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Exploring Personality Types and Self-Awareness | Caitlin Hawekotte
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Dive into the fascinating world of personality types as we sit down with Caitlin Hawekotte, a certified Myers-Briggs type indicator practitioner. We'll unravel the intricacies of the Myers-Briggs assessment, exploring the four-letter type code and its dynamic components that influence how we interact and perceive the world. You'll uncover the power of self-awareness and acceptance, as we emphasize the significance of embracing our unique traits and preferences, rather than bending to societal norms.
We'll also turn the spotlight on the vital connection between personality types, cultural values, and traditional gender roles. Caitlin and I share our personal breakthroughs and experiences, exploring how our personality types can shape our relationships and understanding of the world. Ever wondered about the impact of societal expectations on your personality type? This is the place to find those answers.
But, we won't stop there. We'll also delve into the balance between personal growth and acceptance, discussing our experiences with striving for success and validation. Learn to find contentment in the present and understand the role projection plays in our interactions.
Join us on this enlightening journey as we discuss the power of self-awareness, acceptance, and the profound influence of our personality types on our lives. Get ready to take a step closer to understanding yourself and others better.
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Understanding Myers-Briggs Personality Types
Speaker 1Yo , yo , yo yo . What's up ? Wonderful people of the world , Thank you for tuning in to let's Keep Talking . I hope you know I love you . I hope you know , I hope you're having a great day and I hope you know that I wish you the absolute best and whatever you're involved in in life .
Speaker 1If you're tuned into this episode , that means you want to know about personality types and more particularly the Myers-Briggs personality type , the Myers-Briggs personality assessment of sorts . Well , lucky for you , I have my friend , caitlin Hawket , here to talk all about that . That's what she does , who she is . She's a Myers-Briggs type indicator practitioner , certified practitioner . I think this is a really helpful conversation because it allows us to feel validated in the ways that we relate to the world and to others and also have space for other people who relate to the world and to themselves and to us in a way that might be different than us . So , without further ado , let's hop into today's episode with Caitlin Hawket . Let's just start off with a general understanding for the audience of what a Myers-Briggs assessment is and how it's useful .
Speaker 2Yeah , so it's a personality assessment , and the theory is that there are ways in which we engage with the world that are either focused more inwardly or outwardly , and these have to do with how we take in information and how we process that information .
Speaker 2So anyone who's ever taken an assessment whether it was the official Myers-Briggs type indicator or whether it was one of the many , many free ones available online they've probably gotten what is called a four letter type code . So I'll break down what the four letter type code is made up of . So it's basically four pairings of eight different things . So the first one is introversion and extroversion . So it's indicated by an I or an E in your four letter type code that you get as a result . So that one is kind of like what you pay attention to in the world where you focus your energy . So do you tend to focus it more on the world around you and looking outward and pulling things in from out there , or do you pull in from within yourself ? Do you like to spend time reflecting and turning inward more and we all like to do both of these things , oh , go ahead .
Speaker 1Sorry to ask you Is that kind of how you regulate your mood to ? Is by paying attention externally or internally ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I would say it's about regulating your energy , which , yes , would obviously probably be directly reflected in your mood . So if you're not feeling super energized , your mood is probably not going to be great , and if you're feeling more energized , you're going to be in a better mood , right ? So people with the extroversion preference tend to get really energized by interacting with other people , and people with the introversion preference tend to get a little more drained by it . So it's sort of like , in a simplistic way the other letters add more nuance to that , but in a simplistic way it's like oh , if you have a preference for extroversion , your tank might start out empty at the beginning of the day and then as you interact with people , it gets fuller . And if you have the introversion preference , your tank might start out full and kind of get drained throughout the day in all your interactions with people , even if you're enjoying them . It can still pull from your energy , right ?
Speaker 1So yeah , right off the bat , sorry to sorry to pump the brakes real quick , but I just the that first . Like separation of people , like some people get really energized by being around others and some people don't . Just drawing that clear distinction with something like this can help us feel more validated in the way that we respond to other people and to big groups and to social events and also make sure we respect other people whenever they go . Like I need some alone time and I said I've gone . What the fuck you weirdo ? We can go like okay , that makes sense . You may be someone who gets energy from a little bit more of that solo time .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 2I always say because whenever I would do a workshop about these things or go over somebody's assessment results with them , I always say you know , it's a lot to take in , and for me it's a win if somebody even just walks away with an aha moment about any one of the aspects of this assessment .
Speaker 2And so I think if you only walked away with one , I think a really powerful one is . What energizes me may not be the same as what energizes someone else and , like you said , having mutual respect there , because especially in the workplace where I do a lot of these workshops , somebody with a preference for extroversion might ask a colleague who has a preference for introversion oh , do you want to go to lunch with all of us today ? And if they say no , they might take it as , oh , they don't like me , they don't want to hang out with us , but maybe the colleague just has had so many meetings that day and they just really need to kind of refuel over their lunch break and have some time to themselves , and so it's nothing personal necessarily , you know . So having that , awareness .
Speaker 1There's a spiritual practice of don't take things personally , or emotional practice you might want to call it that or mental health practice . Don't take things personally . People say things , people do things , and nine out of 10 times it's not about you . It's just the way they've learned to organize their life in a way that's best for them , and you know that's a great example Like do you want to hang out ? And they're like no , and you're like , well , fuck you . You know . Like well , fine , I'm like , well , then you can die , you know . But in reality the person might be like , hey , I've worked hard all day , like you have , and after a long day I like to sink into a bubble bath by myself , away from people . And you're the opposite , and that's okay .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , and sometimes they can feel bad because it doesn't mean they know the person with the preference for intervention . It doesn't mean that they don't really value those relationships and they don't want to make anyone feel bad , but they know that for them to be operating at their best level for the rest of the afternoon , they're going to need that , that downtime .
Speaker 1Are those people ? Just are those people . How do you socialize well with an introvert ?
Speaker 2No , like introverts really many , many , many of them really enjoy socializing .
Speaker 2It tends to be though that they might be , they might feel most energized by their closest relationships . So maybe they you might get an introvert alone and you have a good relationship with them and they might talk a ton for hours . It doesn't necessarily mean they're not talkative or sociable , it just means that it kind of has a different effect on them and they really have to closely guard the way that they expend the energy that they have to give . And so when they are , it's not as if they're not enjoying those socializing moments , it's just that they're going to have maybe a different , a different way of processing them at the time . That's going to leave them feeling different after . So it might totally be worth it to them , like , hey , I know I'm going to go out tonight and it's going to totally drain me , but I'm going to have fun while I'm doing it .
Speaker 2And so definitely they have that there .
Speaker 1Really awesome .
Understanding Myers-Briggs Personality Types
Speaker 1The first letter I or E introvert expert . Next letter we got three more right .
Speaker 2Yeah , there are three more pairs . So the next one is intuition and sensing . So the letters that are going to be S for sensing and for intuition only because the I was already taken by introversion in the first pairing , so that one can get a little confusing , but that's the only one that's like that .
Speaker 2So sensing and intuition . So this is the kind of information you tend to pay attention to . So this is are you taking in information ? If you have a sensing preference ? You're focusing on your five senses and you're noticing detail and you're noticing , you know things that are measurable , quantifiable , and you also tend to have a really good sense of what is like , what is reality .
Speaker 1Objectivity .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , it's just very yeah , what , what is ? Intuition is a more like a big picture way of looking at things , kind of theoretical . They tend to focus more on what could be . So they might look at a situation and what could be may feel very real to them because it feels like , yeah , we're on the way , it's getting there , this is the possibility for this thing or for this person . So it can be . It can be challenging Again when you have people with opposite preferences . They're paying attention to different things , but when you think about it , it's really helpful to have people who are focusing on the smaller picture details and people focusing on the bigger picture what could be . Where could this go ? Because when they're paired together , they make things happen .
Speaker 1Is that like , is that the with you , with your perspective on this and your experience , and it would you ? Would you label those people kind of like managers and entrepreneurs or creatives and more kind of technicians in that way ?
Speaker 2Yeah , you know , I hadn't really thought about it in that way , and it's hard to say for sure , because we're talking about each set as if they exist in a vacuum , you know , but then you pair them for things .
Speaker 2So if it existed in a vacuum , it might be like , yeah , sensing would be really preferable for a manager and then intuition might be really preferable for an entrepreneur . But the thing that I love about Myers-Briggs is that when you mix them with other preferences in that four-letter type code , it might mean like , oh , maybe I look like I'm engineered or designed to be a manager , say , but actually the way that I flex all of my things and the you know , combining who I naturally am and what my tendencies are with the things I've learned and what I'm passionate about , and they're all these other things right , they go into who we are and what we like to do . Maybe I can be a very successful entrepreneur , even if it looks like .
Speaker 2I'm designed to be in a management role .
Speaker 1So when I think about , when I think about intuition , it normally strikes me as like , like . What is the word premonition ? Is that kind of like the same thing ? I have a feeling , I have this . I feel as if this is true , or I feel as if this is possible , and I'm not so much gauging it based off of of like measurable , quantifiable data , but it's more so a hunch . My wisdom , my knowledge , more so , is coming out of me instead of going into me .
Speaker 2Yes , so this is I . Sometimes I use an example of , like you know , those . There are some TV shows out there where it's like the cop is paired with the psychic , you know , and they , they work on a case together or say and so the cop would maybe have that sensing preference of a plus B plus C equals D , right Cause they're .
Speaker 2they're taking the evidence , they're putting all the pieces together and then they're putting it all together and seeing the big picture , whereas the psychic might just go . I just know , I'm putting all these , my intuition , my gut feeling , all these things , I'm putting them together , what I've gathered patterns I'm sensing , and this is the person who did it but then they still have to work backwards and prove . So they might come to the same conclusion , but they come at it from different angles .
Speaker 2And then they they need each other again to to verify things , bounce things off of each other and to really make a strong case . So yeah , so that there's definitely an element of that and some people use their intuition . This is making it more . This is like stepping into , like step two stuff with Myers-Briggs . That gets a little more complicated . But some people have intuition that's outwardly focused or inwardly focused . So , like you said , some people might have an internal thing like oh yeah , I definitely I'm pulling from within myself this intuition , this premonition , this thing that I feel certain about . And then other people are more using their intuition in the way they look at the world outside of them and they might spot patterns and things and then they come to conclusions that are based on their observations or the things that they've pulled in .
Speaker 2So it's kind of it can get tricky , Like I said , when we start combining with the other letters . It can look very different because in the end we end up with 16 different combinations of these four preferences I'm talking about , or four sets of preferences .
Speaker 1Yeah , what's the next one ?
Speaker 2All right . So the next one is how you make decisions about that information that you took in , how you process it . And so this is T for thinking and F for feeling . So people with the thinking preference thing , oh , go ahead .
Speaker 1Just so I'm along with you . So the first category I and E is kind of like energy how you monitor and what fills your cup and how you respond to , like what happens with your energy levels right Inside , or introspective or not introspective , extrovert , introvert . The next one is a little bit more of how you . How would you categorize the second one ?
Speaker 2It's a little bit more of how you want Kind of information that you tend to pay attention to more .
Speaker 1Cool , cool , gotcha what's arriving in your inbox right and where it's coming from . And then the third one is how you make decisions about that .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah so you've pulled in this information .
Speaker 2You've either pulled in sort of like data , facts , figures you know this is what is kind of stuff or maybe you've pulled in more patterns and observations and theories and things like that and then you make decisions about that . So with the thinking preference , these are people who want to be as objective as possible . They want to focus on cause effect pro con . They want to really lay things out . They like they tend to be good with processes and things like that . People with the feeling preference , instead of stepping outside of a situation , they kind of want to step into it and use their empathy , try to understand the people element especially . So people with the thinking preference also care about people . It doesn't mean that they're cold and unfeeling at all , it just means that they bring this logical approach to things . And then the feeling preference it's not that they don't see the facts and figures or the data , it's that the thing that has the most pull for them is how are things going to affect people ?
Speaker 1You know , that is like when I think about most people's dads , I think about thinking , you know , let's be cold and calculated with this approach and let's not get too feely with it . I don't . You know , there's like a , I think , a pressure , especially for men a lot of times , to be very cold emotionally and not lean on feeling . And I think what's really cool which is coming up as we're talking about this is I'm seeing my own like how I'm responding to the information you're telling me , is I'm seeing my own biases towards one side of the other , based off of the messages I've internalized over the just my years as a human . And it's funny how like . It's funny , how like even just the first reaction I might have is that one of these is better than the other . You should be one versus the other . This is a nice little . This is a nice little exercise of sorts just to get all your bullshit out and say look , there's different ways to do this , homeboy . So let's open our mind a little bit and realize the value in all of them .
Speaker 2Oh , that makes me so happy . That's why I love this I because I think I think I came at it from an angle of like I'm the youngest of four children , I we think now one of my sisters might be an extrovert , but growing up it was always my understanding that I was the only extrovert or only person in my family out of the six of us , and there are some combinations that they have that I felt like I should be more like them . And so then when my dad brought home this book explaining all this stuff it , it was like oh , I'm not , it's not anyone better or worse is different . It's , it's not .
Speaker 1What was the book for someone who might want to read it ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it was called Please Understand Me Too by David Kearcy .
Speaker 1Oh , that's so sweet .
Speaker 2It's so great and he uses sort of like the framework but he separates things out by temperament into four categories , so it's like four types per four categories for the 16 types . It's very interesting and it was my first exposure to this and I it was so , so , so validating and I was reading through my type and I was highlighting everything .
Speaker 2I think it was about 13 . At the time , I was highlighting everything and I was like , oh , it's okay to be this way , I'm not wrong , it's just one of . And so I started to see things as more like oh , it's not like a long rectangular table where the people who have the right ideas and the right way of going about things in life are at the top , at the , you know , the head of the table , and the rest of us are just trying to be like them . It's more like nights at a round table where everybody has a valid perspective that together creates the whole picture . And so that was really beautiful .
Speaker 2Thank you . That was just like life changing for me , so I love . That's why I love sharing these things .
Explaining Personality Types and Cultural Values
Speaker 1So let's grab the last letter .
Speaker 2Yes , so um oh , before I do that , I wanted to comment on what you said about the way that we're raised right .
Speaker 2So if we're raised in society to be like more , you know men should have the thinking preference and women should have the feeling preference . Well then , if you're a person who doesn't fit what you were being raised or socialized to be like , that can be confusing . So a lot of times when people take the assessment , they might go I don't know which I am , and then we have this discovery process of well , what were the messages sent in your home and your school , your community , and so it can be very validating for people who don't fit what they were expected to fit .
Speaker 1And what's funny too is that , like that , the phrase I don't know , I don't know what I am , I don't know how I I don't know how I manage my energy . I don't know how I receive information . I don't know how I make decisions I would my . My like gut reaction to that is you probably do it's just if it . If it's not what's celebrated , you probably hit it from your own . You know your own awareness .
Speaker 2Exactly , exactly . I'm trying to fit another mold , exactly , um , all right , so the last I want to talk all about that .
Speaker 1Yeah , I want to talk all about that . Let's just get these four letters down on paper . No , yeah this is great . The latest foundation .
Speaker 2So so the um . The last letters are P for perceiving , j for judging . This is how you orient yourself to the world around you . So , um , with the perceiving preference . This is for people who kind of tend to be like go with the flow , they take things as they come , they can turn on a dime and it doesn't necessarily ruffle them , right Um ?
Speaker 1but that's someone who's perceiving .
Speaker 2Perceiving . Yes , yeah , you're just sort of taking it in and taking the information , um , I liken it to . So let me tell you judging , and then I'll give the example . So , um , judging I always want to say this does not mean you're judgmental , because it can . You can get a bad rep for that . Um , it is just about being able to make judgments fairly quickly . Um , so they might um make decisions . They tend to be , they want to organize the world around them , so they make decisions about the information as it comes in , whereas the perceiving preference might just take it all in and absorb it , um , without necessarily coming to conclusions or or making a judgment call or decision about that information .
Speaker 1Someone who's judgmental might want to make decisions so they can label it and say , okay , that goes with this , that goes over here . That way I can organize the information coming in and then repair it to make decisions .
Speaker 2Exactly so . The simple example I use is you know , if you go into a , a clothing store , and you see um and this doesn't necessarily always apply , because I might I might not do what I would be expected to do based on this example , but just to to illustrate Um . So you walk into a store and they're on the display table with shirts . There are some that are kind of unfolded and laying out right . Somebody with a perceiving preference might just look at that and go , oh , somebody didn't fold their shirt back , they're just taking in the information . They're not necessarily doing anything with it yet . And somebody with a judging preference might go , oh , I want to tidy that , uh , cause it's it's .
Speaker 2I'm going to make a decision that I want to tidy that and get it back in order .
Speaker 1Uh , so it's yeah , so that's .
Speaker 2that's kind of like how to tend to be with approaching situations .
Speaker 1Or that person might need to tidy up those shirts before they could decide which shirt they liked .
Speaker 2Yes , Exactly so so , yeah , a perceiving person might go in and want to tidy it , because they want to take in all the information about what's all there before they make a decision . Um , so they , they tend to really like to information gather . Another example is you know if , um , if you have a deadline for you know you're in high school , you have a paper due , um , and you have the deadline , somebody with a judging preference would probably go okay , I need to steadily work toward that goal . Um , each week I'm going to get this much done on the paper and then by the time it comes here , you know I'll have it finished before the deadline , even maybe .
Speaker 2And then the person with the perceiving preference might be gathering information , thinking about well , what exactly do I want my stance to be on the paper , and where am I going to get that information ? They might just read a lot about that topic . Maybe they haven't picked a certain topic to focus on yet . Maybe they explore a few and then , when it gets down to crunch time , then they finally make the decision on the topic and kind of race to the end to make it by the deadline .
Speaker 1Um so different approaches when I organize this well in my paper and in my mind . There's energy right , there's the way that I , I , I gauge my energy , what fills me up , what drains me . Then there's information . It's how I'm , how I receive information about what's going on in the world . Does that come from my senses ? Does that come from inside my intuition ? Where am I getting my info ? What do I ? How do I make decisions about that information ? Either I'm thinking about it and I'm trying to , I'm , I'm very logical and maybe void of emotion and and maybe even warmth , and but someone else might be making decisions based on their feelings , where they have , where they're leaning towards . Maybe it's something that's hard to explain . So , energy information decision the last one I have a hard time putting a word on . I know you said orienting yourself towards the word , towards the word , but how , how might else would I make sense of that last one ?
Speaker 2Let's see how you , how you want your environment , how you let , how , how would I say this ? It's like how you organize the world around you how you want it to be organized so that you can receive information and make decisions . Kind of yeah .
Speaker 1Nice , yeah , so all right . So now that we have it all out .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1Hopefully , if you're listening , along with this , this has made sense . So far , I've tried to slow it down as much as I need to . Maybe we're on the same pace , maybe you're a step ahead of me , I don't know . But we've got it all down on paper I or E , s and N , t and F and P and J so each person can can begin to organize themselves based on what feels right to them in each category , right , um , before I , before I go off on a tangent , anything you want to add to this or talk about .
Speaker 2I'm just curious where you want to take it , because there are so many directions I could go yeah .
Speaker 1Here's our mission in taking this . I like the , I like the thread or the vein of validation , I like that . That seems to be something really , really important as a part of this conversation , and I think that this might be a really validating conversation for a lot of people , just like you described when you found that book called please understand me too , such a cute name , by the way . Um , my question to you , caitlin , is what set what is , like you know , enfj or ENTP , but what ? What do you call that tag ? Or a label ? What ?
Speaker 2was the name of it Type code or your four letter code . Yeah , your type .
Speaker 1Okay , what type does our American culture praise ?
Speaker 2Good question , Um , okay , so , um , we'll work through it step by step . So this will kind of be a good um example for people who are ? Looking at this turn in the over in their heads . Um , okay , so the first one . What would your instinct tell you about whether American culture values extroversion or celebrates extroversion or introversion more ?
Speaker 1Extroversion definitely .
Speaker 2Yeah , um , and then sensing or intuition , um that like very practical , grounded in reality , or the more dreamy , theoretical of intuition .
Speaker 1Sensing like grounded in reality objectiveity , objectivity , objective , sorry , I said objective , my bad , so sorry . I'm so sorry , I'm trying that's so good You're getting it .
Speaker 2You're getting that Um all right , and then um thinking or feeling having that objective , logical approach or the more um like empathetic step into it approach .
Speaker 1You don't even have to answer that one , right , I think ? Thinking , obviously thinking right .
Speaker 2So we're at E for extroversion , s for sensing , t for thinking , and then would we value more the go with the flow or the organized kind of more routine decision making .
Cultural Bias and Personality Types
Speaker 1I think we're going with J on this . I think America is sitting at a ESTJ .
Speaker 2Yes , yes . So ESTJs um tend to . It would be like if we're going to look at a , if we were to look at a drawing of a textbook ESTJ . The obvious that there are always going to be people who go in and out of the area . The things do or don't apply to them and they have these preferences . But , um , an ESTJ um would tend to . They really love engaging with people . They're energized by people . They tend to be very practical . They tend to be good with routine processes . You might often see them in management roles , um , because they're very good at interacting with people . Um , they're also able to make some of those tough decisions that might be more challenging for somebody who would say the feeling preference to have to make in business .
Speaker 1ESTJ yeah , yeah , so so this is a this is a .
Speaker 2This is a . This is a . This is a . This is a . This is a . This is a . So , so , this is um . When you think about America and and how , uh , or the United States of America and we , we focus a lot on success and getting ahead and being um , being able to make those tough calls and being able to make big decisions and be in charge of things . Um , estjs are very good at all those things , and so it's a very , um , yeah , like a portrait of what you might imagine if , if it were the US personified .
Speaker 1It's funny . There's like a little bit of tone or association that I sense when you're talking about them and it sounds like these are the important people , these are the people that are in charge . And it's funny how , like our association of like in America , where we are raised on capitalism and have made a lot of innovations through capitalism but also there's a lot of negative things about it . But it's interesting how in our culture , those people are the important people . That's how we perceive them . It's the people that have real things that they're working on . They're the people that are like we're talking about , kind of we're biased towards them . We see them as being the right ones . You know what I'm saying .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , yeah , they very much like . I've had a lot of people I know with the ESTJ preferences who have looked up to a lot . They have a lot . I have a lot to learn from them , because I don't have a lot of letters in common with them in my own type code and so I admire a lot of things about them . And then also , I think it's important is just a caveat for me to throw in here in general about all the types is that the types and the preferences they're all like neutral .
Speaker 2You know it's really what you do with it . So you could have any type . You could even have a type that sounds like they'd be the sweetest , most empathetic person in the world , but they could . If they want to use it for evil , they can use it for evil . If they want to use it for good , they can use it for good . You know , it really just depends , and so so no , I want to just use this opportunity to say that no type like I very strongly believe , no type is good or bad inherently . It's all just what somebody does with their preferences .
Speaker 2So , you can have an ESTJ who's like maybe in charge of a company and they're super philanthropic and they do great things , or you could have somebody and just like capitalism like it can go this way or that way , right , and it just kind of depends where you focus your energy and your time and attention , and so that really goes for any type too .
Speaker 1Hmm , estj , the interesting thing that I think about with this is that , like , we're talking about self-awareness here . In a large regard , we're talking about the wonderful , wonderful asset of knowing yourself well , knowing how you function and knowing how you relate to you , know the information around you , how you make decisions , understanding it from a neutral sense . But I think it's interesting about this that I wouldn't want to encourage people listening to this conversation to consider is that when you go through these , you might you might say I'm one of these or the other because you don't want to be the other one . And , like you're , you are the other one I know , like that's who you are . I feel like it just like this is . It's just interesting because to me it brings up a lot of the like .
Speaker 1Part of our social sorry part of our conditioning is is disconnecting us from the parts of us that influence us to be other than the desired , which is in this case , estj , you know , when you're on that journey of self-discovery . I just want to encourage the listeners to open up enough space to kind of shake off some of those biases and really go about this in a neutral way , to say like it's just about learning how I function , even if my culture , even if my family , even if my group of friends doesn't value the things that someone like me values . That's okay .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , and yeah , and it goes every way . Which way ? Right , because you might take in somebody with ESTJ preferences and if they grew up in a family that that more valued say feeling or introversion or things like that they might not feel like they're at an advantage necessarily living in the United States , if that's where they're living .
Speaker 2So so there are all these layers right Of the way that we're conditioned . We have the societal one , like what does it take to be successful in this society overall ? And then we've got whatever particular area you live in , the school , you went to your immediate family , all these things . So sometimes it can be difficult as people try to work out . Why do I feel like maybe a black sheep or you know , or the , the outlier or whatever here ? Why do I feel that way ? Um , and so people of all different types can feel that way to , and so then they can start break , people can start breaking down . Where are the messages that I got that were really strong for me , that made me feel like maybe how I am is wrong .
Speaker 2Or yeah , that should be different .
Speaker 1Maybe we could put some , some words and some talking time into the opposite , maybe the shadow of this ESTJ , of the American culture , and maybe talk about some of the benefits of INFP .
Speaker 2Yeah , so INFP ? Um , I actually have a , if anyone's interested , I wrote an article about ENFPs and INFPs kind of what they bring to the workplace , because a lot of times these types can feel like they don't fit in in the US Workplace and or they feel like maybe their talents are not as visible so it's harder to quantify Um .
Speaker 2So I wrote an article about , like I think it was , five things that Um that people can kind of feel good about and celebrate about themselves if they have these preferences . So , um , infps , so they tend to be quite creative , maybe philosophical , they tend to go with the flow . They might feel Then they might take some more time to process things . Um , because they they use their feeling to process and make decisions and they do that in this internal way where they Go through everything .
Speaker 2Yeah , and that's okay yeah exactly and so , yeah , like one of the things that I talked about when I do workshops and everything is how can we set up the Workplace to be good for everyone ? So if introverted preference people tend to have , maybe need a little more processing time to come to their conclusions Because they really want to turn everything over . Maybe they aren't quick to say out what they're thinking Well , before we have a meeting . It doesn't hurt those with extroversion to have an agenda beforehand , but it could really help people with introversion and they can start formulating those thoughts and processing before . So trying to create that level playing field for people , yeah , Real quick .
Speaker 1If you don't mind , just a short break and use the restroom real quick , and then we'll come right back to this . I'd love to continue the conversation at that point . I NFPs let's talk about just more of let's . Let's give some good space and some good conversation To the people INFPs out there in the world who are listening to this , saying what about me ? What about me ? We're back .
Speaker 2Thank you , I'm so glad , so grateful for the break .
Speaker 1Yeah , no , of course , no worries at all . There's no rush here . Okay , so I NFPs we live in a culture that values E STJ . I know that's true . As we go through these , I can , I can feel as we go through these , my want to like be in the group with E STJ , the people who are extroverted , people who Sense and our objective , people that think through things and don't feel through things , and people who judge things and aren't so passive and maybe open-minded might be a word in there . So I Truly believe what you're saying about neutrality . I truly , truly believe that , yeah , the , these things exist . These things have come into existence because they're useful and Because they're a useful thing .
Speaker 1Infps are kind of the , the , I think people who identify with those Individual classifications or even as the whole thing , what's up ? Or , talking straight to you , if you're an INFP , that they might feel a little bit like their skill sets aren't well , they might . They know that their skill sets aren't as valued by their workplace . Hence your , your , your article , that you wrote about it , and just the messages you internalize around you in the world . What is the superpower that INFPs have ?
Speaker 2ooh , infps have a few um One . They tend to be really good listeners . They really and very empathetic . They tend to have really great ideas . They love to brainstorm . They're quite creative . Um , they can , like I mentioned , one of the superpowers of all those with Perceiving the perceiving function is , um , they can turn on a dime in the , in the instance . So one time I asked a group of people where they were split between perceiving and judging preferences . So can anyone tell me the , the superpowers of each of those ? And one man raised his hand and he said well , my wife has a judging preference , or my Uh and and she ? You know she planned our wedding , every single aspect of it . It would not have happened if she hadn't done that right , you know , she and she had every detail down . He said , but when ? So they would come up at the last second and there was a fire to be put out . She would bring me in and I would help take care of it .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , it's , it's so . It's so important to really give a voice to both sides of that . I I personally identify a lot with the , with the p , with uh , with p baby pushing p . I identify with the p because I can turn on a dime and I feel really , really skilled at being able to think well in Chaotic environments and to come up with solutions quickly .
Speaker 1Yes , the dark side of that is that because of that , I often lack preparation For things that are important , because I know so much that I'll be able to , I can , I can be able to wing it . But one thing I've noticed in my life in the last really year or so is that , like winging it is cool , but Preparing beforehand can really help things go a lot more smoothly . And then when things don't go as prepared , then you can wing it .
Speaker 2This is exactly , and both sides can learn that from each other , right ? So then somebody with a judging preference can learn , uh , how to like hey , it's great that I prepared this plan , but also my . I think everyone will go better or more smoothly if I'm okay if there's a last minute change , and so like you said , having both having the preparation plus the adaptability , is ideal . If we get you know , if we can .
Speaker 2And and maybe those don't always exist within one person , maybe it's pairing with somebody where like in my instance , the man with his wife pairing with somebody who can help you Adapt in times where it's difficult to adapt , or help you prepare when it's difficult for you to see . How should I plot this out , um ? Yeah yeah , it's really great . So , um , oh , what was I just going to tell you about ?
Speaker 1It'll
Exploring Gender Labels and Authenticity
Speaker 1sorry . We were talking about superpowers , that we were talking about superpowers at the ianfp .
Speaker 2Yeah , listeners , they're creative .
Speaker 1They can turn on a dime . They're you know these things .
Speaker 2Mm-hmm , yeah , um , yeah , they just tend to be um , pretty , it's gonna be pretty easy going . They also , however , they have a really strong sense of who they are . Um , they have a very strong , um sense of their values , what they care about , and Authenticity is very important to them . They want to make sure that they are aligned with .
Speaker 1Whatever they feel on the inside is what , how they're behaving on the outside almost naturally because being if you have grown up and you've Realized that the world isn't necessarily or the culture around isn't necessarily rooting for your personality type , then you know you can either shame it and hide it , or you can decide to express it and and then begin to learn authenticity and how important that is in someone's life .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , and you get a . Really , I've never thought about that before , how the , the element of you become very aware of yourself when it is contrasted by , say the , the societal expectations . Um , yeah , you're very aware . So , even even on little things , like if your society is saying , um , you know , because of your uh gender identity , you should be Uh logical in thinking and don't bring any emotions into it , or because of you know you shouldn't be so , like if , uh , I've come across women who have the thinking preference and they've felt like they've been treated as if they are not warm enough or , um , nurturing enough , because they're maybe the type of person who can make those objective difficult to make decisions about things in , in business or in life , um , and so you become very aware of who you are when it's counter to what might be expected of you .
Speaker 1Yeah this might be off topic , but it does come up as a question in my mind the masculine and feminine as as inspirations for for being or ways that you express yourself . Do you , do you organize Um and I would just take this opportunity to say that I don't necessarily organize it based on someone's sex , but based off of the idea of masculine elements and feminine elements and how those express themselves and each individual . Do you do you see that these , these um labelings Ies and tf pj do have , do exist somewhere on a spectrum of masculine and feminine , or or not so much ?
Speaker 2I think some of them could . I'm thinking through them right now . Um , I think the thinking and feeling is probably where we see it the most . What's expected like , what's what would be categorized as masculine versus categorized as feminine ?
Speaker 1But even that it's like Sorry to interrupt you .
Speaker 1No , no , go ahead even that is interesting because I one of the like we could just hang out in this ballpark , because I think this is an interesting little caveat .
Speaker 1The conversation T and f thinking and feeling right , we would , you would tend to , you would tend to lean and say thinking is masculine and feeling is feminine .
Speaker 1I heard someone describe masculinity one time as Masculinity is the ability to sit presently with any emotion in its entirety . They were borrowing from the idea of more like eastern , you know , religion of Masculinity represents more the awareness or the space of which life exists , and femininity is the , is the , the actual , tangible expression , the , the continuous flow of expression of life . And so masculine is Conscious of existence , and existence as the feminine . And so their whole idea was it like the deepest masculine you could be , as like holding space , infinite space for for somebody , your partner or for a child , and they feel things . And that's the thing that I think is the , the shitty part where we go like , oh , you should be a thinker . Well , like , I've met a ton of fucking guys who really value themselves as a thinker and you can't go off feelings and watch them Fuffa fumble Moments with people who really , really care about their connection with them because they have zero capacity to experience feelings .
Speaker 2Yeah , yes , and and I feel I , yeah , I love this , I love the um , I think I think there is what we've always seen as Traditionally masculine , traditionally feminine , and then maybe what a better definition of it would be , and I love the one that you just shared , um , and I I think , yeah , the other thing that's interesting
Exploring Emotional Expression and Empathy
Speaker 2. So when I was studying to be a therapist for a couple years before I went the coaching route , um , I did two years in this program we talked about that .
Speaker 2Yeah , it was . I learned a lot . It is Greatly transformed my life , the all the courses I took in those two years because I took um . One of the last courses I took was couples counseling , which was huge and I use it in all dynamics , not any one-on-one dynamic , not just between two people who were romantically involved . I think it's all relevant um and the . The thing one thing I learned was that um , true , you know , in the past . Um , maybe not as much in modern day , but still exists . Um , women were Taught that to , to stifle emotions of anger or frustration . Um , so that a lot of times that and but they were taught like sadness and all that's okay to express . So a lot of times when a woman is angry , she will cry .
Speaker 1Yeah she'll trans transmute it to something that's acceptable .
Speaker 2Yes , and then it'll be the same for men .
Speaker 2So if they were taught no , you boys don't cry , but anger is okay , anger is still an emotion , right .
Speaker 2And so when they're sad , they come out as anger , um , and so a lot of times , you know , when people talk about Like I see the little funny memes like anytime that , uh , like there were two men in some I don't know if this is the house or senate that were Um , just this week there was a news story where they're talking about fighting each other and , you know , getting emotional . And then I saw comments of women joking , oh , but they say women are too emotional because we forget sometimes that that anger and all that is also emotion . You know , it's not just yeah , this isn't the only thing and um , and so , like , I like that idea of True masculinity and I think femininity too Would apply that to be able to sit with any , any and every emotion and be able to process it and express it in a way that um is like healthy and um you know can be how do I mean ? In an effective , productive way it could be expressed .
Speaker 1Yeah , without without these weird little tags on it that say , like you can only Express so much , or from a from a therapist perspective , or from a really effective partner listening perspective . You can only allow so much . You know . You can only allow someone to express so much because if you're like you know , I have to control to make sure people don't , you know , act out a line instead of allowing people to show up in their entirety as Feeling extremely angry . You know , like that's where we , that's where I think a lot of a lot of people who over identify with trying to appear masculine Will stifle Emotions in the room , you know because that's that's what comes with them .
Speaker 2Their emotions were stifled and that's what they learned , and then that's what they turn around and do to other people , and so it's on . On the one hand , I have , as frustrating as that A characteristic can be to people around them , I also have empathy for them that , for whatever reason whether it was family or society that they ended up Operating that way . You know it's good .
Speaker 1Yeah , before we lose it in the river INFP superpowers . We've got listeners . They're creative , they can turn on a dime . Anything else you want to add to that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I just think they can . They're very good at being present and letting things flow , and I think that that's really Really valuable when you think about a friend who just lets you be who you are and yeah , yeah , 100% takes it and doesn't try to shape you or change you . I think , I think that's really valuable .
Speaker 1There's a lot of . There's like a in my mind . There's a lot of soul with someone who with , with not just somebody , but with the expressions of self that are I and F and P , because there's . It's Like when I think about extraversion , I think about social hierarchies and kind of play in the game . When I think about Sensing , I think about objectivity . When I think about thinking and decision-making , I think about very cold rationale and Even the underside of each one of those intuitive I'm sorry , intro in introverted Intuitive and feeling there's a , like a .
Speaker 1I just personally , I just sense a lot more depth To those there's a , there's like a lot of use and the depth that they , that they bring to the moment .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I think I'm inclined to say two things are true . What ? Because I I just want to make sure not to Go the opposite direction from us and and show favor for one over the other , you know .
Speaker 2But , but it . So . This is what's challenging right to to you provide validation To maybe one set of people in all those different preferences that might be different than than the US , kind of the celebrated combination of traits right , and also not Disparage anyone who might not . Not that you're doing that , but I just want to make sure I don't as a , as a as a practitioner .
Speaker 1No , that was the . That was the last note was I was gonna say let's spend 30 minutes disparaging the group of you . I have that written down as a checkbox moment ESTJ disparage . Do you want to get started on that now , or do you ?
Speaker 2And I only say that . I only say that because I have to be careful it is . It is something that I've had to work so hard at To do what I do , because part of anyone's journey who may not have some of those traits is you might take a hard left for a while and go , yeah , mine are awesome . There's aren't so awesome , you know .
Speaker 2And and yeah and go on that journey and then it's , then it's hard to . Then you have to like swing yourself back into an equilibrium with realizing okay , now that I've had my moment and really strongly validated who I am , how I operate , can I now challenge myself To see the value in them the way I always hope they would see the value in me ?
Speaker 1That's right , that's exactly right . That is healing , that is growing . That's that's taking responsibility and deciding . The buck stops here with you .
Speaker 2Yes , exactly , yeah , yeah , cuz it can be Tempting . I've been there . It can be like very tempting to well , yeah , it's a first-year victim .
Speaker 1You know , at first year victim , a first-year victim of the treatment that you went through and you say , fuck these people and they should be beaten , you know , and then you go , and then you , and then you're like , well , here I am wielding the same weapons that they did to me and I don't know if I want to do that .
Speaker 1Yeah , I had a therapy session the other day , going through some some difficult trauma stuff from childhood , and there was this pent-up anger that I had towards this through these people , and and so my therapist walked me through , really really saying what , what did they make you feel , right ? What is , what was the pain that they caused that pissed you off so bad . And so I , you know , I Listened them off and they made me feel this way and they did this to me and they made me think that I blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . All this stuff and all this anger , you know , builds up in my chest . And and then he's you know , we're doing this with my eyes closed and he says , you know , I'm gonna give you one last little thing to think about here , and this may hurt . And I was like you know , what you know .
Speaker 1And he says you know , because it's all about how they , how , what they made you think you had To be and what they made you think you were supposed to be , and all this kind of stuff . And he said here it is . You didn't have to believe them and I just deflated and I was like god damn it , you know what ? Oh .
Speaker 2You know , you're right , I didn't .
Speaker 1I didn't have , I didn't have to believe them , I Agreed with them , I adopted the messages , I took it in and then I I beat myself for the ways that they treated me and that was so empowering and it was like a small little adjustment from Anger , from victimhood , to re-empowering that person who went through that and says , oh , you didn't have to believe that you were worse off because you didn't express the personality traits that other people have . They didn't you accept . You believed it . You accepted it . You started the torment for yourself .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , it's so hard to find the balance . So , like the line between when did somebody else's behavior and my , like the two response sets of responsibility in any situation , like where do they begin and end , and it gets complicated to write by like well , what was the relationship dynamic ? Did they have more power in that relationship ? All those different things that that can get so , so tricky . And and I think , like there's that journey that I think Maybe we all have to go through , though , like you said , like go to the place where you embrace the part of you that that Felt hurt and that you were wronged , and embrace that and let yourself have all those feelings and work through all of that and then and then , I think , only then might you be able to then be open to Listening to a question like that , right .
Speaker 2Yeah , and then and then it can be empowering after a certain point , right once you've worked through certain feelings about it .
Speaker 1Yeah , you definitely can't skip steps . It almost like you . You know it's almost like you and I , like you know , don't listen to me if this is your only therapy source , please don't . But you know that , like in my mind , you almost like , yeah , you got to be angry because you were hurt . So , you know , get angry , get angry , express that fucking pent up rage and frustration and get it up so you feel it and you feel this thing and then feel it until it feels so heavy and it feels like a liability that you're having to lug around this defense , this shield , and then at that point you can say , okay , you know , you felt it , you got your armor , you got your defense and you , you know you're protected . But you know , now you know you have a new problem , which is this this anger is so heavy to lug around . You know now what's the next step ?
Speaker 1Maybe the next step is to to try the route of Personal empowerment , where you say like , okay , you know , maybe there's a round I'm with you on that like it's hard , especially from childhood . You say like , well , at what age was it their fault and what age was it your fault ? And I don't really know the answer to that question . Honestly , I just know that the way that I feel , the way that I feel shifts to empowerment when I assume the Responsibility . And I had to go through the anger period before I even could consider assuming the fucking responsibility . Fuck them , it's not my fault , fuck them , you know . But after a while was like you know what this anger is getting heavy . I need to do something else with it . So that was my journey .
Speaker 2Yeah , and it all depends , right , it depends what the just like a caveat for anyone listening who might really to what you're saying , or what I'm saying , like that there are spectrums of things to right , like when it becomes abuse , or when it becomes like there's like certain family dynamics , and then there are things that are abusive , and then there , and so it's obviously the healing journey is gonna look very different depending on the degree to which yes someone caused you harm right .
Speaker 1Please get professional help . Please don't listen to Braxton and Caitlyn tell you how to live . So funny . Here's Braxton and an almost therapist telling you how to live .
Speaker 2I'm all for like , take what what works and leave what doesn't . You know when I'm whenever you listen to anything . It's like the buffet . So if something resonates great and if it doesn't say I forget those people , I don't agree . They're saying I'm gonna do my thing . I think that's empowering .
Speaker 1Yeah , exactly , exactly .
Speaker 1I have here written down on my piece of paper that will have horrible handwriting , so I know what it says , but I don't know exactly what it says .
Speaker 1Something along something along the lines of you have to give yourself space To accept how you are , to then find your superpower and express it like this .
The Power of Self-Awareness and Acceptance
Speaker 1If there's anything that I hope this conversation has done for listeners and viewers is Is to validate just like you said that it made you feel when you found that book validate the way you Act and and please , please , listen , and please Hear me and hear Caitlyn when I think I speak for us both when we say that these , these labels , these categorizations aren't Good or bad . There it's complete neutrality . This is just the ways that you can be and and hell yeah , man like these are the ways you can Express yourself in ways you can interpret information , and all of these are useful . And if anything , if anything , see , if you can't turn your attention inwards and and , in the name of self-awareness and self-discovery , find your own biases , find where you might be limiting yourself from understanding how you really operate , therefore not being able to tap into some of your own personal power and your natural skill because of the the ways you think you should be .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , I , I heard at one point , so I got a certification also in the Gallup Clipton strengths assessment and one of the things that one of the examples that Gallup uses is if you think about a team or a family or anything like that as a A , a pizza or a pie or whatever .
Speaker 2A lot of times we've been taught to believe that we should be well rounded in and of ourselves .
Speaker 2But , like as far as Gallup with their Clifton strengths assessment , their view is sort of now we should all just be who we are and really like lean into our strengths and what makes us who we are and that kind of makes us maybe like sharp , like a piece of pizza , and when you're put together with other pieces , that's what creates this well-roundedness and like that's why I think that's what I think is so beautiful about Everyone just kind of owning and appreciating who they are , and and it doesn't mean that we don't have to ever work on ourselves , because I loved my two biggest things in life , or personal growth and relationships .
Speaker 2So that's why I love these assessments . I think it helps with both because , for instance , like if I need to get something done at work and I were to say , oh well , with my personality , type preferences , that doesn't seem like something someone like me would do . But maybe it's like my job and I have to do the task , or well . So then I can look at my , my personality , and go okay , given that this is how I'm naturally wired , that can explain why this might feel challenging to me . But I have to find a way to be able to use who I am to accomplish this , this thing .
Speaker 2You know , assuming it's a moral , neutral , just a random task that you know it may be , fun , right , an administrative task that isn't super enjoyable for everybody or something , um , but yeah , I think I think what's really cool about this and kind of like I said a minute ago , with really needing to let yourself Sit in that space of validating who you are and working through how it might have been challenging to be told or gotten received messages , whether subtle or Overt , about how we should be different I think what I would recommend anybody who looks into their assessment . What worked really well for me this may not be the best way for everyone to go about it , but work really well for me was to really read about my type a lot , get to know it really really well , feel kind of excited about it in a way that I hadn't been before . I learned it . And then I started to learn all the others and then I had this empathy for everyone else who was different than I am where I thought .
Speaker 2This is so who I am . This one of 16 is so me . I so identify with it , and I have to remember that that's how everyone else feels about their Set of preferences , and so that helped me get to a place of I can stand strong in who I am and I can have this respect for who they are and how they are .
Speaker 1And then you can get . Then you can really get on with it . You can get on with your life from a place of being validated and respecting others , and then the play can start .
Finding Contentment and Purpose
Speaker 2Yeah yeah , and it really helps , like going back to what we said at the beginning about not taking things personally , like sometimes they might be , but , like you said , like most of the time it's . You know , so much of what we do in life is projection . And so if somebody were to interact with me and I was getting a sense of that old , oh , I should be different I can then look at it and go , oh well , that makes sense because from their lens , they value XYZ and I don't embody that .
Speaker 2Yeah so maybe they think I should , but that's OK . That's why we each have a place here , in this family or in this workplace , because they have their role and I have mine and we both bring different things , and it really helps with not taking it personally and seeing it more as just a dynamic that is going to exist between two people with opposing preferences . Maybe .
Speaker 1Yeah , 100 percent not . Do you value that more ? That's how you're made up . That's how you function . It's not how I function .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1There's a small little personal breakthrough that maybe it's not small , it seemed pretty significant for me , but a personal breakthrough that I had , I'd say , maybe nine months ago to a year , as I was divorcing , in a large way , the fantasy of the American dream and becoming somebody of significance and success , so that I could feel validated by the world around me . And the phrase , you know , what I see in my head is this like you know , like this character saying , like you can be anything . You know , in America you can be anything . And it always makes you dream of something you could become . And the way my brain kind of circle back to it after a while was you could be anything , even just yourself .
Speaker 2Yes , I love that . Yes , I go back and forth with that stuff all the time . I grew up . I wanted to be an actress , I wanted to be a philanthropist , I wanted to like , I really wanted to be somebody you know , and yeah .
Speaker 2And I go back and forth between , like I said , I love personal growth . I also love personal acceptance and other acceptance . And so it's this dance in life , I think , between challenging ourselves , working on ourselves , striving for certain things that might interest us , and also then going oh wait , but I also need to enjoy the journey of it .
Speaker 2I need to be present in whatever I'm doing , and realizing that there's so much joy to be found in just being , like you said , just being yourself , not necessarily because I was watching clips from the interview you just posted recently . I was at Dr Daniel Z . Is that you're talking ?
Speaker 1about that , dr . Daniel Z Libren , yep .
Speaker 2Yeah , that when you get that dopamine is like typically in the moment before you reach the thing that you're striving for yeah . And so I always think about Jim Carrey , who said I wish something to the extent of I wish everyone could get rich and famous so they could know it's not the answer .
Speaker 2And I try to really , I try to really learn from others who have had experiences that I haven't , and so I try , I think about that often and and and we can have that thing in our heads right , like , oh , am I settling or am I finding contentment ? Because actually contentment is super hard to find . Contentment is elusive . So I don't know , it's this , some it's . It's a back and forth dance and balance for me of of just trying to find that what I'm hoping for when I get to that place , or maybe as , maybe more as a kid , what I was hoping to get that you know , be known and be somebody , and like instead say , well , how can I have that feeling right now ? How can ?
Speaker 1I do that right now Do I need ?
Speaker 2that thing , to feel that way .
Speaker 1It's hard to it's , it takes a lot of self reflection to ask yourself if the thing you want to be is just , if the thing you want to become is just something that's celebrated . It's just so you can feel seen , you know .
Speaker 2Hey .
Speaker 1Hey buddy .
Speaker 2Yes , yes , you're gonna have to go ask daddy for those , okay , thank you .
Speaker 1Bye bud .
Speaker 2Bye , buddy , go with daddy and shut the door on the way out , please . Thank you Sorry , they were instructed to stay upstairs .
Speaker 1Emerging stage left a midget .
Speaker 2This is my little guy . Oh sorry , I don't know if you're able to get up .
Speaker 1That's totally fine . Yeah , we . It's hard to know if what you want to become is just the thing you think you're supposed to be , so you can get the recognition and validation you feel like you lack doubt on .
Speaker 2Yes , and you know what Funny you say that because I actually think that the more and more I've worked on that , that piece of just being finding happiness and acceptance in who I am and what I'm doing , the less of that desire weakens in me .
Speaker 1Yeah , I know , I had a huge fear for a while . I don't think that I really have it now , but it was like if , like , if I fuck , if I heal , if I heal from this throbbing need to be significant , well , I will I have any of the motivation and drive that I've had for so many years ? And the answer was you don't . I don't , not really , you won't . I mean not really , because because you , you know you need , you fucking need it . You needed to , to be seen , you fucking needed to be seen . You needed people to to think you were the man and you needed to feel , to feel powerful and strong and validated . You need to be seen . That's like the you know the , the wound of the young boy , you know . It's like you just need people to see you . And , yeah , that's one that's the difficult , that's one of the that's that has been somewhat of a night of dark , night of the soul of sorts .
Speaker 1For me , is is like OK , well , you know , I feel a lot better when I process the pain of not feeling significant and not feeling seen . I feel better inside . I feel like I arrive at the place inside that I thought waited on the other side of achievement and validation . So maybe this is a cheat code of sorts . And then what I've noticed I talked to a gentleman , jordan Candlish , on this podcast the other day about healing masculine wounds , and it was about being it you're able to show up . This is how I feel , truly . It's how I feel I feel a lot less motivated and a lot less like bursting with energy for the future , but I have this slow , slow , burning sense of like patient optimism and drive towards the future .
Speaker 1And the products I'm working on are feel like they finally have the time to come into their own , instead of me trying to shake them for all the the the significance and and validation and dopamine that I can , which is really really cool . I hope that in the next two decades or so that I'll be able to to discover a way of working and achieving and leading that sides more with vulnerability than it does with trying to posture yourself as being someone who's really awesome and successful , because that's what you need so bad .
Speaker 2I love that . I was just going to say so . For me , I think , that desire to be seen and understood and all of that , I think the way that I've channeled that is try to help other people feel that way , which I think is common Right , we try to give what what we need .
Speaker 2Yeah , and , and so the more I've been able to do that and help people , the more I found a lot of contentment . It's kind of like a mutually beneficial situation , right , and so I was going to say for you it seems , it seems to me like , even through doing your podcast and everything and in what you do in your day to day , to that it's helping people achieve a lot of the same Same things , that this is what it seems to me . Correct me if I'm wrong . It seems like you're helping people achieve what you want for yourself too , and that do you . It seems like you just said it's , instead of being this raging fire , maybe it's more that slow burning but eternal flame kind of situation , where that it that's just in you to want to do those things . But maybe , maybe when you had that need for validation and all of that that was fueling it , it was this raging fire , but instead it calmed down , so it didn't necessarily change your desire to have a purpose and make impact and and fulfill potential .
Speaker 2But it just maybe shifted into a way that was more sustainable for you .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely . It shifted into a way of being instead of a way of trying to be perceived by other people , and it's so much better . It's so much less occupied . My mind , my mind just spends so much less time now occupied with how what I'm doing comes across to somebody else . You know it's so much more about I don't know . My days are just a lot more quieter now . You know they're a lot more quieter , which is really awesome , and you're exactly right with something along the lines of being sustainable .
Speaker 1It feels sustainable , it feels like delayed gratification , it feels like I don't know . It just feels like once you're like , if you feel OK , then what's then ? The projects you start to work on , or feel like their birth , that of a sincere desire to , to do something useful with your time .
Speaker 1Yeah instead of instead of this thing that you think , oh , if I could get , you know , 10,000 followers on Instagram , then people would think I'm cool , and then , if they think I'm cool , I would think they think I'm cool , which would make me think I'm cool , like you know , like there's that , there's that . There's that quote that says you're not who you think you are . I'm not who I think I am and I'm not who you think I am . I'm who I think you think I am .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1That's , that's where I get my sense of identity , you know , yeah it is , it is , it is . It is really cool , man , that that whole that is , that is like the title of my life for the last three years has been that and and I have not lost the , I have not lost the connection to , to , to energy and source of , of flow . Yeah , but , it just is . It just looks a lot different . It just looks a lot different .
Speaker 2I love that and I think , like what you just said , instead of you know , instead of being who we think people think we are that's what I love about all this assessment work , because it's a little bit more of this objective way of looking at it and going oh no , like I can , I can have a strong sense of self that isn't tied to what I think people think of me , it's more really tapping into what do I think of me , who do I know myself to be ? And that doesn't mean we never care what anyone else thinks , because , like I think my favorite thing , I do follow Bernay Brown much . I do know her .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I figured you find it in in in this one talk that she gave . She talks about that you don't want to know , you don't want to necessarily , you don't want to care what everybody thinks , but you don't want to not care what anybody thinks . You want to find the people where it really matters to you what their , what their opinion and is of you and and what you're doing or your behaviors .
Speaker 2So her , her suggestion was to have a one , one inch by one inch piece of paper you carry around with you with them , with the few names of people whose opinions you really respect , and filtering it through that If they think , if they like somebody maybe like a mentor , a family member who loves you and you know and if they really have your best interest in mind and and or are knowledgeable maybe about the field that you're in or whatever it is the people you're going to for advice I want to really take that in and filter that in and that's going to matter to me , but I have to let some of the other stuff roll off my back .
Speaker 1That's absolutely and to . I had this thought the other day about I don't know it was hard to categorize whether it was a good thought or a bad thought , but I had a thought the other day about like the one of the values and purposes of my existence is to , is like and anyone's , not just mine , but is to , is the is impact to other people , the influence to other people and , you know , like one of the things that I've started to learn through this podcast
Personal Growth and Influence Power
Speaker 1. As I started this podcast Because I wanted to help people , this heroic desire to help people I wanted to do da , da , da da . Be Logan Paul who does wisdom podcast .
Speaker 1I wanted to be successful and I wanted to do something significant and it started to take on the shape of something that was a little bit more grounded and emotional , intelligent and and with and this kind of thing .
Speaker 1But over the process I've learned so much , and one of the greatest , one of the things I've really learned is that this podcast is , for me , mm-hmm . This podcast is the conversations that I have worked through my soul and helped me to heal and to grow . And Then I thought like , oh wait . So when I talked to my best friend in the world , christian Lane what a boy . When I talked to my best friend in the world , like when he's expressing to me those difficult things going on in life and he's feeling through stuff , he's having a hard time , like the depth of my own personal wisdom , the depth of my own personal presence , is the greatest service I could ever give To him . And that's what I'm doing with the podcast , despite all you wonderful listeners Thank you so much for listening is Continue to work on on me being the best person for that , one by one piece of paper with the four or five names that actually matter .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know because .
Speaker 1I thought , like you know , someone's gonna see this clip on Instagram and they'll be like , oh , that's fucking cool , but it'll be . You know , on the list of a thousand there are three hours a day of screen time . They took it and I was just seven seconds of it right amount of influence is like Piquito .
Speaker 1You know . There's nothing but the people in your life your husband , that midget that just walked in the back door , your kid . You know my mom . I have breakfast with my mom every Friday for the last seven years , every Friday , and there's been moments that she's brought out things to me that that Were hurting and needed love , and my ability to be present with that pain and to love it and not miss that moment Was like the entire world .
Speaker 1You know , I guess . I guess just what I'm trying to say is that , like you know we try to be , we miss the point , like the it's just the people who you have , the it's just people you have influence on , period that you're ever Gonna make an impact on , and that's why it's just like so much more important to be the best person For those few people in your inner circle then trying to reach the whole world with some bullshit , you know .
Speaker 2Message right , right and it's like that . That's one thing . That Is that . One thing I always work on is like people pleasing .
Speaker 2That's been a thing for me , my whole life and and wanting to make sure , like I never want to , never want to cause harm to anybody , never want to , you know . And so sometimes I fear even doing like a podcast interview , anything's like oh , surely I'm gonna say something that's maybe gonna upset somebody or hurt them or whatever . And then , and then I have to realize , well , hopefully , overall , what I'm sharing is really positive , and if that happens , I hope somebody will come to me and tell me and I'll just have to deal , I'll have to handle that that I'm , you know , that I was wrong about something or I could be better and I can improve , and so I have to overcome some of my own ego things To be able to be of any help to anybody else like I have to take that like , that's the risk that I overcome or like that , that , or the Risk that I take or the thing that I'm always trying to overcome in order to put any positivity out into the world .
Speaker 2I have to risk the idea that there might be some negativity that comes with that . It's something else I need to work on with myself , or something , but then I have to remember I value personal growth , and so that that's it , yeah yeah , 100% .
Speaker 1You become an example to others . When your friends , family , see you make a mistake or hurt someone or do something that you intend to , and the way you respond to that , you know like that's the greatest lesson you could ever give . It's much better than being perfect all the time . You know so great . I'm glad that you decided to do this podcast with me and I'm glad we spent 20 minutes Disparaging those damn ESTJs . They go hell , man , you are not valuable . I'm joking . I'm joking I we love them . Um , seriously , sincerely . Thank you so much for for joining me for this episode . Caitlyn , I really appreciate your time and your expertise on this .
Speaker 2Thank you so much . I really appreciate it . It's a wonderful time .