Breaking Ground in Gender-Neutral Language within the Classroom

Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 29
Grab your headphones and get ready for an enlightening conversation that takes us into the heart of what it means to be a queer educator today. Our guest, Nicky Meindl (they/them), isn't just any teacher; they're a non-binary trans and queer special education trailblazer who opens up about the colorful tapestry of their life and the courage required to navigate identity in a not-always-accepting world. From the freewheeling days of band camp to the stricter corridors of academia, Nicky's story is a vivid illustration of resilience that challenges norms and champions authenticity.

Language is a living, breathing entity that reflects the ever-changing society we inhabit. In this episode, we tackle the complexities and joys of incorporating gender-neutral pronouns in the classroom, with Nicky providing insight into the delicate balance of fostering respect in a space still riddled with resistance. Revel in the adaptability of language—particularly Spanish—as we discuss its evolution to be more inclusive, even when faced with generational pushback. Hear Nicky's personal experiences with anti-queer sentiment, and how they navigate these waters with the grace and wisdom that only a dedicated educator can embody.

We conclude our journey by casting a hopeful gaze towards the horizon of LGBTQ+ advocacy and education. I reveal the struggles of being the singular queer teacher at my school, the energy it takes to carve out supportive networks, and the plans afoot to unite queer educators come 2024. Nicky and I reflect on the importance of correct pronoun use, the power of leading by example, and the shared dream of a future where all students and educators can thrive, celebrated for the full spectrum of who they are. This is more than just an episode; it's a beacon for what inclusive education can, and should, look like.

Transcript

Bryan (he/they): 0:27

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton, my pronouns are he/t hey, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Nicky Meindl. How are you doing, Nicky Great? How are you doing, Nicky Great? How about you? I'm doing fantastic.

Nicky (they/them): 1:14

Thank you and, in retrospect, I just want to verify that.

Bryan (he/they): 1:15

I said your name correctly. Yes, you did. I spit things out sometimes and I'm like wait, is that what we discussed? My brain's going like 7,000 miles a minute. Why don't you take up this opportunity to go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners?

Nicky (they/them): 1:30

Awesome, yeah, so hi, my name is Nicky Meindl. My pronouns are they/t hem/ theirs. I am a middle school special education teacher, I am non-binary trans and I am queer. I use queer as kind of an umbrella term because I don't have all the fancy ways to describe myself at this point, because there are so many words that I had to go with queer at a certain extent.

Bryan (he/they): 1:52

And really it is an umbrella term. I do a lot of research and if you go to queer theory, it's really just like set apart from yes, and I'm like I'm okay with that. I think that's good. I am apart from whatever you think people need to be. I'm not that, I am apart from that. So I love it as an umbrella term because I think it does include a lot more people that way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's take a journey back in time, if you will indulge me, and can you tell me a little bit what it was like for you as a queer youth?

Nicky (they/them): 2:34

Yeah. So I didn't really come into my queerness really until my later high school years, and a large part of it was due to surprise, surprise band, band camp. If everyone's ever heard of the word band camping, something go gay and they would be right. Band camp is very queer in all respects of being separate from everyone, and also very inclusive and wonderful. That's why I liked it so much.

Nicky (they/them): 3:00

Um, and honestly, that honestly gave me the best way of kind of delving into my identity where there weren't really any expectations. It was just kind of like be yourself, we're going to go with whatever you say. Like you say, your pronouns are this one day and this another day. Okay, cool, next item on the agenda. And so it was really nice to have that space to kind of just try out, okay, what works for me, what fits for me, and then kind of like, how do I want to navigate the world as myself?

Nicky (they/them): 3:29

Because outside of that I really didn't have a great place. I grew up in more of a high affluent and fairly white area. I am Mexican. I was probably one of five Mexicans in my entire school, high school at the time and so when you're one of five Mexicans, you know all of them, and so it's super fun when you try to like go outside the norm, because no one seems to know quite what to do with you, because, oh well, you're Mexican, so you should fall into this category. But you pass as white sometimes too, so you should pass this category and I'm like okay, consider.

Nicky (they/them): 4:02

I don't fit into either of those boxes. This, this, doesn't work for me um so a large part of it was navigating my identity within my other identities, because it was very difficult for me to figure out what my place was and how I wanted to interact with the world, just because I didn't have as much guidance or like people I could look to, because it was in a very also conservative area that there were a couple of out queer and trans folks and they were ridiculed.

Nicky (they/them): 4:34

They weren't spoken highly of like I was in the band world so I got a little lucky, so I had a little bit more support.

Bryan (he/they): 4:40

But even then, if people knew you were queer, they just didn't say anything. They tried.

Nicky (they/them): 4:44

I was like, okay, if we ignore it, it'll be fine. And it's like the only way you could be acceptable is knew you were queer. They just didn't say anything. They're trying to like, okay, if we ignore it, it'll be fine. And it's like the only way you could be acceptable is if you were the gay best friend. And because I didn't fall into the gay cis male box, they were like, yeah, no, so we're not going to talk about your identity. And I'm like this helps no one.

Nicky (they/them): 5:01

And so definitely it is something that took me a while to get into and I wasn't fully out until my undergrad years, because it was the first time I felt that I could really kind of not necessarily reinvent myself, but like reinvest into myself to try to figure out OK, this is a new clean slate.

Nicky (they/them): 5:21

Maybe some people here will have seen me from high school, but it's unlikely because I was the band nerd. I stayed on my half of campus. I was the only music senior who went off to do music after undergrad or after high school, and so not people are going to recognize me. So I might as well try whatever works, my queer identity in the context of like school with my friends in a community and in a workplace environment, just because I had been working like with kids since I was 13, because that's just what happens when you need to work the work wherever you get the work, which was, for me, working with kids and so I I had been working for a while and so this is the first time I actually got to be like okay, what does it look like for me being able to be queer, be out and trans also in a new space?

Bryan (he/they): 6:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of validity to what you just said about one band kids band geek here.

Bryan (he/they): 6:22

Very proud band geek and also found my queer identity kind of through that, um, and also my first boyfriend, right, yeah um so so, yeah, um, but what I think is so interesting is just like the liberation that many of us feel when we go to college, and when I started college, I started at a commuter school and so there was a core group of people that I knew from high school that went there also, but we were like we saw each other once every couple of weeks, as opposed to every single day, and I think that having that freedom to be away from the people you grew up with just kind of helps you. I like your wording on it Reinvest in yourself, yeah, yeah. So, um, did you find yourself going on your sexuality and kind of gender journey together, or did those things come in like phases, and for like, I'm not using, you know, the trigger word, phase it's a phase, but I mean like in the steps?

Nicky (they/them): 7:35

yeah, no, I get it. Um, it came more like like progressive steps, like the queerness came first, followed by the transness though I should have probably known I was trans just from all the queer shit that I was doing. So it's like I look back and I'm like you should have known a long time ago. You just didn't have the language for any of it. Yep, um, I definitely am glad that I didn't have to go through both at once, because I think that would have been a little overwhelming for me, just because I've talked to my friends who were like, yeah, I figured I was queer and trans at the same time and I had just panicked.

Bryan (he/they): 8:18

And I'm like I had a delay so I wasn't sure of anything. Then you get some strategies on how to like assess your life changes when they come six, you know, in succession, as opposed to like all at once. Not saying that this is how life works and you get to choose, but, like, I do think that, like, for those of us who kind of explore these, these different areas, and kind of experience them in succession, explore these different areas and kind of experience them in succession it's a lot easier than folks who have to go through everything all at once, thinking about your kind of your childhood and your own experiences, how do you see those experiences and how they impacted you playing out in your classroom and how you relate to your students?

Nicky (they/them): 9:08

I think it definitely impacted me in that I try to find ways to connect with my students that like I guess my teachers never did, because I guarantee I like I look back and I'm like that teacher was definitely queer.

Nicky (they/them): 9:21

I might not have known it and they might not have said anything, but there is no way that teacher wasn't queer. And so I want it's made me be more intentional with putting my queer and trans identity into my classroom and with my students so that they can see okay, it's not some taboo word that we can't say, that we can't talk about and been very intentional in that when they ask because they always ask usually it takes them about two weeks to finally cave and be like, even after I've introduced myself, my pronouns are this it took them about two weeks to finally get over that fear of I have to, I'm going to ask, and they come out with the Nix. I don't want to offend you, but and I'm like you're not going to offend me, I promise Just ask me what you're going to ask me and I already know what their question is.

Nicky (they/them): 10:08

Why do you use they, them? And I let them ask. Because I want them to get over that fear of wait. Why do you use that? Because they're curious, they're kids, they want to know. They don't get to talk about it outside of this class. So I'm like them because that feels the most comfortable for me. I tried other pronouns. They did not feel right and then I landed on they, them, and that's what just felt the most authentically me. And they're always like huh, okay, and sometimes they get it. Other times I have, because they're middle schoolers. They like to just argue with anything I say and they're like but wait, how can you be there? You're one person and I'm like. I know English is terrible and I have a lot of English language learners, so a lot of them agree yeah, English is terrible. I hate learning English and I'm like you're fair, I'm not going to tell you it's easy. And then a lot of them are also Spanish speaking.

Nicky (they/them): 11:00

First, so they're like okay, but then how does that work in Spanish? And I'm like, oh boy, where do I start with that? Where does it come into Spanish? Because, like there isn't really a gender neutral way in Spanish, it's always default to masculine. So like even saying teacher in Spanish is maestro or maestra. There's always the O or the A at the end. There's been a little bit of like development in the language in that a lot of some people have started to be like well, instead of o or a, I'm like it's my strength to make it more neutral, and a lot of people who are of the older generation spanish are like that is wrong. You are defiling my language and I'm like one, it's not even your language. So shush and two. Language evolves over time. There are slang words now in spanish that were not around about 50 years ago that you all accept. The world is law, so things can change yeah, absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 11:57

It's funny. I talked about this, uh, on my last episode because I was speaking with someone who was filipinx and, um, it's the first time that I had heard the X applied to another culture outside of like Latinx. And we've had this discussion about the older generation of folks being like no, this is wrong and you can't say things like that. And the development of like Latine, and for me, just as being like a linguist and understanding a lot of languages like, and the origin of these kind of romantic languages coming from there, um, you can find the a or the e being representative of gender neutral term. Yeah, so, but that's just me geeking out on stuff, so let's move on.

Bryan (he/they): 13:10

Have you ever been put? I mean, you work in middle school, so you know, bless you. Uh, it's funny because I could never see myself in elementary but I could never like emphasis, giant letters see myself teaching middle school. And it's ironic because when I was getting my teaching certification, I was like I'm going to be a middle school social studies teacher and then I did my observations and I was like no, no, thank you.

Nicky (they/them): 13:36

That was me with high school, so I get it.

Bryan (he/they): 13:39

That's funny because high school was where it was at for me. I was like I can deal with this, because at some points you could just be like you're acting like a child. Sit down, you're supposed to be 17, like at your age, you know. But middle school it's a little bit harder to do that because they're acting their age. Yeah, definitely so. Have you ever had to deal with any kind of anti-queer situations, whether or not they came from students or parents or community members or administration?

Nicky (they/them): 14:11

Yeah, so surprisingly in my school the queer population is a little small. I think small that are out. There is definitely a larger one because I can see where they're popping up I'm like, hey, you're one of us, I'm just waiting for you to say something. But it's a smaller population of those who are like out and proud and you can. And part of why I think that is is because there are comments that are made by predominantly the middle school boys. I won't say it's only them, but it's predominantly my middle school boys who make comments like that's so gay.

Nicky (they/them): 14:49

And I'm like, no, absolutely not, we're not, we're not even doing that right now. No, or they'll use fag. And I'm like, no, we don't, I don't care who you heard that from. I don't care how pissed off you are at someone. You can be angry and hurt by someone, but you don't ever say that Like I. No, I draw my line there.

Nicky (they/them): 15:11

And so it's hard because, like my kids see this and they a lot of teachers don't address it, they just kind of go, don't say that and they just leave it that and they don't give them okay, this is why we don't say this or hey, let's not. Because of whatever the reason is there's a lot of times you can give the kids a reason hey, like, for example, we don't like make fun of, not like we don't draw nazi symbols on things because that's not okay. Why? Because, because because things, nazis did a lot of terrible, horrible things, so we don't want to at all show that we represent them. And they're like okay, that makes sense.

Nicky (they/them): 15:46

But then you go talk about being gay and they're like oh, just don't say it. And I'm like okay, but give them a reason why they're smart enough to know that there's probably a reason why they shouldn't say it. But when you make it more taboo, they but there's probably a reason why they shouldn't say it. But when you make it more taboo, they tend to be like oh well, I can say it again later and I'm like no, no, no, no, no. I'm just going to draw my line in the sand here. You don't say this, because this is not okay, because it sounds like you are making fun of people who are queer, who are gay, and I don't think that's what you're trying to do. And they're like okay, well then, don't use it. Don't say that If you mean that you're pissed off at someone and you want to tell them I'm angry at you or you think that's a ridiculous comment to make.

Bryan (he/they): 16:22

Tell them that's a ridiculous comment to make.

Nicky (they/them): 16:24

Or, like I've told them before you can't deal with it yourself, come tell me and I will deal with it. And I know some of the kids don't have to get over that fear because how you're handling it right now isn't okay.

Bryan (he/they): 16:41

Yep, I think it's funny because sometimes middle school and high school culture feels a little bit like jail, where they're like, you know, snitches, get stitches and stuff like that, and I'm just like y'all, you're 14. Calm down, um, we, we aren't in prison here. This is not a prison drama. You're, you're literally just, you know, making sure that you handle a conversation, and I think you're you're spot on with the. We need to give them a reason why with this, because, literally, if we don't explain our why when we're teaching people, they are not going to be engaged in the learning. Yeah, and so it's like how does that not make sense that we should be addressing all situations in the same way? If we're trying to teach them that, it's not okay to say that you're trying to teach them something, and we would always go to our why when it comes to trying to teach them something. Yeah, and I always go to our why when it comes to trying to teach them something. Yeah, and I think about.

Bryan (he/they): 17:41

I think about it a lot like with erasing the r word.

Bryan (he/they): 17:43

That's been a huge thing the past, um, like decade or so, and it's the same kind of situation where you have, you give a reason and then, all of a sudden, it becomes a non-issue.

Bryan (he/they): 17:55

It's a particularly tough situation for theater students, though, because because we have not theater students, but musicians, because we have to read sheet music, and sheet music uses Italian words, and there are words like ritardando, which means to slow down, and so then, like you see it on the page, and especially amongst middle school and high school students, you start getting like people giggling and whatnot, and so it's hard, but it's that kind of repetition in giving a reason why that really reinforces this idea that language can change, and that's exactly what we've been talking about the whole time, right? Yeah, you know going, uh, you know latino, latina, latine, um and um, and just kind of this evolving idea of like things that were okay to say are just not okay to say, and I think it's mind-boggling when people are like, but I've always. I think it's mind boggling when people are like, but I've always said this and it's been okay. Like you're trying to erase my culture by saying this is like, no, like, maybe we're just trying to not like treat people bad.

Nicky (they/them): 19:10

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 19:11

And maybe your culture needs to adjust, as it were. I don't know. That always is-boggling to me. Yeah, um, overall, do you feel like you have a supportive administration where you teach?

Nicky (they/them): 19:26

um, yes and no um because, like I was already, I have been out since I started teaching, so it's no secret that I use they, them pronouns. I introduce myself with that to all staff, to all faculty, to my students, so they all know it's not any big secret. That being said, even though I wear a lanyard that has my pronouns, that says my pronouns are they them, I wear a pin that says they. Because I present masculine, almost all teachers not all of them, but almost all of them will go he.

Nicky (they/them): 19:59

And while I can sometimes correct, a lot of teachers do not like that I correct because it makes them, in their mind, look bad in front of the kids because they got something wrong. And it's like this is me being respectful to you. And with administrators it's harder because they hold so much power and it's like, okay, I want to correct you, but you also are in charge of my evaluation and I don't want to get dinged on an evaluation simply because I had the gall to correct you on my pronouns yeah, that's a tough situation and that's where power dynamics are a huge concern, right especially in educational facilities.

Bryan (he/they): 20:36

Like teachers have power over students, there's an authority level there and the administration has an authority level over teachers and it's almost like we live in this environment of fear. You know, back to school being like prison, um, because if you overstep or if you do something that doesn't feel like an overstep but the other person feels slighted, then there's this worry of like retaliation and that sucks. It sucks that it's something as simple as making sure that they are addressing you the way that you want to be addressed and that you're not given the respect for them to retain that information, because it's really not that difficult.

Nicky (they/them): 21:23

It's not, and I purposely wear protons on everything I own because I want to be like you. Have no loving excuse because I am literally wearing it right in center on my chest, so you have no excuse whatsoever to claim well, I didn't know. It's right here. If you're looking at me, you will see it yep, absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 21:41

It's like the, and the other part of it like drives me crazy is that I'll put them in in my um email as well and my name is also in my email and like both of those things will be wrong at times and I, you know, I use he they, so I'm not um concerned if he pops up because I use both pronouns, but like there is a level of respect for other people that I think is kind of slowly deteriorating in the digital world where literally the information is right in front of you and you still do it wrong. Yeah, whether it be spelling someone's name wrong or using their pronouns incorrectly or using the incorrect pronouns, like it's an intentional thing that you're doing and I have a hard time with. I forgot because you're right in that, you're. There are many of us who put it everywhere it's on a lanyard, it's on a pin, it's on the email, it's all over the place and there's no reason for you to have missed it. It's negligence at that point.

Nicky (they/them): 22:57

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 22:58

Yeah. So thinking about your own educational experience and what it's been like for you if you were to sit down with a first-time teacher or someone who's going to work in the school for the first time and they were concerned about being their authentic self in the classroom, what kind of advice would you give them?

Nicky (they/them): 23:22

I definitely think the kind of advice I would give them would center around finding a space to be you that doesn't require as much effort, because, like, don't get me wrong, like there are days where it takes everything in me not to lose my mind because people are misgendering me left and right, despite corrections. But it helps that I have found at least a little bit of a space, or I've made a little bit of a space where that is less of a battle.

Nicky (they/them): 23:52

By that I mean I helped start my middle schools or the middle school that I'm working at, their QSA. Basically we just call it Queer Club because originally, or we call it Pride Club, but the school the district doesn't love the word Pride Club.

Nicky (they/them): 24:06

They want us to call the school the same and then the Pride Club. I just kind of pretended I didn't know and went it's Pride Club. If you don't know what that means, oh no, what a shame. But everyone who needs to know that will know. And so it helps because I have that space with other queer and trans, with queer and trans students who are like okay, I am trying to get my own name and pronouns sorted out. I'm trying to figure out my own identity.

Bryan (he/they): 24:33

And if I?

Nicky (they/them): 24:33

mess up. And if they mess up, they are always quick to be like oh sorry, I meant this, oh this or oh, I think, or they'll correct other people. And it feels good to be in a space where there's like, because it's not just like, okay, like you have to support Everyone just does it because they can. And so, honestly, making that space, whether that be with students or, if you're able to find it, with fellow queer teachers believe me, I wish there were teachers on my campus.

Nicky (they/them): 25:03

I am the only one at this point, so I am making this space all on my own, but just to kind of find that community, but to also kind of reach out to a greater community because, like me, I don't have any other queer or trans teachers at my school.

Nicky (they/them): 25:15

I am the only one. There is one queer speech language pathologist, but I barely ever see her because I don't. She only works with kids outside of the classroom, so I don't ever see her. So I have made intentional moves to try and find queer and trans teachers outside of my school to be like okay, please tell me I'm not the only one going through this, because if I am, I'm going to lose my mind. And so, having that kind of outside support system of people who are like either share your identity or very much affirm your identity really kind of helps ground you in your work, because otherwise it gets really hard to go back day in and day out where you're in a space where, yeah, technically they recognize you but they're not going to honor you beyond just your name's, correct.

Bryan (he/they): 26:02

Absolutely. I think that's one. It's magic to be able to create that space, so even if you have to do it on your own, it is absolutely worthwhile to do it. Um, and then two, it's uh, it's mind-boggling what you said about the district, uh, and wanting it to be like school name, pride club. Because here's the thing, folks, it changes the meaning. There's a difference between, like I don't know, I'm a university of idaho student right now getting my master's. So we'll just say you know, vandals, pride versus pride club. Yeah, because the emphasis on the first is on vandals, not on pride, and so I think it's important that you make that step. And sometimes it's feigning ignorance, and that's a beautiful thing.

Nicky (they/them): 27:02

Um, oops, I didn't know, so forgive me I'm basically asking for forgiveness rather than permission at this point, absolutely um, and so creating that space and just finding a space, whether it's virtual or whatnot, is it's really necessary?

Bryan (he/they): 27:20

and I'm just gonna put out there, folks, that teaching while queer will have an online community coming in 2024. So, um, you know, if you need that space, I will be making one, um, so, you know, keep your ears, uh, open and look for announcements on instagram, but it's probably going to start kicking off in the summer. Um, because that's one of the things I wanted to do with this is, now that our voices are being heard, I want to make sure that we can then also connect to each other. Yeah, so, thinking about your experience in academia, both as a student and as a an educator, what do you think the school community can do to be more inclusive of 2SLGBTQIA plus folks, and I mean this in general? I used to ask the question specifically of students, but, like, the more that I do this work, the more I realize that the teachers need support too.

Nicky (they/them): 28:22

And honestly, I think the biggest thing and this is is gonna sound very like calling for an educator is to educate them more, because I have kids who don't realize what it means like who. I say lgbtq and they look at me like I've grown a third head. Or I say non-binary and like it goes sailing over their head.

Nicky (they/them): 28:41

Obviously I explain to them, but I can't explain to every single one of like the 600 students in the middle school at the moment, because I don't see all 600 of them. Um, and that even includes the teachers who are like what's non-binary? Mean, I'm like, okay, I get it, you've been in teaching for a while, but also at this point you have at least one like we have a couple trans kids at our school. That at this point you should know what trans means, what non-binary means, when you have students like that at your school, because you actually need to support them and not just be like you exist, Thumbs up for you. No, no, no, no.

Nicky (they/them): 29:21

Like that means correcting pronouns. That means correcting names of not only the teachers who mess up, but also the students who mess up. And I'm not wanting people to be like badgered or taken down because they mess up a name or pronouns. I just want them to be like hey, this is the correct way, Correct yourself and then move on Like if you're intentionally doing it, then yes, let's have a conversation. Why are we intentionally doing this? But for most of the time, the kids aren't intentional about this. They just don't know any better. Because they're kids. They're not expected to know everything.

Nicky (they/them): 30:04

Teachers on the other hand some of them just don't know better because they've never lived that experience. I am sometimes the first trans person that they've ever interacted with, which is terrifying when some of them have been in education for like 20 years. Because I'm like, I am not the first trans person you've interacted with. I promise you, like in 20 years of teaching, you will have seen at least a couple of trans kids, if not lots more. So a lot of it for me is just educating about what is it, what do these terms mean? And then providing like spaces for students to be. Because, like when I even started Pride Club with my school, I the person who was running it apparently last year, was an ally and I'm like, okay, that's great, but also I feel like there should be a person in the person who was running it apparently last year was an ally and I'm like, okay, that's great, but also I feel like there should be a person in the community who is running this club. Like I want to have your support a hundred percent. I would love your support running this club because I am one person and I cannot do everything, but I feel like it should be a queer or trans person at the head, simply because they have lived experiences and they're going to understand what these kids are going through a lot more than an allied teacher is, and there was a little bit of pushback. Well, I've been doing it for years, just fine. I've never gotten a single complaint and it's like okay one. You're a teacher, so they wouldn't complain to you because there's a power dynamic there, so of course they wouldn't say anything. If they did, they would fear getting written up and that's fair. Most of them would have.

Nicky (they/them): 31:28

But, like, you have to accept that you can't know everything. And even with the kids in the Pride Club, like one of the first things I told them I don't know everything, I know a lot and I will help you with whatever I know. Whatever I don't, I will help you figure out. So if I don't know something and you don't know something, cool, let's figure out together. Maybe I've even offered let's bring someone in from our local LGBT center, let's like have someone else who is queer come talk about it, let's bring someone in from the community to talk about this thing, just because I don't know everything, and just owning up to the kids of, look, I'm not perfect, I do not know everything, but I know something that can't help, and I know at least a place to start, and a lot of times, just taking that first step of okay, this is where we can start is huge because it's like okay, they're like we want to do these things, but where do we start?

Nicky (they/them): 32:15

And that happens all with teachers too where they're like okay, I want to be supportive, but I don't even know how to start supporting you. It's like, okay, well, well, start with names and pronouns if you mess up correct and just teaching them. It's okay to make a mistake, because a lot of teachers, especially old teachers, are afraid of making mistakes that they just won't, I won't do, who won't even use my pronouns like pronouns, period, we'll just say my name, that's it. They have forgotten pronouns because they're so afraid of messing up. Even when I've been like it's're going to mess up, Like you're still learning, but they're just like, no, no, no, I can't, I can't. It's like it's fear, it's a new thing, but you got to be okay with messing up, otherwise you're not going to get anywhere, and so it's hard when it's like, well, I've been taught by so for so long that it's bad to make mistakes and bad to mess up with these things and I'm like, if you're doing it intentionally, then yes, that is bad, and then I have every right to be mad at you, as does the student.

Nicky (they/them): 33:09

The student would have every right to get mad at you if you are intentionally messing up their pronoun and names, but if you're actively making an attempt and going, if you're saying wrong pronouns without immediately correcting, they're not going to be mad. They're going to probably be a little up but they'll move on pretty quickly if they can tell this person is actively trying everything in their power to gender me correctly, to name me correctly. The kids are pretty understanding. Now I'm not going to say that every kid is like that. Some kids are going to be angry with their messed up pronouns at all. I won't try to speak for all of them, but at least for a good chunk of them. They're going to be understanding because they want to have a space where they are recognized and honored for who they are, rather than having to sit in the closet and just be and hope that someone will notice them yep, absolutely, and I'm right there with you.

Bryan (he/they): 33:52

I've experienced students where they are like it's fine, that person messed up, they'll fix it, and then other students were like this is the end of the world because this person messed up and it ruins their whole day or week. And I'm just like, okay, I need you to take a breath. It's gonna going to be okay. People make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes and you're going to want people to take a breath and work with you and and know that you can change. Um, but it's hard at that age because a lot of things get taken.

Nicky (they/them): 34:21

Personally, so I can understand.

Bryan (he/they): 34:24

I can understand a little bit from a from a teacher perspective. On like gosh, I don't want to make a mistake. I'm so worried about it because things can get blown out of proportion. But at the same time if you're not putting in any effort, then that's a bigger problem and it won't be blown out of proportion. It will be a justifiable anger coming to you. So I think that's that's spot. At this point I'm going to go ahead and turn over the mic to you and you get to ask me a question to kind of round things out.

Nicky (they/them): 34:55

Like, if you could look forward like, say, even 20 years for education, what would you hope progress will have made for the community?

Bryan (he/they): 35:03

I, I think, one that the necessity of a GSA will be less, and what I mean by that is like a QSA and a GSA. They're like fantastic resources but they're built out of necessity, and that's the same kind of situations that occurred. It is the non-alcoholic version of things that were happening with, like Stonewall and other bars from the 1920s on, where there were these secret places or exclusive places for people to be themselves. And I feel like GSAs are great and they're a great statement of solidarity, but at the same time, it's almost used in a way where it's like that's where the queer kids get to be queer, yeah, and so I would like to see us evolve to a point where the campus culture is just welcoming and allows people to belong, regardless of who they are. That is my hope for the next 20 years.

Bryan (he/they): 36:20

I don't know if that will happen. If that'll happen, I especially with the way that politics keep going back and forth and like we've made this hard swing back to like a time that is before even I was born. Um, yeah, with this animosity and hatred and you know the fact, the same things are being spewed from the 1980s and anita bryant um, that you know we're like just about gay people, and before gay males, and now it's like all queer people, um, and so the fact that, like here, I am almost 40 and people are using the rhetoric that was that was used when I was a toddler, um, again, is disheartening. So where are we going to be in 20 years? I don't know.

Bryan (he/they): 37:07

Hopefully the swing will swing way back and we won't have elections where we have, you know, virginia's first transgender woman state senator. Yeah, we'll have. We'll have reached a point where every state has had a representative. That is a part of the community, um, and and then that will filter into schools. And the thing is like someone said someone on something on a podcast recently about um schools a lot of people think schools are where you can change the world, but schools are really just a reflection of the way the world is, and so, ultimately, in order for schools to become a place that is truly understanding and belong and focus on belonging, society has to do that, and right now, with the media and social media and the ability to create videos and images and make them seem real when they're actually fabrications, and that being circulated is just creating a lot of division, and so we're not going to get a point to a point of belonging if we are continually focused on division.

Nicky (they/them): 38:22

That makes sense no, that makes sense yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 38:25

So that's why my goal is I would like to see culture on campuses change so that it's truly focused on belonging, because I don't really. I think it's a word that people throw out and they say that's what they're doing, but then in action they're really not. Yeah, definitely, yep. Well, Nicky, thank you so much for spending your afternoon with me and coming on the podcast and sharing your story. I really appreciate it and I've enjoyed our time talking today.

Nicky (they/them): 38:52

Thank you for talking to me. I had a lot of fun.

Bryan (he/they): 38:54

Absolutely, and all of you listening wherever you are. I hope you have a great rest of your day. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did make sure to subscribe, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to www. teachingwhilequeer. com and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.