Why Great Employees Get Bullied And How To Reclaim Your Worth, with Andy Regal: Episode 359

Ever wondered why the people who care the most at work often get punished for it? We sit down with TV veteran and coach Andy Regal to unpack the anatomy of workplace bullying—from the subtle eye roll that chips at belonging to the brazen public barb that marks someone for ridicule. Andy draws on 25 years in high-pressure media and dozens of expert interviews to show how repeated, targeted behaviors with no benefit to the employee or the business slowly dismantle confidence, performance, and joy.

We talk about why top performers and team-first contributors are frequently singled out, how mobbing forms when a leader signals someone is fair game, and the difference between tough management and bullying. You’ll hear candid stories of micromanagement, sarcasm in front of clients, and that stomach-dropping “the boss wants a word” summons—and how those moments spiral into anxiety, hypervigilance, and self-blame. Just as important, we map a way out: psychological safety rituals, boundary scripts, positive self-talk to quiet the inner critic, and small wins that restore identity when a toxic boss tries to define you.

For leaders, we dig into the real costs of incivility—lost focus, turnover, rehiring, and the corrosive impact of “brilliant jerks.” We make the case for codifying respectful conduct with real consequences, the limits of HR when power is involved, and practical steps to build cultures where apologies are modeled and people can make mistakes without fear. If you’ve cried on the commute, dreaded a “quick chat,” or felt your light dim at work, this conversation offers language, strategy, and hope.

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To reach Andy Regal: 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/noworkbullies  

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyregal-nwb/ 

Substack: https://substack.com/@aregalmedia

Website: http://bit.ly/4hBAJIV

Be sure to visit my youtube channel, like and subscribe: It's All About Healing Podcast - YouTube

Website: https://www.itsallabouthealingpodcast.com 

If you're ready to talk, we're ready to listen! 

©2022 Soul Healer17:77, LLC. All Rights Reserved. Any copying of this poetry and audio in whole or part is prohibited. *I do not own the rights to the royalty free music*

Chapters

• 0:00 Framing Workplace Bullying
• 2:30 Why Top Performers Become Targets
• 5:45 Anxiety, Self-Blame, And Loss Of Worth
• 9:50 Psychological Safety And Trauma
• 14:30 Cliques, Mobbing, And Ostracism
• 19:50 Defining Bullying Versus Tough Management
• 25:20 Fear Tactics And “It’s Them, Not You”
• 29:20 Micromanagement, Sarcasm, And Business Costs
• 35:40 HR Limits And The Need For Policy
• 41:00 Brilliant Jerks And Culture Damage

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome back, listeners. I'm Robin Black, and this is It's All About Healing Podcast. Today I want to speak. We're going to speak about surviving bullying in the workplace. And we have a special guest with us today, Mr. Andrew Regal. Andrew, just take a moment to introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 0:16

Sure, uh, Robin, pleased to be with you. Please call me Andy if you like. That's fine. I go by Andrew or Andy. Andy's fine. I spent 25 years in television, television and video production in New York, mostly live television. And as I was kind of looking back on my career, I started writing a book during COVID. And what I found was there was a through line of workplace incivility and degradation, workplace bullying. But I didn't, I never realized it was that. I thought that this mismanagement, mean spirited behavior was a part of being in live television. It's just that's television. And I started doing research on the book, and I found that this kind of thing happens to really good employees in every industry, every industry possible. And so that's when I really became kind of interested in this overall topic, not just how it affected me, but how it affects tens of millions of really good people and great workers across this country.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19

Okay, so tell us a little bit on your story and what you've experienced bully-wise in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27

Yeah, what I would suggest is that I was hardworking, devoted, loyal, and productive. That's the way I do things. And as I've studied the issue, that's what I found with people throughout industries, that the people that get bullied are the best of employees, not the worst. And in in my work on this issue, we're not talking about people that show up late or that are apathetic or don't do assignments. Those people probably don't care if they're bullied. And so, in my experience, what I've found is that the best employees get bullied because for some reason, and we can talk about this later, for some reason, it's the good employees, the team players who get bullied because the managers, supervisors, and bosses, for some reason, it bothers them that they're really good people. And those are the people, the people that care the most. And I think I know I was one of those people. And I experienced it in almost every job I had, where I was doing great work and I did get promoted and I was paid, and I appreciated that. But the incivility, the mean-spiritedness, the threats affected my physical and emotional well-being such that I had high anxiety, hypervigilance, I had difficulty keeping down food, and I had harmful thoughts because I had this somewhat naive notion, and we can talk about self-blame as it pertains to bullying, but I had this notion that if I'm a good person, I work hard, I do a great job, that it's going to come back to me, not just in terms of having the job, but being appreciated. I think we all want to be appreciated. Instead, you feel like you don't matter. And mattering is a big topic in the workplaces these days. And I felt like the boss made me feel like I didn't matter. And in some circumstances, the boss made me feel like they were out to get me, even though I was doing good work.

SPEAKER_00: 3:26

Absolutely. I oh my gosh, I know that feeling all too well, Andy. So tell me a little, a little bit more about how you said it made you want to self-harm. Why do you feel that it made you that way?

SPEAKER_01: 3:40

Well, thank you. I appreciate the question, Robin. It's because you lose all self-worth. Nobody has more power. Well, I shouldn't say no one, but very few people has have as much power over you as a boss does. In fact, I did a television show years ago with a sheriff down in North Carolina. And the sheriff, when I observed him with his inmates, had so much power over the inmates, right? I mean, they they didn't have freedom. And he controlled every movement when they ate, when they slept, when they got out of their cells. And I look at bosses, they have so much influence over us, over our paycheck, our ability to support our families, our self-esteem, our self-worth, our futures, our popularity in the workplace. So it's for that reason that when we feel like we're doing all the right things and we're looking almost at a boss like a parent, you know, where they control your well-being, it really affects us such to the extent that I lost so much of my self-esteem and self-worth that I started, I and by the way, I never tried to harm myself. I don't want to over-dramatize this, but I had very depressing thoughts about myself because I blame myself. I kept saying, What is it about me that's doing this? What is it about me that's causing the boss to treat me this way?

SPEAKER_00: 5:02

And you know what, Andy, is I I think a lot of us feel that way because we internalize so many things. And then it's like you get to work, you're kind of you become in this mindset where you're just kind of on autopilot because you're internalizing these thoughts. You're thinking, oh, they're out to get me. I'm walking on eggshells, you're feeling like this every single day. And then it's like you become comfortable being uncomfortable because it's just something that you're used to. So a lot of people aren't realizing that that those are the feelings that they're internalizing. It's not normal, even though it seems like society has normalized having this feeling.

SPEAKER_01: 5:41

So well said. I mean, one of the first things I talk about with my coaching clients who are working to get over this trauma, and that's what it is, it's trauma, is psychological safety. Number one. Psychological safety meaning when we're at work, we don't feel safe. At any moment, we could get a text, an email, not as often these days, phone call, but phone call, or be called to a meeting, or be called to the boss's office. I remember one of the worst things that could happen to me from one of the worst bully bosses was when his executive assistant would call me and say the boss would like a word, you know, a word with you. And that and then you had this kind of dead man walking kind of feel, you know, and you couldn't fathom what you did wrong, but the scorn was going to come. It was going to come. And so these things are just so debilitating, Robin, as you know. And I'm here to say we don't deserve it. Nobody's ever asked to be mistreated in the workplace. And by the way, if somebody is a subpower employee, it's your job as a manager to make them better or ask them to leave. It's time to leave. And you can do that also with some empathy, right? But nobody deserves to be treated in a hostile manner. And that's what I'm out to do to bring awareness to this issue and create change.

SPEAKER_00: 7:03

And I I love that. So, what's the name of your coaching business?

SPEAKER_01: 7:08

So, my overall business is called surviving bully culture. Okay. I also have a Facebook group, which I encourage people to join. It's on Facebook, it's called called Navigating Workplace Bullying, which is for any kind of any victim who is looking for resources and looking for a community. We have 500 people, all of whom have been bullied and are looking for community and compassion and resources. So my coaching business is simply that people reach out to me because they're trying to cope with and heal from this experience. And I guess if I had to give a name to my coaching business, it is you are not alone. Because when you're being bullied, Robin, and I think you probably experienced this yourself. And I was just at a conference down in Washington this week, and there were a number of victims there, all of whom the theme was they felt so alone because your family can't really help you. Your friends can't help your. They could all be a little bit of help. Your minister, maybe, maybe not, you know, but ultimately it's just you. Your colleagues can't really help you. They may be getting bullied too. You're on your own. And again, we started talking about this notion of psychological safety. The first thing I do when I work with bullying victims is we work on psychological safety to say, look, I understand what you've been through. I've been through it. We have to start working on feeling safe, despite what the bully's doing. Doesn't mean I can't guarantee you're not going to lose your job, but I can help people begin to feel safer in their own skin. Because we can't change the behavior of the bully. There's nothing much we can do. Now, if something happens, the bully changes their own behavior, that's great. But I'm not aware of any formula for saying in every situation, this is how you change the behavior of your bully.

SPEAKER_00: 9:06

And see, I think what I'm realizing though is I feel like all the professionalism and confidentiality and workplaces has completely disappeared. Um, because what I've experienced is it almost seems as though it's like some of the bosses could be like a part of like this mob mentality. It's like once you're in there, if one person doesn't like you, whether it's an upper management, whether it's just, you know, an employee, it doesn't matter. It's like once they form that click, if you're not a part of that click, now it's like you have all these clicks that you're trying to feel accepted, you know. And it's like if you, like you said, if you're a great employee, you do the right thing. You're, you know, you don't need validation, you're not seeking these things. So you're just out there to do your job on your own. Now you're not a part of it. Now everyone's looking at you, and now they all have daggers because they're like, we, she's different, he's different. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01: 10:09

Yeah. Well, you mentioned several great points there. Let me see if I can address each one. First of all, a feeling of belonging is inherent in the human condition, right? It's one of the things we get from being at work. Now, we may not like being at work as much as we'd like to be home with our family and friends who love us, but there is a benefit to working collectively and a feeling of belonging. And when you have that, when that's important to you, and then it's thrust from you and taken away from you, it is absolutely destructive in every way. And it happened to me. I worked at a place, a big media organization, and they kept saying to me, Oh, you know, your team makes needs to make more money. And I was like, Well, I need help from the business side. I'm a journalist, I'm a producer, I know how to make money with the video that we're producing, but I need help. And I feel, in my opinion, and I can back this up, I was scapegoated. And this is what happens a person is identified as the problem, whether they are or aren't. And in my case, I don't believe I was.

SPEAKER_02: 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:25

And then there's somebody on the other side who decides they're gonna come after you for that. And when everybody starts to see that you're the target, they start avoiding you. And that's when you use the term a group mentality, what we call in this work mobbing. Mobbing is when more than one person is bullying you. Now, one person, the main person might be a boss or supervisor, but then other people below that person kind of get involved because why? One person's demise in a dysfunctional environment, one person's demise is another person's benefit. And so then a turf work takes place, and they almost you know cannibalize, they eat the victim, and then they all try to rise from there. So being ostracized, being taken away from the team, which happened in my case. I also had another situation where the same kind of thing. In this case, the company was being sold, but and I wasn't going to continue, and you're just sitting there in your office with nothing to do. You no longer are part of the team. It's awful. You're not you're not being asked for your help anymore, you're not asked for your guidance. You think you have a lot to offer. Now no one's talking to you. And by the way, people know a pariah when they see one. They know that if the top brass has identified this person as the the fault, you know, the reason something's going wrong, even if it's not their fault at all, people know that they can sense it, and they start staying away from that person. So that I think, and we and I'll say one other thing real quick, if you don't mind, which is there's all kinds of levels of bullying and workplace incivility. We start out on one side with maybe a boss rolling their eyes at something you say or interrupting you every time you say something. That's one side. Then there's sarcastic comments, which also suggests that the person is worthy of ridicule. That's happened to me as well. And then there's the really terrible stuff, the yelling, the screaming, and the targeting where you're ostracized. I think that's the most painful when you're taken out from the team and identified as somebody who's less than.

SPEAKER_00: 13:45

Right. And I I also kind of want to add to that is it seems now, nowadays in a lot of workplaces, it just becomes more and more significant. But there's zero support. There's almost zero training, as though it's like a psychological warfare. So if you don't get the amount, the proper amount of training, it's like they deliberately are out to make you feel stupid, you know, to kind of mess with your mind, to kind of put you in that state of being of feeling like, oh my gosh, if I don't get this, I'm gonna be fired if I don't, you know what I mean? So it's what is what are you what are your suggestions and what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01: 14:23

Yeah, uh it can happen in any situation. As I said, it happens in every industry. And the reason I'm so interested in this topic is because I was senior management, it happened to me. It can happen at any level, it can happen in to anybody, any race, any gender, any sexual life. It happens to all of us. And in fact, um, in an unofficial survey, and we talked about this before we came on air, I have about a 98% response rate when I say to people they find out what I do, and my books come out, and I'll ask them, I say, Have you ever been bullied? And they're like, let me tell you what happened to me. About 98% of people tell me, and again, some are severe cases, some not so severe, but they all felt like they were mistreated and didn't deserve that treatment.

SPEAKER_02: 15:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 15:11

And so what I try to do, because again, we can't stop it from happening necessarily. I work with people on not allowing the bully boss to overwhelm you and your life. I believe, and in fact, I devote and dedicate my book dedicate my book to those that shed their light on others. I believe in that. That that those of us that give something smile when you meet people, and you have a beautiful smile if you don't mind me saying so. That has an impact, right? And the work you're doing has impact. And and what bully bosses do, in my view, is they darken everybody, they they darken our light. Yes, they keep us from being able to shed our light because we're just like so overwhelmed and overwrought by virtue of the abuse, which it is. Now, again, it's it's I'm not suggesting it's nobody threw a stapler at me, right? I wasn't bleeding. That's not the kind of thing we're talking about. This is also not sexual harassment. And maybe, Robin, this is a good time for me to kind of define what I see, and there's a number of good definitions, what I define as bullying. Because look, I was a boss myself for most of my career. I was an executive producer at 33. And so I manage teams of 50 and more across the world. I had teams in Hong Kong, London, San Francisco, Washington, D.C., and New York. Um, we all have bad days, we all get hangry, yeah, blood sugar. I'm not expecting bosses to be perfect, and and bully bosses aren't bullies all the time. Um, but for me, the definition is repeated, targeted behaviors that have no benefit to the employee or the organization. But we're also not talking about tough love, right? This is not where the boss gets kind of annoyed with me or irritated with me, but then literally or figuratively puts their arm around me and says, Andy, you're a key member of this team. I love having you on the team. I know you can do better. That's not bullying. Now, there may be better ways to handle it, but if the employee feels like the boss has their best interests at heart, that's generally not bullying. It's when we lose psychological safety and we feel like they're out to get us, right? That that they want to harm us, they want to damage us, they want to hurt our careers, and it's not warranted in any way. It never is, but I'm saying you're doing good work and you're still experiencing that. To me, that's bullying. Now, we can all work on being better bosses. I certainly pounded some tables, I interrupted people, and I needed to be a better manager and better boss. But the difference is when I got angry, and and maybe unjustly so, either later that day or certainly the next day, I came back and said, Hey, my bad. I'm so sorry. This was an issue. I should, I should have handled it better. Let's let's talk today and make it right and move on together. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 18:18

Bosses don't do that. Robin, I had a boss, I worked for seven, eight years, did great things, never once got a thank you, and got all kinds of threats and scorn, and if I ever see this again, kind of stuff. And and and bully bosses don't apologize and they don't they don't acknowledge their own mistakes. And it's one of the best things you can do as a manager. Acknowledge your own mistakes to your team so that they know they can make mistakes without retribution. So that's my definition.

SPEAKER_00: 18:48

And Andy, what do you feel? A lot of like I know you may not fully obviously understand the thought process, but what are your thoughts on the fear tactic? Why is it that so many bosses use that?

SPEAKER_01: 19:03

Right. Something else that I work with my clients on, it's them, not you. They have a problem. Yeah, they're fearful, they're angry about something. And again, I don't spend a lot of time trying to diagnose bully bosses, whether they had a bad mother, bad father, had a bad, had a you know, woke up and had a fight with their partner. It you know, it doesn't really matter to those of us who have been victimized. But yeah, that's part of the healing and coping, is it's them. Now, if if if you're a screw up, that's a different conversation. Is this yeah? But if if and it it's amazing to me, and I appreciate the the humor in it because it is every person I coach, I say to myself when I meet them and start work with them, I can't believe this person got bullied. Now, again, I'm not there and I'm not trying to do investigation on what exactly is going on, but these are. Good, warm, smart, hardworking people from every indication. And so what I say to them is again, it's the boss, it's it's their problem, his or her problem, their problem. They have an issue, they're worried about the future of the company, or they're having their own issues with anger management, whatever it is. But it's really not you. It feels like you. And it and believe me, I've I've lived it. It's lived experience in my case. But that's what we start to work on is understanding that you have your own universe, you can only do what you can, and you have to let the bully be. And you need to work on yourself so that you don't let them, as we talked about earlier, turn off the light that shines in all of us.

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

Absolutely. And a lot of times it seems though some people feel that their voices just aren't being heard because their boss may feel intimidated by them also because they know, wow, this person may be more qualified than me. So let me try to kind of shut them down mentally so that they don't thrive the way that they really can thrive.

SPEAKER_01: 21:09

Let me give you a perfect example of what you're talking about. I had a bully boss. As I said, I had him in almost every job I had. A bully boss, I had a great boss, he got let go, fired. My new boss was 10 years my junior, which I was fine with that, but he didn't have the experience in television production that I did. He had no experience in television production, but he was my supervisor, and I was happy to do that. All of a sudden, after working with him, he starts micromanaging me. And he says to me, from now on, every email you send out externally, see, I want to be CC'd so I know what you're doing. Okay, now keep in mind, I was 40 years old. I had again managed big teams, millions of dollar budgets, and now he's micromanaging me, which is again one of the worst feelings you can have. And I was certain that he was doing this so he could stop anything really good that I was trying to accomplish. That was my sense of him. So, this is the point I'm making in terms of what happens. So I decided after a month, I said, this is not going well. And we're not communicating, it's uncomfortable, at least from my standpoint. I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask him to go to lunch. Let's just go to lunch.

SPEAKER_02: 22:22

Okay, right?

SPEAKER_01: 22:24

Get away from the office and talk it through. I'm a good person, I'm sure he'll see that. And but believe it or not, I was I was nervous to ask him. Can you imagine? I'm 40 years old and I'm nervous to go down four offices and ask somebody, hey, can we grab lunch? Yeah, should tell you enough to know what a bad situation it was.

SPEAKER_02: 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:43

I finally get to his office, he's there, and I said, Hey, could we grab lunch? I didn't want to go anything, just very simple. And I don't want to use an inappropriate word on your podcast because I don't know what's appropriate. But he said, Regal, we don't need to break bread. You just need to do your effing job. And he looked down at the ground or at his desk, started writing, and basically dismissed me. Okay. Now he so again, that's targeted behavior. It's it's it's inappropriate. It doesn't help me do my job better. He was my boss, right? And it doesn't help the business.

SPEAKER_00: 23:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:26

That's micromanaging, that's bullying, and that's bad for employees and bad for business. Hundreds of billions of dollars are lost every year by virtue of people. You know, I went back to my desk, I couldn't concentrate. And that happens where people can't focus on what they're doing or they spend time with other colleagues who are being bullied. And instead of being productive, they leave, retention is a problem, it costs money to rehire people. So, what I say is if you don't care about your employees, you should care about your business and your bottom line. And so you should care about your employees, but billions of dollars are lost. I've coached people, Robin, who told me they cried all the way to work. I've coached people, I've coached people who said they didn't go to work. Okay, that was you. You you should tell us what happened. I've coached people who didn't go to work because it's horrible. I've coached people who end up in in you know needing a psychiatrist, and I've coached people who've ended up in the hospital. And those are all costs to human beings, which they don't deserve, and it's a massive cost to businesses. Yeah, so you cried on the way to work, did you?

SPEAKER_00: 24:33

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I used to cry all the time. It was years ago. I haven't I left that job a while, a while ago, but every day. And then it was just like a gang. It would just they would bully up on me. It's it's almost as as though, which of course I don't really know, but it felt as though they would have meetings together and figure out like how are we gonna get her, how are we all gonna gang up on her? But believe it or not, the one thing that I have never in my years that I have been bullied before, I had a gentleman who came to me. He was doing because he was actually my manager, he was doing my evaluation and he said, you know what? He reared back in his chair and he said, You know what? First, I want to start off and I just want to apologize. And I said, Well, why? He said, Because I'm aware of everything that we have done to you, and you have still come to work every single day with the smile on your face, and you just did your job, and we tried to take that away from you. And I have to admit that we did that, and I was stunned. I had no idea how to even respond to that, but of course, it made me tear up because I couldn't believe that he was man enough to do that and he apologized.

SPEAKER_01: 25:47

Well, it's unusual to get that kind of vindication, yeah. However, he should be ashamed that he didn't do something about it. And this is what happens, and there's no laws against this, Robin. There's no laws against bullying. Now, if you're harassed because someone says, like in my case, okay, I'm over 50, if somebody says, Hey, old man, we don't want anybody like you around here with your stupid old ideas, then I'm in a protected class. If you're a person of color and somebody uses a racial epithet, I won't even indicate what that would be, but you we all know what that would be. If someone says, hey, you type of person, but you know, bosses don't really do that. They're they're smarter than that. You know, they're smarter than saying, hey, you person with disabilities, get out of here. You know, people don't do that. Now that might be part of the bullying, they might have some kind of enmity towards me as an older person or you as a person of color, whatever it is. But there's no laws against it. There's only laws if you're bullied in a protected class, even then, it's very hard to prove because the people aren't that blatant. And so there's no laws against harming people, damaging people. You were damaged. It was great that he mentioned it, but he should have done something about it. And that's the big problem with this issue. There, like we talked about earlier, where are you gonna turn? And in in all my years that this happened, I never went to HR. Why? Because I didn't realize that it was bullying, I just thought it was television. But what's HR gonna do? In most cases, you know, it's not the person in the mail room who's the bully, it's the person in the corner office or the number two or three or four person in the company. And and and the HR people aren't gonna go after those people. They pay, you know, that they have their careers in their hands too. They pay the bills. So it it I'm glad he said that and he was, as you said, man enough to do it. He should have been man enough to stop it. And that's why I'm with working with other people to create a movement, frankly, where we say not only is enough enough, enough is too much. We don't deserve it, we don't want it, it's not good for us, and it's not good for the business. And so stop it. And in the meantime, until I can do that, and I have some other thoughts for you, I'm trying to help as many people I can to cope and heal.

SPEAKER_00: 28:06

Yes, and definitely. I I agree. And Andy, I must say, is even going to HR, it it is bullying inside the workplace, it is very, very difficult because going to HR isn't always going to help you as well. Because even if the you get lawyers involved, HR involved, at the end of the day, it's still about that company, they want to protect that company, so it can get very, very, very ugly.

SPEAKER_01: 28:33

No, they have you're right, you're 100% right. They have, as they should, the interest of the business. Yes, they don't if they care about you, that's a nice thing, but they only care about protecting the business. So it's not gonna help necessarily. You might find a nice person who feels bad for you, yeah. But so here's what I'm suggesting. And there are laws being proposed in state legislatures across this country, but it's taken 30 years, and now they're starting to get some traction, but there's no actual law on the books about this. What I'm lobbying for, what I'm advocating for, and and companies can do this tomorrow, is institute bylaws, codes of conduct, just like we do for sexual harassment, where we watch a video, we we read about it, and we sign a form that says, I get it, I understand it, and I'm not gonna do it. Yeah, we need the same things for incivility and degradation. And again, that doesn't mean that the first moment somebody raises their voice, that there's repercussions. It just means that everybody understands there's a certain way we're gonna conduct ourselves, both in the office and with our customers, to say this is what we expect. And if a boss or supervisor, manager, or even the CEO is hostile towards somebody, again, not in a protected class, but just because they've been targeted for whatever reason, and it's repeated behavior that doesn't have benefit to the employee or the organization that there's repercussions, that you're not gonna be promoted, that you're gonna lose your bonus. Right. At some point, if you can't do it, you're gonna be fired. Now, there's a thing we also call a brilliant jerk. And this is what happens is most of the time the people that comport themselves these this way are very good at sales. They're high up in the organization, they're well respected, and they may have terrific capabilities. Yeah, but what we find is they make so many people miserable and hurt so many people that no matter how much money they're making, they're causing the organization to lose so much by virtue of the people that leave, that aren't productive, that have to be rehired, and so forth. So it's usually a person that's well respected. And in my case, the guy who was telling you about who said, go sit back down and do your job, we don't need to break bread. He was very well respected. And I would even argue he deserved respect. He was very good at what he did. But when it came to this kind of management, he was hurting the organization and he certainly hurt me.

SPEAKER_00: 31:05

Yeah, absolutely. And morale is a big thing, and it seems no one focuses on company morale anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 31:12

Yeah, and and you know, we call it culture, toxic culture. Yeah, and I've seen I worked for an organization that was valued at$100 million, Robin, at one point. It was a media organization, and we had a number two person who was a terrible bully boss, and I believe that he led to the demise of the company by virtue of how he treated people. Can I tell you a quick anecdote about sarcasm? Absolutely. Okay. So we had a situation. I've told this story before, but it's apropos here in terms of the different kinds of bullying. So this guy, we were supposed to have a big meeting, and outside clients were coming in, and we were going to serve breakfast, you know, bagels and fruit and juice and whatever. And our office manager had ordered the breakfast, but it didn't come. And all of a sudden, there's a whole bunch of tension, like, oh my, because we needed this meeting to go well, and the outside people are gonna be here in any minute. And so I said to the office manager, the food's not coming, let's run down the street to the deli. I'll help you, we'll go get it, we'll run back, and even if we're a little late, we'll put it out and hopefully we'll solve the problem. Now, keep in mind, I had nothing to do with ordering the food or getting there. That was not my job. My job was vice president of original production, and that's important. We run out, we run back. Look at this. They were in traffic, we beat the um clients or prospective clients back. So we're I have my back to the group, the group's assembled again, and we're putting out the cream cheese and the Danish, whatever it was, and this juice. And the bully boss with my back to him says, Jesus Regal, you can't even effing produce breakfast.

SPEAKER_00: 32:53

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01: 32:55

Okay, similar to what the other bully said, right? Now it was a funny comment, everybody laughed, but I didn't have the right retort. I didn't, I'm not that good at that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:06

But what it said to everybody was, I'm up for ridicule, I'm worthy of ridicule. Right? And and it made me feel bad. It made me feel very bad. Now, is that as bad as other forms of bullying? Maybe not, but it says to the group something about how that bully boss viewed me, and to a certain extent, how the group should view me. Right, correct. Um, and everybody laughs why, just like in the playground, and I don't deal with childhood bullying much, Robin, but just like in the playground, a lot of the kids like, you know, fight, fight, fight, you know, when there's a bully. Why? Because they're not the one. Yeah, they're just relieved that somebody else is getting bullied and they're not, and they don't, and so they want to take part to show the bully, we approve of what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 33:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 33:55

And you talked about the group mobbing. People approve of the bullying, not because they like it so much, but because they want the bully boss to know I'm with you. Right. That's why it's so, so dispiriting and so devastating because you're so much on your own.

SPEAKER_00: 34:11

Absolutely. And tell us a little bit about your book, because I know it said that it's due to release in April next year. So tell us more.

SPEAKER_01: 34:18

Yeah, thank you. So this is uh the book's called Surviving Bully Culture, and the subtitle is A Career Spent Navigating Workplace Bullying and a Guide for Healing. And that's a big, it's a long title, but it's important people know that there's a lot there about how you can cope and heal. So I use my story, some of the anecdotes I've said here, and many others of things that happened to me or that I saw happen to other people. I interviewed experts, dozens of experts from around the world, neurobiologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, academicians, people that study this issue. And I learned so much from them, and I want to share their teachings with people. So, this is a book which I hope is a good story. There's a full story about my career and what happened to me, and some funny stories that's not all serious, some famous people that you would know that I worked with, and the bullying that I experienced, and then whole sections on understanding why it happens, how it happens, and what you can do about it. The book is available for pre-order. Maybe we can include uh uh a link in the notes or something. But absolutely, I'd love for people to see it. I'd like to think it could have impact, and that's why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I suffered. I suffered in silence. I had no idea that this was actually an issue. I never went to HR, never went on the on, you know, the internet to research this. And I know to this day that people feel similarly, despite the fact there are now resources out there to help.

SPEAKER_00: 35:48

Yeah, and Andy, and I I also want to just add one thing to that is a thing about bullies is they also know how to bully because when if you're in a situation where you have to try to prove that there's been some type of discrimination or sexual harassment, or it's hard to prove. And these bullies, they know that. And that's where I feel there needs to be more awareness and for a better support, a support group for people to realize that your voice will be heard. You know, it's good to let that voice be heard because too many people are getting away with it.

SPEAKER_01: 36:22

Yeah, you're so perceptive. In my case, I thought almost literally the bully bosses could smell me coming. And I think to a certain extent, they can sense the people that are so well-meaning, this people because they know that you're not gonna fight back, you're gonna go sit back down and try again, try harder, try better. Yeah, and that's not a solution to bullying. So, yes, they they target the people that they know aren't gonna scream and yell back. It's the people that are just like, okay, I gotta figure this out, and I'm gonna keep trying harder to please the bully boss. They they don't go for the people that are apathetic, as I said earlier. And some people are not good bully targets because they're tougher. And I don't mean that necessarily in such a positive way that those of us who aren't that way, but there are some people that I worked with a great producer who wouldn't let anybody talk to him sideways.

SPEAKER_02: 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:14

And he didn't care if he if he got fired. He didn't I don't I don't prescribe to that as an approach to stopping your bully, but there are some people that aren't good bully targets. And the and the the the bullies are very smart, very intelligent oftentimes, and they can see you coming and they know who to mistreat.

SPEAKER_00: 37:31

Absolutely. I I agree 100%. Well, Andy, what what is the name of your your website?

SPEAKER_01: 37:38

Right. Thank you for asking that too. So uh my website is very simple, simple. It's anderiegal.com, a n d y dot r-egl.com. If you want to reach out to me, if you'd like to avail uh yourself of my coaching services, happy to do that. But I I want to stress, Robin, I I only wish this this was a money-making venture. I'm not doing it for that. I love talking to victims who I can help. There is a way through. It may seem simplistic because I don't have a formula to say go into your boss and do this. No, it's about us understanding what's going on with the boss and how we can kind of digest what they're doing and still find joy. I mean, finding psychological safety, restoring your self-esteem, still finding purpose in your works, celebrating small wins. There's all kinds of things we can do. And also, I'll give you two more real quick if you don't mind. Positive self-talk. A lot of times I was my worst bully in my head because I had very negative self-talk. And then finally, forgiveness. Forgiveness to yourself because we do self-blame ourselves. And ultimately, not that you have to do this in person or even to the person, but forgiveness of the bully because it's better for us, it's a healing for us, and also acknowledging that they got their own issues and goodbye, good riddance, but I forgive you just because I'm gonna move on and not let you rent space in my head or or or be in my heart.

SPEAKER_00: 39:11

Yeah, and Andy, and I also wanted to add to that is I love the forgiveness, but also when helping others is a big part of that, like you stated, is understanding kind of what's going on, that it isn't them, because I feel that a lot of us who want to be heard, we also want to be understood. And it's like we focus on trying to be understood instead of actually understanding ourselves. So I'm really, really thankful that you have this support group that's out there right now.

SPEAKER_01: 39:38

We have it, and I'm thankful for you, Robin. Thank you. This has been a delightful conversation, and you said it better than I have said it understanding ourselves. We can't understand the boss. We don't know why they do what they do necessarily. I mean, there's some research, but it's a waste of time. What we want to do is understand ourselves and allow our light to shine and and we Don't want to let the bully keep us from doing that, as I said.

SPEAKER_00: 40:03

I agree. I apologize for that. My battery was about to dance. All right. I do apologize for that there. But um with uh what is one suggestion or piece of advice that you can give the listeners who are struggling in this situation right now?

SPEAKER_01: 40:21

Yeah, I would say definitely, and I touched on this a few minutes ago, but I'm gonna say it again. That you need to leave the boss in the in the workplace. What I did, I brought them home and I couldn't enjoy anything. I couldn't enjoy ice cream, I couldn't enjoy a sporting event. I was in a terrible uh bullying circumstance. I had a newborn and a two-year-old and a wife, and I was not a good partner nor was a good father during that time. And what I can say is, you know, I'm not one of these people, and and you may disagree and forgive me, but about you know, all things happen for a reason, or or even this notion of don't worry, you'll get another job. You know, no, that that's not the point. It's not the point that you know, maybe you'll get a better job, you'll make more money, or anything like that. It's about remembering that there's joy in life, good music, you know, and you may be fearful of losing your paycheck, or you may ultimately lose your job. You can still find joy in life, you can still find purpose in life, you can still celebrate these small wins. When you go home, listen to music, read a book, walk in a garden, read a poem, you know, look at the sunset, exercise, whatever those things are that you can find relief from and enjoyment from activities and behaviors away from the boss. When you're back in the office, you'll do the best you can. You'll hopefully do some of the things we've talked about. But the main thing is life is so short that helping others will also make you feel better. That's why I'm doing this work. I don't want people to go through what I did. I love when I talk to people and they get relief and they say, Oh, I get it. I'm not alone. But the main thing is, no matter what you do, is hug the people that you care about. And remember, remember, there are people that love you, that like you. Why do they love you and like you? Don't let the bully boss, that one person or those three or four or five people, overwhelm all the other people in your life that that identify you as a wonderful person. That's the best advice I can give, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 42:37

I couldn't agree anymore. I love that. I love hearing that, Andy. Thank you again so much. And please just tell us the name of your book and your website again, because I'm also going to put it in the show notes, but just then tell us again.

SPEAKER_01: 42:49

No, it's it's much appreciated. And the book is available for pre-order now. It's called Surviving Bully Culture by Andy Regal. And you can order it uh through my website at andreal.com, and it'll send you to the pre order page, and it'll be available in the next uh month or two.

SPEAKER_00: 43:08

All right. Well, thank you again so much, and thank you, listeners. Again, I'm Robin Black, and we had our guest, Mr. Andy Regal, and this is It's All About Healing Podcast. Everyone, stay blessed.