Raw Truths About the Perimenopausal Transition from inside The Vitality Conversations

In this rich and wide-ranging episode, Dr Kirstey Holland opens with a deep dive into Phase 1 of the Hierarchy of Healing — and it all begins in the gut. 

She explains why the gut is not a side topic but the central hub of perimenopausal symptoms, and how the gut-brain, gut-nervous system, and gut-skin axes are all connected to the brain fog, anxiety, bloating, and breakouts so many women are experiencing.

But this episode goes far beyond gut health. 

Dr Kirstey is joined by two women from the Vitality Conversations community, and together they explore some of the most profound — and rarely spoken about — aspects of the perimenopausal transition:

- Why perimenopause is a full neuroendocrine upgrade, not a breakdown

- The second puberty no one prepares you for — and why it's actually a graduation

- How your gut instinct is your first brain, and why healing your gut sharpens your discernment

- The friendship shifts, identity shifts, and even sexual shifts that come with this phase

- Why perimenopause is being dangerously confused with menopause in mainstream medicine — and what the difference actually means for your hormones

- The radical permission you need to rest, to be whole, and to stop abandoning yourself

- How to bring your partner into the journey so you grow together

This episode is part science, part soul work — and exactly the conversation most women are having behind closed doors but rarely out loud.

Mentioned in this episode:

On Our Best Behavior by Elise Louen
The work of Dr. Emeran Mayer (gut-brain axis)
Lara Briden & Professor Jerilynn Prior on progesterone and perimenopause
Jane Hardwick Collings on the phases of a woman's life
Photographer Anne Bloom (natural aging photography, Amsterdam)

Transcript

Dr Kirstey Holland 0:00

So the big idea. Beautiful, this week, we step into phase one of the hierarchy of healing, repair, and every repair journey begins in the same place, your gut. Your gut is not a side topic. It is a central hub of your perimenopausal symptoms. When the gut is inflamed, irritated, or leaking, it sends signals up to your brain, out to your nervous system, and through to your skin. So gut skin, gut brain, gut nervous system access. So if you're looking at your symptoms, the brain fog, the anxiety, the bloating, the breakouts, the wired and tired feeling, and wondering why they all seem to be happening at once, this is the answer. They are not separate problems. They are signals from one inflamed gut. The three highways that your gut uses to talk to the rest of you or the rest of your body. Gut to brain, through the vagus nerve, about 90% of your serotonin is made in the gut. When the gut is unhappy, mood, sleep, and focus suffer. Dr. Emerin Mayer, who's been studying the gut brain axis for 40 years, mentioned the other day, I heard him talking, talking about the fact that this biodirectional pathway between the vagus nerve, i.e. The gut and the brain, you've got two to one. So the messages going from the gut to the brain happen twice as often as the message going from the brain to the gut. So the argument is really that your gut is your first brain, not your second brain. That to nervous system, an irritated gut keeps you stuck in sympathetic dominance, fight or flight, which then slows digestion further and the loop tightens. Gut to skin. When the gut barrier weakens, inflammation finds an exit through the skin as breakouts, redness, and eczema flares. Why perimenopause makes your gut more fragile? Progesterone is decreasing, or progesterone is the hormone that's decreasing first in perimenopause, and progesterone modulates your immune system. She also modulates estrogen and histamine. So three things shift at the same time. Progesterone is declining, which removes some of its calming anti-inflammatory effect. Estrogen is fluctuating wildly, which alters the balance of your gut microbiome, and cortisol is often elevated from years of doing it all, which thins the protective gut, lining over time. So the gut you had in your 30s is not the gut you're having at 45. It needs different care. I've got a hypothesis around this gut-brain access, um, particularly based on the research of Lisa Marsconi, um, Brenton, um, Roberta Brenton, and Emerin Mayer. Because he talks about the fact that this gut-brain communication happens twice as regularly from the gut to the brain, right? So if that's true, and if your gut is your first brain With Roberta Brenton's theory and, and Professor Jerilynn Prior talking about the fact that when estrogen in perimenopause goes from very, very high to very, very low, it's the drop in the, the estrogen that your brain perceives as an emergency, therefore increasing cortisol. Cortisol punches holes in your gastrointestinal tract, therefore further, um, upregulating this leaky gut presentation or this issue with the gastrointestinal tract. So that's just another reason why the gut goes out in perimenopause. So where to start this week. Open your food, mood, and pain diaries inside of the clinic, and for seven days, note what you eat, how you sleep, and what you feel two hours later. Patterns will start to appear. So this is this real body literacy piece coming into play. Slow down at niels, sit, chew properly, put the phone down. Digestion begins in your nervous system, not in your stomach. Notice your top three symptoms. Just start to notice them. We'll work on them inside the protocol. That is everything you need this week. If you'd like to understand the science in a bit more detail, we'll keep going. For those of you who absolutely love the detail, none of this is required reading, but it's here if you want it or listening. The mucosal barrier, your gut lining is one cell thick, one cell. That single layer is the only thing standing between everything you swallow and everything inside you. To protect that fragile boundary, the gut has built three layers of defense, a slippery mucus layer that coats the cells, tight gap junctions, so the plumbing and the inside of the ga- gastrointestinal looks, track looks like this, nice and tight. When they're not tight, they leaky and that's what they look like. That's when particles can get from the gut into the bloodstream and that's not what we want. Good morning, gorgeous lady. Hi. Um, we were just, um, uh, uh, it's fantastic to have you here. I'll just let you know that I, I was literally just on a, on a, on a rampage talking about, um, uh, the mucosal barrier of the gastrointestinal tract. I love that. Doing some teaching for inside of the clinic platform so that you can listen to some of these things as, um, playback little podcasts. But, um, Jem, I've been thinking about you and your daughter, and thank you so much for your beautiful messages on Instagram. Like, they really warmed my heart, and I just Yeah, I know it's such an intense topic, so I was thinking about you afterwards going, "Oh, gosh, I hope I gave her the right advice. I hope that sat well," because it's, it's such a tricky scenario, you know? And it's, it's constantly with us because these little angels are, like, walking around in the world with our heartstrings attached to them no matter where they go. sometimes I think it's really nice to talk to people who are, like, 10, 20 years ahead as well, because you get this incredible, this incredible wisdom through the lens of retrospect. Like, at the time, you quite often don't know what to do. And, you know, so many times, people are like, "Oh, this is what's best for the child." But they don't necessarily And, and, and who knows which outdated textbook that might come from, i- if at all. And then you're also going, "Well, where does mother's instinct come into this, you know? And then after 26 years of spending so much time with women in these predicaments or circumstances or situations, there's certain things that I've come to know to be true, whether the dominant narrative is sharing that with mothers or not. And one of them is definitely the instinct that you have with regards to what is best for your child, um, because you've got your head screwed on, right? Like, of course, if there was a mother with a medical, diagnosis and she's unstable and all of those things, you know, you might not say to her, "All right, well, trust your gut instinct." But, um, when you know, when you know, you know. I totally agree. And I also think that there's nobody out there kind of allowing us or, or giving us And, and this was certainly my, my experience, no- nobody was actually giving me the power to make the decision. They were telling me what was best for my son. And I also think it's important for our kids to see us protecting them. Yeah. Whereas there was a long period of time, and my son and I are sort of unpacking it now, but I was like, "Sweetheart, you know, I was trying to do the best thing by you, but I didn't necessarily have all the power, but I also always said to him, you know, my home is your home 365 days a year, and that never changes. So if ever you need that to be the case, it's here." And, you know, he's moved out of home and he's 20 in July. And just yesterday, I said to him, "Darling, just a little, just, I'm just gonna add this into the end of the conversation. I just want you to know that wherever I am is your home." You know, like, just full stop. Like, wherever I am, that's, that's your home. You know, no invitation required. How did you percolate of the information? How did you sort of How, how did it land? Yeah, no, it land, it landed well. Um, I think my ADHD brain, you know, takes, uh, takes in some things and not others, and I'm like, "Oh, hang on- Yeah. What was that part again?" Yeah. That was really helpful. Um- Yeah. I think, uh, uh, the part, the, the biggest part that resonated with me was when you were talking about, you know, things that she can say to her dad- mm-hmm. It, like, in a way of, "Dad, this helps me feel good." Simple language. Simple language and, you know- Yes. can, you know, will you, can I please do this because this is what makes me feel good? Yes. And if he does say, you know, if he turns around and she, he says no, then you'd be like- Yeah. "Good dad, don't you want me to feel good? I don't understand." Correct. Correct. Why do you want me to feel good? Yes. Um, and, you know, I, I did speak to her around that and she- Mm. has that hesitance, you know, and, and I, I totally get it because she's, she's- Yes. predicting what he's gonna come back with. Yes. Yes. Like she's always gotta try and think one step ahead, which is that- The intelligence, the intelligence that she has, um, with regards to the capacity to, um to assume what his emotional intelligence level is and how he's gonna meet her request, you know? And, and, and, and she's, she's trying to circumvent or circumnavigate, um, uh, conf- conflict. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, but I think it's a, I think it's a really beautiful, such a simple conversation. Like, I, I've had a thought, "This is what really makes me feel good. This is what's gonna make me feel comfortable. I'd really like to do this. Is that okay?" And then the response being, like, yes or no, and then like, "Oh, but why, why wouldn't you want me to feel good?" Mm. Because that doesn't make me feel good. That makes me feel funny. That makes me feel off, you know? And then, and then actually, it's so hard to hold that line, but then, you know, waiting for the response is very interesting and, and it would be a bit of a pushback and something unusual, you know? But I think it's a, I think it's a really good lesson to teach and whether we get the conversation that we're looking for out of that or not, even as adults, if we go like, "Oh, actually, I don't feel good around that group." I had a, a patient the other day saying, "Oh, gosh," and this is something that I definitely see. I see the, the friendship group shifting in, in midlife. there's a friendship group shift. There's no doubt about it. hundreds of women have, have brought this conversation to me in 26 years, and one of the girls was like, "Oh, I always catch up with this group of women, and we go out to lunch, and, you know, unfortunately, there's a lot of alcohol consumption, and I'm just not wanting to do that anymore, so I'm not doing it, and therefore I'm not on the same wavelength, and they feel triggered by the fact that I'm not drinking, so suddenly I'm on the outside." And then it's like, "Oh, wow, what, what is the foundation of that friendship group to begin with? You know, and if that no longer makes you feel good, you know, it's e- it's even really difficult for adults to have that conversation, to have the conversation- Yeah. of, like, "Hey, this doesn't make me feel good anymore. I'm not gonna do this. You know, because then people start to People are triggered through the projection. It's like, "Oh, what? We're doing this. We don't feel good, but we're still doing this. Well, this is part of the, the, the, the crew, you know? I even had an adult woman say to me that she was going to take non-alcoholic gin and pour it into an alcoholic gin bottle so that she could take it to a barbecue and look to be drinking like everyone else, for example. Exactly. So sad. Like- Yeah. And, and it's so difficult for adults, and so difficult for children to stand up for themselves and to stand up for what makes them feel good. But I think at the end of the day, that internal conversation and that internal power can be so we can gift that to ourselves. We, we can just go, "Oh, you know what? Not gonna catch up with the, the moms that drink at lunch because it doesn't make me feel good." So then you create that separation yourself and you don't necessarily even need to have the confronting conversation, but what you do do is you bring into consciousness what makes you feel good and who is willing for you to suffer for them, right? So like, you know, it, it, it becomes a really interesting conversation and you go, "Oh, wow. So you are happy, you're happy to let me suffer, to do something that I don't wanna do or don't feel comfortable doing because your needs are more important than mine." And, uh, and, and that this, this conversation does come back down to needs. It's like, actually, I have needs and it's okay for me to have needs and it's okay for me to wanna feel good and to feel safe and to f- yeah, basically feel good. It's okay. And it's also okay to question the person that wants you to do something that doesn't make you feel good. And, and that is so simple. Our kids can embrace that, a six-year-old can embrace that and a 60-year-old can embrace that, you know, concept because it's so simple, but it's also very powerful and very triggering Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to learn this quite often over and over again, you know, because we find ourselves in circumstances where we wanna be liked and accepted and da, da, da, da, da. So we might sort of put our needs or put, you know, w- we may abandon ourselves because that's what's happening. We abandon ourselves in those moments and it just gets to the point where like, "Oh my God, like, at what cost am I gonna abandon myself and keeping myself safe and keeping myself happy and calm and all of those beautiful good things." Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We're all lucky with the people that we surround ourself with, right? You know, if we've got good, you know, if we've got a solid foundation, you know, our partners, our family, our, you know- Yes. who are around if, you know- Yes. Yes. on the same page and- And even if, uh, it helps so much when we have that social support, but, but most importantly, even when we don't, first and foremost, we have to actually get to a point where we have our own backs, where we actually have our own backs despite anything else around us, you know, despite anyone else, despite our partner, despite our, anyone, we go, "No, I'm actually gonna have my own back. This is what makes me feel good, and therefore I'm a better person when I do these things." And at what cost am I not going to do that? And then, and then we'll play around with it, you know, and then we'll do the thing that we didn't wanna do, and we'll feel the cost, we'll pay full price for the lesson, and then we'll go, "Ah, shit, that's not worth it. That full price lesson's not worth it. I'm not doing it anymore. But, but, you know, I completely, you know, soft, softness is good too, because, you know, I've learned my lessons full price, you know, and, and, and sometimes we kind of have to, you know, sort of go like, "Ooh, ouch, that's, that's a, that's a harsh one," you know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's so important and so profound and so simple all at the same time. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Kudos to you for teaching your daughter that too. Thank you. Pleasure. It's a hard journey, isn't it? We learn through our kids as well, I think, don't we? Yeah. Oh, we, we have the ability to reparent and revisit, you know, e- every, at every age that they go through, we, we have that ability to sort of go, "Oh, wow. Oh my gosh, at this point in time, I was doing X, Y, and Z." Um, and that's another thing that happens in perimenopause too. Like our childhood, um, adverse childhood ACE scores, um, our childhood trauma does come back to tap us on the shoulder. And that is the final, the, the, the final chapter of my book, um, that talks about release and putting that down because we do have the skills and the wisdom now and also the requirement to put down every, any load that is heavy because this is such a biological, um, hungry, i- i- i- i- it's a, it's a very hungry state biochemically, so we don't have the additional capacity, I don't believe, to carry emotional baggage around. So this is also, it's a requirement in order for us to And I think it's got a beautiful ending, even though it sounds a bit dark and harsh, I think once we finally able to put that down, the next 50 years are, 50 years of, you know, not only food freedom through repairing the gastrointestinal tract, but this amazing emotional freedom that comes with that too. You know, and, and, and that I, I do believe is a sort of ongoing process. Like I revisit things that happen and certain aspects are illuminated, you know, when I look back through that incredibly clear lens of retrospect, which, feels interesting. sometimes the focus is, out of focus and I can't quite see the detail. And then other days, the detail will come into sharp focus and it's as if I'm looking through a different set of specs and I'm like, "Oh my God, that's so clear. Wow. Like, whoa, how was that possible?" You know, even just comparing my relationship to my 19-year-old, almost 20-year-old son, and then comparing my relationship to my mother when I was that age and, you know, that, that's been quite confronting. I Um, for me personally, I was like, oh my God, wow. That's how she was in relationship with me at that point in time. And then you look at the comparison to, you know, how you're in relationship with your own children at whatever point in time they're at. And it can actually resurface those things. But I think with grace and I think with forgiveness and I think with love, we can, we can have a look at all of those different parts and alchemize them Yeah. Bec- because of the choice to alchemize them into a place of beauty and release as opposed to a place of resentment and bitterness and, you know, yeah. We choose the higher vibration. We choose the higher vibration energetic. Maybe for a moment in time, bitterness, pissed off you know, just a, just a little awareness. And then, okay, no, no, no. I'm gonna go to the higher vibration. I'm gonna go to, I'm grateful for I am now, I'm grateful for the, the growth, I'm grateful for the relationship I now have with my son as opposed to X, Y, and Z. Yeah. That's quite a long way to answer that question though, or to come around to that. I hope that makes sense. Mel, you've come on in at a good time. I get the sense that you're nodding along. Yes, I love this. Thank you. Um, such a, yeah, just such a great reminder. I do feel in my own journey, this is a big part of what's coming up and- Yeah, wanting to be released. So, um- Yes. Yes. And it's good because it's actually just, um, just kind of like, I, I noticed myself just in this moment just from listening and, um, you know, feeling into my own journey because the question that I wanted to come in with today is that, um, I don't really have many words for this because this is what I'm trying to describe. We'll work it out together, don't you worry? Yes. And I've been thinking of the, like, you know, how you refer to it as, like, a neuroendocrine transition, this whole phase that we're moving through. And I've just been, um, thinking about that because I, I've been feeling so good, um, most of the time now, like, in comparison, but then there are moments, like, a- and, and, you know, you can't, I, I kind of think, "Oh, today I feel like this, but it's probably not all day. You know what I mean? It's just, like, there's this moment- Oh, yes, I know. I know. I have one of my going on this morning. Yeah, like, my brain's not working. And I'm like, "Oh, I don't even have words." So, um, yeah, I guess I just wondered, like, if you could speak to that a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So sometimes, the easiest way to describe things is to actually talk about yourself, right? So I, I will be vulnerable and share. Like, I, I'm somebody who is not able to sleep in the same bed with anyone else. And I find this really interesting because I was a single mom for 20 years, so pretty much was on my own in my bed, right? And then, of course, I meet the love of my life and, uh, you know, you just i- immediately wanna sleep in the same bed. You've got this gorgeous, you know, snuggly relationship. Yan was in his own house with his two girls, and, um, and he was on the other side of the bay 45 minutes away, and I was living in my own home. So when Yan didn't have his girls, he would come over and he would stay at my place. And then when he had his girls, he'd go home. Now, I didn't tell him this in the beginning, but I basically did not sleep when Yan was at my house. So he would go home and I would have a secret little, like, "Oh, thank God, because I, now I can recover. Now I can actually get some decent sleep. I'm also an introvert, so I have to recharge my batteries entirely on my own. So I can't have anybody in my space when I recharge my batteries, which is also difficult when you live with the love of your life. So in 2025, I found myself We live in a house that's on, on different levels. So there's a bottom level where Yanni's study is and bedroom and bathroom, and then there's the middle level, and then there's my study, and then there's, you know, our bedroom and, and other bedrooms and bathrooms as well. So it's kind of, like, on all these different levels. And I would basically go and hide on the level that my bathroom was in and keep the door shut. And this is, this is something that I do wanna talk about more because I think this might be playing into what you're talking about. And, and, and I think to say that perimenopause is a neuroendocrine transition state is too simplified because, yes, it's a brain and hormonal, complete rewiring, but I think more of what needs to be said about this is that you are a neuroendocrine upgrade, upgraded, or upgrading version of yourself. I think every single cell in your body needs to unplug, recharge, and then I think you need to figure out who the hell you are moving forward. So 2025, I think I spent so much time in that Yan was literally like knock, knock, knock on the door, like, "Babe, what are you doing in there?" And, and actually there was a day where I went, "I'm getting to know myself. I'll let you know once I've figured it out, you know? And I was like, God, I, I had this real sense of, like, this is an entire upgrade. I don't know who I am. I don't know what I want. I don't know what kind of sex I wanna have. Like, every single thing about you is changing, including all of the mucus membranes in your ladybits, including the way that you want to connect with your partner, including the So, s- so it can feel so lonely because this external landscape kinda looks the same, right? You've still got 2.5 kids and a husband and maybe a job or a garden or your kind of, you know, home, home economic schedule, whatever that may be. There, there's school. And then there's this invisible transition that is probably one of the greatest transitions of all time, and we give second puberty no spotlight, and it's not even spoken about, and most women don't know that it's coming. And then the next minute you're hit over the head with this, like, "What the hell? And who am I? And what's going on? And why don't I recognize myself? I don't even like my friends anymore. I don't even like my partner anymore. I don't even like my kids anymore. I don't even like this food anymore." Like, there can be all of that. And I'm kind of exaggerating, but some of that is true and some of it isn't, but all of it could be as well, right? But it's this entire shift, change and recalibration, and it is a second puberty. So with the girls, you know, you, you're a mom of two girls. So you've got these little girls, you kind of, you know, y- you, you might've gone to the supermarket and purchased, you know, some beautiful little organic tampons from Tom's, put them in the third drawer down, bought a little book, given them a book about first puberty, you know, being gentle, you know, conversations or, or that might be coming, um, particularly for you, Jem, I don't, don't know if that, that's happened yet, but, you know, like we've got this sort of expectation of this first puberty, this change, this complete, you know, shift. But the second puberty, there's, there's almost nothing. It feels like a silencing. It feels like a secret. And then you've got the patriarchal lens of, well, we'll just tell these women that, um, what is, what, what is, uh, celebrated and what is powerful is the 25-year-old. We, we're, we're, we're gonna tell people that it's like forever young is where we wanna be. You know, we are gonna anti-age. We're gonna do the opposite of age. We're not gonna step into our crone wise woman years where we do, don't take any bullshit and you can't pull a wool over our eyes anymore. You know, that beautiful And I'm not necessarily saying that a matriarchal society is the way to go. From everything that I've read, I actually think a power with society is the best case scenario, so not patriarchal or matriarchal, a power with. But when you look at a power with society, it's the elders that support because they have the wisdom and the knowledge and the beauty, and that is not celebrated in our community or in our society much. We generally What I see in Australia and actually in South Africa is that old people are put in homes and hidden away. Whereas in places like Italy, you see 70, 80-year-olds walking around the fruit and veggie market and out with the entire generational family, with the grandchildren and the younger women, and you see them in society. But here, y- y- you know, a- all the people are put away. So, so it's, it's, it's kind of the scary gray zone because it's like, well, if we celebrate the 25-year-old in our society, and if I'm suddenly going through this second puberty, am I gonna be washed up and done for? Like, as I'm trying to, as, as I'm trying to get to know myself again, we've got all of this strange messaging coming in that we almost need to reject, like, on purpose and consciously, because otherwise there's this incongruency going on because I'm not sure if you've started to feel this Mel, but there is this wisdom. There is this, like, self-referenced being that is expanding out of that, and that in itself is in contradiction with what a lot of the, the, the, the, the s- sort of social and cultural messaging is saying. So no wonder we're confused, right? No wonder we're confused. And instead of being supported, like, I have this fantasy of going into, in, into people's homes and describing to children, husbands, um, sisters, cousins, what is going on with the perimenopausal woman in your life and how she needs to be supported so that she can blossom and graduate into this incredibly powerful, no one's gonna eff with her now, leader, protector for the younger generations in order to give these beautiful women and our children the power that they deserve from this incredible empowered, y- y- you know, like the divine feminine, like the ultimate divine feminine, like with her beautiful wrinkly face and her gorgeous aged body and hair, you know? So I'm not surprised that we're confused, and at the same time, I wanna try to support and talk as much as I possibly can about the beauty that I think we're literally excavating. Like, that, that, that's why this, this, this biopsychosocial lens, and that's also why this body literacy piece, because the body literacy piece is not just body literacy alone. It is, it is soul work. This is about coming home to your soul. And I, I've shared this a few times on Instagram. I, I've seen something, y- you know, uh, sort of circulating. I don't know who it's from, and I've seen other beautiful women share this, but it's basically something along the lines of, we're coming back to our 16-year-old self, but this time we're gonna really embrace her and love her, and we're gonna be who we, who we didn't have the confidence or the strength to be then, you know? Or going back to that beautiful, somewhere between the ages of six, eight, nine, 10-year-old, who we were before we were told who we had to be or should be, and bringing her into our consciousness and allowing her to be who she's always meant to be, but giving her full permission this time around, and kind of really embracing her and giving her all she needs. And I know that this sounds so simple, but I honestly believe that time, space, and rest is the gateway to what you're talking about desiring i- in order for us to get there in, in a, in a place of wholeness as opposed to goodness, you know? There's an incredible book called, um, uh, it's by Elise Loonan, um, On Our Best Behavior, and she writes about wholeness over goodness, and it's like this, "Are you a good wife? Are you a good girl? Are you a good friend? Are you a Or are you a human being in all of her wholeness? Do you bring all of who you are to it? And are you whole?" You know? And that woman, you can't manipulate her. You can't manipulate the woman that you are becoming right now. You may have been able to manipulate 25-year-old Mel, or 16-year-old Mel, or 18-year-old Mel, or 6-year-old Mel, but the woman that you're talking about excavating, blooming into, becoming, discovering, getting to know, she's, she's just, she's solid, she's earthed, she's unwavering, and she knows. It's that knowing, it's that incredible wisdom. And I don't think that, I don't think that it's a mistake that it's wobbly, you know, um, in, in getting there. And, and, and I think this neuroendocrine transition pushes almost all the buttons in order to be able to graduate into her because I, I do believe it's a graduation, and that's the fertile ground that I want to create for every single woman that I get to come into contact with so that she is able to graduate into that beautiful human being that she always was meant to be if she hasn't yet arrived, right? And what I'll add is because it is so taxing, it's so energetically taxing, the neurological, hormonal, endocrine transition state, this entire upgrade, I think part of it is we, we get to the point where we, we, we can't give a shit anymore about the things that don't matter. We, we just can't because we don't have the energy for it. Like, we actually have to look into that bag of fucks to give and it has to be empty, yeah? 'Cause we need that for ourselves, and we need that for our children and our relationships moving forward, you know? And even, even, uh, e- e- even something as, a- as, as intimate and close as, as sex. Jane Hardwick Collins talks about this, and I love the fact that she talked about this, and she gave me a real gift. She, she said to the group of women that I was in, she was like, "Every single thing, even the mucosa and your vagina is changing, so your body wants different sex. You know, your body wants different sex." And I thought, "Oh my God, she's so right." And Yana and I had a very honest conversation the other day and I said to him, you know, it's got something to do with this entire transition, but it's also around, like, I am trying to figure out who I am and what I want and how things are changing and it's, it's not all revealed to you at once. It's revealed to you in moments, and I call them downloads. Like, I'll have a download. I'll be like, "Oh, that's what I want now. Oh, that's what works for me. Oh, I can see that friendship dynamic now clearly." Oh, right. Yeah. It doesn't have to be, like, a breakup. It's just like, oh, yeah, she, she's not as safe as she was once before to me, that friendship. So, so that just sort of extends out over there. And then this apprehension towards, like, people are like, "Oh, menopausal women don't wanna have sex." That's not true. Jane Hardwick-Collins also gave me this, and I'd love to share it. She says that there's nothing more powerful than a menopausal orgasm. There's nothing, you know, apparently Well, and I've experienced this myself. They are longer and more intense than ever before, but they're very different. It's a very different kind of sex. And there's this apprehension for us to have sex because the mucosal layer is changing and we need to do things differently, ultimately slower and, and more gentle, but it can be longer, more connective and more incredible than ever before, but it is different. So there's this apprehension towards sex. Like, and I've experienced that. I've gone like, "Oh, I don't really wanna have sex, but it's not because I don't wanna have sex. It's because I'm not sure about how my changing body needs to be there now." So, so, you know, it, it, it's a, it, it's kind of, it feels awkward and it almost feels as awkward as when you're having sex for the first time. Like, it, it's a, it sort of feels like that. So I think, I think that's a perfect example of how vulnerable and how on every single level this thing is changing. Soul, spirit, sex, mucosal membranes, and it just makes perfect, perfect sense. If the mucosal membranes of the eyes, ears, nose, throat, gut, vagina are all changing and we're having a, a neurorendocrine transition, it actually makes perfect sense once you say all of that, that your entire spirit and your soul is also going through an upgrade. But this is not a conversation that we're hearing, you know? And then, like I said, we almost have to block our ears to the conversations that we are hearing about how we have to cut our faces off and have facelifts and buy anti-aging cream and stay as small and as thin as we possibly can and all of that bullshit that keeps us in that patriarchal adolescent beauty lens, which is just absolutely ridiculous, you know? Is that kind of what you were asking? Yes. Absolutely. Thank you. I needed to hear that so much. I actually was just listening to some of Jane Hardwick Collins this morning. Um, yeah, I love her so much. Um, I haven't heard of that book you mentioned, but I, I really like the same- So good. Yes, so I'm going- It's so good. Goodness Versus Wholeness or something, was it? So, so the book is actually called, um, a- and it is gonna be in the book club. I think I might even, even ha- even have it in the book club. I've got a whole bunch of books that I recommend, you know, for different questions like this when they come up. Yanni is gonna pop that in the, uh, in the, um, in the platform, but this book is called On Our Best Behavior, and it's by Elise Lunen. And, um, and she actually has a journal that attaches to that, that I th- I think the journal is called, you know, Cultivating Wholeness Over Goodness or s- or something like that. But, but it's actually the, the, on our best behavior follows the seven deadly sins in the Bible, and she ta- i- it's not religious. The book is not as, it's not sort of religious, but it, it talks about how women have been seen through history and how we sort of hold onto these, you know, you're either the Maria or you're the whore, you know? So it's like, uh, uh, i- i- it's, it's kind of all of those dichotomies as well. Like, you're a good girl or you're a whole girl. Y- you know, you're not allowed to have an opinion or have needs. You've gotta take care of everybody else's needs and everybody else's opinions. And yeah, it's, it's, it's a very good book for midlife, I think, in particular. Yeah. And I mean, gosh, of course, maybe, maybe the younger women too, to try to start to kind of not catch them off guard when they get to this point in time going, "Oh my gosh, like, certain things feel so incongruent. There's one message over here, and then there's another message over here, and I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle and I don't even know who I am, and is that normal?" Yes, absolutely it is. Yeah. And I, I, I actually also think it's a fantastic gift because I think it's an invitation to, like, I, I, I think invite yourself to figure it out. Like, you know, allow yourself that Like, who am I? How am I changing? What's going on for me? What do I want and don't, what don't I want? And again, that same question, like, at what cost? At what cost? I mean, I have, you know, so many women come into the clinic and go, "Ah, you know, I'm tearing with sex. I'm bleeding. I don't wanna have sex anymore." I, I've had the conversation where women come into me almost too late and then they go, like, "We don't have sex anymore because I co- couldn't take penetration and, and, and, and so that's closed off. We don't have that part of our lives anymore." And I just think, oh, gosh, like, you just, you just miss this beautiful, incredible opportunity to also teach yourself and your partner that it's okay for that to change too because hello, light bulb moment. Like, guess what? These beautiful men that are walking alongside us are not 25 either anymore. So, you know, like, they actually are probably also gonna feel a sense of relief, like you know, in, like, it's okay. And, and, and, and to, to take from Jane, Ja- Jane is very, you know, forthright about it. She's like, "The mucosal membranes of the vagina have changed and they need a softer cock, you know? And she's like, "Well, and they're cocks are softer because they're older." So she goes, "It's the perfect match." And I'm like, "Oh, that makes so much sense, you know, that makes so much sense." So slowly through self, through self-discovery, through a curiosity, like, oh, why doesn't that work for me anymore? What do I want? Why am I apprehensive about this? Am I apprehensive about this because And, and when we had the conversation, I, I was literally, like, talking out loud. I was just workshopping it with Yanni. Like, he was just lying there next to me listening, going, "This is so interesting." And I was like, "Why am I apprehensive about it? Oh, it's because I'm afraid, I'm scared that, you know, things have changed, things feel different, I don't know what I need now. We're gonna have to figure this out. But I think if we include our partners, and I'm just using sex as one of the examples because it is such a vulnerable but very profound example because it so often comes up in conversations with women, like, "I have no libido anymore. I don't wanna have sex anymore." And it's like, hang on a minute. Like, I know you're saying that, but where's the apprehension coming from? And of course, there's some women who don't want to, genuinely don't wanna make love to their partners anymore. But on an intellectual level, what I've noticed in the clinic with perimenopausal women is, is that intellectually, the majority of perimenopausal women actually still want to make love to their partners, but on a physical level, there's this apprehension because there's this changing biopsychosocial component to themselves, you know, and they're like, "Ooh, I've changed. Something's different." So sometimes it's easier just to say no or shut something down or shut something out becau- instead of being gentle, curious, expecting a change, expecting transition, expecting an upgrade, expecting a graduation, expecting the second puberty to move us towards something even more beautiful. And, and actually the intelligence that Jan brought to this conversation was so beautiful because what he actually said at the end of the whole conversation about sex and our changing bodies and graduating into these beautiful menopausal women was, "And baby, this new sex that we're gonna discover together is the kind of sex that can take you to a place of connection and lovemaking in your 90s." And that makes perfect sense to me. I go, "That makes perfect sense." That, you know, it's this re- and, and I mean, I was more apprehensive and nervous and feeling a bit, like, vulnerable and, and like, "Oh, is it okay? Things have changed. I don't know what, uh..." And Yanni was like, "This is so exciting. We get to learn a whole new thing, like, how cool is that? And it's gonna take time and it's gonna need to be slow and we're gonna do this together." So I think that that's also the knowledge management. And I think that there, I think that the knowledge management as we cross from puberty into womanhood, into motherhood, into perimenopause, into menopause, I think at all these points in time, because it's happening to us, if we do have partners, whether they're male or female, I think it's our responsibility to take them with us on the journey if we want them to be part of the journey because the internal landscape is changing so much, they can't see it in real time, so we have to start to share it and go, "Hey, baby, I wanna take you on this journey with me. It's, it's unknown. It's kind of like a choose your own adventure and you can't see around the next corner, it's dark, and you're not sure whether the lamp's working, you know? Do you, uh, do you have to create a fire together in order to see the, the walls of the cave? Like, how are you gonna figure this out? But I, I, I, I actually really think that through that lens, it, it's not as scary and it's not all of those awful things that we also hear about the dominant narrative in terms of aging women. This to me makes it more precious and exciting and magical and special. And I just kind of go, "Wow, I can't imagine what else is gonna come out of this beautiful space and out of this beautiful place," you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. Thank you. It's a pleasure. And, and, and I think that everything that I've just said, you know, but it's important to hear it, it, it's important to come into the, in, into, into the words and into the communication and into the conversation because I've never had anyone push back on that concept before, you know, and, and, and, and the woman that I share this with go, yes, like, this is deep, this is rich, this is exactly what I'm talking about, and this is exactly how I feel. And this other messaging out there, this sort of fudding, which is, which, which is sort of fear and unknown and uncertainty and dried up and done for and over with and, you know, because that's out there. That's, that's very much out there and it's quite loud. It's quite loud, but I think the, the confusion comes in where the two sort of start to collide. It's kind of like the ocean is coming in and then there's this river of this other, this other piece of information and where they kind of, where this intersection is, it's like this feels incongruent. I can't be doing this one thing and becoming this incredibly beautiful, wise, powerful crone, and I don't even like the word crone, but I, I s- I do see it as part of the kind of goddess transition, you know, and then this other sort of dried up, done for, you know, washed up, like, just kind of, you sort of go, "No wonder we're so confused." Mm. Yeah. And, and if I were to say to you, "What do you need in order to do that? What, what, what comes to mind? Mm. I think it's exactly what you said earlier, which is the time, the space, you know, just permission, like, giving myself permission to- Yes, please. to have that, you know, like- mm-hmm. rest and lean into that spaciousness that- mm-hmm. is available in my life, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And not, not, like, kind of succumb to that external pressure or those, those voices- mm-hmm. you know, in my head of, like, "Oh, but you should be doing more or, you know, like- Yes. doing anything, like, you're not being active in ways." Yes, yes. You know? Yes. Yes. Um, so yeah, so I think just that permission piece is huge. Um, and yeah, just allowing myself to rest into it because I think that's probably one of the, the biggest learnings- Mm. up until this point in life. Mm-hmm. Like me, um, anyway, like my experience and I, I, I certainly see it reflected back is, um- You're not alone. Yeah, you know, like we just, we're in this society and culture that- mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that does Don't, um, honor that. Yes. Doesn't respect that. Yes. Yes. Um- And I think something that can really power us, particularly as mothers, and, you know, even if, you know, there are beautiful women out there that, that don't have their own children, I think if we can go, "What are we showing our girls?" Like, what are we showing them? Like, are we You know, do the girls go, you know, "Gosh, she's really Like, what do we want to give them permission for? You know? Like, how do we want them to see their perimenopause or their You know, because they watch everything. They're watching every single thing you do. And you go, "Okay, so we've got the first puberty sort of tick. You know, we've, we, we, we've sort of moved away mostly from the shame of the bleed and, you know, we've got tampons in bathrooms now. We're almost there." Like, you know, if you call in and you've got period pain, nobody gives you a hard time. Your boss is like, "Yep, no worries. Stay home. Get a ho- you know, hot water bottle." But it's like, what are we, what are we doing about this, this sort of invisible cavern between the fertile years and menopause, which is perimenopause? And this conversation is not being had here. This conversation is not being had between women a- at, from the age of 35 to 55, unless it's in the tiny little crevices of the, the, the spaces like that of Jane Hardware Collins, you know? Like, it's in these tiny little corners of the internet or of the universe. It's not mainstream TikTok. No one on mainstream TikTok is saying, "If you are a woman between the ages of 35 and 55, you're coming into your most incredibly juicy, powerful phase. No one is gonna be able to, you know, hold it over you anymore." Like, and in order to get there, you need to fight for radical rest, you know, in order to get there, radical space, radical rest, radical acceptance, what am I no longer available for? How am I no longer going to accommodate, you know? And I think those things, I think they feel very difficult to go against because we've been doing them for so long. Like, if we've, if we've landed here, like, "Man, oh, man, like, for how long have we been accommodating in all these other areas?" And it's just become a, a habit, you know? Mm. Have a wonderful day. Um, yeah. And, and we kind of A- a- and I understand why that, that narrative of, like, you're broken can land because on these days, when you are in the process of transition, something is breaking. So they are sort of getting into a half truth, right? So we go, "Yeah, I am broken. I am fucking broken. That, that must be right." Like, because it is a half truth. It's like, yes, it, but I, I think let's switch out the word broken with the word phoenix. Like, this is a phoenix, you know? This is a moment of empowered, incredibly powerful change, but it can feel like breaking. And that's also okay. Like, break down the old, break down the old systems, break down the old structures. We actually don't want them. They're not working for us. Us, Tallavista, see you later. Like, actually, fuck off. Like, you know, excuse my French. But, you know, that's, that's what I think we need. Like, I think we need that. Like, no, it's actually okay for me to do nothing. Because you know how you were saying, like, I need to be doing more. Like, if what I have just said is true about the neuroendocrine transcision state, if you were to be doing that, lying on the couch for the entire week, I would argue that that's already 40 hours a week work right there- Mm. with every single cell in your body doing exactly what I've just explained. Yeah. Right? So you've already got a job right now that's 40 hours a week. In order, in order for you to become the wise elder that your girls need to see, you know, they so need to see that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I also remember this, and I remember you saying, "My girls have noticed. My girls have noticed that there's a shift. My girls have noticed that there's a change. My girls have noticed that there's this vibrancy, that there's less, like, mum is, mom is upgrading." Like, I want them to see this as an upgrade. She, she took a stance. She started to look after herself and look at the entire organism glow and grow and expand and become enriched and enlivened because of this. Yeah. And your husband, there's no doubt that he sees that too. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. There's no doubt. Absolutely. And I do feel, uh, you know, extremely, you know, blessed and privileged really because, like, like, I do have the family dynamic, like, in terms of our- Perfect. family, the four of us where he is- Perfect. extremely supportive, and he's okay with me resting, just, you know- Perfect. what looks like doing nothing. Perfect. Um, he, you know, we obviously also talk and he knows I'm not actually- Yes. anything. Um- Of course. and so he really values it. So it's really interesting that it's actually- Yes. me, it's like this internalized patriarchal- Yes. stuff that's like within me, that's actually the biggest barrier. It's not him. Yes. Yes. And certainly not my daughters, you know? Um, yeah, so it's really fascinating. Yeah. And then the question needs to be, do I want wholeness or do I want goodness? Mm. Do I wanna be a good girl or do I wanna be whole? And in order to be whole, all, all I need to do is listen to myself and actually give myself permission. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And how hard is it? It is. And I think- So hard. discerning my own voice, you know- Yes. discernment piece because, um, we're just so used to, like, hearing everyone else's voices you know? Yes. Um- Yes. that it's like, well, what is my voice? And, and like you say, it's like, it's this, this voice that's emerging, you know, like this new voice- It's emerging. Yeah. Absolutely. It's emerging. And recognizing that. And it's not lost on me that the weeds and the toxins and the, you know, like when we focus on the, the healing, the sealing and the repairing, and we remove the noise from the gastrointestinal tract, we clear out the food noise, we clear out the toxicity, we, we, we give it a bit of a flush, we pull the weeds out of that garden, we tend to the soil, we create fertile ground, we start to plant those roses, and the communication between the gastrointestinal tract and the brain is Emerin Mayer, who studied the gut brain access for 40 years says that there's a two-to-one communication from the gut to the brain, two to one. So the gut speaks to the brain twice as much as the brain speaks to the gut. So who is the first brain? Who is the first brain? And your gut instinct is the one that I would imagine is the one that needs to be listened to, and that's where the discernment comes in. That's where And I love that word, where you go, "No, this is actually what my gut is saying. Why am I overriding this? Why am I saying I can't, I shouldn't. This isn't the right thing to do. You know? So using that discernment to go, "No, this is actually what my instinct is requiring. This is what my biology, my psychology is requiring of me. Like, it is, it is begging me to do this. And I don't know about you, but honestly, like, every single time I give into it, right, which is what we should do automatically, like, listen to the words, should. Like, you know, that, that again shows you that we're not, like, you know, w- we're not, like, automatically doing it. Like, of course we're gonna do it. Of course, we're gonna listen to the gut. No, we have to be discerning. We have to go, no, we should listen to the gut. Of course, I need to listen to my gut. It is no longer dysbiotic. This is the instinct. This is what every single cell in my body is telling me that I need to do. I'm gonna do it. Every time you've woken up from an afternoon nap, tell me you have regretted that decision. Mm. True. The version of yourself that ex- that, that, that, that kind of, like, comes out of that beautiful space of rest. Like, even when your girls bring you something annoying or challenging or You know, when there's a conversation around the dinner table, just this space between the, the, the, the stressor and your response, I just find is so much more graceful when rest is at the core of everything we dom. And, and that, that pace, you know, that bad things happen quickly, you know? Bad things happen quickly. When we take the time and we're gentle and soft, like, "I don't wanna have sex. I don't have a libido anymore. That's quick." Like, "Oh, I'm apprehensive about making love to you. I don't know why. Can we talk about this? I'm really feeling strange." Like, that conversation takes time. It's slow. It's like, it's, it's curious, you know, instead of women just going, "I don't wanna have sex anymore. I've got no libido at blah, blah, blah." Like, that's fast. So I, I, I, I, I, I try to catch myself with fast and slow responses. I go, "Oh, was that a slow response or was that a quick response?" Like, and, and Yan actually talks about this too. He goes, "Do you want my first answer or do you want my best answer?" Mm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and I think with, with time, with space, w- with rest, I think quite often we can bring our best. Yes. Yeah. And, and when we think about we wanna be sustainable for the next 50 years, you know, like, I ideally do want to be one of those beautiful 80-year-old women holding Yanni's hand, like, still in love, still super connected. How did they do that? I get a sense that they did exactly what we're talking about now. I get a sense that they were curious. I get a sense that that couple went, "What's going on? Like, I don't know, baby, but let's figure it out together, rather than this shutdown, clamping down, "You've changed, I've changed, something's not right. You know, these silver divorces are happening all over the place, but I wonder what would happen if we actually turned towards each other and then went, oh, this is so interesting, you know? Yeah, like, what's going on? This is so cool." Like, imagine all of this incredible new adventure we can come up with together. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, Mel, I've been there, I'm sure you've been there and, and I see women in the world that are dysregulated and fast and sort of spinning around and I just, I just know that we can be better than that. Mm. I just, I just know that there's so much more juice when we slow it down and we really sink in and we come together with this incredible knowing and I really don't know how else to get to that knowing other than through space and rest. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. So you're right on time. Yeah. You're, you, you, you're in the perfect position right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, like, one of the things you've said a couple times is, like, this idea of being broken, because I think it's- mm-hmm. so quick to, like, if we're not feeling, like, I'm feeling out of sorts or, you know, I can't find the word- Yes. or whatever it is, I'm like- Yes. there's something wrong with me, I'm broken- Yes. you know, like, I've gotta fix this. Like, you know- Yes. need a quick solution. Like- Yeah, that's right. Yeah. yeah, just recognizing when that comes in- Mm. that it's actually the complete opposite is a solution. Oh. Yeah. And, and I like the, the, the, like, let's switch out the words. Like, uh, you know, I'm sure that there are many more words, but perhaps we could switch out broken with transition, like, "Oh, I'm transitioning." You know, like, because transition, like, transition is what happens inside that, you know, inside that cocoon. Like, the chrysalis is completely transitioning, you know, like, from a worm into a butterfly. Like, that's a complete transition. And I'm sure that perhaps somewhere in that being, like, i- i- i- in, in, in the consciousness at some point in time, they must have felt like they were in some kind of jail or prison, and then the next minute they knew they had wings and they were flying out of there, you know? Like, it's like, gosh, you've gone from a worm to a butterfly? Like, how's that even possible, you know? So, I think transitioning is so much more beautiful because it, it sort of allows for this, like, unknown beauty on the other, on the other side, like, this, this unknown beauty. And I, I get glimpses and I search for them, I really search for them. And I'm on Instagram for work and, but there, there are a few people that I follow, and I'll see there's this gorgeous woman called Anne Bloom. She's, she's, um, in Amsterdam, and she's a photographer that takes photographs of older women. Mm. And I cannot tell you how stunning they are. And these are naturally older women, which I also think is gonna be something that we I, I think we're gonna walk around the world and go, "Oh my gosh, there's a natural She's natural. She's natural. She's natural. She's natural. We're gonna do that. And I'm very excited about being part of that club. And, but at the same time, it's daunting and it's, and it, and it's, it's change. So, so I look to these women who are potentially 10 to 20 years older than me, and I, every single time I see the beautiful gray hair or the white hair and the wrinkly faces, I honestly, with every cell in my body, look at them and go, "God, this is so beautiful. Like, why would I not do this? Yeah. Why would I not do this, you know? And yeah, I, I've said this before and I'll say it again, like, I th- I think it's so wise. Like, Cameron Diaz gets, you know, I don't know, all this vitriol about the fact that, "Oh, she looks terrible. I can't believe it because all the other celebrities are cutting their faces off, getting facelifts and Botox and all the things, and she's allowing herself to age naturally." And she said, "I would rather age in a way that I, like, basically continue to look like who I am, as opposed to end up looking like someone I no longer recognize." And that to me is very empowering. I'm like, yeah, I wanna see me at 60. I wanna see me at 70, 80, 90. I don't wanna see myself and go, "Gosh, that looks nothing like my 8-year-old picture. I wanna be able to look at myself at eight and look at myself at 80 and go, oh, isn't she cute?" You know? Yeah. But, um, I think we need to have these conversations as loudly and as often as we possibly can. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, because it's I, I think a lot of women are having these thoughts behind the scenes, and it's secret, and it's behind closed doors, and as soon as we bring it out into the open and start having a conversation like the one we've just had, I think then there's this incredible energy of, like, like, as opposed to, like, oh my God, I'm broken and losing my shit. I can't even remember the word for the thing that you put in the fridge. You know? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it's, it is, like you say, it just, it, there's a newness, like, it's, um- Yes. like, it's the creation energy again, like it's- Yes. you know, what I feel it's like- Yes. you know, because when we go through all those transitions, and even like you're saying, it's like with Me- you know, Menarchy, so that's great now, and even with- mm-hmm. dance, that's out there now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you're in that, you know, creative phase- mm-hmm. um, but, and that's honored more now, you know? Yes. Like I would say it's- Yes, yes. but it's definitely got better. Yes. Um, but it's this third or kind of l- final transition, obviously, before death- mm-hmm. that, um- mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yeah, is just, it's almost like the creation or that creation that's built up to this, it's, it's- mm-hmm. it's not valued. It's like, "Oh, well, that's gone now." But actually, no, it's like there's- Yes. so much creative energy here. It's just about- Yes. how we look at it, how- Exactly. how we, um, work with that. It's just different. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and I, and I will even say this and, um, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure Jane would, um, would probably, um, w- would tell me that this is clear to her, but when I saw her talk about the phases in a woman's life- mm-hmm. to me, it really was, um, menachi, metrescence, and then menopause. Like, I, I didn't really see the explanation. I, I did see her take it. She, she did talk about perimenopause as if it was the afternoon. So, so, so, you know, kind of, you know, morning, kind of mid-morning, afternoon and evening, you know, um, menachi, metressence, perimenopause and menopause or summer, uh, or spring, summer, autumn, winter. So I, I know that there's an autumn and I know that there's an afternoon that represents perimenopause, but it's still not that clear that the, the, the au- the autumn and the afternoon in the winter sort of get lumped in together. Yeah. I agree. You know? I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a word I came across years ago, and I think it's to do with one of the, like, traditional cultures is MAGA, M-A-G-A. Yeah. And I think that it may be I, I could be wrong, but I feel like it might be like a South American, you know- Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah, uh, word, um- Yeah. that they use for, um, the, that phase. Yeah. I've heard it too. Yeah. Um, I have to have a look at that as well, but, um, I'll, I'll just write it down, but I think that Yeah, sorry. So- But yeah, it's very little, like it's little recognized- Yes. You know what I mean? Like, as its own distinct- Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and what I was, what I was looking for or looking at when I was seeing Jane present this, um, I saw her and her menopausal posse. Mm-hmm. Um, but, but, but I felt like they had already, they were already in the winter. Yes. But, but I didn't necessarily see a representation of the autumn or the perimenopause, you know? Yeah. So, so I still felt like that was sort of, that explanation or that understanding or that transition was kind of missed in a sense. So I still feel like it's a little bit un- i- i- i- it's, it's unchartered territory. It is. It's very- It's unchartered territory. Yes. I, I agree. I agree. And, and I do wonder whether, like, part of that is because it is so, like, women who are going through it, like, when we in it- Mm. it's hard to even put words to it or language, like, we, you know what I mean? Like- That's exactly right. Yeah. very difficult ways. So- It is. It is. So in some ways, it's like the women that have been through it can look back and go, "Oh, okay." Like- Yes, yes. And, and I sort of talk to you through the lens of retrospect from the menopausal place. And, and this is the, this is the sort of beef, for want of a better word, that I have with the dominant narrative that speaks about perimenopause because what I'm seeing in the dominant narrative with regards to perimenopause, and this is what Lara Briden and Professor Geraldine Pryor talk about too, is that the majority of people are taking menopausal hormone therapy and treating perimenopause as if it is a mini menopause and not as if it is an entirely different phase, which is what it is. It is an entirely different phase. So, so, so the dominant narrative skews it as well. There's a book called The Perimenopause Revolution. It treats perimenopause as if it's minimenopause. Um, uh, the, the, um, the, the new Mary Claire Haver book, the new perimenopause treats perimenopause as if it is mini menopause. So they've missed the mark. They say the right things, but it's the half truth. "Oh, this is a transition state. It's so difficult. We need estrogen and progesterone. "It's like, Oh, don't need estrogen and progesterone yet Yeah. Because we're not in menopause. We may need progesterone, but we're not yet ready for the estrogen because our estrogen is actually potentially two to three times higher than that of our fertile years. So you're putting perimenopausal at women at risk by treating it as if it's many menip- many menopause as well, you know? So there, there, there is a confusion in the dominant narrative and in the space. Yeah. So- Yeah, that's so important. Thank you for, yeah, bringing that up again because Or just defining that because it's true, isn't it? And it's what, that's what gets reflected back, like in, when we talk to women, like in my surface, in my daily life- mm-hmm. talking to women, and if, if they Because of the Western medical model, so if they're going- Yes. see their GPs or gynecologists or whoever they're seeing- Yes, they're getting estrogen straight away. Yeah. Like it's like just totally miss, miss- Yes. that the holistic- Correct. phase, like the wholeness of it is what we're missing. Well, the problem with the dominant narrative in this space is that the doctors that are currently practicing did not learn about perimenopause. They only learned about menopause. So you've got a perimenopausal woman, you know, coming in with what looks like and what feels like a menopausal presentation or symptom, but they don't understand the underlying physiology and they give them the menopausal solution in a perimenopausal phase. And so many of these women actually end up feeling worse or predispose themselves to endometrial cancer, weight gain, additional histamine responses because of the fact that they are actually in a high estrogen as opposed to a low estrogen state and they're being given more estrogen, i.e., They're getting a fuel poured on that fire and they wonder why they don't feel good. Initially, they can feel great because estrogen is a bit of an effervescent drug. That's why it's so kind of addictive because the brain loves it. The brain loves estrogen. It's, and it's very addictive, actually. If you have to come off estrogen, you've got to taper it down. Whereas progesterone, you can be on one day and off the next, no problem. But, um, so these women i- ire- kind of initially get the estrogen, and then after two or three or six or 12 months, they're starting to feel shit again. And it's like, well, yeah, because you don't have enough progesterone and you have too much estrogen, and now you're putting on weight, your skin's going haywire, your mood's going haywire, and you're also potentially addicted to estrogen now in the wrong phase. Yeah, so it's very dangerous, very dangerous to confuse those two phases, you know? They couldn't actually be further apart than chalk and cheese, but they're being treated as if they're the same thing. Yes. Mm. Mm. Yeah. And, and, and I do go through that in one of the learnings in the next few weeks. I do talk about the fact that perimenopause is not menopause yet. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But you're right, and it's exactly what we see in the dominant narrative now, you know, school moms and every Oh, I just, you know, if someone says something in jest, there's even a comment around, like, "Oh, just slap on some more of the estrogen, you'll be fine." Yeah. And it's like, "Oh, wrong hormone." Yeah. "You actually need to slap on some more progesterone." Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, wow. It's, um- Yeah. it feels really big, you know? It feels like such But, but in a way that's exciting, you know what I mean? It is. It's exciting because, um, there's so much potential, you know- Yes. the room of growth and evolution- Yes. here. Yes. Yes. Which is exciting, I think. And, and I think that there's so much untapped knowledge and information that I don't even think we're even aware of yet. We're not even scratching the surface. Like, and I also love the idea of, you know, Yanni and I doing this together, and I love the idea of you and your husband doing this together. Like, like I said, like, my, my life goals are, I wanna be the 80-year-old couple still holding hands, going for a little swim in the ocean with our big 80-year-old bottoms cuddling each other and having a big hug and a kiss and still being so connected. Mm. And I think, I think that we can achieve that if we take them on the journey with us. Mm. You know? And, and I, I, I see this in, in, in, in, um, uh, matriescence as well, and y- you definitely would've seen this, and I, I, I'm very aware of your, your, your intelligence. Y- you know, there are those women who, who sort of, uh, keep the knowledge management of the baby to themselves, and then there are those women who are happy to share it with the fathers, because they, they feel like that's, that's their domain, or that's their power structure. Like, oh, uh, uh, oh, he just doesn't know how to take care of the children, kind of thing, you know, as opposed to going, "Just let him look after his own kids, let him figure it out his own way, or why don't you show him how to change the nappy, or show him how to do it in a way that the kids like it. I think, I think that same thing, you get those same divides between couples in perimenopause and menopause as well, and I don't think that that's the most successful relationship container to be working towards. I think that's what creates the divide as opposed to, "Hey, baby, I've got privy to, and I've got an internal lens going on in here, and there's an internal landscape change, and I know you can't see it, but I know that you must have some sort of sense that something is going on and that you're outside of this, but I wanna bring you in. Mm, yes. I wanna bring you in and I wanna talk about all these things that I don't know the answers to. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I think that's empowering too, you know? It is. Yeah. That's really empowering. I wanna talk to you about these things that I don't know the answers to. Like, wow, okay, cool. That means we could go on this adventure together and potentially figure it out together too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. It's good. It is good. I, um, yeah. And confronting and a challenge. Oh, absolutely. And, and I think it's like, it's such a melting pot. It's like you're in- It is. children. You are on every level, every single level. Yeah. Phoenix, baby, Phoenix. Yes. But Mel, can I just thank you because that is such an important question and it comes from a place of insight and it's, you've already got, you've already got that. Like, you've already got that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So thank you so much for your contribution. I really, really, really admire your insight. Mm. Yeah. And I thank you for your questions. They're brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. 'Cause I was like, I was just like, I just need to hear Kirsty, like, talk to you know, like, it's almost like you just need that. Yeah. And to, like, just to reflect, you know what I mean? And, like, go, "Oh, yeah." It's like you- Yeah. it's like keys get unlocked within us, you know what I mean? Totally. And, and I wanna give you full permission to, like, take this, run with it, and then, and then tell me about the beauty that comes because, because we haven't been having these conversations, there's so much untapped information and beauty in every single perimenopausal woman that we have not yet shared. Exactly. So let's continue to do that so that we all grow and learn, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Feel that so much. Awesome. Excellent. Excellent. Such a pleasure. Take it easy, gorgeous, lady. You too. Rest, rest, rest. Yes. Cheers. Bye-bye. Full permission.