right. So that was formed in October of 2024. Um and then we learn very quickly about this new case of illegal encroachment placed on us and placed on the midwives. Um, of course, we have a team of lawyers. They're working through these processes with us, they're ensuring we get all of the right legal paperwork. The legal process in Guatemala is extreme. Um, it's very different from the United States. So we're learning all of these things along the way. Um and then on April 9th, 2025, uh the birth center becomes surrounded by about 100 or more DYK officers, which Dyke in Guatemala is the department of um, it's essentially the department that looks at the most intense criminal cases like narco trafficking, like gangs, like murder, like drugs, like all of these things. And they surround the birth center in a small indigenous town with over a hundred officers. And then they send the officers to the individual midwives who had been elected to the Democratic Board to their houses to find them. And they arrest them and they put them in handcuffs, and they walk them to their vehicles and they take them to the courts in Sheila. Not only, but they had it arranged so that they were followed by journalists in Guatemala and they had all of this published across national news systems of these innocent midwives being handcuffed and taken in without explanation, without explaining to their families. Of course, when we're in situations like this as well, we have to think about even language accessibility and being able to appropriately explain in a native language what's going on and why they're being taken in. My work partner and I are getting just phone calls of things that are happening, that they forced entry, that they're taking all of the assets, they're like starting to seize property, um, that they're not letting them leave until they turn over all of these things, right? We have our youngest midwife there who's, you know, 17 at the time, trying to be the one to manage this and get in contact with us. We're trying to send our lawyers and figure out what's going on. How can they take them in? Can they legally arrest them and take them right now? Um, trying to manage the situation, of course, we send our lawyers there as quickly as possible to the courts to start this case. Um, and we're not hearing much, of course, because they're now in front of a judge and they're listening to the judge and they're trying to advocate and fight for the midwives. The midwives end up having to stay in the courts for over 24 hours. They have to spend the nights there. And the next morning at nine o'clock, the judge comes back and declares that the midwives are free to go and um there's lack of merit. Um, so they let the midwives go free of charge, but they don't turn assets back over to the elected board. Um, we learn from our lawyers very quickly um that unfortunately uh corruption was at play once again, as is common in Guatemala and as we've seen consistently throughout our legal processes. But essentially every piece of evidence or support that our lawyers had been providing to the prosecutor's office to prove the innocence of the midwives, it had all been removed completely from the case file. So essentially the case file that deemed that these officers could go and seize all assets, turn everything over to the three corrupt midwives, and arrest the rest of the board and take them into the courts was based off of an empty case file that only had information from the three midwives. Um I think we know we know who their lawyer is in the department of Catalanango. He's known for being one of the most corrupt and dirty lawyers actually in the country. Um we know who he is, we know how he operates. Um, and we know, of course, this was a paid favor. Uh, we think he was trying to be, I don't know, slick for lack of a better word, in having the journalists follow. But of course, we also have um a network of journalists and and communication network here in Guatemala. And I think their article claiming false um false uh illegal encroachment of the midwives that was released on six news articles. We very quickly remedied the situation by releasing a press release. Um, and our press release went out on over 50 different news sources across Guatemala, clearing the name of our midwives. Um in the end, their innocence was proved, but we also lost everything. And the judge in that case, after proving their innocence, said that all of the assets needed to be handled in a different case. Um, so we lost the birth center, we lost everything in it, we lost our two vehicles, we lost the two plots of land. Uh, and the midwives themselves lost their personal items that were in their lockers, like down to the personal items. And I mean, just despite everything so much more. But I think the midwives, what really, really affects them are some of those personal items. Imagine a weepy of the traditional blouse. They see now these three midwives sometimes walking down the street wearing their weepily. Um, so yeah, it was it it was it was a rough loss. It was a rough loss. Um, we lost everything. Again, that was on the 9th of April. But because we had been able to strategically think through these scenarios and knew that we needed some sort of plan B, we had Nyesh Howe already legally registered on the ground. And we we had been thinking about how to move everything over. But again, because we'd already been subject to safety and security issues, we decided we did need to at least have a little bit of downtime just to ensure everyone's safety. But from the 9th of April to the month of May, um, that's kind of the downtime we had. Once all of this happened, we we gathered the midwives, we said, you know, all of them thought all hope was lost. They thought their jobs were gone, they thought the birth center was gone, they thought the organization was gone, their role in the community, the impact being made. They were all ready to say, it's done, it's over. And we were able to come forward and say, it's not over yet. If you want to, there's this new association and we can continue operations. And every single one of them decided that they were going to continue. And the resilience, I mean, it just there's so much resilience in general across the Maya population and peoples and the community. But again, a sheer demonstration of resilience in them all saying, we want to continue, we want to keep doing this work, we want to have the new association. Um, how do we do it? You know, we said, okay, we need some downtime to secure, to make sure we're all safe before we do this. Um, but realistically, that downtime was a month. On May 14th, we continued all operations as normal, out of nine and a new birth center. Um, so it was a super quick transition, but that was one of our main goals in the long run. Again, understanding that we're not, it's not the name that we're attached to. It's the impact. It's the impact on the community. It's the women, it's the pregnant mothers, it's the babies, it's the midwives. And we were able to continue moving forward again. Um the doors were closed, you know, the birth center doors were closed for approximately a month. We only missed two of our scheduled mobile clinics. All of the others continued right underneath the new association. Um, and we're able to move forward as Naya Shahau.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Wow, what what a journey. I thought we were done and then we weren't, which I'm sure is how you all uh felt as well. Um, that you guys have uh have have been on in trying to decide what to do, uh, but remaining committed to that mission uh of being able to prioritize the work of Indigenous midwives and serve the the Mayan community around you. Um that's just incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Yeah, it's been it's been long, but I like I said, I think we've been working hard to find the light at the end of the tunnel, and I think I think we've found it, right? I think we've learned a lot of things along the way. Our the system of administration is quite different now, um, though we are still trying to ensure local ownership, but separating kind of the medical aspect from administration. Um and I think that's something we really learned along the way as well. Um again, when we talk about context, I think I think the US board was incredibly well-intentioned. Um, but I think maybe one of our downfalls was reflecting more on Western context as opposed to indigenous Maya context, especially in regards to leadership. Right. So oftentimes in the US context, we we think leadership is administration, right? Being the leader means that you are managing and you are organizing and you are controlling the resources and the people.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:It's about maybe structure and efficiency and authority. It's all these managerial tasks, whereas in the Maya worldview, leadership is more community-rooted. It's about well-being. Um, it really contrasts administrative, um, this Western idea of administrative leadership. Um, in that the midwives, as indigenous Maya midwives, were already leaders. They are leaders because of their role in the community. And I think it was it was very well intentioned. There were only good intentions from the United States to try to put midwives in administrative roles. But it was also the thing that we'd hear in terms of feedback, like a midwife would never say, I quit being a midwife, but they'd say, I don't want to be the treasurer anymore, I don't want to do this administrative thing, I don't want to do, you know, because their calling was not that of administration. Their calling was to be leaders through being midwives. And through this transition, we've talked to, you know, other indigenous indigenous authorities and they've confirmed this notion. Whereas in the Maya Cosmo vision, if you have a don, if you have a calling, such as the midwife, if you don't perform that don, um, you can become sick or something bad can happen to you or your family, or there'll be negative outcomes. And that's what kind of in the end convinces you to pursue your calling. But on the opposite side of that, if you try to pursue a calling that doesn't pertain to you, it's a don or a gift that you don't have, similar things can happen. You can fall sick, it won't be successful, negative things will happen. Um, so we've really been encouraged, you know, because it was always our fear, if we take administration away from the midwives, how is that gonna look externally? You know, even though they're telling us they don't want it, how is that gonna look to outsiders? Because for us, leadership is administration. But when you talk to indigenous authorities, they hear, yeah, but there are other people with administrative don'ts, right? There are other people with the gift, with the calling of administration. And those are the folks who can do it well and ensure success. Not the midwives. The midwives should be permitted and should be valued and recognized as midwives and as leaders because they are midwives. Not this idea that they are not leaders because they're not administrating. And that's really the key difference we made moving forward is the new model values the midwives as leaders, as decision makers for the health and well-being of their community. Right? They're the ones who choose what communities we go to in the mobile clinic and form those relationships with indigenous authorities. They're the ones who decide what our protocols look like and how we deliver babies and what prenatal care looks like, ensuring this balance of ancestral knowledge with biomedical care. Right. But when it comes down to the support mechanisms of administration, now they are local experts taking on those roles, people who have a background and that calling to be able to meet the requirements.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Asia, thank you so much. Um on that hopeful note, uh, I think I'll close out this episode and you all have to join us for part two, where we'll talk a little bit more generally about um accountability, um, what it means to create accountable systems and uh build equitable partnerships cross-culturally. So please stay tuned for our next episode. Thanks for joining us today, Asia.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much, Jasmin.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can find us at Helping Children Worldwide on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. Hashtag optimistic voices podcast.
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