Interview with playwright Horatio Holloway

In this episode, we talk to Horatio (Raish) Holloway about his new play, I can't stop the Loneliness, which is coming up at both the Union Theatre and in the summer at this year's Camden Fringe. Raish shares his thoughts on getting your work on stage and building a creative community - whilst juggling a playwriting MA and other creative commitments. 

I Can't Stop the Loneliness takes place on the 19th May at the Union Theatre - book here: https://uniontheatre.biz/show/i-cant-stop-the-loneliness/

Then from 7 - 13th August at the Hen & Chickens for the Camden Fringe - book here: https://camdenfringe.com/events/?&venue=28

Transcript

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welcome to Playwriting Real Life, the podcast from London Playwrights, where we talk about all the challenges playwrights face living in the world today. In this episode, I speak to Raish Holloway, whose new play has got a couple of productions coming up, including this year's Camden Fringe Hi, welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm good, thanks. Yourself? Good, thank you. Would you like to just start by telling us a bit about yourself? sure, yeah. hi, everyone listening. My name's Resh- which is short for Horatio, but that's a bit of a mouthful. so Resh works. I am, 21. I'm a student currently on the MA Playwriting course at RADA, in London. and yeah, I think that's- that's most of the, current events, I think, about me. Great, and so you're must be very busy at the moment on your, w- on your MA. Reasonably, yeah. so I, obviously the MA in terms of contact hours is only, a couple of days a we- week, but, I also work 25, 25 hours a week-ish. and, work on some other theater projects and, some other, creative- creative outlets and things like that, so in the end it ends up making for quite a full calendar, which is really nice. I don't really know how to not have that, I think. no, it's really lovely. It's a real privilege just to be able to, be in- in such close proximity to lots of really wonderful people, in my life at the moment. so yeah, no, it's, very cool. Yeah. That's exciting. And then are you working on a specific project in your MA? So we have two main projects that we work on in addition to lots of kind of subsidiary projects and experiments. you'll write lots and lots of little scripts or, we do quite a few sort of the theatrical equivalent of book reports, work on feedback, on our dramaturgical skills. so there's lots of mini- mini projects, as it were, and then we have two main plays that we're working on. I don't wanna say in the background, because it does intertwine to some degree with a lot of the work that we do. but, two plays that we're expected to devote a lot of our- our free time to, effectively. Each of which is managed by a different, teacher, which I- I think is probably- Not the word that you're meant to use once you're a master's student, but I still think of teachers. Yeah, it's quite funny actually, because we met when I came to visit you on your MA and talk a bit about the work at London Playwrights, and the course leader, Paul, was my teacher back on my MA. 19 years ago now, But it was interesting to meet you there and to hear about the MA, and it's very exciting to be doing a play writing MA, I think. But also, while we were there, you talked a lot about the other projects you've got going on, and you've got a couple of plays coming up, which is why I thought you'd be a great person to speak to on the podcast to find out what your plays are and what you're doing with them, and also how you've got them on stage. So would you like to tell us about, a bit about those two plays? Sure. so the main play external to RADA or external to any sort of specific institution at the moment, is a play I'm putting on called I Can't Stop the Loneliness. so that's named after a song of the same title with, all caps and two exclamation points, by a Japanese artist called Anri from the 1980s, and it's in this genre called city pop, which, is this incredibly u- upbeat, almost saccharine sweet level of positivity, but, with often quite macabre, or at the very least, melancholic lyrics, of which that song is, I think, the best example. because it's, it is all about being unable to stop a crushing feeling of loneliness, but it is an incredibly, bombastic sort of jazz fusion song. so it was that contrast that I found very inspiring. and it's a sort of tonal contrast that I've wanted to take into this play. So in a sentence, the I Can't Stop the Loneliness is about two sort of salary men, which is, a sort of the Japanese portmanteau for basically any kind of white-collar worker, in the corporate world, who meet in a karaoke box or like a sort of karaoke room, in the context of a really miserable, corporate organized fun work do. and they're the only two who show up. So everyone else has decided obviously to do something better. but these two have shown up, Henry from the London department and Isao from, the Tokyo, the department in Japan. and there is, murder next door, which actually is inspired by true events. It's the only thing in the play that's true, but it's in- modeled after something called the Karaoke Killings, which were unbelievably two separate events in Manila in the Philippines, of karaoke patrons being, shot at the very least, for singing specifically My Way by Frank Sinatra, very badly. So anyway, that, that happens in the periphery, as it were, to Henry and Isao's mutual boss, and because of that, they're locked in effectively this karaoke box indefinitely while the police, cultivate a crime scene, collect evidence, et cetera. So the rest of the play is very much all within this one room. and, it's a sort of burgeoning friendship basically, between these two characters learning about each other and revealing a lot of secrets through their exploration of the music in this room. and the sort of fundamental tension, at least the one that I'm trying to cultivate, is the sense of why they've shown up. that everyone else clearly has decided this is horrendously lame, and they don't wanna, they don't wanna attend, but these two have come, and it becomes apparent that both of them are running from something. and it's the sort of tension of how far they'll go to avoid that. and yeah, that's basically the play. It's only short. It's only like a sort of 60-minute fringe length sort of thing. and very simple plot-wise. It's not hard to keep up. and yeah, that's the play. Great. And so when's this play going to be on? So it's on in, in two iterations. so- Okay the ever so slightly cut version of it, so a 50, sort of 50, 55-minute version rather than a 60, 65-minute version, is on in a couple of weeks. I don't know by the time this podcast goes out, or it might be in a couple of days. it's on the 19th of May, at the Union Theatre in Southwark, which I'd never been to before, before getting offered a place in this sort of new writing festival that they're doing. and it's a really beautiful theater. It's, has the model of being within an underground station, and it's very rustic and imposing and, still quite intimate. so I'm r- really looking forward to performing there. And it's part of, It's being put on by a company called Off Mainstage, who, Yeah for those who don't know, I didn't until I applied to this, do, new writing, and this is part of a new writing, festival. So I'm on My show's on alongside, quite a few others, a handful of other shows. and then it's all judged as part of a competition. and the winner of a certain award, then gets a longer run at another theater- Oh, okay and a paid run as well. so that's the sort of, the gold at the end of the rainbow. but it's still a privilege just to go on at all, so I'm really looking forward to that. as are my cast, who are from n- none of whom knew each other before this started. Oh, okay. Which is really nice. So we're all strangers. not to me, but to each other. And then we've also got a run at the Hen and Chickens Theatre, iconic, iconic pub theater spot, in Islington. Yeah. in, as part of the Camden Fringe. That's in August. Great. Okay, so you've got two... Yeah, brilliant, you've got two runs. And, so what was the process then going to, to the first run with Off Ma- Off Main Stage, is it? And what was the process with Off Main Stage? Did you submit your work and then they say,"Yes, you've got a spot," and do they produce it for you? Or is it a case that you've had to produce and find your cast and do all of that? it's largely self-produced, i- in that sort of sense. To be fair, I was in a bit of a unique spot, just because one of the characters in my play, ha- the casting provisions are relatively niche. and they were a bit nervous about whether they'd be able to find someone, so they asked me if I could do the casting, process independently. Yeah. but other shows did have some casting done for them. So you can apply as an actor, send in your CV, whatever. They build a huge spreadsheet, and then it goes to the directors or the writers, or often it's the same person, and they can select, auditionees. so Off Main Stage have been really useful in regards to helping out with that for most plays. Um, I part- I was just a particular case. But yeah, they, they, they help a lot with the producing stuff. They give you a venue. Um, they've got a really good relationship, I think, with Union. And then, yeah, it's like a one-night only thing. Uh- Yeah so I'm glad they're doing a Camden Fringe run,'cause otherwise I think it'd be a very hard sell to get my actors to rehearse as much as I'm making them. Um- Yes. Yeah. Actually, that's a good thing, isn't it?'Cause usually if it's for one night, you'd be looking at a very short rehearsal. So that's- Yeah actually quite nice that you're rehearsing with a view to, to it being on later on. Yeah. So I guess it I guess it's kind of more worthwhile to do that longer stretch of rehearsals. And so what... Has the play changed since you submitted it? Did you submit the play and then that's how it's going on, or was there a process involved where you got feedback and edited? I, I, I didn't get explicit feedback in, as a part of the submission process. I believe that I'm gonna definitely make changes based on the feedback I get from this show prior to the Camden Fringe run, so I'm gonna be- Uh, very annoying, uh, and asked everyone what they thought and probably, like, asked to make a Google Form or something. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I, I didn't get any feedback as part of the initial part of the process. But, uh, there have been sort of edits and rediscoveries just as a sort of by-product of getting it on its feet and working through it with the actors. Particularly because it's such an intimate play, there's so much sort of character cultivation that, that you do after casting. So I've made little changes on the basis of sort of my actors' very e- specific interpretations of the part, which has been really, really fun, um, rather than being super prescriptive in every sort of facet. Uh, there's been, like, little edits in terms of the slight language used or things that just sort of try and correspond to the approach the actor comes to it with. Yeah. So that's been really fun, and they've not been, they've not been anal about that at all. It's like little changes are totally fine. So yeah, very lucky in, in that regard. Yeah. That's great, isn't it?'Cause there's a lot of value in that, isn't there? I mean, I always say to writers that I'm working with, when the play is at a certain point, it's just so valuable to work with actors because you will get ideas for editing. Some lines, you know, don't work when they're up on their feet, and obviously that can It can all depend as well on the actors involved and their interpretation of the role that can really- Mm-hmm bring a new dimension to the piece. So it's great if you get the opportunity to kind of do that- Yeah and then maybe edit the work off the back of that. Um, and that sounds also really exciting. So you've got this coming up, and then Camden Fringe. That, that's very exciting as well. So how did you get involved with that? So, um, I'd Uh, that's a really good question. I, I'd heard about Camden Fringe, uh, like, last year, uh,'cause I heard a couple of people I knew who'd done it, but I'd only ever done Edinburgh b- before then which obviously is, is the more sort of storied sort of Fringe of the various many Fringes. Uh, but in the process of applying to Edinburgh, I just realized it just wasn't gonna be financially viable because it's not just the initial venue costs which are very steep at Fringe, it's also living there, uh, and all of the sort of- Yeah yeah, just living costs, which I, I know is, is not gonna be news to anyone. But I think there was a period maybe in the past where the concept of turning a profit was at least feasible if you sold well, but I think the best-case scenario I found in Edinburgh was kinda, was breaking even. And even then- Mm. It was- Yeah that would've needed to be, like, every day sold out, and, you know, I, I, I wouldn't have been I didn't know at the time that I'd be coming with any sort of, uh, preparation, so I wouldn't be coming in with reviews and all that sort of thing. And I also spoke to some venues, uh, like Pleasance and Underbelly at, at Edinburgh, who effectively said that at the period that I was trying to that I was applying, which is in, like, January and February, uh, that they, by and large, really were focusing on shows which, uh, were running for the whole Fringe- The 3rd to the 28th of August, whatever it is. Because, because, uh, which makes sense in the sense that you- they have time to build traction and word of mouth and all that kind of thing. And, uh, in, in a sense that I think they were hesitant as a result to program anything that couldn't go for the whole month, but I, I didn't have anywhere near the money to be doing that. So I started to look at other fringes, and I thought that I live in London, uh, at the moment anyway, uh, and most of my cast are based in, in and around the London area that I'd already got for Fringe. So we decided to pivot to do it in Camden instead. Particularly because it still feels, like, a bit surreal to have any kind of a play on in London. Yeah. And I, I, I have to imagine that eventually that, that feeling might go away, but as of right now, to me, that's still im- like, so exciting to be able to do. Uh, have a venue and, and that's so close to home. So we decided to go with Camden instead, uh, do a little bit of a shorter run, and then with the hope that if all goes well, maybe we can try and extend it. Uh, it- it's- Yeah. That feels so presumptuous, but just things like for the Camden Fringe run, probably inviting theaters or, or, you know, all of the theaters- Yeah will have like,"Oh, send us an email," and you always wonder- Absolutely, yeah how feasible that is. But, um, but I'm definitely gonna be sending out those emails at the very least, uh- Yeah, absolutely one day. Ho- hopefully maybe- Yeah something comes of that. It's a very cheap play, uh, in regards to it's all in one room and everything. Although it's the more I think about it, the more props I realize I need. Uh, so- Yes. I, I say that with more confidence than it deserves really. But yeah, so that's been the, that was the positive applying to Camden Fringe. I applied through Eventron, uh, who aren't sponsoring me or anything. I wish. It, that's just the platform for a lot of the fringes as well. Okay, you're right. So which is quite convenient. So if you're applying to, I don't know, like Durham Fringe, say or, or some of the Edinburgh venues you can also sort of re-utilize a lot of the work you've done to apply for Camden or vice versa, uh, for- Mm-hmm it's through the same platform in most cases. So that was very, uh, convenient. Yeah, that's great. That's, um, really interesting to hear,'cause I think, you know, I know a lot of writers who they, obviously, you know, as playwrights everyone wants their work on stage, but it's interesting sometimes to hear about all the different opportunities that are out there because you think Edinburgh Fringe but the financial constraints around that and the cost of it in terms of, as you say, it's not just putting the play on, it's the living costs. Mm-hmm. It's such a big thing, and it's not accessible for, you know, so many people. Not even just from a financial point of view, but also times, uh, c- time constraints, and it's obviously brilliant if you can do that, but it's so great to know that there are other- options as well. Um- Yeah and actually by now putting your play on in London, like you say, you can invite people from theaters, and hopefully they'll come. But there are- Yeah you know, the theaters, they do have, they do, that their reading teams do have people who that- that's part of their job to come, and- Yeah, yeah you know, they do respond when they can. They, they want to find new writers who they would like to work with. And we did not, uh, a couple of years ago we did a series called The Literary Series where we interviewed literary managers from theaters- Mm and that was one of the things that came up, that actually they do come to stuff. Obviously they can't go to everything, so it's gonna be, it's not always gonna be a yes, but, you know, you can get those invites out and hopefully get as many people there as you can. Um, but yeah, I think it's interesting what you say as well, you know, so you can have a small budget show and have a small amount of actors, low production costs, but the cost always goes up a little bit. So I think that perhaps for writers- Okay a good piece of advice is to work within your budget. Don't bankrupt yourself to put your play on at Edinburgh- Yeah because there are other options as well. Indeed, yeah. And i- in any context, it's always gonna cost more than you expect, as you said a little- Yes too. So if you m- if you're looking at Edinburgh and thinking,"If I stretch, I can just make it," uh, that probably means that there is no sort of limit to your, th- th- sorry, rather that there is a, a limit to your pliability. And you will find that, uh, in Edinburgh. Which is also to say that I think that a specific kind of fringe might like to act as if it has a sort of hegemony on, on exposure. Uh, but I, I don't think that's necessarily true. I think if something's good, hopefully then it, um, th- there's viability there for sort of s- upscaling, yes. I'd also say the thing I've found really fun about this process is that even though it, it, this is quite a basic show in terms of plot, set ev- most things that materially demand a higher budget, actors as well, what have you it, it, I wouldn't say it's a particularly ordinary show. Uh, and I think I've found that really, uh, a, a really fun process is thinking I can put on a, a cheap show, but it doesn't have to be like a two-hander kitchen sink about living in London, your 20s kinda thing. It'll tending to be feedback again. Um, or, or what have you. It the ideas can... And I, I've seen some shows like that as well which have been very simplistic in terms of execution, but much more imaginative than me, in terms of theme and world building. Uh, and I found that very inspiring'cause there was a period where I thought like,"Is it all gonna have to be really strict realism?" You know, is that the only way that you can start, start a career? And it, it's- I, I'm not an expert on it at all, but it's seeming increasingly the case that there's a whole range of sort of genres you can play with, even within these sort of intimate, small contexts. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's interesting because I think some of the writers perhaps that I work with might think if- they m- they might say things like,"My play, it's, it's too big for a fringe venue. It's too big for pub theater in London," or,"It's too complex in terms of the design, staging." And that is something that I always say. I think the main thing I say to watch out for if, if you do wanna self-produce or you know, get someone to put your play on, on a very small budget, is obviously big cast sizes. Yeah, yeah. And also, if you're working in, if you're working in a tiny theater and some of those theaters across the Camden Fringe are, are really, really small- Yeah um, you- you're gonna struggle if you've got an overwhelming number of bodies on the stage, and I think that... And obviously then the cost of rehearsal and everything, that spirals quite quickly. But I think in terms of creativity and how imaginative you can be with that, I don't feel like writers should be restrained because- Mm-hmm you could write in something that sounds a bit out there or, you know, that's gonna be tricky to have on stage, but actually you can then work creatively and figure something out where that works. And I think as we know, when we see plays on in fringe venues, the... We use our imaginations anyway, so amazing- Mm-hmm things can be done with more stuff, you know, and on a, on a tiny budget. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and amazing stuff often is done, uh, which, uh, I, I, I work at a theater as well, so you sort of see all of these productions coming in and out, and th- there's so much. There's a sort of palpable sense of experimentation with a lot of them, and even though some of them are less successful than others, I, I always think it's still more fun to try, so I, I always have a lot of admiration. And I think it's very easy to underestimate an audience in regards to are they gonna have the sort of focus and devotion to, to follow you in your world-building if they're expecting a small show. Um, but I, I think that people in a way are, are, are, are perhaps even more willing to lend themselves to ideas when there's less in regards to, like, exp- like, uh, explicitly dramatic elements that distracts them, if it's just mainly acting and writing. It, it's funny that you mention about cast sizes. So this is a bit of a tangent, I apologize but- Mm-hmm it's just I was thinking'cause that's, uh, that's something we get a lot or rather be reminded of, about not, not doing big cast plays. Particularly when you're starting out. And it's been a real challenge for me actually, because a lot of the stuff I wrote when I was at uni in the last couple of years were very, w- would, would've been put on the ambitious end of the spectrum, pragmatically speaking. Um, and we managed to pull them off, but it was difficult, you know. Uh, we were lucky that I was able to perform some of my work in, in bigger theaters, uh, at university, but if, if I hadn't been able to, I, you know, literally would not have been able to fit that cast. But like, one- once I came to Rado, I think the reality of that really set in about small casts. But I was, uh, at we went to the National to see, uh, Le Liaison, sorry, I'm gonna butcher the French very poorly. Uh, Le Liaison Dangere- is it Dangereuses? Um, oof, I, uh, I apologize to anyone who knows the answer to that. I, I keep butchering it whenever I try. Uh, but anyway- Yeah that production at the National. And that's at the Littleton Theater, which is- Yeah actually not as big as the Olivier, but is still pretty big. Yeah. Uh, and they had a lot of supporting actors and dancers and things, uh, which in terms of, plot, weren't strictly necessary. But because they had that space, it was almost as if they felt sort of a proxemic pressure to fill it in some capacity to kind of warrant it. And I, I think that if one thinks similarly about cast sizes in regards to small theaters- Yeah it's like very kind of explicitly how do I imagine this putting on what kind of space, and how am I really gonna exploit what that space does to people? I suppose in the sense that the most uncomfortable or affected I've ever been by a play has been in small theaters when there's someone right on you. And it, it I think that can become a blessing rather than a curse i- if you have an idea that really exploits that sort of intimacy both between characters and then within this small world you have to sort of necessarily focus your world building and your plot into. Yeah, I think so. I think I think it's interesting. I think with the small casts, I mean, I suppose when we're all just starting out, we wanna write plays that people are gonna put on, and that they're gonna be able to put on. So it's a fine line, isn't it, between being restrictive if you're writing and you know you have to have You really want, you know, to tell your story, you really need all these characters. Particularly I find, um- With writers that I'm working with, particularly historical plays, plays based- Mm on real-life events, they tend to have those bigger casts because there's a tendency to want to include all of the people who were involved in that situation. Or if it's something historical, you know, if it's a, I don't know about a, a, a king or queen, you know, you're gonna have people around them, and they're gonna have servants. And that's the... That's where the... It's tricky, isn't it? That line between restricting yourself creatively but also writing something that perhaps it's gonna be easy for someone to pick up and put on. Um- Yeah so it's, um, it's definitely a tricky balance, but I think there's also a skill in writing those smaller cast plays- Mm-hmm and being economical with characters, because quite often I read drafts of plays, and I think, actually, they could g- some of those characters can go. And if you- Yeah can find a creative solution, you can be inspired by that. You know, you can... Sometimes the restraints can actually inspire you and make you, force you to be even more creative. Um, whereas I think- Yeah if you know you're writing to that big space, you can be like,"Oh, yeah, I'll bring in a, you know, I'll bring in a bit of a crowd there, and I'll fill up the stage." Mm-hmm. Do you need all of those characters? And what does it do to the play when you have too many? What does it do to the audience if you have too many?'Cause I know that when I'm reading a play with a massive cast sometimes it's very difficult to follow. You have to go back- Yeah and reread it and remember who's who. And I find that when I'm watching plays with large casts as well, I have to think- Yeah especially if you get... Sometimes you get people who look quite similar, and you're kind of like,"Oh, hang on a minute." Yes. Yeah."Who was that?" Particularly in a bigger theater if, if there's more of a distance and you're kind of having to- Yes squint, as I always am. I, um, I, I, I think that it can be a real barrier to sort of empathy as well, to a degree. Or- Yeah it's not quite the right word. I suppose, like, emotional investment with a character. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're sort of having to sort of hold all of these different identities as sort of people that you hope have some sort of level of authenticity, which then necessarily requires some level of depth, and therefore you don't wanna have archetypes, but then you're trying to kind of really get to the bottom of all of these characters, and it becomes quite overwhelming. And I think in cases like that, it can be, it can be difficult for an audience member, even if they can sort of logically follow all of the different moving parts, to really root for a character or feel that they're sort of emotionally invested in the drama. In the same way that you know, I, I always tend-- I have a tendency to really overcomplicate things narrative-wise, um, and it's one of the things I'm really trying to work on at the moment, to, to not, uh, to not conjure that sort of the same effect of if an audience- Yeah is trying to... In the same sense that if I'm writing a plot that's too contrived, and the audience is spending all of their sort of cognitive energy- Trying to understand what's going on. They've not got any space left to empathize or to relate the characters to a, to a sort of an emotionally charged reality they're closer to, because they're so They're s- just trying to catch up. And I suppose you could think of casts in the same way. Yeah. Out of interest, a- as, like, as a sort of dramaturg and, and when you're giving feedback to those sort of big plays, how do you help Are there any kind of techniques you use to help people scale things down and, and focus them maybe on a more intimate story, even within a bigger scope? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think I will always talk to writers, particularly if they're writing something historical, you know, what's the heart of the story? Why are you writing this st- I think it's that question, why are you writing this story n- Mm why are you w- why are you writing this play now? Yeah. Um, what's the connection you have to it? And there will be an essence, you know, that the writer will say,"Actually, I r- I really wanna write about this historical period because I felt really passionate about this thing that happened." Mm-hmm. And it's always a human story in there. There's something at the heart of it, and I think that is how you scale the story down. You tell the story that's You tell what's at the heart of the story, not the whole situation, and have to kind of have every single aspect. And I think I always say that when people are writing historical plays or plays based on real-life events- Mm-hmm you know, what is the story that you really wanna tell? You don't have to tell the whole thing. You can really scale that down. I think that's one thing, and I really agree with you on the empathy and connection thing when we've got too many characters. So that's another thing. It's like, who do you want us to empathize with? And I think that comes down to as well sort of having in your mind what you want the audience ex- to experience- and working backwards from there. So not second-guessing what you think the audience will feel, but thinking as a playwright what am I trying to achieve in the theater? What do I want the audience to think or feel? Which bits of the play do I really want them to connect with?" Because they're not gonna be able to do that with sort of 20 characters on stage or, like you said, a really complicated plot. So if, for example, you want the audience to come out of the theater having worked really hard to join the dots and connect the plot, and that was part of the excitement of the play, then perfect. Mm. But if you wanted to have them a, a deep, have them have a deep emotional connection, then you're gonna have to do something different. So I think working backwards from I think working with those two things, actually, working backwards from what you want the audience to experience, but also what you as a playwright really wanna write about, and what is actually firing you up about that story. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that really helps to narrow things down and edit things and streamline and just get rid of all the stuff that you don't need.. I'm always interested in, in cases where people talk about bringing your personal charge into a story. Yeah. Uh, so even if it's not sort of explicitly autobiographical, it's like you say, why do you, why are you the, not just the right person to write this? Because I think sometimes that's quite a difficult question to answer. You can kind of start to- Yeah at least I always start to question every aspect of, of myself when someone asks me that. But which is good to a degree, obviously, to, to, to reflect in that regard, but also it's tricky on the spot. But more, I, I suppose urgently, why, why, why did you want to, as you said is such an interesting question. Yeah. But what I'm, I'm wondering is as a sort of a dramaturg, in your experience, how do you help people find that personal charge and imbue their stories with that without the stories feeling excessively autobiographical and narcissistic? How- Yes how do you prevent it becoming a self-insert sort of character in a self-insert play? Yeah. Does that- I think that's a very good question, and that is, that reaction playwrights often give to that kind of, that question, you know, why are you writing this play and what fires you up to write it? I think you're right. I think that often gets confused with kind of why are you qualified to write this play, you know, could someone else write a better version of it than you? And that's really not what I mean by that question. Mm. I mean, what is it that's giving you... It doesn't have to be your personal experience, and I think that's what sometimes gets mixed up, that if you're writing, you know, the old phrase, write what you know. Yeah, yeah. I don't think that means that you have to know... You don't h- have to live, lived through something or know... You don't have to be an expert on it. But I think it's more about personal connection. So what is it about that idea that really fires you up enough to potentially dedicate maybe even years of your life to writing this play, you know? Yeah. I know people who have spent years writing one play, In the sense that it might get put on for a couple of nights, and then it's gonna grow again and change, and it's a b- Yeah it's a long process, isn't it? It takes a lot of commitment and a lot of motivation. So you're gonna need to be writing about something you're passionate about. But I don't think that needs to be confused with it being autobiographical and about something that actually lived through. But I think it needs to, I think it needs to be interrogated, and you need to get to the bottom of what is it about that thing w- you wanna write about that really inspires you. And I think doing some work, one of the exercises that I do in a creative writing workshop that I run is thinking about what kind of playwright you wanna be, and what are the big ideas that you wanna write about. Um- Yeah because that will be probably what connects you to an idea. So for example, if it's social injustice, and that really fires you up, and that makes you really, really angry, when you're looking at these events that you wanna write about, that's probably gonna be what you're getting at by writing that. Because we're not... If we're writing about a real-life event as well, we're not writing a, it's not a documentary. We're not telling everything. We're not giving all the information. We're showing it through the lens of, through our lens as writers, I suppose. Um- Yeah so I think that's, um, I think that's what I always try and say to people, try and figure out what it is about this particular thing that is really motivating you to write about it, and it might be something like injustice, or maybe it just resonates with an emotion that you've felt before or a memory that you have. But there's something there, isn't there? Because that's why, you know, you might see something on... You might see a documentary on TV and really wanna write a play about that, and you go and do loads of research. I might see it and think,"Oh, that was boring. I'm gonna watch something else." So it's, um- Yeah you know, but what was it about it that made you really intrigued and interested in, in pursuing that further? So I think that it's just kind of getting to the bottom of why you're so interested in something. Yeah. Y- you mentioned that you had exercises that, that might help people locate that motivation. Could you just tell me a little bit more about that? Yes. So that's one of the big things. So w- I do, um, as part of London Playwrights, do lots of workshops. One of them is creative inspiration, and sometimes I've run this as a workshop for beginners, playwriting beginners who maybe haven't come to many workshops before. And what I think, one of the first exercise that I will start with is big ideas, and firstly, what d- what kind of playwright do you wanna be? And I get people to write down what kind of playwright they wanna be, and they don't share this because obviously if you're gonna share this, you're not gonna write down,"I wanna be, um, you know, the, the best playwright that ever lived, and I'm-" D- I'm, you know, I'm like whoever, you know, you're inspired by. So I always get people to do this privately, but write, if you could be like anyone, or whose work do you like, and what kind of playwright do you wanna be? Where do you want your work to be on stage? And all of those big questions. And then following on from that, I like to look at big ideas. So what are the big things that fire you up as a writer? Mm-hmm. And we do a lot of kind of just kind of working out ideas around that really. That's kind of where I start as a very broad kind of inspiration sort of exercise. That's really interesting in, in regards to i, I always imagine that in, in a context a lot of people, myself probably included, would have not ready-made answers to avoid the real answers, but like some kind of a barrier or a, or a sort of defense system. Like, what motivates you? And you're like,"Oh, oh, oh," and sort of say this or that, and then in reality it, it's something that one's never really been totally cognizant of, uh, i- to, to that level of, of depth at any rate. I think when you're doing these exercises, that's why it's really good to, to tell people when they're gonna be sharing and when they won't be required to share. Yes. Because lots of people write when they need to share in a group, I think exactly what you just said, that you'd be panicking that I need to, I need to have an answer that sounds okay and doesn't sound- too out there, and doesn't sound like I'm full of myself or you know, or, um, or you might not be able to think of anything because you're being put on the spot. So I think- just to do that using free writing rather than being put on the spot verbally in a group to talk about that is great. And I would say that to that, to writers to do that regularly because it's gonna change. Yeah what you want to write at one particular time in your life, that might be very different three, five, 10 years later. I mean, perspectives on things change. Mm-hmm. Um, so I would say as a, as a regular kind of thing to practice To, to do that, to think, right, what kind of writer do I wanna be? You know, what's really, what are the big ideas that I've been seeing at the moment that are really, really sort of firing something up in me? You know, what do I, when I read the news what do I really feel passionate about? And just check in with that regularly, because then I think it helps you to Also, it helps you to focus on the projects that you actually really wanna do, not maybe the ones that you think you should be writing, which- Yeah I think is really important as well, like I said, with the commitment level of writing. And as we know as playwrights, you don't always get that gratification. So you could write something for years, then you might get a rejection. So you really need to have, be writing about stuff that you want to write about to keep that motivation going. Otherwise, so easy just to give up. Yeah. Y- I, I, I think it has to sort of come to a point where you can really enjoy the fact that it exists regardless of what happens to it. Yes. Yeah. That's something that I've been thinking about recently, just because even, even being at RADA, and I, I've been, I've been lucky that I've managed to, to sort of take little sort of steps hopefully in a direction I wanna go, but even in, in such a context, it is still a story of rejection most of the time, right? Just invariably. A- and because of that, I remember realizing sort of this year of thinking I really need to separate external validation from my sort of capacity to do this, uh, because it's, it's just a bottomless pit.'Cause even, even if you win three Oscars, you think,"Oh, they were be- it, it was a weak year," I did, I was in a doc- you know, I, oh, I got it because of some bias on the committee or whatever. Like, you can- you can sort of d- if you try hard enough, you can devalidate anything. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, if, if the sort of fundamental premise is a negative one, and particularly I think it's more likely to be like that if you're always relying on, on sort of acceptance or, or, or actualization in order to feel satisfied with something. Then there's a play- Yeah I'm not gonna name it specifically'cause I've, I actually, it's in the midst of being submitted to a few things, so. Uh, th- but I've When I was doing the submission, I, I made a really sort of concerted effort with, I don't know, moderate success, I'm hoping that, oh, I'll get a little bit better at e- it each year. Um, but just to think, okay, I'm submitting it to this theater, but I'm really happy this exists and that even if it never gets put on again, um, or never goes past the first reading, this was, and this play in particular is a very personal story. Uh, and I was thinking, well, I'm, I'm really glad that I've come to a point where I feel this is of submittable quality, uh, comparatively obviously to Not to compare to other people's work, but specifically to previous drafts. And I, I think- I, I, I found it very important to me to try my best to find some sort of peace in that, I think. Um- Yeah but I think that's a lot easier to do if you're, if you're doing the play you want to do rather than the play you think you ought to,'cause it's no longer... if you do the play you really think you always should've done and that would, and that would be successful, then your satisfaction or happiness with it is always necessarily gonna be correlated to its external success. Whereas if it's- Yeah you really wanted to do, you just did something you wanted to do. And obviously everything else is a wonderful bonus, but it, it wasn't defined inherently by other people's re- recipients that- yeah that you shouldn't. Yeah I think, uh, you know, I think that's right, and I think that's something I see actually in terms of, for example, writers who wanna maybe get their play on at the Royal Court- or somewhere like that or wanna win one of the big competitions. And of course we all do. We all do. But then when they get that no, and they get a series of those noes from the big places, it's kind of, ugh, my play's rubbish, I'm just not gonna do anything with this. You know, because they wanted that validation, which we all want, and it's horrible to get rejection. But I do think the writers who persevere, um, and perhaps they do persevere because they've let go of that... You know,'cause after a while you get enough rejections to, you get thicker skin around that, and it's kind of like- Yeah"Actually, I'm just gonna put the play on anyway," or,"I'm gonna do one..." I think the writers that I'm seeing get most success at the moment will be like,"Okay, I got a no from the Royal Court, but I really feel invested in this play. I'm passionate about it. I'm gonna put it on. I haven't got a big budget. I haven't got much money. I'm gonna put it on for one night." Yeah. And then they do that one night, and then what inevitably happens after that is they, next time, they think,"Actually, do you know what? I can put this on for two nights." Mm-hmm, yeah. And this is what I'm seeing so much. It can be a really long process. Um, a couple of years on, it's on for five weeks. So I think- Yeah, yeah um, and I think just the writers who perhaps have got that in them to just go through that really long process are probably- Yeah the ones who are like, you know, this is valid anyway. The one night is valid. Even the feedback discussion, we do table readings at London Playwrights, and just even- Yes being in the room with actors and having actors actually validate your work and talk about, talk about your characters- Mm-hmm in great detail, even that experience is something. So I think the writers who see it like that rather than, okay, it's just a big yes or it's just nothing, um, and let it, you know, let it take it to heart, I think that they're the ones who seem to get more success anyway, so... And I think there's a freedom in that, isn't there, if you can write not worrying too much if you're gonna get- Yeah a no. If you don't want it too badly kind of thing always seems to actually mean you're more likely to get it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think just the, the chipping away, I think it's not- It's not glamorous, and it's not it's not as exciting, is it, as the story of an overnight success. Mm-hmm. But actually the writers that I'm seeing get the most work on are the ones, they're just d- they're just going out and doing that. And it might be on a really small scale. It might be actors in a really small theater rehearsing for a couple of hours doing a rehearsed reading. But they're- Yes getting their work on. So that's, And because as well the s- the high number of submi- submissions to the bigger theaters and the big competitions- Yeah you're almost i- it- it's impossible, isn't it, to sometimes- Yeah you know, your chances are so slim. Yeah, it's such a high number, and it, it seems to get higher every time. I don't know whether- Yeah the kind of unprecedented number of submissions is just a sort of buzzword that people use. But in e- in, in every job application seemingly in the world at the moment and in every theater place as well, it's, it's certainly not getting easier to get stuff on, um, or to separate yourself from the crowd. So i- I- I always think it's a, it's a funny sort of irony really that s- a lot of the skills that make people want to be artists, make people capable artists, which is sort of like emotional sensitivity and an ability to imbue specific things with additional meaning, are also, uh, make, uh, tend to make people, uh, who take rejection harder than most. Because you put a lot of... Y- you imbue that rejection- Mm-hmm with so much significance, and you're very sensitive to all of that kind of... So anything that feels like an attack or anything that, that, that feels like a failure in some capacity is, it's harder to bounce back from perhaps because of the same dispositions that make you a very meaningful, creative person- Yeah in the first place. So in a way, the, the, it's a lot, a lot of thin- people with th- who benefit from their thin skins in regards to their actual artistic pedigree then suffer from them in regards to having to work in the industry and, and whatever, which I, I find is, is both a sort of cruel reality, but there's also something quite pretty about that. Uh, I think- Yeah one thing I've found that's helped me just this year,'cause I'm still super early in this process, like I, I'm, I'm, I'm very reticent to sort of talk as if I, I've sort of figured it all out'cause I definitely haven't. But I find that being on a selection panel of some kind, uh, is something I fou- uh, uh, and giving feedback and teaching is something I've found super, super useful because I've had to reject good things. Like I've had to look at something and say,"I think this, it has a lot of quality or a lot of potential, and I, I think that th- this really should be pursued," and then you have to say no,'cause there's something else you're gonna put on for whatever other reason. Yeah. It might be that it just was the second-best or the third-best. It might also be that it was the best but not pragmatically feasible. Um, but in a rejection email you don't see any of that. Um, but I think- Yeah I found that really helpful sort of learning how the other half lives and thinking i- it isn't that it's all dross and then the one good thing. And I think that's, I found that very sort of helpful to... In the same way that I think as a director it's very helpful to act so you know the other, what the other person's doing. I think if you kind of can place a human in every stage of a process, or every cog in a, in a machine, as it were, it becomes a bit more tolerable somehow. Particularly also- Yeah I've definitely made stupid decisions in the past. I've- If you think about it's, it's people choosing this play, and they, they can be wrong or they can be biased. Yeah. And because of who you are- They can absolutely, yeah you know, you totally, and, and I, I- Yeah hoping to, my, my role I'm w- I've actually, I don't know whether I... I won't give the specifics just because I only got offered it a couple of days ago, so I don't wanna jinx it in case something happens. I, I got a position next year at a place, uh, which is gonna require me to do a lot more, like, feedback than dramaturgical support. And I'm really, really looking forward to that, partly for this, for this reason of, of getting a sense of learning one's own fallibility as it comes to assessing and analyzing work, as well as producing it. Yes. Yeah, I think it's really important. I think it is very valuable to see the other side of it, and how those decisions are made. Because it is, it's subjective, isn't it? And it's personal, and you can't help. You try and read something, every piece as though it's something new, and it's, you know, y- you can't take off, you know, you can't take, separate yourself from your life experiences or your... You can try your very best to look at something on its kind of professional merits. Yeah. But if you're deciding a play to put on, and it depends on who you're sending it to as well, if you're sending it to a producer, for example, who also has to be passionate about the play'cause the, and the project, and feel that it's definitely gonna work, um, it's, it's not, it's just not an objective thing, is it? It's kind of... So rejections, I think you have to just take them for what they are. It is really disappointing, especially when you sometimes, you know, you get a rejection and then you hear of the other people who got the role, or they got the, their play on. But you just have to carry on, I think, really. And I think that, I think that putting yourself in that position of maybe giving feedback, reading other plays as well is really... Even if you're just reading plays in a peer group- Yeah because you're, you're then gonna start to realize that you make comments, or that you maybe dismiss something, or maybe you have a real big reaction to certain plays about certain things. Yeah. And think,"Actually, that's not my cup of tea at all," and you dismiss it straight away. And y- if you can look at yourself critically and think about, you doing that- Yeah you can sort of- sympathise with the people on the other side who are reading it, they're gonna do that as well, and I think that what that does is sort of soften the blow a little bit. But I think what you said there about writers putting themselves in different creative roles as well, I would also really recommend that. I think it can be harder if you're not coming from a background where maybe you're doing a writing course or a drama course. Um, I mean, way back when, when I was doing my master's, it was text and performance studies, so we had directors on the course, we had people who wanted to be actors- Yeah and writers, and we all worked together and had that kind of we could put shows on and we could... or we could take on different roles as we were putting shows on, and things like that. Mm. But I think that if you can, if you do get the chance to, whether that's giving feedback or directing or acting or even getting involved with theater design or even stage management, but to learn the different aspects of theater making is only gonna help your writing, because when you're, when you're trying to put your play on, you'll kind of have a clearer idea of what works and what doesn't work. Yeah, absolutely. And so I, I just totally agree. So that's just'cause- Yeah like to add on to the end of that, but I think that's, um, I think I would just be repeating what you said, really. Um- Yeah. But I, I do, I think that, yeah, I, you, I also learn so much from reading other people's work. Yeah. And that sounds like a, a tired cliche in the sense that I think all writing advice, to a degree, can sort of like even things like, oh, the general and the specific, which is something I believe wholeheartedly. You know, you hear it enough times and you start to... But I, I- Yeah I do really, like I, I, I was doing something with the, the young, young playwrights thing, like the offshoot of, I think it's an offshoot of London Playwrights, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, on Instagram I did, like, a script swap just'cause I thought it'd be fun and spent a sort of day reading a script and doing quite a lot of feedback for it well, after work anyway, and I felt like I noticed, uh, quite a myriad of issues in, in, in my own writing by realizing what didn't, I, I thought maybe didn't work in that particular script and what did work as well. Uh, and in something, I, I think when you're within your own world exclusively, it can be very hard to see the forest for the trees. Uh, but when I read someone else's work, I was like,"Ah, that's where the pacing dips. Why is the pacing not working here? Why is that world-building confusing me?" Sort of trying to sort of reduce specifics into, you know, into the general, into patterns, uh, and it often reduces quite easily, and then suddenly that's applicable to your own work. So I, I found that... S- I, I think it's, it's really not a solitary art form is, is what I'm sort of finding Writing, like it's always better to get it up on its feet. It's always better for other people to read it. It, it, it only It doesn't make you cool and mysterious to sort of keep it- Yeah in the wraps as well. Absolutely. Um- Yeah, it's collaborative always, isn't it? And I think that's the thing, because once you've written on your own for so long, you're always gonna need to put it out there, otherwise, I mean, what are you doing? Why are you writing the play- Yeah if you're gonna at some point hand it over to be performed? So I think to look for those opportunities where you're collaborating, even at the early stages of writing. You know, if you've got a first draft, and you hand that over to someone, and you do a script swap, and they give you some feedback, um- Yeah y- or you do feedback for someone else, y- you're not only y- you're learning more, and you're learning how to collaborate, and actually receiving that feedback from people as well. That's helpful, because you're learning how to take feedback on board, and which bits to take on, which bits to filter through. Because obviously when you take feedback on, you're not gonna You don't have to incorporate everything. It's still up to you as the writer. Mm. So I think, um, I think it's a very useful process. And actually, just to go back to that, just in case people don't know what the Young Person's Playwriting Network is this is a recent initiative set up by Emily White, who was a student on placement with us from Warwick University, and she felt there was a gap with information, um, for young people who are wanting to write plays. And so she was keen to build a community, and she has done that through Instagram. It's supported by London Playwrights, so you can find all the information on our website as well. But there's an Instagram page, and there's a WhatsApp group, which is where I believe the s- the script swapping is being facilitated through, through the WhatsApp group. Um, and we ran a workshop as part of that, was it last week or the week be- a couple of weeks ago, and we'll be doing more events as well, where London Playwrights will be supporting that, so just for people who don't know about it. But that, it's all about just kind of building those communities, and that's what, that's why I co-founded London Playwrights many, many years ago, for that exact reason, so it's really great, I think, for us to do, do that in other ways as well, so. Yeah. A- absolutely. I think it's I remember when I first started sort of taking the writing really seriously, which is sort of after, after lockdown, sort of as I was going to university, starting to really kind of think about maybe trying to m- make it, uh, my, my, my, my work, uh, and life and everything. I remember b- um, the both of my, both of my mum and, mum and dads p- saying,"Oh, you've gotta be very, very careful, you know,'cause people might steal your ideas," or whatever, a sort of like the classic filmic thing. I, I, I'm sure that does happen, like every now and then, but I think it's really not Like, those sorts of reasons we can use to justify not sharing our work, I, I think are, are, are easy to fall into, but I don't know. I think if it You already have an idea to the point where you've written stuff for it, that is your own play. Someone maybe can try and steal it, but they're fundamentally gonna be doing a simulation of what you were doing- and it- you've gotta believe that you can execute it better than they can in, in that regard if they are gonna do that. Also keep people docs notes. And then, then- Yeah timestamp. I just that, that- that comes to mind because particularly a lot of people who aren't, a lot of my friends who aren't sort of in the arts often say that as like a kinda parrot that, that narrative. Yeah. And I, I go,"Well, I- if that's stopping you from workshopping it, if that's stopping you from sharing it in an early stage, I think that's probably not a, a productive quid pro quo is it?" Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, I, I agree with that. I think that that is an argument for not putting your work out there and getting feedback, because you're gonna have to put it out there anyway, you know, if you submit it- Yeah, eventually. Yeah to stop, what's to stop the script reader thinking,"Oh, that's a great idea. Well, I'll steal that"? But I think, I think that it's... I feel it's very unlikely for that reason that you've just said that you would have to... How would you go about copying the idea? How would you go about executing that in the same way? It'd be a different play. You could think,"Actually, I wanna write a play about that as well," but it would be a very different play. We could have the same brief right now, and we wouldn't write a- the same play. Yeah. So I think that is... I, I would say for anybody who's got a bit of a fear of having their w- ideas stolen I think it- there's more benefit to be found in getting feedback and giving feedback than worrying about that. Like you say as well, there's digital evidence that it's your play, so if that did happen, in the rare occurrence that that might happen- Yeah then fair enough, you could obviously, um, you could obviously s- I'm sure prove that it's your play. But I feel like it's a very unlikely thing just because of how long the creative process is and how much input- Yeah, yeah you would have. Abs- absolutely, and it's hard to, it's hard to sort of recreate that in any meaning, meaningfully the same way. All of the sort of various stages of inspiration and, and, and consideration and everything around that. So yeah I, uh, I suppose that's, that's something... Even just with the, to go back to my show that's on, you know, the one, the I- Icons of the Loneliness. Yeah. It, I feel like that's, that benefited so, so much from getting it up on its feet last year, uh, and, and the rewrites that came from that. Uh, and it, it was a bit of a, bit of a cataclysmic production, uh, as it happened, but, uh, but the first night, just because of the sort of circumstances outside of our control, but even there was an illustration of, oh, okay that's represents a specific challenge i- in terms of whether it's technically viable, for instance. Yeah. So yeah, I'm becoming an increasingly passionate proponent of that as a, as a mantra. That's great. Yeah, great. We've had a... I feel like this has been a great conversation with loads of tips for people just starting out. Would you have any tips for writers who are wanting to get their work on, um- At the Fringe, but maybe specifically Camden Fringe, because I think that was, is actually probably quite of, of interest to obviously the London Playwrights community who've probably got- Yeah, yeah plays and want to get them on. Yeah. Uh, well, it, it, it, I, I suppose the biggest thing I would say, uh, as I'm sure people probably have just been able to tell from my age and general demeanor, is that I'm not... I, I'm, I come in with no special sort of advantage or, or qualifications really. I mean, obviously it's n- nice to have the sort of RADA name and the bachelor's and whatever, a- and some, I've had some experience, so I'm not a total novice, but I basically am really. In terms of when I was applying to Camden, I wasn't coming in with, I didn't have an, I don't have an agent or really any experience. I, so it is very accessible. I'm lu- I'm lucky that I was able to get some funding to kind of help me out in that regard from an old company I worked with at university, uh, were able to pay some of the deposit and things. But, like, I suppose my advice, well, firstly, yeah, the biggest thing I would say is that there is really very little barrier to entry at all. Like, because I'm, I'm doing it, i'm, and I know it's really annoying whenever s- if someone says,"I, if I did it, you can too," because often that's really not true at all. But in this specific instance, it is. So I'd say that's the biggest thing, is just go for it particularly if you're based in London. Uh, a- apply as early as you can because slots will go. So it is kind of a first come, first serve basis is the impression I've got. Uh, all of the different theaters will have different layouts and also different pricing points. So if you, if you don't wanna take as much of a financial risk initially, there'll be theaters that I think Barons Court actually doesn't ask for any money up front. Uh, that's in, uh, where is that? Kind of Hammersmith area, West London. Um, a- and I don't wanna speak for Barons Court, but that was my... I remember looking at that and they said it's, like, 50% ticket cut, uh, but zero money up front. Then the Hen and Chickens was some money up front and some ticket cut, but there'll be theaters that are more expensive, but you get to keep all the ticket revenues. Um, and that's, like, a factor to consider as well, is that even if you're not, if you're not confident that you're gonna be able to make the money back, there are still venues that if you've got a script and a team together will, will be, will, you'll be able to work with. Yeah, I, I'd say it's always really good to apply with some kind of a team as well. Yeah. Like, for, for the union run, I've had to sort of really take the lead on a lot of things just because the, all of the team I cultivated were a bunch of people who were available in July, not now. But i- in, in terms of actors, maybe a production manager, that kind of thing, I suppose that'd be the other thing I'd say, that if you come in and you say,"Oh, I've already got all of this sorted, so I know that this show will go ahead-" theatres- Yeah might be more willing to say agree days, because you're coming with something that's a little bit more furnished. Is that okay for advice? Sorry. Yeah. It's important. That's great advice. That, no, that is great advice. And actually, just to say to anyone listening to this who's probably, who's maybe thinking,"Well, that's all good and well, but I've been writing on my own, and I don't know where to find a creative team," I mean, one of the things that I would say is joining things. It's almost a plug for London Playwrights, but we have things like members meetups, we've got a WhatsApp group where people can put a call out for creatives that they might want it. So I'd say look for those opportunities, um, there might be other ways to do that, but, or go to go to your local theater, um- Yeah and you can start doing that now. And that's the importance of building a community, I think. So I think that even if there are writers out there who haven't got a script ready yet, and they're not- Yeah planning to apply to, to do the Fringe yet, start building that community now so that when you do- Yeah you can say,"Actually, there was that actor who I got their number, and I can- Yeah call them." And even if th- they're not suitable, they, they'll have actor friends who they can bring along. So I think building that community, and you can start really small. It can just be coming to a members meetup, going to a writing workshop, going to a the- going to a theater, local writers group, anything. Yeah. But I think that doing that will help,'cause I think it can feel like a leap when you say you've gotta get that creative team together and have them sorted. But I think that just making those small connections and building that up can be really helpful as well. And people who are a sort of similar level to you as well in terms of- Yeah professionalism, that I sort of found that I was looking quite explicitly, perhaps a bit entitled, that I was thinking I want people who are, are serious enough that they wanna do this for their career- Yeah um, but aren't advanced enough that they would, that they necessarily need to be paid, because I'm not getting paid for this. Like, the money's going back to the company that's sponsoring us, so I can't- Yeah promise. And, like, actors for example should be paid for their work by and large. Um, um, like, it's horribly unfair how many actors are, are asked to work for free because people, companies know they can exploit people's desire to get exposure and all of that. Mm-hmm. But that's in, it, that's one in- I think that's one instance. But I found that I was able to get a cast I'm really happy with of people who are at the same level as me. You know, they're trying to, they're trying to make a career out of it, and they're happy to, to act, um, as a part of a collaborative program with you. Yeah. So kind of thinking about that in terms of the team you cultivate. In the same way that I'm acting in a, in a, in a show for Camden Fringe th- and I'm, I'm not, you know, getting paid for that or anything. Yeah. Even though actors, i- if you are putting that labor in, you should be compensated. I know the writer's not getting paid. I know I like the script a lot. I think it's a cool project. So I'm sort of, and we're at the same level that I'm like,"Okay, I, I'm happy to then- Act for free,'cause you're writing for free, and then maybe if we both, you know, fingers crossed, whatever, get to the point where we're getting paid for our work, we'll still be working with each other, and that relationship becomes very valuable if, if one of us gets an opportunity maybe. So thinking about it like that, the... I'm just saying that because when I, I always sort of, uh, option to thinking, oh, this is so unfair that I'm asking people to do this and, and that's true to a degree, but think about how many people there are kind of like you with a similar mindset who are willing to sort of establish these sort of relationships, which makes it sound very network-y. I also wanna say that, uh, that, like, all these people are my friends, you know? Some of them- Yeah some are really good friends. And, um, like it's not sort of... I, I'm always worried when I talk in this tone that it makes it sound like these are, these are sort of, like, you know, gotta make sure you cultivate these professional, like, net- these professional... Which is true, but also they can be just people you like, you know, and get on with. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, I find a lot of my people I'm closest to I, I met through creative stuff, uh, and that, that adds a level of trust. It's not just, it's not just networking. It's not that cynical necessarily. Uh, which I- Yeah feel like I have to say,'cause it sounds so kind of, um, sounds so- purpose-built. I can't quite think how. Yes. Yeah. I think that's it. But y- y- you can say it again. I think it's, um... Yeah, I think that it's the word networking, isn't it? Because I think we have, London Playwrights, we've got a great community of people who've met through London Playwrights, and they swap script, they come to workshops, but they go to each other's events. They help each other out, you know, with feedback and stuff. But it's built organically, and I'm sure that they class each other as friends. Um- Yeah it's not as, it's not as cynical as, oh, y- you'd be a good person to know because you can help me out. And just to say as well off the back of that, it's also, it can feel really difficult to make those connections if you're coming to this when you're older or coming from a different career. We have lots of members at London Playwrights who maybe have had long careers in completely different worlds entirely from playwriting, and they're coming at it now. Um, and I think just to kind of follow on from it not being necessarily cynical networking, you can build up those relationships through the things we've said, writers groups, going to the theater, joining playwriting communities like London Playwrights. Um, because I think it can be when you're younger and perhaps if you're on a course or you've been to university and you're not that long out of it, obviously you've maybe got those people who are at the same level- As you around, and it can feel a bit more daunting perhaps the other side of that. But I think that there are ways to get around that as well. So I'm just trying to make sure that no one's put off, um, by, you know, if you've just started writing now, at whatever stage in life you're at, you can still just build those connections and just make those friends. Just, just making friends who like writing as well, or like putting theater on is, um, i- is gonna help. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Great. Yeah. So tell us, um, before we go, tell us how we can get tickets to your show, and I will make sure that I put a link on the podcast as well. Thank you very much. So the... You can get tickets for both of them already. For the Union, it's just go to the Union Theatre website, click on What's On, and then there'll be tickets available for my show. Uh, and yeah, I, I'd so, so appreciate a- any attendances because you'll be a real part of the collaborative space at that point. The-'cause it's being judged, a full house will be so helpful for getting energy and things. So as an audience member, you'd be so even more valued than normal, which is a lot. But particularly for the 19th of May. And then also, if you wanna give feedback, I'm gonna create an opportunity for that so you can have a, a, a part of the sort of process of developing the script even further. And then if you're not able to make the 19th of May it w- at the Union, then just go onto the Hen and Chickens website, or go onto the Camden Fringe website and look up I Can't Stop the Loneliness, and you'll find that we should hopefully be available there. So yeah that's how to find us. I- I'd love to see anyone in the audience. And yeah, please do come up to me if you've found us through this podcast. Uh, and I'd lo- love to, love to say hi,'cause yeah, that would mean a lot. So thank you. Thank you very much. And, and, and thank you so much for having me on as well, Kimberly. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much. It's been such a great conversation, and, um, I think there's a lot people can take from this, hopefully to help them feel inspired to go and get their, their work on stage as well. So thank you very much for joining me. I really appreciate it. And good luck- Oh, it's my pleasure with both perform- both productions of it. Um, I hope the play goes on to be a real success, and I hope you get a full house on the 19th and in the Camden Fringe as well. Thank you so much again. If you enjoyed listening to this podcast, please consider supporting our work by becoming a member or using our resources. You can head to our website, londonplaywrightsblog.com to find out more. 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