EURAXESS Smart Talks
The EURAXESS Smart Talks podcast for talents is your personal guide to Research Careers, Innovation, and Entrepreneurship.
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EURAXESS Smart Talks
From Science to Startup: Inside Information - Part 2
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Is entrepreneurship a feasible career option for researchers? How can EURAXESS help young researchers develop a career in entrepreneurship? For answers to these questions and practical tips, listen to today's EURAXESS Smart Talks and learn more from experts and Ph.Ds. who made this transition successfully.
In part one of this episode, we will hear insights and tips for young talents from Prof. Milan Zdravkovic, leader of the EURAXESS Hubs project entrepreneurship initiative. We will also hear Vaido Mikheim, a participant in the EURAXESS Hubs start-up tour who will share his perspectives on the Estonian start-up ecosystem. In part two of this episode, we will hear the inspiring success story of Nobel prize winner Prof. Dan Shechtman, who will share his tips and insights as an experienced mentor in entrepreneurship, at the prestigious Israel Institute of Technology, the Technion. These episodes cover challenges researchers face in the transition from academia to entrepreneurship.
Keywords: entrepreneurship, talents, science, career, startup, start-up ecosystem, business, academia-industry interface, European researchers.
Euroxas Smart Talks for Talents, your personal guide to research careers, innovation, and entrepreneurship. Hi, I'm Daria, a senior expert of the Euroxys National Contact Point in Latvia.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Jovan, a teaching and research assistant from Serbia, and you're listening to Euraxis Smart Talks.
SPEAKER_00Eurexis is a unique pan-European initiative of the European Research Area, providing information and assistance services to researchers regardless of their career stage.
SPEAKER_01Backed by the European Commission and 43 European countries, it supports research mobility and career development while enhancing scientific collaboration between Europe and the world. If you missed part one, it is waiting for you on the Euraxis portal and on your podcast application.
SPEAKER_00In part one of this episode, we heard insights and tips learned from Professor Milan Zdravkovi on the entrepreneurship initiative for young researchers within the Euraxis Hubs project. We also heard Vida Mikheim, a participant in the Hubs startup tour, who shared his perspectives on the Estonian startup ecosystem.
SPEAKER_01Are you interested in a career entrepreneurship? Let us talk smart and continue to explore this topic together. Today we have the honor to host Nobel laureate Dan Schechtmann, who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2011. Professor Schechtmann discovered quasi crystals. Today, his discovery is used for a variety of applications, beginning with steel armor and ending with nonstick funny pens. Professor Schechtman, who joined the Technion faculty in 1975, developed and taught technological entrepreneurship for decades, which is one of the most popular courses on campus.
SPEAKER_00Why is technological entrepreneurship more and more popular today? What can we do to encourage young scientists? How hard is it to succeed in this field?
SPEAKER_01Let us start smart with the best person to explain. Professor Shatman, welcome. It is an absolute privilege to be talking to you today. Let us start from the very beginning. How old were you when you first got interested in science? And when did you know that you would like to make a career in science?
SPEAKER_02Thank you. That's a very good question. I had several periods in my life regarding science. When I was seven years old, my grandfather bought me a wonderful present. It was a magnifying glass. And I was walking through the fields of my neighborhood. Now it's a big city, but at that time there were fields, and looking at everything small, flowers, insects, everything small. And I fell in love with the world of small things. Later on, fast forward when I was doing my master's degree at the Technion in Haifa in Israel, they bought the first transmission electromicroscope. And I became an expert on using transmission electromicroscopy, usually what is called diffraction contrast, and became an expert in it to the extent that I could teach classes for post for doctorate students and postdoc students. But going back to your question, I did not want to become a scientist. I wanted to become an engineer. And this was based on a book that I read when I was young. The book is by Jules Verne, you may know him. One of the books he wrote is called Mystery Island. In the book, there is a group of five men stranded on an island. The island has everything, but no people, and they create modern life. Modern life at the time of Jules Verne. And the leader was an engineer, and that engineer could do and make everything. And I wanted to be like him. So after my military service in Israel, which is mandatory, I registered to the Technion, which is a school for engineers and scientists in Haifa, Israel. They accepted me and I studied mechanical engineering. Four years later, I was a proud graduate of the Technion Mechanical Engineering with a certificate. And that year there was a big recession in Israel, and I could not find a job. By that time I was already married and had some financial responsibility. And I said, Well, I will continue to do my master's degree, receive some salary as a teaching assistant, TA, and in two years after my master's degree, I will find a job. And I did find a job. But during these two years, I fell in love with science and decided that I will not be a mechanical engineer, I want to be a scientist, and continued for my PhD in material science. Later on, I went for a postdoc in the United States for three years and looked for a position back in Israel. And again at the techno, they offered me a position of lecturer, and I immediately took the position. And in 1975, I became a faculty. Over the years, I uh continued to go through the ranks and became a distinguished professor and retired. So, this is to answer you when I wanted to become a scientist. It was during the period of my master's degree that I did because I could not find a job. Hey, when you don't find a job, is it good or bad?
SPEAKER_00Well, it depends. We would definitely want to hear how hard it is to be a scientist.
SPEAKER_02Okay, let me give you a philosophical answer. If you love something, it is never hard to do it. How hard is it to be married? Well, if you love somebody, it's wonderful. If you don't, then it's not wonderful. How hard is it to be a scientist? I enjoyed doing science. It was a great pleasure for me, and I did not use students to help me. Yes, I I guided students, but I never asked them to help me with transmission electromicroscopy. And and I was like a postdoc. I prepared my specimens alone, but all by myself, because I was doing a very good job. And I enjoyed every minute of it. Let me just illustrate it to you. What does it mean? When I was working on transmission electromicroscopy, the microscopes were not as modern as today. Today you see the picture in the microscope on a screen. But those days we did not have screens. You had to look at a phosphorus screen within the microscope through binoculars. And you had in order to do that, the room had to be very, very dark. So I sat in a very dark room for many hours and enjoyed every minute of it. I enjoyed every minute of it. Looking at what's happening with materials, trying to understand what's going on, and so on and so forth. Sheer pleasure. So for me, science is great joy.
SPEAKER_00But uh, during those days when you had such a strong opposition, like Linus Pauling, who told that there are no quasi-crystals, only quasi-scientists. Uh, and but it's a pressure, really, for a scientist, no? I understand that with your positive attitude, probably it wasn't so bad, but still, how you cope with this?
SPEAKER_02Well, I am not you, and I am not afraid, and I will explain to you why. I knew that Professor Lime Spauling, he was really a great scientist, one of the greatest chemists of the 20th century. I knew he was wrong. So here you are going to fight a battle, and before you go on the arena, you know you will win. Wonderful, right? You know that you will win before getting there. Well, basically, he was wrong. I I will not explain to you the basis of his mistake, but I understood it very well. Uh yes, it was uh let's say that with Vannus Pauling, I had three periods. Period one was when he just started with his attacks, and we had a lot of communication. I had a lot of communication with him. Everything was very polite, mostly in writing. We wrote to each other many, many times. And I sent him materials and he sent me his comments, and we met twice. Once we met in a in a dinner in a conference of the American Physical Society when they gave me an award. And the second time I came to his home in Palo Alto, California, and gave him a lecture of one hour to one person. He was one person in the audience. And I gave him the whole story. And at the end he said, uh, Dr. Sherman, I don't know how you do that. He did not understand electromicroscopy. And I said, Professor Pauling, if you ever agree with me, please don't keep it a secret. He said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I must I must say that we were always very polite to each other. There was no, uh of course, what you said uh is is indeed he said on stages. But one on one, he was always very polite, and so was so was I. So the arguments between us were purely scientific. But he did not scare me at all. So in the beginning, it was sort of a surprise that this great uh two-time noble lawyers is against me. Then I started to enjoy it. And I enjoyed it because many people said, Wow, what's going on there? Pauling and Shechman are fighting there. That's it. The Pauling and Shechmann are fighting there. I liked it. And then at the end, there's a third person. I felt sorry for him. I mean, he he was really making a fool of himself, and he could not publish papers anymore. There were his papers were rejected, and so.
SPEAKER_01When you were 41, you made your discovery, which resulted in you receiving the Nobel Prize. Uh, what led up to that moment?
SPEAKER_02I can tell you the following. Uh, it was in the afternoon, and and I know every detail of that afternoon because I have a logbook, and in the logbook, every action that I do on the microscope is written down. So I know it was the afternoon, I know what I did that morning, totally different thing. So this is after lunch, I go back to the microscope, put a specimen that I have prepared, one of a series of specimens, and immediately I find something interesting. I do make I do a diffraction pattern, and that diffraction pattern had tenfold rotational symmetry, which is impossible in periodic crystals, but it was clearly a crystal because it gave very sharp diffraction. So here is a crystal with forbidden symmetry. Turns out later on that it was fivefold, but I could not tell from the first sight. And I wrote in my logbook tenfold, the three question marks. And then I said, okay, I think I know what it is. It is probably a twinned structure. Oh, anyway, twins in crystals are two uh different crystals that meet together in a special angle. Not any angle, very special angle. These are called twins. And I said, okay, I have seen it before, this tenfold rotation symmetry. It does not come with from one crystal, it comes from many crystals over uh one on the on the other. I said, okay, I have to find the twins, record them, record means take a picture of them and forget it. It's not interesting. And I spent the whole afternoon looking for the twins, and in my logbook, you see all the experiments that I did to find the twins. I could not find them. There were no twins there. It was one crystal with tenfold rotational symmetry. This is the day of the afternoon of the discovery.
SPEAKER_01While you have a lot of experience in the field of science, you also have a lot of experience in the field of entrepreneurship. Uh you created a course in technological entrepreneurship at Technion more than 30 years ago. So, way before uh technological entrepreneurship was popular, before other people were speaking about it, before governments were funding uh this kind of startup. Uh, how and why did you develop this course?
SPEAKER_02When I was a student at the Technion studying mechanical engineering, the spirit of the technology told us in many ways, you will be so good that when you graduate, everybody will want to hire you. And I said, Well, that's wonderful, but what if you want to open my own technology business? The word startup did not exist. My own technology business, why don't you teach me how to open my own technology business? So I went to some professors who could teach that, who could teach the law, who could teach the IP, intellectual property, who could teach some social effects, who could teach finances. I went to them and I said, why don't you teach me how to open my own technology business? No, no, no, no. At the technology, we teach principles, we don't teach how-to courses. Okay, this is when I was young. Later on, in 1986, to be exact, I became a full professor. And then I said, okay, now I can fulfill my old dream and learn from the experts how to open my own business. In order for me to do that, I opened the course and I publicized it. And indeed, it was the largest technique course in its history. I uh ordered the largest hall of the technium. At the time it had 600 seats, and I opened the class for 600 students, hoping that 50 will arrive. But I thought, well, maybe. In the first day of the course, 800 students arrived. 600 that were registered for an academic point, and 200 that didn't register because they could not, just to listen. And they were standing in the back and they were sitting on the stairs. That was amazing. And so this was the opening. Now I cannot teach technological entrepreneurship, but I know the people who could teach technological entrepreneurship, and I invited invited lecturers. So the first invited lecturers were the people who really established large companies in Israel. And they started from zero. What we call now a startup, that word did not exist at the time, but I created the technology business and started from zero. And I invited them, and they came willingly to speak to my students. Each class was one hour of uh speech, and the students were fascinated. So, and these were the they were they started a startup, but now they are the tycoons, each one of them worth many billions of dollars. Now, so at least in 1986, after the three or so four of them arrived and gave talks to my class, anybody that I called and told him or her that I want him or her to give one hour to the class, they asked, yeah, what is this class? Who was there already? And he said, Well, this he was there, and he oh, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm coming. Because if these people were there, yes, I want to be on that list. This class from 1986, I conducted it for 30 years, 30 years, and everybody I called for to give a talk came. Not only did they come and they received nothing from it, except lunch with me, if they want, and and a book. I gave them a book as a present. Not only did they come willing me, they asked me if I need money for the class, they wanted to donate to money for the class, and I said, I don't, I don't need any money for the class. It's an academic course, I don't need anything. Finally, at the end, one of one of them, one of the speakers died, and he left me $15,000 in his will for the class, and he's still there. So 20 years later, I didn't use any of it. So it's like a donation to the technium. Anyway, this was fascinating, fascinating period. And I was student number one in all these lectures, so I learned how to open a startup.
SPEAKER_00Uh is it correct if I say that it somehow also was matchmaking event? They could find each other, probably have a good cooperation afterwards.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you are absolutely right. Israel is unique in many ways, but one of the ways is it there's no ranking in Israel. Usually this person is not more important than this person. Uh and and it's because let me give you an example why it is like that. You know, um everybody serves the military. So one is a commander, and then the other one is a food soldier, okay? So who is more important? The commander. Okay, fine. And then they go back to serial to be civilized, and the food student and the food soldier is a professor, and and the commander is a student. So who is more important? So and and these these are these are real events, it's it's really slow. So why am I saying that? Because all the lecturers, all the speakers in my class, see after the class, students jump on them to the stage, they want to talk to them. And they give their cards and say, call me, call me. Yes, I'd like to talk to you, call me. And many, many, many call them and they are open and answer. They feel that this is a wonderful contribution for the future of the country. You know, they they do it for patriotic reasons. That uh, hey, I am helping establishing a startup nation. And they did. Imagine that you're in the American university and you you call uh Elon Musk uh to give to give one hour in your class. I doubt that he will come, but if he will come, he will not just stand there and give his card and say to every student, call me, call me, call me. It doesn't work like that. But in my country, it does work like that.
SPEAKER_01While listening to you, I come to realize that a lot of ideas that are presently active in the Eurasis Hub project, which is trying to better uh the European researching community in terms of your entrepreneurship, talent, and many other things, have previously, uh historically existed in Israel on Technion, and that you started uh this entrepreneurial path in a sense that we know it today. There are probably a lot of other people who have also started it in different countries. But uh, since you were one of the first to initiate uh something like this, could you give us a definition about how you see technological entrepreneurship? And do scientists and researchers have overlapping goals with entrepreneurs? Is this something that's similar?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yes. And in my country, this is a wonderful uh example. There are many examples of uh of scientists who became entrepreneurs, many, many examples who became entrepreneurs, and uh they are they are both very good scientists and and open very profitable startups. Uh some of them some of them became uh unicorns. You know what unicorn is? Unicorn is a private company that worth more than a billion dollars. Not public company, private company, worth more than a billion, and there are many in Israel. And many of them are scientists. And they probably stopped doing science at some point, but maybe not. Maybe some of them still continue. So, yes, scientists with good ideas could become entrepreneurs. And in my country, the spirit of entrepreneurship is thriving, it it is bubbling, and and it's based on um several effects that build on one another, build upon each other. I can I can mention it to to describe the Israeli environment on this. Number one, Israelis are well connected to each other. Uh because they were in high school together, in university together, or in the military unit together. Or live in the neighborhood and people talk. There's a lot of communication. This is number one. Number two, we have very good universities. We educate very good technologists and scientists. So in Israel, the level of academia is quite high and pretty good. On top of them, there is an entrepreneurial spirit. Israelis are very active. And in Israel, you can call everybody and talk to him or her. I have a little project now that I do with a colleague of mine, and he would call the office of the minister and say, I want to talk to the minister. When can we talk? Things like this. So and it's possible. Number three, over time, many companies in the world, large companies, the largest companies in the world, establish RD centers in Israel. RD research and development centers in Israel. They develop their products in Israel. First was, I think, Intel. Intel products are designed in Haifa by Technion graduates. It's as simple as that. They produce some in Israel, Intel, but most of it in Vietnam, China. But the brains are in Israel. But not only, Intel was first, but now every every company that we may name, IBM, Microsoft, Google, technological companies from Europe, car companies, all the car companies, they all have development centers in Israel. So what happens now? Number the bad side of it is that they suck the brains to their development centers. This means higher salaries. Another aspect is the military service. You know, military service today is people sitting in front of screens and designing and so on. And so very many young people in the forefront of the cyber war, but cyber war is also used for civilian is cyber war and cyber defense. If you know how to defend military assets from enemies, you know how to defend the bank from people who want to penetrate the system on the cyber world. So it's all engaged together. And so there are many, many young people, many, tens of thousands of them, who emerge from the military service with fantastic knowledge. They can open startups, and many of them do.
SPEAKER_00Tell us please, what could be the message for young researchers who are listening to our podcast? What should they do, or what uh knowledge should they obtain? What they can do right now, what could be your message to them?
SPEAKER_02We start with what does it take to become a good scientist? My advice to young people who want to become good scientists is the following. In order to succeed in science, you have to know a lot about all sciences. It means you have to know enough mathematics, enough computer science, enough physics, enough chemistry, enough thermodynamics, enough biology. You have to know, you don't have to be an expert in everything, but you have to understand all sciences. But on top of that, find something that you like and become an expert in it. Whatever you want. Find something that you like, but try to be in that something number one. Number one in your class, number one in your school, number one in your city, number one in the world. And today it is possible because information is available everywhere. When I was young, I read the encyclopedia. My knowledge came from encyclopedia. I have I have all the encyclopedias that that one could have in Hebrew and Encyclopedia Britannica. Volumes upon volumes. Nowadays, who looks at that? Nowadays, everything is on the internet. So today it is very easy to become an expert in something. Also, professors are approachable. You you can knock on the door of a professor and ask for, and for when, hey professor, when can I talk to you? I'm very interested in thermodynamics, and I want to consult with you on some aspect of thermodynamics. When can we do that? All right, you can do that today. And it's easy to do, and the professor usually are happy to find something who is interested in the subject. So become an expert in something you like, but try to be number one. And I tell the students if you don't like science, fine. You want to play saxophone, great, but try to be number one. Whatever you do, try to be number one in whatever you want. Find something that you like. Not necessarily science. This is about science. Now, about technological entrepreneurship. In order to succeed in technological entrepreneurship, you need the proper environment. It is not simple to become an entrepreneur in some countries, and I will not mention now the names of these countries, but the bureaucracy is such that if you do not bribe somebody, there is no chance that you can start something. So, how to succeed as an entrepreneur? Several questions. Number one, you have to know what you want to make, hardware, software, whatever. You have to know the market, you have to know the competition, you have to know the direction in which the market is going, you have to know the price range, how much does it cost? If you have a product and you want to sell it, how much will you charge for it? $20 per unit? Ah, but in uh in China they make it for $5. So how can you compete? Okay, things like that. So you have to know the market, you have to know the price range. You have to know the law. Okay, you want to abide by the law, you have to fill in forms and do all this. And you have to know how to find partners. That's very important. Not, you know, people are very friendly and they go to the beach together, three guys and say, hey, let's open a company. Wonderful, wonderful. But they don't fit together because all three of them know the same thing. No. You want one who knows the technology, another one that knows finances, another one that knows the law, another one who is uh the locomotive. Okay. You have to create a good combination of people. Not necessarily your good friends or your good partners. So there are many issues in the lectures that are given in my class. The class continues, by the way, today. It's much smaller, and and I don't run it anymore. But a colleague of mine, a very good friend of mine, runs it, continues with it. Uh, and each of these lectures give hints from the experience of people who made it, who made it big time. And they tell the students do this and don't do that. On every subject. And uh and every lecture is a different subject, different focus, different subject. So there are many aspects to it, and uh I think that I would recommend if you don't have classes like this, like technological entrepreneurship. I recommend that a young man or woman who wants to start a business should consult with an experienced entrepreneur. Yeah, call him or her and say, hey, you know, I want to be a young entrepreneur. Will you talk to me? I want to learn from you. And I hope they will say yes, why not? Let's have let's have coffee.
SPEAKER_00So even in the age of technology, communication between people is much more important, even probably than it was some time ago. We still need to communicate.
SPEAKER_02Let me mention one thing about communication between among people. Um, in order to succeed in a technology business or a startup, it is not enough to be an expert in the field. You have to have emotional intelligence, you have to know how to talk to people, how to approach people. If you want positive response, emotional intelligence is also very important. If you look at people that succeeded in the world of technology and all of startups, most of them, if not all, have very high emotional intelligence. They knew how to approach people and look for money. Hey, you want somebody to give you this sum of money? Why would you want to do it to you? He wants, he, the man or woman who gave you the money, wants to make sure that that you deserve it. And and and yes, he believes, he or she believes that you will succeed. And this has to do with emotional intelligence. Very, very important in succeeding in business.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much, Professor Shechman. It was a pleasure to talk to you. It was really inspiring, and I hope all the scientists, young scientists or researchers who are experienced as well, will find a huge amount of very different and very interesting information taking into consideration your huge experience in this field. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Thank you for listening to the Eurmax Smart Talks podcast. For more information on Euremaxis, visit the Euromaxes portal. You will find more episodes of the Eurmax Smart Talks podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Google Podcasts.
SPEAKER_01This episode was reclaimed by Holz Damian Semovic and Yomanjevovic, audio engineer Pavel Drachovic, Outridge Manager Vincent Merek, Production Manager Morjan Rika, Editors, Iser Eli, and Mirsen Drienovic.
SPEAKER_00This episode is published under the Creative Commons CC by license.
