Maggie Frank - Navigating Life's Burdens Through Words

In this episode of We Women Writers, Jane speaks with writer and storyteller Maggie Frank about her journey in writing and the healing power it holds. They explore the importance of writing as a tool for personal growth, the process of navigating burdens through writing, and the balance between joy and pain in creative expression. Maggie emphasizes the significance of permission and agency in the writing process, encouraging listeners to embrace their unique journeys and find their voices. The conversation highlights the duality of writing and art as companions in self-discovery and emotional processing.

Takeaways

• Writing serves as a bridge from chaos to clarity.
• Art and writing can coexist as tools for expression and processing.
• Permission to write comes from within and is essential for creative freedom.

Quote:

"It's okay to look. It's okay to look and ask. Curiosity is okay. And in fact, it's supportive. So go for it."

Resources:

Julia Cameron – The Artist’s Way: https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary/dp/0143129252

Anne Lamott - Bird by Bird: https://www.amazon.com/Bird-Some-Instructions-Writing-Life/dp/0385480016

Natalie Goldberg – Writing Down The Bones: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Down-Bones-Freeing-Writer/dp/1590302613

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Maggie Frank and Her Journey
• 1:36 The Evolution of Writing and Personal Growth
• 5:59 Processing Emotions Through Writing
• 11:42 Navigating Overburdened and Lightly Burdened States
• 16:45 The Role of Writing in Finding Balance
• 22:25 Completion and the Return to Self
• 27:32 Steering into the Skid: Embracing the Process
• 33:43 Navigating Life's Turns: The Importance of Readiness
• 36:04 The Concept of Permission in Writing
• 39:25 Steering Away from Force: Embracing Choice in Writing
• 42:00 The Journey of Self-Discovery Through Writing
• 47:09 Reclaiming Agency: The Power of Personal Narrative
• 51:29 Writing as a Declaration of Independence
• 56:34 Art vs. Writing: Different Tools for Expression
• 1:00:24 Finding Your Voice: Overcoming Barriers to Writing
• 1:07:05 Embracing Imperfection: The Learning Process in Writing
• 1:09:27 WWW Podcast Outro

Transcript

Jane Jones (00:30)

Hello and welcome to We Women Writers. I'm Jane Jones, and I'm your host. And today we have with us Maggie Frank. Maggie is a writer, storyteller, and student of healing. She has a background in liberal arts and a growing love for the roots of language. Maggie's curiosity and care are reflected in her work. Her writing explores personal growth, trauma recovery, and spiritual reflection.

She's the author of a fiction novel and is currently writing her memoir in journal form. Maggie hopes to connect with women through shared experiences and encourage healing and growth. Welcome, Maggie, to We Women Writers.

Maggie Frank (01:15)

Thank you so much for having me.

Jane Jones (01:17)

Thank you, I appreciate you being here. This segue is often a bump for me because I'm not used to it yet because they're kind of new, but would you please, would you tell us about your writing journey?

Maggie Frank (01:36)

I would love to. Thank you for this amazing podcast and this opportunity to share the writing process that women go through as we grow, you know, from childhood through adolescence through to and through adulthood, and that joined process of becoming a writer. This is such a neat forum. So, thank you for providing that.

Jane Jones (01:58)

You're welcome, my pleasure.

Maggie Frank (02:00)

I think I kind of just described it, actually, my writing, my journey as a writer. Before coming in here to meet with you, I was looking at my bookshelves and thinking like, what were the foundational things? What did I study and learn? And was anything kind of, did anything guide me? And I found Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird. I found Natalie Goldberg's Writing Down the Bones. I found the artist's way, Julia Cameron.

And I found, you know, I just found all these supportive texts and I remembered those little places of the me that was kind of twinged in that excited way of I remember that I remember that book. I remember that process of unfolding what that author had put down about what it is to be a writer. So, I got to go down memory lane this morning and today in terms of and getting ready to meet you. Personally, I have been someone who is in touch with my, I guess we'd say creative side right from the beginning. That was the side, was creativity. So, art and writing have been my imaginary friends from the beginning. It was just the way that I interpreted the world and processed the world and then expressed myself in communication with the world.

So, in some kind of way, I needed to have a tool in my hand, like a pencil, to communicate, to work out what was in. So that means journals as a young child, and it means journals as an adolescent. And as I think about that, man, I hope I never come across those journals that I wrote as an adolescent. I'm not sure it was great material at that time, but no, no, I'm just kidding. That's the good stuff right there. That's actually kind of my point in wanting to show people the beauty of writing is that that is the stuff that does need to come out. Doesn't mean we want to necessarily read through those journals all the time, but that is the good stuff right there, all that questionable writing. So, it's been a process for me. Writing has been a point of process for me. And I have been very fortunate to be supported by my family in expressing and exploring through those tools that I've had in my hand. And I've been extremely fortunate to attend a couple of public schools that just really focused on written process. My high school, to get very specific about it, didn't give grades and instead we evaluated our progress from the start of the year to the end of the year and what really hit home for us and what was confusing. So, we wrote evaluations and the opportunity and the directive to reflect, I think, is so valuable. You know, that question, what was this like for you? What happened inside of you when this was happening outside of you? It's an invaluable lesson to teach young people, I think, to teach anybody.

Because we go through life sometimes feeling overwhelmed and overburdened and lightly burdened and to not have a means to process and to reflect what was that like for me? What was going on inside of me when that was going on outside of me? That creates an echo chamber of all kinds of maybe harmful things, stressful things inside of ourselves. So, my family was supportive of kind of who I was and my scholastic experiences were supportive of who I was. So, in my describing it like this invisible imaginary friend, that's what it's felt like to me. Writing has felt like a buddy. And if I needed writing, I'm turning over my shoulder. But if I needed writing, writing was there. And if I needed art, art was there. If I needed this was a friend that was just always there. And sometimes I didn't need writing. Sometimes I needed, I don't know, life experiences, travel, crummy relationships. Sometimes I just needed to get into the grit of it. And then later, when I needed my friend, I could come back to my friend. And now, as an adult and as a parent and as a writer and an author, all of that is fodder.

All of that is material, all of that is enriching compost so that when the words come out, I have this experience of having been guided in writing and the use of semicolons and dashes and n dashes and ellipses and all of that. I have that kind of support. And I also just have the adolescent journals and the bad relationships and the gritty, yucky, so-called bad choices that give me the material.

Jane Jones (07:01)

I have quite a lot of notes here. 

Maggie Frank (07:05)

That was a long answer.

Jane Jones (07:07)

That was a really, it was given us lots to jumping off, lots of jumping off places. So, we're gonna start in one place and then move along. You used a phrase, and I didn't get the other part. You said overburdened and then another burden.

Maggie Frank (07:27)

Maybe lightly burdened.

Jane Jones (07:29)

Lightly burdened, okay, because I've got sidetracked writing something else. So I'd like to pick up those two phrases in relationship to this writing where you talk about being able to process and reflect how you feel inside with what's happening outside, in terms of when we'll pick up maybe lightly burdened first. So could you share with us how you would, what process you would use to when you felt lightly burdened about something that you needed to process that was happening outside of you

Maggie Frank (08:12)

In terms of how would I process that with writing? 

Jane Jones (08:15)

Yes.

Maggie Frank (08:16)

Okay. I want to answer that and then as soon as I start thinking about it, then the contrast of overburdened also comes into my mind. So, I'm going to try and stick with the actual question and give you an actual answer, and then.

Jane Jones (08:32)

You can answer it any way you like.

Maggie Frank (08:35)

Only with overburdened at the same time.

Jane Jones (08:38)

Absolutley, I'm not going to hem you in any way 

Maggie Frank (08:42)

Okay, all right. So as I as I feel through that, it does feel like the contrast kind of makes itself more readily available. The process of writing this memoir that I'm hopefully wrapping up soon, is, was a process of overburdened. And it was a process of it needs to come out. I don't know how it's going to come out if I don't give it an avenue, like water building up. If I don't cut a little slice in the earth, it's going to overwhelm and flood everywhere. So writing was the slice of the earth. And I woke up at four in the morning with my sense of just more now, do this, express, get it down, document. was nearly involuntary. And that can be from a sense of, in my case, it was stressful but positive, I needed to express what I was remembering and reliving. I needed to get it down. And it can also be a sense, you know, when we've said yes, too many times, and then we're juggling, we are so overburdened, and we're carrying everything that we can't carry. It can be from that place of just to get it out. It might not necessarily be so-called positive. It can be from that stressful, it's too much, I'm breaking down state.

I feel like they're so twin. You know, it can be this positive, but it can also be if you had to identify it, it can be negative. So that's overburdened for me. And then lightly burdened is like, maybe there's potential for, maybe we've said yes, too many times. Maybe we've said yes not too many times. We've said yes, then we're wondering how we got to the situation. The world is going on around us, and where something's happening inside of us. And we're thinking, I said yes to this? What am I gonna do with this?

This wasn't the yes I thought I was giving. I said, yes, and now here I am in this uncertain environment, and I don't know what to do here. I don't know what to do now. I don't know who I am here now. So it's not a tsunami. It's not a waterfall. It's not overwhelmed, but it is maybe disorientation or maybe it's wonderful, maybe lightly burdened is just like I love my life. I love all of the parts of it. I'm trying to stay back on the water concept. I'm trying to stay on the wave. How do I balance myself and orient myself to stay on the wave? So that feels like lightly burdened to me and writing can, that imaginary friend can be there to help us assemble the pieces so that they start, that the picture stays together.

Jane Jones (11:33)

Do you think it's a part of the process is to move from overburdened to lightly burdened? Is that possible?

Maggie Frank (11:42)

It happened for me and it has happened for me. That's the writing has been there for me to to help guide me from that place that this is too much. I can't do this. I don't know what's going on. I can't find up. I've fallen into the water, and I can't find the air again. And writing has been that guide to Gosh, it's not like it maybe guide is the wrong word because it doesn't tell you, writing doesn't tell you, you tell you, I tell me. Yeah. unblock in that way in that awkward adolescent way of just getting it out. But in that, I don't think these thoughts and feelings and emotions are meant to live inside of us. And so, the important thing is to get them out, to set them free so that our life energy can continue to move through us.

So, if that, I'm not, gosh, how do I say it? I don't know what's right for anybody else. And so, moving from overburdened to lightly burdened, that sounds, that sounds like it's the right thing, doesn't it? Let's move from overburdened to lightly burdened. But I also feel like I don't know when someone considers too much to be too much.

Maybe they're getting so much grit and information and compost development and bad relationships. Maybe that's what they need for a time. I want to give them the space and the freedom to whoever they are to be gathering information and be in that turbulent state kind of as long as their soul needs them to be there. So maybe my concern is just I don't want to tell people when that's supposed to happen.

Jane Jones (13:37)

Yes, and because it's a hugely personal thing and I really appreciate that because for the listeners it's not about telling you this is what you do and this is where your goal is. It's a function of the beginning or is it, I should say, to you a process of writing becoming a friend, a buddy, a tool that you use that, or that can be used to process something when there's some kind of desire to do that, whether it's joyful and you're writing a nice letter to somebody or you’re, there's some angst or there's some frustration, whatever the emotion is, if there's a desire to get it out, writing is a really good way to do that friend because you're actually talking to yourself. You're your own best friend.

Maggie Frank (14:38)

Exactly.

Jane Jones (14:39)

All right. And so when that need comes is different, and that's not what you're trying to say is when that need is, not trying to describe it, but that that's a process that a person, a woman can engage in, men too, but women in this case, for the purpose of this podcast is to, they can engage in to be able to find their way through. And if it's joyful, then...it can become more clear and more joyful. And I guess maybe I just popped in something in my head is that, if you want to write, you have a particularly wonderful day, and you just feel like you want to write about it. How do you, do you feel different at the end of that than you would if something was problematic and you wrote about that?

Maggie Frank (15:29)

I love that question. I am going to need to feel into the work that I'm completing now and think about what it was like to document successes. And then what it was like to, I'll use a big word and say document tragedy, just for the polarity.

And I think there is just somewhat of a similar sense of, well, now I'm using the same word again, there's a similar sense of success. I did it. I brought that truth to light. I experienced the experience. I found the words that felt like they were so accurate. It's like I relived it right now and I wrote it. I put it with my pen and I put it on paper and I made ink come out and then I used my fingertips and these black marks appeared on the screen and that is the essence. I have found the essence. And when I read it, I feel the chills of the hard experience or the joyful experience. I feel it again. So there's a similar sense of, for me, accuracy and authenticity are very woven together, and that's not everybody. For some people, it's more about maybe the vision and accuracy, as Matisse said, it's not authenticity. But for me, feels very, they feel so close together. So the sensation is of truth. I found the top of the mountain, I landed if the experience was challenging that I'm documenting, or if the experience was joyful.

Jane Jones (17:14)

So there's a sense, a very real sense that they're...two opposites that you can understand or experience in a very real sense. I'm thinking of lyrics in popular music where truth and lies are all the same. Somebody that we would say is good and somebody that we would say is bad. It's that's all like treat them and you go through them and you can experience not that we justify but the goal is you don't overly criticize. We don't overly judge and condemn, but we also don't overly celebrate. We can kind of find this when you if I can please correct me or clarify if I'm going to what I'm gonna say is incorrect is that there is a sense where there's something that's really joyful. It's like, okay, I got it. And then you back down here, you back down in the center line in a peaceful place. And something that's overly tumultuous or tragic or whatever is that you kind of process it through, and then you come back, and you find that middle line again. You find that peaceful place. Either way, the seesaw is not useful. It's...okay as a child's game to have fun to a point, you know, there's a point where seesaw is not fun, but you kind of find that middle ground and when, I remember as a child getting that seesaw, I'm being able to find that middle place with my sisters. And we would, as much as fun as we like doing this up and down,

I thought this space that we found in the middle where we kind of that sweet spot where we both looking at each other was the sweetest thing for me, was the most powerful thing for me. Cause I could stay there and we could chat or, then if one of us did something one way or the other, it would have the game going again. And the goal in or one of the wonderful things about life is finding this peaceful place where if you want to go up and down a little bit, but you're not whacking back and forth between one and the other or back and forth like a ping pong ball. Is that close to what you are thinking in terms of your finding the singular sense of success you said was you found the essence of the joy or the hardship.

Maggie Frank (20:09)

I love that visual, first of all, of you and your sister having those moments going back and forth and buying the wiggle and then equalizing. And I might call that homeostasis, that beam of we're out of balance, we're out of balance. But we can write ourselves again. We know how to get here, and I can get here. And my kind of window of tolerance. I've learned a little bit in my up and down and now I can handle these ups and downs and they feel okay. And I also can get back to center, maybe a slight wiggle. I think writing is the mechanism. And for other people, it might be you know, different. I just think I just hold writing as such high esteem. For me, writing is that process of not saying

Jane Jones (20:43)

Yeah.

Maggie Frank (20:59)

Not saying I want these ups and downs to happen. I'm not saying that, but when they do, writing is going to help me. Maybe let's say it's you and your sister on this seesaw and as a writer, it's oneself and writing. And that's going to help us equalize. That's going to be the partner on the seesaw. That's going to help us get to this place. Yeah. I don't want the bad things. I'm not celebrating the bad things.

Jane Jones (21:27)

No, absolutely. And I think I was when I was talking about the good things, the bad things, there's things in the world or there's personal things that just different degrees, right? And the analogy breaks down a little bit because I have two sisters, I'm one older and one younger. And we're all really close in age. And that's something we would do, one would watch. I'm playing in my head that analogy and how I can, you know, sort of, yeah, I'll let that one go. That's not the topic of our conversation today.

Maggie Frank (21:59)

There was one word I wanted to share as you were talking about music and teeter totters. I think I call them teeter totters. 

Jane Jones (22:06)

Yes. 

Maggie Frank (22:07)

Was completion. You know, what it's like to write an experience that's really challenging and what it's like to write, you know, conversely an experience that was just all about joy or success or love or validation or something. The sense of completion for both is like... 

I want to relate it to other people doing other things. Like it's like I've wrapped up the present. I've tied the bow. It is now done. The story has been told. I can set it free from my person. I can set it free from my memory. I can still keep it in my in my timeline of my life experience, but it is no longer rattling around in there in my echo chamber. It's now out.

It's been told it's complete. And I just really think that's invaluable for people celebrating the successes and the births and the loves and the journeys and also cataloging and witnessing, really witnessing the challenges that the other buddy, the buddy on the teeter totter is so supportive.

Jane Jones (23:16)

A couple of things. After this process of completion, is there a return to something?

Maggie Frank (23:26)

Well, yeah, I think so. And I don't wanna take the thread away from where you're going, but if you're very open to where that might take me, yes, okay. What a beautiful question. Is there a return to something? I think there's a return to self. I think there's a return to capital S, self. I think all of us have lived lives that are going to have some bumps and some turbulence, and some scratches and I don't want that for anybody and yet I know that that's everybody. And so, when we can select an experience that needs to be witnessed maybe from our lightly burdened state or when we are in our state of washing, overflowing, overwhelming, overwhelm, we can select these experiences and just get them out. And once they're out, then the self that was with us 29 years ago, as I like to joke, maybe more than 29 years ago, years and years ago, that self can kind of stand up a little straighter and get a little bit less crunched down in that little ball that had to survive, survive whatever lack. They, she in this case of We Women Writers, she gets to stand up a little taller, and we get to we get to rub the dust out of our eyes and take a look around and say, Well, here I am. This is where I've landed. What am I going to do with where I've landed? It really, it's a return to self and that we get to look around and see, is this who I am? Is this what I am? Is this where I am?

Is this right for me?

Jane Jones (25:17)

We use the word healing a lot, that we're healing the past. And I'm beginning to wonder whether that's actually a correct phrase, that's the correct word. Now I want to be really careful is that there's an injury and a person has pins in their, broke their arm, they got pins in their arm and they're quote healed, but they're not really, because there's never going back to that original before. I love what you said when you said, where I've landed. I want to, when the dust clears and what do I do now? There's that old song from the seventies, Doctor My Eyes that pops in my head. Is it now I can see clearly now. Okay, now what do I do? I'm in a different place than I was before. And I have these parts of my life that I'd rather not have. But they're there as a result of that. And so, this way we've kind of returned back to what we were before the injury.

But we're now where we are now with all of the results of all of that, but we're back to where we were and now we can now move forward even with pins in an arm that now they can move forward. They might not ever be able to be a pro tennis person or whatever they were before, but... their life is different, and this is where they are now.

I really appreciate you saying that. In the introduction, in the conversation we had before on the phone was like a bit of an etymologist, and just really looking at words and how we use them and what they actually mean. And a lot of people think that, no, I feel like the word healing is used as I'm going to now be back perfect. Or there's this level of, well, I'll never get back to where I was before, so of a necessity, I have to be wounded the rest of my life. And maybe that's where the, I'm really interested in what you have to say because there's a, you said something earlier where you talked about that you were a writer from the beginning. That was what you did. Can you express to us what you mean by I was always a writer, I just always wrote, and it was your imagination. It was your friend.

So it's a question clear enough because I'm my mind is still bouncing around with different ways to go with this, but.

Maggie Frank (28:23)

I love to watch it bounce. It's great. You've let my mind go all over the place. So I don't, I don't think you're too far afield. I will try. I'll try to answer. Okay. What does, what does it mean that writing, that I've always been a writer? That's how I feel about myself without what you're asking. What does that mean? of? I think it means

Jane Jones (28:49)

Yes, please, yes.

Maggie Frank (28:53)

You know, these answers were not, they're not scripted. And so, they're coming to me the best that I can, just as the questions are coming to you, I think, as we navigate this together. As I think of that and feel through that, it feels like I, actually, this feels kind of tender in my heart. I feel like I'm unafraid of process and I'm unafraid of inquiry.

And as I say that, I don't want that to be an insult to anybody who feels maybe deeply, very unconsciously scared of process or inquiry or seeking healing or looking at their own damage or anything like that. I really, I want to hold any of those individuals in the place of I don't want to, I don't want to do that. If they had that feeling of just rejection, that is too much for me. No, I don't want to. I really want to hold them with care and say, Ooo, this is actually, this is really tender. Like in a maternal way, you don't have to. If it's not right for you, if it's not the right time, it's really okay. Truly. You can hear these words and you can read, you know, inspiring words about process and change and transformation, and you can just let them be because until someone is ready to pick up the pen and become a writer, then it's force. I don't want that for them. But I was born in a way that said process is okay. I don't know, it's just something that was given to me. I don't understand genetics at all. I don't understand, you know, like, hair color and eye color and any of that stuff. I don't understand it. But it's like that gene was switched on that said, it's okay to look. It's okay to look and ask. Curiosity is okay. And in fact, it's supportive. So go for it. It didn't mean that I was precocious. And I know that because I am raising two precocious people. I know the difference, it just mean that kind of channel was open, that I was comfortable with reflection and inquiry and process. Observations, kind of pattern recognition is a phrase, finding that edge, finding, going into the pain. If you've ever driven in the snow, steering into the skid.

Jane Jones (31:28)

Yeah, I’m from Toronto and drove in the snow.

Maggie Frank (31:31)

Yeah, that's right. You're a Canadian. You know more about snow than I ever will. Yes, so steering into the skid and turning into the discomfort. That's hard. So, I just want to honor that for people. That's really hard. But also that's something that I experience as a gift. I experienced that I was given that as a gift.

And I didn't know how to employ that gift as consciously as I am now. I didn't know how to employ that as a child and say, everybody, do this, it is wonderful. But I did do that. I tried safe things, but unusual things. And I've processed my world. And I really think it saved me.

Jane Jones (32:24)

Mm hmm. And I think saved is a is an appropriate word. And in a lot of people's lives, that whatever their process is that they can find their way through. You mentioned about when people are ready. And then you use the analogy of steering into a skid. And I remember a particular time where I was driving on a back country road in Ontario. Really stressful situation and I wasn't sure I was on the right road and somebody had given me directions. I was going to this little town, and I wasn't sure so I turned onto another country road, and then I realized, you know, in relatively short order that no, this wasn't right. I turned left too soon. And so, I turned around, and I was really in a panic. There was something panicky happening. I came out and there was no traffic. And I went to turn left back onto that main country road and the back tail of the car was like started to fishtail and started to... And I went, no, not now. This can't happen. And get me out of this. Because of where I was going was I didn't need this, right? And it was like something, and I knew I'd had smaller experiences like that, but this one was severe. And I just back steered into the, when you're fish tailing, that's what you do. You're like steering into it like that. And then I was in the middle of a turn when that happened. And it was like, don't, got out.

And then after very short order, very quickly, it righted itself in a way I went and I thank you. So this idea, when you're ready, something happens sometimes. Now that was really severe. But sometimes something happens, like you said earlier, you wake up at three in the morning, it's like, okay, get the pen. It's time and I'm gonna write this down, I'm gonna document this, I'm gonna put it all out there because it has to come out now. It's that kind of thing so that when these writers that you are honoring and respecting, that it's not something they want to do and to try to make it happen mechanically is maybe not the wisest thing to do. But when you're in the middle of something and it happens, you know that you can pick up your pen.

You have that in the back of your mind. This lady Maggie, I listened to what she said to say it. And it's like, that's what she means. So now I can pick up a pen and now it's time and then begin that journey.

The next thing I was going to ask you about was this idea of permission, and it sounds like, and carrying the same thread forward is that for you, you've always had permission. It's been part of what you do. And you've had support from family, but it was really this permission that you've always had, whether...people are supportive or not, people are nice or not nice or, whatever the situation is, you still have permission to move through that your own way. And putting together this idea of ready and permission.

Can you sort of in you from your experiences and the chair you're sitting in with your pen and paper experience, is there a relationship between ready and permission or permission and ready?

Maggie Frank (36:20)

No, I love those. I love the concept of permission. It's so deep, isn't it? And it's so intertwined with primal things, food. Do I have permission to eat this? Do I have permission to love? It's that yes, no kind of parental internal switch that says this is OK or it's not OK. That's such a core question, dressed up in a word that we use in terms of online safety or parenting. You don't have permission to do that, but really it's a very, very core concept. And as you were describing your car experience, wow, that's so scary, so fast, and you have to respond so quickly. And so it sounds like you did. That sounded like it was a lot.

Jane Jones (37:10)

Yeah, in that particular instance, we're into sort of segueing out a little bit, and then we'll come back, is that that was an experience I just, I already knew how to get out of the fishtail. I'd had lots of experience. I was older. I was, you know, and so we draw on those experiences from before. And sometimes there is a severe situation like that where there is no thinking. It's just like, “Oh no, not now, Get me out of this”. And then this thing inside me kind of goes, okay, we gotcha. And then it's like, thank you. And then you move along, and then I go to the...thing that is really hard that I have to take care of, things that are difficult. And so you, then there's that. And then there's these other little things where  I could go with lots of stories so I'm not going to, I'm going to pull myself back. Is it this idea that we have already have an experience, or that experience is readying us for another one down the road, and that you have been able to write through lots of this, has been a valuable service to yourself?

In your own life. And it is an opportunity in sharing this to become an example and a possibility, a permission, if you like, for other women to say, where have I not written? Where have I straight armed, ignored that idea, rejected that idea. For whatever reason, it's okay. But now, ah, Maggie thought it might be useful. You wait, and then something comes up. And it's okay, I got a pen. Here's a piece of paper, or here's a napkin, or whatever.

Maggie Frank (39:25)

I love that. Here's a napkin. You know, as we were talking about the car and we're talking about steering into the skid and then really, really wanting to give people space to make the decision when it's right for them and just steering away from force. that, because force, know, so when we're young and we have no agency, is the word, we have no agency, many things come down the pike as force. And so in adulthood, stepping away from force and into choice is a very healing, I believe, a healing maneuver. And so when I, you know, the audience that I'm writing for, I, I think about them and really holding that, that tender place of lack of lack of agency, lack of permission, lack of choice. want to create but as a writer, I'm reading into what you're saying, as a writer, we want to show people that there's a bridge from this place of I've got too much, I'm a swerving car, I'm driving to a destination where it's not going to be good, there's a waterfall falling on my head. Writing is this bridge to get us into this place of lightly burdened. If you want to cross that bridge, you can. You know, and we want to show you what it looks like to be in both states of this is too much and well, this is interesting. This is life. And writing can be that bridge. So, the other, the car thing that came to me was popping the clutch. And I was thinking of, you know, Julia Cameron and her morning pages, her three pages kind of don't do, don't do anything until those do whatever you have to do to get through those three pages. And it's, it is force.

But it's like a workout force. It's like, I'm at the gym cause I want to be and I'm going to, it's leg day and I'm going to do, I don't exercise. this is, I'm using words once again about, you know, genetics and exercise equipment that I don't quite understand it. I'm going to do this because my choice is to be here. So I think behind permission, is choice. Once we've reached adulthood and we can say, this is my, I'm gonna look around and see my environment. What am I going to do about the world around me? Maybe nothing, but what I can do is talk to the world within me. And that, that's my choice.

Jane Jones (42:00)

Yeah, you mentioned Julia Cameron's writing pages, because when for life for me was, was, you know, bumpy, bumpy, bumpy, and the wheels were falling off, and the sides of the wagons had broken. And I had her books, and I tried that. But for me, I felt it was force and I never, I could never identify it before, but you just identified it for me. It felt forced to me. It doesn't mean that her program is, there's lots more to it than just morning pages, you know. So I tried to adjust like to three little, little small books under the pages. But I found that for me, I wasn't ready. And I was trying to put myself into this position. And, I had picked up a tool that was too heavy for me. And, it's really a good tool. And, you know, I could utilize it now, but it was not possible at the time. So, this idea about being, not just what you said about steering away from force. And so you mentioned about Bird by Bird and Running Down the Bones with Natalie Goldberg and Anne Lamott is that, and I said those backwards, is that those books were particularly helpful for me because they were pieces of information.

And it was, here, this is what I do. And this is what I'm hearing from you is the same thing. Is it, this is what I do. This is what works for me. It might not work for you. And if it doesn't, it's all right. And Julia Cameron's morning pages, when you get there, for me personally, when you get there, it will be useful, and not one person, not one program can meet everybody's needs all at the same time. And so there's a huge value of having a wide variety there.

The permission, I'm gonna come back to permission a little bit is because I have in my mind this idea that you said agency and choice. And it gets me to the picture, and I think I've used it before is that when I was in school and any other sort of school and we have to go to the bathroom, we can't just get up and go to the bathroom. Your basic need of needing to empty your body of whatever your urine or whatever, is you can't. You have to, and if they don't see you and they don't respond to you and you're very, very uncomfortable and it's really, and you can be in a bad spot very quickly as a little child because you don't realize you gotta go to the bathroom until you gotta go to the bathroom. And so, but you're given a permission to go down the hall, and my experience of it is as soon as I'm out in the hallway, I instantly, I remember, I instantly feel better. Just instantly feel better. And our bathroom had these, those big round half moon sinks with all the little pieces, the streams of water that came out and you push your foot on the bottom and you get the soap and it, and I would play in there for ages. I love water, and then I would kind of get in trouble. because somebody got where that kid go, you know? And here I am playing in the water. And so then, you know, then you're back. But just being able to take care of yourself and then to have some fun for a few minutes. You have to have somebody's permission outside of you. And for me now, what I'm pulling together in your writing is that, okay, you know, I could, I could write about that, and I could understand that. And then, but I could own back the agency that I was not provided and the choice that I was not allowed. And I can, and while that those thoughts are still there, I can look and say, was really uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. And I had some bad situations cause you don't always, you know, it happened a lot of little kids in school, they wet their pants or whatever. And then, but I can choose to remember the parts that those are things were there, but the plane in the water is what, you know, and I'd love to have one of those in my house. It's like, I'd love that they all made of stone. were great. I think that it's the, can verbally tell you and I can, you know, and I'm telling the whole world, is that this writing though...

I have suspected that when I write about it, there will more come out.

In terms of on the page, there'll be more pieces of information or more clarity or more awareness of myself now. This returning to before I went to kindergarten, who I was then. And that all these years have happened in between, but I'm now me back again.

Is that kind of how you feel about this, your experience of this writing?

Maggie Frank (47:48)

Yes, beautifully put. Will you say that again? I have been suspicious that when I write, more will come out. What was it?

Jane Jones (47:58)

I suspect that more will come out. Because for me, I learn a lot by talking, a lot by interacting. That's not so much reading, not so much being by myself, although that's getting more comfortable. The idea that I can listen to somebody and I can, pardon me, reflect and then I can come back out with something and I can work something out within me. I find that where there's something that's particularly, I find that when I actually sit down and write about that, I learn more about myself. So as I'm thinking now, I go, okay, so there's these other things about childhood and going to the skating rink, the schoolyard, and this and that and all the people around me and how I felt. And it's opened up that experience of being at school is opened up other experiences where people around me, things were happening and there was no ability to process that.

And, but now I can in my head, I'm going through more things and it's not everybody, it's not another person's job to hear everything that's inside of me, but I have the privilege to write and sort all of that out where the conversation that we're having has now just put little light, flashing lights around a door.

It's like, enter here, enter here. And it's a, Yeah, so pulling back to this idea of permission is this idea of permission, whereas our experiences, has to come from something outside of us that there is in the processing of it, I'm feeling like it's more, I want it to be more this permission comes from inside me. That when I, when I want to go for a walk, I can go for a walk. And I am allowed to do that. Whereas in the past, I've always had to been given permission to do that. Is that kind of what your experience of your writing, your intuitive writing, your friend, or even the artwork as well. I'd like to touch base on that one as well. Both of those things have been things that intuitively granted you permission to explore and ask those hard questions.

Maggie Frank (51:02)

Yes. And as you know, so beautiful. Thank you. As the correlation between, asking for permission to go do something basic, a basic need, an essential need, and like you say, the timing for children is different as an adult, we have, you know, green, yellow, orange, red alert, you know, we have that spectrum and their spectrum is being developed at the time. So they don't have that. And yet that's the time when we take choice away from them. And say it's not convenient, I don't believe you. You've already gone, whatever we do to shut down that basic need. And I think that expression and communication, and processing reflection, they can be the same. They're the same need. We need to process. And so someone saying, right now. Do not have that reaction. Don't have that feeling. Don't have that need, it stays with us forever. And they're the needs of love, self-awareness, you know, body bodily needs. When someone gives us the creeps and we feel it inside of ourselves and we want to tell our grownup, that's not welcome because that's a relative, and you don't, you know, don't talk about that person that way. So all of these messages, you're not allowed to feel that way. It's permission.

It's a lack of permission, that toggle switch of permission. So as you're talking about this and we're kind of dialoguing about it, it makes me want to say to your audience, let's write a declaration of independence. Let's put together our list of things that you are allowed to do now.

You're allowed to observe. You're allowed to feel pain and it's your own. You don't have to give it to anybody else. You don't have to take on anybody else's pain. Let's stay in our lane when it comes to our experiences and we get to write about them, express them, doodle on any napkin about them. We get to feel them, express them, witness them as our truth in that moment.

Accept them.

And then we're transformed. And then we're free. Then we've wrapped up the present. Just gonna keep bouncing through these metaphors. Just cars and presents and teeter totters and bathrooms, all of it. Then that's the process of liberation.

Jane Jones (53:43)

Yeah. And you like to pick up going back to the very beginning, you talked about art as well as writing. Can you share us a little bit about what that is, how that showed up in your life?

Maggie Frank (53:59)

You know, I've been thinking, you know, I've been thinking about our getting to talk together and how they're different for me. And I want to say, I believe this is everybody. I believe that everybody has access to a couple of imaginary friends. For me, it's art and writing. And for other people, you know, I really want to support the people that are very tactile, tangible, you know, the...the people who can build a slingshot and the folks who want to go and build a house. And once again, out of my element, I don't know, but I'm not 3D. I'm a 2D person. So building things, a jewelry maker, you know, the ability, I believe we all have the ability to create. And I think you nailed it in the concept of permission. Someone might've said, you're not creative. You're, you know, that's not how we, we're not creative as a family, as a school, that's not what we do. We're not creative. And it powers down that place. It powers down that friend. But I don't think that friend is gone. I think that friend is just waiting. Maybe slightly a few steps back, maybe slightly more imaginary. So for me, my two friends were writing in preparation for a conversation. I was thinking like, how are these different? Because they are for me. I think writing is about processing. I think it's a gift. I think it's not that I'm a gifted writer. I think that the drive to process, let's be careful of that one, but the drive to process and the feeling of safety in processing is a gift. But there's beauty, I hope, that comes out of my writing. I want that. I want the experience of reading something that I've written to be beautiful, but it's not as much the place where I express the beauty of the world or the pain of the world. And art does that for me. Art is where the heart, the emotions, the intangible, the divine reflection of, it's just, it's a big swirly, swirly twirly, what is that from? Elf swirly twirly gumdrops. It's a big, it's, it's beauty and majesty and nuance, and that's more ethereal for me. Art is more, that's very much about expression, obviously, because I can't even talk about it. And writing for me is a very solid, rich place to process. You know, if we're like, maybe one is the earth and one is the sky.

I think people have these. I think people have these places where they can use a tool, like you say, for processing. And we pick up the wrong tool at the wrong, you know, we pick up the right tool at the wrong time and suddenly it's too heavy. But for me, writing is very much about processing. And I am an artist, and I very much care about the delivery of that process. I really want to reach people so that every sentence speaks to you and says something as beautiful as that painting that I've made, but it's a different drive within me.

Jane Jones (57:11)

Is it appropriate to say that the writing is something that is reflective and processing? It's a process that's reflective. It's coming from you, and it's on the page. And then if the desire is when somebody reads it, that it be something that is inspiring and beautiful to them. Whereas art is something that you're creating something.

It's not necessarily the process. It's like there's some something you want to put out there, so there's a differentiation between the creating of something and the processing of something. And, and I'm wondering whether for some it could be that the art is also processing. Is that?

Maggie Frank (58:07)

I think so. You really identified what I was trying to say. Yes. I want to say when you said, this appropriate to say, yes, that feels very accurate to me. And yes, I believe there are artists. I mean, I know that there are artists who that's their processing of the world. And it could be one in the same for them, that they're processing as well as expressing and I feel lucky to have these multiple, these dual access points. That's not the right phrase, but these options, I have these.

Jane Jones (58:46)

Yeah, you said just recently, you said in this last bit of conversation that if you pick up the wrong tool, it's too heavy. So a person who's trying to express themselves through art and they're trying to process or express whatever and it doesn't work, it's too heavy. doesn't work. It either doesn't happen or it's frustrating or the end product isn't what they want because the tool they're using is too heavy. Whereas if they picked up a pen, and for the purpose of our conversation, they picked up a pen, that might be a lighter tool or vice versa, right? People that you have had a lot of experiences of being judged and punitively and very not safe in terms of writing. Then art may be a more safe place. Yeah, there's so, at everybody, there's gonna be so many different experiences and which tool and to what degree and when is fluid, isn't it? Like you said earlier, holding this space for people and just, you get to choose, you have agency, you get to figure this out. And there's a lot of people around that are going through similar things. So you don't always have to know everything about everybody, but knowing that everybody's going through something.

Maggie Frank (1:00:23)

Definitely.

I think something about the permission piece, you know, is your, is a, it's a podcast for women writers. So we've got potentially people who are interested in, in writing, if they're not doing it every day, if they're not publishing left and right, they're, they're interested, they're writing curious. So that I'm wondering about individuals who haven't maybe taken the plunge and aren't comfortable calling themselves a writer or maybe even aren't comfortable writing regularly, haven't tapped into it as a place of process. Maybe they're not taking themselves seriously. Maybe it's their art. it's their, they want to, maybe they're poets and they want to make everything beautiful. I'm not a poet. That is not my love language. I've read some of your work online. I followed your links and look, my gosh, I'm not that. I want to learn how to do that. But that would be very structured thing for me to have to learn how to do. It's not intuitive for me. So, you know, maybe they're on some kind of writing spectrum, most likely, if they're interested in listening to this. So to me, it's about going to the pain point. Where is the place where someone said to you or showed you or they told you, they modeled for you, they showed you in some way, they took away your pens, you know, took away your notebook. Where was that place that writing was denied to you as an imaginary friend, as a support, as a buddy on the seesaw? When did that happen? And let's write about it. 

And let's free the you that was then from that belief that that's not your birthright. Like as part of that Declaration of Independence, let's go to that place, those multiple places where someone said to you, you just don't have the gift. You're just not good at this. know, gosh, I wish you, you know, I wish you could do what I follow the theme and make an outline, whatever they hammered into you or whatever they lightly said that that knocked you off track. Let's go to that place and find that person that's still there. You know, that capital S self that is there waiting with a pen in her hand waiting to jot something down and let's free her. You know what can you do to set her free and give her the permission?

To be beautiful.

Jane Jones (1:02:54)

Yeah. Yeah.  To be the beautiful that she is.

Maggie Frank (1:03:03)

Exactly.

Jane Jones (1:03:05)

Yeah. Thank you.

I do like the analogy or the way you frame it that these are your imaginary friends. Because so often little children have imaginary friends and then they go away but writing and art don't go away. They're always there with us.

It actually might be fun for people who remember imaginary friends to write about those imaginary friends. You know, that would be an interesting, I think a very enlightening experience for somebody, a very heartwarming experience in processing the experience of having them and, maybe if they remember when they went away and how that happened because they're viewed as something that is not real because adults who have lost their imaginary friends look at it and say they're not real. And whether they are or not is not what I'm driving at, but you're likening art and writing to imaginary friends. I think it's particularly lovely.

Yeah, thank you for that.

Maggie Frank (1:04:35)

Thank you for asking. I didn't know that I felt that way about them until you asked. Once again, that reflective moment allowed me to make that leap. How am going to translate the essence of this feeling into a human word, a word in English that's going to communicate a feeling to this other human being so that she can understand what I'm trying to say. So, thank you for helping me crystallize that.

Jane Jones (1:05:00)

You're welcome. And it's my pleasure. The goal is to be able to be mutually supportive and inspiring and beneficial to one another. And I, I really hope that the listeners are able to glean something of value for them in their own lives and, and to be kind to themselves and to each other. It's, it's a, it's a very much more nice place to be. Yeah. All right. So I would like to, at some point in the future, have you back up with your with memoir when it's done and, and see how where where you are at that point in time, if if you would, you know, depends on where you are with with things, but, you know, certainly be happy to have another conversation if you like.

And is there one thing, and I don't like to say one thing, but is there something particularly that you feel like would be useful to, based from our conversation, would be useful to support women who are writing or thinking of writing?

Maggie Frank (1:06:14)

Thank you for the offer to come back. would love to come back. I'm honored, and that would just be so much fun. I love getting to chat with you and the fact that now other people get to chat along with us is also exciting. So, thank you. In terms of something to share with listeners, you know, since I've somewhat spoken about my care for those who might be in the compost time, maybe I'll talk more about that perspective rather than more established writers who are really comfortable with that word as part of who they are. So speaking to someone who might not quite be ready or not quite identify as someone who writes, I want to say, it's supposed to be bad. It's supposed to be crummy. It's supposed to be, not good. When you're first getting started, it's riding a bike. You're supposed to fall off. We would, we would never criticize a child for falling off a bicycle time and time again. And especially if it turns out that that child, there's some type of processing that doesn't make sense to them about keeping the bike in motion, that momentum. They need a little help in some part of it, or keeping one's hands in the so-called right place on the handlebars. If they're doing it in a way that it's kind of unsupportive to them learning how to ride a bike, we're not gonna criticize them. We're going to wait and see.

When the child realizes, I want my hands over here, that feels good. But for now, the hands feel good right there. Okay, the hands feel good right there. It's supposed to be awkward until it feels like you, until you say, my hand is now I'm holding a pen. My hand goes right here and the paper goes right here and my heart and my mind and my soul and myself, they go right here. So, I want to talk to that place that says it's supposed to be now. I want to talk to that pressure. I'm supposed to be good. I have thoughts. They're good thoughts. But when I translate them onto paper or type them on my computer, they're not good. They're not supposed to be good. Get out. All of them. Because they don't need to be inside. They are going to help you more outside. You can play with them like Legos outside. When they're inside, they're going to jumble and tumble, and they're going to be your echo chamber.

So, it's supposed to be imperfect. So just let it be. Just keep writing.

Jane Jones (1:09:00)

Perfect. Just keep writing, excellent. And being comfortable and getting them, putting them out there, and playing like Legos. I love that analogy. Thank you, Maggie. Thank you. Okay, so thank you everybody for being with us and we'll have Maggie back another time and hope everybody's enjoyed this and everybody has a really wonderful day. Thanks very much. Take care. Bye bye now.