Let's Keep Talking with Braxton Gilbert
Talking with you about how life is healing & growing me!
Let's Keep Talking with Braxton Gilbert
From Cult Escape to Spiritual Awakening with Angel DeSantis
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
When Angel DeSantis recounts her escape from the Children of God cult, her story isn't just a chronicle of survival; it's a beacon of transformation for anyone seeking to reclaim their life from the shadows of oppression. Our latest podcast episode is a riveting narrative of Angel's ascent from a world where free thought was shackled by doctrine to a space where divinity is a personal and empowering experience.
Through candid recollections, Angel shares the complexities of her past life in the cult and the nuances of adapting to a world unfettered by dogmatic control. Her tales range from the humorous misuse of the term 'systemite' to the heartbreaking dissolution of her marriage, painting a vivid picture of resilience. This episode also peels back the layers on the therapeutic role of psychedelics in Angel's healing journey, inviting us to contemplate the ceremonial and transformative power of substances like ayahuasca, psilocybin mushrooms, MDMA, and ketamine.
Ending on a note of gratitude and encouragement, we're reminded by Angel's powerful message to persist in our own paths toward growth. Whether you're mending from similar experiences or seeking to empower your journey through adversity, this episode promises a mix of wisdom, comfort, and inspiration that speaks to the fortitude of the human spirit. Join us for an exploration into the heart of one woman's inspiring journey from victimhood to a life rich with self-discovery and freedom.
⬇️
⬇️
⬇️
Watch this episode and many more on my Youtube channel! 👀
Instagram/ Braxtongilbert
Escape Religious Cult, Find Freedom
Speaker 1Good morning everybody . Thank you so much for tuning in to let's Keep Talking . This is episode almost 70 , if not 70 already . And , damn Damn , do we have an interesting conversation today with Angel DeSantis .
Speaker 1Angel is someone I discovered on YouTube as I was looking into religious trauma syndrome , which is the ongoing psychological effects of someone being raised in an authoritarian , dogmatic belief structure . Authoritarian dogmatic religion I think I have that note somewhere . Ah , yes , religious trauma syndrome is the condition experienced by people who are leaving an authoritarian , dogmatic religion and coping with the damage of indoctrination . And indoctrination , as we learned a few episodes ago , is being taught to accept beliefs uncritically , not being taught to think critically . So I was looking into religious trauma syndrome and I discovered this awesome YouTuber named Angel , and Angel was talking about how to begin to connect to God , how to begin to connect to the divine , how to build your own relationship with God and how to heal from the difficult experience of going through indoctrination . Come to find out she was raised in a sex cult called the Children of God , born in China , moved to Japan and moved to the US , spent the first 23 years of her life in a sex cult called the Children of God , an apocalyptic cult . It was always the end of the world . She lived in a house with a hundred other people and then broke free when she was 23 years old . She is I think she's almost 40 now , because she said she's been out of it for 15-ish years . So yeah , that would be about 40 . And she's spent the last nearly two decades undoing the trauma of being brainwashed and indoctrinated to the highest degree , filled with fear , told who God is , and she has built such a heroic and admirable and amazing mind for herself and connection channel to God , to divinity , in a way that is empowering to her and not authoritarian and owned by somebody else .
Speaker 1I know that no one else listening to this episode maybe maybe one or two people , I don't know . Hey , what's up ? How you doing ? I don't think anyone else who's tuning into this episode today was raised in a cult of this degree . And if you are , oh my God . But all of us can learn from this story that we're going to share today .
Speaker 1All of us can learn from Angel's experience . There's something called , I think , the region's beta paradox , which is where you might be better off if you were worse , if your financial situation was worse off , then you might be motivated enough to fix it or your health or your relationship , etc . That sometimes something being just bad enough , but it's manageable . It's kind of a worse-off situation than if it was worse so you would actually do something about it . So it makes sense .
Speaker 1She's a prime example of that where this experience she has taken and turned into a superpower . She's taken this experience and turned into a superpower because the amount of waking up as an individual she's done in her life surpasses anyone else that I've ever talked to , ever . So , anyways , we talked all about that experience . We talked about getting out of the cult , we talked about learning how to think for herself , and then we talked about her doing ayahuasca and mushroom and MDMA ceremonies and ketamine ceremonies and we talked about psychedelic therapy . Anyways , without further ado , here's my wonderful conversation with Andrew Desantes . Thank you so much for listening to this episode . Please forget . Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe and like the video and all the other stuff . Help a brother out , let's hop into it . I'd love to start out with just talking about your story and giving everyone else some context that I have as I've consumed a lot of your YouTube videos just about Angel and growing up in this cult and what the experience was like , and we can go from there .
Speaker 2Okay , do you want me to start or you start ?
Speaker 1Yeah , go for it . I'd love to hear about it . Just where does it begin ?
Speaker 2Okay , so it began for me . It began in China . I was born to parents who were already inside of the children of God and they had joined in Indonesia and in Texas . They had both ended up in Indonesia and then they went to China and had me , and then they ended up moving to Japan because my mom is Chinese national and at that time they were still . They had just implemented , I think , the one child rule and I was her second and so she was going to be reported .
Speaker 1So they were going to have to boot you .
Speaker 2I don't know who they would have to boot , or if she was going to go to jail , I don't know . But one of her neighbors told her that like , hey , our other neighbor who we hate is going to the police now to tell on you . So then my parents ended up moving to Japan and they had six more children . So it's a good thing they left , but all of this was within the children of God . And so I grew up in communes across Japan and then moved to the US when I was 19 for my last few communes between the US and Mexico , and then , yeah , ended up leaving late , like late 2008 , I believe .
Speaker 2And it's been a journey since going out into the world and not knowing anybody in the world or how the world works , because you're just taught that , like , the world is a terrible place , everyone is against you , everyone's going to hate you and fight you . And so , yeah , into the world with that sort of mindset and understanding and slowly , over the course of the last however many years , just peeling the layers of that and the , you know , the path of autonomy and self-discovery and starting to read books that weren't cult books and starting to consume .
Speaker 1Yeah , exactly , finding out about music and TV shows and shit that doesn't come from your religious leader Exactly .
Speaker 2So just sort of opening to this new world and really finding that like , really honestly , what you believe is what you find evidence for . So when I believed that everyone in the world was against me and people were bad people , it's like I worked for very terrible employers and I had bad experiences . And then , as my world starts to expand and I expect different things and I expect people to be good and I expect good experiences , then I start to steer towards that and as I realize that I am capable of learning and understanding different things and I see myself expand in all these different ways , so it's been like quite the trip .
Speaker 1Yeah , how old were you when you left the cult ?
Speaker 2I was 23 .
Speaker 1Okay , and then can you tell us more what's going on in this cult ?
Speaker 2So this was a apocalyptic cult , so it was always the end of the world . And what they told me ? My understanding of the quality of my life and the value of my life was that I ?
Speaker 2was since birth . Yes , is that I was a soldier . So I was a soldier in the Lord's End Time Army because it was the end of the world , and my job would be to seduce soldiers and kill them and be able to last through the tribulation . So there's seven years of war . Well , once the Antichrist arises , there's three and a half years of peace , and then there's three and a half years of war , and so we were being trained to get through that three and a half years of war . So we were taught to be psychologically like they're going to torture you , they're going to gang rape you , they're going to do all this stuff . So , as a five year old , I'm trying to mentally prepare for being raped by soldiers , and those were the stories that they would read us to sleep in .
Speaker 1So at five years old . I'm sorry to interject , I just want to make sure that guy so at five years old , they're like hey little one , sit around like do you know what rape is Like ? It's coming .
Speaker 2Well , they weren't even . You know what it is . It's just like they would . It was in the bedtime stories they would read us .
Speaker 1Oh , this is who you're meant to be . This is who you're going to be for God .
Speaker 2Yes , and they're doing such a good thing .
Speaker 1They're like luring in these men and they're helping . They're helping out God's army .
Speaker 2Right . You're using your seductive powers to seduce men like for God and then also preparing you for your whole family to die . So I would be worried that you know my sisters and my brothers and my mom and like I would never see them again . But they also separated you in the cult . So I didn't grow up with my mom and dad . I didn't . My dad wasn't really in my life until we got into smaller communes when I was like 11 .
Speaker 1Are your parents still in the cult ?
Speaker 2My dad is still part , but everyone else in my family is out , which is nice , were you the first to go . No , I was second , and then yeah .
Speaker 1Who went first ?
Speaker 2My older sister left first .
Speaker 1And she was like you've got to get out here , man , it's great .
Speaker 2So she left and then they had us cut contact and so like I knew she was out there and I liked hope she was doing well , but also it was like every man for themselves so , and she was also on the East coast , so when I left I was West coast , so I left with my husband and it was just the two of us , um .
Speaker 1Did you meet ? Your husband and the cult .
Speaker 2I did . I met him the day that I landed in the US . He was in the same commune . And you were 23 years old . I met him when I was 19 .
Speaker 1Did he know of your purpose of seducing soldiers and was okay with it .
Speaker 2That's just what I'm born for . But no , that was purpose . And then also having as many children as possible , which I think that you see also now with any high control state that treats human lives as if they are very dispensable . They encourage the women to have as many children as possible , and so that was my job , and when I was 11 , they took me there . I was they . They had us do self study for math and English because we had to read , because we had to read all the cult literature and then , like basic math , and once I got to division , they were like you don't need to learn anymore because , like you're about to enter like childbearing years and so you just need to learn how to cook and clean and like raise children . So they put me on childcare duty and I would . Every day it would be like I would wake up and be like okay , we're not dead and really you're not dead .
Speaker 1Okay , we're not dead . Like we made another day , kind of thing . So you were kind of you were like , living every day like it was your last .
Speaker 2And , but it's . The interesting thing is that your brain doesn't develop to see time . So anyone who grows up in these very high stress environments , like war zones or anything like that your brain develops in a very different capacity . So , when I would talk to people and they would be like , well , college and then four years , and about now would be like four years , like what do you even meet ? Like it , just your brain doesn't develop past like 48 hours .
Speaker 1Yeah , we're not about like planning and being , we're like survival . It's all that we're talking about here .
Speaker 2It's very hand to mouth . So every day it would be wake up , clean the house , take care of the kids , cook for the commune , go to bed , and it's the same cycle every day . But there's no . I don't think that's weird because I don't see past 24 , 48 hours in my mind .
Speaker 2And so every day that is raised in this way , with these mindsets , and you know they don't give you any sort of . They are in charge of 100% of your intake , and so every every little bit of information that you have is set up so that you don't see any evidence to the contrary of what they're telling you . So , yeah , so it's a very interesting sort of endless loop to be in , and that was the every day .
Speaker 1The communes . You guys were living in communes . What do you mean ?
Speaker 2So it's like it's a communal living space and there were combo homes when I was growing up and the combo homes were like between like 60 to 100 people and basically we would get lots of land or abandoned houses outside of town and then we would just all live in there and then we would bust into town to do the begging because they would make the kids beg . That's how they paid their rent because nobody had jobs .
Speaker 1So you would . So hold on . Let me get my facts right on this . So you were , you're in , you're born in China , go to Japan because you don't want to get sliced and diced . You moved from Japan to the US . What part of the US ?
Speaker 2So I moved from Japan to the US at 19 . So by the time I was 19 , there were smaller homes . We weren't allowed to go past 36 people , because then the authorities would find you . Because the authorities had found the big communes and they had started rating them because they were like you guys can't abuse children , and so they had started taking children and putting them in foster care . So then that's when they changed the rules to be like okay , everyone break into smaller homes , of like you can't go above six To San Diego when I was 19 .
Speaker 1Oh cool . San Diego awesome . I have 23 written down was 23 . You got married . What was 23 ?
Speaker 2That was when I left and got married .
Speaker 1Gotcha Cool , okay . So when you're in Japan and then when you move over here to the US , was that whole time like both cases ? You were living in like groups of of tens of tens of people , like a community .
Speaker 2Yes , so I lived in combo homes , so like the big , big ones , I think the ones that I lived in for the longest time had 93 people , yeah . And then we moved into the smaller , the 36 to 38 people when I was like 11 or 12 , went into smaller communes and then moved to communes in the US who are that were also like 40-ish people , and Then Mexico same amount of people and then left when I was 23 , so I had never lived . And then when I went from that just to an apartment with my husband was just him and I and I just remember just being like I Don't even understand this . I don't understand it .
Life in a Cult
Speaker 1One other person here when you , when you and your husband got married at 23 and left , were you guys already Involved prior to leaving and getting married ? Was he like in the same house ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so we met in the same commune . We had like a little back and forth for a while , but then he Wanted to go to college , and you're not allowed to have any sort of higher education , and so he had to leave . And what asked me with him ? Oh yeah , I mean of course . Of course these cults don't like .
Speaker 1No , yeah , I'm totally with that . I was gonna say what like ? What's the ? What's the like amount of time you spend outside the like geographical Territory of the of the cults ownership ? Do you go to Wendixie ? Do you go to Walmart with with someone to get eggs ?
Speaker 2Yes , the Walmart , yeah , so they had people who would do that . So they divided it into because I mean these , these things by the time it started in 1969 . So at this point it's like the 2000s , so they have it down pat . So there were certain people . There were certain people who we just like very rarely leave the house unless we were going to , like , do a park day . But there were people who were like the home shoppers , who would go on Costco and do a Costco run . There were people who were like when I was in San Diego , we had an office Because we were , you know , laundering money Through a 501 C3 or we had people who would go to the office and then there were like the child care workers and the cooks and people that stayed at the house . So people had different jobs and then , for example , when I was in the combo homes , I would be on site through the week and then go out on the weekend and bed and then when I was in , where would you go ? You ?
Speaker 1would just go to like a local store and just hang out outside front like as a kid and be like yo hey , can I get some change ?
Speaker 2It would take us it would bust us into the city and then we would go to these like malls or big , big stop lights like in Japan Crosswalks you have to go to places where people are still . So we would go to these really big Crossings and the light would be like two minutes long or something like that . So you would have two minutes to run through and hit as many people as possible and just be like hey , remissionaries , can you give some money ?
Speaker 1That's gotta be such a it's gotta be such a unique experience to like To see with your eyes like there's something going on out here . People are just moving about , like this is full of commotion , everything's happening , but this isn't . This is not what we participate in . This is not what we're involved in .
Speaker 2Yeah , because they are systemites like those people are the people who have the veil over their eyes . They don't know that the end of the world is coming .
Speaker 1So how systemites ?
Speaker 2your systemites .
Speaker 1They're part of the system when you and when you and your . What's your husband's name ?
Speaker 2Oh , we're worst ex-husband , oh yeah .
Speaker 1I was gonna say did you guys ever use that as like a is like a , like a an insult . Be like you . Fucking system Might like what ? Do you guys got mad at each other , oh .
Speaker 2No , not when we got mad at each other . It's more like a funny thing and like I would be like oh , you know buying new socks and I would hashtag like just systemite things , oh .
Speaker 1My god , it's a way of life , man systemitis . I love it .
Speaker 2It's how to live , be able to keep the money from your paycheck like just systemite things .
Speaker 1So what happened with what happened with the husband ? Did you guys Was it just a normal breaking apart or was it co-related ? System might related . What was it ?
Speaker 2I mean , I think that there were a lot of things working against us obviously because , we both were up in a cult and we both came from a lot of trauma .
Speaker 2And when we got out , the whole basis Like when you grow up in a really high stress environment , nobody has time for your feelings your feelings are bullshit . Like , oh , are you sad ? Well , guess what ? The end of the world is almost here . So like , suck it up . And so that's always that sort of thing , and I think also in society . Um , that's sort of what Society tells them . Like , oh , are you sad ? Guess what ? Nobody cares , suck it up .
Journey of Healing and Empowerment
Speaker 2And so , as I was trying to process like what had happened to me , his way of helping me was like oh are you sad ?
Speaker 1suck it up .
Speaker 2Yeah , and you just like like just white labeled the advice given from the world and call it helpful friendship advice and so as I'm starting to enter healing like communities , and as I'm starting to make friends and tell them my story and receive such empathy and love and you know people being like , oh , that shouldn't have happened , or like here , see my therapist , or do you need a hug ? And like starting to Be around healthy people , then I began to see how unhealthy my marriage was . And the thing is , is that coming from the cult we had such a good relationship For coming from a cult and then , once you take that into the real world , then it's like your husband is supposed to like listen to you or like yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1Now You're like wait a second .
Speaker 2You're a pair of himself and it's like things like that . And then realizing like I am still carrying a lot of stuff with me that I am able , unable to work through , because I am still attached to this person who hasn't seen the need to detach from the thing that we came from . Yeah , absolutely and so it was a very natural falling away . It was a very Like painful thing to go through and then also to realize like I'm really on my own then once I get divorced , Because , then I don't have the partner , who you know did do his best to understand what I was going through and who understands my background .
Speaker 2And now I have to Go into the world Just alone , and you know , I'd never dated before , I had not ever , like none of those things that ever crossed my mind , and so like , stepping out into the world just fully alone Was a difficult thing , but it was better than staying in the marriage .
Speaker 2Yeah and so that is how that went , but it's it's very good now and we have a good relationship . Now he's very happily remarried and is a is a very good husband to his current wife and and we talk every once in a while and and they're very grateful For each other , because I don't think either of us would have been able to leave without each other .
Speaker 1So yeah , yeah , 100% . That relationship served a great purpose for you at that time . I want to , I want to say that I think you rock Really . I mean you're like a hero man , seriously , and it almost makes me emotional Just saying it , because you fucking rock , dude . You have like , you have such a fucking cool , you have such an inspirational Story of empowerment , like it is amazing to listen to you talk about this and then like just to see Someone who anyone on a healing journey of sorts , is in a difficult space , constantly opening yourself and looking inside and opening yourself and looking inside and open yourself . That's hard enough , as is for anyone , but to come from where you came from , oh my god , that's incredible .
Speaker 2Thank you . I have my premise now , which I will interject , and I really believe that the heroes journey is An archetypal journey that we all need to take in our lives , like our purpose and here is to take the heroes journey and rescue ourselves from whatever circumstances that we are born into and to Find ourselves , like that divine spark inside of us and draw it out and guide it home , and so that is really . Yeah , that is what I feel like I have been able to do for myself and I'm still on that journey , and it's always so wonderful To see other people who are on their own like heroes journey .
Speaker 1Yeah , I know this might be a weird question , but do you think in you think , in a way , that you Are at a like , a huge advantage because of the experience you grew up with , because you know , like that , what's the region's better paradox , which is like you'd be better off if it was worse . You know like you would , you would do something .
Journey From Victimhood to Empowerment
Speaker 1Most people live as a result of dogmatic . You know Programming their entire life and never break away . But yours was so bad . You're like fuck this shit , I'm out and look at you , yeah , so I mean , it takes a while to get here because , of course , there are so many years where I'm like my life is terrible , why did this happen to me ?
Speaker 2I don't deserve this person . Um , and then walking far enough into the journey to look back and be like I wouldn't change anything , I would leave it exactly as it is and I wouldn't change a thing because I have learned so , so much , and what a privilege it is to See how capable you are , is to see how capable I am and to have rescued myself over and over and to have grown . Really , I believe we come as seeds and seeds grow , but they need fertile ground , and so to see that I can be the seed and the ground and I can water , I Think is really amazing , to the point that , like I just I feel very blessed a lot , and again , it takes a while to To walk yourself from . Why did this happen to me too ? I'm so glad that everything happened as it did , but I Mean it's a worthy journey to take because then every single day is such a blessing hmm Well , what was that transition like , what were some of the nuances of it ?
Speaker 1from victimhood of why the fuck did this happen to me and this is so stupid , and I don't even know who Chris Brown or Rihanna is or what you know MTV is I don't even know it . Why have I missed out to then going , like , wait a second . This is the hero's journey . This is me discovering myself and this is this is the most beautiful opportunity ever . How did that begin to happen and what was that like ?
Speaker 2So it's such a brick by brick thing and it's like how to walk 20 miles . It's super simple you just start walking you get in a car Wrong you do not , I do it .
Speaker 2But it's really . It's so simple . It's one step in front of the other and you get to your destination . But I think what I had expected at the start of the journey was that there would be an aha moment . So I would get to the thing and I would be like , oh , this is my magic moment , and now everything is healed and nothing will ever come up again , as Opposed to like it is a structure that you are building and when you build a structure , it's like you know , first you start with it .
Speaker 2It's it's like a tear down of a house . Like you get a really shitty structure and a really shitty house and the whole thing has to be torn down . But you can't tear the whole thing down unless you have like a little shelter to be underneath , otherwise you're gonna be exposed to the elements . So it's like it starts with that like what's my little shelter ? And it was being by myself , because I felt very safe alone and Finding stoicism . I don't . I think if I didn't find stoicism , I don't think I could have had the like mini structure to keep myself safe . But I found logical thought and that was incredible to me because all of my thoughts were Very purposely created to be very confusing so that I would be easier to control . But once I found logical thought and I realized I could , if somebody told me something or if I wasn't sure , I could ask Is it true and is it useful ? And if thoughts were true and useful , then I could hang on to them . And that was my tiny little structure that I got into and then I just tore the whole thing down . Um , and then you really build brick by brick .
Speaker 2But one thing that was very paramount to me as I was building myself up is I was in this place . I used to ask why me ? And then I started asking why not me ? And I thought , well , you know , other people have degrees or other people have healthy relationships or other people have . And then I started asking , well , why not me ? And then I realized , oh , that's a really nice life hack , because when I ask why not me , there's no reason . And then I can start . Actually , you know , this person has a well-paying job . Well , why not me ? Like , why can't I go get that ? And so my brain , I put my brain in this loop of asking . Whenever it asked why , I would ask why not . And it had been working and I had been finding ways to like empower myself to go after the things that I wanted through that loop .
Speaker 2And then one evening I was just like in a bad place and I thought about you know , like some of the darker times in my life and some of the abuse , and I thought , god , why me ? And my brain went well , why not you ? And I was like what ? Because the loop was still running . And I was like , why not me ? Well , because I'm a good person and because this and I don't deserve that . And then I was like , well , if it has to be someone who , like who , could take it instead of me . Because , like , if this thing had to happen , which it does all the time , I was like , well , if it's not me , then who , like who would I give it to ? And then sort of realizing , like I really shouldn't go to anyone . There really is not , there's no reason why it shouldn't have been me and it just it happened to me because I was there and that's really just happened .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I couldn't find a good enough reason why it shouldn't have been me , because , like , well , I'm a good person , well , everyone's like . You know , everyone has what I have . People are . People are generally good no child is that and so I really couldn't come up with a reason why it shouldn't be me . I also couldn't come up with the reason why it should , but I thought , well , maybe you know , at least I'm strong and it's something that I believe I can overcome . And then I thought , well , maybe then this is why it happened , because I am capable of overcoming . So let me just hold on to that for dear life and try and walk forward .
Speaker 1So first you ask yourself why me , oh God , why me ? And then you said why not me ? I'm , you know , I could take this on . And then it turned into neither , or it was just like well , it is what it is . Maybe there's no reason , it happened or didn't happen . But now , what do I do ?
Speaker 2Exactly , and then it sort of starts catching you up to . Well , now we're present , because what trauma does is it keeps you in the past , you know , and as you work through trauma , all you're really doing is trying to catch yourself up to this current moment .
Speaker 1So then , when I'm in this Go ahead Sorry . Do you feel like the why not me ? Thing is a good step but not a good place to stay ?
Speaker 2Yes . So I really believe that it's all about steps moving forward . Nowhere is a good place to stay . Forward motion is the place to stay . There is not a place that you want to get to where you're like OK , now I understand everything . I'm going to park here . You always like camp for the night . Keep going . There's always something in front of you that will help you when you look back to see the picture in a more nuanced way . So you do always want to keep moving . The moment that you think you're done is the moment the picture starts to blur .
Speaker 1And it's stale and weird .
Speaker 2Yeah , it starts to really distort because you think that you have the picture .
Speaker 1You only had the picture , then that was the picture . Then you know , like looking at your window , like looking at your window , you know it always changes , it's always different , and you have wisdom or spiritual practice is being willing to look out the window and see what's out there .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Mm .
Speaker 2But yeah , I don't know where we were . We were in the middle of something .
Speaker 1We're about . We're about moving from why me to why not me , to seeing what it really is , and always moving forward .
Speaker 2So trauma keeps you like trapped in the past , and I think that , as you're willing to ask questions that are neither disempowering or empowering , they're just questions .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2If I ask you a question , naturally you're going to rack your brain for an answer . Like , if I ask you is there such a thing as a frog that is blue and yellow ? Like , naturally your brain is going to start filtering . Like is there , do I know ? Like maybe in the Amazon . And so there's something inside of you that can be called up .
Speaker 2And so once I figured that out , I was like , let me just ask myself a bunch of questions and not get too attached to the answer , but see if I can get more information for a more well-rounded answer . And that started a whole thing for me of like can I do this thing ? And it's like yes and no . And do I want to do this thing ? Why do I want to do it ? Why don't I want to do it ? What are the reasons that I do and I don't , and who do I think will be for me or against me and why ? And so starting to walk myself into this sort of psychological journey of like , what are my beliefs and what are my thought patterns ? And again back to that stoic filter that I created for myself , like are these thoughts true and useful , or are they simply thoughts that I believe ? Because those are all different things , and so starting to really parse out all these different aspects of my life and be able to deconstruct or reconstruct them as necessary , as long as they are helping me farther along my journey .
Speaker 1You rock , you know that right .
Speaker 2It's made sense to me , so I'm glad that it's works .
Speaker 1Why did you leave ? Why did it get so bad you left ? Why was it like , oh , fuck this shit , I'm out . What happened ?
Speaker 2For which one ? For a cult , for marriage or both .
Speaker 1Cult .
Speaker 2So I never wanted to leave , and that was something that I had to struggle with later , of like why , didn't .
Speaker 2I know , because it really it's all you know . And I was told that this was the best that it gets , and I believe that because I wasn't allowed evidence to the contrary .
Religious Trauma and Finding Inner Power
Speaker 2So when it came time to leave , I left because I didn't want my boyfriend at the time , I didn't want him to be alone and I thought that I would be safe with him . There was you know how , like we have the things that we think and we have the things that we're told , and underneath that is a self . And I knew that I wasn't supposed to leave . I knew that God would come for me if I left and you know I had all this stuff that I thought that I knew . But when I really sat down and I was quiet and I thought , what do I want to do ? I knew that I wanted to go and it was the first time I sort of heard that Like inner voice and I knew that I wasn't wrong . And so I left because I wanted to be with him , I didn't want him to be alone and I wanted to start a life together .
Speaker 2Still not being able to see time and still like just the whole thing was not good , but I just I knew it was the thing to do , and so that's how . I didn't think that what I was in was bad . I didn't think that what I was in was a cult , because , you know , nobody joins a cult . You join a movement .
Speaker 2And so it was after a few years that I was able Like , and also in talking to people and hearing other people talk . And being like was what I grew up in wrong , you know , it's like after you get more information then you can look at the thing . But it took me a while before I realized that what I had grown up in was incorrect .
Speaker 1Let's talk about religious trauma syndrome . Regardless of if you're listening to this , what's up , how you doing . Thanks for tuning in . If you grew up in a cult with Angel , then you recognize Angel , but if you grew up in any well , we all grow up and adopt these dogmatic belief structures . Some people it's through just traditional religion and there's other ways . Let's stay the conversation on the religious aspect of it , because a lot of people , myself included , have come out of being brought up in a certain religion , being told this is who God is , and God is such a powerful word because it's like this is the number one biggest thing to orient yourself towards in life . This is who God is , and I know there's a lot of people , angel , that could benefit from hearing you talk about identifying religious trauma syndrome in your life , what it is and how to begin to grapple with it and apply some of the breakthroughs to make your life more free and beautiful .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think this topic is very , very nuanced . The first thing that I will say is that religious trauma has nothing to do with God , and I think that that is a very , very important piece . But religious trauma generally has to do with how we were taught to view God and the role that God plays in our life , and so the premise of religious trauma is that you are inherently wrong and the world is wrong , and that's why God had to send his son in the Christian tradition , or had to send a prophet in other religions to show you how you are wrong and how the world is wrong . And you are immediately I'm just going to stay with the Christian being , because that's how it was raised you are immediately indebted to this God , like as soon as you come into the world and into this like shitty , terrible world you're in and like that is such a like , that's such a , it's such , it's there , it's like it's right in the open .
Speaker 1It's like rule number one you are unworthy and damned to hell , got it , and then now you can go in the building and that is . It's like . So hard Like look honestly , genuinely . All respect to everyone and their personal relationship with religion .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1But but exit the podcast now . But that should be a huge like electing a gigantic red flag . That's just like turn back now . If the premise of this entire movement , organization , family , whatever , is that you are wrong . I like I'm a former former , I'm a Christian kind of . I mean , I'm a former Christian in some regard , but like , I still kind of like worship music from time to time and some came on the radio the other day or my phone on a mix on like my playlist , and I was like you know , I like the sound of this music . But then one of the first words out of Phil Wickham , what's up , phil Wickham ? One of the first words out of his mouth was Jesus , you bore all my shame and I'm like I can't get down with this man . I can't get down with this . I was just going to jive with the tunes , but it's all built on that that you are unworthy and unlovable and damned to hell . And it's not true , man , sorry . Anyways , such an interesting beginning point for religion .
Speaker 2Yeah , so it's just such an aggressive intro into this worldview . And then the flaw with religious trauma is , of course , they set up this omniscient being that you now have to source from , and it's not an internal source , it's an external source . And so you're constantly having to draw from not you , you're incapable , you can't even walk without them holding your hands , but you're constantly having to draw from this external source . And then , yeah , and then this external source is what other people tell you it is , so you don't even develop a relationship with God , like you develop a relationship with somebody who claims to know the mind of God , who generally is always a terrible person , because that's such an aggressive authority grab , and you only make an authority grab like that when you have no authority yourself .
Speaker 1So the whole story .
Speaker 2Yes , go ahead .
Speaker 1How do you get someone to consider that that's a red flag ? How do you get someone to ? I guess you shouldn't try to force anybody to wake up from their religion or anything , but , like you know , how do you get someone to see that , like yo , you are damned from the start in this thing and that's a ? That's a red flag .
Speaker 2I think what I have learned is it's less about trying to convince people of anything and more reminding them of their own capability . And also , there is a very gigantic flaw in the idea that God made you in his image . And guess what ? You're a piece of shit . Okay , so then God's a piece of shit , right ?
Speaker 1Like maybe , maybe God fucked up too man .
Speaker 2If God is putting people here in his image , then you come complete and your your . The thing that you want to do is create a personal relationship with God . The thing that you don't want to do is to think of God as other and outside of yourself and under the control of something else , and as someone that will punish you and the tap you . So then there's this omniscient being in charge of the whole world that hates you and will attack you if you do anything wrong , and that's just so incorrect and sets you up for such a life of anxiety and like fear .
Speaker 2The whole thing is fear based if you view it that way . But if you remind people that like if you're made in the image of God , that means there's a little bit of her inside of you . That means that you have come with everything that you need and all you have to do is bring yourself to life . So what is it that you like about yourself ? What do you think is a God like quality about yourself ? What do you think is your gift ? How can you bring that to life ? How do you feel peaceful ?
Speaker 2And drawing people back to themselves will naturally have them start to detach from whoever has claimed authority over their lives or whoever . If I'm trying to draw you out , if I say start to believe in yourself and start to think for yourself and you do you are naturally going to clash with whoever has determined that they are the authority over your life . And at that point , when that starts to happen , is when I would again remind you like this person is not God , but you have a personal relationship with God . Go back to yourself , go back to your autonomy , go back to the God given authority you have over yourself and you don't need to be attached to this person who is claiming to be your access to God , because no one is the source to God . You are the source to God . That's it .
Speaker 2So how can we get people to return to that knowledge and remembering that we are all divine and it doesn't matter what sort of label you want to call it ? We're all drinking from the same stream with different cups and we're arguing over what cup to use , but there is , yes , this divine source , and the unique thing that you have is the thing that you can start to attune back to that source , and that will naturally draw you away from the sort of charlatans that claim to be closer to God than you are , you know yeah , the relationship that we have with our idea of God is one that's given to us by other people and it's like it's like most , it's like we don't think that we have the ability to , as grownups , then reevaluate it , because we're still a kid in our thinking .
Speaker 1We're like there's always bigger people , grownup people , who know better than we do , and we rely on this like just idea that the larger group of people have kind of collectively agreed that this is true . And who are we to argue with everybody ? So we never branch out and begin to like you're saying a beautiful thing of begin to listen inwards to find the voice of God , instead of going into a book or listening to a teacher pulling away and getting quiet , because if you close your eyes and you get quiet , whatever you learn about God in that space is so much more valuable than anything you could ever learn from someone else's words .
Speaker 2Truly truly and I really believe that the spiritual journey is a journey of archetypes , you know . So it's like the hero's journey is an archetypal journey and we can all take it . The prodigal son is an archetypal journey , and we can all take it . So many of these stories , I think , are not describing the story of an actual event but actually happened . It's an archetypal journey that is shown .
Speaker 1I know archetypal . I know archetypal in very like I know a guy who knows a guy who knows an archetype , Like I know it vaguely but I know , Let me go the chance that we're all on the same page . Yeah , Jamie , pull that up real quick .
Speaker 2So an archetype is a very typical example of a certain person or thing . So , for example , the archetype of a genre . So you can say , like the genre in the genre of fantasy .
Speaker 1Yeah , like I know that archetype typically means like archetypes the same thing as a southern word , old like that's just a good old woman or man , like that's just a good old brother , like that's just a typical thing . But you also have archetypes like , from what you're saying , the story , the archetype of , like the Joker or the hero .
Speaker 2Story . So let me see so , for example , the archetype . This is always very simple , so I can do the archetype of , like the typical mother-in-law .
Speaker 1Yes , yeah .
Speaker 2That's what everyone hates , and you immediately get this thing in your mind and you understand the character . The character comes to life because it's another in-law archetype .
Speaker 1Yeah , or like a .
Speaker 2Or I can talk about like a child and everyone will sort of understand , you know . Or if I say like oh Brassman is such a night archetype I got .
Speaker 1your audio is not coming through right now .
Speaker 2You immediately , then people will understand a little bit of your personality , a little bit more . If I say , oh , he's kind of a , you know , he's kind of a night I can't hear you right now for some reason A fool , or he's kind of a , you know , it's like these sort of archetype things .
Speaker 2So I think , when it comes to spirituality and how I view these things in the Christian faith or in other faiths and other . I think it's all fables , and even you know the story of Snow White or the . You know the princess archetype or whatever it's like .
Speaker 1What are these stories ?
Speaker 2teaching us about energies . Your mic is not . I can't hear you .
Speaker 1We're back .
Speaker 2Well that , that was a fun little journey .
Speaker 1Are we good ? Can you hear me now ?
Speaker 2I can hear you All right .
Speaker 1Wonderful . Wonderful Okay , so you just you went on a tangent , you went on a tangent about archetypes and
Interpreting the Prodigal Son Journey
Speaker 1none of it .
Speaker 2I went on a tangent on archetypes , but I'm saying that in the journey of archetypes , and especially in , like , the Christian faith , I think that all of these things are very useful stories that are given to us for us to use in our journey through life . So , like , we need these stories , we need these understandings to help us navigate the many , many different types of scenarios and energies that we'll run across . But the way that it's taught makes us , it blinds us to the actual wisdom of the teachings you know .
Speaker 1So in that way . So , for example , I'm trying to think like the journey of the prodigal son , where you know he Like coming back to Christianity , is the point of the prodigal son , like that's the point of the prodigal son , that's the point of the whole thing , Right yes , come back to Jesus , yes .
Speaker 2Because if you leave , you're going to lose all your wares , and that's you should just not leave in the first place .
Speaker 2You should just stay with Jesus and then the other people who are leaving and having a good time . It's because they're still in their hoe phase of the prodigal son journey , but they'll come back . No , it's used as a means to control , as opposed to how I see it now in my journey of the journey of the prodigal son is a spirituality where , like , I leave the cult , I leave Christianity , I go into the fray and sort of explore and learn and find all these things and I end up back at a very deep spirituality which is so welcoming and welcomes me back , even though I am a different person and it is the same source and in a way , instead of saying that the group will always let you back in , so you should know , instead of saying that you shouldn't leave because you lose your inheritance and squander and have to eat like pigs .
Speaker 1Instead it's saying that you are able to leave and when you return you'll be welcomed back with open arms and love . So it's saying go , leave what you know , leave what you believe to be true , leave what you're so certain of . Scratch the itch you need to scratch . Go and do what you need to do so that you can explore . That's your soul trying to go gather experiences . Go do it , because we'll welcome you when you come back with open arms . That's what the prodigal son story is saying . That's what you're saying .
Speaker 2Well , that's what I'm saying is that's a different interpretation and that interpretation that you just gave and that is a much more that allows you . If you read the story and get that , then when you're at that moment of questioning , you feel more free of like well , I'm on the journey of the prodigal son .
Speaker 2I'm going to go into this phase where I leave everything behind and I got to know what's out there and it's like you know , if you go up in a small town and you go and you go to the big city and blah blah , you might end up back at that small town . But this time it's because it's your choice and you've seen what's out there , you've realized how wonderful it is at home and now , when you go back , you're happy to be there and you know how valuable this is .
Speaker 1You know , and it's a different thing . That's a really cool insight .
Speaker 2That's a really interesting insight , Angel .
Speaker 1Seriously , it really is . Because , that's yeah .
Speaker 2I mean the way that it's taught versus what it can teach . I think are two very different things . And when it's taught to you , it's taught under the umbrella of . This is a high control thing . I want to control your behavior to save you from yourself , because you're inherently bad .
Speaker 2As opposed to like it really doesn't matter what path you take , right , the brother that stayed behind in the prodigal son journey . He didn't have a better experience than the brother that went out and came back . They both ended up in the same place , sure , but neither was right or wrong . It was just two different journeys .
Speaker 1It's so interesting when you begin to look at spiritual text and things like that as letters of love or encouragement to anyone , in any situation they find themselves in . Are you being patient and still and being diligent in painful situations ? Here's love and encouragement . Are you deciding to fuck it all and break through it and go to explore here's love and encouragement ? But that is such a better I mean , that's such a helpful way for myself to view spiritual text , not as an authoritarian . This is the voice of God telling you that you need to stay home with your father .
Speaker 2Well , I think that's the thing is , when human beings get a hold of these texts , they use it to control , and these were meant to love and to help you create a safe space for yourself . And again the issue is when a human being tries to get authority over another human being . That's just ridiculous . We all have the same capacity to self-govern .
Speaker 1How do you begin ? Do you do this for work too ? You do counseling with people through religious trauma stuff .
Speaker 2I don't . I did for a little bit and I realized that that is not the thing that thrills me , Because I created my courses and I have them live there . But again , I don't know what you need . I can just tell you everything that I know and hope that you find something in there that's useful for you on your journey . But I really believe that there are parts of the journey that you can do with others and there are parts of the journey you have to do alone . And a lot of the parts of the healing journey you have to do alone because you have all the context for that and there are things that we have been through that . Some of it we can say , some of it we can't say and some of it is unsayable , and the person across from you will never know what you can't say and what is unsayable . And those are the parts that you have to walk alone and a lot of this journey is you've got to do it alone .
Speaker 1I'm writing that down . How can you encourage somebody to consider the idea that the voice of God is the one inside your head , the one , the one the best connection you'll ever hear from God is ? It comes out of you , inside of your awareness . It comes out through you . It doesn't go into you through someone else's mouth . How do you encourage someone to begin to grasp that idea ?
Speaker 2So it's for me , it's about getting them into a state , because I can tell you all day , every day , that voice of God is inside of you , and if you never sit still and you never get into a meditative state and you're never open , then it doesn't matter . If you know this , I could be a marathon runner , but guess what ? I'm never going to be in that state , so I'm never going to find out . So I think it's that thing .
Speaker 1I don't know , with your 20 mile thing , you might figure it out sooner enough .
Exploring Spirituality and Independent Thinking
Speaker 2I think it's also understanding that God or spirit or the universe or whatever it is , it doesn't talk to you in your thoughts . It comes to you in a complete sentence or picture . So when I talk to you it's linear . I say certain words first so that by the time I get to the end it makes sense .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2So you can kind of know where I'm going . You can kind of know what's coming and where I'm going with this . When spirit talks to you , it comes in one full statement . It's not linear . You cannot tell where it's going . It comes complete and it is a picture or a feeling or a thought that comes fully formed . You do not form it , and that's the difference between like the thoughts in your head and spirit talking to you as it comes as a complete thing . Spirit never comes incomplete .
Speaker 1Have you moved into a different phase of sorts of where you place spirituality , like initially maybe it was something to be discovered and something to . First it was something to undo and make your own , and then now has spirituality developed a utility of sorts that doesn't place it as the further most important thing in your life anymore ?
Speaker 2Well , so I think for a while it was definitely not the most important thing . I think the deconstruction of it was very important . And then there's just a few years where I just don't give a shit about spirituality , you know , and I'm just I'm going to do everything myself , and I found out about logical thought and a checklist and , by God , that's all I need , and it works until it doesn't , until you run into a wall and all your worksheets can't get you around the wall and you realize that you either you got to dig under the wall or you got to go over , and which means you either have to go into something dark that you haven't been through before or you have to learn how to fly , and those are your only options through the wall . And so now I've come back to this spiritual practice and it is important to me , but it is , but heaven doesn't punish , so I'm not stressed about my spiritual practice .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Not like I didn't meditate today . That means I'm not a spiritual person .
Speaker 1Yeah yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2You know , it's just it's . It's easy , because I know that this exists and for the rest of my life it is such a loving and upholding divine force and so I would like to be closer to it . But I'm in charge of that . It's not keeping track about whether or not I'm attending the meeting . It's just there as open source and whenever I want to tap in and have a better experience of my life , I can tap in .
Speaker 1So what happened when you started to think for yourself ? What horrible things started to happen . What did you do when you decided to make your own decisions ?
Speaker 2Wow . Um , the first thing I did is I would not listen to music on my drives . Because I would listen to music on my drives like Christian music and whatever it was just to keep me from thinking . Because I was taught not to think and once I figured out I can actually take an issue and think about it and spend time thinking about this thing and I could sort it out . Then I would just drive , not listening to music , and I would just think and be like , oh my God , that means I can leave my house at like four o'clock and drive somewhere , and by the time I get there at 430 , I will have more knowledge in my brain . That is more useful than what I had at four o'clock . And so once I found that out , it was really I mean , obviously so impactful and I started to learn about , like how I can . I can start to create my own world , I can remember where I put things , I can learn , I can read different things and then understand them . I can start to formulate my own thoughts and thought patterns and I can start to look for patterns in different things and start to connect them .
Speaker 2And this is what I thought everybody did . This is what I thought , that when you went to school they taught you this . So I would read like two books at a time and try and find . Like I would get two books on like I believe one of them was sapiens and one of them was like how ? So it was like a book on the human origins and it was a book on how thought works . And I would read them side by side and see if I could pull out any patterns of like this is the origin of thought and this is the origin , like origin , of intelligent life . And is there any crossover ? And I would start to find crossover .
Speaker 1You and LSD at the time .
Speaker 2I assume that this is what , when you take LSD or when you take these sort of drugs , like what happens is like this huge , like explosion , and then connection , and because my brain had been on lockdown for so long when it accessed thought , I believe it's like the same sort of feelings of like euphoria and understanding and connections across the board on multiple different levels . So once I started thinking , other people started losing their ability to control and then that was a whole thing . Then I have to go through all the psychological journey of walking away from people who are only in your life because you are controllable , and learning how to navigate that . And then being like can I use , like , how much thought can I use to navigate away from this ? Versus how much ? How much of my knowledge of humanity do I need to pour in in order to navigate this ?
Speaker 2And then starting to learn how to blend those two things you know and learning how to navigate not just logical thought but also the human condition and also people's emotions , and starting to draw those patterns in and , from what I know of human nature and my experiences , how can I enter into this old pattern but create a new outcome ? And it requires different thoughts and all the knowledge that I have of the human condition and different nuance and behavior from me , which again goes back to like gamifying things . And then how can I move through the world , elevating myself and my life without causing harm to others , but definitely being able to navigate away from people who would harm me ? So it's a very , very useful thing to be able to think for yourself , and I think it naturally carries you towards a better quality of life , especially when you have the courage to act on what you know to be true thoughts .
Speaker 1Have you ever taken LSD or any psychedelic substances ?
Speaker 2Yes , no to LSD , but that will be by the time this airs in my hip and gas who knows . But I've done plant medicines and that really has gotten me to deeper into the heart space because I think it's like all dead for a while .
Speaker 1What , what , what did you do ? Okay , so I started with I am saying wasca really apparently it's an aggressive start pump the brakes dog really yeah . Yeah , no way okay , what's the way ? Listen , we don't do anything halfway , we go all in day one out of the cold , I do ayahuasca and and yeah , okay , hold on , that's awesome man . So wait , how did you start with ayahuasca instead of like some mushrooms or some ?
Speaker 2I had done like a micro dose . I had done like A half a gram of mushrooms okay , and so told me well , it's plant medicine , ayahuasca plant medicine . So I was like great , so it's the same so I had said yes to and I had heard all sorts of things about ayahuasca , and the only reason I did it is because I had a very good friend who I trusted and I had known for years and and he invited me .
Speaker 1Where did you do it ?
Speaker 2I did a private with just him and I .
Speaker 1Okay .
Speaker 2I really the things in group like we did so many group things , obviously growing up in a cult and we're all gonna be together . I was like I know and so tell me about your ayahuasca experience .
Speaker 2It was really , really beautiful . Um , I Didn't know what to expect , but I think and this is my thing that I will tell everybody who's on their healing journey is you have to be very Unafraid of what you're going to see before you go in , and if there is any part of you that is unafra , that is afraid of what you Might be shown , don't do it , because I I know that it was a good timing for me because I felt Very healed from all the stuff that I had been
Ayahuasca and Psychedelic Experiences
Speaker 2through . I did understand already that everything was as it was , that as it should be , and so when I went in to meet with the medicine , I didn't expect anything . I just told it whatever you want to show me , I want to see , and Everything is welcome , and and I surrender and one piece of advice that um the shaman gave me , my friend gave me as I went in as he said , if you try to fight what it's showing you , it's gonna hold you there .
Speaker 2Yeah it stays . So when people that trip , it's generally because they're fighting what they're seeing , and so it keeps you there .
Speaker 1That's true .
Speaker 2Yeah . And so he said , if there's anything that you don't want to see , or if you stop , if you start fighting it , you're gonna have a bad trip . So just let yourself go into it and it'll keep moving you . And there was a point where I Thought that I want to battle . And I did , I want , I want to battle . And so I was like great , amazing . And I was . I was on a bird and it was beautiful . And then I saw this like pile of darkness and I had already had a battle with the darkness and I had already won . So I saw more darkness . So I steered the bird . I was like let's go fight it because I know I can win . And so I went and I started fighting it and I started losing and I started like panicking a little bit of like no , no , no , no , like I win this . I've , I've already won this . Like you're supposed to let me win this one .
Speaker 2And I kept on getting like farther and farther into it and it started like overwhelming me and Then I remembered what he had said of like don't fight , I have to let it win yeah and then I just had to make the conscious choice to like okay , I can't win this , I'm just gonna go in , and then everything went black and you just have to go into the surrender . And then , of course , because it's ayahuasca and it's and like the spiritual journey , like the life journey , it's constantly moving , it moved me out . Yeah and I was like oh , I Mean , because it's just like life , like we're not trying to win life , we're just trying to continue on with us .
Speaker 2Yeah there's no thing we were never gonna win in the first place . Whatever battle it is that you're fighting , you're not gonna win it .
Speaker 1It's such a for anyone listening to that that that is such a good Reminder . Always with any type of psychedelic or drug experience period . Is that especially psychedelics ? I mean , like you know , if you , if you've done tons of cocaine all night and you think you might die , you might die , my friend , you should go to the hospital . But if it's a psychoactive substance , if you've eaten mushrooms , if you've tested your drugs that you've taken , if you've tested everything for Fetanol , if you , if you've made sure that what you're doing is is safe , and then if it's psychedelic and you feel like you're , you feel you feel this horrible fear towards the thing that you're facing . Just know you have two options , my friend be really fucking afraid and relax , or be really fucking afraid and tense up , and only one of those , only one of those , will get you through it . Let that shit go , man . Okay , so you do the ayahuasca . How intense was it . I've never done ayahuasca before .
Speaker 2Oh really .
Speaker 1I've done a ton of psychedelics , but I've never done ayahuasca before . In my mind , in my mind , it's like the , the last , final holy grail to get punched in the nuts by God . Yeah .
Speaker 2So I Am . It was , it was very , a very beautiful experience for me . It was definitely the most intense that I've been through , with all the other things that I've tried as well .
Speaker 1But other other things were there .
Speaker 2Um , I've done like mushroom ceremonies and then ketamine and yeah things like that was the ketamine in a clinic , clinical sense , or was it just recreational ? These are all in like ceremonial sense . Okay not , for I don't . I don't really do the , the recreation I Like to do , like sober , like I really like to be out and about . I don't really drink , so I just I really enjoy . Yeah , for me it's still a new experience every time . I'm still like excited by it .
Speaker 1Yeah , I definitely think you probably have the better hand in terms of approaches to these experiences , being in a ceremony approach Versus not . I just talked yesterday actually , to a clinic in Austin , texas , to see about going and doing a Ketamine assisted therapy session . That would there a ceremonial approach , because I've done a lot of ketamine but I've never done ketamine . I've done a lot of ketamine in a personal therapeutic sense like done ketamine , sat quietly , darkness , I shut inward , we go , but never so . It's been ceremonial in that sense and respectful and intentional . And then I with MDMA and psychedelics , but but never like , never in the sense of communion with someone else through an experience together .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think it's important to do it in a ceremonial sense and so doing ayahuasca Was very impactful , for sure , and I've done it a few times since the whole time , the best one , though , just because I went in . The second time was tough because I went in with expectation , because I had such a good first one . But the second one , when it wasn't hitting as hard , I was like where are you Like ? Why aren't you giving me the thing ?
Speaker 1compared to the . You said you did mushrooms and ketamine compared to the two . How would you rank them in terms of intensity and difficulty ?
Speaker 2None of them have been difficult for me and I think that's because I don't . I don't consider things like Like I did my mushroom ceremony . I cried for four and a half hours , but I don't consider that bad like that . For me was Fantastic , that was a great trip . I felt really good afterwards and so I think , in terms of intensity , like with ayahuasca .
Speaker 2I didn't do it for the longest time because I heard those stories of like , well , you know , you shit your pants and a room full of people and what ? Yeah , yeah , that's just the experience for me , but with the shaman that I , that I did it with , he was like no , I've done it a lot and there's a , there's a .
Speaker 2He was like I've done it seven times now where I haven't purged at all , like no , like upset stomach and no throwing up , and usually people at least throw up and I think it really matters how you think you're going to react going into it . But I prepped correctly . And then also he was like the medicine is moving , like you know , when you're in it , you know You're being moved . And he was like so I think in the traditional ceremonies you sort of get up and you dance or you're or you're laying flat . And he was like you need to be in like a reclined position when you're like not looking at the other side of the body , not laying flat , because then it'll come up and you're not sitting , but you're sort of reclined . And he was like and then don't move , and then when you feel a wave of nausea , if you exhale it'll , it'll have a way to pass , because you , if you feel nausea , you try and like Don't do it . And he was like just exhale when you feel nauseous .
Speaker 1Don't fight it man , two things .
Speaker 2I reclined , um , I was just chill and I saw this little square because I thought I wasn't going to go in because he was like sometimes nothing happens . And it had been like 20 minutes and I was just listening to music , nothing was happening . And then I saw this little square and I thought , oh , is that a square ? And by the time I was done with that thought it was just like it had taken me out of my body and I was somewhere else . How ?
Speaker 1How transcendent was the experience in terms of being out of your body and Unable to like .
Speaker 2You weren't oriented in your normal sensory percept um , I'm trying to think of how I can describe it . So I think what people are worried about is that you will not be able to control your body , and that was what I had had worried about , because I was like , if I'm in a group of people with a weirdo pervert shaman and I have no awareness If it's happening to my body , then how can I protect myself ? Um , and really , you can be aware , you can just open your eyes and you will be aware . Like , yes , you're high , but I think it's like like being really , really drunk , which most of us have the experience of . Um , where you , you are there , you are aware of your body . It's just hazy , you know .
Speaker 2And so , but you are still aware of yourself and what's happening . So , in being in these psychedelic experiences , if you feel safe , you can just allow yourself , your consciousness to just go elsewhere , knowing that the body is safe and if you ever need to come back you can just Rise , yeah , and it'll take you right out of the trick , um , unless you forget how to open your eyes .
Speaker 1That that was . That was a like , an Intrusive thought that came up one time with uh with the psychedelic trip was like I can always open my eyes and then I remember thinking fuck , how do you open your eyes ? Is when are the eyes ? Where are the eyes ?
Speaker 2I had an eye mask on and I opened my eyes and I couldn't see anything . And then I was like , oh my god .
Speaker 1I'm .
Speaker 2I mean , I think that these , um , I do think the worry is there for a reason Because it is something sacred , it is something not to be taken lightly and it is something that that comes with a cost , and sometimes the cost is your ego , sometimes the cost is is something else . But I think that you should go in In reverence and being incredibly respectful of this thing , because it is . It can . It can kill you and it can heal you , and it's basically just going to you're giving Unfettered access to parts of yourself that you may not know are there . So if there is any part of you that is afraid of yourself or that you have not looked at , or slightly afraid of you , um , you should be afraid to go in . And if you can go in , knowing that you are a divine being and you will be met by divine beings and it's all love , um , and they are not trying to be harsh to you , um , then you will have a better experience .
Speaker 1Yeah , the fear is important . It's like the prerequisite . It's the thing that is going to be transmuted into bravery
Comparing Experiences With Various Psychedelics
Speaker 1and healing . You said it could kill you and it will heal you . You mean that like figuratively right , we're not talking about death by aya .
Speaker 2No , we're not .
Speaker 1We're not , we're not . So how would you ? She would say aya wask is is the most um , it was , it was the most like uh , uh , I don't know the most intense , and then followed up by , how would you , mushrooms and ketamine .
Speaker 2So I would say aya was definitely most intense , and then I've had um A mushroom and mdma ceremony , like sound . Together , yeah , uh , together , along with sound , um , and that would definitely be second , because that was definitely like . Yeah , that's awesome man wild um and then I would put at the bottom .
Speaker 1Put put a ketamine at the bottom , would you . How would you think about the ketamine experience ? It was a ceremonial thing . What ? How was it for you ?
Speaker 2It was a ceremonial thing I'm . I'm very one and done on ketamine because it it um for me , you know , and everyone reacts differently , but for me what it did is it felt like it separated the side of my brain so I I couldn't , or it separated like my brain and my heart , and so I couldn't . I couldn't access thought , I couldn't put thoughts together .
Speaker 1Absolutely .
Speaker 2I couldn't access my brain to have it like form thoughts , and I just realized then that I would have to rely on the intelligence of my heart . And that was very upsetting to me Because I and then it made me realize how much I rely on my head . So , you know , the lesson coming out of that was like the heart has intelligence too , it's just different and I block it because I am so much in my head . So it was a useful . It was a useful lesson , but I've learned it , and so I don't think I need to go back . Yeah , I don't know .
Speaker 1I'm like from a because I could see ketamine . Maybe the research shows that ketamine from a , like a , of a neuroplasticity standpoint , helps to rewrite the brain , the brain for certain things , but like for an ex . For , in terms of experiential like , ketamine has Definitely , definitely has given me some very , very unique Experiences in terms of the feeling of dissociation from thought , the body , etc . But never like like meditating on MDMA or meditating on a psychedelic is is like Transformative in an opening in a way , and ketamine just feels like I understand what it'd be like to be a broom well , I feel like the other ones , like I feel like Aya and MDMA , mushrooms and everything .
Speaker 2I feel like they are a more Textured experience and I feel like ketamine was a very sort of one-note experience .
Speaker 1Sure and so .
Speaker 2I didn't feel as as transformative or impactful . It was more like an annoying lesson . Um , and you know , and maybe it's me , maybe I was the one that did it wrong , and that's possible , more likely um , but knowing also how , what I learned , and how it affects me to Go into like a ceremonial mushroom Ceremony versus like ketamine in a clinical setting , or even ketamine in a ceremonial setting , I know that I just I've seen so much Um from these other medicines so I am working with those .
Speaker 1Quite interesting man . I definitely look forward to doing ayahuasca at some point in life and uh it , I don't know , Maybe it's not , is maybe it's not the um obviously to be respected , but Maybe it's not the beast that I have put it in my head that it is .
Speaker 2I , I think , work through your pre-conscience , so talking to notions of it , and also know that you're going to have your own experience of it and your experience is going to be based off of what you believe about it . So take other people's consideration less into it , other people's stories less than the consideration and more . Start to figure out your own thoughts around the thing . And then no-transcript of it and also know that you're gonna have your own experience of it and your experience is gonna be based off of what you believe about it .
Speaker 2So take other people's consideration less into it , other people's stories less into consideration and more start to figure out your own thoughts around the thing .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And then , once you do it , then we'll have a whole other . We'll have a whole other .
Speaker 1I have to say I really , really meant it earlier when I said you are a hero . You fucking rock , and I hope so much that people listening to this conversation together that they'll feel inspired to not leave their religion or their cold or do this or the other , but to just generally look at your life and ask yourself what's your relationship like with the divine , and is it one that feels serving , is it one that feels beautiful and empowering , or is it one that feels the opposite ?
Speaker 2Absolutely no . So true , because your view of the divine is your view of your place in the world .
Speaker 1So wonderfully
Thanking Angel, Encouraging to Keep Moving
Speaker 1said . Angel , thank you so much for spending time with me today on this episode , and thank you to everyone for listening and checking it out . If you're listening to this show on a podcast platform , don't forget to rate it , and if you're watching on YouTube , yo what's up . Click the like button and the subscribe button . That would be much appreciated and we will see you later . Anything you want to tell the people , angel , Keep moving forward .
Speaker 2Wherever it is that you are , even if you are in the best place you've ever been , there is still something in front of you , so take a step forward .
Speaker 1Camp for the night and keep going . Yeah , thank you so much .
Speaker 2Thank you , thank you .