The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

Naturopathic Wisdom for Pre conception and Fertility with Nicole Haak

• Liz Walton and Helen Zee • Season 2 • Episode 6

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Nicole Haak, an experienced naturopath specializing in fertility, shares her holistic approach to preconception care and explains why preparing your body before conception is crucial for optimal reproductive health.

• Preconception care is essential because eggs and sperm take up to 100 days to develop
• Environmental toxins like microplastics are now found in reproductive tissues and act as hormone disruptors
• The gut microbiome plays a critical role in hormone metabolism and reproductive health
• Comprehensive testing should include nutrient levels, hormone profiles, thyroid function, and semen analysis
• Optimal nutrition for fertility includes three cups of vegetables daily (one being dark leafy greens), healthy fats, and protein with every meal
• Working with practitioners who have time to understand your unique health picture creates empowerment on your fertility journey

Nicole Hack takes us deep into the world of naturopathic fertility care, revealing why what happens before conception matters more than most people realize. This eye-opening conversation illuminates how the 100-day development cycle of both eggs and sperm creates a critical window for improving reproductive health through targeted nutrition, lifestyle changes, and environmental awareness.

The discussion shines a particularly powerful light on environmental toxins – a topic that deserves far more attention in fertility conversations. Nicole shares alarming research about microplastics found in reproductive tissues and explains how these endocrine disruptors silently impact hormone balance. From plastic water bottles to household cleaning products, these ubiquitous chemicals create reproductive challenges that conventional medicine often overlooks.

What sets this episode apart is Nicole's balanced approach that combines evidence-based recommendations with practical, accessible advice. Rather than overwhelming listeners with an impossible list of changes, she emphasizes starting with foundational habits: consuming three cups of vegetables daily (one being dark leafy greens), incorporating healthy fats, and ensuring protein at every meal.

The conversation also explores the fascinating connection between gut health and fertility, illuminating how the microbiome influences hormone metabolism and reproductive function. Nicole explains how comprehensive testing that goes beyond standard medical assessments can identify subtle imbalances affecting fertility, giving couples powerful information to address underlying issues.

Throughout the episode, there's a refreshing emphasis on empowerment. Working with practitioners who take time to understand your unique health picture creates agency during what can otherwise feel like a powerless waiting game. The health practices established during preconception not only optimize fertility but also support family wellbeing for generations to come.

Ready to take control of your fertility journey?

Join us at the Australian Fertility Summit on November 8th at Box Hill Town Hall, where you can meet Nicole and other fertility experts in person. The more we talk about fertility challenges, the faster we can break down stigma and help everyone access the support they deserve. Tickets are on sale now - give yourself or someone you love the gift of fertility knowledge and support.

Find Nicole Haak 

website - Home - Nicole Haak | Naturopathy for fertility, hormone imbalance, gut and thyroid health

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Liz Walton:

Welcome to the podcast. We are two Mums. We talk about it all. In the quiet little body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you. We are so glad you are here. Hello, everybody out there. Welcome to the Home of Fertility. I am Liz Walton and one of the co-founders, and I'm very excited as I get to talk today to some amazing women. And today I get to just talk to Nicole Hack, who is a fertility naturopath. How are you doing, Nicole? I'm very well, thank you, Lise. Really looking forward to today. It should be really fun. Oh, fantastic, fantastic. I think it'll be awesome too. And I just want to share some words on who you are. So the beautiful Nicole Hack, and I think you like being called Nikki, is that right? Yes, that's correct. Wonderful. Nikki is a compassionate and experienced Melbourne-based naturopath, and she works online as well as in person and dedicated to supporting clients through a holistic, evidence-based evidence-based approach. With a special interest in reproductive health, she offers care in natural fertility, IBF support, pregnancy, as well as postnatal health. Nicole also works with hormone imbalances, digestive issues, sleep concerns, mood disorders, and low energy. Oh my gosh, you're amazing. An advanced diploma in natural coffee, and a certificate in natural fertility education. She is an ATMF apprentice practitioner. And also collaborates with other health practitioners and professionals to ensure comprehensive care. Guiding clients towards improved well-being through education, empathy, and personalized personalized support. Wow. What a space to be in. And it's so wonderful for the work that you're doing. Now, Nikki, tell us how you got into this work and then why is preconception care so important?

Nicole Haak:

So when I had just finished studying to be a naturopath, so I was, you know, more of a mature age student. So, you know, came into it a little bit later in life. Um, I had just had my first child, my son. Um, and so I got a part-time job um at a natural fertility clinic, naturopathy clinic, and um for fertile ground. And I was working there in reception and um, you know, loved it, really enjoyed learning from these amazing naturopaths and acupuncturists and osteopaths and massage therapists and counsellors. Um, and just yeah, really started to, I suppose, put my teeth into more of that area of um naturopathy. Um, and you know, just looking at the beautiful herb mixes they put together and the different therapies and recommendations, yeah, just that's what sparked my deeper dive into that area. And over the over the years, I've just you know added in extra bits that I see that are important, like thyroids, so doing extra thyroid training, um, gaps, which is you know, all around gut and psychology syndrome in terms of that gut brain connection. And I've done further um gut study as such, um, just around the microbiome and and the impact of that and how to you know address um gut dysbiosis and things like that. So, and again, that relationship, you know, again, with um the gut and the hormonal imbalances that can occur. So um, you know, I've got a few other courses in my horizon again, around, you know, furthering um my, you know, my practice uh around hormone imbalances and fertility. And um, yeah, so that's sort of you know how I came to be here as such.

Liz Walton:

Awesome. And I know once you start, you can never stop learning. I love to learn. So um, yes, I love that. And again, yeah, what so why is what why is preconception care? What's what why is it important? And I I didn't understand that. So I'm really great that you can share that this now.

Nicole Haak:

Yeah, so I think you know, there's so there's so much research, Liz, you know, that's ongoing and we're learning more and more about um the human body and and the impacts of um health and disease on the human body. Um, but I think sometimes we need to take it back to basics as well. And and preconception care is that sort of bringing it back to basics, you know, how, why is it so important to make sure that you, your health is as it at its optimum, right? Prior to falling pregnant. Because, you know, the egg and the sperm, they can take up to three and a half months, around a hundred days to develop. And so often um, you know, women are pregnant before they even know it, but the the laying down of the nutrients and the development of that um that those cells of that embryo is has already started. So we need to be ahead of the game. We need to be already prepared um and you know, in a in a place of optimum health already. And it isn't just females, it's also males and um the importance of you know that egg and that sperm coming together. Um you know, there was uh I can't remember where the study was from, but it was an accumulation of information. And basically this particular study said, you know, one in six um, you know, couples you know experience infertility, one in three things to do with male male. So basically half, essentially. Yeah. So quite, you know, quite important that, you know, um wherever you can, in whatever circumstance that you have, um, that you do what you can, yeah, in terms of either getting your health optimum and or both of you. So yeah.

Liz Walton:

Absolutely. No, it's it's so important and just realizing how important now male fertility is. So, what does preconception care look like, you know, in the naturopathic perspective?

Nicole Haak:

So it's looking at lots of different factors. So, you know, looking at the person as an individual. So it is very personalized. Um, so we you know, from a naturopathic perspective, we'd be looking at, you know, from the very basics, you know, what's your diet like? Are you eating enough of the right sort of foods? Are they, you know, wholesome and nutritious? Are they containing all the right sort of nutrients that would be really important for egg development and um sperm health? Um then I'd also be looking at gut health because you can have a wonderful diet full of beautiful, nutritious food. But if you're not breaking it down properly and assimilating those nutrients into the body adequately, it's it's not going to be giving you the full benefit of those lovely nutrients that you're, you know, spending your money on. Um, you know, looking at sleep and stress and the importance that that can have on egg quality, um, you know, ovulation, um implantation, all those sorts of things. Um, looking at the immune system and making sure, you know, that there's um, you know, making sure that your immune system, most of your immune system lies in your gut. So again, that's that sort of gut relationship, really working on that and ensuring adequate nutrition. Um, looking at any uh like chronic health conditions that you might have. For example, you might have autoimmunity, maybe with your thyroid, for example, um, and making sure that you've got that under control. Um, and so that not only from a preconception perspective, that we can actually support you through pregnancy, which is the time where it can put added pressure and stress, okay, on the body. And so making sure that, yep, again, that you've got all those right nutrients that you need, um, that is, you know, supporting not only um your thyroid health, but also that developing um embryo.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Nicole Haak:

Also, you know, it looks at lifestyle, you know, are you getting enough um vitamin D sunshine? Are you exercising?

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Nicole Haak:

Um environmental toxins. I mean, that's such a huge, huge, huge area.

Liz Walton:

So huge, isn't it? Especially now. Um, yeah, yeah, please say more. Sorry.

Nicole Haak:

So um when I was I was doing uh a bit of uh I was doing an online sort of webinar around preconception care. Anyway, and so I was doing a bit of research um to sort of go with that. And um the research was saying, this particular research that I found was saying that um in China um they were doing some um semen analysis on on particular um yeah, these samples, yeah, and it showed 100% of the samples have microplastics in them. Which is just frightening when you think of frightening. So um, and then obviously also microplastics found in the ovarian follicular fluid as well. So it was mostly polystyrene, you know, that sort of breaks up and floats and yeah, just really bad. But again, what it's pointing to is these environmental toxins, microplastics, you know, whatever it may be, they're just becoming ubiquitous in our environment and how we need to do all that we can to lower our exposure and lower the tax because we're getting assaulted from you know lots of different ways and places places half the time we're not even thinking about.

Liz Walton:

So yeah. I mean, could you could you go? Where would these microplastics and so how do they get from the environment into our body?

Nicole Haak:

So we drink water, which would have microplastics in them. So, you know, really working on uh filtered water if you can, whether that be, you know, filtered drinking water, cooking water, maybe um, you know, the best possible thing would be getting a in-house in-house full filter, but you know, not everyone can afford that. So doing what you can.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Nicole Haak:

Um food, you know, so um, regardless of whether you know it's organic or whatever, I'm pretty sure we'd be exposed to some kind of things um, you know, through our food that we're taking in. Um and you know, the other the other places that we would be getting it would be through, you know, um uh facial products, body wash products, cleaning products, um cooking, you know, what we're cooking in or heating food up in, buying our foods in, you know, plastic trays with plastic wrap, you know, all of these sorts of things. We're just it's everywhere.

Liz Walton:

And it really known as our endocrine disruptors, is that correct?

Nicole Haak:

That's correct, exactly. Yeah. And they basically um those plastics or those um those endocrine disruptors, um, they basically have a chemical structure similar to estrogen. And so they weakly stimulate the estrogen receptors um in the body and cause all sorts of uh disruption to our normal hormone balance, um, which can basically lead to, I suppose, what you would call an estrogen excess type of looking um situation, which can, you know, in terms of what would that look like, you know, it can look like um polycystic ovaries, it could like look like endometriosis or fibroids or any of those um more sort of uh chronic presentations, but also it could just look like some hormonal disruption in terms of um, you know, cycles with premenstrual symptoms and you know, uh, you know, heavy bleeding or pain or um it, you know, sore tender breasts, all these things. Uh, you know, the other part of that is um it's funny, isn't it? You start talking and you go on to all these little rabbit holes.

Liz Walton:

Absolutely. This is a big rabbit hole. I mean, what I find, you know, I I now have to keep to keep telling my husband, because my daughter's now 10, and you know, I had a fertility journey of 10 years, you know, don't I don't like a microwave, but he loves a microwave. And uh, if you're gonna use the microwave only glass or uh pottery, you know, ceramics, not in plastic. And I was saying, because when you heat plastic, so um, you know, make sure if it am I right, when you heat plastic with food, it creates a chemical. Um, and um, I can't remember what that chemical is called, like dime methicone or dye something, and it's so bad for our system.

Nicole Haak:

Yeah, and it's particularly when plastics are heated, that's when the the issue is. So um even leaving a water, you know, like a disposable water bottle in the car and it heating up, like that's not good for you. Um yeah. And it's you know, it's even you know, uh perfumes and those sorts of things. I mean, IVF IVF clinics don't um don't any of the sort of lab technicians don't wear perfumes because they understand the impact of those chemicals on the um embryo development. Yeah. Exactly.

Liz Walton:

I didn't know that.

Nicole Haak:

Yeah. So, you know, it's really, really important. And it can, you know, it comes from various um places, you know, from pesticides and herbicides to yeah, plastic wrap, heating in plastic. Um, yeah, so I suppose back to the original question of, you know, what does preconception care look like, you know, from a naturopathic perspective, you know, looking at all of these areas and having that discussion and getting um, I suppose, step by step, you know, it's a lot to take in all at once. And so just really trying to sort of hone in on the immediate things and get those sort of sorted and then yeah, bring in those other areas that um need addressing um and getting people just more aware and and starting to look at their environments. Um because not only not only does it help, you know, the that immediate fertility goal, yeah, but it also has flow and effect to um future generations, right? So yeah, it's really, really important.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, because again, it's it's awareness, and I didn't know until I had to know. And for me, it was just really learning to detox my skin products, the products in um how I cleaned my house and also looking at my clothes, you know, all of these things that I did not know until something happened where I had to learn to know. And uh I find it fascinating. And then even, you know, since having my child as aware, just being aware of what's good for her. So, like you say, for the next generation, you know, because it's like it's almost going to get worse before it gets better, but you know, until we're aware, we don't know.

Nicole Haak:

That's right, exactly. And I think, you know, slowly but surely people are becoming aware. But I you know, I worry about, I mean, I've got a 14-year-old daughter, and you know, she loves the the um, you know, lots of makeup and you know, perfumes and all of those things. And yeah, you know, that's that hard balance as a parent as well, isn't it? You know, around uh allowing that exploration, but getting that understanding in terms of what's healthy and what's not for your body is very hard sometimes.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, and look, I'm absolutely glad I've just heard that because that is so much my daughter, and um that's a really good awareness for me. I should be a bit more aware of her curiosity with some of the makeup that she comes home with. You know, just like that she might come home because a friend's given it to her or something. So thank you for that. Um so right, okay, health concerns being important um on top of all of our health concerns, um, our hormone imbalance, our immune systems, digestive issues. And I think what something I'm curious about is your gut and vaginal microbiome. Um, can you enlarge on that? I think that's super interesting for people to know.

Nicole Haak:

Yeah, so the gut, um basically the bacteria in the gut um metabolizes your uh your hormones, your estrogen in particular. And um and if you've got gut imbalance or dysbiosis, um then it's going to affect that metabolism of an excretion of estrogen, right? So um, and that can lead to us, you know, again in inverted commas, that estrogen excess, okay? So irregular cycles, um, PMS symptoms like tender breaths, mood changes, um, heavy bleed, um, you know, again, endometriosis or P COS, um, but can also impact, you know, egg quality as well. So um, you know, part of making sure that that microbiome is nice and balanced is, you know, diet, making sure that you're eating what you need to eat to enhance uh that microbiome. Um and look, there's testing that you can do to sort of see what your microbiome's like, um, and you know, work from a whole food perspective to try and rebalance that, um, as well as you know, making sure you're uh eliminating every day back to that good old, you know, are you using a bowel motion every day? Yep. Um and you just in insofar as you know getting back to that basic, how are your digestion? Are you moving your bowels? You know, are you eating a wide and varied diet? Um, and you know, um, and the impact that has not only on the gut, but on the vaginal microbiome, and that impact on fertility, the certain flora that is present, and the um the impact of uh you know egg development and um egg quality and yeah very, very important.

Liz Walton:

So important. And um, yes, I suppose that makes complete sense. Gut, vaginal, and uh, but yes, just have again having that awareness. Yeah, yes. So um what what what tests would you recommend a couple has when they're you know at the beginning of trying to conceive, what's what's the best thing for them to do? What would you recommend?

Nicole Haak:

So from a um an initial sort of perspective, you know, if someone comes to see me um around fertility, I'd be looking at some nutrients. So I'd be looking at you know things like you know, what's your iron like, what's your vitamin D, what's your zinc, um 9 and B12, I'd be looking at you know, full blood exam and blood sugar, um, in insulin, um cholesterol, those sorts of things from a basic perspective. I'd also be looking at um doing some hormone testing. So, you know, looking at your etrigen and your progesterone and your follicle stimulating hormone and lutinizing hormone, um any androgens if that was um indicated, um, those sorts of things.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Nicole Haak:

Um, and then you know, if there's any autoimmunity, then you know, looking down that sort of pathway as well. Um yeah, so it really depends again, it's you know, the depends on the person in front of me at that time. Yeah, but there are some basic ones, as I mentioned uh earlier, that I would, you know, regardless of what you were coming to see me with, I would recommend. Um and from a male perspective, really doing a thorough semen analysis. Um, yeah, ensuring and that that that semen analysis is done um at a reputable organization, like one of the fertility clinics, for example, yeah, um, where they're looking at DNA fragmentation as well as all the other markers of semen quality. Yeah.

Liz Walton:

Beautiful. So from what I hear from that, it's like coming and having those first building blocks, you know, where is your body? Let's have a look at all of the markers, because then we can move forward, really.

Nicole Haak:

That's right, exactly. And then, you know, if we need to go a little bit deeper on a certain area, so um, you know, for example, for example, with thyroid, if I'm suspecting that there's some kind of thyroid impact going on, maybe, and then sorry, and I should say that thyroid would be one of those basic markers that I would look at as well. Um, but if we needed to go further down that pathway, because what is um tested, say, through your GP, for example, um, would only be TSH and less indicated. Um, so i.e. your TSH is outside the range, and then they would test further. Um, but I would if I suspected uh that there might be some thyroid you know implication, then I would recommend um going further with some thyroid testing. And again, that's a discussion um because as I said, the GEP or the you know the the um system in which we operate, uh, and uh we'll only test TSH. And if that's outside of the range, that's when they test further. But for example, from a naturopathic perspective, um, we we m we operate more from a optimal range. Okay, so for example, with TSH, um the range is 0.5 to 4. From an optimal perspective, it should be between 0.5 to sort of 1.5 to 2 at most. Um anything above two, I'd be sort of concerned. And so I would then be recommending um further testing. So unfortunately, unless your TSH is above four, you're not going to get that um support through the medical pathway. And so doing some um you might need to pay for these tests um through external organizations, uh, for example, like Nutropath, for example. Um yeah, you should go and get further testing. Yeah. Um, and you know, really have an understanding of what's going on because there are a lot more markers around thyroid than just TSH that need to be looked at and nutrients as well, right? So there's a whole lot of nutrients that play into that. And so, you know, again, I'd be looking at all of that information and making a decision, you know, where do we need to go for you, the person in front of me? Yeah.

Liz Walton:

Yeah. And this is what you know, I always say to my clients, have your crew around you. And your crew is um, you know, maybe it's a massage therapist, you know, your your fertility doctor, your naturopath, your acupuncturist, you know, and whoever that may be, because you know, I know, well, I mean, for I'll use me as an example, you know, things weren't right, they weren't working. You go and see your doctor from your doctor, they will do an amount. But you know, at the end of the day, our doctor only tends to have 10 minutes and usually a huge room full of people waiting to see them. And so, as you say, there's only so much that there's time enable to do. And then we get um sent off usually to the fertility doctor. The fertility doctor can, in a way, be the same. You've only got an amount of time. And so that's why I think the natural path is so important. You have that time to do that deep dive into whatever's needed for that client in front of you. And you, like you said, you can get and start looking at the building blocks, what's going on with all the different parts of your body hormonally, um, you know, what imbalances, you know, what's, you know, what's happening with all of your different, you know, like your microbiome. And I think this is where we, the individual that's on the journey, can start to feel that um it's sort of powerless, feeling like we've got a bit more power. I can I can understand and do something about my health now, and I can understand why or what might be going wrong and how to bring my body back into balance.

Nicole Haak:

Yeah, that's right, exactly. Um and, you know, from a naturopathic perspective, I mean, the first appointment goes for at least an hour. So we're competing with you and we're hearing your story, and we are discussing together, you know, the pathway forward. Um, and yeah, it it it does feel very the sense I get from my clients is there's a sense of empowerment that comes from that. And oh, right, there's a you know, light bulb moments. Yep, okay, understand this is what we've got to do, and this is why. Um, and you know, ultimately what what you hope for as a naturopath is that that person walks out feeling better within themselves, their health. Um, they're putting good health practices in place, um, not only for their goal, their immediate goal of you know, falling pregnant and having a family, but the family's health ongoingly. Um and, you know, yeah, they have um some really good practices and procedures as such that they've already got in place in their in their home because it's not just now, it's actually, yeah, for the entire family ongoingly.

Liz Walton:

Yeah. I I absolutely agree. I I loved my naturopath, and I still pop back and see that lovely lady. Um because I it it really helped me learn, you know, um, and take on the information and and and grow it from there in my own time and I could go back and ask questions. But I think it I just really recommend always having a naturopath for your health, you know, depending on where you are in your journey. But for me, the you know, being on my fertility journey and having a naturopath that understood fertility was to me key. So I think your work is awesome.

Nicole Haak:

Well, yeah, no, I definitely um, yeah, I I think so too.

Liz Walton:

So um I know one of our questions is is, you know, if you had a superpower, what would it be? And um, I loved your answer, so please do share.

Nicole Haak:

Well if I could be able to look into the future and um, you know, see the that the particular nutrients that I was recommending for you, or the particular herbs that I was recommending for you, that I could see that they, you know, had the um impact that I was wanting for my client in front of me. So I sort.

Liz Walton:

of you know the silver ball the silver ball i love that yes you know the the the superpower of vision so i love that this shows your passion doesn't it and i i just um i just love that and i i really admire and acknowledge and honor the work that you do on this journey because it's such a tumultuous journey i always say it's a bumpy ride and how can we traverse it in the best way possible yeah definitely yeah it absolutely can be and for um for couples being able to support them yeah just to hold them and support them in that journey um yeah is really really um quite a privilege actually and then yeah it's it's you know because you're often one of the first people that they communicate very good news to um and you can hold it very sacredly because you know that they're holding and not telling many other people yeah absolutely and you know with that is tears and understanding and I think you know it is about the naturopath is where it's a space where you get held and you get heard and supporting with ways to move forward. So you know well done you Nikki so um as we finish off um I was wondering if you could share like what would be a top tip that we can leave um the listeners with um that you would share what would be your top tip because it can it only be one top tip it can be whatever I don't know it can be and it's difficult ever to choose one but if you wanted to share I don't know one or two absolutely you can share one share a couple then because I find it difficult just to choose one.

Nicole Haak:

I'm sure I'm sure yeah that was that was rude of me cruel um one of my top tips would be to have at least uh three cups of vegetables every day um so three cups one cup being you know a dark green leafy vegetable so whether that be spinach or rocket or silver bead or broccoli or you know whatever it may be so one of those three cups being a dark green leafy and the other two you know rainbow seasonal organic where possible vegetables so good I like that yes and the second top tip would be to eat more good fats in your diet so yeah making sure you're getting those good anti-inflammatory fats um so from your you know small oily fish avocados organic butter coconut oil olive oil nuts and seeds all those yeah good fats and then lastly because I go in threes um I like threes too um you know making sure you have a source of protein at every meal yeah oh I love it those are good top tips and uh yeah excellent thank you so much for that now Nikki where can people find you I know I I have this all on the show notes but let's also let's share um um so people can hear where's the best place for people to find you thank you so um my website so nicolehark.com.au um also work at a clinic called empowered health so again empoweredhealth.com.au um I'm on uh instagram as Nicolehark underscore naturopath um yeah so that's yeah where you would find me I love it Nicole thank you for your time today for sharing your knowledge information and wisdom and I absolutely loved your top tips I wish you a beautiful day and thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to chat with us and to share your amazing work. Thank you so much for having me Liz I'm really looking forward to the Fertility Summit and meeting you in you know person. And um yeah thanks so much for having me today. I really loved it.

Liz Walton:

Enjoyed it. Absolute pleasure and yes I'm looking forward to seeing you too at the Australian Fertility Summit because it's presenting the Melbourne Fertility Expo which is happening on the um 8th of November at the Box Hill Town Hall and I'll be able to give you a squeeze and a hug. Yay so I've also just share that tickets are on sale at the moment so give that gift and maybe it might be to yourself and let's share because the more we talk about this the more then the stigma will disappear. So Nikki thank you my so much my lovely thank you Liz and good light cheering thanks for joining us at the Homer Fertility we hope today's episode brought you clarity comfort and connection. If this podcast resonated please share it leave a review or subscribe this helps us support more people that are on this path. And if you'd like to connect or share your story find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit. Remember the missing piece might be waiting in a story your body's wisdom or something new just made for you. Take care and we'll see you next time