What Girls Want: A Podcast
What Girls Want: A Podcast
Episode 42 - The Politics of Pleasure: Why Sexual Rights Are About Joy
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Sexual health discourse often focuses on harm, disease, and risk. In this episode, we speak to Tiffany Mugo, who reframes sexual rights through pleasure, consent, and autonomy, examining how patriarchy, religion, colonial morality, and stigma suppress sexual agency, and why joy and desire are essential components of sexual and reproductive justice.
So I think what has happened within the sexual health realm is we've told people like, don't get pregnant, don't get STDs, do not die, figure out, you know, just like how to like physiologically stay safe. Now, the problem is with that is that it's left the conversation so stunted. Because now, when you start getting into the realms of pleasure and stuff, you start thinking about like ideas around bodily autonomy, you start thinking properly around consent, you start thinking properly, like you have to be more expansive. We like a lot of people do have that desire for sex, but not everyone is taught, is taught how to think through sex. And I think once you start framing it outside of just like what your local GP is gonna help you with, then you can start having people almost entering the conversation like in a more in like intentional and like focused way. To our new friends, hi, and to our old friends, welcome back.
SPEAKER_02I'm your host, Mamelosa Jake, the advocacy and communications lead at Athena Network. Hi, hello. How are you? How are you doing? How you feeling? How you feeling in your body?
SPEAKER_04I'm feeling good in my body. Um, I'm feeling good in my home. I am in one of my favorite places to be, which is my house. Um, so I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. I could kill a cup of tea though. That's for after this, though.
SPEAKER_02Kill a cup of tea.
SPEAKER_04We must drink tea and be warm because winter is here now. Is it cold in Joe Burg? Yeah, it's raining. Oh yeah, oh yeah. So I have to keep like my fire going and do a whole thing. Joe Burg summer rains. That's a thing, but also we're slipping into winter. But yeah, generally feeling good, feeling good. Love to hear it.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay. So can you introduce yourself for our listeners? To our listeners.
SPEAKER_04Okay. All right. So, what is it that I do right now? Very little, which I love for myself. Um, but in past lives, I my name is Stephanie Kogure Mogo. I'm still that in this life, but in past lives, work-wise, what I have done is um I run a uh platform called Holla Africa, and we're both online and offline. So we've been doing sort of like knowledge production and we dabbled in film, which we're now going to redabble again in, doing a second documentary. Um, but we also just give like a lot of information around sex and sexuality online, and because we like things, we also hold um sort of workshops all around the continent. We recently came from Ghana about like two weeks ago. Before that, we've been in places like Lesotho and Zambia and Namibia and Uganda, Nigeria and South Africa and Kenya, and yeah. And then we've also done like a couple of things outside of the continent. Um, right now I'm in my podcast girly era, and I am being paid by an organization to do a podcast, which has been really fun. Um, yeah. What else do I do? I've written books, I've done TED Talks, and yeah, I'm just basically a gal about town to put it.
SPEAKER_02A very busy gal about town.
SPEAKER_04You gotta be sometimes, or you gotta watch a lot of cartoons, which I'm currently doing right now.
SPEAKER_02Um, so okay, maybe if any of those documentaries are online, I can include links to it in the bio, which we do.
SPEAKER_04There's only one, but it's still it's about to re-enter the festival circuit, the film festival circuit, because we are adults and we're doing the whole film festival thing. Um, but it's called Masterminds, and it will, because it was in the Josie Film Festival and it was in the outfilm festival in Kenya and stuff like that. But we're in our re-edit era because you know it's baby's first documentary. Uh, because we woke up and we were like in our Matt Damon, Ben Affleck thing, where we're like, we could do a film, shut up, with no experience whatsoever. And we pulled it fucking off. Um, so like now it's in the re-editing, but it actually is it stems from a series of interviews that we did that can be found online called the Mastermind series, which looks at queers from around the continent doing really awesome stuff.
SPEAKER_02All right, okay, okay, I'll include that in the link. Um and then I think on your bio you should include archivist.
SPEAKER_04Archivist.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04Makes me sound like I'm a sexy librarian.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you've done a lot of work around archiving um queer experiences.
SPEAKER_04Uh yes, I have. That is actually the basis of all my work. It just comes in different flavors. Because yes, I think it's archivist.
SPEAKER_02I shall include it. Okay, Tiff, before we begin, like officially, please indulge me. Okay. Um, what if your life, if you were to tell the story of your life, right? Um, or maybe from you from Kenya and now you live in South Africa, how long have you been in South Africa? 21 years.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Yeah, I know. I lock in, guys. I lock in, be it relationships, countries I live in. I lock in, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02So if you were to write a story about your time from um from moving to South Africa until now, what would it be called?
SPEAKER_04It would be called, and then we were here, because that's literally been my entire experience. Like I wake up and from the university I went to to my partner, to the work that I do, to the school that I went to initially when I first arrived, everything is just like a okay, and now we're here. That's what it would be called, and now we're here. And now we're here because like we'd be plodding along. Like even this house that I'm sitting in right now, which I'm like, it's my whole heart. I found it when um, well, actually, my ex-partner found it when I went through brain surgery, and now we're here. It was an it was on Airbnb, and now we're here.
SPEAKER_02Okay, definitely. You've healed from brain surgery. I have, I really have that is beautiful. I'm so happy. I'm really, I'm really happy to hear that. Okay, into the business of the day. So um, so sexual health conversations are often framed around risk, disease, and prevention. So, why is it important to shift the narrative to include joy, pleasure, and desire as central to sexual rights?
SPEAKER_04So I think it's like one of those things, if you think about it from like a different point of view of rights, where like, you know, basic rights are in the economic realm, it's like, oh my gosh, you know, earning equal to men or whatever it is, like the rights, the there's the most basic set of rights, right? Like it's sort of like we want women in the workplace and we want protections around this and we want protections around that. But there's also whenever you think about those realms, there's the need to go further, right? We don't just want women in the workplace, we want women in leadership positions, we want women in management positions, we want women as funders, and we want women as like, you know, founders of things. Like you always want to take it forward. So I think what has happened within the sexual health realm is we've told people, oh my gosh, don't get pregnant. And the problem is that sort of narrative, like, don't get pregnant, don't get STDs, do not die, like, you know, figure out, you know, just like how to like physiologically stay safe. Now the problem is with that, is that it's left the conversation so stunted. Because now when you start getting into the realms of pleasure and stuff, you start thinking about like ideas around bodily autonomy, you start thinking properly around consent, you start thinking properly, like you have to be more expansive when you start making it about like sexual pleasure and joy and things like that. So it actually is like the upgraded version, right? Like you can get like this, like you buy your cell phone and it's got no apps. Now, when you start talking about pleasure and stuff, you're downloading all your favorite apps so you can get the most use out of your phone, right? So, like when you take the ideas around sexual pleasure and you know, like who like and sex positivity and all those things, it's getting the most use out of a sexual experience outside of just do not get STDs and procreate. There is so much room.
SPEAKER_02Would you say that it then that it also makes the information more the information or the the fight, the collective fight for the rights more reachable and inclusive?
SPEAKER_04And like um I think it makes it a lot more accessible, accessible. Because when you frame things, when you frame things in like a sort of like medical way, because that's how it's framed a lot right now, right? Like these are the STIs you can get, these are the STDs you can get, um, these are the things you need to think about in terms of like sort of like the like I said, the physiological. But like now, when you start making it about like, you know, pleasure and things like that, you bring in the crowd, right? Like sex sells, but like just sex just being about STDs and STIs and everything does not sell, right? So now when you start making the conversation more expansive, you like the way you said, it does actually make it more inclusive. Because then people can see themselves in the different scenarios, they can see that there's something to reach and to attain and to think about, right? Because we like a lot of people do have that desire for sex, but not everyone is taught is taught how to think through sex. And I think once you start framing it outside of just like what your local GP is gonna help you with, then you can start having people almost entering the conversation like in a more in like intentional and like focused way, right? So now they are their own advocates because they're like, oh, shoot, I'm trying to attain my own pleasure. I'm trying to attain what it is I want in this sexual experience. And in order to do that, these are a bunch of things I need to think about, be it consent, be it safe sex, be it whatever. But like when you open up the conversation, you just make it like far more expansive, and it's amazing.
SPEAKER_02And that's why your work is so important. In case you ever had any doubts about it, which I hope you don't.
SPEAKER_04We'll we'll not lie, we'll not lie. The ego in me has has never had doubts. How I'm doing it, I've been like, do I really want to do this again? Which is why I'm always pivoting and always doing it in like a different way. But like generally, I I see, I see, I see the importance of the work, but like how we're doing it, is it still engaging? Is the question.
SPEAKER_02And evolve. And how would you say patriarchy and colonial moral frameworks have shaped the way that sexuality, particularly for girls and women, and gender-diverse people, is discussed, regulated, and controlled in many societies?
SPEAKER_04Goodness, that's a big question. I feel like you should put it in the chat so I can reread it. But like, look, okay, I guess, not I guess. I know in this like day and age and basically since the dawn of colonization, you can't have like any questions without being like, how it's like sort of entered the space. And I think one of the problems, and and this is me just going off the cuff right now because, well, the whole interview has been off the cuff, but like sometimes I think we get really bogged down in the ideas of the effect of colonization, right? Because we sit there and even people trying to move things forward want to keep having the same damn conversation, right? We have all acknowledged that colonization did a big one. Like the idea of like, you know, the black female body and it being hypersexualized and it and in the hypersexualization, it being open to brutalization, et cetera, et cetera, with the black male body it being like almost like made into this like peak savagery thing, right? So like even in this day and age, if a black man is accused of sexual assault against a white woman, like ain't nobody even gonna start questioning it, right? It's just gonna be like, of course it happened. What do you mean? type thing, right? Um, so in terms of the colonization question, um, I feel like it's a conversation we've had for time immemorial. And we have all realized that colonization did a number. And I think the thing that I really want to have, because if I have one more, how do we tackle no, okay? We do acknowledge the past, but it's I think for me, it's like, how do we start unpacking it to build a new thing? Right? Because even if you start thinking about like having that conversation, what then happens is we start trying to think about like, you know, we're trying to move away from that, we're trying to figure out our sexual like liberation and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but we're not properly landing in how we can root it in like our own societies and our own cultures. And again, that is one of the things that like colonization took from us. There's so many ways that the continent was talking about sex, so many spaces that the West could never, the global north or the global minority or whatever it is called right now, could never like specific spaces held by family members, held by cultural leaders, held by indigenous leaders who thought through these things, right? And I think if we're going to keep having like the colonization question, it can be like looking back towards what was there and how it can fit into sort of like a framework that we have now, where we live in a more like a very global village where a lot of the biggest sex positive practitioners are like based in the West. I recently saw somebody based in America who has written an entire book and they've like apparently a whole bunch of it is unpacking colonization. Um, and like I was wondering like to what extent they've talked to like practitioners here, right? But like you will find now that the biggest book debunking and unpacking and looking at the effect of colonization is based still in the West, which is it's its own like mind fuck. Um so yeah, it's like deeply, deeply tainted it, deeply done a lot of things to it. But like I think it also opens up the space to think like what we can do and how we can move forward, and how we can just not get bogged down in still talking about the effects of colonization, because we know the effects, and I think the effects are well documented at this point. Um, you know, we've got the like Saki Bachman things and you know, the idea of Mandingo doing porn and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, what are we gonna do about it now? I think that's the question. And not just throw around decolonizing, dec how um in terms of the patriarchy, fuck the patriarchy. Wait, are we allowed to swear on this podcast? It's okay, you can bring that up. Um, but like it's just that idea of like again, this is something that's also been discussed, but like that idea that pleasure is not for women, it's not for the girls, it's not for the fans, right? Um, you you know, you've got like the what was his name? Ben Shapiro, who's like using his whole big platform to be like, if a woman is wet, then she's sick. Sir, how are you saying this in the year of our like I think he said it in like 2023, 2024, oh COVID, in the year of our post-COVID. No, no, no, this wasn't like back in the day, and like he doubled down. And like if you go onto these like digital platforms, you've got all these men being like, if she's making noise during sex, then like it's not a real thing, like, and just that whole narrative of like pleasure is not for women, and even even the the effect of patriarchy on sort of like the sex positive movement. So now when it started to be a case of like women do deserve pleasure, it was then made this almost goddess, divine, hectic thing where when you masturbate, you gotta light candles, you gotta run a bubble bath. Because the idea of pleasure for us, even when we're thinking about our own pleasure, is very far away. You must do an entire ritual. Whereas a man can literally go to a cubicle somewhere and rub one out and it's fine. So, like, I think the effects of patriarchy and like no matter where you come from it, like no matter how you approach it, is that pleasure for women is like this unattainable thing. And either you should not try or you should try entirely too much. Like, I know I went through that phase where I'm like setting up this whole thing for masturbation, which is a lot, right? And especially if you're trying to do it, if you hang out with your partner a lot, which I did, um, and you've only got like, I don't know, 45 minutes. I don't have time to run a bath, charge my toy, light candles. Do I even have candles in the house? Now I gotta find a candle stand because I don't want to set the house on fire. It's too much. Whereas I could have, if I'd been raised with the idea that pleasure is at my fingertips, literally, see what I did there. Thank you. Um, that pleasure is at my fingertips. I could have been able to rub one out whilst they go get groceries. Like they're like, oh, I'm just gonna pick up some milk. I should be able to rub one out in that time. But yeah, so that those have been the effects. Uh I have thoughts and feelings, clearly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with everything you said. Um and in moving forward, we should, or one way of moving forward is to say normalize and think about pleasure and joy and desire in everyday ways, right? Not just exceptionalizing it, and as a birthright.
SPEAKER_04Yes, as a birthright, as a birthright. Because I think also just we get in our head way too much about sex and pleasure, and so like, even the fact that we have to, and it is important to decolonize and fight the patriarchy in it as well, and things like that. But like sometimes, you know, that whole phrase of like, what's it? The personal is political. Also, the other way around, guys. Sometimes, you know, switch it off, switch it off. Like, don't get so bogged down in like the big heady ideas around the politics of pleasure, they're important, but sometimes you just want to rub one up, sometimes it's not that deep, it's not that deep, and I think sometimes we we really genuinely get bogged down in the vibes, like of like, oh my gosh, I am as my body, I am deconstructing the narrative. Calm down, but you are, but calm down, it's okay, don't get bogged down in it.
SPEAKER_02So, Tiff, with that, what does reclaiming pleasure look like in the context of sexual and reproductive justice?
SPEAKER_04Fancy. Um, it is not throwing dildos at uh UN officials, even though it could include that. Like, guys, everybody needs to do the struggle how they need to do it, right? Like everyone just needs to do their own thing. Um so, like, how what does it look like? I think it I think there's a big part of it that includes bringing in uh non-traditional sex positive practitioners into the conversation. So, like, we can't rely only on like the Dr. T's of this world who genuinely straddle both worlds, right? Because I think what's happened within um sort of like repro what did you call it again? Give me the full phrase. Oh, is that fancy ass phrase? Sexual and reproductive justice. Yes, that is. Sexual and reproductive justice. Fancy. Because I think what has happened in that in that realm is that you've gotten the people who like really see it like in a very serious way. Not to say that sex positive practitioners are not serious, but like there's that idea of those who see it within sort of like the legal framework, the rights framework, the et cetera framework. And then once in a while you bring in like a fun sex positive practitioner who's like, everybody should buy a dildo tomorrow. And everyone goes, and then that's just the one panel, right? But you find like those people who are getting the wheels are the ones who have that sort of like bigger platform. They're the ones who are saying the things. And it's there's not always sort of like that symbiotic relationship where people can learn from each other, right? So you've got like all the people doing the serious reproductive justice, uh, like sexual justice vibes in one space, in their conferences, thinking through the things, using the legal frameworks, using the international frameworks, etc. And then you've got the other people who it's almost like they seen like they're working on a sort of micro level, like each individual moment of pleasure. So it's like it's almost like the mark, the macro and the micro, and they're not always coming together. So I like again, sure, there's that one panel where you have like the sex positive practitioner, and they're always very colorful and they've got earrings on, it's a vibe, and somebody goes, woo, when they say like the wacky thing. But like there's a need to like bring the two together a lot more, right? To have a conversation, to figure out like what are the ways that they can work together. Because the sex positive realm has been around, but like in its current iteration, it's very, very young. Whereas like people have been fighting for like sexual reproductive justice for like a long time in its sort of serious iteration. So we're looking at like you know, the GBVs and we're looking at access to like reproductive health and et cetera, et cetera. And there's a lot of frameworks for that, whereas the sex positive realm, outside of like the general vague tenets of what sex positivity is, it's still like sort of finding its beat. So, like how that sort of like new funky energy can also feed into sort of like this more classic framework, I think that could be a thing. I agree with your question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. In I've been to a lot of sexual reproductive justice rights um conferences and workshops, and it is so rare that you have people speak about pleasure, and you'll have a whole five-day, three-day thing, and nobody will speak about pleasure. Um, even those not so-called feminist ones, the feminist ones, you know. Not you throwing shade.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. It's okay. No, it's okay. No, I I get it because like even to this day, and I think it's it's one of those things that happens across sectors, right? Like um, across the movements. So even like within queer spaces, where like look, and I don't know whether I'm exposing our lives as queer people, but queer spaces does a lot about you know the queer movement that is inherently infused with the interpersonal and the intimate and the is such an important part. But like I was being told literally until like maybe three, four years ago, and the only thing that saves me is funding. Hey, still to this day, I can feel the disrespect in people's voices, but like that whole idea of like we've got serious shit to do. Yes, we've got serious shit to do, and you and your auto or what's it, audio erotica anthologies and your books and privileged politics to calm down, huh?
SPEAKER_02And privilege politics.
SPEAKER_04Oh my gosh, like you have so much time on your hands. That's not a fucking lie. That's not a lie. I do have a lot of time on my hands, but like because you're not in the trenches. I actually had this conversation with a very prominent, like um queer Kenyan activist about how I'm not I'm not serious about the things I do. And I'm like, but I am literally fighting for like the highest, what's it? How is it like Dr. T phrases it, like the highest attainment of like enjoyment of rights by wanting you to have your pleasure? Like at some point, it's a case of like, so do you want to just keep messing around in the muck? Somebody's gonna start gotta stand with a torch, being like, once we figure out the basics, yeah, this is where we can go.
SPEAKER_02Um, so how can pe how can we navigate, you know, religion plays a very powerful role in shaping norms around sexuality and defining and dictating what is right and what is wrong, and goodness and badness. So, how can we navigate faith, culture, and sexual autonomy without reinforcing shame and stigma?
SPEAKER_04So I currently know a really, really, really funky Reverend. Um, and it's been so interesting to see how they navigate ideas around pleasure, right? Like firstly, it was um, so it's Reverend Po Tutu. Um, and so she has like just like an extra uh engagement with ideas around pleasure. Like she even actually did the daughter, yeah.
SPEAKER_02She even the queer one, the queer one, right?
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes, it's homosexual. Um, but yeah, so like she even did the in the audio erotica anthology that I did, she actually did the final prayer. So it's and it's called a prayer for good sex, right? So I think one of the ways that we can actually engage these spaces is finding those with the scholarly knowledge to find pleasure within sort of like biblical texts, within religious texts, within cultural practices, right? So it's not a case of like trying to step around it, it's finding allies within the space who understand. Like, what is it? Song of Psalms is basically just smut. Have you read Song of Psalms? Dang, it is Song of Psalms, right? Where it's sort of like your ample breasts are doing entirely too much, okay? Your ample breasts are doing entirely too much, right? And even if you look at like cultural spaces, you've got like kitchen parties in Zambia and like all sorts of spaces that teach around pleasure, which teach around sex, which teach around like sex being this sort of like, you know, coming together of bodies in a way that is sort of like a spiritual experience in itself. So, and I think the mistakes sometimes we make around religion, and I've made this myself, right? Religion, cultural practices, blah, blah, blah, is um trying to sidestep it. But like what we forget is like religion and culture is a big part of people's lives, especially here on the continent, around the world. Guys, you've got, you know, it's it's a big part of people's lives. And I think the key is doing the work to find sort of like religious figures, um, cultural figures, cultural leaders who can help reframe the conversation without like having to leave the chat. You don't have to leave the chat like to do this thing, right? So I think it's just like it's I know I'm I'm not one of them, right? My mom keeps asking me if I've read the Bible. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Mind your business, okay? But like there are people who are thinking through it like that. That who are, and sure they're not the loudest voices, um, because the space doesn't allow for those voices to be the loudest, but they're there. So they can help with reframing and they can help with rethinking. Love it.
SPEAKER_02I haven't listened to, I didn't um I'm going to listen to the the pre the pleasure. What's it? The pleasure prayer.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Um, the prayer for good sex. Okay. So it's like at the end, so it wraps up everything at the end. So that was like the whole point of it to be like sort of like this, yeah. So like, and it's yeah, you listen to it, it fits into this general card. Darling.
SPEAKER_02I think. Um, okay, so we've been trying to have this conversation for a while, and I wrote these. Have we been?
SPEAKER_04I mean, yeah, we have, no shame. No, in your defense, we really have. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And I wrote these questions quite, yeah. I wrote these questions a while ago. Um, and I'm only coming back to them now as we're speaking. And I see that the next one is about consent. Um, and just a side note, this weekend I was cleaning out my cupboard. Or like my the section of my cupboard where I kept where I kept keep all my reading material for school. Um, and I came across a booklet um that I got from From Mola Africa. Your yours and simple's brain baby, or love baby, I don't know, Facebook. Um, I came across a booklet about consent. And you've been speaking about consent in many, many different ways, um, in playful ways, in pleasure-based ways, in um affirming ways. And yeah, you've you've done a lot around pleasure. So, I mean, not pleasure, sorry, consent, consent, consent. Replace all of the pleasure part with consent. Um the booklet was all about consent. That was clear, right? Okay. Okay, cool. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So, so do you remember what it was called?
SPEAKER_02No, fair. There's been a couple of them, so fair. Yeah, I don't remember what it's called, but it's on my table right there. Um so with that, consent is often discussed in legal and safety terms, right? So, how can we expand, which you've done a lot of, the conversation to include consent as a foundation for dignity, agency, and mutual pleasure?
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah, okay, that's that's a big question. I hope you type these somewhere. Um, so I think it's one of those things that I talked about about expanding it from sort of like a legalistic and a sort of huh. I think basing the conversation in the everyday, right? Having people understand consent in a way that pertains to their everyday, right? So having conversations about the quote unquote gray areas of consent, having conversations that are based in like people's experiences, people's understanding, people's like allowing it in order to like make it about people's bodies, you have to put it back in people's bodies, right? So like asking people what it is they're comfortable with, how it is they understand, and having conversations from there, like from that sort of like general framework, right? I've I found like within the space of like consent and pleasure and all those things, it's like when people understand their own experiences rather than the experiences that have been prescribed to them. And that's what a lot of like sexual health stuff, and now even like the rise of consent, it was a case of like this is what has been defined, this is what it is, this is what it got. And the problem is that does not take into account sort of like the multitude of experiences, the spectrum of like ways of engaging and like having it so people understand the shifting nature also allows them to understand what it is for them, what consent is for them. Because there's some people who don't even like being hugged. We're not even gonna get into like now, we butt ass naked. Some people do not like being hugged. But like now, when we start having a conversation around and taking away from like a very prescriptive thing to like a more descriptive space where it's sort of like, okay, some people don't like this, some people don't like that. And then you can start expanding the ways in which people have conversations about this, right? Because at the end of the day, I think it all comes down to conversations where it's sort of like, can we speak about what we are comfortable with as well as what we are offering? Like I go to places and I'm like offering everyone hugs. Like it's just I'm trying to hug everything, right? Um, but then there's some people who it's sort of like, so you just ask, and normalizing having those conversations around things, right? Because I think people feel that once we have been given this prescriptive thing, then it's done. But we're not taking into effect into account all those quote unquote gray areas, all those quote unquote like tricky situations, all those quote unquote different ways of understanding, or even the fact that a lot of people don't even understand their own bodies that well. So, how are they supposed to be like, these are my boundaries? There's like eight people in the whole world who genuinely know what their boundaries are, like genuinely standard, and like four of them are in the king community. So, like, there's so much more that we need to learn about how to be comfortable having the conversations, how to be comfortable understanding our own bodies, so that when we're in situations, we are confident enough to be like, that's a hard no for me, or you know what? I don't really feel that, like, no matter what the space is. So just taking it to like a more personal space and less uh you are being taught about consent. It's more of a sitting with your body, sitting with yourself, what do you understand about consent? And you'll find that that's a lot more effective, I would say, right? Because, like, look, there is every space in the world, and it is like a beautiful, powerful foundation to be like, guys, no means no. But like if you look at like people who like continue doing that consent work, it starts being like peeling back. Okay, cool, no means no. But what about like if it's your long-term partner? What about if you did want it initially? What if it's you're giving sex because you feel bad, and now you start getting into like really like sort of like sort of the meat of it, and how people are seeing consent through a myriad of lenses, like be it like whether you're able-bodied, be it whether you're African, be it whether you're short or tall, or I don't know, light-skinned, or like there are so many lenses we see consent through. So we can't just be like, no, means no. Yes, okay, not all no's are created equal. So what are we doing here? Type thing.
SPEAKER_02Agreed. Yes, yes, yes. We definitely do need to. Why are you laughing at me?
SPEAKER_04It's just like whether you're like here, it's like loading, yeah. Okay, we'll accept it. We will accept it. You know, like when you're like loading a document and then it's like document uploaded, accepted.
SPEAKER_02No, yes, we do need to expand the conversations around consent and just like really normalize them. You'd be surprised for the amount of people having sex or yeah, the amount of people having sex and the amount of people who know of who know things about sex versus the amount of people who understand pleasure, I mean, excuse me, consent, who understand consent, um, and practice consent, or really have an expansive understanding about sex is very disproportionate.
SPEAKER_04A lot more people, like an a lot of people. What's it the Venn diagram of people who understand consent and people who are having sex? It's very little overlap. It's like Yeah, it's disproportionate.
SPEAKER_02It's disproportionate. Um I remember a few years ago, I was at a, it was adults. We were all adults, all adults, I'm over the age of 25. Um, and this man started making out with a woman who was passed out drunk on the couch, and we were like, absolutely not. Um, and he didn't understand why, because they had been making out early when she was they'd been vibing, yeah. When she was awake, and we were like, she can't consent, and he he went blank and he didn't understand what does not collapse at all. And without marking this thing, like he's a five-year-old, and he just like it was new to him, which is scary, very scary. It is, it is, it's wild. So, on to our last question. Um, if you are to imagine a feminist future or a feminist world where sexual rights, sexual and reproductive rights are fully, fully realized and like, you know, reachable and just something that we enjoy and that we all have. Um enjoy the right to. What would it mean for people to experience sexuality, not through fear or shame, but through autonomy, safety, and joy?
SPEAKER_04I feel you just answered your own question that they would experience those things through safety, autonomy, and joy. But I guess you want more from me, don't you? You did, you literally answered your own question. Bless your heart. You're right, you're right, you're right. I don't know why you're here. Like I don't know why I'm here. I'm just I'm here for the vibes, clearly. So you're not in a room screaming into the abyss, but it's okay. I got you. Um, like the way you said, like just doing it through a lack of, like even the idea of fear being so like in the past, right? So not even like being like, oh, the absence of fear, it's even the forgetting of fear. Um, the forgetting of not being able to navigate spaces. And I think a feminist future and a feminist space of that, a reality of that would be deep fluidity, right? I think once the fear is gone, and the fear of like the fear and the fear of the shame, the fear of, you know, bad sexual experiences, the fear of the violence, the fear of the everything. I I always have this not very popular view, especially around straight folks, that like everybody be a little fruity, right? Everybody would try a little something. Like, you know, even if you're like, ah, cool, it's not for me. More straight men would get pegged because now they don't have that thing of like, oh, but you know, now I'm being dominated. Like a lot of the sort of like hindrances would melt away, right? Because now no one's scared of anything. No one's like fear, like upset that they might get like shamed for something or they might not like something and then have to have the awkward conversation. Then people are getting upset, like, but I thought you'd want to try this with me, you know. I feel like there'd be a lot more fluidity, not only in people's sexuality, but in like the sort of things people did, right? Like, you know, think about it like ice cream, right? As long as you're not lactose intolerant, most people are willing to try like a whole myriad of ice creams because you know there's there's there's no real repercussions unless you're lactose intolerant. Don't do it. Terrible example if you're lactose intolerant. But for those of us who aren't, and we go to like an ice cream shop and they're like, hey, we're doing this thing where you can try all the flavors. Yeah, like there's like there's like no real repercussions of trying all of the flavors. But now the problem is we live in a world where there are so many repercussions from trying even like anything except like vanilla, like vanilla. So you are a heterosexual person doing missionary to reproduce, finished. Outside of that, like if you talk to like the average couple about like their sex life, you find that like there's a lot of things they would want to try. And we're talking like straight couples here, right? Like straight couples who fit the like Bill, they've got like 2.5 kids, they're like age-appropriate, etc. And you're like, even within those spaces, there's still fear, there's still shame, there's still all of that thing. So in a world where you could just like you know, access the things from like a dope point of view, there would be a lot more fluidity, be a lot more freedom, and people would taste the rainbow. Am I allowed to say that? Is that is that copyrighted? I think that's copyrighted.
SPEAKER_02So I don't know if I can say that. Stunning way to drop the mic. People would taste the rainbow. Love it, love it, love it. Sorry, okay, Tiff. This brings us to the end. But before you go, um tell me one thing that you are going to do today to bring yourself some joy. That muffin I just mentioned.
SPEAKER_04Take care of that. That muffin I just mentioned. Well, let me tell you. Damn, let me tell you. Okay. So, number one, that muffin I just mentioned. Um, I bought a full pack of muffins for my dad, but I don't know, he's like in his health boy era, so whatever, he didn't eat the muffins. Um, so I've got muffins in the cupboard. I'm gonna have a cup of tea, and then I'm probably gonna go for hoop today. And so I will see all my cult friends as we like to call each other. Yeah. Hoop, like, so not pole, like not pole dancing, so like hoop.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the hoop the yes, like you know the circle, like what the circle, yes, oh that thing is oh, I oof, oof, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So, like, because but that's that's if these hands stop like fighting the rain, they're like, Oh, I don't know, we don't know whether we're coming because it's raining. Uh, I don't know why we're like this as a species, but I'm trying to convince them to come because we all have to go for food, it's very important, but yeah, so that's what I'm gonna do. And I'm gonna spend the day just being happy in my house. Most days I bring myself joy these days. I love it, except therapy days. Therapy days are very hard.
SPEAKER_02Okay, Tiff, thank you so much for joining us. Um, did you enjoy being on the other side of the mic? Because it's usually you hosting.
SPEAKER_04It's a lot of work being on the other side. You gotta think of stuff to say. Think of stuff. It's wild, wild. I should have prepped, but it's fine. You did amazing. Thank you. I love this for me. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Mamelosaji, edited and engineered by Arnold Julian and brought to you by Athena Network. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, share, and subscribe. You can find our podcast on BuzzSprout and Spotify. Just search hashtag whatgirls want, a podcast.