Zoya Bokhoor-Mills - Healing Through Writing: A Journey of Transformation

In this episode of the We Women Writers Podcast, host Jane Jones speaks with Zoya Bokhoor-Mills, founder of Healing with Compassion. Zoya shares her journey of healing through writing, discussing how it has helped her process grief and trauma. The conversation explores the importance of authenticity in writing, the transformative power of journaling, and the continuous journey of personal growth. Zoya emphasizes that writing can be a powerful tool for women to express their emotions and heal, encouraging listeners to embrace their writing journey.

Takeaways

• Daily journaling helps release negative thoughts and emotions.
• Authenticity in writing is about being honest with oneself.
• Healing from trauma is possible and can be facilitated through writing.

Quote:

"You don't give up. Never give up."

Resources:

Healing With Compassion Website: https://www.healingwithcompassion.com/

Manifesting Miracles Journal: https://www.amazon.com/Manifesting-Miracles-Journal-Zoya-Bokhoor/dp/B0DV9CHSSP/

Get Your Woman On: https://www.amazon.com/Get-Your-Woman-Kimber-Lim/dp/0981970834/r

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to We Women Writers Podcast
• 0:27 Meet Zoya Bakor-Mills: Healing Through Writing
• 1:25 Zoya's Writing Journey and Its Impact
• 4:54 The Power of Daily Writing and Journaling
• 11:26 Authenticity in Writing: Finding Your Voice
• 13:17 Writing as a Tool for Grief and Healing
• 18:54 Transformation Through Writing: Zoya's Experience
• 23:41 Personal Growth and Overcoming Grief
• 28:23 The Role of Writing in Continuous Healing
• 34:00 The Healing Power of Writing
• 36:20 Journaling Patterns and Personal Insights
• 39:37 Revisiting Daily Writing Practices
• 41:49 Authenticity in Writing and Self-Expression
• 43:19 The Necessity of Support in Grief
• 45:29 The Evolution of Writing and Self-Discovery
• 48:27 The Connection Between Art and Healing
• 54:33 Following Your Heart in Writing
• 58:46 Writing as a Timeless Tool for Connection

Transcript

Jane Jones (00:01)

Hi there, I'm Jane, and this podcast is designed for you. Five minutes of daily writing can change your world. Come with me as we explore the stories of women who transformed their lives through writing. Welcome to the We Women Writers Podcast.

Hello everyone, I'm Jane Jones and welcome to We Women Writers. Today we have with us Zoya Bakor-Mills, and Zoya is the founder of Healing with Compassion. This program focuses on healing grief and trauma through a coaching approach combining her Reiki Master Certification with her training in the From Heartbreak to Happiness Method.

She has authored the manifesting Miracles Daily Journal, and Zoya's life is focused on supporting women in transforming childhood trauma, one person at a time. She guides and supports those suffering deep grief in healing their mind, body and spirit so they can find freedom in peace, joy in their lives. Welcome to We Women Writers, Zoya.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (01:21)

Thank you, Jane. Thank you for having me. I think what you're doing is pretty amazing.

Jane Jones (01:25)

Well, thank you. We appreciate that. And I'm really glad to be having this conversation with you. As we chatted before we started recording here, I wanted to start off with the question: would you please tell us about your writing journey?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (01:42)

Yes, so I feel like I've always wanted to write and I've always I always carry a notebook with me and I have pens everywhere, everywhere I look.. And so, writing for me is like, kind of putting out my expression. And it helps me connect with my inner voice. And it also inspires me. And it's really interesting because as I start writing things will just flow and it becomes like a meditation for me. And I've used it to help clients get clear on what's really going on with them and a lot of times through writing a special way that is just basically allowing the mind stuff to download and go through the arm and your hand on the paper. It releases all the thoughts and stuff that goes on in the mind that drives us nuts and crazy. And so that's one way of writing.

I've also been in workshops that when you focus the right way, when you really clear the mind and get present into your body poems can come out of you that you didn't even know they existed. So that's one way of writing that I love and journaling basically daily journal is very important to me.

It lets me just let go of what's really not there for my highest good. And that's what also work with clients about.  Writing stories also is a fun way of doing it. So, to me, writing brings a lot of freedom. Freedom to be who I am, freedom to connect with my inner soul and also sharing that with people that I hope brings healing to them. And also it's a way of, you know, letting people know about yourself and about what's really out there because our world is craziest I've ever known it to be and now connecting with who we are, I think is a way of healing ourselves and as we heal one person at a time, we can heal the world because we're all connected. I hope that answers your question.

Jane Jones (04:29)

That's perfect. So a really wonderful start because I've got lots of notes here. Wonderful start for our conversation. That's a sentiment that is that is echoed or will be echoed in other parts of other artistic endeavors, but is also an echo of previous artistic endeavors, whether it's music or whether it's pottery or whether it's different kinds of writing and it can even be in sort of academic writing and research writing and things that this idea of finding new ways of being. Okay you talked about carrying the notebook. When did you start, when did you start doing that kind of like carrying something?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (05:21)

I want to say that if it wasn't a notebook, a piece of paper. 

Jane Jones (05:27)

Okay. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (05:28)

Yeah, and recently I’m kind of making it a habit, trying to make it a habit as far as writing thoughts, you know, because as we go through the day, there's little simple intuitions that can come in. So those are, they've been valuable as far as writing them down and just working on them, including them maybe in social media in a blog. And so that's the new project that I'm taking on, and I wanted it to become a habit.

Jane Jones (06:05)

Gotcha. Now when you say habit, is this something that you would do daily? You talked about this journal with the adjourn so it's daily and you mentioned about writing down thoughts and their intuitions tell me about what that encompasses when you say about when you work on them, what does that mean?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (06:24)

Thank you. Yes. So, so for example, you know, I'm driving and all of a sudden something I hear on the radio and I say, this is a good thing to put out there because it can help people and that working on that could become, you know, writing a blog, maybe putting it in the newsletter or depending on what comes in.

And so, it's mostly about how I can get the word out about healing and how I can get the word out about, you know, suffering is really something optional. That saying pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. So really making it as simple as possible for people to get that grief and trauma don't have to be in your life, for the rest of it. Yeah. And it can be healed, and it can be very simply done. Like as far as healing goes, because if I sit there, like I was talking to my sister the other day, she broke her wrist and she's still having trouble with it. I started explaining, okay, so when you fall, that break is not just physical, it can become emotional. And your body remembers that, your body holds onto that, and there is a way to release that because as you let go of that trauma in your body, your body can heal faster. And she basically told me, I don't understand what you're saying.

Jane Jones (08:14)

Sometimes, yeah. But you said earlier that when you write, you use the analogy, you talked about you clear issues, you can clear things, but the writing comes down your arm and through the pen onto the paper. do you think it actually needs to even be intentional if a person has a writing daily writing practice is one of the things that we women writers seeks to do and what my heart seeks to do is to encourage women to write whatever it is. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's not, but we learn, we grow when we write. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (08:55)

Exactly. 

Jane Jones (08:56)

And so sometimes, do you find that sometimes when you write that things are on the page that surprise you? Tell me about that.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (09:07)

Yes very much so. So, the type of writing that I do daily and I ask you know I invite my clients to do is free-flow writing that what that means is you start putting OK. This is what's happening with me. These are my thoughts and then just put everything that comes through your mind like OK, so I have to do laundry today. OK, I have to go shopping.

And then this is what's bothering me. So, whatever comes up here through the mind, you can write it down. And as you write down, you release the junk, I guess I want to call it, what's really not for your highest good, as always what I say. And as you kind of empty the garbage, then you get into the good stuff.

And the emotions and the love that you want to share, and that's when the magic happens, and then things come out that you did. You didn't even know I was there, so it flows. The energy flows through your body, and when you focus on that, then it just the words just come out and a lot of times you know I read my whatever I wrote and I circle. the things that come out as we actually used to call it in the Academy gold writing, gold writing. And those are the gold golden moments that you can take out and either just have it for the day or expand it into something bigger like a blog again.

Jane Jones (10:57)

Sure, yeah, it'll move into what it needs to move into. If it doesn't, then it is what it is. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (11:07)

Right, exactly.

Jane Jones (10:57)

Gotcha, so one of the concepts that women have about writing is that they have to be a writer, and we have a construct of what that looks like. So, what's your experience around your learning to write, and did that... That structure come into your, did it impact your writing in your early days?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (11:33)

But the early days I want to say first of all, I don't consider myself as a writer. A professional writer, so in the early days I was always kind of worried about grammar. Am I writing this sentence correctly? Then what came up was creating flow with my writing, and if I let those two go and just be authentic about the voice that's coming through the writing, then, you know, that could be the foundation. And then if you want to make it a little bit more prettier or making it flow, you know, you can always go over it again and again. But basically to me, writing is letting go. And it's for again releasing the junk and then allowing the good stuff to come through and become becoming expression of who you are.

Jane Jones (12:44)

Okay. When did you start to be aware that you were doing that?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (12:50)

It was actually it was after I read The Artist’s Way and that's when I started learning about. They call it the morning pages, yes, and so that's when I started doing that, and actually, after I lost my son. Writing became my friend. Because I would write, I would journal every night before I went to bed, and just put all my grief on the paper. And then after a while that started to become like poetic type of writing, I wrote a bunch of a number of poems during that time that helped me release the grief, and actually that kind of went into gaining something positive. That like living is possible even through loss of your child? That healing is possible, and that connection to the loved one. Is possible. Because that happened to me, and the more I was able to let go of my grief, the more I was connecting with him. And I was feeling him, and during my meditations, I could actually feel him and talk to him. And so when I was writing the words would just come out like poems. I didn't expect it to be, but that's another thing that came out of, just authentically writing, and just because I was writing for myself. I wasn't writing to show to anyone.

Jane Jones (14:44)

I'd like to explore that a little bit and it's in relationship to the loss, the grief of your son and then the connecting to him is that this that you're writing for yourself first. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (14:57)

Yes. 

Jane Jones (14:58)

Would you help, tell us a little bit about that? Because I'm hoping that the listeners would love to hear people that it might resonate with them and that might be supportive of where they are right now.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (15:10)

Sure, of course. So, you know, I mean, I don't know how professional writers work, but for me, writing and connecting with my emotions, that's where actually flow comes in and being authentic, being honest about how I'm feeling. I mean, my poems, a lot of them start with, you know, I have tears coming down my face. I am deep grief. I can't breathe. And then after that part is out, then it talks about, you know, life is beautiful. And we have so many things to be grateful for. And when you're grateful for your life, then things will go in positive way, and that's just the gist of it. I hope that I covered that it's really just being honest with yourself.

Jane Jones (16:12)

Yeah, I really appreciate that clarity about this word authentic. Yes. So often that word is used and it's a, it's sort of, it's a bit of a bother to me. I have struggled to find out what that word really means because it's used in a way that doesn't, tell me, it doesn't help me understand what it means. Just somebody's claiming off the, but when you said that it's about being honest. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (16:49)

Yes. To me, that's what it means. Authentic is being honest.

Jane Jones (16:53)

And I can under, can, that means something to me because this idea of being honest and sometimes one is honest, what's word I'm looking for? Sometimes people are honest, but not brutally honest. But they're honest where they are. And so, and even if it's brutally honest, when you're in a relationship with somebody, you could work it out.

But when one is showing up honestly or authentically in this case, with themselves on the stage about how they're feeling, which is that's if I hear you correctly, that's what you were doing. It wasn't for anybody else or even for anybody to see. And that was really helpful for you. It was healing for you. helped you. Okay, so could you explore a little bit where you are in relationship to that writing now? Tell us about what, how you feel about that past writing that brought you through to this healing.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (17:58)

Well, I'm very grateful to it. And to be honest with you. I have put it on the back burner. 

Jane Jones (18:08)

OK

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (18:09)

And now that we're talking about it, I feel like I should start doing that, and you know, maybe that a part of it was to heal at the time. But you know, I'm going to see if I, if the calling comes in to start it again.

But that was for me like it was like, okay, so this is where I am, and these are my feelings, these are my thoughts. And if it could help somebody, that's great. But at that time it was like, I'm putting this out there, not that the poem is gonna be out there, but it's like my voice, I was hoping that my voice on the paper could be heard somehow I wasn't sure how at the time, but it was like. I guess I was trying to tell myself that out of that grief can come out something beautiful. There's something that can help people, and I think that was kind of the start of. The kind of start of OK, yes, this is maybe they have something to say that could help people. And after that.

Jane Jones (19:23)

Okay, so now you are living a life that is you've created this program, the Healing With Compassion, and you do sessions, you do coaching with people in helping them. And so in a sense, those poems and all of that writing that came out getting all the noise out and everything, it is helping because -

How would you describe yourself during that writing period and now as a person?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (19:58)

Mm-hmm. Two different people, completely two different people. Back then, I felt broken pretty much, that type of writing helped me heal through that part. And it actually got me to a point that I started, what I didn't share before was I did a lot of personal growth work for years to be able to heal inside. And that was amazing process that I went through, and I'm always grateful to it. And so right now I don't have those deep griefs, but I'm not saying that I'm completely out of it, but comparing myself now to back then, I feel lot more self-confident. I feel that I am doing something that matters in the world. And also that helping people is just the way of life for me right now. That's why it has become my career. And I'm very proud of it and just grateful, grateful, grateful that I can do this because it's always every person that I work with.

I become a part of a miracle that they're going through. Not that I do anything, but I become a vessel for good stuff to come through, I guess.

Jane Jones (21:43)

So, like the writing and I'd like to explore the personal growth. We'll put a pin in that and a little I put in there. Is it through that writing you've grown and now become a support to other people.

Is there a part of you that might be even more - less traffic in your head would help, be assisted, be supported by more intentional writing like you were doing before. Like is there, because you mentioned before that you're totally not out of this yet, you know, while we're all on this side of the dirt, you're not going to be there, right? But that is there, even with all the work you've done, is there still more that you could do privately in your journaling? 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (22:52)

Definitely. Yeah, as because every time I take a step towards growing. I'm so surprised after all the work I've done. There's still grief that comes up. There's still what we call it unresolved. There's still, you know, thoughts about my son. There's still so every step.

I still have to go in. I still have to work with it. I still have to release the emotions that are blocking me. so it's always a work in progress. And doing that type of writing, I think, would be definitely helpful for me. Thank you for bringing that up.

Jane Jones (23:41)

Yeah, and I don't want to get too close because I don't want to be disrespectful. anybody else. Thank you. Now we'll go over to the pin, in the personal growth work that you were doing. What kinds of things did that, what do mean by that? What was? What did you do?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (24:00)

At the time that, you know, after I lost my son, basically I was pretty much done. I was suicidal. I didn't know why I was still here, and he wasn't. And so, I was trying to figure out a way to continue because I was still here.

And so the personal growth came in to show me that a lot of my thoughts, a lot of my learnings, a lot of the things that I felt this world was about was pretty much lies. The lies that I was believing in, the lies that I felt are real, the truth about who I am, because I always considered myself to be shy.

I was always a shy little girl that was supposed to do, be a good girl and listen and so kind of submissive to somebody who's stronger than me. My marriage, the first marriage, I was pretty much giving everything away. And I didn't know who I was. I was just a mother and a wife. And you know but I also work full-time and so that was who I thought I was. But after I realized that you know there is a different world out there. There are things that happened in my childhood that that shaped me as this submissive young or older woman who just was there to take care of my child, my son, and be a wife.

And so, when I let go of all of that, there was a lot of processes that happened that helped me just let go. And I'm still having some of that person inside of me, to be honest with you. She hasn't gone yet completely.

Jane Jones (26:11)

You want her to be there, you want to nurture her, 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (26:14)

Exactly, yes.

Jane Jones (26:16)

And support her, and heal her. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (26:23)

The person I was before, this doing Reiki and energy healing was pretty much a woo-woo thing. I never believed in it before. I never connected with it. I always thought these people are crazy. But when I started growing myself, and receiving coaching and learning about Reiki. I learned about Reiki when my coach did that on me, and I felt amazing. And when he told me I can do it, I was like, crazy, just excited. And when I took my class and my teacher told me you have. At the talent you have what it takes. And that was the beginning of it, and learning about coaching. It was also another thing that happened after I was, my story was posted in that book. Get Your Woman On, that was 13 years ago, I think. And so somebody told me about coaching, so I didn't really know a lot of these things, but they just came my way.

I hope that answers your question.

Jane Jones (27:39)

That was really helpful and I think the writing is part of all of that. How much did the writing contribute to that part? Or did that writing come after that? Or was writing come before the learning reiki and those things?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (27:56)

Writing came before all of that. 

Jane Jones (27:59)

Okay and right now it's something that has just been sort of, it's in a drawer, it's been set aside because you've moved to doing other things. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (28:13)

That's correct, yes.

Jane Jones (28:15)

Okay. And it's something that you would still welcome as maybe going through another layer, other layers.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (28:24)

Yes, definitely. Other layers, you know we, you know we used to say we’re onions. As you peel the layers, and you get closer to the center. We just get pretty much stronger as far as. You know the order goes, and your eyes burn. So, as you get closer to the center, the work actually gets much harder. And you have to go deeper, and that's why I'm grateful for doing what God has sent me. I mean, I hope that doesn't come out kind of, but egoish type of thing, but you know, it, the work is, it is like. Miracles happening in people's lives. And, and you know, you can't really ask for anything else, just to be a witness to people, sorry. People transforming is something that I never thought I could be a part of. And now that I see it, it's happening, and I'm in the middle of it, it's the best blessing that I can even think of. I'm feeling very, very lucky to be in this position. 

Just continuing, even though there are hard times.

Jane Jones (29:55)

I think there's, you know, you listen to different podcasts, and you listen to different writers and different people in different situations, and people are working through things, and you stay engaged and you stay interacting, and it is bumpy. It is, you know, I liken it to being in a wagon. We used to have a little wagon with those little red sides on it when I was little, right?

You know, you get in the wagon and somebody's pulling you and it gets really bumpy and you have to hold on to the sides. Well, the sides of those little red wagons, sometimes they come off, and then you, use, you, sometimes you fall out, and then sometimes you have to grab the wagon itself to hold on, and then the other now, one of the other analogies is being in a toboggan. I grew up in Toronto, Ontario, where there's snow in the winter, and you get on the toboggan, and you're goin’. You're on the road. And if you bump or you, you know, we used to have a creek down the bottom of the hill, like it's a bit of a ways there, was in a ravine. And if you steered the wrong way, you could end up in the creek. If you were right, get across that little bridge you know the little ones like me at the time were not even sure I wanted to get to the bridge you know so I was quite happy when things slowed down but like there's so many analogies that people can pull together from life.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (31:18)

Yes.

Jane Jones (31:19)

And it's amazing to me how or it's pretty gratifying is really the word how writing is an integral part of everybody's experience. And so, I have another question. When you write, talk about the pens and everything. Do you ever write with a computer? Do you ever sit down and do journal with a computer?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (31:45)

Journaling, no. But writing a blog, for example, or post those for social media or things in that nature, because journaling is something that helps you release. That's the way I look at it. And so, you know, if you can't really release by punching on the buttons.

And so no, that doesn't work for me because it's too mechanical or too, what's the word I'm looking for? Yeah, a keyboard cannot allow you to release what needs to be going through your body. Our bodies are the most amazing part of us but we've never been taught to, to be with the body. We're always with our minds, and the mind cannot give you anything that hasn't learned or hasn't recorded from the past. It's all the past. Their mind is about the past or the need for the future or needing to know a lot of my issues come in because I always wanted to know how am I going to go forward? I always wanted to know. I always wanted to be safe, and the mind wants to keep you safe. But your body is what's there to move you forward. If you're not focusing on the body, if you're not healing the body. As I said, somatic training, they tell you body remembers.

And so a lot of suffering I feel that comes in because the body is holding on to so much from childhood from being teenagers from marriages from Trauma that happens amazing like I see people living through amazing trauma when they were like three four years old And they're still holding on to that Can you imagine the life that could be happening is not there because it's all filled up with all this stuff. So, writing actually helps you just get some of that out.

Jane Jones (34:12)

Like a little pressure valve

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (34:15)

Yes.

Jane Jones (34:16)

 just like on a, what do you call those? The pressure cookers, the little thing. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (34:20)

The pressure cooker, yes.

Jane Jones (34:21)

Let's steam out a little bit. And you can't take the top off because the whole thing will go bluey. yeah, yeah, I totally resonate with that. 

And something you said earlier, when you talked about writing, and I asked you about the construct, and you said that when you were as in terms of becoming the idea of the construct of a writer, there was this concern or this awareness you had about worried about grammar, trying to get it right. And then the other is just making sure that the thing flowed properly. And then when you let go of that, then things started to be helpful and you started to write. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (35:05)

Yes, to start it to write.

Jane Jones (35:08)

And so with the computer, a lot of people can just type around like crazy, and others can't. So it can be a very valuable way to put something out. But if I understand you correctly, is that your experience is that the handwriting is by far your, the way that you, or is actually the only way that you journal to heal.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (35:34)

Exactly, yes. Yes, Oh yes. There is no other way to go get around it. And it's fulfilling. It's like you're putting yourself out there, and the voice that keeps going is going to stop when it's heard. And writing actually helps that voice in your head to be heard.

Jane Jones (36:00)

And it's a little bit of letting the pressure off so that it helps to release the thing physically there. When you were journaling, was there a pattern to it? You did say that you wrote a lot at nighttime before you went to bed. Was that the pattern that you needed to do to release the day and release things, and then?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (36:20)

Well, it became a pattern because grief gets hardest at night. Yeah, it's pretty amazing how. Yeah, nighttime is the hardest time for me.

Jane Jones (36:38)

So, this idea that you,it became a pattern. It wasn't a pattern that you set in your head. so, it's not a mechanical creation that now I'm gonna sit down, I'm gonna journal. Now the fact that it's every day and you did what you did like Julia Cameron's book, The Artist's Way, is that is three pages. And I tried that too and I just about gave up because I tried to do it in the morning and it didn't work because that's I wasn't opened up in the morning. couldn't, but, when I found a time where it was like bursting to come out, then I could write a whole pile of pages, right? Yeah. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (37:19)

Exactly.

Jane Jones (37:21)

So I do find huge value in there in the part of her, this thing that says it's three pages that if you wanted to just write it as a habit, then that's not necessarily in the flow of healing. That to set up  some little framework, think that's really, really useful. But when it's coming out, it just comes out.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (37:42)

It just comes out and it's so funny because a lot of people ask me. So how do I write it? Just say, just write Yeah, just put the pen to the paper.

Jane Jones (37:54)

Yeah, when it has to come out, comes out, if you have a pen, and you have a paper or you have a just plain paper, then it will come out. I do have a question. Did you use a journal? What kind of book did you use? What did that look like?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (38:13)

Back then, would, yeah, I had just a small notebook that I would write in.

Jane Jones (38:21)

Like a spiral-bound notebook or something like that? Okay.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (38:24)

Something like that, yeah.

And it's just, yeah, that was, I can't remember exactly when I started that was that like organized. as you know, as I started writing, I said, hmm, maybe I should put it in a book just in case if I want to refer back to it. And that was a good idea because I had all the pages there. Sometimes I put a date on it, sometimes I didn't.

And if I felt that there was a piece of it that I wanted to keep, then I would type it and keep it in my computer. OK. Yes. So, I did that part, too, especially if the poems came and I was like, this looks good. So maybe I should, you know, type it up.

Jane Jones (39:12)

You have a little collection of poems that you wrote then. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (39:16)

Yes. 

Jane Jones (39:17)

Excellent, excellent. Okay, so now moving forward, the possibility without being too structured, how would you, how do you feel that it would now moving forward to pick back up the daily writing practice? What do you feel that, that would be?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (39:37)

Yeah, I feel that is going to open up a lot more for me. So yes, the challenges I've gone through a lot of challenges lately and I feel that's going to be very helpful. Thank you for bringing it up.

Jane Jones (39:54)

And let me know because I'm happy to be an ear, and just sometimes knowing that there's somebody there you don't really need them. Exactly. But feel free to call on me, and I'm happy to be supportive. you. I don't have the talents that you have so it's more of having an ear is the talent.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (40:20)

So, I feel that you have a lot of talents, Jane. It's amazing and I've been very grateful to have met you and,  and your heart really shows through your work. And that's yes, definitely. And I'm going to use the word authentic.

Jane Jones (40:41)

Okay, and I am feeling very honest.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (40:47)

Very authentic person in the and it shows. mean you can tell you know people can see us so much better than we can.

Jane Jones (40:57)

Well, thank you. Yeah, I think there's a difference between authentic and then maybe this is this is my has been my sticking point is that authentic doesn't mean that you're walking in white. That we're not, yeah, and then I think that's kind of what I'm feeling like is that I've interpreted that is maybe there's nothing there's no bumps, you know, there's nothing, you know hidden there's nothing, you know, because that's not so and we all have a mask to some degree.  

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (41:28)

Unfortunately, yes.

Jane Jones (41:29)

Yeah, well, maybe it's part of our learning to need a mask, right? So, when you're writing on your own, going back to your original writing through this trauma, there's no masks between you and the page. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (41:42)

No. 

Jane Jones (41:44)

That's where this mask that slips, and it's you and look at the page, and now you can see what And it's not wise like a wound, you know, it gets cleaned and everything, and you know, like say if somebody has a wound, say, I don't know, their arm or whatever and then they have a sweater on, we don't run around and tell everybody you got a wound underneath your sweater. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (42:17)

Exactly. Yeah, that's true. 

Jane Jones (42:18)

But you know it's there. And if somebody touches it and we're to whack you on the arm, then they find out. But masks can be really important. They also can be if we're hiding from ourselves, and from other people that, and other people, think we have to earn that privilege. Well,  we can earn a privilege with one person. We might not earn it with another because depending on what's going on.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (42:51)

Sure, yes, that's true. And so can I just do a segue here? 

Jane Jones (42:57)

Sure.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (42:59)

OK, so I'm so glad you brought up the like if you have a wound in your arm, and so a way that you know I kind of look at grief, and I learned a lot more about it when I went to Grief Coach Academy is that that wound is not going to heal by itself. That wound needs help. I mean, you can't just sit there and say time heals that wound because maybe you don't have to wait that long. And that was one of the things that I learned is that getting support for grief, getting support to heal trauma is a lot of times is not just a luxury, it's just something that you need because that wound needs to be supported. That wound needs to be covered. That wound needs to heal, and if you don't take care of it, it may never heal, and a lot of people go through life, go through their grief, go through life with trauma and grief, and wonder why life is not working for them. Well, it's because you're carrying a lot of it in your body, and so please the message is please get support. Get the support that works for you. You don't have to live with all of that in your body and your mind, there is another way.

Jane Jones (44:35)

Yeah, and that comes in lots of different ways. And so, for in terms of We Women writers, there is this writing, but there's lots of other things But it's amazing how often writing comes into things. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (44:50)

Yes. 

Jane Jones (44:51)

How often is when I was journaling and I would go back and try to read it, I would characterize it as it looked like a five-year-old trying to pretend they're writing cursive. I couldn't read anything on the page. And then I go back, you know, 15, 20 years later and I look at it, and I can read it perfectly. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (45:13)

Wow, that's amazing.

Jane Jones (45:16)

I went back and opened up all these spiral bound notebooks and I thought I'm going to see all this scribbling because I remember in my mind the scribble, and it's like, no, I can't. These words are quite legible.  

So there's sometimes there's things that we're ready to hear and things we're ready to see and it's a it's process about about life and Writing is the one the in terms of communication There's speaking we learn to do first and then we learn to write We get a crayon and we do pictures and we do and we learn to write our name and then, you know, we're put into this little box, do your little name like this and do it in this order and you know, no, no, no, no, no, just if you want to write your name any way you want on the page kiddo, just, you know, in any way you want to write your letters, how do you write the letter though? That's an interesting way to write that letter. Then the child, when they, when they've expressed themselves and they understand it, then they go, well somebody else wants it that way. So, okay, I'll begin to write it that way, but they've already had the expression of, the experience of doing that. that in writing it's giving, it's taking it, taking a new experience, and looking at it and going, I can do that. And maybe even not being aware that there's this little, this little pressure lever that's opening and closing, you know, much like that you said the synomic, that's not the word. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (46:47)

Somatic.

Jane Jones (46:48)

Somatic.

Jane Jones (46:48)

That you do these, these, and I don't know a whole lot about it, but this idea that it's very small movements. And like in yoga, you hold a pose, and it's just, and when you, it releases a lot and you just, and it keep moving. There's a friend of mine who's a musician of some reputation. And one of the things he said to me during COVID was people have to start moving. They're not moving physically not moving and they have to start moving and so, know, and at the time it was not, because of an injury I had, but you know, if people can move around and go for a walk or just start, there's, I've heard lots of people say, but running in the kitchen on this, you know, then walk sideways down the hallway, just do lots of different things to move in a different way. And then the body will release stuff. And you don't eat, it's not about re-experiencing the trauma, it's about letting, like you said, the...

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (47:57)

Yes, letting the pressure off.

Jane Jones (48:01)

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so another question I have for you is you talked about starting to write after you lost your son, and the grief, and thank you for sharing that. Really appreciate that. Did you have a history of writing or any experiences of writing before that would present some light on your experience of picking up the pen, and writing or seeking to write when you lost your son.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (48:38)

No, no, I would say the only thing that comes up for me is when I was a child growing up, I always sketched things. always like scribbled and scribbled were making, you know, drawing faces as good as I could. And I really used to love to do that. And I think that started the love for drawing and paintings, started back before even writing as a way of self-expression. Because in the school, they did not teach us how to be with yourself. It was all about the outside world and how to be, how to fit into that. And I had the hardest time with that because of my shyness.

And so I think I would, I myself expression was sketch, kind of scribbling and drawing faces, especially, you know, not the whole face, but what do call it? Profile, I guess. So yeah, so that's the only thing I can remember as far as, I never thought of writing as something that could help me. Because it was mostly for school, to doing homework.

Jane Jones (50:00)

Gotcha, so it wasn't an experience as a tool or as an opportunity to grow or to develop or anything. It was just something that you had to do for school.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (50:18)

Yes, exactly. was. Yeah, unfortunately that was the way, but I don't know how it is in schools these days if they do teach people how to journal, and you know how effective that could be, especially for young people these days.

Jane Jones (50:39)

There's a great number of places where cursive writing has been taken out of the schools because 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (50:44)

Oh, geese.

Jane Jones (50:45)

Yeah, but that but having said that I understand that there's a number of areas that are bringing it back because there's a lot of people that are start to everywhere speaking out and saying this is really important that

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (50:59)

I hope so.

Jane Jones (51:00)

Yeah, yup, me too. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned about drawing and art and earlier in our conversation before the we're taping this, you mentioned about your sister had introduced you to an art class as part of your healing. Could you, mind telling us a little bit about that?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (51:15)

Yes.

Sure, right. So, I remember, you know, sitting in my mom's kitchen and she walked in and she gave me a coupon for an art class and I was overjoyed. And so I took that art class, and I continued. And that was, I want to say more than 15 years ago. And I was learning and just doing the art. That I would say that was a part of my healing as well because I was doing something I always wanted to do but never even pursued it because it was not possible in my way of knowing myself and thinking. I learned that I love it, and  I'm still doing it. I'm not taking classes anymore. I'm doing it on my own. Actually, my easel is right there next to me and it's still healing for me. you know, that's another message. If you feel that something is helping you heal, definitely go after it because you deserve it.

Jane Jones (52:33)

Yeah, excellent. And that's also using your hands.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (52:37)

Using your hands. Exactly.

Jane Jones (52:38)

Yep, yep. The connection between the hands and there's lot kinds of studies and books and stuff written about it that this with you want to learn something you learn and it's you want to learn bike riding. And you want to learn, you know, rock climbing or you want to learn knitting and it's a it's an important part of people's lives and there's a section just popped in my mind and I'm going to explore that after our conversation, but the there is this connection and and we can It's really amazing. I really it's all kinds of things people want to do pottery. There was a teacher I had, who is a really amazing, lovely woman and she was a writer and her husband was a potter. And between the two of them, their house was full of pottery things, and you could see him in everything he did, and what they were there, they would give away all kinds of stuff and do things, and his heart was in everything, and her writing, her heart was in everything. So, between the two of them, they were really pretty, just a really lovely couple. nobody is without issues, nobody is without bumps, everybody has, they're in a wagon, and or they're on a toboggan going down a hill. And where do we find ourselves, and what do we think we can be doing?

So you've given a number of pieces of advice to people in terms of finding healing and going and doing what it is you want to do. And if you wanted to, if you had a, or do you have a piece of advice or suggestions for women specifically related to writing, what would that be?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (54:34)

I would say that if you're called to it, definitely follow that calling. In other words, if you feel writing is the way for you to heal, at least give it a try. Don't allow your mind to say no. You know, lot of times we want to do some something, or at least this was the... story about myself that like I always wanted to learn how to paint and you know draw and stuff like that. But my mind was saying no because my mind was like it's impossible. But when I unfortunately had to go through the losses then I started not listening to the mind as much as I used to it that it did not become the way I live my life. So, I started to learn that anything is possible. If you are drawn to something and if you feel that you want to climb the mountain or you've got to listen to your heart first and go live with your heart as much as possible. I know the mind is always there and the mind really literally we live in the mind. But learning how to listen to your heart and giving yourself compassion and space to really just live what as far as what your soul is asking you to do. It was a lot of times that. I say OK, well, you know financially having your own business is not an easy thing to do, especially if you've never done it before. And being an entrepreneur is not easy. And a lot of times I say, okay, well, maybe I should go get a job, but my soul doesn't let me do that. I have to listen to the inner soul that I have and I have to follow that no matter what. And that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that I have to know who I am, and I know who I am through the work that comes through me. And I think I feel that that could be for all of us because we're all here for a reason. I really believe that, that we're here to do something, to be someone that could help others. We're not here to live for ourselves.

We're here because we're all connected. And I feel strongly about that, especially these days, that there's so much negativity out there. What if we can change that? What if we can put more love out there, especially through writing? Writing right now is the most amazing tool that we have because communication is Facebook or Instagram is instant that comes and goes comes and goes. But when you write something and you put it out there, people can always go back to it. And people can learn from it and they can create. It's like it can have a ripple effect of throwing a little stone in the water and seeing the ripple just go wider and wider and. It doesn't hurt. 

Jane Jones (58:25)

No, no,

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (58:27)

Give it a try. Just give it a try, especially for us women. That there's so motion and so many emotions can come through us and without writing, you know, how can you express that?

How can you heal that, you know?

Jane Jones (58:46)

So writing is one of the primary tools.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (58:49)

Primary tools. I mean when you were talking about writing before I was imagining writing in the in like our ancestors or cavemen. Writing they draw they drew things inside the caves, and that was for them to. That was a way of writing.

Jane Jones (59:15)

It was a way of communicating for sure. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (59:17)

Communicating

Jane Jones (59:18)

Language developed as a result of all of that.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (59:22)

Right, exactly. So, yeah, it's a gift, I feel that it's a gift for us.

Jane Jones (59:29)

Yeah, so we have a gift, and it's relatively easy to find a pen. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (59:35)

Exactly. 

Jane Jones (59:37)

It can be, it's the mind is the challenge, isn't it?

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (59:42)

Yes, of course. And that's the way it is. But we’re here to experience challenges and learn from them. And I feel like that's what life is about.

Jane Jones (59:57)

Yeah, so we better get we better get on. Otherwise, it's, you know, being lethargic, I heard somebody say, being lethargic is not useful and being overly fearful is not helpful. They're the two opposite bookends that you need to kind of push off the shelf 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (1:00:15)

Yes. 

Jane Jones (1:00:16)

And start living and seeing what you can manage to find.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (1:00:20)

Exactly. And you know, have grace and compassion for yourself.

Jane Jones (1:00:25)

That's important. Thank you. I appreciate it. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (1:00:27)

Yes, very much so. Thank you.

Jane Jones (1:00:29)

All right. Thank you, Zoya, for coming up. We'll wrap up now. And I really appreciate your time and your generosity. And while there's a part of me that wants to say I'm sorry for the grief, I am glad that you've gone through it and that you can be a support and a light and a help to other people. 

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (1:00:27)

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I believe that too. You know, it's sometimes life pushes you through really hard stuff to get you to where you really need to be. And even though I would have never chosen to go through the grief that I have, but they really helped me see who I am and. And that's another thing. You don't give up. Never give up because if you do, you don't know what's on the other side of it. After the darkness, you do see the light.

Jane Jones (1:01:30)

That's a wonderful picture. Thank you, Zoya.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (1:01:32)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for allowing me to express so on it. Well, authentically, no.

Jane Jones (1:01:42)

That's good. We like that word now. know, really appreciate it. With your journaling, maybe another time we have you back and you can tell us all about it.

Zoya Bokhoor-Mills (1:01:45)

Thank you. Iwould love that. Thank you so much. Yeah, that would be really great.

Jane Jones (1:01:59)

Excellent. Well, thank you very much. Thank you, everybody. And we'll see you again on the next We Women Writers podcast. Thank you. 

Thank you for joining the We Women Writers podcast today. I appreciate you taking your time to listen in. I do hope that you've been inspired by this conversation, and I'd like to encourage you to pick up your pen today and write for five minutes. I would love to hear from you.

Please subscribe and leave a review. Until next time, take good care and have a perfectly lovely day.