The Womb As A Wisdom Portal deep discussion with Carol Jones

We sit down with womb and fertility massage teacher Carol Jones to explore the womb space as a portal for wisdom, healing, and real-time feedback about stress, boundaries, and hormones. We leave with a practical way to track your “inner seasons,” plus a clear reminder that yin is powerful and receptive, not passive.

• the womb space as access to subconscious healing and natural law
• menstruation reframed as release and monthly reset
• inner seasons cycle tracking using spring summer autumn winter
• planning life around yin and yang energy rather than linear time
• bleeding as initiation and practice for major life thresholds
• how chronic stress shifts hormones away from fertility and libido
• inherited trauma through the maternal line and epigenetics
• dreamwork and mapping patterns across months and life cycles
• grief and the heart-womb connection in reproductive health
• boundary injuries showing up as emotional and physical symptoms
• menopause as a spiritual path of transmutation and insight
• how to find Carol through Fertility Massage Melbourne and the Womb Space

Your womb is not a “menstruation machine,” and your cycle is not a problem to manage. We’re joined by Carol Jones, an intuitive healer and womb and fertility massage teacher, for a deep conversation about the womb space as a source of inner guidance and a practical way to understand fertility, stress, trauma, and healing.

We talk through the inner seasons model of the menstrual cycle, spring, summer, autumn, and winter, and how cycle tracking can help you plan your life around yin and yang energy instead of forcing yourself into constant linear productivity. Carol explains why honoring retreat, rest, and receptivity can change everything from mood and boundaries to hormonal health, and how you can still work with these rhythms through the moon cycle if you’re not menstruating.

We also explore the fertility science of stress: how chronic cortisol and adrenaline can pull resources away from estrogen and progesterone, and why libido and fertility can be a surprisingly honest barometer of overall health. From inherited trauma and epigenetics in the maternal line to grief and the heart-womb connection, this conversation offers a compassionate lens for making sense of PCOS, endometriosis, adenomyosis, miscarriage grief, and the emotional weight many people carry silently.

If you’ve been craving a grounded, holistic fertility and reproductive health conversation that still respects mystery, this one is for you. 

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Carole Jones Details;

Fertility Massage Melbourne Facebook Page
 https://business.facebook.com/latest/home?business_id=253002365383189&asset_id=151816965497872
 
 Fertility Massage Melbourne Instagram 
 https://www.instagram.com/the_womb_space/
 
 Womb Massage Academy Instagram
 https://www.instagram.com/wombmassageacademy/

Here are some suggested resources for those interested in learning more about how to work with their inner seasons:

RED SCHOOL ONLINE https://www.redschool.net

This UK based duo pioneered the field and offer many free resources for beginners 

LOVE YOUR CYCLE https://www.redschool.net/love

CHART YOUR CYCLE https://www.redschool.net/chart

INNER SEASONS https://www.redschool.net/categories/the-inner-seasons

JANE HARDWICKE COLLINS https://janeha

Transcript

Welcome And What We Explore

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Home of Fertility, a space for real conversation and expert insights about fertility, healing, and creating family. I'm Liz Walton.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

And I'm Helen Z. We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

We talk about it all. Fertility treatment, holistic support, relationships, mindset, and the emotional highs and lows.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

We are so glad you are here. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

I, on my journey of life, um didn't realize about the importance of my womb and pregnancy and becoming a parent and all of these things until I had to know it. So I am so grateful to meet you, lovely Carol Jones. How are you today? Very good, thank you. Yeah, welcome to today, and welcome to um just being able to share your knowledge because I know this is a big, big area, and for people to understand this.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

It's a huge area. There's so much depth to this. It's it's in fact, it's everything. Oh my goodness. There is nothing more yeah, there's nothing more profound, is there, than womb? Because it connects us to that universal womb, that primordial void. Yeah, it really is. From which all life emerges and all life returns. So there is not there's no bigger conversation you can have.

Carol’s Path Into Womb Work

The Womb As Sacred Container

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Oh, I love it. From which all life emerges, yes, yes. So without no further ado, let me share who you are and a bit about yourself with the bio, and then we can get into all of our questions. So um, beautiful Carol, after developing um skills as an intuitive healer in her 20s, Carol completed a diploma in holistic therapeutic massage. And specialized in clients with physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. Oof, I hear this, you know. Her own challenging health and fertility journey gave her huge empathy and compassion for the pain and grief that others experience, naturally leading her to specialize further in helping women with fertility and reproductive health issues, trauma integration, and also menopause support. So Carol has taught complimentary therapies at a degree level in the UK. And after moving from London to Melbourne in 2010, welcome to Melbourne. Not that I live in Melbourne, but you know, it's always gorgeous to travel across the world. She became a womb and fertility message uh teacher in Australia. Excellent. She has written uh an advanced womb heart training course to include breast massage, which, as we were just talking, awesome. Well done, you. Now, in her gorgeous youth of 60 years old, she has a wealth of knowledge and experience with ceremonial practice from shamanic and tantric traditions, along with extensive training in holistic pelvic care, pregnancy massage, no hands massage, for element massage, fantastic, herbalism and liquid crystals. And she has also trained as an artist and an astrologer, a woman of many talents and many hats, beautiful one. I love it. So let's just start on the connection of the womb. And I know one of the questions which I feel I need to share because it's just a beautiful, uh, you know, I suppose, welcome to our conversation. So just as the heart is not just a pump, the womb is not just a menstruation machine. So it's such a wonderful connection to our body, our being, and our journey. So please share about the womb context.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

It's a big subject. I don't know how much we'll be able to get into. But basically, um if if if if the woman's physical womb is this magical container that is able to bring a soul through from the nothingness of pre-existence all the way through into physicality and know how to grow it properly.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

And I find that deep mystery incredibly mind-boggling that that a woman's body can do that, can take a soul and know how to grow it into a physical human being. I find that incredible. And so, whatever your how whatever your beliefs are around soul and um it primordial source, or what we might have called God, that that's the mystery of what's going on here with with the womb and the connection that a female body has with that primordial state, that that point of we could call it natural law, God-given law, that the um nothing to do with human laws, but actually natural order of things, the correct order of things as it comes through from source. That's what the a woman's zoom is able to tap into. But those key moments in her cycle where she's either menstruating or pregnant or in menopause, she that portal opens for her fully, and she's able to tap into natural law from that God source space. Yeah, ideally, if she's fully initiated as a bleeding woman, that's what will happen for her when she goes into that bleed space. Which is why Indigenous elders used to honour initiated bleeding women. They would bring them around the fire to consult with them, but they knew that when they were in that portal, that bleed space portal, they had better alignment to natural law than anybody else in the tribe. They also understood that those women were bleeding for the tribe because what one of the real functions of a woman's bleed isn't just to let go of the lining because she hasn't fallen pregnant that month. It's because she's collecting all the um energetic toxicity and patterns that she's been living around for the whole month. And then if she knows how to transmute those energies, that will all get released with the blood in that bleed monthly, and she'll consciously know what she's bleeding and releasing. And so the rest of the tribe, everybody else that doesn't bleed, really respected those women for actually getting that job done so that those patterns didn't get carried forward into the following cycle.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

So I really believe that these traditions where you've got women going off into red tents to bleed on their own, I believe that the um that they were created because they the role they were performing for the tribe was really honored and understood, and they understood that those women needed to go into retreat to consciously menstruate, it was nothing to do with being segregated as if their bleed was unclean.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Wow, and I just feel like that's so much to hear and to embody because that sounds so beautiful and not what it's like today. And how can we bring that back? Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Because as you know, we've got women now that are we are uninitiated into these things by and large, and so we've got young women that are receiving more and more toxicity into their bodies, one way or another, whether that's physical toxicity because of what we've done to the planet, the water, the soil, the food supply, everything, but emotional toxicity as well, radiation toxicity from devices, we are poisoning ourselves, and women take that in more directly because we've got a physical entrance to the womb space, the sacral chakra space, than men do, you know, through the vagina. And so if she's not, she doesn't realise that she's collecting that stuff and is meant to um release it consciously every month. In fact, if she's if it's been overlaid white by a fake um bleed by going on the pill, or if she's been told to basically give her whole bleed experience a swerve by maybe taking some painkillers and using tampons so that she can't even feel the release, the flow of the blood. Um, she's so she's unable to get into that proper yin release space, right? Um, so she's not honouring her own cycle. So all we need to do is teach our younger women how to honour their cycle, yeah. Which is what people like um oh can't rename that now. What's the name the woman that does all the um the seasonal work in this country? Oh god, a total blank on her name. Never mind. Maybe I'm not meant to name checker.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

That's all right, it will come, it will see you later, and you can share that. When you've got to put it in the notes.

Inner Seasons And Cycle Wisdom

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Yeah, okay. So the inner seasons that we now teach really helps women work with their cycle and decode what their womb is telling them or trying to tell them, right? So the most important thing is to open a dialogue with your own womb. Realize that she is actually the source of your wisdom, or at least natural law wisdom, which is way beyond a woman's wisdom, right? And I and I do suspect this is why you know um our beautiful elders in this country talk about secret women's business because um they they know they understand that women are tapping into something way beyond their own wisdom when when they get into ceremony, they are accessing that primordial void. So, anyway, to bring it a bit more down to something usable. Um if we used to relate to women's psyche in terms of the triple goddess, didn't we? The made another crone, and for many, many thousands of years that's been the archetype that we've related to, and there's a huge amount of wisdom and value in that. But more recently, we've shifted that into a four-season uh wheel to work with, which then fits beautifully into uh uh a four-directional medicine wheel, and it divides a woman through roughly four quadrants, which most women can understand. So rather than thinking about a pre-menstrual, a pre-ovulatory phase, um, we just call that spring because that's when your feel-good hormones come up and you feel the most sociable and open and outgoing. So we call that spring. And then when you ovulate, that's your summer, because that's when you're at your most fertile, rich, fruitful, that's summer. And then when you go into pre-menstrual, you're in autumn, you're in that hormones are definitely shifted into feeling more insular, more introspective. And then when you go into the bleed part, that's what we call winter, where most organisms feel like going into retreat, not moving so much, looking after themselves, staying warm, all that kind of stuff. And most women can relate to that instantly. And so rather than being always driven by the linear yang culture that predominates us at the moment, which I believe is making all human beings very sick, but I think women in particular, because we do, we are supposed to be keyed into these larger cosmological cycles. If we don't honor our own physical cycles, we are making ourselves sick, not just physically but spiritually, because we're not connected to the cosmos in the way we're designed to be. And so we feel that loss, that lack within our souls, and our body suffers as a result. That's how I see it. So um, all we've got to do then is honour the fact that for half of our cycle we are in yin. And there's no getting away from that. So, and I know this is tricky for women that have the sort of jobs where they've got no flexibility and they need to just keep going and powering through, and they're expected to be at work and performing and all that stuff, but it every anything we can do to support that yin part of our cycle in our diaries. So it's just advisable to not accept it invitations to anything during that part of your cycle, basically. Do the absolute minimum socially when you're in the yin half of your month. And I don't want this to just be for menstruating women as well, they have an obvious month to work with. If you're not menstruating for whatever reason, you just use the moon instead. So if it's a dark moon, you're in your yin part of so as soon, and obviously the full moon is your ovulatory part, your your fullest energy. So when the moon is waxing, you are in your yang part of your cycle, and when the moon is waning, you assume you're in the yin part of your cycle where your energy is going to dip and you're gonna need more support for your body. And especially if you're in menopause, you're basically in constant yin, but you still cycle around slightly, but within a yin container shift, which always wow, I think that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So, in this can you looking after yourself? Yeah. Sorry. No, it's fine. What were we gonna say? Um, no, I I I just love the fact that it's about us understanding about our body. And I know our connection was a bit unstable, so um, I apologize there. I didn't realize I talked before you finished. Um that just being aware that half of our cycle we're in yin, and with yin we have to be slower and understand. I think I know our lives are so busy, but at least by understanding that it gives us um more choice about what we choose to do in our busy lives, of course. Um and for me now being in menopause, that was also very interesting to know. Um so yeah, this is just such beautiful information. And um just, you know, we don't know, we don't know.

Bleeding As Initiation Practice

SPEAKER_03 15:37

No, exactly. And I suppose this is what we mean by, you know, approaching a fully initiated woman. You know, if if we raised our teenagers with this information, then by the time they get to bleeding, they're gonna be looking after themselves better and understanding how much value there is in the cycle, not this thing to be avoided, so that you know they can go roller skating in white jeans like they do all the adverts, you know. It's just all kind of crazy because we're just missing the point of it all, we're missing the value of it, we're missing the beauty of it, the wisdom within it. Yeah, um, so yeah, I'd love to be able to get this information more out to our teenage girls so that they can really start to embrace and love their bodies and really get excited actually about their bleed, um, because it's it's an opportunity for ceremony. And what it is is like you could see the bleed as um a mini death each month. And so if you embrace that fully, by the time you've cycled round your bleeding years, you have literally learned how to midwife yourself into major release points regularly.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

So that when major release points happen in your life, um it's easier to navigate because you actually understand. So if you hit periods of um serious illness, or and and some people relate to pregnancy and giving birth in this way because it basically takes them offline out of normal life, throws them through a massive change portal, and then they don't recognize themselves afterwards, yeah, or you go into menopause, which is that on steroids. Um, if you've learned how to midwife yourself into each bleed properly, when you reach a major threshold like those I've just described, you literally know the terrain. You know how to work with your body, your psyche already has it as a well-trodden path. You're not in so much shock or trauma by having to navigate these changes which every woman goes through one way or another. Even if you don't get to physically have children, you then actually have a harder job in some ways to navigate the pain and the loss of that story for yourself, if not at the time than later, yeah, which was certainly my story. By the time I was 50 years old, I went and did a vision quest just so that I had I felt like I'd put myself through a proper threshold point because I was really feeling the lack of not having physically stepped through that portal.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Gosh, I'm really hearing this. And you know, I I can only talk for me and a lot of people that, you know, around my age and probably younger, where we just didn't have that knowledge, mainly because our parents didn't have that knowledge, you know. And um, I can reflect on if I how different I would have thought about my body, my being in my menstruation with just more compassion for my body, which I did not have.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Same, same. And I think perhaps you and I are probably similar age, and and I think we we're probably baby boomers, and they reckon, don't they, sort of um spiritually, that those of us born around that time, mid-60s, were the first big batch of um light workers to be born as a generational package, shall we say, and that the work we've done in, you know, is is to bring, is to pull this wisdom back down onto the planet and work with it on a practical level. That's been our you know, our mission. Um, and one of our other main missions, if you look at the astrology of our generation, was to bring the all the abuse stuff into the light. Up till then it had been unspoken. Yeah. And our generation was the one that said, no, we are dealing with this Scorpio stuff. We are we are getting it done. We're we're gonna talk about it.

Stress Hormones And Fertility

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's it's huge. So I I'm um I'm a 1969 baby, so not far off. Um and yes, like yourself, I've had a similar journey. Um and um it's yeah, it's I mean, lots of growing understanding, and um, you know, for me, that was an area I really had to look at when I focus on unexplained infertility. Um, it's you know, looking at the scars that don't show up underneath the microscope, hey. So so I'd like to, yeah. So how does stress, you know, the trauma, all of you know, the things that can happen in life as we're growing up and experiencing life in its many multifaceted way, and our reproductive health, what's that connection with the womb and everything that can go go on? What can happen there?

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Yeah, well just firstly, on a very physical level, um, the reproductive system is the only one in the body that is not primary to our survival. It might be um essential for the survival of the species as a whole, but on an individual level, it's not essential. The body will always direct its um resources to essential systems first. Obviously, it's gonna send its resources to the heart and the liver and the kidneys. So the body uses the same building blocks of amino acids to make all of its essential survival hormones like cortisol and adrenaline, and unfortunately uses the same building blocks to make all the antigens, the estrogen, the progesterone, all that. So if the body is in a continuous levels of stress, the all the resources are going to go to making stressful hormones, and guess what? It's the reproductive system that suffers first. Yeah, it just doesn't get the correct levels of hormones, the functionality starts to diminish. And um, I would say that the libido and fertility levels are our best barometer. Of overall health, without a doubt. If you notice your libido level dropping, you know something's gone wrong with your antigens, and you can bet your bottom dollar, it's because your body is in chronic or acute levels of stress and it's robbing your reproductive system of those essentials. So when you've got something like childhood PTSD running in your body as a stress pattern, so that your um vagus nerve never goes into rest and repair mode, is habitually caught in a PTSD pattern of ongoing stress, making your breathing pattern shallow, it putting you in a biofeedback loop of we're in stress mode, so keep making those because your body literally doesn't know or cannot break out of that childhood pattern of stress because of the trauma. Then, you know, by the time you reach a certain, you know, you can cope with anything, can't you? When you're a teenager and in most of your 20s, you can cope with anything you can power through and push through and cope, right?

SPEAKER_04 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

By the time your body has stopped making growth hormone around the age of 28, you notice a massive decline. There's no resilience left. And then the background stress levels that you're actually carrying are going to really start to show in your 30s and definitely 40s. And for most women these days in Western culture, they think they're gonna get pregnant in their 30s, not their 20s, like they used to. Yeah. And so it's a bit of a perfect storm of factors going on here on a fertility level in our culture.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah, no, that's and and that's so true, you know. It it's the whole situation of parenthood and life, you know, is busy and it costs a lot. And when so people are waiting to get pregnant later on in life, absolutely. And I didn't have a baby till I was 46, and I understand why it's a young person's game, but emotionally I was more able and balanced and happier individual to have that baby later on in life, but definitely physically it was quite a shock to the system.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Well, exactly. And it's always been an issue, of course, for women. You know, that they they oft they usually don't feel emotionally ready when their body's ready, which is why the village is supposed to raise that child, right? Yeah, I hear you. It's not meant to be a solo effort. You know, we we need that emotional maturity that's going to come in from the grandparent level and from the favorite older aunties and all that kind of stuff. We we we need that and we deserve that culturally. But we have again, we created a culture where um people are feeling disconnected from their own families, from community help, um, and and probably disconnected from their bodies before they even fall pregnant. True, yeah. Um, which it is a lot to do with the trauma that women in particular have suffered and continue to suffer within culture.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

And um and it's so powerfully inherited as well, especially through the mother line, because you've got two types of um coding DNA, haven't you? So you've got the the nuclear DNA, which is half the male, half the female, put that together and make a new being DNA, right? But the mitochondrial DNA, which is a circular pattern, it's not linear at all, only comes through the maternal line. So all the encoding that she's holding, all the trauma through her maternal line, can be directly encoded into the new being. So it's this is why so many cultures have put so much effort into creating systems which we call tantra, which are there to um help raise the vibration of the reproductive system in both sexes and but particularly of the womb in the woman to hold a higher frequency before conception so that these patterns don't have to get passed on. But when they are passed on, they're incredibly powerful. So it wouldn't matter how far back in the mother's line those women have experienced, say, terrible famine, but that that loss, that um pattern that's in expressing through the epigenetics of their body is carried on directly into the new generation, but it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Um, and so it it's there's so much we can do about decoding the patterning that's gone in and identifying it even, because um, so much of what we're talking about now is the 90% of human behavior that is held in the subconscious. Um, as we know, human behavior is driven by that subconscious, right? 90% of it. And yet it that can be notoriously difficult to access or even be aware of. It's literally our blind spot, isn't it? How are you supposed to know what's driving you if it's subconscious? Yeah, but the womb sits in the centre of that subconscious part of our body, that is the sacral chakra. The womb is our best access to the subconscious. That's one of the reasons she's so powerful, and so we can actually use her as our way in to all the unknown, deeply held stuff, particularly useful if traumas happen to a person pre-verbally.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Because talking therapies are only really going to help if you're aware of what the problem is, right? If you can go and sit in front of a therapist and say, here's what I'm dealing with. Well, what if all sorts of trauma happened to you before you learn any language?

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

So that trauma could be in the first year of your life, it could be during your birth, or it could be what you picked up from your mother's womb field when you were marinating in her juices for nine months.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

How would you even know what got in there unless you happen to know the story of your ancestry? And most people don't.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

No.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

And even if they know the name of their grandmother, they don't know that her mother went through the potato famine in Ireland, and that that's still being held in the genetics of your entire mitochondrial DNA, and that you're and that that therefore the reasons why you're dealing with a sense of lack in your life is because of this inherited pattern. You know, it can get really powerful. It is so powerful. By going into the womb space and sorry.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

No, carry on. I'm just agreeing, it is so powerful.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Yeah. By going in accessing that womb space and reprogramming the imagery that we that she's working with in there, you can get miraculous changes on the outside, which is why I like to say if you heal the womb, you heal the woman. She's our access into our deepest dark. She she holds our shadow, all the unconscious stuff, right? All the stuff that we think so hard to change, to work with. But what if we've always had a way into that stuff? I believe that's what the womb is for us. And I really want to stress here for women listening that don't have a physical womb anymore, which includes myself. Um I just I like to use the phrase womb space instead of womb, so that that includes women that are still work, trying doing their best to work with the womb energy, but don't have a physical womb anymore.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

So, how is the best way to move forward with learning about who we are as a woman and connecting to our womb, womb space, and healing the past, whatever that may be for them? What, like you were saying, decoding, how is the best way to move forward?

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Well, there are a lot of good books out there written on how to work with that medicine wheel, that four-season medicine wheel. Um, so you can just research that and find the right one for you, because there's lots of different approaches and different languages, shall we say, way into that. So find what works for you on that. Or just start with simply putting your hands over your womb or womb space every night as you fall asleep, because it's really appropriate at that point because she is the dreamy organ, she's that subconscious dream space. Ask her to talk to you in your dreams, to speak to you, to show you in imagery what she wants you to know and what she what the healing she'd like from you, what she'd like you to change so that she can heal.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

I love that. That is beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

The other way I love to work with this is that um she those four seasons don't just work when you overlay them onto a moonth, a month cycle. They also overlay very similarly to the orbit of Saturn, if you're familiar with that, a 28-year cycle, which is divided into seven-year cycles to make the 28, right? So the winter part of that overlay would be zero to seven of your life. So that's from conception all through the womb, your birth experience and your early years, attachment or non-attachment to your parent. That's your winter space in that cycle, right? Yeah, and that also corresponds to on a clock face, on a 24-hour clock face, that would be midnight to dawn.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

Right. So let's say you've got a woman who is waking up with in the horrors or with nightmares at 3 a.m. every night, doesn't understand what's going on, but's never slept well. If she comes, sits in front of me for a session and says, This is my sleep pattern's terrible, this is what happens. My first question is then gonna be Did something significant happen to you between the ages of zero and seven? Wow. Yeah, because her cycle is speaking to me. Yeah. Oh, just felt that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I can literally help her decode her womb's messages by taking a really good case history from her. Yeah. Wow. So if she then says, Okay, I know most women really dip down when they're bleeding and feel like that's when they had the least energy and need the most self-care. But actually, for me, I notice I get really depressed when I'm ovulating and I feel terrible. What's that about? I will then say, Okay, tell me what happened to you between the ages of seven and fourteen. Then she bursts into tears and says, Oh my god, how did you know? Well, they think I'm some kind of magical witch or something like that. It's just that I just have a really good map.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Yeah. Powerful. And so, yeah, it's really powerful. And if I've been able to learn this map so that I can help my clients, it means any woman could be taught or look or work this map out for herself. Yeah, it's not actually that hard once you realize what's going on, once you realize you're just always working with cycles within cycles within cycles, one overlays on another, and then you can look at all the clues, what's the sleep cycle like, what's her hormone cycle like, what's the depression cycle like if she has one. It only takes two or three months to map these onto a chart to see what's really going on for her instead of assuming that she's following the same pattern as most other women. Yeah. Because more and more women, I'm finding, are saying they're noticing that their lowest spot is actually that premenstrual autumn spot. That's when they need the most care, that's when they go on retreat. If they look after themselves premenstrually, they actually sail through the winter, the bleed bit. So it's not even necessarily as textbook as you must rest during your bleed in order to have the energy you need to come up again in the other in the next cycle, which does work for a lot of women. But all I'm trying to say is don't make any assumptions about your own individual story and body, map it out for a few months to see what's really happening. You might be surprised to see what patterns you're actually holding. And then you can start to track back, okay, what is that? Which which bit of my psyche, which bit of my emotional body do I need to hone in on? Clearly, it's my something happened to me 14 to 21 that really needs looking at for my body's um physical patterns to shift.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

So can I ask um one, um, the information about um the using the four quadrants? Where can people find that information? So I can put that in the show notes because this to me is just like wow. And then secondly, um what would you say about women that have endometriosis or polycystic ovaries? Where does that fall within your work and and thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Okay, well, I'll get back to you on where best to source the seasons information I'm giving you, because there's a few sources. So I'll get back to you on that, and hopefully you can post that with the webcast.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

I will, yeah.

Adenomyosis PCOS And Grief Pathways

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Um, the podcast. But um, yeah, in terms of um things like adenomyosis, which is a thickening of the womb lining, right? If we go back to understanding that women are absorbing an awful lot more of the emotional field around them than men do. A, because they've got that physical entrance way into that chakra, and B, because they are yang at that um chakra, they are outgoing and more open at that chakra, whereas men are ingoing and yin at that chakra, which is something else I can explain if we've got time. But just take my word for it that women are more active and are absorbing more there, right? Which is should be fine for them if they then know how to release. But if they don't know how to release andor they are living in a very toxic emotion field of abuse and stuff, then it's not surprising, then, is it, that one of the ways the body would then choose to try and defend itself against the constant onslaught of toxicity that she's having to deal with is to thicken up that womb lining. Well, I get that. She just said, Oh, I can't take any more in. I just please don't give me any more. Yeah. So often adenomyiosis, I mean, I know there are physical ways to deal with that. You can operate, you can scrape the womb leaning lining out, and all these pretty brutal ways to do it in Western medicine.

SPEAKER_04 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Um, but unless you deal with the underlying pattern that's that's given the body the need to create that, it's probably going to come back, right? So, this is where what I do can be alternative or complementary. If she comes to me having had that intervention, I can say, Well, let's get let's try and do some work around the pattern to make sure it doesn't come back. Or if she comes to me before she's had that done, I might be able to help her body shift it so she doesn't need the um operation. Either way, it's going to help her. Similarly, with something like Picos, I was there's an energy system between the womb and heart, the Chinese call Baumai. It's a super highway of information that's meant to flow between a woman's heart and womb. And if that gets disrupted, the heart closes and the womb starts to go offline. Okay, grief shatters the heart like nothing else. And so when a woman's had a lot of miscarriage or baby baby loss or just um inability to get pregnant at all, type of grief, yeah, it shatters that heart and cuts her off more from the womb, and then she's less likely to be able to get pregnant the next time and it all compounds, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

So you you need to know that that energy connection is there or should be there, is meant to be there for her to be in health. Because the idea is that all that emotional stuff that enters her womb space, that sacral chakra womb space, that the idea is that that gets shunted up to the heart for processing, understanding, and forgiveness, and then descends back to the womb for release. Okay. What if she's in a state of overwhelm with whatever abuse she's going through or or or toxic field she's living in on any level? So she is getting to the point where she just can't bear to feel anymore. One of the unconscious things we can do is literally shut the ovaries off because they're it's the ovary energy that shun the energy up to the heart. If we shut that ovary energy off, that she doesn't have to shunt the energy up to her heart because she can't feel anymore, she's already completely overwhelmed. Once the ovaries start to shut off energetically, you're more likely to get ovarian pathology showing up because the whole energy and cycle, her ovaries are no longer connected to the entire energy system the way they're meant to be, and so they start to do weird things, like look like they're creating cysts and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yeah. Yeah, gosh, I I just feel like my whole black brain is giving mind blown. This is also I work a lot with grief, and you've just like, oh um, you've just blown my mind on some of the things. And also my own personal journey, too. So um, this is just beautiful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Oh, you're welcome, you're welcome. Because I think a lot of women don't even realize that their own uterus tilts forward when it's getting ready to bleed. In order to create that release, there's a bit of a tilt happens and the cervix descends down a bit, so make it easier for that blood to come out, right? Now, that isn't just a mechanical thing, so the blood can get released more easily. That does all sorts of interesting things energetically. When that um that tilt happens, it energizes, activates the ovaries, which creates more of a connection up to the heart, for instance. So it's it that those ovaries are really key in that heart connection. In fact, they sit where the bow my channel is. The conception vessels runs down the center line of the body through the centre of the womb, but the bow my channel is wider, it comes up from ovaries to nipple. It's very different. So that ovary breast connection is really important, which is why breast one of the reasons why breast massage needs to be integrated into good womb massage. Yeah, because it's all part of the energetics.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah. I love it. Yeah, I love it. So let's go on to then the importance of honoring the female cycle in nature for emotional and physical wellness.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Well, that's what we've been talking about already, really, with this working with this um season cycle, working with that to decode her messages so that she can work with herself on a monthly basis. She's learning from her from a cycle, she's learning about herself.

SPEAKER_04 42:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

So for instance, if you go into your autumnal um space, pre-menstrual space, and you notice that you're every month you get angry. And it doesn't really matter who you're projecting that anger onto, whether it's your husband for never picking up his socks or whatever, whatever whatever it is, right? Um if we just clock it at that point, sit with it and start to unravel it, we'll spot that the reason we're angry is because we didn't set clear enough boundaries at other points in the cycle.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Had we done that, we wouldn't then feel overtaxed by the time we get to autumn. So the time to act isn't when we're in autumn. It's not, it's never going to be when we have our most productive, constructive conversations, right? When we're already feeling angry and overstressed.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

So the wisdom of it is that you do the work to identify what the issue is in autumn, because that's when you analyze and edit. You take that issue into the bleed and you bleed it out and release it so that anger gets bled out. Then you move into your spring when you start to feel better, clearer, and more easy, easily communicating with somebody in a constructive way. And then you sit them down and say, you know what, need to make some changes in my life. This is what's going to work for me. And you do it in a really positive way at that point in your cycle. Then when you get back round to your autumn, you notice that you're not as angry.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Well, that's very powerful. And really working with your system. And um, wow, I'm just so glad there's somebody like you here. I feel like I've learned so much here today.

unknown 44:45

Good.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Good. Yeah, it's all about the decode.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

It's like um the the sacral chakra, that that that that womb sacral chakra energy, that's all that's holding your emotional body, right? That's the water, it's the emotional body, it's not the physical body of the root chakra, it's not the mental body of the solar plexus, it's your emotional body, right? The thing is, if any abuse happens to, and you can tell our career specializing in abuse. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, if any abuse happens to that woman, and what woman hasn't experienced some invasion of her space on some level in her life, even if it's just a wandering hand on a bus, right? It happens to women all the time. If it's just the wrong cat call or comment in the street, it can feel really demeaning and invasive, can't it? Right? Even if she hasn't suffered direct physical sexual abuse, right? So we've all got some level of that going on, never mind what we might have inherited from a mother, don't forget, of her abuse patterns. So when the abuse happens, it's our sacral chakra that's directly affected. Instead of holding it's a really healthy resonant field, it gets blown out. It's literally had its boundaries trashed, it it gets um, it can't hold a nice resonant pattern like it's meant to. After a while, that starts showing up in issues in the psyche first. So it sh you get a woman who really doesn't know how to hold a clean boundary, wouldn't know a boundary if it fell on her type of woman. We've all met them, I've been her at times in my life, where it's such an unconscious thing you don't even realize. You just don't even realize that you're being boundaryless when you need to have a clear boundary, right? So after many years of that psychological position in the world being lived out, that'll start to show up in physical boundary issues. So that's when you start to get things like Candida overgrowth or leaky gut syndrome or endometriosis, where the metrial lining um actually grows outside of the womb, not where it's supposed to be at all. It all smacks of a lack of boundary, doesn't it? Yeah, not in any judgmental way towards woman's all, like she's got she's got no boundaries. It's like, oh my god, this is this is a state that her her sacral resonance field has been left in. It's got it's it's been abused, there's no integrity in the field left. So this is starting to show up as physical symptoms.

SPEAKER_04 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

And again, it's just the body speaking, you know, it's like we need to hear it and connect with it, and it's the body speaking. And so that's like you said, the connection to the womb where all creation is made. So the more we learn to connect, yeah, the more we, I suppose, um, what's the right word? We can be in harmony, you know, in you know, into me, you see for ourselves, intimacy for ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

For ourselves, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, which is uh which we are forced into in menopause if if you haven't really sort of spent any time working out who you are and having any real insight in into your story, but the time you go into menopause is pretty harsh because that's all menopause is about, is about transmuting that story.

SPEAKER_04 48:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

It's about because you can't you can no longer use the cauldron of your lower sacral chakra, your womb, to transmute those energies and bleed them out. But to imagine that that process is supposed to stop just because your bleed has stopped is is just crazy, right? It's supposed to turn into this um ascended version of that where we are we where we become our own crucible, we are transmuting those energies up through the heart into the brow, which is at the higher womb energy for our own enlightenment and understanding, you know. But that's really what menopause offers women. It is a is a really powerful spiritual path.

How To Work With Carol

SPEAKER_01 49:24

I love it. I love it. And I feel like I need to come and see you because I'm in, you know, that space of my life now, and you know, I've and um yeah, it's just beautiful. I I I feel so honored to have had this conversation to hear this, um, and how we've walked through the path of you know, from preconception, fertility, conception, uh, on to pregnancy as well as uh menopause and the importance of understanding, connecting to the womb and ourselves for our internal wisdom. And thank you so much. I feel like we could talk for hours to be fair. Yes. But I think let's I think this is a wonderful space to um draw this to an end because um people need to come out now and reach out to you. So, how can people find you to work with you? Because you work on the body, wound massage, but also you work um, you know, being able to converse, talking therapies in a way. So, do you work online as well as um in person?

SPEAKER_03 50:36

I can do if people want that kind of level of mentoring or coaching, I can definitely do that online. But yeah, for me, that the real power of the womb space is in that I hold the physical, I've I hold the yin container so that the um the womb space in my client can can basically activate and then she can heal herself from that point onwards.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

Yeah. So if you want to contact me, use those um websites that you mentioned earlier, the Fertility Massage Melbourne one and the WOM Academy, Whoom Massage Academy. Uh you can contact me through either of those.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

And um and let me know what you need, what you want, whether it's a one-to-one session, whether you'd be interested in doing the training course, the four-day intensive that we run to teach people to do what I do, um, is often done by women that just want to do it as a self-care retreat.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Well, I will make sure I share all of that with all of them. Even if you never want to become a woman. Yeah, yeah. And so, and for people that want to find you, um, also going through the website is best, or do you have socials?

SPEAKER_03 51:57

I do have socials as well. I do have Fertility Massage Melbourne page on Facebook and I have Instagram, which is called the Womb Space.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Brilliant. We'll make sure that we share all of that. So I keep writing down all these notes. What would be something that um we can leave with? If there was like, you know, a top tip or a bit of information that we'd like to share with everybody as we leave today, what would that be?

SPEAKER_03 52:25

Embrace your yin. Stop trying to live like a man, stop trying to live in linear time, embrace the yin that you are, and find ways to enrich your life with the power of yin. And to not think that yin is passive. Yin is receptive, nurturing, still unsilent and introspective, but she's definitely not passive. A lot of people don't realize that when you see those photographs of the sperm wiggling towards the egg to fertilize it, it looks like the sperm's being really young and doing all the work, right? It's the ovum that chooses which sperm to let in. Oh that's the power of receptive yin.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, oh, I love that. Absolutely. It is the ovum in the yin phase that chooses the sperm. Wow, awesome. Carol, thank you so much for this very in-depth world of the womb connection and importance, and um, for taking your time out of your day to speak to me. I feel so like calm with this, as if so much information has come into my board, like this ancient wisdom resonating with me. And um, I really hope everyone else may have felt that too. And please reach out to Carol if this is something that has resonated with you. And um, thank you so much for today. Thank you for your time here today, Carol. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks. Oh, an absolute pleasure for me. And I think as I leave leave the conversation today, I will leave with thank you for being here and listening, beautiful beings, and embrace your yin. And that is so much power in your yin space and energy. And um, yes, allow yourself to really um, I suppose, breathe into that. And with that, thank you so much for today, and goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Thanks for joining us at the Homer Fertility. We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

If this podcast resonated, please share it. Leave a review or subscribe. This helps us support more people that are on this path.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Remember, the missing piece might be waiting in a story, your body's wisdom, or something new just made for you. Take care and we'll see you next time.