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EURAXESS Smart Talks
Tips and perspectives on the gender gap in academia - Part 2
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What is the actual situation of women in academia? What are the European policies and the reality in academia? For answers to these questions and practical tips, listen to today's EURAXESS Smart Talks and learn more from experts and two unique female Ph.D. stories.
In part one of this episode, we will hear tips and insights from two fascinating interviews with Ms. Oriana Bertucci, a career expert, and Dr. Giovanna Debernardi who obtained a PhD in international private Law in parallel to certification as a Judge.
In part two of this episode, we will meet Prof. Tali Mass, from Israel, a 2020 recipient of the prestigious ERC grant, and Dr. Anne Pepin, a Senior Policy Officer in the Gender Sector of the European Commission's DG Research and Innovation. These episodes covered recent developments in EU policy, measures toward closing the gender gap, and practical tips for work-life balance.
Keywords: gender, work-life balance, talents, science, career, European researchers, ERC, gender policy, gender gap, women in academia, female researchers.
Euroxas Smart Talks for Talents. Your personal guide to research careers, innovation, and entrepreneurship. Hi, I'm Darje, a senior expert of the EuroAxxis National Contact Point in Latvia.
SPEAKER_01And Dani Oven, a teaching and research assistant from Serbia, and you're listening to Euraxis Smart Talks.
SPEAKER_02Euro Access is a unique pan-European initiative of the European Research Area, providing information and assistance services to researchers regardless of their career stage.
SPEAKER_01Backed by the European Commission and 43 European countries, it supports research mobility and career development while enhancing scientific collaboration between Europe and the world.
SPEAKER_02The title of today's episode is Tips and Perspectives on the Gender Gap in Academia. This is the second part of a two-part episode.
SPEAKER_01If you missed part one, it is waiting for you on the Eurasis portal and on your podcast application.
SPEAKER_02According to European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, too many of us have been told that we have to choose between being a mother and having a career. As a mother of seven and as president of the commission, I beg to differ. I know the obstacles that women face, so we must strive to create the right conditions for all women to enjoy equal access to the job markets and to raise their children.
SPEAKER_01What is the current situation in the academic world? In part one of this episode, we heard tips and insights from fascinating interviews with Miss Oriana Bertucci, a career expert, and Dr. Giovanna de Bernardi who obtained a PhD in international private law in parallel to certification as a judge. Let us talk smart and continue to explore this topic together.
SPEAKER_02The ERC grant is one of the most prestigious grants for researchers in the European research area. We are proud to host Professor Tali Mas from Israel, a 2020 recipient of this grant for her pioneering work. Professor Mas received her PhD from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, focusing on coral physiology.
SPEAKER_01She then did a postdoctoral fellowship on coral biomineralization at Rogers University, USA. In 2014, she started her own laboratory at the University of Haifa, where she continues studying the basic mechanisms responsible for calcium carbonate precipitation in calcifying organisms, specifically corals. Professor Mass, thank you for your time. It's a privilege to be talking to you today. Please tell us a little about your career choices, why you chose this particular career, and a little about your career path to being awarded the ERC, the European Research Council grant.
SPEAKER_03Good morning, and thank you for inviting me to join this conversation. I think I started to be interested in corals when I first dived and put my head underwater and saw this amazing structure underwater. The color, the beauty, all the all the environment, the fish and everything was amazing. And I was wondering how these creatures actually build this amazing structure. And when I started studying and went into undergrad and then graduate studies, I start to understand that these creatures actually start with a tiny little polyp that is maybe one centimeter in diameter. And this little creature builds this amazing structure of the reefs that we can see even from space. However, these organisms and these creatures are very sensitive, and the prediction is that those organisms will suffer with the from increased environmental or human affect, the CO2 and global warming, which will affect both temperature and the acidification or acidity of the sea. And because those creatures build rocks, it's basically type of a limestone, it's calcium carbonate. The prediction is that they will be seriously affected by these scenarios. And that led me to the question and also to this ERC grant. Try to understand how those creatures actually build this mineral because there was a bit of a big knowledge gap of how this organism actually created. They build these rocks from this tiny with this tiny organism that sits in one place and build a rock. And without have without having this knowledge, we will not be able to understand or to predict the effect of climate change scenario and extreme environment on those creatures. And that's what led me to the uh to write this proposal, the ELC proposal, trying to evaluate and to evaluate and to understand how those creatures actually start this mineral production, this money massive mineral production. And with that, we continue to more and more and more to explore how this basic mechanism is affected by extreme environments conditions.
SPEAKER_02You know, usually when we are talking about the ERC grantees, uh for those who just started to explore this possibility, uh tell us please. Usually people are very concerned. They think that they have to do their work as usual, and then in addition to this work, they need to produce this proposal for the grant. How you coped, uh how you found, I don't know, time, uh your possibilities to write this, to produce, to develop this uh proposal for this grant.
SPEAKER_03You're you're correct because this is very time consuming. Those grants, the ELC grants to write was very challenging and also to present, as you said, it was very challenging and time consuming. I usually try to start way before the deadline so I will not be very stressed, and just keep it as part of the routine work. So if uh I can have a day deducted for writing, while the other days I can teach and be with my students. And I took very long time in advance to start and develop the grant. And also when I prepared myself for the presentation of the grant, it was also it was it was a long process, which was I I admit it took a lot, a lot of my time, both from the lab and from uh from my student. Uh but I managed to at least to keep part of the time with them and concentrate in uh in the grant writing and presenting it. I think it's time, it's uh more of time management. And one of the things that you women usually are better in is time management. Definitely if you are a mother and you need to try and adjust yourself between motherhood, kids, life at the work, and everything. So you have to be very, very uh precise and very, very organized. I think otherwise it's not going to work.
SPEAKER_02Very effective in every your minute, yes.
SPEAKER_01And uh when mentioning women in academia, uh, have you experienced any gender bias as a woman researcher during your career?
SPEAKER_03I have to admit that I didn't, because I believe that I could do everything the same as everyone else, and I ignore anything that stands in my in my way. So I didn't I didn't feel anything. Uh I I produce and I uh I proved myself that I can do everything the same as everything exactly the same as as a male scientist, and sometimes even better, so I didn't feel it. And I also I also in a department I also one of the scientists in a department that is mainly woman department, we are a unique environment in the academia. Our department is 80% woman, so most of our PIs are women, and we are running it very, very well. And during uh during during the academic throughout the scientific life and uh and mainly because I'm also a diver and a lot of my research conduct underwater, and as women and pregnancies, and you have and you cannot work under the water, I always find myself in I also always find some challenges during this uh work. But if you are, as I said, if you conduct everything in advance, organize your time accordingly, you will be able to do everything in the right way. So if if I knew that I will not be able to dive for nine months, I found someone to help me and to conduct the dives when I couldn't do it when I did my my graduate studies. So I didn't feel any anything that uh stopped me. And also in Israel, I think one of uh of the things, and this is slightly different to some other places, that uh we start our academic life start a little bit later than everyone else, due to military service and everything. People are expected that we during our academic life we will become mothers and kids and everything, so it's not so out of the blue. I know that in other places it's a bit more tricky than what uh we sometimes feel over here.
SPEAKER_01It's uh great to hear that you had a positive experience and that you didn't experience uh experience any barriers. And you mentioned uh that your department was predominantly uh made up uh of female researchers and uh that the situation in Israel, that the culture regarding uh research doesn't uh promote any kind of bias in uh in the in the in terms of uh gender. Uh do you think that uh this uh combination of uh elements uh together with your tactic to uh plan uh everything in your life to uh have a plan A, a plan B, a plan C to be prepared for any situation brought up uh to uh the experience of not not having any uh barriers being put before you? And uh did you, because you told us that you traveled a lot to do your experiments, you visited the Germany, France, the United States uh while you were there, did you see that the situation was different, or is it the same as it is for you in Israel?
SPEAKER_03I think that in Israel, one of the things is really that people are more mature and it's been during your studies, it's been motherhood and pregnancy is not something out of the blue. However, given that, still quite a lot of female researchers will not continue to the next level. And I think it's still part of you know of family obligation and the idea that people need to go out for a postdoc out of Israel and sometimes relocate the whole family to a new place. And this is difficult. And I see a lot of female students, graduate students, that finished that they finished a very successful career of studies and we have their PhD that are not able to travel overseas for a postdoc. And this is something that really stops them from getting a faculty position later on in Israel. And this is a big problem that I mentioned before that my husband was very supportive and he was willing to stop his career and go over with me for a postdoc in the US, which is not very trivial for a lot of people around, also everywhere in the world, not only in Israel. Because someone needs to put his spouse in front of his career in front of him for a certain period of time. It's true for both sides, also between male and female, but still pro it still seems more problematic for women to take the decision and to take the leads than men. And like in the US, the maternity leave laws are really bad compared to anything in definitely in Europe and also over here. I had my third kid over when I did my postdoc, basically without any maternity leave. But I have a supportive uh PI. Uh uh my PI was very positive and he was supportive, and for him it was fine as long as work is done, that you know, yeah, you can juggle between everything. And uh but I know that other people are not that flexible and they are very stressed with uh woman, women in early ages and you know, and family uh uh plans and so on. When we decide to move to the US and uh and my husband stopped his career for four years, he established a new path for himself during the four years that we were in the US. He also enjoyed being part of the time with the kids in the house and being a full-time father and not full-time in his career. So so I think the balance between the partners is really important, which is not always trivial, unfortunately. When I started my lab and I had the young uh young kids as well during when we just returned from the US, the ability to be at home in part of the time and you know be with them when they didn't mean maybe work at during the night when they you know when everyone is asleep is definitely the flexibility of the academia work. On the other hand, you still need to prove your productivity. Definitely if you are you have an ERC grant, you know, you get a huge amount of money for science. And you need to be very productive. So there is a lot of you know there is a lot of balance, and as I said, and uh the balance is everywhere, is between family, work, and the results, and having students and a big lab to work with you and to have a to manage your time accordingly to all that. My husband is full-time in the house as well with me. So we're sharing all the household responsibility, including the kids. And one of the things that I really try to do when they were young is to try to keep the work when I work. At that time I did my master PhD and postdoc to keep the hours that I have to be in the office as an office time. I would just be from eight to five or something like this in the office, and uh whatever, it would be underwater on the on the bench, and just be there and work. And once I'm with the kids, I was completely with the kids and I slept during the night. Uh when I became a professor at the academia, that was a bit more tricky because then I had to suddenly it's not only my work, it's I need to write grants and I need to do this, and the kids uh need to be. But this is one of the reasons why I try to stretch everything. If I know that I have a deadline to write something within in five months, I'll start it five months in advance. I will not wait, even though that I know that maybe I could write it within a week, I'll take my time and I'll write a you know, I'll write one page every whenever I have the time.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to uh make a conclusion. Uh do you have any message which you would like to send to our listeners? Uh, can you give us some uh tips for young researchers, talents, women in academia in general?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think that uh my main take-home message for women in the academia is just that you can do everything. You are the same, you can do everything, nothing should stop you, and uh and believe in yourself and try to find your balance, otherwise, it's not working.
SPEAKER_01Professor Talimas, thank you very much. It was very interesting to talk to you.
SPEAKER_02It was great hearing about some recent activities and the unique career path of a female researcher. Your access Smart Talks for Talents, your personal guide to research careers, innovation, and entrepreneurship. Now we would like to move on to the vision of the EU Commission. What has been done so far to close the gender gap for female researchers? How do policy officers see the future and what are they doing to make it happen? We are honored to host Dr. Anne Pepin today. Anne is a senior policy officer in the gender sector of the European Commission's DG Research and Innovation.
SPEAKER_01Anne is a senior researcher holding a bachelor's in physics, an engineering degree, and a PhD in electronics from the University of Paris from 2012 to June of 2017. Anne was director of mission for the place of women at the French National Center for Scientific Research, a strategic unit in charge of designing, coordinating, and assisting all actions aimed at fostering gender equality within the organization.
SPEAKER_02So Anne, thank you so much. On the gender equality front, there are changes in Europe. Effective this year, all higher education and research organizations will be required to have a gender equality plan in place to receive research funding from the European Commission. So why is gender equality so important?
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks a lot for inviting me. And uh, well, first of all, gender equality is important everywhere throughout society, and this is enshrined in the European treaties as a core value, which should be translated uh mainstreamed into all EU activities. And gender equality is very high on the agenda of Ursula von der Leyen, the current president of the European Commission, who set the achievement of a union of equality as one, as her political priorities for her mandate. But we're not there yet. And particularly in the field of research and innovation, and as our she figures publication uh tells us, and and indeed you gave some key numbers, and I can add that if you look at full professors, 26% women only, and if it's in engineering and technology, it's only 18%. So gender equality is important as a matter of fairness, equal opportunities, equal treatment in careers, in access to leadership and decision making, and because we need all talents on board, and particularly in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, so the STEM fields. And this is also important because women and more diverse teams bring unique perspectives to research and scientific conversation, and this adds to the collective intelligence of a research team, and this enhances creativity and excellence. And also importantly, scientific research is more accurate, more reproducible, and therefore of better quality when you consider sex and gender as potential variables. So, really, when the integration of the what we call the gender dimension into the design and the contents of research and innovation is taken into account. And this also brings more societal relevance to research and innovation. And really the goal here, and why it's important, it's to change the European research and innovation system, to make working environments in higher education, research, innovation across Europe more gender equal, more inclusive, safer for everybody, and to improve research and innovation quality.
SPEAKER_02It's a mandatory right now. And uh, of course, all the universities are interested to participate in this uh great uh project, uh Horizon Europe. So, how you will uh see whether the university is really implementing it, how you will evaluate uh its implementation and uh development of this uh plan, of course.
SPEAKER_00Maybe define what we are asking through the eligibility criterion in Horizon Europe. We have examples, and now we really wanted to change gear and request some basic building blocks of activities and structures that be in place to advance on gender equality. And for this, we have consulted widely for over a year, experts, uh, some of our projects that had been funded for implementing gender equality plans. So we define some key building blocks that everybody uh, well, there is a consensus on on these being really fundamental um parts that should be taken into account. So that's why we have four mandatory requirements that are more process related. The organization have to publish their gender equality plan on their website. They also have to disseminate it and make it known in the organization. It has to be endorsed by the highest level. And we know that top leadership uh commitment is key to the success of the implementation of these plans. You need to allocate resources, financial, human resources, maybe have a specific structure, uh have a team, hopefully gender balanced with representation through the different categories of staff, of students if you're a teaching institution. And then that's why we recommend five thematic content-related areas that usually organizations have to address. And the first one is really the organizational culture, work-life balance issues, the other one is really. Looking at uh recruitment and career progression and gender balance in decision making, still very much an issue, the inclusion of sex and gender analysis. So, what we have called as an umbrella term, the integration of the gender dimension into research content and also teaching content, supporting the implementation of measures to address gender-based violence, including sexual harassment. So these last two are often less addressed by organization, but they are key to successful gender equality plans. Basically, these are some of the most pressing uh issues to be addressed. And so for Horizon Europe, we ask that organizations self-declare by filling a questionnaire and say if they have the four mandatory requirements, which of the areas they cover. And if they do fill the four mandatory requirements, then they are compliant with the gender equality plan requirement. If they don't have it at the moment of the submission of their proposal, they're a part of, this is okay. There is an effective tolerance until when the proposal they're in is selected and they are into the grant agreement preparation phase. There, all the higher education, the research organization, and the public bodies in the from member state and associated countries, this does not apply to third countries yet. They will have to have the compliant gender equality plan in place, otherwise, they will not benefit from funding and will not be able to participate in the projects. And we will do compliance checks in the duration of the program and quite a significant number. But of course, it should not be only a tick bock exercise. That's why we have provided guidance, we're providing trainings, and we see we have testimonies of the dynamics that are going on right now across Europe.
SPEAKER_01Why are gender equality plans especially important for early career female researchers?
SPEAKER_00We encourage institutions to consult all levels of staff and students and involve them in the teams that will be setting up the plans and implementing the gender equality plan. So this is really an opportunity for the early career researchers and women researchers in particular to have access to the data, to voice their concerns, and to be part of the process. There are also other things that can help. And EuroXis is one, of course, and the future ERA Talent Platform, which will be put into place uh soon and will follow up on the current uh EuroXis um framework, will have a specific focus on fostering gender equality in in talent recognition, and including through targeted support for women researchers and and also trying to address mobility-related uh dual career and work-life balance issues. So there is more coming up. And uh and of course the Maris Lodovska Curie actions have for a long time, and they're a well-known funding scheme uh for early career researchers, and and they have put gender equality really at the core of their objectives. And and it will be even further improved under Horizon Europe with more flexibility about uh work-life balance issues, uh, family allowances that you can avail of even during your project, and uh even a more inclusive understanding of what families are, including same-sex uh families. So there's really more support that that is aimed at early career researchers. And I can even say that this year, the European Year of Youth, this is a specific focus, of course.
SPEAKER_01That's great to know. Are there gaps in the presently adopted gender equality plans between uh what is stated on paper and what is being done in the field?
SPEAKER_00It's a bit early to say that. And as I said, we do not ask the organizations to upload their gender equality plan. It's trust-based at this stage. They have to declare that they do have it on their webpage, and of course, in the compliance checks, we will be checking that. We are currently devising the approach to actually check the compliance and actually make sure that what's on the paper does match what's implemented.
SPEAKER_02So, as a woman who has completed a doctoral degree, did you feel that there was some inequality?
SPEAKER_00As a woman in physics, I was a minority. That was pretty clear early on.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00But I did not suffer from explicit discrimination. And actually, I was quite supported on the reverse in my career by both women and men. And I've had women head of laboratories, and I had uh women researchers that taught me nanotechnology and nanofabrication in my engineering school, and that also, as a role model, prompted me into actually changing fields and actually trying to ask to do my PhD in her lab. But as is also well known by sociologists and gender scholars, there is a cumulative effect of things. So it's it's some small differences in the appreciation of your work. Just being underrepresented also can have an influence on the dynamics. Uh, what also I think helped me, and and it's also a common pattern among some women researchers, my dad is a physicist. Uh so and and I only have a sister, and and we've always always been supported and fulfilling our aspiration of going into science. That was uh never an issue, and actually, my parents were quite feminists. And I had an aunt who was a gender sociologist, so you can see that there was like a surrounding that was um quite um supportive.
SPEAKER_02Okay, if not everyone, of course, are so lucky to have such a kind of family supportive, so uh otherwise they need this support from the university.
SPEAKER_00Yes, indeed. From the university, but there are also associations, there are also women scientists' platforms, and I'm thinking of the the European Platform for Women Scientists, which initially was funded through the European Commission and is has a life of its own and have a strong voice into putting forward uh women scientists, but there are also professional associations at national level, and and the networking can really help as well. There was a campaign, um, social media campaign, and there's a new one called She You Leads, where uh we have started featuring young women uh researchers, more particularly in the STEM fields, and this is something that is really close to our commissioners' heart. So also one of the key actions that we want to target uh in the framework of the new European research area that has been adopted recently. And we already have a project funded under uh Horizon 2020, which is called Unisafe, which is looking at this, looking at national level existing programs, looking at uh really doing a mapping of existing practices across a large number of member states and associated countries, looking at organization, even doing a prevalence survey, so an anonymous survey, and and there uh early career researchers, women, can can anonymously uh detail and and what has what is happening to them. And the idea, of course, is is to come up with recommendations and really change the system.
SPEAKER_01So uh coming back to policy, uh, what would you consider EU's main achievement so far concerning gender equality?
SPEAKER_00First of all, already setting gender equality and gender mainstreaming in research as a priority for the previous European research area framework that was defined for a communication in 2012, and translating that into setting gender as a cross-cutting issue in Horizon 2020, and the figures have improved a little bit, but still too slow. And that's why we hope that the strengthened provisions for gender equality introduced in Horizon Europe and the new era framework that has been proposed by the Commission in September 2020 and that has been uh supported by member states, further defined, and we have a new era policy agenda, and there's a specific action on gender equality and inclusiveness. So I guess this has been important, and really the what we're doing now, and also setting the integration of the gender dimension into the content of research innovation as a requirement by default. There's not only the gender equality plan that is an eligibility criteria. When you you respond to a uh call uh a topic, you have to look at this integration of a sex and gender analysis, unless the topic says, okay, in this case it's not important. And of course, it will be the case in very technical or theoretical topics.
SPEAKER_01What world do you picture concerning gender equality in academia in 10 or 20 years?
SPEAKER_00Hopefully that they feel included and and yeah, that it's more gender equal, more collaboration, more democratic, more equal academic system, and more productive because when you feel better, you also work better.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Uh so in conclusion, what message can you share with our listeners?
SPEAKER_00Well, we need you. Europe needs you, science needs you. So we need more gender balanced teams. Uh, we need men to be on board with this, and it's actually increasingly the case, uh, particularly young men that find it very important to address work-life balance issues, for example. So be confident, be really seize opportunities. There are platforms, there are tools, there's your access again, that is really a key tool. Uh, and and don't hesitate to ask. And at commission level, uh, we'll continue uh to work to change this system and and help you fulfill your career aspirations.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Anne, for your valuable overview. The information you have shared with us and the perspective of the commission. It is worth repeating the four requirements which you emphasized: public documents, dedicated resources, data collection, and monitoring and training and capacity building.
SPEAKER_01You have given us a lot to think about, and we learned a lot about the challenges of gender equality from you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to the Euro Access Smart Talks podcast.
SPEAKER_01We hope you enjoyed these two episodes on gender in academia.
SPEAKER_02These episodes covered recent uh developments in EU policy, measures toward closing the gender gap, and practical tips for work-life balance. Fortunately, our guests did not personally experience gender discrimination and were able to develop successful careers in different European locations. It is indeed a challenge to achieve a good balance, but these researchers proved that it is possible with proper planning, support, and training.
SPEAKER_01You want to hear more? In the next episode we will focus on careers beyond academia, including success stories and practical tips. For more information on your access, visit the Euraxis portal. You'll find more episodes of the Euraxis Smart Talks Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. This episode was prepared by hosts Daria Aksanova and Jovan Arangelovic, audio engineer Pavle Drashkovich, Outreach Manager Dina Samerit, Production Manager Moria Rija, editors Isir Pir and Miroslav Trajanovich.
SPEAKER_02This episode is published under the Creative Commons CC by license. Until next time,
