E065_Looking back on your leadership journey, what have you learnt along the way?

Join us for an enlightening conversation on your Leadership Journey with James Mpele, a passionate advocate for safety initiatives and a proud father from South Africa.

Connect with James on LinkedIn

Nuala and James explore the essence of leadership, tracing its impact on various aspects of life.

From James's early experiences in a church community to his professional journey during South Africa's transformative Black Empowerment era, this episode offers invaluable insights into resilience, mentorship, and embracing vulnerability in leadership.

Explore the significance of self-awareness in leadership, discover practical advice on seeking feedback and nurturing talent, and gain insights into navigating the complexities of leadership in a rapidly changing world.

As they envision the future of leadership, James and Nuala reflect on emerging trends highlighted by the World Economic Forum (WEF), emphasising the importance of emotional intelligence and adaptability. 

Join this engaging conversation to uncover essential attributes for shaping tomorrow's leaders, including curiosity, collaboration, and continuous learning.

In a heartfelt conclusion, James shares his vision for leadership and celebrates the transformative power of meaningful conversations. 

Join us for this episode and embark on your leadership journey with courage, curiosity, and compassion.

Thanks for listening!

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This episode was produced under Safety Collaborations Limited and now continues as part of Karin Ovari Limited. While we are not currently releasing new episodes, the entire library remains active, and the topics covered are just as relevant today as when they were first recorded.

To learn more about my current work in leadership and communication, visit karinovari.com and the leadership community, The Supervisors Hub.

Connect with us on LinkedIn:  Karin Ovari, Nuala Gage,

If you enjoyed this episode, please help us spread the word and leave a review on your preferred podcast player. 
 
 Stay Safe, Stay Well
The Safety Collaborators

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:12

Leadership is not about a title. It covers every aspect of life work, home, friends and how you show up. And today I am delighted to say that I am joined by my friend and a friend of safety collaborations, james Mpele. James, I would love you to introduce yourself.

Speaker 2 0:36

Thank you. Thank you for having me. My name is James Mpele and I was born and raised in South Africa. I am a father of two daughters and I'm delighted to be here, that is fabulous.

Speaker 1 0:53

So I am Nula and along with Karen, we are the safety collaborators, and our mission is to help people have better conversations and change the way they think about safety. Consider us your thinking partners, sharing expertise and wisdom in everything safety, safety culture and psychological safety. So we met and I actually went and had a look in 2013 for the first time. I cannot believe that that is 11 years ago, yep, and we were facilitating a safety leadership workshop in Congo, in Pointe Noir.

Speaker 2 1:34

I remember that very well. We had a lot of fun. We did that. We certainly did.

Speaker 1 1:41

You also rescued me. One morning, I do remember, for the first time ever on a job, I actually overslept and I got this knock on the door and you were like Nula, are you joining us today?

Speaker 2 1:52

And I was like sometimes it happens, especially if you have travelled, and then you try to adjust. Yeah, it's understandable.

Speaker 1 2:04

As I mentioned today, we are going to spend some time having a conversation around what does it look like in leadership? And Karen and I thought it would be wonderful to start bringing in some voices of friends, of safety collaborations, to hear about their leadership experiences and just what it means to move from that transition of going from you being part of the team to being a leader and how that shows up in the rest of your life. And to start off with James and to help our listeners out there hear a little bit more about you what can you remember about your first experience of stepping into a leadership role?

Speaker 2 2:49

Wow, it was many, many years. So I was brought up in a very religious environment. So I went through being the Sunday School attendee, became part of the youth group, and when I was part of the youth group I remember very well that our church, especially in the leadership, we had 25% or just the breakout, sorry, the profile of the church. There were a lot of young. Probably 75% were young people and only 25% were old people. Wow so, but when it came to leadership, there was no young people in the leadership. So we looked at this and we decided we want to change this because we would have voted those people into the leadership positions. So we thought we need to change this. And when we became the leadership elections, they elected me into the leadership. And there I was, on my own with these old people. So they looked up to me to say to change it. Well, what are you bringing to the table? But I did not have anything at 8am. But then I had to read books on leadership and I came across profiles of a leader. That was the title. So I read what a leader needed to look like. So it was to me by someone who was in the Department of Education. So I started reading about leadership. I realized how important leadership was. As John Maxwell says, everything rises, everything falls in leadership. So it wasn't a smooth transition. No one to guide me, I was just on my own.

Speaker 2 4:52

There was when I was still a teenager Perhaps I can just fast forward when I was in the work environment. It was in the 90s and the government had just introduced the black empowerment. Now companies had transition from how they do things and the profiles of companies had to change. So what we were getting is the fact that it's not easy to get people of color into these leadership positions. That made me so angry, because I was in the HR space and I knew a lot of HR practitioners. So I said I will find the people who would be part of the team. Well done you. If you find them, you will be the manager. You know, when you say something out of anger and now people hold you to it, in time it will just the anger speaking. So I really had to step up and find the people firstly and then start them. But I was young. We were more or less the same age, some were even older than me.

Speaker 2 6:11

But it was such a mixed group. I was very proud of myself. But then it doesn't end there. I had to prove myself, I had to prove. So there was a lot of pressure on myself. Not easy, because some of the people were already part of the team, so I had to work very hard to build the team. Fortunately, a lot of reading around leadership and just knowing myself my natural charm.

Speaker 1 6:40

And you do have a lot of that natural charm.

Speaker 2 6:43

Well, yeah, yeah, but I just had to dig deep and make this happen, and the payoff for that is that even long after I had left the organization, we still had what we called team meetings. Every August we get together. We bring our families For me. It was a lot of hard work, but it did pay off. We're still reaping the benefits of that, even today. Gosh, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 7:16

It's so interesting how you've said that it wasn't an easy transition, because we do. We kind of go yes, I will make this happen, and often I don't know how you found it, but when I first went into a leadership role, I just thought this is going to be easy. I'm going to be working with my mates you know, these are people that I know and of course, it's going to be smooth and oh my word.

Speaker 2 7:38

I think leaders just put themselves under pressure, wanting to prove things as opposed to asking for help and knowing that people or your colleagues want you to succeed is no one who wants you to fail, because if you fail, they also fail. Sometimes we ourselves, under tremendous pressure, trying to prove.

Speaker 1 8:02

That is such a poignant statement because you're right, we do. It's our want to succeed, but also the want to support our teams and to see them grow. And there's often that fear around. If I put my hand up and ask for help, it means that people are going to think I'm not capable or competent. And you know, you went out and you learned, you found books, you found ways of and you had the experience from you know, being going into such a young leadership role in the church, did you have any people you could look up to, or mentors or role models who supported you and influenced your journey?

Speaker 2 8:45

In one of the companies that I worked for, accenture to be specific. So when you joined as a new recruit, so they would assign you to a mentor, someone who has two levels above you, so they would assign, for example, I was an HR, so I had an HR manager from another unit whom I could look up to, whom I could have meetings with. So it was a structured mentorship program and after that I just realized the importance of mentorship and I went looking for my own mentors. Even today, I still have people who play a mentorship role in my life.

Speaker 2 9:31

Now, the good thing about mentorship is that it's not just limited to, it can spill over to personal life. So we go out for tea and a meeting which is getting last for an hour, last for hours and hours, and we have become best of friends. And he said to me that I'm the one person who gets him because he's very dynamic. He comes across as arrogant, but he's not arrogant, he's just clear about a lot of things. So people he lends as if he's arrogant to other people, but with me I just let him be and I listen to him in as much as he listens to me. So the relationship is really, really matured, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 10:23

I'm just listening to that and that's you looking at a mentor and going. You know what. This person isn't trying to be difficult. They just do things differently to the way that I do them. Is that an important skill as a leader being able to view people for who they are and understand that they are different to the way you would do things or the way other people in your team would, and then bring that together?

Speaker 2 10:53

Acceptance doesn't mean that I'm accepting what. I'm accepting your idea. I'm accepting or I'm agreeing with what you are saying. It's acceptance is about it's you. You have the platform. I'm accepting what you are saying, but I don't necessarily have to agree with what you're saying. So nothing is personal here. So it's your viewpoint and I'm accepting your viewpoint. I'm accepting that. This is where you come from. It doesn't suddenly mean that I agree with what you are saying. It's called acceptance and I think if we accepted each other, we will go a long way, as opposed to you.

Speaker 2 11:36

Know, if you say something, then I become defensive. Then if I'm becoming defensive, I cannot let anything come through to me. And also being able to sift. This is him talking. He's looking at things from his perspective. But I've got my own perspective. Give it to me, then I'll sift and I take what can help me, as opposed to you. Know, I'm not really adopting everything that you are saying. You are. Sometimes we do have differences of opinions. He would say to me um well, because I operate totally different, I'm a people's person. He can be very, very rough, to the point.

Speaker 2 12:24

I can't blunt. Yeah, he would ask me to go and give talks and he would say to me you tell them like one, two, three, but it sounds like you know what to tell them. I didn't do tell them. He said, oh, but you're the way of telling them. So, in other words, he's accepted me, I've accepted the fact that we operate differently.

Speaker 1 12:45

And I love that because it really shows that you go from that sense of what are each other's strengths. It's not just a case of, okay, well, I'm accepting who you are and I am understanding that you have different ways of looking at, but you're also going okay, hang on, wait, these are my strengths and these are your strengths and they complement where we may I don't like the term areas of weakness or development, but it's just areas that are not our natural forte and then bringing that into the way that we view things or the way that we do things. So, in the spirit of we bring that back into a team dynamic, how important that is for teams, because we don't have to know everything.

Speaker 2 13:31

And that's what collaboration is about. Collaboration is about I'm bringing something to the table and you also bringing something, and we look at each of the points, we match them and we take. So we are co-creating. You bring your strength, I bring my strength, and then we create. And sometimes it could be we're creating something that never existed. It could be well, I like your idea, let's build a new idea, and then your idea takes the lead because, in terms of the solution that we are looking for, yours will be the best solution. I can just contribute to your idea, but that's really what collaboration is about. You bring your input, I bring my input, and together we co-create.

Speaker 1 14:26

I love that because it brings in that's where innovation happens, where we can contribute, and then we can challenge and say, oh yes, I think that's a good idea, but I think it's missing this area or it's tweaking this or what have you.

Speaker 2 14:41

So that's just absolutely brilliant, which brings another skill which is becoming so, so critical in leadership. This is now curiosity being curious.

Speaker 2 14:55

Oh yes, oh, it's becoming such an important skill because I do not. There's no way I can know everything and there's no way that you can know everything. So if you come up with an idea or you sharing a viewpoint, I need to be curious, and absolutely be curious, tuned in and listen to what you are saying, because once I bring judgment, the judgment will close me off. I cannot hear anything that you're saying. But if I'm curious, I will dig deep. Well, I can hear that your viewpoint is slightly different from mine. I'm just wondering where you're coming from. Tell me more about your idea. Curiosity is becoming such an important skill in leadership.

Speaker 1 15:46

In leadership and you know, I think just being a human being, because the more curious we can be, the more we won't look at people as being. You're not part of my group, you're not part of my way of being, but it's different and I think that has been one of my greatest lessons from the work that we do and travel Is that we are so exposed to other cultures, other ways of being, and when you go into a new culture and you go enclosed, everything is scary, but when you go in and you are open and curious, everything and all the people become exciting.

Speaker 2 16:27

Yeah, as opposed to being suspicious. Yes, you become curious and curiosity leads to excitement and open-mindedness. It's just a wonderful feeling that comes from you thinking or deciding that I want to be curious. It's empowering, it's very empowering.

Speaker 1 16:51

It's wonderfully empowering and it's also, I think, it just grows you so much as a person because it helps you understand yourself better.

Speaker 2 17:02

Absolutely so. Curiosity is a 360 view of things yourself, others, others above you, others below you. So you are curious, and if people give you feedback about yourself, you are not defensive, you become curious. I'm just wondering do you think this is how I am lending? Because that's not what I meant. I'm just curious. How are you hearing me? So it's still being curious.

Speaker 1 17:32

What a beautiful question. How are you hearing me? I'm actually doing a safety coaching course at the moment and the lecture on it is a gentleman by the name of Dan Newby and he does a lot of work around emotions and one of the modules I was doing was on emotions and it linked between his work on emotions and the conversational intelligence work on understanding, which we have a term called double clicking, and it's a bit like when you open a file on a computer, you know you keep double clicking until you get to the information you need.

Impact of Self-Awareness on Leadership

Speaker 1 18:09

So, when we are not understanding something, what are the questions we need to ask? To keep double clicking and what else is a lovely one until you get an understanding. And when I was listening to the session about emotions, it's very similar to that. We all talk about emotions and we have some labels that we put on emotion, but we don't describe the story that goes around that, because my story around an emotion might be very different to yours. And until we actually get that curiosity and go well, you know what does trust mean for you and what does that look like and what emotion does that bring up in you, what range? It's a rainbow of emotion and really doing that and I mean, I don't know about you, but I found that really embracing learning about myself has had a huge impact on my journey. How has learning about yourself impacted?

Speaker 2 19:11

Yeah, learning, about myself is a foundation for any personal growth. I came across this concept of self-awareness many years ago during my when I was studying towards my masters in HR and leadership, so there was a module on self-awareness. So, and I'm just realizing that a lot of people don't allow themselves or don't allow themselves to get to know themselves, so people tend to be defensive and easier to learn about things as opposed to learning about yourself. But when you allow yourself to learn about yourself, there's another program that I'm doing where we talk about resilience journey.

Speaker 2 20:10

So, this is for experienced leaders. So these leaders are now very senior, very experienced. We force them to go back and map out a resilience, their resilience journey. This is where they started how the journey was when they started things that they've had to overcome. They list them, they map them out and then we ask them to reflect and just see how strong they are, things that they've had to overcome. And then we tell them now let's build on your strengths. We already have these strengths. You have the proof. This is the map, this is the, this is the journey. Yes, you're very, very strong, so let's build on this.

Speaker 2 21:05

So self-awareness helps you to build on your strengths, things that you have proven to yourself, you know about yourself. Then it becomes easier. In fact, that's just how you accelerate your impact on others. You accelerate a building trust within the team because you're building on the stuff that you know about yourself, stuff that you've implemented and it has worked. And it becomes easier as a leader because we don't have to defend anything, but you have a track record of things that you've achieved, where you've been resilient. But obviously we also check, make sure that you are not always in the resilient mood Mood all the time, because that can be stressful. Well, things that you overcome, yeah, it can be exhausting, so, but self-awareness is a foundation to any self-development in. It's so important, it's very, very important.

Speaker 1 22:15

There was something you said earlier around while you were looking at that resilience map and it reminds me so much of future focus coaching and that's exactly that. But I want to know what went wrong. I want to know what you did to come out of it. Okay.

Speaker 2 22:29

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 22:30

Because those are the strengths that you take into your future, and that resilience map is actually really exciting. I think I might be doing a little exercise on that myself.

Speaker 2 22:43

It is exciting and it's very empowering because you can just see, you know the journey that you've taken, your successes that you've had. Sometimes we are so under pressure to move on to the next thing, even if you achieve something here. We don't give ourselves time to celebrate what we've achieved. We quickly move on to the next person and the next thing and we lose out the moment to celebrate our successes. And self-awareness has to do with pausing and patting yourself on the back. James, well done. Tell yourself that, because the world out there can be very harsh and if you're not nice, if you're not gentle to yourself, I mean, how do we expect people to be gentle to you?

Speaker 1 23:38

And you know we talk so much about care and in the safety industry and the safety world we talk so much around moving from compliance to care, and care starts with kindness. It doesn't mean you're going to let people get away with things that are detrimental or anything, not at all. It's not about, you know, creating an environment where everyone steps on eggshells and no one can sit. Challenge Challenging is important, but it's challenging with kindness and care, because I care enough to want to improve the environment we're working in and also as someone who is leading in that area.

Speaker 2 24:18

If people are unkind, you need to be a mirror to them. And going back to curiosity, you're coming across as aggressive on this point and I'm just wondering what makes you feel the way you feel? So you're giving it back to them so that they can reflect on themselves Again. You want them to because I cannot be. If I'm not kind to myself, I cannot. It becomes difficult to be kind to the next person. So people who are not kind to others, in most cases they are also not kind to themselves. Kindness starts with you.

Speaker 1 24:59

It is so true Wow. For younger people who are going into that transition or into leadership. There are still books available, and there are some amazing books out there on leadership. Where else could they go or what else could they do to understand themselves better and how they are showing up as leaders?

Speaker 2 25:22

First of all, you need to have a mentor a mentor who will act as a mirror mentor, mentor and mentor. So if others of ours are interested in getting moving forward, they will gather and connect with Jesus Christ, totally open to and they can give you feedback, and you can also ask feedback from the people that you lead. And also, sometimes, feedback will be there if a company has done some survey. Some companies do these after every 18 months or 12 months. So just look at the feedback which is there and don't be defensive and look at the feedback objectively and be curious about the feedback that you're getting.

Speaker 2 26:04

I can hear, I can see that you are not comfortable in this area and I'm just wondering how we can improve things. It's a bit scary and you feel vulnerable as a leader, but vulnerability is also part of growth. If you think about any invention around the world people who invented cell phones or whatever is there they would have gone through a period of being vulnerable. But if this thing doesn't work I've made so much noise around it and what if it doesn't work? That's a moment of being vulnerable. The same applies to you on your leadership journey. At some point you need to be vulnerable, but being vulnerable obviously doesn't mean that now I need to be totally giving deep-person darkest secrets.

Speaker 1 26:59

Completely open to anything.

Speaker 2 27:03

Well, that's not really a vulnerability, that's being reckless. But you need to build trust and part of building the trust is sharing as much as you can and allowing as much feedback as you can and working on the feedback. Obviously, the feedback is also you need to look at the authenticity of the feedback. Some people can just be malicious, but look at what are you getting from the people that you trust and the people that you lead.

Speaker 1 27:35

Thank you for that. I think that's so valuable and it's so valuable knowing the difference and what vulnerability is all about, because I think it can get misconstrued sometimes. You've had various leadership roles throughout your life. I mean, you've had amazing, whether it's being in the work environment, as a consultant, in your family and sometimes hindsight. You know that 2020 vision. You look back and you go oh, I wish I had known this sooner. As a leader, what would be a couple of your top lessons that you wish you had been aware of a little bit earlier in your leadership career?

Speaker 2 28:18

Well, the first one is knowing that most people want you to succeed. No one is out there to get you and I, when I started in my leadership journey, the white-black race issue was very, very strong, so anything that happened, I would connect it to racism.

Speaker 1 28:43

Okay, fair enough If I were to advise my younger self.

Speaker 2 28:47

It would be just relax, okay, just be objective and ask for help. Asking for help is not a weakness, but it is a strength. People are willing to help you. So it would be just relaxing and asking for help and supporting others. The more you support others without expecting anything back, the more they would support you. That's just how you build the trust. And focusing on building the trust. I mean trust is so foundational in anything that we do as leaders, because if I trust you, I'm likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, even if I don't understand what you're saying. And obviously trust has to do with how I've been showing up on a consistent basis. So I know NOLA has given the emotional deposit, so the balance you remember that Stephen Kavre's emotional account. So if you're consistent, then you are building reputation. You are being consistent accelerate trust in any team. So if I show up on a consistent basis and then unlikely to impact people positively, Consistency.

Speaker 1 30:08

I think we could do an entire discussion just on what is consistency and what does it look like? Absolutely absolutely. And that's in everything I mean. I just think about even just health and well-being. I know when I have not been consistent in eating the good food and you know doing the exercise, because my body shouts at me and it works the same Absolutely, yeah, well, sometimes they do shout yeah, and if you have little children, they will remind oh, but Daddy, that's not what you say, this is so true.

Speaker 2 30:46

Then you have a shock of your life, because all the time you thought they were not really listening.

Speaker 1 30:52

They are listening and someone's always watching.

Speaker 2 30:55

Absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 1 30:58

So one of the questions that I asked you to consider was and I might change it slightly well, you can see that the question originally was what is your vision for the future of leadership in high reliability industries? And maybe it's not even in high reliability industries, maybe it's just what is your vision of the future for leadership?

Speaker 2 31:18

Wow, there is a document that I read. It is from the, the World Economic Forum. Okay, they listed some skills that will be key in the year 2025. It was compiled about four years ago, in 2025, which will be next year. Yeah, so they speak about emotional intelligence and will continue to be a critical skill in 2025 and beyond.

Speaker 2 31:49

Also critical would be the ability to solve complex problems. So, as we can all see, our world is becoming so complex, we need to be able to have the competency to solve difficult problems, because artificial intelligence will solve these simple problems. Yeah, now we are confronted with difficult problems to solve. Another competence very important would be learning as much as you can. Learning and failing fast, because the world is moving so fast.

Speaker 2 32:31

So, for me, my vision for the future of leadership is the fact that, as leaders, we cannot stop learning, but we need to be learning all the time, being curious about things that are coming out there, and I was talking to someone in her 80s. I asked her what has kept you going? You look sharp. You look all that at your age, and she said to me I'm very curious. I'm very, very curious. If I see a new gadget, I want to try it out. I want to see how it works.

Speaker 2 33:09

So that's really how we can survive as leaders, because what has opened the doors in the past for us may not. The skills that we have brought us to where we are today may not take us into the future. So learning has to be constant and it has to be accelerated. It's not just learning at your pace, but the changes that are happening are dictating to us that we cannot just. Well, I'm taking five year gap year. By the time you come back, things would have changed so much. So, yeah, those are some of the things obviously quite a few of them, but for me, those would be critical.

Speaker 1 33:53

And I love because you and I have known each other for so long, and I think that's one of the things is that there's always something to learn or something to do, something to share, and I mentioned at the beginning of this conversation that I'm busy doing another safety coaching course and people might be going, but you've been a safety coach for years.

Speaker 1 34:12

What more do you have to learn? There is always something more to learn, whether it's a perspective or a challenge in the way that I do things or think, or the questions I ask, and that's what inspires me to go out there and make a better effort, help teams. Even more is that I am constantly being challenged in the learning that we do.

Speaker 2 34:35

And also learning about yourself. I'm discovering things about myself and it's exciting. It's an exciting journey. I agree with you that there's always something new to learn, so it's just up to us to make the time in land.

Speaker 1 34:50

And nothing stays still. You know, context is always changing and it's all the time. So, to end on something fun, because I think you have given so much amazing insight and thank you for the insight that you've given. I know that it will bring such value I want you to think of a leadership figure that, if you had the opportunity, you could go and sit down and have an amazing dinner with them. Who would that be and why?

Speaker 2 35:21

Well, I thought about that question and guess what I came up with seven figures. Oh my word.

Speaker 2 35:29

We're going to have a party. There's a picture that I came across. It had seven African leaders Oliver Tambo, the ANC leader, samora Michelle, from Mozambique, zef Motupeng from Azzapo, robert Mugabe, julia Senyere, kenneth Kaunda, sim Nijoma Wow, what a group. So they were all on one picture. So for me, it would be part of that meeting to just hear what they talked about many, many years ago, because these are the leaders who changed their respective countries. So, yeah, to be in that space to hear what. If they were joking, was it all as serious or was it just? Yeah, what did they tell each other at that meeting? It's a picture. If you Google it Oliver Tambo, samora Michelle, mugabe, nyerere, kaunda Mujoma that picture comes up.

Speaker 1 36:34

Wow, as I was thinking about that question.

Speaker 2 36:37

That picture came to my head.

Speaker 1 36:39

And you know that whole thing around being inspired by that conversation of change agents, because that's what they were.

Speaker 2 36:45

They were absolutely In different contexts, but they made some impact, in fact, tremendous impact.

Speaker 1 36:52

And I think you and I are very lucky to live on a continent that has got so much incredible potential and also incredible potential for leaders to have an impact and to make a difference and to be curious about how do we continue to improve the good things that we've already started.

Speaker 2 37:13

And obviously what they did or the impact that they had in their respective countries was not just a minus shift, it was significant. So what significant thing can we do as Africans to move us as much as they moved their respective countries or changed or transformed their respective countries?

Speaker 1 37:38

And you know, and James, for me you are one of those people and because of the impact that you have, not just on the people around you, but even just on your family, and how that impact will have a ripple effect going forward in so many lives.

Speaker 2 37:54

I'm so, so blessed to do the work that I do because it gives me an opportunity to impact people, and impacting people for me is creating space to discover themselves, because you know, I cannot deposit something that you don't have. So people, they've got so much within themselves but sometimes they are not aware. So the fact that I'm able to just be in the space and help them rediscover themselves is such a blessing for me.

Speaker 1 38:28

That is absolutely amazing and, on that note, I think we're going to bring our conversation to a close. I couldn't have ended it any better.

Speaker 2 38:38

It is always a pleasure, isn't it James?

Speaker 1 38:40

I love our conversations. Thank you so much for the opportunity, so thank you for joining us today. It is always lovely to have conversations at matter. You can find the show notes for this episode and James and Paley's contact details on safety collaborationscom and it will be on the podcast page. Leave us a message and follow us on LinkedIn Safety Collaborations Karen Ovarie, James and Paley and me, Nula Gage. Sharing is caring, and James and I spoke a lot about caring today and care and being kind. If you can think of anyone who would get value from this fantastic conversation that we've had, please share the podcast, follow us on your favorite platform and leave us a review. Till next week, stay safe and stay well.