Let's Keep Talking with Braxton Gilbert
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Let's Keep Talking with Braxton Gilbert
A monk, clinical psychologist & NY times Best Selling Author | Thomas Moore
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If this episode doesn't make you a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and an Atheist in one punch.. you may be too deep in the matrix.
Thomas Moore is a former Monk. He spent nearly 30 years a jungian clinical psychologist. He's written over 20 books including two of my personal favorites: Care of the Soul, and A Religion of One's Own ... and he's this week's guest!
We talked at length about cultivating a personal, sacred, relationship with the divine. Building your own religion and learning to draw close to the painful parts of life to give them the loving care WE ALL NEED. We also talked about beginning to interpret dreams, and seeing our personal mythologies reflected in Greek Mythologies.
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Thomas Moore
Speaker 2Ahhhhhhhh , man , do you ever talk to somebody and just completely deflate in their presence because you realize you don't know jack shit about shit ? One of my former partners used to say you know , I don't know shit about fuck . That's how I felt talking to Thomas Moore . Man , it's was such a privilege , such a blessing , such an awesome opportunity . I told my friends I felt like I had a cheat code in the world and that is just have a podcast . Just have a podcast , start a podcast and you can talk to some of the coolest people in the world . Man , thomas Moore .
Speaker 2I originally discovered Thomas Moore because I read his book the religion of one's own , and that book was so , so transformative for me , so helpful , and opened my mind up to the ideas of spirituality and personal spirituality's , personal health through a personal religion and God . That was so great . And then , years later , stumbled across his book care of the soul , which is so amazing , talking about giving care for an aching , sick soul forever , not trying to cure it , but just being present for the changes in our life as they unfold . Amazing , amazing stuff . Anyways , today we have the wonderful Thomas Moore I can't even believe I'm saying that the wonderful Thomas Moore with us today .
Speaker 2He is , I think , 83 years old , a absolute sage of an old man full of wisdom . If you're watching this , thomas , thank you so much for joining me on the show . He was a monk formerly and then spent about 30 years as a psychotherapist , specializing in kind of Jungian psychology , and then begin writing in 1990 or so , wrote about 20 books , and one of those being the care of the soul , which is one of my all-time favorite spiritual books and what else . He lectures across the world on spirituality , religion and therapy and made the fatal mistake of deciding to Join me for an hour and a half of my questions on a podcast and you get the wonderful privilege of listening to that . So , without further ado , here is my wonderful conversation with a wonderfully , beautifully wise , wise soul , thomas Moore . I have to tell you , your work has has helped me tremendously .
Speaker 3Oh , I'm so glad I .
Speaker 2Read , I read . I read the book a religion of one's own when I would say probably seven years ago , and what I gained from it was the , the curiosity being raised , very religious , from a you know black and white , what's the truth , what's not the truth . Not so much a fire and brimstone kind of salvation , but in some regard , yeah , I was struggling with my , the way that the religion had fit me and some of the difficulties that over identifying with this super moral and and washed white as snow person was causing me to develop some of these suppressed personality traits in the way they were manifesting in my life and my . My therapist recommended your book and Reading .
Speaker 2Reading a religion's a one , a religion of one's own , cracked my brain open . It really did . I thought , okay , what's this guy talking about here ? What's this guy talking about here ? It's like there's this function of religious practice . It's like there's this deeper More , like the healthy application of religion , like a health , like a well-being that can be derived from religious practices and that that maybe people are getting too caught up in . Which one to to is to follow which one is right , which one is the right one , as opposed to To using them as inspirations . Cooking with a little bit of this one and tasting a little bit of this one and letting letting that process Be aimed at entirely spiritual well-being . I have a background in fitness and so the the analogy that came up for me during that process was that it would be ridiculous for me as a as a person with a certain experience and fitness , with certain biases of you know my favorite ways to get in shape To point the finger at someone else who's in shape by a different method and say that's wrong .
Speaker 3Makes no sense .
Speaker 2Yeah , so thank you so much for that . Thank you so much for that
Explore Care for the Soul
Speaker 2book . I .
Speaker 3Loved writing that book and I , you know , I think I wrote about Four versions of it . I was cleaning out our storage room the other day and I was trying to take books out and I found Four complete manuscripts on that same theme that were that I didn't publish , so I weren't trying to get around to making that book the way I wanted it to be .
Speaker 2What was the hardest aspect of it ? What were you wrestling with to get right ?
Speaker 3There was so much to say and I didn't want a 700 page book , so Whittling it down to the essentials was the most difficult thing . Also , you know , the other thing about substance is that I'm aware that people are all in different places in regard to religion . So there are people who are members of established religion so , I think , are doing pretty well . My mother and dad were good Catholics all their lives and I think they I think they benefited greatly . They they handled it extremely well . I wouldn't Want them to do it any differently . On the other hand , there are many people that I meet that are searchers , looking for an answer , looking for a home , and I wanted to speak to those people very much and I realized when I was writing it that I'm I used to be a searcher and a hunter like that , but I'm no longer that . And what do ?
Speaker 3you mean I wanted to write to the people who are in that place , to help them bridge the gap and and and also people who are not interested , who are consider themselves agnostic or atheist . I always say that I have agnosticism and atheism in me Totally , but it's there . I have a dose of each . So I wanted to address everyone in a way that they would feel at home with me , and I think that's what took me a while , a few times , before I got it .
Speaker 2I Was listening to that book during a time where I was kind of in atheism and and had gotten rid of God as the answer and as the , the holder of my salvation and and for me that felt a little . It felt freeing to , to rid myself of my . You know the religion that was kind of a hammy down set of morals and and rituals , but it also felt a little cold . You know it didn't have the . There was a wonderful aspect in that book that , and even in the book the care of the soul that I read a couple years after that , that that really touched me and and inspires me to this day , is a way that I approach the moments in my life , trying to be some , trying to be soulful and and Attend to the , the moments that pass in my life , with the same sincerity that you do religious ritual . Can you talk a little bit about that , about imbuing the , the passing moments , with sincere Soul and with connecting to the divine in in daily life ?
Speaker 3I Can I remember that it's my own . I'm speaking for myself , then , and I have a kind of I Mean . I've devoted myself to these questions all my life . I didn't do it intentionally , but it just happened that way . I almost accidentally got a PhD in religious studies Talked to me because I was not interested in religion . So my current state that way is that I am very much influenced by many , many spiritual traditions that Don't want you to name , even use the name God like .
Speaker 3San Buddhism , for example . You know , there's no God talk there and .
Speaker 3The doubt of Jing , which is a big , big source of my spiritual way , is says you know that you should not Speak of which you know it shouldn't be spoken , and that's I feel that way about it . So I give a talk titled I rarely use the name God , or I rarely use the word God , and it's true , I rarely , rarely use that use the word , because I think the word God is . The purpose of it is to Break up any ideas we have about God .
Speaker 3Hmm it's the word God should be used kind of as a Kind of a cleanser , you know , kind of a something you use to clean up your idea . So you keep it open . I think . I think God has to deal with living on the edge of your existence , where you don't know really what it's all about , you don't know where you're headed . I think that's the human condition and it's not a bad place , I think it's a very good place and as far as I'm concerned , anything less than that , where you have to create something you know , something more formal and more rigid , is a defense against life .
Speaker 2It's a way of escaping life .
Speaker 3And so that's my point of view , that I want to keep religion in the deep sense of that word , existential sense of the word , not an institution . But I don't want to keep the word God in a way that will keep me , keep me away from the edge .
Speaker 3I want to be there where I don't know what's next . I want to be standing on the edge . It's like the tarot card , where the fool stands on the mountain and it just looks like he's just about ready to fall over . I think that's a good place to be .
Speaker 2Yeah , are you saying that God for in your mind , using God as a kind of like a boxed up , taped and closed ? I know that , well , I got God right here and that's not really the way that works best for you , but instead that thrusts you into the curiosity and wonder of the experience of life .
Speaker 3Yes , and I don't mean to say that everyone should be like that . I really don't . Sure I think there are many options .
Speaker 2Just Thomas , I really wanted to spend a little bit of time , specifically for our listeners , talking about a concept that has impacted me so wonderfully from your book , the Care of the Soul , and the theme that resonates throughout the entire book is cure versus care . When I told a friend of mine this morning that I had a conversation set for nine o'clock , I shared with him the care of the soul and told him that the wonderful thing about it was and forgive me if this is incorrect , but the origin of the word psychotherapy and the Greek psyche and theropause is something like the soul and theropause being care , but in the sense of caring for someone who's terminally ill and the sense that you're showing up and attending to the needs , not really with the idea that you're going to get them on the other side without sickness . And how starkly different that idea of nursing and caring for a soul as it shows up in life , how starkly different that is from psychotherapy , the way we understand it today , which is cure me so I can get on with it .
Speaker 3That's right . Yes , absolutely . That's at the beginning of care of the soul and I thought of writing that book . First of all , I realized I was aware that the word psychotherapy from its Greek roots are exactly care , soul , care of the soul . So I thought , maybe this , I mean I thought really in a very extravagant way , that care of the soul could replace the idea of therapy as we know it In psychology too
Psychology and the Mystery of Soul
Speaker 3. Psychology has those similar roots Psyche is there , soul and the logos . Psychology and Psyche and logos and logos really means mystery , there's a mystery . So if I do psychology , I'm talking about the mystery of the soul .
Speaker 2What was the logos ? Sorry , I was making a quick note when you said that Logos means mystery .
Speaker 3I mean , that's not it To explain logos . It would take quite a while , Sure . But , it means a lot of things , but essentially , as I look at it , it means maybe a mysterious understanding of things , like understanding the mystery of the psyche would be a definition of psychology from its roots , understanding the mystery of the psyche of the psyche and itself is somewhat of an oxymoron , but it settles in your soul quite well .
Speaker 3That's right . That's right . You can't understand it . But you don't understand it . That's why it's not a good . What I just said is probably not accurate to say you can't understand the mystery . It means but there is a kind of logos , means that the world makes sense , that there's some order in the world . That's one meaning of the word logos , and another meaning for it is that we have in ourselves the capacity to grasp that order . That's out there .
Speaker 3That's the traditionals , but that word's been used that way for at least two or three thousand years . So this is profound stuff . We talk about psychotherapy and psychology . These are profound ideas , but we have reduced them to kind of academic disciplines and methods , and it's much more than that .
Speaker 2It strips them the way that I've learned psychotherapy growing up in America , along with our medical system , it does strip the wonder , the curiosity out of the process of being healthy and the obsession that we have with feeling better .
Speaker 2It makes us skip the reality of the pain we feel and the message that it carries . Something that sticks with me from your work that's helped me so much is the space and the acceptance of emotions and experiences , not as something to be fixed . Depression may not be something to be fixed as much as it is a part of your experience that could be welcomed , sat with and experienced deeply . And it's interesting to me how there's a different level of responding to that appearance of a negative emotion , as you can either fix it and suppress it . Take an antidepressant , you could drink some extra coffee , go out for drinks a little more often than you ought to , and you could dull that pain . Or you can allow it to show up in its entirety and maybe not heal it but understand the origin of that darker emotion . And just because of that , maybe at that point that is the caring of the soul . That's not that you're not depressed anymore , but I understand it on a deeper level , which makes me oddly feel a lot better .
Speaker 3Yes , one of the big issues , themes that I learned from my friend James Selman , who was a wonderful psychologist , is that there are a lot of things going on in the psyche at the same time . He called it psychological polytheism , referring to the Greek mythology , where each of the gods and goddesses has a certain part of life that they empower . And so that's an interesting thought in regard to what you're saying now , because I think it's possible to try to listen to your symptom , if it's depression or jealousy or whatever it is .
Speaker 2Anger .
Speaker 3Anger yeah , that could be anger . A lot of these things we have to deal with . At the same time , we could listen to it and really hold it and see what it wants from us . I think that's a good question . What does this Pain want from us ? Hmm ? Wonderful questions change or some understanding or something it wants from us that's the same .
Speaker 3Well , it's the same time . We can Want it to go away . That's what I'm saying . It's polytheistic . You can want it to go away and you don't have to resolve that . You have to . You don't have to choose one or the other , you can live both .
Speaker 2Hmm , does . Do you think that some ? Do you think it's possible that you know depression might want you to to to make some shifts in your life ? Maybe that's what it wants ? Do you think it ever just wants to be noticed , just seeing ?
Speaker 3I think , see , depression is is something that for most people is probably most people is One of the many moods that we can get into then there , often there are reasons for being depressed . Most many of my friends today , and myself too , are depressed over what's happening in world politics , national politics and in the world . You know , wars that we have now that Feel so , so discouraged that we're still doing that kind of thing , is still having to deal with it and still have these , these leaders that Don't have any humanity in them , and we still have that and it's discouraging and depressing for a lot of people .
Speaker 3On the other hand , some people are depressed and they don't know why . They just feel it is feel depressed . Others have a Like an illness of depression . It's really something that has got a hold of them , and it may take years for them to work it through .
Speaker 3But , I say work it through . The way I would work it through is to listen to it , hold it and not just have your intent , an intention of trying to cure it . That's what I'm talking about polytheism , you , you , you say I need to experience this . At the very same time , I wish it would go away .
Speaker 2You . I think about a child crying in the backseat , you know , and you going . I just wish this , I wish I could get rid of this . You know , if it was your child you wouldn't want to just stop it next , to stop light and throw it out . You know it's important to get to have to have it , to hold it , to nourish it , to in , at the very least just be there , that's certainly true .
Speaker 3So , yes , you want to hold that and that's it . Maybe , maybe that's a good example I don't know , but of having something , yeah , something in your sphere , in your world , in yourself . That is very difficult and you would like to get rid of it , but at the same time , you realize this is , this is natural , it's part of the ups and downs of life and I can't just keep getting rid of everything . Yeah , is that the beginning of ?
Speaker 2maturity of spirituality . What is it that ? That once someone makes that decision in their mind that , okay , you know what , I'm not going to get rid of the things that that are , that are painful and difficult , I'm going to create more space so that they can come up , what is what processes that begin for someone on a psychological , spiritual , soulful ?
Speaker 3Well , there are probably several processes , one that comes to my mind . It's a bit complicated . I'll start by saying that one of the things that people have to do is people have to do in life is to separate from their family of origin , from their early childhood . They have to make a separation so they don't keep living with those same infantile understandings of things . There's a lot of child thinking going on and that is not useful . We have to be adults . So that's one thing . But there's something similar where we we live in a society that Creates a mythology for us , that creates a story , a narrative that we all live , unconsciously . We don't think much about it , but we live it like modern life we live , and part of the modern mythology is if you're having any pain , get something to take to get rid of it . If it can be compressed into a pill , that's like having a myth , a mythology pill . It's like you get , instead of dealing Separating from the narrative that you're living .
Speaker 3That's quite woven into our culture and therefore , quite unconscious , as we participate in , we look for something to get rid of , just the sensation of not being happy living that bit so I think there's a separation needed , both from our family background and from the culture in which we live , not entirely and not and not like a complete yeah , not a complete denial of it or a separation , but but maybe you know , I would used to be a monk . We used to say as a monk , you have to resist the world . They call the contemptus mundi , which means resistance to the world . We're in that , we're in this community of monks now , because we want , we want to be in the world , but we also want to resist being totally absorbed by it . You want to a different life .
Speaker 2Do you say that that starts the process of individualization from your family or your culture ? Because you're able to feel the , the Souls , response to some of the , the institutions , or some of the dogmatic , some of the things that are handed to you heavily . If you allow yourself to feel the pain that is a response to that , then you can begin to , to begin to create change in your own world . And if you don't , if you're not willing to feel the pain of it , then you're not able to connect with where you're truly being hurt .
Speaker 3Yes , that's certainly true . It's one way . I think there are other ways , but one way of separating is to feel the discomfort and pain and disorientation , a lot of things that we feel that aren't working . We don't usually blame the society , we usually blame ourselves or most likely blame our parents , but I think the society is largely a fault , which means that we have to have a relation to our culture that is complex , where we accept some things and don't accept others , and I think I think I've always said this when I first published Care of the Soul that we have to be eccentric , you know , we have to not fit into anything .
Speaker 2What does that word mean ?
Speaker 3Keep your individuality , you need to certain a level of eccentricity .
Speaker 2What does eccentric mean ?
Speaker 3It means that you don't fit in to everyone else's idea of how to live You're odd .
Speaker 2you're not bad , and it's important that that eccentricity is a result of the soul inhabiting you spontaneously , not as a character that you dreamed up and decided to play .
Speaker 3No , I think that the eccentricity I'm talking about is the kind that evolves when you have lived with a soulful life , which means you let this deeper source of your life affect you and that you stay close in touch with it and you take your chances as you live . You don't try to live safely all the time , but you know that sometimes you have to step out and be different from the crowd .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm expressing .
Speaker 3And that's kind of a beginning of eccentricity .
Speaker 2I would like to shed light on the idea that largely is influenced by the work you've done , that is , your dissatisfaction with life may be from an aching , neglected soul and your fantasies about the future maybe even salvation if it's in religion , or your fantasies of a better world , relationship , job , etc . That'll wash you clean of all your unsatisfaction , maybe perpetuating the lack of care you bring to your soul . What kind of things can you talk to our listener about within that domain ?
Speaker 3Well , I think you do have to pay attention
Exploration of Aging, Soul, and Afterlife
Speaker 3to yourself . There's one thing I always say when I give talks on aging I wrote a book on aging a few years ago and I think one part of aging is that you go through . I mean aging I don't mean growing old necessarily , but aging becoming a more mature person . So people age very young . We age when we're teens and when we're pre-teens even , and we age throughout our lives . I think we age when we have experiences that we take on and they transform us a little at a time .
Speaker 3And if you avoid those moments of transformation , that's like avoiding the soul process . I mean , that's the way . I think this idea of progressing in stages like that and through events is more of a soul kind of aging . The other kind is linear , where you're aging every day and it's just unconscious . I think what happens like , let's say , you graduate from high school and now suddenly you're in a whole different kind of life . You're either going to go to a university or college or you're going to get a job , probably , and maybe find a mate that's big deal .
Speaker 3That's very different from being in high school and that is a rite of passage . That's a in-between moment and you have to get through that and it can be very challenging and it can make you feel anxious and many things . Well , if you could go through that experience and really feel what's happening to you and be guided by your emotions and by events , I think that that would be the development of a soulful life .
Speaker 3So to me , creating a soulful life is like really good aging , and that has to do with going , partly with going through these passages that come to us , and there's some big ones and there are some minor ones .
Speaker 2You have to allow that process to move on and be a part of it , instead of trying to cling to a branch in the river and saying no .
Speaker 3I think a lot of people you're right cling to the branch as a way of trying to stay still . Instead of flowing downstream , they want to stay where they are . And I know I've been in that place where I'm hoping to stay where I am and not move further . But it's tempting to try to stay but stay fixed . But that is not the way of the soul . The way of the soul is to move through passages .
Speaker 2Do you believe in reincarnation ?
Speaker 3I don't believe in anything really .
Speaker 2Really , that process of moving through life's lessons to me encourages me to believe in reincarnation , at least as a concept . Not like I would bet my money on it , but it seems to be helpful to frame the painful developments in life . As you're trying to learn lessons , you're not trying to maximize the amount of reward that you get from this quick experience .
Speaker 3Yeah , I can see that I don't mean to be too critical . I said that . What I mean is that there are certain words that don't work for me anymore very well , one of them is belief . There have been some good books written about trying to get beyond belief , because it doesn't make too much difference what you believe . It's kind of like you say , it's like putting your money on something , really yeah . Yeah . I don't see the value in just doing that .
Speaker 3I also don't see much value in the word truth . I never use that that's another word you won't find in the word Very rarely . I use it in a different sense , not a very strict sense , so I avoid those kind of words and instead would rather say talk about insight and values and things like that . So when it comes to reincarnation , you're talking about facing death and afterlife , and I think the religions offer many different solutions and I like to accept all of them . Like I think reincarnation is very interesting and I've been moved by it and I can sit with it for a while comfortably .
Speaker 3I also think heaven is a really good idea . That's where I grew up in my childhood and I like that idea of heaven a lot . I think it's a good solution and so I know it's full of both of these things I think are full of illusion , but I think that they also offer something . So what I do is I accept almost all , including the atheistic one . There's nothing to expect . I accept all those because I think they all give us something , but ultimately , beneath it all , it's unknown . So I'd rather live with the unknown .
Speaker 2For so many people , it's about finding out what to put their money on , because they're scared shitless about what's going to happen when they do meet the grim reaper . For you what ?
Speaker 3It's important if you live a soulful life and you are risking as you go and you let things fall apart , fall away . That's a kind of dying .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 3You're doing it all your life and I think when you come to the end of your life and you know I'm speaking , as you know , I'm 83 I have these thoughts . So I think when you get to that point you might be more comfortable . I feel I feel pretty comfortable . I'm not saying that I'm totally happy with this whole arrangement . I don't like the arrangement about death at all .
Speaker 2Oh , that's funny , man the fear of death . Do you see that as the fear of death diminishes , your ability to stay in a state of wonderment and curiosity about the nature of life grows ?
Speaker 3Yes , and also a willingness to let it all happen . Really , I have been interested in the new physics that's developing out of this big telescope they put up in space . It's challenging ideas about time and about the cosmology , the way our world is put together , about how it began . It's all been changed and people are wondering what to do with it . To me , that's a good occasion to reassess the idea of afterlife , because part of our ideas of afterlife in the past have been based on the old physics . It's not that I think we should let science tell us what's happening I don't but it is a factor and I find it kind of interesting as I now contemplate afterlife .
Speaker 2I want to bring up a couple more things about the book the Care of the Soul and some of the things that I derived from it . Do you think that in some regard , accepting your pain as a constant in life is vitally important to working with it and trying not to get rid of it ?
Speaker 3It depends really what you mean by accepting If it is giving in , probably not . Like I keep saying , we have to do many things at the same time . One of the things you do is try to hold your pain and try to learn from it and see what it's all about . The other thing you do is try not to suffer it too much and not be a victim of it . It's tricky business . A lot of times people make a mistake of trying to choose one over the other of all those options .
Speaker 3You have to hold everything in yourself . At the same time , I think that it's possible to become masochistic about yourself . That means that you find some delight in suffering . It's a very interesting thing that actually people do sometimes enjoy suffering . They look for it . An example ? I'll give you an example Someone who's very jealous . What do they do ? They look for evidence that they've been betrayed so they can feel worse .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , bring it on .
Speaker 3I say they , we . I've been through that . I think that's an example , but I think we do it in many other ways , so we have to be careful of
Masochism's Role in Facing Pain
Speaker 3that . It's very possible to become masochistic , you have to watch out for it , so that you don't become a victim and you don't suffer too much . You have your natural suffering and then you have your suffering from thinking about it .
Speaker 2Yeah , is there in some way , is what I sense and and Today's culture is is like we were talking about earlier the want to escape the pain and the want to cure it and to get on with life in , and what we're really doing is perpetuating the aching soul inside by neglecting it and separating ourself from it and saying that's not me , that's this thing that's Tormenting me or whatnot . Are we in some shadow sense , unconscious way , deeply masochistic and want to just continue suffering instead of facing it head-on ?
Speaker 3Yes , I think so . I think you're right there . There's a lot of masochism around , a lot of a willingness to suffer rather than to live differently , for example , and I find I don't know if I can generalize here but I find that when you allow the suffering in your life that comes along there are really exceptions to this but when you can Give it its place and not just become crazy trying to run away from it , there's a kind of Of joy and happiness that can come through that . When I say that , I'm reminded now of some really good books written maybe 20 years ago by very intelligent people who had cancer and wrote books about their cancer and In dealing with their cancer only taking it on they , they found humor , they found a very positive outlook on life .
Speaker 3I had , I had , a very good friend who was like that . He was a writer in Ireland John Moriarty I Consider one of the best writers at Ireland's produced , and John is wonderful , wonderful guy and the close friend of mine . When he first discovered he had cancer he went on the radio over there in Ireland in those days I think still People listen to the radio a lot . He went on to the radio and told people how horrible it was that he and he was just howling it is dismay of having this cancer and it surprised me because he was such a spiritual , good , spiritual teacher and philosopher all his life . But then I went to visit him Toward the end of his life and he had got through it and and he and I laughed and had a great time and he was very peaceful and .
Speaker 3I talked to him just two weeks before he died and I Felt I learned something from him that it may take a while to reach the point where you can't accept your suffering in that sense of accepting and and then find joy and , yeah , release .
Speaker 2With the thing I wrote down as you were talking is acceptance of pain produces joy .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2Something like that Is that ?
Speaker 3alchemy . It is in a way . It is , yes , it's , it's a transformation of the pain into something else , something , something better , and that would be Transformation is alchemical . In other words , that whole process could be described alchemically .
Speaker 2One of the themes that comes up in the book so much for me that's , that's caused so much opening and expanding and healing in mice , in my heart and and as allowed the experience of life to become so much richer has been the idea of patience , dealing with my soul , and that's such a difference .
Speaker 2One of the difficult , one of the difficult things I think that people Probably have I could speak for myself . One of the difficult things that I had a hard time with , wrestling with your work is the lack of control that comes up because you know I can , I can fix stuff . I can just tell me what I need to fix and I'll fix it . But when your soul just says I'm just hurting , you know I'm just and I just want to be seen , I just want to be felt , I just want the space to express my feelings and then we can get to solutions in three years then that it's like a difficult , it's a shift , it's a different gear all together and I really want to . I really want to encourage the listeners to to consider the way they deal with their pain and and see if patience is something that they could integrate
Understanding and Utilizing Symptom Metaphors
Speaker 2. That seems to be something , so something that I feel so much from From the book the care of the soul .
Speaker 3Yes , absolutely yes , you , you , you don't have to rush to to fix anything . Nothing really needs to be fixed . Um , and as a therapist , I have a lot of people coming to me over the years and my job , I felt , was to Be with them actively with their suffering , but not have the attitude of fixing it and getting to the end of it , but rather to stay with it and see what it would offer . That's the thing the illness can offer something . Yeah , so we always say , following um helmen , again , I always or I'd say my , my community of group following him , would say Stay close to the symptom , don't try to rush into the solution .
Speaker 3Stay close to the symptom and try to listen to the symptom itself and see what it's trying to offer to you . So , for example , the if I go back to the symptom of jealousy , which seems to be really terrible people , you know it's a terrible pain when you're really jealous and it just lasts . You know , no matter what you do , it hangs on . I think it hangs on because it's trying to do something to you . It's trying to teach you how to be in relationship for one thing , hmm , to teach you that you have to Really be vulnerable to the other person . You can't expect them to be doing what you want , like you don't want them to see some other person . Well , too bad , you know . I mean what you , what you want . There is not the point . You have to be able to be with somebody where you're not controlling them so much . Yes , you can ask for limitation , but that's very different from jealous people . Usually they become dictators .
Speaker 2You know they're really so . Instead of what ? Sorry to interrupt you , but instead of what . Instead of doing what with the jealousy ?
Speaker 3Instead of being both firm and vulnerable . That's the solution to do both To be firm with what you want and what you can handle , and vulnerable To letting the other person live their own life , that they are a free person and they have to make their choices . You don't know what their life , what they need in their life , they meaning something it doesn't fit your plans . Well , that's just the way it is and you have to learn about that , and I think jealousy is the way you learn .
Speaker 2This touches a , something that I noted down when reading your , your book , that you mentioned that you like to take , sometimes , things as a therapist . People bring you things they say get rid of this , get rid of the alcoholism , the depression , get rid of my anger , my , my jealousy . And one thing you said I don't have the exact quotation for it , but something that a liking's of I like to make a practice of taking what , taking the thing that they've rejected and giving it back to them in a way that that reminds them of the necessity and usefulness of that particular trait . That's really cool , yes , and you can do that with everything .
Speaker 3Even that , what you'd probably come up with some things you think way . You can't do that with everything , but I think you can . You have to use your imagination , though , and be able to see , see what's going on more subtly . Let's take another example .
Speaker 3Someone is eating too much , you know they're . They're trying to deal with their eating , eating problem , the food problem , and the only way to do that that I can see is to take the eating more metaphorically , more poetically , and to see that eating too much is trying to tell you that , not that you should stop eating and not go through all these diets and everything that will get you to eat less , but rather , in some ways , to eat more . And that would mean but you don't eat literally . It means that you have a maybe a more appetite for life and that you take on more life . You know , chew on life more , eat it , take it into you . So what you do , then , is this taking the symptom on and going into it is that you take it less literally , you know , because when it's totally symptomatic , and causing you pain .
Speaker 3It is literal , it's an acting . And what the solution ? Is to be , more imaginative , and that's what I think the role of the therapist is to be the Kind of the spokesperson for imagination , or and that is that- I'm sorry to interrupt you . No , no , please , is that ?
Speaker 2because the the thing you're experiencing is a symptom of Something deeper . It's just where it decided to poke its finger out and express itself in your life through an eating disorder , and in fact it's a . It's an expression of your lack of getting what you need , your lack of nourishment , and this is just a little funny way it manifests .
Speaker 3Yes , I don't mean to say that the these metaphors are that easy . They're not , I mean , that's what I mean you take a long time to , and I do a lot of dream work because the dreams help transform ordinary life experiences into metaphor . And so we pay attention to the dreams to help us See what's really happening and help us develop the proper mental health and help us develop the proper metaphor for what's happening here and whatever's going on . It's not easy . You don't just get snapped . Decision of what , what the poetry of your symptom is , takes a while to find it and it might be very layered . So some of it may have to do with your childhood and some of it may have to do with Some of the fears you have about living in life and so on . So there are layers . But I think you take the symptom and see that it's a kind of poetry that tells you what you need , but it's telling you in disguise , sort of as an image , and it's a story or a painting something like that .
Speaker 2Um , if you don't mind , I'd like to take a 60 second break . Use the restroom quick , and then I would love to return and talk about dreams a little bit Sure , absolutely . Thank you . Okay , it's hard to have a good talk when you got a pee .
Speaker 3Oh , no , no , no .
Speaker 2Dreams
Exploring Dreams and Greek Mythology
Speaker 2. Um , I have , in the last few months , started to pay more attention to my dreams and part of my self-reflection and and open up my mind and heart to the themes and the dreams , and that's something that's been helpful to me has been I used to write down my dreams and now I write down how I felt and the dreams , which has been a cool layering shift of sorts . Um , it's new for me , though I'm just I'm just beginning this , this practice , uh , the last couple months , of doing it when I have a dream that strikes me as significant , writing down what it made me feel or what it reminded me of . Um , and that's interesting , recently , uh , I'm in a relationship I have a girlfriend I've been with for about two and a half years and this is the the most Committed and present and deep I've been in a relationship ever , and part of me often longs to run fast as hell out of this thing and Looks back at previous relationships and with rose color glasses and says , oh , you know , this was , this was much more desirable than this , compare apples to oranges and that kind of thing .
Speaker 2And there was a particular past relationship that had been mulling around in my mind A little bit that had become my object of desire for a few weeks Of just kind of mental escape . And then I had a dream about that relationship and it was just me sitting across from from that former partner and I was just looking at them . And then I felt this dagger of Right into my heart and it was this familiar pain that I hadn't felt since we had been together , which was her ongoing Sharp , angry attacks that she would thrust at me like arrows . And I woke up from that dream feeling grateful For a reminder of the full picture and I wrote that down For the reminder of the pain that that relationship did come with and that it felt like it allowed me to return my focus to the here and now and to balance back out . Dreams can be an interesting part of our personal discovery , and paying attention to the soul Is what I I pick up from your work . Could you talk a little bit about that ?
Speaker 3Yes , um , with dreams , dreams , using dreams to , to help us get through life , is They've been around probably since the beginning of humanity . You know , we know like in the old ancient be , you know , ancient days before Christ , the Greeks had these temples where people could go to be healed and they stayed overnight to have a dream , and we have records of the dreams that they left behind . So In some cases , so it's not a new idea , you know it's not , it's not new , but it's a . It's something we can do . We know we can do . The question is how do you do it ? How , what do you do with your dreams ?
Speaker 3I would say , with the dream that you just described , like , let's say , you came to me with your dream and that's , you told me that you're reading of the dream , what you just said about the dream , I think what I would do is say that's really , really helpful . Then that dream was able to give you Some guidance at a moment when you felt you needed it , and that makes a lot of sense . However , I would say that the poetry of a dream , the metaphors there , are vast and profound , and whenever you come up with a reading of it , you have to be open to another one too . Okay , you have to be able to look at many other ways of looking at the dream .
Speaker 3And the advantage of in the case of therapy , to have a good therapist in those dreams , knows how to deal with dreams . They can give you a point of view that you wouldn't have . I think most of the people who have dreams have dreams . I think most people I know say that they find it hard to interpret their own dreams , that it's better to have somebody else have a different point of view and see things that they can't see . So there's that side of it .
Speaker 3But I think it's a very good idea to have your dream and write down your feeling in the dream and how you woke up from the dream , what your attitude was and feeling when you woke up from it , about it and any ideas you have about it . I always tell my clients that what I do is I write my dream down and then I put a line under it and everything under the line are my later reflections on the dream , maybe what I think it means or my associations with it or how I felt with it , something like that , and I suggest that they might do something similar . Most of them don't pay any attention to that , but they have their own way . You know everyone has their own way of dealing with it . So like there's one client I have I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I say it that whenever he presents a dream he gives it a title .
Speaker 2And .
Speaker 3I find that that titling the dream is really helpful to us because it brings out what he thinks is the essence of the dream without going on and on explaining it . It's very nice , I love it . He's the only client I've ever had who does that . It's a title on the dream , but it's a nice way and it was not my idea at all , he just did that . So there are many ways of working with dreams . I wouldn't want to be dogmatic about it , but I do think that you can get better at it over time , both with your own dreams and help . It really helps to work with other people's dreams too , because when you're looking at their dreams like , let's say , your friends , somebody if you can have that kind of relationship where you can share a dream , that can help you , because then you don't have the added problem of having your own stuff in the way .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's right , you get a better picture of it . My grandmother has tremendous dreams , the most craziest dreams ever , and she was telling my family about it . One time we were sitting at a family lunch and my dad said well , what'd you dream last night ? And she said the craziest thing . I was sitting there on the couch with a cardboard box full of cell phones and I was eating them . And my dad said I can tell you what that meant . She said yeah , what ? And he goes you're starving for communication .
Speaker 3It's not good . It's not good .
Speaker 2Not a bad interpretation .
Speaker 3Oh no , that's good , I like it .
Speaker 2I want to be respectful of your time . I know we've been at this for an hour . I just have one more question .
Speaker 3Oh , please , that's fine , that's fine , yeah .
Speaker 2Something that really , really intrigues me but , full disclosure , I don't know much about , although I probably talk to my friends as if I do is Greek mythology , and what that's all about . From my understanding of Greek mythology , is that the gods represent aspects of human emotion , and the fact that their gods are immortal is because the emotions that we experience just pervade time and story , and we can see those parts of ourselves reflected in the stories of Greek mythology . Am I in the right ballpark here ?
Speaker 3Not for me .
Speaker 2Okay , please , I'd love to hear how you look at this .
Speaker 3No , I don't . There is that going on in psychology these days . The things that dream give us show us parts of ourselves . I think that's too much of a self , you know .
Speaker 2You're saying Greek mythology does ? You said dream does right ?
Speaker 3No , no dream the way we talk that way . Psychology does that .
Understanding Greek Mythology as a Religion
Speaker 3No , I don't think that's probably the best way , because actually the Greek gods and goddesses were religion , they were part of a religion , so we call it mythology . It'd be the same as talking about Christian mythology . It's probably true , that's what it is similar to the Greeks , but Christians would not be happy hearing their religion call them mythology , probably because we have bad associations . I don't have those negative associations . I think mythology , Mythology , is a collection of stories that tell about the great powers in life , the great themes in human life , not just individuals , but in human life in general . So they're very big . A lot of big things happen in their gods and the people believed in these gods . They had temples to them and they had priests and priestesses to them . We have a hard time seeing that because we can't imagine a polytheistic religion , probably with many gods and goddesses , because we think God is God .
Speaker 3But I feel , that it's the same , that their religion was the same as a contemporary Jewish , Islamic or Christian religion .
Speaker 2So the Greeks believed in these gods , the same way that lots of people believe in Jesus . Yes , and so there was the God of war , the God of sex , the God of love .
Speaker 3Yes .
Speaker 2And so their relationship with them was in honor , respect thing , like you should pray to the God of war if you want to win the war .
Speaker 3Yes , exactly so . That's what I'm saying . If you told the Greek the gods were a part of yourself , they think this was nuts . You know , you look at the people for a part of yourself . You don't think so . We pray to gods who are outside of us . Now you don't have to say you know , they're literal , like they're , you're going to see them on the mountain , but they have a presence in this world . It's what you experience , maybe in anger and aggression and warfare . You experience the God , mars or Aries in the Greeks . You experience that God . It's not experiencing like a person with a body . It's experiencing the reality of aggression and war . We can't say exactly what that is . We use a lot of words for it , but then we use the image of a God to show that it's not human , that it's something that is in life and that we have to deal with , and that we can pray to it in a way even , or we can honor it as outside ourselves . We can make a temple to it .
Speaker 3That's not such an odd thing to do .
Speaker 2So how would you make a temple to the God of love or the God of anger , and how ? What would that do for the person crafting the temple ?
Speaker 3Well , you know they didn't . What they would do mainly was create the temple as a way of honoring . So you'd have a temple that would have a , usually have a space where you could go like a Temenos . They would call it a sacred space . A sacred space . You know this is a sacred space , and they'd have columns around so that you know when you go through these columns you're in a sacred space and you'd feel it .
Speaker 2You understand that there's something here about love that is not just human , it's like part of life , it's a reality in itself to some extent that we it's part , and that's the , that's the godly nature of the gods in Greek mythology is it's , it's a real , tangible aspect of life that , whether you're here or not , it exists . And so , even though it's , even though we kind of like maybe in tennis , pick up on the frequency of love or anger as humans , it exists even as a part of nature without you , and so we honor that God , that deity , that our mind or personification or what have you of that influence that does exist .
Speaker 3Couldn't you say in the example you gave before , from your own experience , that life has brought this love into you , into you that is different from anything you've experienced before , and couldn't you say I really , I really am grateful to life for doing that . But instead of saying life , you might say well , life has this aspect and there's a .
Speaker 3There's a a a beneficence in life that will give love to people like this , Like you can't just go out and find it . It's like there's , it's a gift in some way . So wouldn't be a big step to say , I wonder what that ? It's , this aspect of life , you know I'm it's , I'm going to , I'm going to go and carve a sculpture that will express this , what this is , because I don't know how to talk about it . I'll make a sculpture of it and kind of personify it . We often personify things that come to us like that . So once you've done that , you've got a mythology and you've got a goddess . Maybe you know . Yeah , so so it's not . It's not crazy to think that people would would be able to , over centuries , be able to develop this very elaborate religion that honors these powers and life .
Exploring Greek Mythology and Archetypal Psychology
Speaker 3And that's not too different from a God who ? Who also a one God , monotheism , where the God , God , gives us a life . You might say God has given me this , my companion , it's God given . So what's different ?
Speaker 2Wasn't there then moving from the maybe the Greeks being polytheistic in that sense the God of war , the God of sex , the God of love , family , etc . Which we read about in Greek mythology ? Was there a ? What happened ? Why was there a movement to now , like the monotheistic religion of Christianity , where there's one God of all gods , king of all kings , it's ? It's one God , not God of of all the different elements of life , but the God of all life , which is that , like what happened there ?
Speaker 3Who knows ? So I don't think anyone knows what happened . There is within human beings . There is a desire for freedom , let's say a lot of freedom to live your life , and there's also a desire , there's also a feeling that you have to follow the rules . That's how to live your a good life to follow the rules . And monotheism tends to be a rule kind of religion . I mean . Understand there's a lot of love and many other things , but it tends to focus on more on the , on a rule and morals . Yeah , and the Greeks ? You know , the early Christian theologians kept saying that the Greeks were immoral . That's what they complained about them . Their polytheism , their gods were immoral because they were sexual .
Speaker 2So there was the girl the early who , who complained that who was immoral and sexual .
Speaker 3The early Christian theologians , the people they call the church fathers . They I mean Clement of Alexandria was one of them . When you read his I've read his stuff when you read what he writes , he's foaming at the mouth . He's so upset about the Greek morality mainly sexual . So a lot has to do with sex . You know it has a lot to do with that . So how do you , how do you deal with your sexual feelings and eros in life ? How do you deal with it ? The Greeks dealt with it by having all the gods have a sex life of some kind in their own way , and the monotheistic religions tend to deal with it by not having any sexuality and divinity at all . And I think that you know that can have some negative impacts on the monotheistic . Yeah .
Speaker 3So I'm not saying there's one or the other thing . There's a , there's beauty in both approaches . But you can see there are two different ways of being in this world , and that's I think we see it .
Speaker 3This is speaking very simplistically , but you can see that it's , that it can lead to two very different approaches to our facing reality and facing the , the , the , the things that we have to deal with in our lives , like sex and like warfare and anger and conflict , so many of the other things that are manifested in the gods and goddesses . Yeah , that's a different . Do you see what I mean by by ? I don't want , I can't say , these are parts of ourselves .
Speaker 2Yes , I see what you mean , that they exist outside of you . They're a part of the human , they're a part of life itself , which you're perceiving . And and yeah , it's not that you made it , you didn't make the God of anger , you just , you just personified it .
Speaker 3Yeah right . You have your own version of it . It's a very good question . Nobody's ever asked me that one before and I'm very happy to talk about it because it's essential it's .
Speaker 2Sorry .
Speaker 2No no , so , because the way I kind of relate to your work , specifically the care of the soul , is , you can gain awareness of the expressions of the soul very subtly , almost in its reflection back to you in your life , like there's a scripture verse in the Bible that says as water reflects a man's face , so his , his life , reflects his heart . And so you might think , you think all day . You think , think , think . But the deeper , larger dynamics and themes in your life are reflected back to you . That's how you become aware of those things . Mythology , greek mythology , is that ? Is that like a really good mirror ? Is that why it's so helpful ?
Speaker 3I think you're right . It is a mirror of sorts . It's kind of a backwards mirror , because you're having your experiences and then you can see them reflected in mythology . That's certainly true . That's maybe that's the advantage of it . It gives you when I'm saying it gives you a poetic . By poetic I don't mean writing poetry , I mean a majestic , artistic way of reflecting on your experiences , like something to compare your experience to . But eventually , what you do and this is true of those of us who work with mythology we begin talking almost like the Greeks because we're so aware of how present that is . So I may say that one of my clients is being visited by Venus . The Roman goddess , compared to , you know , similar to the Greek Aphrodite , is being visited by Venus Now , at this point in his life . Relationship , and not relationship so much , but sexuality is really important and I'm going to Is that the goddess , is that Venus ?
Speaker 3What's that ?
Speaker 2Is Venus , the God of sexuality , sensuality .
Speaker 3In Rome . Yeah , I'm sorry , we mix these two up . Sometimes we call it Mars instead of Aries and Venus instead of Aphrodite , but they're almost identical Not quite , but almost identical . And some of the Roma words are a little easier . So I would say then that you see what I'm saying by referring to , I'd say , oh , this person now is being visited by Venus .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 3I mean that literally and I'm not in that religion where I'm going to go to the temple and make a sacrifice to Venus , but I am going to say that there is a potency , a power , possibility in life that this person now is in touch with and being affected by , and so , by being able to refer to mythology , I'm able to keep that larger potency and power of life in mind and relate it to the person's experience instead of making it all subjective in their own , all about their own life and their own emotions and their own history .
Speaker 2It gives them a connection .
Speaker 3Yeah , it gives you a bigger connection and that is very fruitful . We call this archetype psychology , that what I'm doing , meaning that these images , these gods and goddesses , like archetypal images . They're bigger than individual . Can we talk about ?
Speaker 2that . Could we talk about the in the same way we're talking about Greek mythology , like Carl Jung , with archetypes , him , maybe in Freud . Did they both create a list of archetypes that were like we just talked about a place to see your psyche reflected back to you , that kind of thing ?
Speaker 3It's a little more subtle than that , but yeah , the thing is , jung did say he taught that there are certain things that go on in a human life that are there because you're a human being . Like you fall in love with somebody , you're not the first person to do it . They don't broadcast it on the radio saying that , oh , this person fell in love today . Everybody does . Yeah .
Speaker 3So it's there as part of human life and it's not just personal , it's not just individual , and you can study both the personal and the larger archetypal aspects of falling in love if you'd like look at it that way . That's what Jung did and he did not . He did not come up with a list of archetypes , because anything can be archetypal , you know you can . It's not just the gods and goddesses . You can find like an astrology could be a way of being archetypal , thinking archetypally about your experiences .
Speaker 2Like when people talk about zodiac signs and stuff like that , that's what you're saying .
Speaker 3Yeah , like your sign , your sun sign . That could be that's like an archetypal image for who you are and it can be very useful . You can say well , you know , it helps me to know that my sign is Libra . That's me . My sign , sun sign , is Libra , so it helps me understand my waffling over every decision I have to make . You know it helps me and it helps me know that I'm born to appreciate beauty . That's in art , it's helpful . So it's not fact but it's a way of imagining . That's such a way as good .
Speaker 2It's such a count , it's such an opposite approach from from the way that my brain thinks . I think it's probably similar to a way a lot of people think , think , especially being raised in Western civilization , where we're we're in the search for truth and certainty and for sure , and the imagination has been shoot out faster than a stray cat , you know , and in a house . But it's , it's really cool , man , because what I sense as we talk about this is that , you know , we're just trying different little snacks at the front door to try to bring the soul in , to tempt it to come in , and we , you know , we will reach for imagination , we'll do whatever , whatever we need to put out there , to bring the soul forth Constantly , and you can use anything you know I can .
Speaker 3I can with people . Sometimes I read tea leaves , you know . Or even I read someone's cappuccino once you know the froth on it , you can read it . As as for its images and the person , I remember I was . I was in Scotland and I came out from giving a lecture and I was at a cafe and this person saw me and they had heard the lecture , and she said would you please read my , my cappuccino ? Someone had asked me that before , but I thought why not ? So I read , I did a little short reading of her cappuccino and , like she said , this best thing happened in my life . She said now I see things I hadn't seen before , you know , and I think that's , I think that's really good , that's the way we could read our world and read our lives , constantly using our imagination and trusting our imagination . Yeah .
Speaker 3Archetypal psychology means that's the psychology that I follow . It's not a psychology of archetypes having a list of gods and goddesses or something . It's archetypal . It means this is how we work . We use anything as an image and try to expand our sense of what's happening in life .
Speaker 2What do you mean when you , when you contrast archetype and archetypal ?
Speaker 3Some people look at a list of archetypes . They think the archetypes are the Greek gods , and what you do is you try to match every human experience to a Greek god or goddess , and they usually take the goddess symbolically . Many of the . This God stands for love and this one stands for anger . It's not that these , these gods have stories that are very complex . So when you , if you study the mythology , you have a very rich narrative in mind when you talk about the goddess Aphrodite . So it's not a simple matching of gods and their symbols . It's something much more rich and vast than that .
Speaker 3So we do that with a great deal of study and and and , and each person , each of us , tries to explore images archetypally , try to go into their depth and then connect them to human life . So it's , I think , a very rich . But it's not for us to hear someone you know say well , venus is the goddess of sex and she must have something to say about my sex . So I have to study this archetype . That's much too simple . It's much faster than that and much more subtle .
Speaker 2The imagination portion of of this is interesting , because what comes up in my mind is that's how you , that's how you engage with children , is through imagination . Something so , so interesting that we disregard . Imagination is no longer useful in engaging with our souls as we age .
Speaker 3Well , the whole world of art is about that . You know that's pretty serious , pretty adult . The art world . And therefore the arts are very important . In archetypal psychology or the soul psychology that I do . I teach a course , by the way , every week called soul psychology , where I go over all this material . You know we'd have a different theme every week , so it's quite elaborate . You know it takes us a year to get through the basic themes .
Speaker 2Where can people find that , myself included .
Speaker 3Find it on my website , thomasmoresoulcom . Thomas More Soul .
Speaker 2Is that like a live class that you do ?
Speaker 3Yeah , it's a live class , Plus I give short readings and during the week we write emails to each other all week and I participate in that . So it's kind of a community working on these archetypal themes .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's really wonderful . I have to say honestly , this conversation has brought more to mind than I'm able to digest in the moment and speak to . I can feel my thoughts starting to get kind of jerk-clunked up .
Speaker 3So we're getting to a point . I see that .
Speaker 2Yeah , so for that I have to bow to you and say thank you so much for this conversation together .
Speaker 3Yes well , thank you . I have to tell you that I don't have a chance to talk so unstructured . You know about things , these things that are important to me , and I love talking about them . So things came up here in our conversation and never come up in others . So , thank you .
Speaker 2That's wonderful . Sincerely , thank you so much for your time . I hope to reconnect with you in the future when I've had more time to contemplate these things Awesome .
Speaker 3Probably when you're ready .
Speaker 2Thanks so much for watching this video . If you enjoyed it , make sure you click the thumbs up , drop a comment and subscribe to the channel .