Episode 43 - Care, Resistance, Power: Feminist Leadership in an Age of Crisis

Pandemics, authoritarianism, and economic instability are reshaping feminist organising. This episode and in conversation with Marline Oluchi we explore what leadership looks like in a polycrisis focusing on adaptability, care-centred leadership, collective decision-making, and sustaining movements for sustainable change. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There is a lot of fear, there is a lot of chaos, there is a lot more violence, there is a lot of anxiety as well, because so many people now don't know what next. Which means even the people we are working with, all our colleagues within the movement, are also living within this fear. I feel like being a feminist leader uh transcends just walk into our personal space because a lot of times the work we do, uh the kind of work we do within the uh feminist movement and uh the queer justice movement sort of filters back into our day-to-day lives.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

To our new friends, hi, and to our old friends, welcome back. I'm your host, Mamelosa Jake, the advocacy and communications lead at Athena Network. Good day, hello, good morning, my friend. Hi, good morning, I'm fine, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. So happy it's Friday.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

I know Friday.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Although these days weekends don't feel like weekends anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

People are just running over, they don't, but just like the mercy of the of the little time that we have. Um we don't have to be on the clock and opening emails if you've got the privilege of that and on the phone. Take what we can get.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, I can get you.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Take what we can get. Um okay. So can you start first of all? How you feeling? How are you feeling in your body?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

So so, but I'm okay. Just uh it's a very slow and cold morning, so yeah, but I'm good, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Great to hear. Um, will you start off by introducing yourself to our listeners, please?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Oh, okay. I think I struggle a lot with verbalizing my identity nowadays in a work sense. Hi, yeah, but I'm uh Marlene Oluchi. I work as the policy and advocacy leader chefs. Uh Chefs is a regional um feminist square organization programming across Africa. And I'm also a scientist. Uh currently trying to do some research around um climate crisis and biodiversity loss. Uh yeah, so hopefully, yeah, hoping to find a way to bring that back into the community because it's work we don't really do as much as we should, especially for queer communities. Yeah, so that is me in a nutshell. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

So your your policy works work expands beyond the chefs' role.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

The chefs I've been with chefs for three to four years now, but I've worked within the uh feminist and uh quest space and the development space generally in Africa for the past uh 11 years now. Yeah, just yeah, pretty much my entire um lift into adult years, to all my adult years. Yeah, so um I work, I do a lot of work around movement building, I do a lot of work around policy making. Uh, mostly do I do in-country uh policy reviews and uh policy influencing, but also do a lot of work at the AU and UN, but just primarily around climate, primarily around um feminist and gender frameworks, and also do policy making around queer justice. And yeah, that's pretty much what I've been doing with my life for yeah, they get close.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Okay, we're so blessed to have people like you in the movement.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Blessed to work with the movement, different hats.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, I think that's the very unique thing with our movement. Like um, it's so fascinating how we uh see people that while they do advocacy, because a lot of the times the kind of advocacy we do is from necessity. Uh without patriarchy, without homophobia, we won't be, we won't need to do this work. So a lot of us in the movements do the work within the movements from a place of necessity, but then we still also have like other life pathways. Uh, like although I work within the climate crisis space, but like my uh interest initially was just being a biological scientist. So yeah, it's interesting how we wear so many hats and bring all of that overview and different uh sectors of life to the work we do within the movement.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

So tell me and indulge me in something if you weren't working doing the advocacy work that you're doing and in development, what would you do?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Um, I think my dream job is to be a trophy wife to like a badass feminist, you know, and I'm just sitting in the background and putting on the fire, but just sipping my margaritas on like a Monday morning somewhere on the island. Hello. But other more serious note, I would probably be um on a farm somewhere writing movie scripts and writing books, basically. Um, I've always been a writer, so that's like my creative outlets. So if I was not doing this, I would be doing that full time. It's dunning.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

I love that. I also wouldn't mind a little stint being a housewife.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I know not housewife, drop your wife, that's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Put down the struggle for five years, you know, fight for my luxury, you know? Okay, so let's get into it. So we are currently living within multiple crises. Um it's called a polycrisis, right? Um so how is the current polycrisis like climate collapse, pandemics, authoritarianism, and economic instability reshaping what feminism, feminist leadership looks like in practice?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Um, I think we can all first of all agree that it's been one of the most uh really difficult, uh sort of precedented but unprecedented times of our lives. Uh I don't think uh three, four years ago we anticipated that um things would get as bad as they have gotten for um uh work around gender equality primarily, uh, and being feminists who work within this movement, especially at the forefront, at the grassroots. We did not expect that the kind of polycrisis that exists would be. We did not expect that the kind of uh genocides. Um I think I struggle to also call a lot of what is happening around the world a war because it's mostly genocides happening in separate different countries. Uh like 10 years ago, a decade ago when I got into the movement, I don't think we expected that the world would dissolve into what it is right now, which makes the um it's difficult to be a leader in a space where you are fighting for uh justice, first of all. It is a very difficult context of leadership and feminist leadership as well, which which uh of course requires us to have feminist values while um in our leadership positions, which means looking at how we um how we share power, looking at how we uh lead by doing, looking at how we uh the term redefine the term leadership itself as an action word of doing and uh being equal as opposed to a top-bottom model of traditional uh mainstream leadership definitions that is difficult on its own within our context, especially within our context in Africa, even within the feminist movement, the mainstream feminist movement, it is a difficult uh thing to uh live by. And then having to do it with uh so many push, so much pushback and so many constraints. I would say, in all honesty, that it's been it's been a lot difficult within the movements, right? It's a time where people have to really step up, right? It's a time where things that would usually just fly by don't fly by anymore. It's a time where people in leadership positions, especially within uh workspaces, have to sacrifice a whole lot more. There are so many crises going on. So as a leader, you are not prioritize, you don't have the luxury to prioritize some things you used to prioritize before. You don't have the luxury of even having your own self and putting yourself into focus as you should because fire it's like the house is on fire, so um, you have to like be on the move, you don't have that time to pause and breathe. So it's it's very difficult being a leader, a feminist leader into this landscape. And yeah, it's just it's not ideal, it's challenging us as well, like it's requiring a lot of um self-interrogation, it's requiring a lot of intentionality to actually look at what we're doing and how we're doing it right. Yeah, it's just it's just created this landscape where being a feminist leader is demanding so so so much more than usual, which yeah, which questions a lot of things about how we work and the space we work in and how we are expected to exist in it and survive.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

It requires a very particular politic um and holding ourselves to uh particular standards that I think not all people who assume leadership positions need to. Um, and as you say, the house is on fire, and thinking about your politics and you know what the what what feminism means in practice when the house is on fire is not yeah, yeah, it's not so in moments of crisis, leadership often becomes centralized and top top down. What does it mean to actively practice collective and decentralized feminist leadership in these contexts? Or you know what?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

I feel like if Okay, if you'd like to expand on that. Yeah, I'm I okay, let me just expand a bit. Like uh again, uh being decentralized in the way we uh lead within the movement, being decentralized and even in our daily lives, because I feel like being a feminist leader uh transcends just work into our personal space because a lot of times the work we do, uh the kind of work we do within the uh feminist movement and uh the queer justice movement sort of filters back into our day-to-day lives. Like it's there's this interconnection and inter it's interwoven, right? And I think uh this time around, again, it requires a lot of intentionality to decentralize power. Because again, the little power that we have, we we spend our lives speaking to power in our work and everyday life, everything we do. And when you are in a situation where even that little power, that little voice you had is being squashed, right? It and someone has to step up, like a lot more people have to, a lot more people are regressing and retreating because and not having not of their own volition. For let me give an example. So many spaces where we need to be in, where we need to be in for um the kind of change we're demanding across social justice movements for women and for other minorities. Those quests those spaces we are be we are no more having access to them as we should, especially political spaces. And these are spaces where decisions about our lives, our autonomy, and how we exist and move within the world are being made on like it's continuous, it's not stopping to wait for this crisis to be over. Now, in that situation, we don't even have that access to be in these spaces as much as we do anymore. There are just very few feminist leaders who still struggle to ensure that we are represented in these spaces. So being in that position and being in a place where you also know that this work has to be done, but you trust others who can do it to be there to do it for us. And you also realize that you don't need to, like if you can be in the room, you can build something that would influence what happens in the room. I don't know if that makes sense. Recognizing that and being able to hold peace, being able to support others who could do the room, who could do the room, walk the room and do the work for us, I think that's in its own calls for a lot of uh a lot of humility, a lot of decentralization of power, a lot of questioning of what being in the room even means for us. Is it personal representation? Is it uh is it the work actively getting done in the room? Is it about who is in the room or what is being done in the room for us?

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Right?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

So, yeah, it requires a lot of again, introspection of what your feminist values are in practice, a lot of decentralization of power, a lot of ability to uh delegate, to collaborate. Like, I think the biggest thing we're uh we're doing that can work within this context right now is collaboration, our ability to like build our movements, to sustain it by working with each other, by collaborating and decentralizing power in a very practical way. I think, yeah, that is that is the picture I have in mind right now.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

I also think that there's a very serious conversation, both internally and externally, that people need to have about what it really means to decentralize power. There's many people who many feminists, many people who call themselves feminist leaders who I think still hold on to power very very deeply. Um have you heard the the the expression I can't believe I mean I can't remember where it comes from, where it says power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, I think. So like and I yeah, so there's that, and also I think for a lot of us who uh are feminists from minor minority communities are so used to not having power um that when we then come into leadership positions, it can be difficult, understandably as a human being, to then, you know, when you've got some power to think about what like not holding on to it and and not sharing it.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, it is difficult, it is difficult, yeah. And I think the one thing I feel like we do a disservice we do to ourselves within the movement is uh refusing to acknowledge that um beyond people, beyond the group of people who like know these things and like still hold on to power for their own personal reasons, there is also that place of, like you said, uh socialization where you did not have power and you have power at some point, and you are looking at okay, what can I do with this power? I can move this, I can move this, I can move this. So it's very easy to center yourself. Yeah, and get keep that power because you are there, you are you know what you want to do, you are doing it, but it's very, very easy to forget that this kind of work we do, it's it's a movement work. Yes, you are working for your community, which means the whatever power you hold is not yours to begin with, it's power for the community, which means it should be shared where it should be shared, which means someone else can also step in and do that thing. So I think we forget that a lot of the times, and we also are not honest enough many times to admit that it's not uh these are conversations we should have because there are also groups of people who just don't realize that this is a problem that it's happening even with them.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah, I love that the power that we have is not for us, but for the community. So care is often invisible in traditional leadership models. What does care-centered leadership look like, and how can movements prioritize care without burning out?

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Without burning out in today's reality, it's difficult to conceptualize because we are seeing people burning out around us front, right, center. We ourselves are drowning and trying not to burn out as well, and we are burning out in bits and you know, recoping and trying to stay on the work. So it's difficult. But I feel that this is also like um as much as it's difficult because we are also functioning within way more limited resources than usual, right? Which means a crisis is ongoing, funding is prioritized, human capacity uh is prioritized to respond to the crisis, everything is being channeled to hey, we need to respond to this uh to this crisis and and you know, rescue ourselves and like push back and do all of these things. It's very easy to forget care within that context. It's very easy to make it uh to not even to make it a part of but not an accompaniment, to not centralize care. Meanwhile, this is when we need care the most, because this is yeah, this is a critical time and we're doing critical work. So it's um, I think it's that knowing that you know what, uh this is a difficult time for everybody. Uh, knowing that if you're working with teams, if you're working with the community, if you're working with the movement, realize that things are not business as usual, people are seriously shouldering a lot, there is a lot of fear going on. There is a lot of fear, there is a lot of chaos, there is a lot more violence, there is a lot of um anxiety as well because so many people now don't know what next.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

What is the next thing coming from? What is gonna happen next? What are they gonna take away from us next? Which means even the people we are working with, all our colleagues within the movement, are also living within this fear because they are also doing this work with us. So it's very important for us to realize that we need a lot more consideration while working with one another and for one another within a time like this. We need a lot more consideration, we need a lot more kindness than usual, we need a lot more um, we need to try to, despite limited resources, to create spaces where we just hold each other and try to like it's it's at the time I used to say that it's a time like this that we uh actually sometimes someone just needs someone to talk to, someone just needs someone to break down to or break down with because hey, you understand how difficult it is right now. So I think it's it's that time where as a movement we need grace the most, we need to extend grace the most to one another because we should remember that everybody, all of us, uh uh dealing with this on an individual level, dealing with it in uh work capacity, dealing with it at a community level, dealing with it as a continent as well. There are so many layers to everything we're dealing with, and all of that accumulates and still transitions into our work. There is no break. So, how do we extend grace? How do we hold space for one another? How do we ensure that whatever we're doing, there is a lot, there is a higher level of consideration than we usually would have. I think it's very important and key at a time like this.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yes, I agree, I completely agree. Kindness, consideration, checking in on each other. Yeah, yeah, and again, the house is on fire, so you need to. Make sure that you don't go up in flames alongside it and think about how we can hold each other and care and be kind. And I think also maybe like bringing on holding on to power with their with their life, that there's also space there to make room for or to lessen the I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

To lessen the load. Yep, yep, yep. When you because you're doing a kindness to yourself, it's just like uh, for example, someone in an office who does not know how to delegate. The moment you finally learn how to delegate and trust that others would do the work well, you realize you'd have more space now to do other things. So that is like care for yourself as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Yeah. I agree. Um, so how are feminist movements adapting their strategies to remain responsive and relevant and rapidly shifting political and economic landscapes?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

I think one really great thing I've uh realized, uh, at least in the past, let me say, the past one year, with the way we're organizing across the movement in so many spaces I've been in, is that um we're beginning to act, we have been having these conversations for years, but we had not been actioning. But we're beginning to look within our movements and find what resourcing within in and of ourselves looks like. We're beginning to look at what we can do without external, because a lot of the crisis is coming from the fact that all most of our work was dependent on external resourcing. Most of all the policies we want enacted were not dependent on us, but dependent on our different governments and different multilateral institutions where these policies and laws are being made. So many things were dependent on external forces. A lot of the rising anti-right uh movements organizing and push for very hostile environments for us is coming from external forces that we did not pay as much attention to. So a lot of the feminist movement now is moving from a place where we're just looking at immediate needs to actually programming with a lens of how can with a lens of sustainability and also programming from a place of preparedness. I think there is almost every place I enter to now, I keep hearing the question, oh my God, we need we have to get to where we stop responding only and start preparing. How do we get prepared and not just, yeah. So it's it's something that we're becoming very more conscious of now. And I think it's changing the ways we the ways we are approaching the work we do, the way we are approaching um uh diplomacy, the way we're approaching uh even programming within the movement, like for the movement, for our communities, but internally, internal programming and external programming, it's it's sort of changing. The landscape is changing, how we do things is changing. People are not just thinking now of, for example, oh, uh we need to implement this project here, we need to do this uh this this uh really cool thing here that would that would impact on our community. But we're thinking, okay, if who do we who do we partner with? How do we sustain this? Who are others that are working within this space that we can you know mobilize with and ensure that this project is beyond us? That a lot more of that is happening, a lot more partnerships are being forged because we are realizing that uh part of the reason why we're here is because we've been siloed for so long in the work we do. We have not really been, I mean, one of collaborations and partnerships are good, but we have not really paid so much attention to like unifying our movement in a way that we are moving as one. Yeah, so most a lot of effort is going into that now, and I think that is very uh that is something we have needed for so long, and that is one of the cushions that is cushioning how much impact the current poly crisis and everything happening is having on us. We are able to like really come together and walk beyond ourselves. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

I was also gonna say like this is the time to really tap into partnerships and collaboration because there's only so much that you can do and think of in isolation. And two minds, three minds, four minds are always better than one.

unknown 26:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

And this also then goes to decentralizing power, right? So we aren't like all fighting against each other for a small part of the a small piece of the pie when we could work together and realize that the pie is none of the pie, the peace is not lost if we share it amongst each other.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

I think we're realizing right now that uh credits, glory, all of those things don't matter if we cannot survive. So those things were like very peripheral and they really did not matter in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. We're not surviving.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

So, in contexts where civic space is shrinking, how can feminist leaders continue to organize, mobilize, and protect their communities?

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah, I think one of the most important things we need to keep doing because we are already doing it, is what I just mentioned, uh, realizing that this work is not um, it's no more, we're no more in the landscape that uh organizations are like, you know, my organization programs this, my organization does this, my organization does this one. We have moved way far from that to a place where if we really want impact, we need to like do this work together, which means uh there is there is very little room for silent work anymore. It's the only way we build our power back, it's the only way we um we were able to like make useful, like make the uh the limited resources we have at the moment very useful and multiply the impact it would ordinarily have had. So it's very important and very key at this moment to realize again that power is not the power we hold in whatever capacity is not our power. We are holding it for the community, which means this is time to look at how that power can really be shared. Who do we want to bring into the work we are doing? Who else is doing the kind of work that we know that we can make contributions to that would benefit the movement right now? It's time to start reaching out, it's time to start asking questions of hey, I know how to do this, can I contribute to this? Hey, you are doing this, we can come into this in this way, we can support what you're doing in this way, hey, we are doing this. Do you have the capacity to come in and support? Because we realized at some point that all of this work, in even in the asiloed ways, was designed to trigger, triple, trigger, to trick to uh titrate down into the society and impact our lives, even if we are not direct beneficiaries. And that is what we need to recognize now that the work, the the the the the way things have moved, everything has changed, the landscape has completely changed. And I'm not sure things will ever go back to the way it used to be, where it's just like traditional organizations, traditional programming, traditional organizing. Things have moved way beyond that. We need to really find a way to work together and work together well, which means also we need to grow to the mindset where I think that's one thing I've realized we're struggling with a lot within the movement. We're still struggling with um with doing things where doing things that would benefit the entire movement, but like where we don't get some sort of uh personal compensal um direct profits or compensation or benefits for ourselves and our organizations. So, in that capacity, we are struggling a lot to feel ownership of whatever work that is and to like bring our whole selves into it. I'm in several consortiums that have been set up to like uh to mitigate some of the crises happening in different parts of our continent. And this is something I keep seeing coming up. And I keep asking the question this is our work. Like who is taking ownership of us, of it if not us? Yes. Yeah, we need to grow to that mindset where we do realize that this is much needed work within the movement, which means we have to come together to do it, which means when we come together to do work like this at this scale, especially responding to the kind of really dire crisis that are happening, there is no room for looking for benefits, personal benefits for ourselves or our organizations anymore. Will this benefit, will this be very useful for the movement right now? Will this change something? Will this protect something? Will this build an infrastructure that would be needed for the movement? If yes, and you are there and you can do it, come with your whole selves and take ownership and do it. So that is something we need to like, that is what would like give us the foundation to build more resilience and to like, yeah, to like move from to just you know to to have some hope that we're doing something right and it's it's gonna it like we're gonna pull through this period, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, absolutely 100%, 100% and how do power and privilege show up within feminist movements, um and what does accountable intersectional leadership require in these moments?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I think even uh now more than ever we have to again question look at our privilege, first of all. Uh privileges are so diverse within the movement. It could be privileges of having uh, I mean, so many people are being cut off from power, from like contacts, access to contacts, which are very vital for the kind of work we do, especially country, country, uh in-country work, right? Like, do you have access? Do you still have access? Do you still have the contacts that would be useful for the work that is going on for the movement? This is no more time to be gatekeeping. This is time to realize that you know, power means you look at your privilege, you interrogate your privilege, you see what you have, and how that can be useful for the greater good of the movement. That is what being a feminist leader means. You don't have the you don't have the luxury of uh being a leader in a space and at a time of crisis, you don't uh your resources are your resources at a time like this, like resources that are for the movement work. So it's no more time to get keep, get keep access, get keep information, which we do a lot. Like it's something, I think it's something I've I've always been ranting about, even on LinkedIn, about the way we get keep information and get keep access within the movement, even when we know that this is something that would be beneficial to others who work within this space with us, and they would need it to do the work that would still benefit the entire movement, including us, because we are part of the movements we are working for or come from. So I think it's very uh important at a time like this to realize that uh leadership right now means you have some certain privileges, and those privileges should be used for the greater good. Again, removing it, it takes a lot of, I think we are sometimes also like underestimates how we are humans before whatever communities we come from and whatever uh feminist, square, or uh whatever identity we uh whatever movement identity we identify with and work within. We are first of all human beings, and I think we underestimate a lot of the times how difficult it is for so many people to be able to uh decentralize themselves, to be able to like put themselves to the side in a place of power, in a place of resources, in a place of assets, and think of everybody else. So it's it's time where we need to start looking at we I think these are also conversations we need to start having in the movement around how do we interrogate these things, how do we interrogate how our privilege, what privileges we hold, how our privileges play out, and like how we use that privilege as movement leaders.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

I remember I was once at a conference and somebody said when we walk into a room, we need to look around and ask ourselves who's in the room, who's not in the room, and why aren't they in the room? And what do I do with whatever in the with ever capacity of power or privilege do I have? How do I bring them in the room, not just represent them?

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Mm-hmm. That's that's very profound. Um, and I think yeah, a lot of us don't take stock of that. And room now, room in this context metaphorically refers to can refer to the work we're doing right now as well. Like, what do we have? How many like a lot of organizations are struggling, a lot of activists are struggling and don't have access to do the kind of um the kind of very transformational work they have been doing. So I think and many of us are still looking at things from uh from an independent survival lens and not looking at uh the fact that you know what, this is happening, all of this is happening, but I still have uh what what do I still have as an organization? What do I still have as a leader, as an individual leader, as an activist? Do I still have access? How am I using that assess? Who needs that access? And how do I have the capacities to ensure that someone else other than me has that access as well, that needs it to do the work we're doing? Who has resources? Like this is time where we should actually be sharing. And you know that thing where people feel, oh, if if I if if this if I share this information or this resource with this person, it takes away from me. It's just like the human rights we're working on every day. Someone else having rights does not take it away from you. Yes, because it is still coming back to the movement, the work that person is doing when you create that access that you know you can create to aid the work they are doing, they are doing the work for the same movement we are a part of. Yes, we don't have to be the ones to do it ourselves all the time. So I think, yeah, it's it's really time to assess who is in the room, who is not in the room. Can we do something to ensure that people who should be in the room are not in the room because why are not why are they not here? And if we can, why are we not doing something about it? So that is that thing. It takes it takes interrogating your privilege and power to be able to recognize that yeah, this has to be done.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Not always looking outside of other people's privilege, but checking our own. It's very easy to point out other people's privilege um and the ways in which they are misusing it without always being conscientious about what we are doing with the privilege that we have in favor and in labor of or in favor and as a labor, labor of love to our communities. Yep, it is that brings us to the end of our show. Oh this has been great.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, I've learned that for inviting me. Yes, it's been really great talking about this and also in the process of talking, also like self-reflecting on them as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah, it's good, it's important, and I hope we can no no no, we we're always meeting in different spaces, so I hope that we can to do so and to have conversations like this and like remember all the things that you we've spoken about, um about kindness, about privilege, about decentralizing power, and really unpacking what that means about care for our communities, care for ourselves, um about thinking about who's in the room and being intentional about changing that and and and and and and so thank you. We are we give thanks, we're very grateful for you making time to join us.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Thank you, Mamelo. Thanks for inviting me. I had a great time talking to you.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Amazing! Thank you for listening. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Mamelo Sujage, edited and engineered by Arnold Julian and brought to you by Athena Network. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, share, and subscribe. You can find our podcast on Buzzsproute and Spotify. Just search hashtag whatgirlswant, a podcast.