The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

Grace Through the Fertility Storm, Finding Clarity in Fertility Decisions with Sarah Roberts

• Liz Walton and Helen Zee • Season 2 • Episode 7

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We explore how to hold yourself with care during fertility challenges, from the relentless decision-making inside treatment to the tender work of grieving and rebuilding if parenthood doesn’t happen. Counselor Sarah Roberts shares her 10-year TTC story and practical tools to separate good decisions from uncertain outcomes, honor ambivalence, and live a meaningful life either way.

• spring energy, clinic timing and why community matters
• Sarah’s decade of IVF, losses and the choice to end treatment
• naming grief and integrating longing without erasing it
• identity beyond motherhood and reclaiming other parts of self
• decision-making myths and separating decisions from outcomes
• practical models for clarity and handling ambivalence
• managing overwhelm, control loops and regret-minimization
• boundaries, self-compassion and gentle daily practices
• why the Melbourne Fertility Expo offers real access and safety


What if the path you’ve poured your heart into doesn’t end the way you hoped? We sit down with counselor and childless advocate Sarah Roberts to chart a compassionate way through fertility treatment, decision fatigue, and the possibility of a meaningful life—even if motherhood doesn’t happen. Sarah shares her 10-year TTC story, twelve reproductive losses, and the brave choice to leave treatment, offering language for grief that most clinics and timelines can’t hold.

We dig into the real reasons fertility decisions feel so heavy: myths about the “right” choice, the urge to control probabilistic outcomes, and the constant mental hum of “what else can I do?” You’ll hear practical decision-making tools that separate choices from results, honor ambivalence without getting stuck, and align next steps with your values, health, and resources. We also explore how motivation shifts over time—from early optimism to no-regrets clarity—and how to differentiate the emotional importance of a dream from the actual odds in front of you.

Along the way, Sarah models a kinder inner conversation: holding the part of you that longs to mother while reconnecting with the many other parts of your identity. We talk boundaries for baby showers and nosy questions, cultivating self-compassion as a daily skill, and finding community that replaces isolation with steady support. If you’ve ever wondered how to keep your heart intact while navigating IVF, or how to rebuild if parenthood isn’t your ending, this conversation is a balm—and a map.

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Liz Walton:

Welcome to the Home of Fertility, a space for real conversation. Expert insights about fertility, healing, and creating family. I'm Liz Watson.

Helen Zee:

And I'm Helen Zay. We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

Liz Walton:

We talk about it all. Fertility treatment, holistic support, relationships, mindset, and the emotional high athlete.

Helen Zee:

Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.

Liz Walton:

We are so glad you are here. Let's dive in. Hello, hello, hello to all of the beautiful listeners out there. This is Liz Walton from the Home of Fertility. And I am excited to speak to my next beautiful guest, who is the lovely Sarah Roberts. How are you, Sarah?

Sarah Roberts:

Oh, I'm good. I'm good. I'm getting used to this change towards summer, but I'm I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing?

Liz Walton:

I'm good. Yes, I'm loving the fact that spring is springing and everything is blooming and warmth is a bit more around me at the moment.

Sarah Roberts:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just love the timing of the fertility summit that's early November, Melbourne comes to life. Just such a beautiful time for us to connect.

Liz Walton:

Absolutely. I've learned from last year. I don't have it in winter, and I think spring is a much better time. So it is absolutely yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

And it's interesting timing in the IVF journey because we're going to talk about this in a bit, but I did 10 years of trying to conceive an IVF.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

And it is an annual journey. It's this thing where as you're coming into the end of the year and you can you can feel like December, January, the clinics are likely to close down. So kind of this comes into a little bit of stop take around what am I going to be doing next year? What does this gonna look like? So it's just beautiful timing.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, it is. Yes. And like spring, you know, how it represents, you know, it's it's about blooming, it's about budding, it's about lusciousness. So it is also a you know a time of, you know, let's let's give it a go. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, so the the expo is my is my like IVF, you know, fertile egg, you know, will it grow? Is it gonna mature? You know, this is my, you know, this is so me I at the moment. Yeah, this is my new baby. You know, will it make it?

Sarah Roberts:

Huge courage and so precious. It's so precious for you to, I mean, really the first to offer this to IVF clients, like like I would have fallen over, I probably would have crawled my way through the door to have had an opportunity like this when I was going through IVF because it just felt like Oh my god, like as a client, you would have Dr. Google and you would just be dealing with this like massive information and to have access to all of these specialists who can really navigate their way through and really in depth, really go through. Let me talk this through with you. Because there's just not enough time, clinic time. You know, when you see a doctor and there's just not enough time to really go through all the questions, and sometimes it's even questions you don't even know that you have. Um, and oh my god, connecting with others who are going through the same journey, just so precious. Yeah.

Liz Walton:

So precious. And you know, you're at a time where your mindset is different because you're not in front of the doctor feeling broken. You that you're being able to come in going, oh, I've got all of these questions, or I'm curious about this, or how do I know about that? And then you also learn loads of stuff that you didn't even think you'd learn. Yes. So it's a real safe space to come and you know, know that we that that you're held, that you're loved, and we see you. Absolutely. You can also come and speak to the doctors, you can speak to therapists, you can speak to all of these amazing, and a lot of them have had their own journey.

Sarah Roberts:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, the other side of it is I know that that during our fertile years, sometimes when we're accessing IVF, there's a whole lot of decisions around who do I tell, do I want people to know? Yeah, there can be kind of a bit of a resistance to step into a space with other people who are going through this. Yeah. Um and I just know because I was at the one in Canberra, just how beautifully held, how safe, how loving the space is that you create. Um yeah, so I just feel so blessed to be part of this one again.

Liz Walton:

Oh, look, Sarah, I cannot um express my gratitude that you are coming back again to share your amazing work. And of course, your work is sometimes the work we're so scared to admit or to face, you know. So let me introduce you, my gorgeous Sarah, because you are I just look you to bits. So let me introduce you to all of our listeners. So Sarah Roberts is a counselor, she's a childless lived experience advocate. Okay, so she's with World Childless Week, she's a World Childless Week Ambassador and founder of the Empty Cradle, okay, a healing and supportive service for women whose fertility story ends without a baby. And who Sarah understands this experience from the inside very personally, very throughout her whole being, as this was her story too. After 10 years of trying to conceive, Sarah left IVF alone and in um deep grief and found no appropriate support. And you know that that was me as well. And I couldn't find any support. So I'm so glad that there's you, you know. Sarah pivoted her work as a therapist to supporting women coming to terms with this heartbreaking loss and wondering, you know, what has life got for me now? How do I walk this life now? So Sarah is passionate about caring, caring, sorry, for our headspace, our body space, our being during our fertile years and beyond. So thank you, Sarah, for today, because I think this is this is the part. And I remember for me, I was too scared to contemplate it. I was just too scared. What if it does? Oh, I can't go there, I can't go there.

Sarah Roberts:

Absolutely.

Liz Walton:

And um, so Sarah, tell us tell us a bit about you and your journey, and then what what you know what got you into this? Tell us, yes, yeah, share a bit of you because this this is all of our journeys when we're on it, you know. Absolutely.

Sarah Roberts:

So the beginning point of my adult story around my journey with with motherhood um was I I think I was about 19 or 20, and I had a really lovely partner at the time, and we had a contraception mail, which happens lots. I know it's super stigmatized, but you know, and I was in that position where I think I was 19 or 20, I didn't tell anybody, and I waited out the two weeks, and it was like, Am I pregnant? And I'm sweating on it for two weeks, and of course, at that age, wasn't ready for it, crossed my fingers. I was actually I was lucky enough, and I know many young women aren't this lucky, is that I was lucky enough that I wasn't pregnant at that time, and so I didn't have to face that really difficult choice about what do I do now. But what did happen for me during that time was that it was kind of the first time in my young adult life that I absolutely knew that motherhood was really important to me, and it was something that it was like almost like a fixed point in my future. I didn't know when it was going to be, but I just knew that it was really, really important. Yeah, and so um, you know, I I over those years I did things like I, you know, I collected books, I collected different items, I had my little baby's chests together, and you know, I over all those years, it was just kind of it was just this assumption, particularly through my 20s. I hadn't I had some not great relationships during my 20s, so that kind of set things back a little bit. But in my early 30s, I met my my current husband, um, a really beautiful man. I know that's totally biased. And I know for many women that doesn't happen, and so and many women and men, so deep, deep love and care for women for people during those fertile years, and just going, Is this am I gonna get these stocks lined up? Is it gonna work? Um, and so for us, we tried. Um, I remember going into my gynecologist at 34, and they said, Are you planning to have kids? And I was like, Yeah, whatever, the next few years. And she said, Sweetheart, you don't have years. And so she kind of gave me the marching orders to go, you get a bit better get a wriggle on, honey, yeah, at 34. Um, and so it was really within the next 12 months that we started for kids, and I just assumed you'll start, you'll be pregnant the next month, maybe the month after, you know, the whole assumption around all that. Yeah. Anyway, 10 years later, many IVF cycles, 12 reproductive losses, etc. etc. etc. I got to my mid-40s and yeah, I just, you know, I made that really, really tough decision to end fertility treatment um and to move into a childless path. So um what happened for me was that um other pathways to parenting either weren't available or weren't suitable for us at that at that point. Yeah um and just made that really tough personal decision. Um, and look, to be really honest, I remember during all of those years, there was a lot of anxiety around. I didn't even think. It was like I couldn't even consider it, just brought up anxiety to even think that I might have a future without children. And the way I kind of describe it now is during your fertile years, it's like you're kind of sitting at this crossroads between these two lives. And in one direction is the pathway into parenting, and we all have an ability to imagine what that's going to be like. You know, we don't know completely, it'll be very unique and individual to us, but we kind of we can kind of mud map it and have a sense of what that life might be like. And then there's the life without children, and of course, none of us want that exit pathway. We all go into fertility treatment in the hope that we will walk out in that other life. Um and I guess what I found is that that I left the clinic, there wasn't any clear or obvious support opportunities or options there for me. Yeah, um, I did reach out to my GP. Look, I was sent to a uh to a couple of of people for support, yeah, and um it just wasn't appropriate. Um I remember getting this kind of unfortunately, I was told, you know, that I was kind of lucky to not have kids because being a mum was really hard. And um, there was a lot of you know, you just need to get on with it and make a good life. And and almost this thing around almost like just skip over the grief. Just you know, don't worry about that, don't worry about the grief, don't worry about all that stuff and the really hard journey. But what I realized is that that grief actually is gonna follow you and it's going to you know, for many women it will be part of their life, and you've kind of got to sit down. Yeah, if you don't look at it, it'll still be there. Yeah, it's exactly right. And you know, um what I wanted to say to women who are currently going through fertility treatment, I totally get that this is really important. I totally get kind of the fears, the feelings that can come up around this potentially not happening. But the other thing is that once you're there, it it is doable. It's like and I'm not gonna say that I have this amazing stellar life. It's just like I just have this really humble, ordinary, beautiful human life, and it's precious and it's valuable, and you know, I'm I'm surrounded and connected with lots of other women and men who where they wanted to be a parent and it didn't happen. Yeah, and it's possible to create a really beautiful life. Um it's it's possible to grieve, there's resources, there's people who can support us through that. Um and I guess part of why I do what I do is how do we hold that space for our care and hold ourselves in this really compassionate, loving way during our fertile years to give it the best shot, but then also to really support ourselves through whatever the outcome is. Um, and that's what really drives my work, I think.

Liz Walton:

So yeah, yeah. And that's so beautiful because it's you know, it's how to hold the heart, the soul, the being in this state of, you know, was so raw, you know, like how and then also it's like, well, I've been everything I've done is focused on trying to get the baby. How do I focus on letting go and not having the baby? And it it's kind of like it doesn't compute my how do how do I do that? Yeah, yeah. And this is where I think, and I love you have chosen to support others. People go, you know, I can support that. Yeah, you know, and I can help you with that. Yeah, you know, and and and I I also understand that because I to me, I I, you know, by 42, 43, I hadn't had a baby. My sister-in-law had a baby, and that was you know, uh to me, the universe had said you could never have a baby. And so I it was just like I I for my sanity I have to I have to let go and yeah, how do I do that? You know, yeah, and then spent, you know, I I'd say a good 18 months to two years of at really working deeply on myself to be clear. So um, and I think this work is, you know, it it what I now know of being on the other side and yourself is we do survive and we we it finding out who we are if we don't have the baby. I know there's those deep, it's probably such it's such a deep journey, isn't it? To find out who are we if I don't have a child.

Sarah Roberts:

Oh my god. It's it's totally um so there's a couple of things that I would say to that. One of them is that I I totally understand that sense of really singular, undivided focus on I'm really going to focus on this as my goal, you know, becoming a parent. This is so important to me. I totally understand that and totally champion, you know, very, very hopeful for that for every person who goes through this process that they have that beautiful outcome that they want.

Helen Zee:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

I also understand that that the decision making around it is very personal and very unique. So you have some women who are who are are ready to move on a little bit earlier, other women who really want the, you know, allow the clock to run down. I have some women that that right through to menopause, they're still hopeful. And then they're going, oh now I'm having to kind of face it. And so it's very unique to each woman and the different factors that that they choose, you know, that they prioritize are really important. Um and then I guess what I kind of also wanted to say is that going through this process, for me, when I look back on that young woman who I was, and I'm now in my mid-50s, and I look back on that young woman who 20 years ago started on this, you know, completely naively on this fertility journey. I hold her with such love, such compassion, such value. Like I really hold a space for her love and care. And the way that I've been able to do that is the process of grieving, the process of this loss, the process of navigating that, what it actually really did is it actually transformed me into a fully, fully realized adult woman. It just broke my heart and then it broke open my heart. And it just what it did is it shone a torch on all these places within me that needed healing.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

And I I said yes to that. I said yes, I said yes to I'm actually going to whatever's needed here, I'm going to be open to this healing process. I'm going to learn how to reclaim a sense of self-worth, how to hold my heart, how to hold my story with self-compassion. And, you know, it's weirdly ironic that, and I often say this to women, I'm going to say it too much, but but I can say to you is the experience of me not being able to have a child actually made me into the kind of person who would be so much better as a mother. Yeah. If that makes sense. It's actually because what it did is it brought forward like I needed to develop all these personal qualities that were needed to actually really support me within my life. And they would have been skills. They've supported me now in my childlessness, but they also would have been skills that would have been really important for me to have into motherhood. So one of the things that I really suggest for women is take that time now to really sit with nurturing these personal qualities and skills that you're going to need whether you become a mother or not. And so it's things like this deep level of self-compassion, being able to really make peace with your choices, being able to hold your story with love. Um, you know, being able to go, where are the parts of me that feel wounded or broken or where I'm struggling to feel a sense of self-worth? Um, yeah, and then they're they're places for healing, they're places for love and care and healing and nurture. And um, yeah, absolutely. You know, offer that to women where I come back to that young woman from 20 years ago and I come back to the women who are walking through this journey now and go, Hey, there's people who are here who are who are really happy to to hold space and to guide you and offer their wisdom and their experience to enable you, you don't have to be alone with this journey now.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, yeah. I I absolutely love what you just said. It broke my heart and it broke my heart open. And it it's like there's a such a growth that comes with that. I mean, I I always say the fertility journey is is is the biggest gift you can ever have because it teaches us so much about emotional intelligence, about compassion, about self-love, you know, all these things that that we need to learn. Yeah, yeah. You know, to become the best version of ourselves. Yes, human beings.

Sarah Roberts:

To become to become a good parent and also to become a good human being. All of that. Like it's it's it's kind of that thing around because being a parent hasn't come easily to you, and I'm not I'm not for a moment downplay. I mean, you and I, we've we're part of the SCAR clan, we've done our time in the trenches, we know just how bloody hard this can be. I I don't want to for a moment downplay that, but sometimes within that rubble, there can be those little gifts of of magic. And part of that is if parenthood does happen, that I won't take this for granted, that I'll try and be present to this experience. And um and and yeah, that I will actually really make a space for this in my life. And I've really, you know, I'm I've said a big yes to this. It's not like I just kind of randomly ended up in a situation and went, oh, what am I gonna do about this? It's like I've really actively chosen for this in my life, and what does that mean that I bring to the experience of parenting? Um yeah, and I just you know, it's really a heart-centered thing, isn't it? To really honor yeah, in a really caring and loving way what this experience has been for each of us.

Liz Walton:

Yeah. Absolutely. And um, so I I know just on my journey, you know, I was like, I wanna if try if it is for me to not be a parent, I know I want to live a happy, fulfilled life. And so what does that look like now? And it was really about, you know, how how do I live that now when it's not what I imagined? But I know people do, and I I've got some really good girlfriends who are just like, I do not want to be a parent. Yeah, they're having the time of their life. So I was kind of like, okay, well, I need to take a ticket out of their book. Yeah. And they're, you know, they're doing wonderfully. Thank you very much.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Liz Walton:

And so that's when I was like, okay, so you know, I choose to live a happy life. So, you know, I need to find out what that is for me. Yeah, yeah. And this also need to heal me now and and hold me tender, so to speak.

Sarah Roberts:

Yeah.

Liz Walton:

And um, so I can do that slow walk to get to where they are. And how what what that looks like for me, you know, obviously not, you know, doing what they're doing, but what would that look like for me?

Sarah Roberts:

So it's yeah, yeah. And you know, one of the things I do when I'm working with women, and you're absolutely right, is women where it's a very clear, and I'm saying women, but but people, you know, women and men, for where it's a very clear choice that they absolutely do not want children, and they've often known for a fairly long time. Yeah. And and often they have no regrets, like like you know, research around where it's been by choice. Yeah, it's it can often feel quite power empowered. It's in alignment with their sense of self and a sense of agency. And certainly there can be, like as a childless person, I can look to somebody who's living without kids and go, oh wow, okay, there's some ways that they're doing this that are that I can find perhaps some inspiration. What I also say when I'm working with women is that if you're somebody who desired to be a mum, even if it doesn't happen, you never have to have let go of that part of yourself in order to heal and move forward. And the reason I say that is that when I was going through IVF treatment, I thought that 100% the whole of me, the totality of who I was, desired motherhood. And it was a big want. Like I knew the stats that you know there were times where I was still doing IVF treatment. It was probably less than 10% chance that it was going to work. But you know, less potential less than 10% was more than nothing. So I was willing to to to still do it for a period of time.

Helen Zee:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

Um, but what I realized, and this was part of my healing, was actually to realize that I am this complex, multi-layered, diverse woman, and that there's a part of me, not the whole of me, but there's a part of me that desired to be a mum. And she's the part of me that carried those hopes and dreams. And she's also the part of me that carries the grief that she never got to meet her own children. Yeah. And so what I do is I have this really special place, and I actually feel like I actually hold her under my left arm, like kind of around here. And she's the part of me that sometimes, even still, when I'm around children, there's this sadness that might come up. And yeah, there can be, you know, comments that are made that might be a bit insensitive and kind of show me, oh, people don't understand this experience. But what I now do is I hold her, I love her. I I what I've done is I've really worked to build this loving relationship with her, and she'll probably still be there with me right through the years because she's part of my story. Absolutely. But if I lift my gaze a little bit and I look around, I can actually see all these other parts of me that exist that are not dependent on my parenting status. So there's the part of me that's talking to you. There's the part of me that shows up in therapy with women and holds the space for their sense of becoming and healing. There's the part of me that wanders out into the garden and um, you know, does all the native plant reveg. Like there's the friend, there's the the sister, there's there's all the other parts of me that exist. And so what can happen when we're in grief is that grieving part can just rise up and completely flood our system because it's needing attention and love and care and support. But once we're able to kind of gently go, she's a part of me, but she's not everything. And that's what I mean when I say we're complex, diverse. That's what it means to be human, right? It is, yeah. Is is absolutely, and I think it's similar that you hear this in in when parents or particularly mothers talk about their identity, as they'll say, yeah, mothering's a really important part of who I am. Yeah, but it's not everything.

Helen Zee:

No.

Sarah Roberts:

It's it's a really significant, and that relationship with my child is really significant. But yes, there's also part of other parts of me that exist. And once we've been able to really tend to that relationship and she's feeling more at peace, and she knows that she's heard and able to process her grief, the other parts of us were able to like free up some of our energy to offer a little bit of attention to the other parts of ourselves and just gently wonder and explore and have some curiosity around what else is there? Yeah, what else might be possible? Yeah. Um, and that's that's an experience that we live through. So it's not like you get to the end of it and go, ah, there's this really clear strategic plan purpose that dropped in my lap, it's all sorted.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

It's like, no, you actually are changed by your experience of this.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

And so the person you become and the life you create is actually a life for a person that probably doesn't exist yet. So that person who's done that healing, she will actually probably create quite a different life, perhaps, than the one that you imagine being a parent might look like.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

Um, and it's not a better or worse life. They're equally valuable, yeah, they're beautiful. We know that there's so many people without children and non-parents who contribute in such significant ways to the lives of children, to supporting parents, to the life of the community. Um, and so it's really about embracing each other with just this love and sense of care and respect, which is just so important. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Liz Walton:

I love that. And I think that really explains the work that you do and how, you know, the empty cradle, this is how you support people in, you know, and it's I don't know if the word managing is right, but but that next decision when it is about um how do I walk this next path of letting go and ending my journey, and it's without the child that I so wished I had.

Sarah Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. And um that's a very gent, that can be a very gentle and unfolding process. And again, it's it's it's very unique to each woman. Some women, it's absolutely clear enough and they do intense grieving and and step into and they feel like that's part of their history, but not something they necessarily carry. For other women, it might be something they continue to carry, a little bit of sadness, you know, right through their years. Um and however it lands for each woman, it's it's possible to heal and create this really beautiful life. And it's painful, it's hard. Yeah, it's it it can be intensely challenging.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, but it can be doable. Yeah. I think that's the truth. It is hard, it is painful, it is all of that, but it is possible, you know, that you know, I will go on. Yes, I will go on, I can't survive. And that was the biggest thing for me was facing the thing I was so scared about. And then when I faced it, I was a bit like, oh, I'll. I will be okay. You know, it was a bit like, oh, yeah. Because it seemed so like I I couldn't be okay. There's no way I could even contemplate it. And then when I had to, and sort of, you know, go through the funnel or go through the eye of the needle. It was like, oh, I I will be okay. You know, it's it's it's all right. I don't like it, but I'll be okay. And I and for me, I I I wanted to find happiness, you know. So it was like I I can do this.

Sarah Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I can so relate to that. Yes. Yeah. It's almost like you've got to, you know, you're just so screaming in the direction of that parenting life. Yeah. And then to have to face that that life's not the one that I'm going to have. So what does that mean now?

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Liz Walton:

Now I know um you're coming to the Melbourne Fertility Expo and you're doing an amazing workshop. And it is about, you know, when we're trying to create a decision during our fertility journey and treatments, there's just so much, you know, what decision, what's right. Even if I choose it, have I done the right decision?

Speaker 4:

Yes.

Liz Walton:

Oh, you know, oh, I don't, I don't know. And you know, and it's it's kind of like, you know, you're almost sort of stuck in this shock of ideas. Yes. Right thing to do. Yes. And um, so I know one of the your your um workshop is about finding clarity with decision making and those little choices. Yeah. So share with me, you know, what can help us with decision making.

Sarah Roberts:

Oh, absolutely. So one of the starting points that I often work with when I'm working with women around decision making is what are the beliefs or maybe the myths that you're carrying around decision making? And there are some really big ones that we carry or that get told to us during our fertile years. Sometimes we can be told, you know, we can get a sense that there's the right decision out there. Um, we just need to find it. And that's also that we can feel a sense of if I just make the right decision, then I'll get that outcome that I want.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

Um, and one of the things that's can be a little bit unusual about the fertility experience is that the outcome's pretty clear, right? Like this, it's a pretty clear outcome. We want to have a healthy child. We want to, for us to end this journey with our mental health, with our psychological well-being, with our financial well-being, with that it fairly intact. So, so the goal itself for us is often quite clear. How we get there might be a little bit different, but that goal is often pretty clear for us. The challenge is around recognizing that not everything within this journey is within our control. There's certain things that we can make choices about and decisions about. And there's other things that are outside of our control. And so, how do we navigate the uncertainty of that? And sometimes when it comes to decision making, it might be I'm choosing between not ideal options, not great options, what's the best of some not great options? Um, and so that can be part of it. So there's a couple of things that I'll be offering in the workshop, apart from that, because there's a whole lot of other myths that that will bring forward, but also um we'll look a little bit at decision-making models. So, what are some basic decision-making models? Um, and how decision making is very much an information gathering, forward-moving, iterative process, and that sometimes what we can do with decision making, and this is really important, is that sometimes we think sometimes what we do is we blend together the outcome and the decision. And so what I mean by that is sometimes we think if there's a bad outcome, maybe I didn't make a good decision. Or we think if there's a good outcome, maybe I did make a good decision.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

And what I'm gonna gently suggest for women is you can actually make some good decisions and still not reach the outcome that you're wanting. And so being able to pull those apart a little bit can be so. What are some other ways that we can consider what feels like a good decision for us and it aligns with our values, it aligns with the information that we have, it aligns with what is right for us at that point in time. Um and so we'll look at a few different models, and then if there's time, we're also gonna spend a little bit of time looking at what do we do when we feel ambivalent about decision? And what that means is ambivalence is like I feel a bit conflicted. There's a part of me that says, yep, go ahead with this. There's a part of me that goes, Oh, I'm not sure about that. And so what I'm gonna bring forward is is a an activity that I or a tool that I use with women to actually kind of sit down and really unpack what are those different parts of me and what are they saying, and allowing ourselves to be in dialogue and how do I prioritize a decision out of that? Um and just being able to kind of hold ourselves with compassion and care and love as we're as we're working through those decisions. Um yeah, and just being able to be really kind and generous with ourselves because you know, this this is tough. Like, you know, there can be so many tiny decisions, and you can feel this sense of overwhelm. And you know, I found myself, I don't know if you experienced this, but I literally during those 10 years, particularly kind of the last four or five years, I actually had it was almost like you know, when you you're in a car and you put the car in drive, and then you're sitting in a traffic light and you might sit in neutral. My brain for a few years had a neutral setting, which was I would always default to problem solving. What else could I do? Yeah. Maybe diet, maybe, you know, I would my thoughts would always go back to what else can I do? What else can I think about? Maybe I need to, you know, what went wrong, maybe it was that coffee, maybe I shouldn't have had that wine. Do you know what I mean? Like you can get so caught up in the mind, every little thing, detail of all that. And what where that comes from is feeling this sense of it's my fault, I'm responsible. And if I can just make the right decisions, then I can make this happen. Yeah. And of course, the other thing that I talk to with women is that one of the mistakes that we can make in decision making is to confuse the importance of a decision with the likelihood of the outcome we want. Yeah. And so you we might be sitting there, for example, like I said before, where you're sitting with a 5%, 10% chance of this going to work. And because it's so, so, so, so important, you know, it's so, and you know, it as it becomes clear that it is not happening, sometimes what happens to us is it really raises the stakes on just how important it is. So a lot of anxiety can sit around that, a lot of rumination, all that stuff. Yeah. And so one of the things that we can do in decision making, which can be really helpful to pull apart as well, is the importance of the decision and then the facts and the likelihood to actually kind of go, this is an incredibly important thing. And so what I'm doing here is I'm giving a five to ten percent chance of this happening because it's so important rather than a zero percent if I don't do it.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

And so what I notice when I'm working with women is sometimes their motivation for doing IVF or doing fertility treatment can change over time. So, for example, when we first come in, I mean, I think everybody comes in, and the first time they go through a cycle, they think, yep, it'll happen the first time. And the big shock can actually be sometimes the fact that we're actually in fertility treatment can be quite a shock.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

But the big shock can be the first failed cycle. And that can be the point where we go, hang on. I just thought egg sperm, in body, done deal. Yeah. Um so one of the things I notice for women is that when they first come in, it's just this really strong sense of, yep, it's gonna happen. It's all just about getting pregnant, it's a medical procedure. I leave, it's behind me, and I don't have to think about it again. As time unfolds, I notice that for women there can be other factors that come into play in their decision making. So things like no regret. I don't want to look back on this. Um and regret that it didn't happen. I don't want to, I you know, maybe it's for somebody who thinks they have a very low chance of it happening, but they want to know, am I still producing eggs? Yeah. I don't want to spend the next 10 years hoping that I'm gonna have kids if I'm not producing eggs and if they're not good quality.

Liz Walton:

Yeah.

Sarah Roberts:

It might be um, yeah, um, they're probably the main ones. There's a few other ones like they're not coming to mind at the moment, but I'll talk more in the workshop about that.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, yeah, no, of course. And I love it. I love it. I'm sorry, my daughter just came in. Oh, totally fine. Hello. Hello, little one. Sorry, that's right. She's came in and got out. So um, so with that, I think it's you know, understanding that the decision isn't about we're a bad person and we've made it bad. We're doing the best we can. Oh, and it's it's knowing that, isn't it?

Sarah Roberts:

Yeah, and offering ourselves this grace. And what I love about what you're doing with the Australian Fertility Summit is that to have that level of access. Because you know, when you're, I don't know if you felt like this, but when I went to the fertility clinic, I felt a little bit like it felt a little bit like being in a cattle yard and I was being in seminary. It's an awful metaphor, isn't it? But it's like you'd go in there early in the morning, there'd be dozens of people going through, there'd be everybody lined up for the bloods, there'd be, do you know what I mean? There'd just be appointment after appointment. And um to have this level of access, like you know, you'd go into the clinic, it'd be like, you know, deering the headlights a bit. If you remembered the questions you wanted to ask, you knew that there just was limited time. To be able to actually have access to this level of expertise, this number of people who can really give you some answers and really just paint the whole picture for you. It's just so, so helpful.

Liz Walton:

Yeah, it is, it is, and I hope so. That is my deepest prayer. Thank you so much, Sarah.

Sarah Roberts:

It's so welcome. And thank you, Liz. This is just such a blessing to oh you are such a blessing, you know.

Liz Walton:

Thanks, Donna. It's a mutual love fest, isn't it? It is, it is. If you had a top tip to um leave um with, what would that be? I know it might be a terrible going a top tip, but if there was a little top tip you could leave with going, and then we can we can finish with some love.

Sarah Roberts:

I think it was what you just said almost, which is um just to offer yourself some grace, just that beautiful self-compassion around, oh, this is actually pretty hard. And it's okay if I'm feeling wobbly, and you know, just to go really gently with yourself. I know that for so many people there might be there's pregnancy announcements, or there might be hens parties, or there's all that sort of stuff that they can be invited to. People might make comments, when are you gonna have kids? blah, blah, blah. Just to set some beautiful boundaries around yourself and around your heart and around your experience. And it's okay to go gently with yourself.

Liz Walton:

Um I love that. Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time out of your beautiful day to chat with us today. I'm so grateful. And um, I think this is a beautiful way to finish with that. And so for today, it is go gently with yourself, hold yourself tenderly because um our journey in life, our journey in fertility, um, can be challenging. And so remember to hold ourselves gently. And with that, I will bid thee good night and good day.

Helen Zee:

Thanks for joining us at the Home of Fertility. We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.

Liz Walton:

If this podcast resonated, please share it. Leave a review or subscribe. This helps us support more people that are on this path.

Helen Zee:

And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.

Liz Walton:

Remember the missing piece might be waiting in a story. Your body's wisdom, or something new, just made for you. Take care, and we'll see you next time.