E069_The Essential Elements: How to Create a Culture of Safety

Today, we explore the critical importance of a culture of safety in the workplace, featuring insights from our guest, Alla Weinberg, author of "A Culture of Safety." 

Alla explains that without a culture of safety, humans literally can't think; operational IQ can drop by 50 points, severely impacting employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and overall revenue. 

She highlights the distinction between a safety culture that centres safety as the primary focus and a culture of safety that integrates safety within a broader organisational context.

The discussion examines the biological imperatives of feeling safe, illustrating how emotional and psychological safety is not just a nice-to-have but a fundamental requirement for effective teamwork and innovation. 

Alla's approach, grounded in neuroscience and positive psychology, reveals how intentional culture design can create environments where employees feel secure and supported.

We also address the challenges leaders face in integrating emotional intelligence into organisational culture and the transformative potential of prioritising human connection and well-being in the workplace.

By understanding and addressing employees' biological and emotional needs, organisations can develop a culture of safety that supports both individual well-being and collective success. 

As Alla Weinberg's insights reveal, the path to a truly safe workplace begins with intentionality and a deep commitment to human connection.

Thanks for listening!

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This episode was produced under Safety Collaborations Limited and now continues as part of Karin Ovari Limited. While we are not currently releasing new episodes, the entire library remains active, and the topics covered are just as relevant today as when they were first recorded.

To learn more about my current work in leadership and communication, visit karinovari.com and the leadership community, The Supervisors Hub.

Connect with us on LinkedIn:  Karin Ovari, Nuala Gage,

If you enjoyed this episode, please help us spread the word and leave a review on your preferred podcast player. 
 
 Stay Safe, Stay Well
The Safety Collaborators

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:08

Welcome to In Conversation with the Safety Collaborators. I am Karen. And I am Nuala, whether you're a safety professional, a leader or an individual committed to making a difference we invite you to join the discussion on creating a culture of safety and care, enabling your team and leaders to design a safer and more productive and collaborative world.

Speaker 2 0:36

Without a culture of safety, humans literally can't think. Operational IQ drops by 50 points. Can't think Operational IQ drops by 50 points and with it so does employee engagement, customer satisfaction and revenue. This quote by today's guest, ella Weinberg, resonated with us, and we are sure that you are as intrigued to learn more about it as we are.

Speaker 1 1:00

Today we are joined by Ella Weinberg, author of A Culture of Safety, building Environments when People Can Think, collaborate and Innovate. It's a fabulous little book. I know you can't see it out there listening to us, but it's on the screen and it's a guiding principle for much of the exploration around culture creation, leadership development and team building work that organizations need to grow and succeed. So Ella and I met by a mutual LinkedIn connection. Actually, for the laugh of me, I've just forgotten his name. What's his name? He's lovely.

Speaker 3 1:34

Jim Carbuck.

Speaker 1 1:35

Exactly From Miro. It is Miro, thank you, not Miro. I made that mistake. So he and I were on a sort of a change management program and discussion around the tools that we use, and he suggested that you and I meet, which we did last August, and this conversation Wow, time flies, to come to this point has taken that long. So are we going to run with what makes Alla Alla?

Speaker 3 2:11

Hi, I'm Alla Weinberg and I call myself a culture designer. My background is in product and service design design and I combine my skills in design with neuroscience and positive psychology, coaching skills, consulting skills to custom design cultures, and I found a lot of people that I work with think that culture is this abstract thing that we don't have any power over, that is just there and we can't do anything about it. And I show them that it can actually be intentionally designed. A lot of the design also has to happen with growing people as leaders, but really as human beings, being able to learn skills. I guess I wish we would have learned as children, but we're never taught mainly to do with, you know, emotional, relational, social intelligence.

Speaker 1 3:15

And that is, I think, where we came together on all this is that because, of course, we're also all about developing culture within organisations with a specific safety. And it's interesting when we talk about safety culture, we probably talk about it a little differently because of the very nature of the different organisations that we might work with. But underpinning that is that our other loves, which will come out in this.

Speaker 2 3:41

And I also just love the whole word intentional. I think that is pivotal and critical in everything we do, whether it is intentionally choosing our mood, intentionally choosing the way that we show up, what we do and how we do it, and intentionally designing our culture. Absolutely love that.

Speaker 1 3:59

So now that we've sort of brought up a little bit of that culture, I think the other thing I really what you said about what we don't learn through the education system and how can we make that change. I think it'll take quite a bit. I think there's quite a few people who are trying to make that change happen. But if we think about the emotional literacy, conversational intelligence, psychological safety, all of these things, if we could bring that into the conversation from when we're small, I wonder even if the familial home, which is a little organization in itself, if sometimes they wouldn't be maybe better than sometimes they are.

Speaker 3 4:38

I personally think it would change the world if people knew these skills from a young age. I think that the way that we would work together would look really dramatically different than the way we're working together right now.

Speaker 1 4:54

We had a conversation with Dan Newby, who founded something called the School of Emotions, and he's really trying to do a lot more work around emotional literacy let alone all the other elements, but just emotional literacy, because really, if you think about what we're talking about, it's our emotions that are at the bottom of all of it.

Speaker 3 5:10

Yes, 100% In many ways.

Speaker 1 5:13

So the work that he's doing out there, I think, is also really, really powerful and hopefully, maybe not in our lifetimes, but in the future, in that lovely scientific future that I dream of.

Speaker 1 5:29

So I mean we talk about culture from the perspective of safety, as do you. If you think about a culture of safety is the title of the book. And I was looking at the book again today. I was thinking we have often had this conversation or we hear the saying is it a culture of safety or is it a safety culture, and are they the same thing? What do you think?

Speaker 3 5:51

I think at a nuanced level, there are differences in my mind. So I think a safety culture centers safety, that that is the way everything is built around safety, and it makes sense in some high risk industries. And then a culture of safety is something a little bit more, I would feel like broad or envelops the culture. But maybe something else is centered for that organization, such as innovation or high quality or customer service. Something else is at the center of that and that makes sense for other industries, and I think we both work in different industries and so for some, having safety at the center is what's the most vital to create, whatever that organization is trying to do. What do you think?

Speaker 1 6:49

Well, we're actually in your camp. I'd say that for both of us. We often talk when we're with groups. We actually think that every organization has a safety culture of some sort. But is it a culture of safety? And that's when you're right, I think, and Nils will get your thoughts in a minute. But I think what you said there, that it's a different nuance. Like, if we talk about safety culture, particularly in our industry, yep, it's sort of centred around people going home safe and zero incidents and all that. I don't even believe that, but anyway, that type of thing. But really what we're talking about is organizational change and organizational culture. So therefore, what's underpinning people going home safely is that they feel safe enough to speak up or to put up their hand or to contribute or challenge the system, which is then where I think that then goes into that whole culture of safety rather than just safety culture. Because what is it really? It's the same as safety rather than just safety culture. Because what is it really? It's the same as the organization, any organizational culture.

Speaker 2 7:50

Nils, absolutely, and it's so built in. I think, ella, one of the things that I read mentioning around your book is that all humans, we have a biological need for safety. We want to be safe in what we're doing, we want to go home safely, we want to perform well. I haven't met anyone who will purposely go out and do something in a safety culture is the description of it. Sometimes a safety culture may be one where we accept shortcuts, where it's okay to feel intimidated, or that we can't speak up or that there's no point because nothing will change, whereas a culture of safety is going what am I doing? What could go wrong? How do I mitigate it and how do I keep everyone and what is around me safe? So it takes it back to that absolute need of we're going to be going home, the way that we arrived at work and then what happens in the brain, to almost have that incongruence sometimes of where we're going from. I want to be safe and yet I don't feel like I can be safe.

Speaker 3 9:10

And you bring up this really beautiful point which I think, over the years since I've written the book, I feel I've doubled down on which is we forget that, at the end of the day, we're all humans working together and humans are biological creatures. We tend to forget that as well, and we have a biological imperative to survive, and our physiology and our neurobiology is wired for our survival first, before anything else. And so that's why we have this imperative for safety, because if our body and our neurology is working to keep us safe, we don't have as much cognitive room or ability to do anything else, because our focus, our attention, everything that's going on inside of our body at that moment hormonally, chemically is towards our survival. And so, yes, we've advanced a lot in technology, you know, maybe in the last 100 years or so, but the way that we're wired as human beings hasn't changed in millions of years.

Speaker 3 10:27

And what I find really interesting, and why I do this work as a culture designer, is that the way we've set up modern ways of working aren't aligned with how people are wired to actually work together, live together, interact with each other, be with each other. It's artificial in many ways, and that's why the systems break down and they fail us because they're not actually made with the understanding that we're biological creatures at the end, working with internal neurological systems, our nervous systems, that are millions of years old. I think that's so intriguing. So, like the way you know, that we currently work isn't with somebody's idea, right, and we can trace it back to how this came about, but it was an intellectual idea and it wasn't rooted in really how human beings work, are, are wired, are meant to be honest, to by again biologically, to be working together, and so what? I think what's been proven out in the last at least 50 years? It doesn't work, that this idea is not really working for people we talk a bit about human factors and the system.

Speaker 1 12:07

As you say, it's not designed for work. Work is perceived versus work is designed, or something along those lines, and we're trying to. I mean, if we think about the modern way of working as we work, it's only just over 100 years old In the whole way that we've been working, I mean even going to an office or into a plant, this stuff isn't that old. We used to live much more work together, from the home, in the community, that type of things, and I think we see as much as all that.

Speaker 1 12:38

Technology has been very helpful in many ways and the idea that people. You know the industrial revolution was about trying to make everybody the same, an average, which of course there's no such thing. A we're not average and we're certainly not the same, Even if we live in the same house. We're all completely different and that doesn't get taken into consideration. I'm sorry, I just had this thought. Remember when we did that podcast about bras? I've just thought of a new one. It's like safety coaches are a little bit like underwire bras. Not sure which episode that was, but it was all support, Hidden support. So it just came to mind that we've got another situation here Once upon a time. They just decided that bras were all this size and that's it, Hello Right exactly, it just makes everybody bloody uncomfortable, right?

Speaker 1 13:27

So I think we do the same in the workplace. We put out these rules and assumptions around how people work, and all it does is make people uncomfortable how do we manage?

Speaker 3 13:36

that biggest idea that really has stepped but has been, I feel like that's been the most harmful to people is hierarchy, and that there's the managers or the leaders that are the thinkers, and then there's the people that are the doers. And again this goes back to the factory, where the factory workers make the things and the managers decide what they make and do. The strategy Still the same. We create those artificial power differentials between people. That's when we start to introduce environments where our body's like I'm not safe anymore, I can get fired, I can hurt myself, I can't speak up and let somebody higher up than me know that they're wrong. So then what's going to happen to me then? So that starts to create that environment, and then there's this belief behind it that for some reason, people can't work cooperatively, can't come up with ideas unless they have a certain title, can't self-manage. All of these, I think, again myths from the industrial age that continue to permeate how we work today.

Speaker 1 14:52

It just made me think about roles and responsibilities, because, even whether it's hierarchical or flat, people do have different and again, I've grown up in this environment so maybe my thinking is flawed because of it, but we do all have different responsibilities and needs at the same time.

Speaker 3 15:10

We all have different strengths and at the same time, we all have different strengths and so we contribute in the way that we can and where it's needed, and then, in this different sense, the leadership is more fluid. What kind of leadership is needed now for this moment and what we're trying to do, versus assuming that the same leader at the top right.

Speaker 1 15:32

Agree yeah.

Speaker 3 15:32

Is always, always has the right answer for everything.

Speaker 2 15:38

And a good leader doesn't do that, and isn't that just such a scary amount of responsibility when you have that title?

Speaker 1 15:44

as leader.

Speaker 2 15:44

You have to be all-knowing, all-doing, all-inclusive. It's just actually setting people up for failure and I think that adds to that fear, because that then flows down from I'm supposed to be being this all-seeing, all-knowing, almost on the pin person, whereas actually I'm just as flawed as every single other person on my team.

Speaker 1 16:10

And just as flawed as every single other person on my team and just as scared. There is something in that where we've got to also make it safe for the leaders to be that way. There's always this sort of conversation around well, they need to make it safe for them, but actually everybody has to make it safe for each other, and I'm talking emotionally and, yeah, well, emotionally, fundamentally so, yeah, well, one of the titles of your book is the nature of fear, and I think this is just such a huge part of the conversation we're having at the moment, so say more about that, about the nature of fear.

Speaker 3 16:48

Again, if we think of ourselves as biological creatures, our fear is what starts or activates different neurological processes in us, such as our fight or flight response, our freeze response, and it's such a core emotion to human beings. We all feel it pretty much all the time and I think we're just so accustomed to feeling it we don't even know that we're actually experiencing it, but we go through life. I think most of us go through life really kind of wrestling with fear and having fear often be the driver in our life. Either we're running away from something or we're afraid something's going to happen. So we're going to do something else, or we take an action because we're afraid of something. Something will happen if we don't.

Speaker 3 17:50

A lot of times we're not pulled by vision, by something greater than ourselves, although there are folks that have gotten to that place. A lot of times we're driven by fear. And what happens in organizations is then again, if we're creating cultures by default meaning we're not being intentional about it kind of coming back to the beginning, what happens is, very naturally, culture of fear starts to get created, and for me, the opposite of safety is in danger, it's fear. It's this emotion of fear Because, neurologically, when we feel safe, we feel connected to each other, to the people we're working with. When we feel fear, we actually can no longer feel emotionally feel that connection. We start to self-protect, we start to go into protection modes and then that's where a lot of things start to fall apart and where, honestly, bad behavior starts to creep in, not because people are being malicious, but because people are scared, and a lot of that's just not even in folks' conscious awareness truly.

Speaker 2 19:05

I had the exact example of that this week. So my brother was unfortunately in hospital in one of the government hospitals in South Africa and as I was leaving, there was a massive commotion. There were security guards everywhere. What had happened is that the lift had got stuck. There were a whole lot of patients and visitors and a little girl with a broken arm and a car stuck in the lift. And when the lift finally opened, this anger came out from these really big men and I mean that's why they got all the security in there, because it looked like it had the potential to turn violent. And I actually looked at my mom and I said they are terrified, but it's coming out in anger because they don't actually know how to process this emotion of fear that they probably don't want to feel. And it was just so visible and we mentioned that whole thing of this is when you stop thinking and you literally your IQ just drops by 50 points. Wow, look what fear does.

Speaker 3 20:06

Yeah, and also there are some gender norms in play here where men aren't allowed to show fear, but they're allowed to show anger. So then it's okay to be angry and to display that, when really what's going on for me is I got stuck in an elevator and that was scary.

Speaker 2 20:24

It was a part of me that wanted to go and give them a hug, but I just thought that might make it worse.

Speaker 3 20:32

They probably weren't open to that in that moment. Here is I'm going to die. That truly is at the, at the very root of it, and that's how our brain processes. Inputs are from stimuli from our environment. There's a chance that I'm going to die. And so these men went into fight mode. Right, because that's what our again, our bodies are wired to do. They do it unconsciously, they don't do it without permission. We don't think about oh, I'm going to get angry now.

Speaker 1 21:03

It all starts in the gut first. It all starts here. It doesn't start there.

Speaker 3 21:08

It doesn't start there, but there's so much emphasis in our organizations about the head right, like the head's the most important. Yeah, it's not, though it doesn't control really what happens for us, how we feel and then ultimately how we think. None of that comes from the head.

Speaker 1 21:28

And then what we say Right and how. What we say Right.

Speaker 3 21:32

And how we treat other people.

Speaker 1 21:34

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 21:37

And when you think of designing a safety culture, because when fear takes over and we're not understanding where that's coming from or what that's happening, can be seen in ways that are perhaps some quite negative connotations, whereas actually fear can keep us safe, it can be a healthy emotion and we're dealing with it. So how do we help people shift when we're wanting to intentionally design culture from fear into creating the safe environment?

Speaker 3 22:11

That's really the key to designing a culture of safety is that you're designing the way that people relate to each other, the way that people interact with each other, so that we can help each other move from fear back to safety, back to a feeling of connectedness.

Speaker 3 22:32

And so it's having conversations and teaching people how to have conversations about emotions that we don't normally have in business, that may not seem professional but are so important and so necessary because, if we can help, it's actually co-regulation. This is how we're meant to work together is we help each other regulate our nervous system so that we can move from a fight or flight response, from fear, to feeling safe and connected. But we do that through conversation, through feeling like I can talk to someone about how I'm feeling, what I'm going through, even if I can't name it. I can talk to someone and I'm not expected to push through and just get the work done, because the more I push through, the more I suppress, the more fear I have. It doesn't go away. It's not like you're suppressing it and it suddenly goes away. It just builds right, suppressing it and it suddenly goes away.

Speaker 2 23:35

The more you know it's like a little monster.

Speaker 3 23:36

It just builds right and then it creates burnout, health issues. I know a lot of executives and leaders having serious health issues because they have no one to talk to and no one to help them come back up. But if we do have a culture where we can have these conversations, we can actually help people move really quickly through that feeling Feel the fear. We're not again suppressing the fear. Feel the fear. Move back to safety and connection so much quicker than if we ignore it and it just keeps building pressure and adding pressure on us.

Speaker 1 24:12

If it was just so easy, if it was.

Speaker 3 24:17

Not easy. If it was Not easy, not easy.

Prioritizing Human Connection in Organizations

Speaker 1 24:20

No, no. So from the list of things that we gave you, was there something before we move sort of a little bit further towards the end here? But there's some other things that you wanted to share, because I know that we'd sort of preempted a couple of questions and I think we've gone through them. I know that we sort of preempted a couple of questions.

Speaker 2 24:37

I think we've gone through them. What do you think One of my questions for Ella is in the work that you've done, what are some? Of the biggest challenges that you've seen in the work of the physical, emotional and psychological safety.

Speaker 3 24:48

I think the biggest challenge is getting buy-in from people that this is part of work, that these emotional skills which is what we're really talking about at the end of the day are for the benefit of work, for the benefit of how we work together. They're not an extra, they're not an oh. When we have time, we'll learn how to do this. They're not a oh. This is going to slow down productivity, right? The challenge is this really big mindset shift of how we've been thinking about work, which is very much industrial era still. You know, productivity, efficiency, effectiveness, performance-based and realizing that we have to make like work has to work for human beings, and that includes our emotions. Human beings aren't robots, so we can't continually produce more and more and more forever. We just it's just not possible. We're living beings. It's just not possible that we're gonna ebb and flow, that sometimes we'll have a great moment in our life and we can do great work, and sometimes we'll have a tough moment in our life.

Speaker 3 26:01

And that's just part of living and that's just part of being alive. And so getting folks to understand and value that and invest in building these skills has been really tough, because the mindset is still well, what's the ROI? How does this make me money? But this is our lives. Like we spend more time at work and with the people we work with than the people we choose to live, you know, to marry, to live our life with, with our family. This is our life. This is where we're spending our lives. This is our life. This is where we're spending our lives, and so I think folks are getting there.

Speaker 2 26:42

I still think there's a ways to go, and you know kind of the evolution of thinking about work and how people work together. Karen and I battle with this so much as well. Is, if people can't touch it, they can't feel it, they can't put it in a report, they can't tick a box it's full, feel it.

Speaker 2 26:57

They can't put it in a report, they can't. Yeah, exactly, a box it's full. But why must we invest our time in this? Yes, and yet, with the clients that we work with, when they do invest the time in it, the benefits are just amazing and that's something we come back to so regularly. How do we measure this, what we call our fairy dust? Because the impact that it has on the teams, on the workplace and intentionally designing that culture is a big wow factor.

Speaker 3 27:23

Yeah, and I would say I mean even asking to measure. It is still trying to put it in this old box model, right?

Speaker 1 27:32

Yep, completely Yep, for sure, yeah, well, I think sometimes we've got a kind of for us we have to project us to get in there, we have to just talk the lingo.

Speaker 3 27:44

I understand yeah yeah yeah, yeah, I find it a challenge. I personally find this a challenge because they'll feel the difference. That's the thing, and I don't know how to quantify that necessarily.

Speaker 1 28:01

Well, it comes back to those feelings again, to those emotions that it's okay to have. Whatever we're feeling, yeah, and I suspect until we let people be okay with that, this challenge will be there. It doesn't matter where we are on the scale of corporate ladder or otherwise and this is fundamental to being human beings it doesn't matter what country we live in or where we're from. In our experience and all the traveling and the working different countries or whatever, it's the same it's the same because we're human.

Speaker 2 28:34

Yeah, the robots are coming, but they're not here yet no, but hopefully they will allow us to be even more human well, if we get that right, that's what it should do, but that's based on our current ways of thinking.

Speaker 2 28:49

So yeah, you know that's an evolution I love the whole linking of creating that intentional culture and understanding emotions because, Ella, I think you will love the conversation that we had with Dan Newby.

Speaker 2 29:03

It just connects so well. And I'm just thinking of my experience over the last couple of weeks with all the chaos that's been going on in my life and I'm going. I think we need to go and dig a little bit deeper into the emotions that I have been. Go and dig a little bit deeper into the emotions that I have been feeling and how that has played out and the impact and the repercussions it's actually had just in my personal and our work life. Because if I can understand myself better and my emotions, I can then, when I'm back in the field, hopefully have a little bit more empathy and a bit more nuance to understanding and seeing the emotions of what's going on those around me and then bringing that into the coaching conversations and saying, right, where are you at, what are you feeling? So you did mention coaching earlier. Do you bring that conversation into your coaching conversations whilst you're helping companies design the culture?

Speaker 3 29:57

A hundred percent.

Speaker 2 29:59

I do.

Speaker 3 29:59

I coach the leaders of these organizations or these groups one-on-one, specifically because they often don't have the skills to recognize what am I feeling, what are my reactive tendencies when I have these feelings, and can I also hear the emotions and feel the emotions than again if my team's feeling fear that's driving me to make perhaps bad decisions in the business, and so coaching them like so directly to be able to create those environments that they can hold, that they can feel, that they can hear those emotions and use that as information but also guide their teams through maybe a tough moment in the business right which all businesses reach, all businesses have, and actually help the team come closer together as a result, rather than be more scared of each other as a result.

Speaker 2 31:18

It sounds like such a good foundational building block.

Speaker 3 31:22

Yes, I feel that that's really missing, just like in leadership training and how leaders are brought up or mentored. That piece they don't get.

Speaker 1 31:33

Yeah, no, because it is often not there it's not there so there's some good programs out there that are more steeped in ontology, and when you think about ontological coaching, it talks about language, the emotion, the body and, and very much for leadership. One doesn't work without the other and so often we think, well, we'll go on a diet and that'll solve the problem. But unless you take the body with you on that journey, it's not going to solve the problem. So it they have to be in there together.

Speaker 2 32:05

So understanding those feelings is so key, it's so key yeah, if you had one wish for organizations and there was a magic fairy that could come and just sprinkle her dust and wake up the next morning, and it would be there. What would that wish?

Speaker 3 32:26

I wish organizations would prioritize our humanness first, the humanness of their workers, their employees and their customers.

Speaker 3 32:40

And humanness means that we all struggle as human beings. We really all struggle very similar things we're all scared, we all get sick, we all have hopes, we all have dreams, we all want to be safe at the end of the day. And humanness also means more than the head, that we have our whole body as a place of information for us, that our feelings, our physical sensations, our health, physically and mentally all of that is taken into account and almost I feel like going back to how we lived in tribes and looking at that. And how can we translate that into the ways that we work but, most importantly, relate to each other. And I think, at the end of the day, if we center humanness, then we're centering love, and that's really the thing that's, for me, is missing in organizations. We're not machines that are just outputting things. We're human beings and we're really put on this earth to connect and love each other, and when we do, then we feel safe. That's what actually, at the end of the day, has us feel safe that just gave me goosebumps.

Speaker 3 34:06

Yeah, just by the way that was. I did.

Speaker 2 34:09

I used the L word you did, and I love that, and I love that, and it's not just l, just the l word, it's just, it's that whole connectedness, it's the yes, the whole connectedness, not just the little tiny piece that I want you to see of me oh, yeah, yeah I think it's brilliant. Thank you for sharing that thank you, honey.

Speaker 1 34:32

That's a nice note to say thank you on. I'm so glad that we've finally got to have this conversation. So, to our listeners, thank you for joining us, and there'll be some links to Ala's book and to her site as well, so feel free to reach out.

Speaker 2 34:52

Thank you for joining us today. It is always lovely to have conversations that matter To learn more about creating a culture of safety and care. Please visit our website safetycollaborationscom to access our show notes, resources and guides. Leave us a message via the message us section on the show notes page and we'll get back to you.

Speaker 1 35:14

You can also join our community on social media by following us on our LinkedIn pages Safety Collaborations Karen Avari and Noorla Gage and on our new Safety Collaborations social channels YouTube, facebook and Instagram. Our handle Safety Collaborations is much the same Sharing is caring. Follow us on your favourite podcast platform. Leave us a five-star review. It would be awesome. Doing these things helps us to grow and share our collective conversations. Till next time stay safe and stay well.