Dealing With A Breakup (Codependency and Mental Abuse)

Breaking up is hard to do, but sometimes necessary to be free. Josh and Arika talk about heavy topics like stages of grief, psychological abuse, narcissism and fantasizing a fake future with someone, and ignoring reality.

LINKS discussed in the PODCAST:

https://www.thehotline.org/

BOOK: https://www.amazon.com/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself/dp/0894864025

https://coda.org/

     

Transcript

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That's the vibe. That's the vibe right now. That's my song. 

Oh wow. Okay. Hi everyone.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to Yeah Whatever. And it's a somber Yeah Whatever because we're in our second episode of our series of kind of dealing with grief and kind of moving on from things that have happened to us in our lives and I'm joined with once again Erika. 

Hi Erika. Hi. It's been a while. 

It has been a while. Yeah, it's been like almost six months. Oh geez. 

And I hate to say this. You know what? I'm not gonna say. Don't do it. 

I'm not gonna say I'm sorry. Don't do it. Don't. 

We've been off the air. Nope. For six months. 

Don't do it. But you know, we actually have, I and you know both of us actually have pretty good reason. As most of you know, you know, I lost my dad about five and a half months ago. 

So you really don't want to do anything like social media, podcasts, like, you know, just things you barely want to survive. You barely you're just barely hanging in there. So I'm sorry for not doing this. 

But yeah, today we're going to kind of focus on like the the loss and the grief of what happens when you kind of lose a loved one. And like a romantic sense of the word. And how's it going with you, Erika? In the last few months? What's what's the update? Terrible. 

It's been terrible. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah.

But it's okay. I'm fine. Me and Liz had this joke at one point where, when it all first happened, where she'd be like, she'd like come into my work or something. 

And she'd be like, How are you, baby? And I'd be like, I'd look at her, I'd just be like nodding. I'm like, I'm fine. I'm okay. 

How are you? She's like, I'm fine. And it's like, clearly we're not fine. But that's just our thing. 

That's how we tell each other now that like, we're not okay. But we're taking it one day at a time. Yeah. 

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. No, it's okay. How are you doing? Well, I mean, I'm living day to day, you know, one day at a time. 

But could you explain exactly what what what happened? Yeah, I guess I should. You don't have to you don't have to do the whole. I'm not, you know, a Britannica version. 

I'm not gonna do I can't do that. But, um, it's weird, because we do have like an online presence a little tiny bit. And so there's parts of our life that we discussed in these podcasts that are going to be kind of unavoidable to address. 

So without like, I'd like to stay away from going into too much detail, but I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to go into too much detail about my past relationship, because I don't want to make anyone look bad or anything. But some of that might be a little unavoidable. 

But I'm going to try not to give too much detail. But yeah, my boyfriend and I broke up after two years, pretty tumultuous relationship. Yeah, I there was just some events that kind of crescendoed over the holidays that made it really hard for me to see how we could possibly be together in a healthy way.

I did feel like, okay, maybe I could just give up this boundary of mine or this value or whatever and stay together. But it wasn't just the the issues that we're disagreeing on. It was how we were disagreeing about it. 

And I just didn't feel safe. I never felt like physically like I was going to be hurt or anything, but just mentally, I did not feel safe with him. And so I started detaching a little bit. 

And I told him, you know, maybe it's best we go our separate ways for a little while. And then we did. And shortly after that, he made some serious decisions that really kind of just sent us in opposite directions. 

So I think that he's kind of moved on. And that's been really hard to deal with. It's very traumatic. 

I guess that's more what I would like to discuss is how to get through a breakup more than what happened to me. I'd like to just discuss like how to how to get through it. I know that you said that you when you and your ex broke up, you were like, pretty beside yourself for a little while.

Yeah, no, I mean, because I've been I've been, you know, here with you kind of during this process. And I've been kind of congratulating you that you're doing actually a pretty good job, you know, compared to that's hilarious to me. That's absolutely hilarious to me.

When I went through my breakup, and this was nine years ago, which is a long time, but I still remember it still. I still feel it. You know, it was it was an ugly breakup. 

You know, we were in love, and she moved away. And then while she we were having this long distance thing, she kind of lost feelings. But she also had like split personality personality disorder. 

So I didn't know if she was real or not real, or if she was just going through it. So basically, like to, yeah, like, like you, like, like, without going into it too much, basically, it was a messy, messy breakup. It was definitely a breakup, though. 

And this, you know, kind of like you, you know, we kind of, I kind of thought that this would be like the one, like, I was going to pick out rings very soon, kind of a thing, you know. So this is kind of going to be my future. And I think, like, looking back after nine years, like, I was equally as sad to lose that person, because I did care about that person. 

But I also have grief about the life we could have had, because you kind of built up this fantasy about the future, like, okay, like, nine years later, I probably would have had two kids by now, I probably, we probably would have been, like getting ready for a 10 year anniversary. It's like weird things, right? And it's like, you know, everyone kind of deals with this. And that's, you know, why I kind of wanted to do these podcasts is because I think a lot of people relate, and they're struggling right now. 

And with me, I'm dealing with like, just regret from years ago. And you're dealing with something that's super fresh. And I've, you know, it's the same thing, kind of, you know, what you're experiencing right now, I remember, like, when I tell you, you've been doing really good.

It's because I literally quit my job when, you know, when the breakup happened. And I was on the couch for three months, I basically spent all of 2020, 2015, just sleeping on the couch. And the only reason I went out of the house was to watch Jurassic World, the first one. 

And it was, I was, I was kind of pathetic. And the only reason why I kind of left is because I, you know, I had to go out and make friends. And you know, I met you.

And you know, it's like, just starting my whole life again, but only after three months of, like depression, and like the worst depression you can imagine. So that's why I say that you've done a pretty good job because you still, you still do your daily activities. You still you're still at work, you know, things like that.

Yeah. I yeah, I guess I do still have a surface. Yeah. 

Yeah. It's kind of like, like when people maybe see the surface, like, oh, okay, she's working, or she's, you know, going out with friends and having a drink, or she's taking her sailing test or whatever. It's like, maybe it looks like I'm okay.

I keep telling people, this is what it is. The office, you guys, the office, when Michael Scott is at the office. Okay. 

Wow. Shocker. We got to bring humor in somehow, right? Okay. 

Oh, yeah, this is a podcast. I forget. So remember.

So remember, when Holly, the woman he's like, in love with, he fell in love with her, and then she moves away. And then she breaks up with him. And he's like, what the fuck? Okay. 

And then they go their separate ways. And then she gets this like, great new tall, like, super optimistic, athletic boyfriend. And then she comes back to town. 

And she like brings him with her. And then Michael Scott is like, they're like, showing him meeting him. And he's like, hey, hang on.

I think I can't remember. But I think he was just like, pretty good about it all. And then they like interview him off the screen, like, out of the room off, not off camera, but they like interview him separately. 

And then he's just like, I am dead inside. That's me. Yeah, I totally remember that. 

I am dead inside. I am dead inside. Yep, that's how I feel. 

I am trying to be okay. But sometimes I don't try to be okay. And sometimes I just accept that I'm not okay. 

And this all sucks. And this is. And sometimes I'm like, wow, like he, you know, when you go through all the thoughts, right? How could he do that? How can he be doing what he's doing now? How could all these things that come to your head? You're like, okay, like, in one sense, there's this part of me, right? The different stages of grief. 

What are they? I think it's denial. I think it is denial. Denial, bargaining.

Denial, anger? Yes. Depression? Depression, acceptance. Acceptance? That's five. 

Yes. I think that's it. I think we butchered the order or something.

I think you actually nailed it. Okay. Yeah. 

But everybody says like, you know, they go out of order sometimes with different people. And sometimes you go back and forth between them and re-go through them or whatever. But anyways, they don't happen always in a clean, neat way.

Yeah. So sometimes I think about like what he did or what he's doing. I feel like righteous indignation where I'm like, okay, well, this just confirms that like, I made the right choice and he's not the man I want right now. 

And then at other times, it's just like this depression. And it's like, okay, like, he is doing this and that hurts me really bad. And she must be better than me. 

And I must suck. And he I feel rejected. And just me, like, I just must be like a piece of, you know, and it's like, that's not true. 

You know, and one thing like I've been dealing with is like, codependency has been extremely enlightening to look into. Because I realized that, you know, over the course of the last two years, I was probably I think I was definitely codependent before I met him. But I think that being in a relationship with someone like him, just absolutely flung me forward into like full blown codependence. 

And I just became kind of controlling and neurotic because that's what happens. Like I'm reading about these people who are codependent that deal with like a sex addict husband or something where they're, you know, they realize after they're married that they have this massive problem. And the husband goes and does these things. 

And then it makes the wife be more and more neurotic and controlling. And it's not because people are just like, it's not because, you know, these codependents want to just control everyone. It's because you you when you're faced with enough trauma and like, like unacceptable behavior, instead of detaching from it and getting healthy alone, you try to make a life work with someone who is exhibiting these behaviors that are not okay.

And so I kind of tried to make it work by basically slowly letting go of what I needed and wanted trust and control his behaviors, which is not okay. And it's absolutely terrifying when you let someone go and you're like, Okay, you know what, I need to stop controlling you. I'm going to let you go. 

And maybe you can get healthy and I can get healthy. And it's terrifying when you do that. And they do the exact thing that you're afraid of. 

And they just go wild. It's terrifying. But it's also not that he's gone totally wild. 

I don't know his details. I try not to think about it. But it's I know, to some extent that what I feared happened. 

And like, I, it's just terrifying. And it's so sad. But, but one thing that I've been learning through my codependency program is that other people's rejection and behavior, you know, their mood or their the words they use against you or the, the whatever it is, it isn't a reflection of you. 

Like as long as you're like, reasonably in order, like if you're not asking too much or whatever, like, as long as you're kind of keeping your side of the street clean, like, it's not a reflection of you when somebody rejects you. And it's really important for detachment to realize that you like if somebody rejects you, that's, that doesn't mean they don't love you. It really means they don't love themself.

And for just just for people that are going through this right now, you know, what you experienced a couple months ago, and what I experienced many years ago. Could you like, explain how you were feeling from like week to week, just so people listening could be like, that's exactly. Oh, wow.

Just so people can be like, okay, like, this is exactly what I'm experiencing. Yeah, absolutely. Terrible. 

Just the lowest of the low. I felt like I felt horrible. And wanted to die a couple times. 

You know, obviously, these are not healthy patterns, right? Like people, some girls and some guys can be broken up with and just be like, oh, wow, like that sucks. And then they can kind of just like cry their tears and like go on a little vacation and like feel better after like a couple months. Like they're a little sad, but they just spend some time alone and they get healthy and they reflect in nature and journal and then they're fine. 

Not fine. I think you always kind of have those wounds, but like, they heal in a much better way. I just kind of spiral into a dark hole and implode. 

And I don't really take it out on people around me. Like I never went out and I never went like wild with guys, because the way I view it is, first of all, that's not who I am. And second of all, it's not fair to those guys.

Because there's two people involved whenever you start kissing or doing whatever with people. You don't want to lead people on and make them become a part of, you know, just expand the chaos, expand the trauma where now you're involving people and their hearts getting entangled with you and you're not even available yet. You know, so I really, I didn't do that. 

And I'm proud of that, at least. But I just imploded instead, right? I completely imploded. And I wasn't doing anything that I want to do with my time. 

I was trying here and there to like get a few things done, but I was just kind of feeling really terrible about myself. And I think that that isn't healthy. And I do want to share what I learned with you guys, because I realized that I did have to go, I had to go research, literally, like how to cope with a breakup, how to deal with codependency, like I had to go research so much. 

And when there's any kind of mental, anytime there's any kind of mental abuse involved in a relationship, the breakup is that much more traumatic. You end up leaving it feeling upside down and confused. And it's like you're underwater and you don't know which way is the surface. 

And it's it's horrible. And oftentimes with mentally abusive people, they often get actually worse after the breakup. And they lash out at you in like new ways, which is something I think that I've been experiencing. 

I can't say for sure. There's just certain things that are really painful, you know, that I think that he knew that I would find out about and he was going to places that I go. So I don't know for sure if he did it intentionally. 

But I think that there's, it's, it's extremely traumatic. But I wish that I had had the resources at the beginning of the relationship that I have now. And also, right after, I just wish I had these resources before. 

So I'm going to list a few. One is, um, I know it might sound cheesy, but the national domestic violence hotline, uh, if you just go on their website, that's not just like a place where like women go that are getting like beat up by like some hick in the country that like comes home after drinking every night. Like, that's kind of how I pictured that. 

Um, like, and like, why would anyone ever do that to themselves or put up with that when it's clearly wrong? I think a lot of people remember, sort of remember the commercial. It was like an abusive, like, like, like what to do if you're in an abusive relationship. And it was always very dramatic. 

Like the guy would come home, like, you know, just like pizza again. He would just start like beating his wife. Right. 

And you could like hear it. You wouldn't see it, but like commercial would be like, Oh my gosh, like that's an abusive relationship. But there is a spectrum and there is a huge spectrum.

Yeah. It's not just like, Oh, well my, my husband or wife doesn't like, like beat me up. Yeah. 

It's or just slap me around or just, you know, physically there's also like a mental component, which I feel like, like hasn't been addressed. Um, Nash nationally yet. Yeah.

I think that like, that's kind of what I wish, like, I wish that I knew what, like, I wish that I really knew what gaslighting was before. Um, because people talk about like, they throw around these terms, especially in our society. People throw around terms like narcissist and borderline personality and sociopath and psycho crazy gaslighting.

They, they throw around these terms and like, sometimes people even use it kind of maliciously where they're maybe they're the narcissist, but they're accusing everyone else of being toxic. And it's like, it's just people, you need to do your research and learn what these things actually mean, because it might happen to you and you'll be so blindsided by it. And it's absolutely torture.

I mean, I, I was in a relationship with a man that actually did physically abuse me from time to time. I was with him for five years. That was when I was 21. 

That pales in comparison to what I just went through. Like, I never, my ex never, this ex never laid a hand on me, but it was so mentally traumatizing that I would actually rather go through my first relationship again and have somebody physically abuse me. Physically hit me than to go through the mental gymnastics. 

I just went through, um, because it makes you confused and it makes you question yourself and trusting yourself and having self esteem is everything. You are a human being with value and with an inherent worth in your opinion. And that matters. 

And it doesn't, you shouldn't have to justify to your partner like, oh, my opinion is valid because I asked all these other people and they agree with me. Right? It shouldn't be like that. And that was something I dealt with a lot where he basically kind of told me that, you know, I was, I was just insecure or I was just basically out of line or whatever. 

When in reality, I, you know, I go and talk to my mentor about it and I talked to some couples about it. And, um, even single friends, like I talked to a lot of different varieties of people and they're like, ah, actually that sounds like a pretty healthy boundary to have Erica. And, and you know, it's just sad when everything's said and done and you just realize you spent two years just trying to explain the most basic of needs to someone. 

And I will give him this, like he did make a lot of progress. Um, but ultimately I was reading it in my book today. Um, codependency, no more highly recommend that book. 

That's another resource I was going to list or sorry. Codependent no more by Melody Beattie. You shouldn't have to like go to other people for your opinion to be valid to your partner.

Like you should have enough mutual respect with your partner where like they some, they say something and you consider it as like reasonable and try to work with them on it. Like even if you don't agree, you treat them like they're a reasonable person and you try to come to a resolution that works for both of you, not just yourself. Your opinion and your needs are valid alone without having to like check with everybody else that like you don't have to look to everybody else to wonder if you're a valid person and your opinion is reasonable. 

Your boundaries are your boundaries. Because you know, uh, are you saying like your ex would, would discount your opinions because it was negative towards him and you'd be like, nah, I think I have a point here. Yeah. 

I mean that, that happened a lot. Like there, there's just things that, you know, there's just a lot of things like that that like I couldn't just, I can never really, I mean there were times where I could, but there's also about half the time, like I couldn't just say what I needed and have it be like heard and thought about and have like be met with like kindness, you know, forget, forget if I was like actually mad or like making a mistake. Like if I was actually out of line, like there's no mercy for that. 

You know, like I, I mean in hindsight he would forgive things sometimes, but like it, like if I ever came to the table as not my best self, there was absolutely no way there would be a reasonable conversation. Like I would have to be presenting a reasonable request in the most nice way. And then it still wasn't like valid. 

Like I'd have to talk, I'd have to be like, oh, I went and read this article that like validates what I'm saying. And here's the reasons why. And here's some statistics to show you. 

And then like somehow it would still always end up just backwards. I don't know. Anyways, I don't want to talk about all that, but it.

I feel like we're dealing with some pretty advanced stuff here. Some advanced. It's not just a breakup. 

You know, every time I thought of like a breakup as a kid, I was thinking of like Harry Potter with like, oh no, you know, Ginny Weasley is like going out with that guy. And then like, oh, they broke up. And it's like, okay, something must have happened. 

Like blah, blah, blah. Like they just didn't like each other anymore. Like one random Tuesday. 

And like that's how breakups happen. So, but it's like, yeah, this podcast is not brought to you by Cinnabon. But now all of you want Cinnabon right now.

Oh my God. Please go and do yourself a huge favor and try the Mocha Latte Chill someday. It's amazing. 

It's an iced like mocha. It's great. We are definitely not sponsored. 

But continuing. I mean, you're dealing with like advanced breakup stuff. Yeah, I'm sorry. 

I don't want to get into all that. I mean, some people are dealing with that right now. You know, some people are like, they really do love the person they're with. 

But there are things that are in the way. And those things might be enough to warrant a breakup. And it's very confusing because it's like we talk about love, like love conquers all. 

Right. But is there a point where love can't conquer all? Like does the other person have just things getting in the way of true, just like happily ever afters? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I was talking recently with my mentor about it. 

And she knows both of us. There's no doubt in her mind that we both loved each other. And even my friends and my family, like there's no doubt that we loved each other, or love each other even.

But that doesn't change that sometimes there is a difference in maturity that can absolutely break a relationship. And that's where it is now. And the funny thing is, is that he thinks that I need to come back to him and apologize for breaking up.

But that's an interesting concept. Because just because I was the one that broke up just because you are the one that breaks up with somebody listener doesn't mean that you have to come groveling back or that you were even wrong for doing that at all. In fact, it might mean the opposite.

You know, it's, it's interesting how he, you know, towards the end, he kind of had like that kind of frame of mind of like, okay, well, you did this. And so now you have to deal with the consequences. And it's like, well, but what makes you think right that you're entitled to a relationship? If what, at what point does it become acceptable for someone to break up with you? Right? Like you were telling me that one time, like, okay, so you can just act however you want.

And then if the other person breaks up with you, it's their fault. And now you're justified to go out and find another girl or guy. It's like, that doesn't make sense. 

Because you have certain responsibilities within a relationship. And that's another thing I've learned. It's completely acceptable to have needs that you want your partner to meet for you. 

And that was something he always told me that I was wrong for that. He said, I can't meet your needs. It's not my responsibility to make you happy.

All these different things that are actually psychologically and scientifically not true. Interdependence is the goal. That's the healthy state of mind where you are able to meet your own needs. 

And then you're able to trust trustworthy people with meeting other needs of yours. It's completely reasonable to need certain things from a partner. And if they stop putting in the work to do that, or if they're treating you poorly, it's reasonable to break up with them. 

Right. You know, of course, like he kind of said, well, then you should be happy you broke up with me. And it's like, of course, like, it's better to separate from someone if they're not healthy for you. 

But that doesn't mean they're going to be happy. At first, you're going to be absolutely mortified. And it's terrible. 

It's even worse. I wish it on no one. It's the worst trauma. 

If the person they let go, just goes and absolutely flies away and just leaves. leaves them in the dust and becomes everything they were afraid of. At the same time, like that doesn't mean you can't you shouldn't do it. 

You have to do it. You have to let them go. But for people who are in a relationship, this is some stuff I wish that people had told me before. 

For people who are in a relationship that's rough. It's important to to go online and to research emotional abuse, of course, physical as well, like to learn the signs. There are things called symbolic violence, a lot of things I didn't know what they were, there's just a lot of things that are really good to know about, learn about those things and watch the red flags, don't throw them away. 

And I used to think when people would be like, Erica, like, I don't think he's good for you. Or like, don't ignore these red flags. I used to think they just wanted me to break up with him. 

And I was clearly not going to do that. Because I wasn't willing yet. You know, I felt like I loved him. 

And I knew, I knew that our relationship wasn't healthy. But I had hoped that we could work through it. You have to recognize the red flags, recognize your feelings are valid. 

And the the apprehension you have is probably reasonable, kind of keep that in a file in the back of your mind. It doesn't mean you have to rush into a decision, you don't have to break up with them today. And maybe things will work out for you guys. 

But it's important to recognize that those red flags are there and not just discard them and ignore them because you don't want to break up. Just if you have to stay together, stay together, but just keep those red flags in mind. Let yourself reflect on it. 

Like I said, learn about learn about the different types of abuse because I really was kind of blindsided. And I wish that, you know, I had a healthy relationship to look at growing up and I wish that I had seen what love really looks like.