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EURAXESS Smart Talks
Tips and perspectives on the gender gap in academia - Part 1
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What is the actual situation of women in academia? What are the European policies and the reality in academia? For answers to these questions and practical tips, listen to today's EURAXESS Smart Talks and learn more from experts and two unique female Ph.D. stories.
In part one of this episode, we will hear tips and insights from two fascinating interviews with Ms. Oriana Bertucci, a career expert, and Dr. Giovanna Debernardi who obtained a PhD in international private Law in parallel to certification as a Judge.
In part two of this episode, we will meet Prof. Tali Mass, from Israel, a 2020 recipient of the prestigious ERC grant, and Dr. Anne Pepin, a Senior Policy Officer in the Gender Sector of the European Commission's DG Research and Innovation. These episodes cover recent developments in EU policy, measures toward closing the gender gap, and practical tips for work-life balance.
Keywords: gender, work-life balance, talents, science, career, European researchers, ERC, gender policy, gender gap, women in academia, female researchers.
Euraxis Smart Talks for Talents, your personal guide to research, careers, innovation, and entrepreneurship. Hi, I'm Darje, a senior expert of the Euroxys National Contact Point in Latvia.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Jovan, a teaching and research assistant from Serbia, and you're listening to ERAX Smart Talks for Talents. Backed by European Commission and 43 European countries, it supports research mobility and career development while enhancing scientific collaboration between Europe and the world.
SPEAKER_03The title of today's episode is Tips and Perspectives on the Gender Gap in Academia. This is the first part of a two-part episode. According to the Commission's communication, in 2021, ERA noted that women remain significantly underrepresented within Europe's research community, making up just 33.4% of researchers, 24% of professors, and 26% of university leaders.
SPEAKER_01However, Cheryl Sandberg, the chief operating officer of Facebook, said in the future there will be no female leaders. There will just be leaders. What is the current situation in the academic world? Let us start smart and explore this topic together.
SPEAKER_03Our first guest is Ms. Oriana Bertucci, who is an active participant in the Euro Access Hubs project. The project focuses on three semantic areas: talent management in academia, a research career outside academia, and scientific startup entrepreneurship. Oriana is involved in an activity that places a special focus on gender.
SPEAKER_01Ms. Bertucci is also a research and development project manager at the University of Liege with 15 years of experience as a higher education professional. Oriana works on the University of Liege's strategic plan focusing on career and leadership development for researchers. She offers guidance to PhD candidates and postdoctoral fellows through workshop facilitation and training modules. She has experience in academic career development in Canada, the United States, and now Europe.
SPEAKER_03Why is it important for Euraxis to focus on the area of gender?
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me today. Well, you know, research tells us that while female enrollment in higher education has tripled or nearly tripled since 1995, there's still a huge gender gap when it comes to equal outcomes. When it comes to leadership and academic positions, when it comes to pay, research, and publications. And so I think it's important for your access to focus on this area of gender while recognizing and understanding the local context in which we work. We need to be able to critically evaluate where we are in our institutions or in our communities. And then we need to see how we can develop and improve the working conditions for those that we are supporting, for those that are in our institutions. One of the benefits of your access, and one of the reasons this hub is so important, is that we really are aiming to benefit from the experiences and the expertise of different countries and different institutional practices. But when you're in your institution, when you're at the local level and you're on the ground, it can be really hard to know where to start. And it can be hard to start from nothing. So having these resources to be all in one place, benefiting from the experts, the initiatives that exist at the European level and across Europe assures the support that is needed at the local level. And so I think we need to address these attitudes, address these questions, and we need to find a way to better support those in our communities at the local level and benefit from the European level and the access to the resources.
SPEAKER_01As far as I know and understand, you do a lot of mentoring for young researchers in particular in a local community at your university. Have you or one of your female mentees felt gender bias in developing their careers? If the answer is yes, how was this handled?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, like I said, using the example of a female researcher who's looking to apply for a large funding grant, the question always comes up if they've had children, how do I address this in my CV? Is this considered a gap? And so I think those are important questions that each female researcher needs to address individually and then even collectively. So finding support among female researchers to have for those perhaps who have been successful in a funding call to say, here's how I addressed it. Each discipline, each field is a little bit different. And so learning and benefiting from the experience of others. I think the other thing that's important to consider in this is that each institution, each country, each community has a different local context. And so when we talk about individuals who have experienced that bias, maybe it's being passed up for a promotion, maybe it's being passed up for a conference, uh, maybe, you know, there's a variety of different scenarios that can exist. It's understanding, okay, what do we learn from that? Is that something inherent in the environment and in the culture that we're in? Or is that maybe is that just a one-off? Is it something that we can do something to change? Do we need to be more visible? Often female researchers, uh, when we I do a lot of coaching, so preparing them for interviews or for uh grant applications, and they will say, I don't always feel comfortable talking about myself. I don't wanna, you know, I don't want to brag. Um, but sometimes it's actually very important to understand what our strengths are, to be able to talk about what we have accomplished and and be able to create some visibility. I think often researchers are very good about uh talking about and giving visibility to their research, but not necessarily to the process that has allowed them to be a successful researcher. And so one of the things of my job is about is to support these researchers and specifically female researchers in these experiences, but also to connect them to other groups of women, of successful uh researchers, because it's important that as a community you feel supported, that you have people that you can go to, people who have had those experiences that you can learn from what has worked, what hasn't worked. And I think we when we look forward, when we we we see successful institutions and successful communities, one of the strengths is that they have strong mentorship programs, they have strong units of collaboration, they have a way for female researchers to to gather regularly, to have a safe space where they can talk about the challenges that they have faced and they can rely on each other.
SPEAKER_03We all are different, you know. Some people are very shy, or some people don't know how to provide this information, but it is really useful to share.
SPEAKER_00And generally, as a researcher, uh, is to think about building your own identity and your own brand. So if there is a social media platform, for example, that you use, uh perhaps in your field it's Twitter, perhaps it's LinkedIn, you know, whatever uh research gate, whatever it is in your discipline where there is a lot of discussion, a lot of visibility, I think it's very important to think about the brand, who you are, and what you put out there. So not just about your research, but also about the other aspects that interest you. So maybe you are in uh environmental law, but you have a passion for uh urban gardening. And so while that might be a little bit related to the policies of environmental law, you can bring in your enthusiasm and your interest in urban gardening, demonstrating that you are this well-rounded, holistic, interesting person. Um, and so I think that understanding who you are, being able to have a brand, being comfortable with that brand, and sharing that uh is is an important quality in research in the short and in the long term.
SPEAKER_03Please tell me, I'm very eager to know actually, if the women researcher comes to you and asks, uh, how should I put uh if I have children, if I've been raising many children or just one, or I'm planning actually uh to have a child, what do you uh what is your tip for her? To raise this question or just skip it uh during the interview?
SPEAKER_00Wait to see if it's a question. And so sometimes, you know, somebody will say, Oh, I see a gap in your CV. How would you know what happened or what were you doing? And what I often like to encourage them to think about is that uh a lot of female researchers uh continue to do research even while they're raising children. So they're never really fully off.
SPEAKER_03That's true.
SPEAKER_00That's true, right? And so it's important to highlight that look, I'm multitasked. I still had publications while raising my children. So when you think about a promotion, you think about a female researcher to head up a large research unit, you know they can multitask. You know they're still going to be an effective and accomplished researcher. And so I think it's really important for me to encourage them to see this as a positive and as a strength and not as a negative that, oh, I took time off, I took it away from my career. Because often uh while it can be a lot to balance, it also can add a lot to them personally, which in turn makes them more motivated in their research to do well.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it is very important what you are telling, but you know, sometimes it's so hard to make them share this information. We all are different, you know. Some people are very shy, or some people don't know how to provide this information, but it is really useful to share.
SPEAKER_00But maybe the reason that we're shy to share is because we have created a culture where that is not talked about.
SPEAKER_03So, in addition to your career development experience in Europe, you have extensive experience in both Canada and the US. What are the main differences in gender equality?
SPEAKER_00And I think that's probably one of the biggest differences that I have seen. Uh, the way in which in academia there is uh a comfort level or an ease about talking about your family situation or what are the hiring practices in an institution. But I do think overall that there is an environment uh in North America where the the conversation around gender equality when it comes to pay, when it comes to promotion, when it comes to hiring practices, you know, uh it's really the norm now to have disclaimers on job postings. And so I think that that culture of discussion and openness is much more prevalent and much more important.
SPEAKER_03So overall the situation is better there.
SPEAKER_00I think there's also a difference between having a formal course. So I think, I mean, I I know there are institutions that offer these as courses, courses for credit. But this is also just an example of something that they would do as an extra curricular activity, right? So to be involved in a student organization, you participate in this training. And the young students do this on a voluntary basis to be involved. And so I I think I'm sure that there are institutions in Europe that are doing this. I think my experience has just been it's not widespread. And if they're also offering these types of maybe volunteer or extracurricular trainings, it's later on in the university career, it's not as early. And so I think that for me, that's one of the big differences because having that conversation at 18 versus 28 or 38.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, of course. When you are a person that already is shaped for this kind of information, you know.
SPEAKER_01In conclusion, what message can you share with our listeners?
SPEAKER_00Of course. So the first thing I would just say is speak up. Don't be afraid to speak up, to ask for the resources that you need, for the funding that you need. Uh, do not be afraid to share the good things that you have done, your successes, and your accomplishments. Uh, as a as a community, we want to celebrate that and we want to recognize that. And too often I think female researchers uh do not advocate for themselves as not enough. The second thing is support other female researchers and support those in your community. If you have benefited uh from a certain experience, perhaps you are in a position to make decisions, uh, to have an influence, support those who are coming after you. Pay it forward. Even if that road was hard for you, it's so important that we continue to pave the way so that others can benefit after we are gone. And then finally, don't be afraid to ask for something. Uh for example, if you're interested in a topic and you want to speak at a conference, uh, you want to be on a different committee within your institution, maybe you want to participate in a in a your access network podcast, and you have an idea, you know, speak up and share and say, I have some ideas, I'd like to I'd like to contribute. Those would be my three maybe tips or suggestions.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Ariana. That was really interesting, and you gave us a lot to think about. Your access Smart Talks for Talents. Your personal guide to research careers, innovation, and entrepreneurship. Now that we have a general picture of what's happening in the field, let's take a closer look at an especially interesting talent. Giovanna De Bernardi is a talented researcher who chose to keep all options open. In parallel to obtaining a PhD in international private law within the context of a joint Italy-France university program, she studied for certification as a judge.
SPEAKER_01Giovanna has taught civil law and contract law at the University of Niche, Sophia Antipos, and is also the author and co-author of different French-Italian publications. In 2019, Giovanna was appointed as a civil judge and she is now working at the court of Termini Imerese Palermo.
SPEAKER_03So, Giovanna, Mrs. Giovanna, or should we call you your honor? We are happy to have you with us today. Let's start from the very beginning. Why did you choose to study international law?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, thanks to everyone for this opportunity to take part to your project. Uh when I was a child, I had the opportunity to study in a French school. And the fact of studying in a French school helped me to grow up with a very, I can say, broad mind, which means that I had the opportunity to study with children that uh came to all the other parts of the world, which uh made me very interested in everything happened outside my my town, outside my country. So that's why when I started the university and I decided to study law, I tried to specialize in everything which was international or European or uh comparative to the Italian law and the Italian legal system. And while I was writing my thesis, it was just to finish the university, so I wasn't still a PhD student, I was just a normal university student, but right there I realized that I really liked it, and this is why once I finished uh the university, I uh I tried to attend a PhD because my career was I finished my university, I started a PhD, and while I was writing my uh PhD thesis, I prepared the exam to become a judge. So it was parallel.
SPEAKER_03Why? It's not a very common situation, you know.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not very common, but I decided to do everything at the same time because I told to myself that uh during my PhD, that's true that on one side, of course, I had to work for my PhD because I had to do researches. Sometimes also uh I had the opportunity to teach in some classes, but I had also other times, and I decided to spend the other times that I didn't use to write my PhD to study to become a judge because uh I had two two big interests. On one side, the researches and uh the fact of teaching, but on the other side, also I was fascinated by uh by the work of judging. And I was lucky because I I I tried to pass the judge exam at the end of my PhD. It was a sort of challenge because I like challenges.
SPEAKER_01That sounds very challenging as you stated, there were a lot of challenges. Uh, in your in your opinion, what stands out as the biggest challenge you had to overcome in your career?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh the fact of uh becoming a judge during my PhD, to my mind, was my biggest challenge. Sometimes also you have the possibility to teach during your PhD career, and the fact of teaching is not something so so evident.
SPEAKER_01There are certainly some benefits that came with that. So, did you get a chance to use the knowledge and the skills you learned as a researcher afterwards in your career as a judge?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I think yes, because when you are a judge, first you have to write, you have to write a decision, and when you write a tea, when you prepare a PhD thesis, you have to write, and so you learn how to write, how to uh to sum up and so uh reasoning. I uh think that the fact of having done a PhD and having uh taught in some classes during the PhD and after the PhD uh helped me during uh the hearings because when you have two, three, four, sometimes even ten people in front of you for the hearings is uh more or less like in a class. And uh here again the fact of um uh having done an experience as uh professor uh at the university helped me to manage the hearings. So I sound crazy, yes. No, even because sometimes it's easier to manage a class of 10 students than a hearing with 10 parties.
SPEAKER_03So your true tutors were women, as I understand.
SPEAKER_02Yes, trans and Italy? They both were women, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh so that's why I have the next question. Have you or one of your colleagues ever experienced gender inequality or have experienced good examples of gender equality, for example, at university or in your work as a judge?
SPEAKER_02Uh well, uh concerning my tutor, um I can say that uh as regards my French tutor, I think that she experienced a gender equality. Because um she while she was a professor, and I say a real professor at the university, she uh became a judge at the Supreme Court of France, the Court de Cassation. And so she had a really brilliant career, uh both at the university and uh in in the judicial system, and independently of the fact that she was uh a woman. So I think that um in this type of person um proof that you you can have a brilliant career even if you are not a man, even if you are a woman. On the other side, my uh Italian tutors, I think that uh she
SPEAKER_01experience sometimes uh cases of uh gender inequality because to my mind she was really brilliant uh she's still a brilliant professor but sometimes she she was uh I I don't like the name of um discriminate but I think that in some cases especially for um some research project the fact of being a woman didn't help her so much to to get some some fund to uh to obtain uh some also some some classes some project in the University of Turin so in the case of my tutor French that there was a gender equality in the case of my Italian tutor there was in some cases hypothesis of uh gender inequality and what about you probably I was lucky because during all my period at the university uh before as a university student then as a PhD student and then also as a PhD uh professor or contract professor I didn't experience gender inequality I I worked with a lot of uh colleagues who were men and I I didn't have the impress I haven't I hadn't the impression of being uh discriminated or the only thing that I noticed and unfortunately but unfortunately it's not a problem that I notice only in my court or in my career but in general is that maybe at the same level like for example at judges there are more women than men than men or also as professor there are more uh women professor women than professor men but if you look at the key position at the executive position there are there are all uh all men you are not talking about the situation in Italy yes no i'm talking about the situation in Italy yes no no i'm talking in in italy but in front in France more or less is the same uh you said that uh your uh tutors your mentors uh had two different experiences concerning gender inequality what do you think was the reason is it society are the laws to blame different laws in each country or is it the local environment in which they are working is it uh the responsibility of the university itself and the local collective which works to them uh or is that is it uh their personal responsibility to uh fight for their rights what what's the main issue that differs and that uh make it made it more difficult for your uh mentor in uh france to experience gender equality when compared to your mentor in Italy whom to blame who is to blame yes excellent Gary yeah well uh I think that uh the well the the local influence was uh what contributed to to gender inequality on one side and gender equality on the other side independently of being a woman or a man if I want to get a upper level of uh of career I have to work hard so it's not uh a question of gender but of first of all a question of of merit a quest a question of of how you work it's a question of qualification of competencies of of experience not of gender in conclusion uh when you see that there is a certain uh gender inequality in the workplace from what you said and from what I understood uh what message can you share with our listeners can you give us a tip for young researchers young talents tips for women in academia in general well um maybe uh it can be evident but I think well my my first tip is to to to give uh to PhD students especially women but in general PhD student is to uh to go ahead even in sometimes uh you you think that there are problems that uh you will never get it just go ahead uh you have to be very patient you have to find because everything you want to get something you have to find you have to believe in what you are doing uh and um as I also said during the um the the the career day organized by University of Turin in November one thing that I really suggest is to keep open a lot of paths a lot of uh doors if uh if I can say wow Giovanna that was fascinating your career path was certainly different than the most and is an inspiration to us all thank you this episode was prepared by hosts Dariaksunova and Jovan Arangelovich audio engineer Pavl Dashkovich outreach manager Dina Semerit Production Manager Moria Rika editor Peter Peer and Miracle Fan This episode is published under the Creative Commons CP by license until next time
