We Women Writers
Inspiring and encouraging women to write, to develop a personal writing practice through exploring the real-life writing stories of other women
We Women Writers
Céline Santini - Write To Be Nourished
In this episode of the We Women Writers Podcast, host Jane Jones speaks with author Céline Santini about her writing journey, the significance of Kintsugi in personal growth, and the importance of daily writing. Céline shares her writing experience as a young child, which was eclipsed by her passion for reading for many years, her life challenges, and how her search for healing led her to embrace the Japanese concept and practice of Kintsugi, and she found that embracing imperfection can lead to empowerment. The conversation emphasizes the value of following one's intuitive impulses as key in the creative process and the nourishing aspect of writing, whether for oneself or others.
Quote:
“Again, when you feel, that would be another message that I would give the world. Whenever you feel an urge, however silly it sounds, do it, you may understand later why.”
Takeaways:
Following your intuitive impulse is essential in the creative process.
Every grief can be turned into gold through writing.
The creative process is often non-linear and unpredictable.
Resources:
Céline Santini’s Website: https://kintsugi-spirit.com/celine-santini/
Céline Santini’s TED Talk – with English sub-titles: https://www.ted.com/talks/celine_santini_de_lignes_de_faille_en_lignes_de_force/transcript
Amazon - Kintsugi Finding Strength in Imperfection: https://www.amazon.com/Kintsugi-Strength-Imperfection-C%C3%A9line-SANTINI/dp/1449497306
Elizabeth Gilbert TED Talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_your_elusive_creative_genius?language=en
Jane Jones (00:01)
Hi there, I'm Jane and this podcast is designed for you. Five minutes of daily writing can change your world. Come with me as we explore the stories of women who transformed their lives through writing. Welcome to the We Women Writers Podcast.
Good morning everyone and welcome to We Women Writers. I'm Jane, your host, and today we have with us Celine Santini. And she is coming to us from Paris this morning, this afternoon for Celine. She is a writer, she's published more than 50 books, that's five zero books, and she's an international speaker. One of the most well-known books that she's written is Kintsugi finding strength in imagination. She has in recent years dedicated her work to ⁓ sharing the insights on the art of Kintsugi, and she does that through international speaking, podcasts, conversations with people, but also on the website, kintsugispirit.com, and it's kintsugi-spirit.com if you're going to look for it, and I'll put that in the show notes.
Welcome, Celine.
Céline Santini (01:25)
I am very happy to be there. Excuse my French.
Jane Jones (01:31)
We're really happy to have you here. I’m inspired by your book. I met you a number of years ago and saw your presentation. So, for we women writers we explore people's writing stories. So, I usually start with the question is so please tell us about your writing story and you can begin where you like and we'll go from there.
Céline Santini (01:54)
Yeah, not my last book, more the story that led to my book, right? Well, it starts when I'm six. I was at school and the teacher, so it was the first year I learned how to write and how to read. So very important year. And the teachers asked us to write a story,
Jane Jones (02:01)
Okay, yes please.
Céline Santini (02:22)
and they selected my story to be published in the class. So obviously that planted a seed. From this moment, whenever someone, grown-up people asked me, what do you want to do when you're a grown-up? I would say, I want to be a writer. So actually, like it took me 30 years, but I accomplished my mission of life, my dream.
Jane Jones (02:55)
You talked earlier about the seeds of this is, and you mentioned now that the seeds of your writing was when you were six as a child and writing a story. You mentioned too that you kind of had taken a long time, like as a seed germinating where you didn't do any writing. Could you tell us about that?
Céline Santini (03:18)
Actually, I already had led a few lives because I changed so many times jobs, and I always created my own businesses and my own reality. So, for instance, I worked in the fragrance industry, then in the design industry, then I was the first wedding planner in France. And then I, and this is when I actually wrote my first book by it because as a wedding planner.
A publishing house contacted me to write a wedding planning book. So, I really had no effort. It really came magically into my life. But it could have stopped there because after I had some very difficulties in my life, some ordeals which made me stop everything. So I...
I got very deep into self-growth and personal development and I read a lot. Suddenly I had this magical opportunity to write a book, so not the one we just mentioned before, a book about education, Montessori education. And it was by chance. And then this is how I put my first foot in the publishing industry.
Well, not the first one, but the actual real one. And from there, I wrote a lot of educational books. And I had another ordeal in life. And this was when I was going through my second divorce. And this is when I came across this art, which is called Kintsugi, which is the Japanese art, of mending a broken object with gold. So maybe after we can explain what it is more into detail. But this was such an epiphany that I asked my publisher if he was interested in me writing a book about how this art could resonate with life. Because for me it was really obvious. And it was very a new subject because a lot of people, not a lot, but some people knew about the art, but nobody mentioned the self-growth aspect of it. So, they loved the idea. And from this idea, the book was a huge success. So far, it's my best-selling book. It was published in 12 languages. And I went all over the world to make conferences about Kintsugi and how it resonates in your life. And this is how we met actually with you and Jen in Las Vegas because I was there doing this Women's Summit conference. Yes, this subject is very personal for me because it talks about healing yourself with gold. Maybe I could explain, do you want to do it later? Yeah, because.
Jane Jones (06:28)
This is, I'm listening and we're gonna have a conversation, and it's your floor right now, you're good.
Céline Santini (06:34)
Okay sure because I need to because not everybody is familiar with kintsugi so let me explain quickly what it is so imagine you have got a bowl or a plate, I show for people who have the video. I show you but for people who are just listening, imagine I’m holding a bowl and imagine that this bowl breaks so you've got shards. So, then you've got three solutions. First solution, you decide to discard it and put it in the trash. Second solution, you decide to glue it. The more, how you say, sorry, some of the words. most discreetly possible, you hope that the break won't be seen. But obviously, you know, that is broken, so it's like a trick. But the third solution, is Kintsugi, which is in my opinion a very out-of-the-box solution, is that you repair it covering the scars with gold. So instead of hiding the scars, you decide that you want to embrace them.
And this is why the book is called Finding Strength in Imperfection and not Imagination. You said imagination, was actually interesting. But it's interesting, it shows your mindset. You are a creative person, so obviously the word imagination is very important for you. But I'm more talking about imperfection. Imperfections, why? Because when you put gold on your scars, it shows that you embrace your own imperfection that you tell to the world how beautiful you are with your scars you don't hide them anymore which obviously is a powerful metaphor for life ⁓ explaining that you have been through a lot of ordeals in your life but like a kintsugi you can decide to grow stronger for having been broken, which sounds like a paradox. There's this famous quote which is, what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. So that's the spirit of Kintsugi. So, when I met Kintsugi, I had this epiphany that Kintsugi was actually talking directly to my own soul. That I actually was already a Kintsugi piece, a masterpiece. I felt like I had been broken before because as I mentioned before, was my second divorce. So, I had been through this before. And when I saw this Kintsugi picture, I told myself, I'm like a Kintsugi piece. can once again put gold on my scars. And I will, I don't know why, I don't know how, but I will be stronger in the end, which I feel now a few years after. So, that's why this subject is very interesting it's empowering people who like this metaphor feels like just watching a kintsugi piece is very empowering and they gain confidence but obviously the best thing is to since you are a creative person I guess a lot of people listening to you are also creative the best way to meet Kintsugi is obviously to try to create your own piece, the piece which will represent your soul. So that's obviously what I do when I organize retreats. I try that people put their own soul and ordeals and shards of their life into their piece, and they glue it back together with gold.
And in the end, their peace represents themselves and their resilience.
Jane Jones (10:40)
Excellent. I really appreciate that explanation. It's very clear to me. It's very well communicated. And it does communicate everything that I know and more about Kintsugi. So, I really appreciate that, the writing of the book, you talk about that you wanted this epiphany that Kintsugi would resonate with life.
It comes at a stage where you realize that you're broken, but you're repairing yourself, you're putting yourself... The resonating, and then you mentioned about self-growth, and I'm going to go back to the analogy of the seed and when you were six years old and you have this little seed and it kind of, when your life happened, you got busy, you did everything. Did you do any writing at all? And we're going to come back to Kintsugi because it's the central point here for sure. Did you do any writing or much writing in the rest of your education what we call the United States high school or college, anything like that
Céline Santini (11:51)
It's a very interesting question, and you will be surprised by my answer because my answer is zero, none, not at all. I did not even write for my pleasure apart from maybe a diary. So that sounds weird, right? What I did though is I read a lot. I read ⁓ like, you know, a sponge which is dry.
I emerged itself in water. I was soaking into reading. It was actually my own, my only leisure hobby. The only thing I enjoyed doing, I didn't enjoy ⁓ playing like with Barbie dolls or things like that. I only enjoyed reading to the point that my mother was a bit... found it quite problematic because she didn't have enough books for me to read because I read like two or three books per day, and she was like, I can't follow the pace. Though she was coming from a family of readers herself, of teachers, I think that plays a role. The background where you are growing up, it's obviously it has a role to play. And one time I remember I was like reading, you know, she was saying, okay, go to sleep. And I would pretend to go to sleep, and then I light my lamp again. And one time she saw that, and I was grounded before reading too much, which is kind of a paradox. one time she had the parent-teacher meeting, she raised her hands and everybody was saying, my child doesn't read enough. And she was raising her hand and she said, I have the opposite problem. My child reads too much. And the other parents were like, well, who is this person? She's like bragging. But it was really a big problem for her.
So, I guess I didn't write any line during all these years, but the fact that I read so much obviously planted a lot of seeds even unconsciously. What happened though is that when I was a wedding planner, had a very big shock in life, very trauma. My mother committed suicide.
So, I could, I stopped working and this is when I dove into self-growth because I needed obviously to go on. And I suddenly felt the, like two years after I felt the urge to transmit, transmit you said, to give back.
Jane Jones (15:03)
To return.
Céline Santini (15:05)
Yeah, to return my knowledge through a blog. and this blog, nobody read this blog, actually. was, nobody found it, but I spent like eight hours a day writing every day an article, like until I wrote 100 articles, and I stopped at 100. And when the publisher who contacted me by chance to see if I wanted to write this book about education. They asked me if I had something to show them that I wrote. So, I had this blog to show them. I showed them, I made them read a few articles I had about education.
And so, it was like a calling card. So, it's funny, I actually wrote my own calling card, my own curriculum. So, they knew I knew how to write and I knew it too. So this is how I could take this job. And from this job went these 50 books plus more than 50 books.
Jane Jones (16:17)
Yeah, it's coming back to the blog that you coming back and reiterating a little bit is that you you need to write. There's something that you need to write. So, you write a you start a blog and it didn't matter if I can summarize it. It was not it was not it didn't matter whether somebody was reading or not. But it was your writing.
Céline Santini (16:45)
That's really interesting because for the first time in my life, while I'm listening to you, I have an image in my head. Just before I expressed that I was like a dried sponge absorbing the reading, like a sponge absorbs water. It's like an impulse. But I had kind of the opposite impulse which is how you said you press the, you say the press, the sponge? Yeah, squeeze it. you squeeze it. I was like, now I have this opposite urge of squeezing it to give back to this water, which is whatever I learned and whatever I understood and my own voice about self-growth. So that's funny. The process is like I suck, suck in. You say suck in?
And then I give it back. I don't know why this metaphor comes into mind, but it's what I feel. an urge, an urge, impulse, yeah, something stronger than me. Because it was funny. I did it like full time and nobody was reading it. And though I was going on, yes, it was like a calling, a calling of life, you know, and now I know why. It's funny because that's actually one of the first times I followed so strongly a calling. And now I realize that's how I work. That's how my mind works. So, whenever I've got a calling, however strange it is, because sometimes this is very, very strange. I have some weird calling sometimes.
But now I go deeply into them and I know that in six months or in two years I will know why. So that's actually how we met because I had this calling to go do some conferences in the US. ⁓ That was ⁓ an urge which I felt and from there obviously a lot of opportunities came to my life. and some of them make sense now.
Like eight years after
Jane Jones (19:11)
8 years. Yeah, it does take time sometimes, the seed to go or the tea to steep so to speak. I'm interested really, I interested in so many things you're saying so we're at the pick and choose and we might have to have you back to pick up a couple of these others. The idea that this is a when this is a calling you talked about was an impulse and you wrote, can you describe or can you help me and the listeners understand what that was like? Can you find some way of describing the experience of writing and maybe address the content that you were writing and how it ended up being helpful when the publisher looked at it?
Céline Santini (20:00)
To answer your question about the process, what I felt is really, I feel like it's downloading my brain. That would be the most significant way to describe it. I have something in mind, a lot of thoughts that are very clear for me but like in bulk. then I...
It's like putting them through, how you say, antonoir tamis.
Jane Jones (20:36)
A funnel.
Céline Santini (20:38)
Funnel, yeah, funnel, exactly. So, and when it goes through this funnel, then the thoughts get organized and they're like filtered into categories and into
Themes, so like the themes were about love about relationships about self-growth in general about growing about education all the themes in my life actually, so when they asked me do you have something to give me to read, the publishing house I had this four out of 100 articles were about education for instance. I just had to send them these four articles but if it was about love I could have sent 12 articles about love etc.
Jane Jones (21:30)
Gotcha, perfect. Okay, so in terms of We Women Writers, the goal or the desire and hope for We Women Writers is to encourage women to write, and to write every day. And I especially appreciate your observation that you know now, you can see in hindsight the value of doing that. But it was an impulse that you did, you followed through.
Did you have this impulse before that you maybe hadn't listened to or was this the real first time that that happened?
Céline Santini (22:07)
That's funny because it was actually the first time, apart from this book I wrote when I was a wedding planner, but it was more like an opportunity. It was not like an urge or a call, a calling. No, no, really this came out, this came from deep, deep inside. And I had this urge to download my mind.
And I appreciate what you say to encourage people to do it, even if they don't know why they feel this urge, and if it's going to be useful. think we have, in the creative process, we have to take away, I don't know, to put away the notion of usefulness. Yes, do creation because it's useful, you do it because you feel it, because you feel like it's important for you. Even if nobody read your writing, actually, I would say it's, it's, of course, a pity, but it's good for you to have done it. And you don't even know, maybe like me in 10 years time, this will have a meaning. I read the autobiography of Stephen, the writer, how he's called, the guy who writes horror. Sorry, King, Stephen King. He says that the Carrie draft was put in the bin and his wife found it in the trash and said what is this it's very good and he said it's a story I didn't mind but I don't think it's good she said yes do write it so you see it could be of course it was the start of his whole career so it's a very you don't even know if something will happen but I would say that even if you write it for you that's already good for instance out of my 50 plus books there's a series of books which I love so much writing. It's called Little Grasshopper. It's self-growth for children. There are 12 books and I loved to write them. It was like my babies and it was downloading my self-growth for children thing. Well, actually nobody read them. It's completely disappointing, obviously.
So obviously I was disappointed because it was after the Kintsugi books. I really thought that it would be a hit and nobody read them. So I said to myself, it doesn't matter because it was important for me to download it to the world because before it was just in my brain. Now it's out there. If only one person read them and give them one sheet, it's already good. But actually I wrote them.
I didn't know that at the moment, but I know now that I wrote them for my children, that they will have my knowledge somewhere on paper. So it's already good. I mean, that's good for me. Obviously, I would prefer one million people to read it in addition, but you know, I try to be a philosopher.
Jane Jones (25:44)
Yeah, is one of the things with the writing is that the program I've worked with some writers in, we write every day, and I go on the journey with them. So, I write mine, specific kinds of prompts, and I write them, and then they write them. And sometimes I'll share what I wrote if it becomes appropriate, but we have a conversation once a week, and they read what they wrote, and we talk about it, and they discover lots of things, and it's really useful. And one of the women said to me, held up this big bunch of paper, we went, I think it was probably about 100 odd days we'd done been doing this. She said she'd now moved into designing clothes. And she said, what do I do with all of this? And I said, well, just keep it. It'll be useful. And I'm thinking she's got a book, got a journey that she went on, maybe she'll use it, maybe she won't, but it's there's always useful, and she can always look at that and go back in and when she wants to. And then there's a gentleman I did it with, and he's working on something, and I didn't say it at the time, but his writing is amazing. And so, I've had occasion to talk to him and say, you know, we could pick that back up again, or you could go back and pick up the stuff that you wrote and have a look at it, right? So, whatever we write, there's journaling, there's journals that people write in, they can go back, and they can look over the years, and it's really, really useful. It's very helpful to the person themselves, but then there's always other people. So like you say, is a little grasshopper, is that that's become a gift or realized you realize that it actually is the gift to your children that you wrote in, and you were putting stuff out there, and that's something especially very special for them.
Céline Santini (27:48)
And again, I would like to say it again, that's beautiful and useful in a way, but if by any chance there's not even this use and that I didn't have children, for instance, and that I wrote and I felt an urge to write like I did with my blog. And even if nobody read my blog and if... I did not have, I had been my calling card for the publisher that would actually had fulfilled me to write. I mean, writing in itself is a creation. It's fulfilling. as there's a word I like, it's in French, it's nourrir. I think it's nourishing in English the same. As long as you feel nourished by what you do.
I think we are in a world when we put too much emphasis on the results, know, something that has to be accomplished, something that has to be produced in the production. I think we have to go back and especially when we are creators and creative people, which is the case, obviously, of writers, we have to not forget that creation in itself is just a pleasure. I had this friend who does embroidery.
She says, I don't know why I want to do it, but it's useless. And I said to her, as long as you feel nourished to do it, it's not useless, you know, that's my message to the world.
Jane Jones (29:26)
It is. And I really appreciate that. That's for women who write, the goal is to write for some period of time, but at least five minutes a day, and nourish yourself. I think that's pretty absolutely beautiful. I'd like what you said, or I'd like to emphasize that when you were writing the book about the wedding planner, that was a very different experience of writing.
Tell us a little bit about the experience of writing that The Wedding Planner book.
Céline Santini (30:01)
Well, it was very good for my ego because I was a wedding planner with a book.
But the experience of writing itself, I could not even tell you because I don't really
remember. It was quite easy for me because, as I said before, I had this education
about as a reader and a good education. So, for me, writing is not really difficult.
And also, I forgot to tell you, that's another seed I planted without knowing it when I was 17. Actually, now I'm 49. So when I was 17, it was not the time of computers. Nobody had at home a personal computer or not almost nobody. But I felt the urge to buy in the thrift shop typewriter.
A very old typewriter, and I bought this method, that's printed method to learn how to type, but it was out of nowhere because I had no example at home of people or around me of people typing. I felt this urge to learn how to type without even understanding why.
So, it took me a few months. And then obviously when I did my studies, I did business studies. So obviously to write reports was useful. But now that I'm a writer, it makes sense. Again, when you feel that would be another message that I would give the world. Whenever you feel an urge, however silly it sounds, do it, you may understand later why. Actually it works for me.
Jane Jones (31:52)
Yeah, I think that I found that in my life, and a lot of the writers and lots of people that I talked to, they'll find the same things. And one of the things they ruminate about, that they sort of roll around their minds all the time, the things that they would wanted to do, but they didn't do it. And that they sort of, instead of doing this search, you know, they allowed or they focused on things that now don't matter. And they realized now if I'd have done that years ago, I’d be in a different spot right now.
Céline Santini (32:33)
I have the opposite ⁓ way of living. I always, always follow my urges. And actually, maybe I'm well guided by my angels, or I don't know why. But it always had a good result. Or maybe it's because I'm an optimistic person and I always try to put gold on my scars.
So I always find meaning afterwards. Maybe that's another way to explain it. But yes, they say that people on their deathbed have regrets, regrets of things they didn't do But I have personally, I don't live this way, which produce a very weird life. I have a very unusual and unscripted life. But I enjoy my freedom, and even if my life looks a bit weird, I think for some people it's also inspiring.
Jane Jones (33:33)
I'd like to go over to something that you had said. Well, first of all, the inspiring, in terms of what I try to do and what is important to we women writers is to inspire people and people will pick up on a piece of information or something that you say and that will inspire and we don't know what will inspire them. But if they're listening, they will find something that resonates with them.
You mentioned about gold that you mend things, you recreate something using gold. Is there any analogies or any examples of what you think would represent as gold in a writer's life?
Or in any woman's life, really.
Céline Santini (34:24)
I'm sorry to go back again to the Kintsugi metaphor because it speaks to my soul. But I would say that every grief is gold. I would say that any, especially for writer, I think a book where there's no action, no grief, no pain, no ordeals is a little bit more boring than a book where, you know, that this myth of the hero, the hero has to go through a lot of ordeals to slay the dragon before he can go into the castle. This is obviously the way a lot of writers have this reference. So, I would say that to answer your question, the gold of a writer would be their own grief, their own pains, their own scars, metaphorically or physically. This is what kintsugi is all about, to put gold on your scars. So yes, turn your pain into gold, yes, through the writing.
Jane Jones (35:33)
Through the writing and the writing itself finds its way to, the writing finds or you find the goal through the writing.
Céline Santini (35:45)
The writing can be the grieving process. It can help. They always say that when you write, it eases your pen. That's the same when you speak with a shrink, for instance. But you can do your own shrinking, self-shrinking with writing. And of course, after maybe that could lead you to write a novel or something, more romance with you, and done metaphorically as your grief into gold.
Jane Jones (36:20)
Sure, so in my mind where it's going is that the writing is the goal. The writing is the thing that one is applying through the process of the grieving, trying to take two broken pieces and putting it together. Because grief is like, never, it's not gonna come back. It's not exactly the same, and that's a grief. But when you write about it, that's the gold that brings the two pieces together to form the uniting.
Céline Santini (36:56)
Yeah, you can imagine that your pen, it's actually a new metaphor for me, but I like it. When I'm listening to you, I imagine a new metaphor would be that when you write, imagine you write with a pen because of course today we all type, but imagine you do it like traditional with the pen. Imagine your ink is gold. The gold. And you write in gold your pen. So with your pen, your pens, you write in gold, it's obviously transmuted in gold, like in alchemic process.
Jane Jones (37:36)
Alchemical process, you, yes, there's lots of different colors of ink that people can use. And yeah.
Céline Santini (37:44)
That would be interesting actually to go deeper into the metaphor and to actually use a gold pen. If you like the Kintsugi metaphor, when I do some of my workshops, my self-growth Kintsugi workshops or my retreats, I have them write their pens in gold, but not a whole piece, not a whole book.
I think it would be interesting to write a long letter or long, write all your pens in gold, yeah.
Jane Jones (38:17)
Yeah, I have gold pens and I have silver pens.
Céline Santini (38:20)
Do you use the ink gold or just the…?
Jane Jones (38:24)
Yeah, I could look it out, it's yeah, it's gold pens and gold ink and gold and silver ink. I have like every color under the rainbow
Céline Santini (38:35)
Okay, so maybe next time you use it, the gold one, you can do Kintsugi with silver too, but the most beautiful, in my opinion, is the gold one. Maybe if you like, since you then you like Kintsugi, the Kintsugi metaphor, I suggest that you write yourself a letter about how you alchemized your own pens into gold, and you write it in gold. Yeah, that could be interesting. And maybe that's a... an exercise your listeners could try if they like this kintsugi metaphor because the people who like the kintsugi metaphor it resonates very deeply into their soul so then after they can try it through the writing.
Jane Jones (39:21)
I never thought about it, but I have used the gold to kind of to write pieces, to write poetry, because I use the computer, but I handwrite all the time. And, and then would go through and then in rewriting it, ⁓ some of the words I just rewrite with the gold ink.
And I'm going to go back and look at those and just see what kind of, I always thought it was the word. OK, that I was. Transforming, altering, clarifying, whatever was a highlight. But I wonder if I looked at the page, just looked at it. As of a work without the words and just saw it where the gold glowed.
Céline Santini (40:14)
That would be actually very interesting. And now that you can link what you actually did without even thinking you were using this gold writing. But now that we talk about kintsugi, maybe next time when you use your gold, do it consciously with the consciousness of kintsugi. Yes.
Jane Jones (40:34)
And waiting to see going to the page with that thought in mind, with that principle, that art in mind, and then watch and see what unfolds. Instead of trying the writing, the goal for women, the daily writing practice is not a structured writing practice. It's not for the purpose of achieving something. It's simply to let the information, the ink come out on the page, and it being gold i think is really just really profound.
Céline Santini (41:10)
It's funny because we are inventing it together. It's like a synergetic process.
Jane Jones (41:20)
It really is. There's so many, as many as there are pathways or ways you can go and levels and degrees. It's just a person's internal bent, their internal drive, their internal urge to go to explore one thing or another and just to try it and see, just see what happens. We don't always know where it'll lead, but as you said earlier, the simple doing of it is nourishing in itself. Yeah, yeah. A kind of, a little like organizing a wedding. It's for a reason.
But there's things that you will do or somebody else will do which will make it particularly memorable for somebody. And maybe it won't, but you do it because it's inspiring or it's an idea for a nice wedding. And it's the same, similar, you just don't always know what's gonna be memorable for somebody, but you do it anyway, and even if it isn't gonna be, you just do it because it's what you thought to do.
Céline Santini (42:42)
And anyway, even if it doesn't lead to somewhere specific, I guess that when you encourage women to write every day, it's also to... Do you say de-rust? Something rusty? De-rusting? Do you say de-rusting?
Jane Jones (42:59)
Another thing that you're used to, you're opening it up, you're cleaning it out, you're clearing things.
Céline Santini (43:06)
Things and taking this good habit to because writer life is often a lonely process and you have to motivate you to go and every day to have you have to have discipline. So, it's a way also to the fact that you encourage people to write every day. I think it's good to get familiar to this discipline.
Jane Jones (43:33)
Absolutely, and I really like your metaphor, you thought of de-rusting something. The idea that there's in one of the prompts that I use is about a rusty gate. Then my mind tries to go because it's not, I'm gonna pick it up because I made a note, but, just that thought can lead to so many down so many roads.
About how it's done and everything. So just one little word, the de-rusting is like, now I've probably got a few hours of exploration to do, which will be fun. And hopefully some of the listeners are going to pick that up too. This idea of de-rusting something in life and it's because it hasn't been used and it's been exposed to the elements. It has a metal, there's a value to it.
And it used to be something that was useful, something that was used. And now it's left. And the idea in my mind is behind a barn, there's all this machinery that used to And it's all the hand machinery, and it's given way to all of the tech stuff. And in my mind, it's like, is the writing, the scripting with your... has been left rusty.
And it's not, then how do you, how do you de-rust your writing experience? And I, yeah, anyway, so, yeah, sorry. Thank you.
Céline Santini (45:11)
Actually, I want to rebound on it. Do you say rebound? Yeah, What I am listening to you, I am telling to myself, my God, actually, I never handwrite. Almost never. Only I handwrite my dreams every day. So that's good. But it's like very quickly. I actually lost this habit of writing, handwriting, and I'm probably not the only one because obviously it's very easy to type. But they say that it's not the same connections in the brain for typewriting and handwriting. And while I'm listening to you, I'm saying to myself, I want to follow her advice, and I should start again to handwrite because that might be a different way of thinking.
Jane Jones (46:04)
It is a different way of thinking and it's also a very different experience. And I'll leave it at that because I don't intrude on people's experience of it, but just to let people know that there's an experience of writing. We see something, we learn something, and as lose if we can, when we continue with it, it's like, okay, then we even learn more, we learn deeper. So, you can use it for lots of different things. In my workaday world, I use it and I scribble. when I'm talking to people and there's problems and blah, and then it looks like a mess. It looks very chaotic. And that's that world. That’s that world, the workaday world that I currently or have been inhabiting for a while. And I look at it and I go, that's chaotic. You just spent three hours, and look what the result is. So, it's like, okay, wait a I'm going to disconnect and I'm going to sit and I'm going to write for a few minutes. And then I look and go, that's better.
And it's like, okay, okay, I got myself back again. And it's is such a powerful tool. And I don't have the, I can't say to anybody exactly what will happen. But I know from my experience with myself and others that something happens. It's very, it’s profound, too. It's a profound experience of handwriting. So, you can learn a lot. yeah. Okay, so where from here do you go in terms of your writing? You mentioned you might going to try to do some handwriting in there, and but where are you thinking you're going to go from here?
Céline Santini (48:06)
Are you talking about writing to clarify your thoughts or writing a book?
Jane Jones (48:13)
You can... either way whichever way your mind picks
Céline Santini (48:17)
Both, I will tell you both. I told you, you just gave me the idea of taking handwriting back into my life. While I'm listening to you, I remember that actually it's good for me to clarify my thoughts to write. And for instance, today I was going in too many directions, too many priorities.
So, and so anyway, I was listening to you right now. I was saying, oh, maybe you should have taken a piece of paper and just organize your thoughts with a paper instead of putting things on your computer. So that's what I pick from what we, from our conversation that I should not discard so much handwriting, and I maybe I could go back in the old fashioned way sometimes instead of just not taking notes on my phone or computer. And I think I'm really not the only one in the world. We are actually, yes, very disconnected from handwriting. And I never thought about that so much. So, thank you, And regarding the other questions, at the moment, I decided to embrace Kintsugi into my life much more. So, I'm more into the organization of my company. So, I'm not into the creative writing process. But I already know that in August, I will have one full month with no children and nobody, just my cat. And cats are very writer-friendly anyway. So, I have this new book about Kintsugi. So, I have three... three ways to go. Maybe I will write the three of them. Either a Kintsugi journal. My book is actually already kind of a journal because you have got some pages where you can scribble into, but I would like to do more like only Kintsugi exercises because my book, I wrote it like eight years ago. But meanwhile, I did a lot of workshops, and especially in prison.
So, I got confronted to reality and I invented a lot of new ways of integrating Kintsugi metaphorically and symbolically in your life. So, I have a lot to write about that. I have also another book inside me, which is, because I think that every writer has books inside them and that they need to someday give birth to them.
So, I have a Kintsugi goddess theme book which would be the empowering power of Kintsugi to gain confidence and to really be bright, be radiant again. And Kintsugi kids too, I think it would be interesting. So, I don't know which one will invite itself. We'll see.
Jane Jones (51:21)
Wait, you have all this lead up time to August and then August will show, whatever needs to show up in August will show up in August.
Céline Santini (51:29)
Exactly. And sometimes I know that the creative process is not linear. Sometimes we feel as humans that we have got a certain order because this idea came first and then the second idea and we feel like it's like a queue and that we will do it in the logical order. But actually the creative process is very funny. It's sometimes when one project takes the lead, it's like it comes out from nowhere and you feel like this one is relevant now. And the other project you had like during 20 years, it's still in your head. ⁓ when I read interviews about people, producers of movies, directors of movies, it's the same that they say that some of the movies they did first, but some of the movies they took 30 years to give birth them.
Jane Jones (52:27)
Yes, yeah, because it's a, they're following the creative impulse.
Céline Santini (52:33)
It’s not always linear.
Jane Jones (52:36)
No, it's almost never linear.
Céline Santini (52:39)
No, actually, you're right. But I think we feel that it should be linear, like, but it's never linear.
Jane Jones (52:47)
Yeah, well, that's the left brain trying to put everything in order, and that for me that's one of the big differences between writing on a computer and writing by hand. This computer is useful. It's very, very helpful and it satisfies for me on a certain level the need to control the need to make sense, right? And organize things in a certain way like the way the different programs run, the way you have to input data and where you have to put it and that kind of stuff, then it's easier to look at a word for lack of a, there's other products out there, but the blank page, the WORD doc is easier to start writing on a WORD doc computer than it is to look at a blank piece of paper and go now what I'm supposed to do. So, it does support that kind of, or satisfy the need for that part of the mind. And when I work on WORD, it's a bit infuriating to people trying to, they don't see, they see the end product. But where I work with WORD is I go, I don't go all over the place. I do it very similar to when I write with my hand because I kind of go here and a piece of information goes, I type that over there and nearly use my page at the same time I'm typing and I got an idea and I, and I have to stay with this idea, but I put a note over here on my page and, then I can go back and forth. And then by the time I reorganize it, and then that's where that part of my brain gets to be used. So yeah, it can be really helpful.
Céline Santini (54:42)
I just want to reflect on this. It's funny because I saw, obviously I typed and I typed very quickly because I've been training for 30 years now. But I realized while I'm listening to you that my favorite part of the book, of the whole writing process, if you ask me, is when I am working on the setting of the summary, do you say summary?
The paths, you know, deciding the plan, the plan of the table.
Jane Jones (55:17)
Table of Contents?
Céline Santini (55:19)
Yeah. And I actually write, use mind maps, mind maps. I always use mind maps, but not a computer one, actually a paper one, like a blank sheet of paper. And I put in the center, the title of the book. And then I try I put in order all my thoughts, like it's the plan of my book. And actually I could not do that with a computer. once it's set very clearly in my mind how it will be organized, then I can put it in Word and then I can type it. But the typing part is not my favorite one because I feel like when I've done all this process, I already have a very clear idea of the book.
And it's already, self-explanatory for me. So, I don't need to write it. It's already in my head written. So, I feel like it's a bit doing it twice to actually write it. It's not going as fast as I would like to.
Jane Jones (56:29)
Yes, I really appreciate that that reflection about what is really the most fun part of writing a book is actually on a page doing something and in your case, it's a setting the table of contents setting the structure of the book and that's where it's coming out on the page.
Céline Santini (56:49)
I think I like it because that's what we discussed before. I like to organize my thoughts because it's like very general and like a cotton candy in my mind. Very clear, but when I need to put it in this funnel, then I put it in the right places and the right order. I think it nourishes my compulsion for order.
Jane Jones (57:12)
That's important. There's two sides. There's no direct space line between both because it comes and goes. It dovetails, goes into your hands like this. So, it's not a linear process. It's not a straight line. It's interacting. It's back and forth. So yeah, I really appreciate that.
Alright, so if you were going to we're going to wrap up a little bit. To begin to wrap up.
so, to reflect back on when you bought that typewriter, did you know that you were, this was something you were going to do that you don't know if it's going to matter, but it's just something you wanted to do, or this might work out later, this might be important later? Was there any?
Céline Santini (57:58)
At that time, I didn't know myself as well as I know now. So I didn't know yet that when I have an urge, it has a meaning later. Now I know, so now I don't discuss it anymore. But at that time, I just followed my urge without even knowing if it would be useful. While I was going through business studies, so in my mind, was not actually I had no, I was zero percent thinking about writing. I was thinking more about an efficiency tool like writing reports, writing for business, not the writing a book part. So that's for sure. So it actually made sense. Yes. To 30, 20 years after.
Jane Jones (58:51)
So, I think what I'm my mind is trying to get to is to share or communicate to the listeners that reiterating again you don't always know why you do something you but the goal is to listen to yourself and to do it because for the moment it is useful it is helpful to do it could be something as simple as I’m going to step out my front door and I'm just going to go for a walk around the block. And it could be something as simple as that, or it could be, you know, I have this idea for, I want to buy something, I want to buy whatever. I want to put a lot of words to what I'm trying to encourage the listeners to feel or to be thinking. But to do something, and I would encourage people to explore that in writing.
Céline Santini (59:53)
Well, actually, we are simply talking about following your intuition. As simple as that. It's like it's not something we invented. Everybody talks about following your intuition, but it's easier to say than do it. So, yes, today it's just a reminder that the more you follow your intuition, the more you polish it, you know?
It's like a muscle, you train, think the intuition. So, yes, even if sometimes it's as silly as you said, going for a walk. If it's going for a walk like that, maybe it won't have any effect in your life. But if it's like, I don't know why, but I really, really feel like going for a walk, whereas I should be working or cooking.
But if you have this urge, maybe that's someone you will need to meet. Maybe that's something you will read. For instance, it's what happened to me for the Kintsugi. When I met Kintsugi, I was, as I said before, going through my second divorce and I felt this urge to go out of my house and take a break. And I went to the train station where there was this bookstore, and I bought this magazine. I don't even know why. was because on the cover it was written, how to have a successful divorce. So that's why I bought this magazine. And my whole life changed thanks to this magazine, because in this magazine, they mention Kintsugi. And that's how the story begins. But if I hadn't followed my intuition, which was go outside now, go to the train station where I never go to buy books. I felt this urge, and I'm glad I did. The time afterwards, as we said before, when we met Jane, because I felt this urge to buy a dress, this Kintsugi dress. And the fashion designer invited me to do a conference in Las Vegas. That's how the story evolves So to answer, to reflect on what you're saying, Jane, I think that it's easier to follow your intuition to do things, to do things, but also in writing. Yes, obviously in writing too. If you don't know why, for instance, I have this book, unfortunately it was not published. It was a children's book. Suddenly, I downloaded it from out of nowhere and I didn't even think about that the day before, but in four hours, one day, I felt the urge to download it from my brain. So it was like I was channeling it. And I could also have told myself, oh, I will do it later. It would have been too late.
Jane Jones (1:02:50)
Yeah, when you take the time when the sun is up is when you when it's there and you if you're trying to do something in the middle of the night when the sun is the inspiration, then it's not there.
Céline Santini (1:03:03)
Yeah, that would be a good advice for your listeners. Sometimes when you can, you catch the genius, catch it whenever it's there. When we prepared this interview, we mentioned the TEDx talk of Elizabeth Gilbert, the woman who wrote Eat Pray Love. And TEDx, would encourage your listeners to have a look because it's very inspiring for the creative process. And she mentions that creation is like a kind of genius who inspires you, and you have to catch it while it's there before it goes. And yes, sometimes you say, I'm gonna, it's like in the middle of the night, I will remember tomorrow. And on the next morning, it's not the same.
Jane Jones (1:03:53)
And it could sometimes it's totally gone. Okay. Well, Celine, thank you very much for your time and your generosity in sharing with our listeners. And I would love to have you back again. There's some things on my little piece of paper here that I want to
Céline Santini (1:03:56)
Yeah, sometimes.
My pleasure.
You're using a mind map too?
Jane Jones (1:04:18)
It is kind of like a mind map where I'll write something and then I'll just go over here and I'll circle and then I'll have like little. Arrows that go up here because I there's not enough room to finish, so I go up here and.
Aboricient thinking?
Céline Santini (1:04:39)
Arboricent, from, in French it's arboricent. I think it's the word in English. Arboricent, from arbre, arbre is tree. So, it's like bunches.
Jane Jones (1:04:51)
They're very similar and that's kind of how I do everything and I noticed that this yeah when I'm writing here it's very nice but and I have a tendency to use like, my how my pages look like when I'm writing and when I'm trying to get something done at work. The work-work said that it looks different but it looks harsher. There's lots of arrows that are coloured in and lots of sharp lines, and because I'm not really happy about it. Trying to make something happen, but let the other person figure it out.
And so, I argue with myself on the page. That's kind of what it's like. So, it's quite an experience. So anyway, well, again, Celine, it be, let me know if you'd like something specific, you'd like to talk about, you'd like to come on again. But I'll certainly get in touch with you and see if you're available because there's some things that will pop in my mind as well.
Céline Santini (1:05:54)
Well, my pleasure. would love to go on with this very interesting discussion. Actually, it inspired me too. So, it's win-win. Maybe we gave some seeds of inspiration to your listeners, but I feel nourished too. So that's good.
Jane Jones (1:06:11)
Thank you, and I do as well, I appreciate you. Alrighty, we'll look forward to another time when we get to chat with you, thank you.
Céline Santini (1:06:19)
Thank you very much. Have a nice day evening.
Jane Jones (1:06:22)
Okay, thanks. Bye-bye. Thank you for joining the We Women Writers podcast today. I appreciate you taking your time to listen in. I do hope that you've been inspired by this conversation. And I'd like to encourage you to pick up your pen today and write for five minutes. I would love to hear from you. Please subscribe and leave a review. Until next time, take good care and have a perfectly lovely day.