Hollywood Confessional

#PayUpHollywood Fesses Up: An Interview with Liz Hsiao Lan Alper and Alex Rubin

• Ninth Way Media • Season 3 • Episode 3

Share episode

Hello Hollywood Faithful! Today we've got an on the record interview with Liz Hsiao Lan Alper and Alex Rubin of Pay Up Hollywood. 

Pay Up Hollywood began as grassroots movement in 2019, in an attempt to bring attention to the pay inequities, abuses and struggles of many Hollywood assistants. In subsequent years, PayUpHollywood has campaigned for Hollywood studios and companies to pay support staffers a living wage, in an effort to both tear down the paywall that keeps historically underprivileged voices out of the industry and to ensure current support staff can afford to work in their current position. PayUpHollywood aims to provide resources and aid to current entertainment support staffers as well as ongoing data and information about entertainment support staffers to other groups and companies who want to be part of the solution.

You can find more information on their website payuphollywood.com or on their socials, @payuphollywood for X (fka Twitter) and @payup.hollywood on Instagram. 

Connect with us:

Check out some of our favorite shows:


Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production, produced by Meagan Daine and J.R. Zamora-Thal.

Sound Effects and Music provided by Zapsplat and Pixabay.

Keywords: filmmaking podcast, film podcast, screenwriting podcast, entertainment podcast, Hollywood, filmmaking, writerslife, actorslife, setlife

Speaker 1:

In nomine Cinema e TV, espiritu Streaming Amen.

Speaker 2:

Hey, it's been a minute since we've done one of these live interviews, so I should have like thought about what I was going to say before let's dive in. Welcome back to the Hollywood Confessional. We have Liz Shaulon, alper and Alex Rubin today from Pay Up Hollywood. We are so super excited to have you guys on the podcast. This is one of our new sort of formats that we landed on last year during the strike, which is a instead of a forgive me father podcast, this is a bless me father podcast, for I have made Hollywood a happier place, so that's what you guys are here for. Welcome, and thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 3:

I'm sorry I'm laughing so hard. I just keep thinking like bless me, daddy. I don't know, it's not that kind of podcast. Like a hot priest, is just forever imprinted itself in my brain Like no matter what.

Speaker 2:

I just keep thinking my Irish Catholic grandmother would be so happy, right now, jr and I started this podcast this is our third season, so like two and a half years ago now for support staffers, basically because it was like we have been support staffers, we know that there's like so many stories of horrible and funny and crazy things that happened to you that you can't talk about, right? And so we were like, yeah, it'd be really nice if there was a way to like confess these ideas in private.

Speaker 1:

And then JR, with his Catholic background you can take the boy out of the church, but you can't take the church out of the boy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it's a little tongue-in-cheek, but we enjoy it and, again, thank you guys for being here. So we're here to talk about Pay Up Hollywood. That's what we're blessing you for. Thank you for doing this thing. And for people who are not familiar with the organization, could you guys kind of give us an overview of what it is and like who you were and how this thing came about?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so Pay Up Hollywood started off as a grassroots movement among the support staff in Hollywood a few years ago. Basically, there were a lot of support staffers who had been listening to a wonderful podcast hosted by John August and Craig Mazin called Script Notes. Ultimately, what happened was John August had reached out to me me being Liz Alper asking about assistant stories in Hollywood, and this has been an issue I've been extremely passionate about since coming out to Hollywood pretty much, I want to say, 15 years ago now, so 2008, during the last strike. And what it does is it's a grassroots movement that focuses on eradicating the financial barriers as well as shines a light on workplace abuses and different sorts of financial, emotional, mental abuses that assistants and support staff tend to go through, and essentially, it's trying to make sure that this next generation of Hollywood isn't limited to the people who can afford to pay to play and who also have the sort of toxic background that has perpetuated toxicity in Hollywood. The people who tend to thrive in toxic environments are the ones who take enjoyment, the ones who really want to make sure that there are other people to throw under the bus, to make sure that they can always keep themselves in the background, but also in charge. That's, frankly, the sort of industry that we inherited and that's the industry that we're trying to change.

Speaker 3:

The sort of industry that we inherited and that's the industry that we're trying to change. And that sort of change needs to be happening at every single level. But it starts with the foundation, and when the foundation is as rotted as Hollywood's is, when it basically sustains itself on underpaying employees, especially at the first rung of their career, and ensuring that that sort of financial abuse is lumped into this sort of paying your dues attitude that we've come to install in every single person that has come into Hollywood. You have to pay your dues, you have to pay your dues, and paying your dues means taking whatever emotional, financial, mental, physical abuse in the workplace that your employees want to hurl at you. Ultimately, it's a way to rip out the old foundation of Hollywood and make sure that the new foundation ensures both a sustainable career for anyone just starting out, but also a safe and prospering workplace for anyone who is not looking to promote a toxic environment.

Speaker 4:

I'll just say that I was not with Liz at the start of this. I came in at the beginning of this past strike and I came in because of rage. I was so angry that we were clearly barreling towards a WGA and potentially DGA and potentially SAG strike and it meant that any assistant that was connected to these other professions that were going to go on strike could not work, but at the same time there was no safety net for them, and I yelled about it a lot to my showrunner. At the same time, there was no safety net for them and I yelled about it a lot to my showrunner at the time and she said you should meet Liz Alpert.

Speaker 4:

Cheryl is amazing. Yeah, cheryl is amazing.

Speaker 3:

This is like clearly a match made in heaven. Cheryl has listened to me rant about, you know, the different sort of socioeconomic barriers that Hollywood has enacted and basically rebranded itself as we're a meritocracy, without taking into account that a lot of people can't afford to take on even assistant jobs. There are assistants right now who are working second jobs in order to afford that first job, which is as a Hollywood assistant, a set PA, a casting PA, anyone in any department. We keep using the term support staff and we've been looking for a better, all-encompassing term to basically designate who it is that we fight for. It's for those people who are at the first or second rung on their career ladder, whether that's a set PA, whether that's someone in the mailroom, whether that's somebody who works for a consulting company that is based in entertainment and they're the receptionist. They should still be making a living wage.

Speaker 1:

Well, I remember when I was an intern I was not getting paid at all and I had to work construction in the mornings from 6 am to about 2 pm. I'd run to the internship at 3 pm and work until 6 or 7, just to get my hours in to learn. Yeah, it was a pretty crazy schedule. Yeah, but you know, I did it because it was worth it to me, and the sad reality is that I was happy to do it Exactly.

Speaker 3:

And that's, I think, one of the major issues that people on the first couple of rungs of the ladder face, where they know that I should be grateful I got this job and there are 10 other people who want this job. One of my actually my very first scripted position was the writer's assistant on House, which, if you are a millennial I have now talked to Gen Z kids who are like that was my dad's favorite show growing up and it hurts it hurts so much.

Speaker 3:

It hurts, it's so painful, but on that show for me getting that position, I received a pay raise. I suddenly could make my rent for the first time pretty much ever in my assistant life. But let me remind you, this is 2011. And my salary at that point was $750 a week. That is the same salary that many writer's assistants are making to pull in the dual position of script coordinator and writer's assistant, and that is their 750 is their weekly take home pay especially well, specifically if you are on a show where that is insisted on being a non-IOTC show meaning that the writer's assistants and the script coordinators do not make union rates.

Speaker 1:

show meaning that the writer's assistants and the script coordinators do not make union rates. There are non-IATSE shows.

Speaker 3:

I was under the impression that every single show was an IATSE show. At this point, every single show, I believe, is an IATSE show in terms of production, but when it comes to the writing room positions, not every show is an IATSE show.

Speaker 1:

Wow, is that based on the studio?

Speaker 3:

That's based on the studio. I believe it's an enforcement issue as well. For those of you who don't know, I was also a member of the WGA board for a while-IATSE. Writing rooms have been trying to fix, but ultimately it's something that is being worked on, but not every writer's room is covered by IATSE and so not every writer's assistant and script coordinating position is covered by IATSE, which, as you guys know, means you don't get those contributions. You can speak to what you lose out better than I can.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's the difference between healthcare and another off the top of my head, like $500 a week in take-home pay. Yeah, that's nuts, it's insane. Do you know who like the main offenders are? I would one.

Speaker 3:

I strongly urge you guys to reach out to IATSE and especially to your reps. Is it 871?

Speaker 2:

that covers.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I would reach out to your union reps at 871, but also reach out to your board members. I know there are several writer, assistant script coordinator, board members who have been trying to fix this issue and, quite frankly, it's one that everybody should know about. The more that people are aware that this is happening, the more power you have behind you, because the more people you have saying absolutely not, we are not going to let this happen. This needs to be fixed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's honestly shocking. I'm completely shocked right now. I did not know that this was going on.

Speaker 3:

Oh, there are many. I think I just worked on my second show. That was not covered.

Speaker 2:

So to take it back a little bit, alex, you mentioned a little bit about where you were coming from when you joined, but, liz, could you talk a little bit about where you were at in your life Right after?

Speaker 3:

I won my first election to be on the WGA board. Hashtag pay a Hollywood came into being and for me, I had just come off of a very public election where I had gathered a lot of goodwill and was very aware that I had gathered a lot of goodwill and goodwill expires. The fact was I had gotten elected because prior to the election, I had been focusing on different election. We were pro-action, and so that became kind of a lightning rod of polarizing opinions. It was a really, really hard time to be in leadership for the WGA because we had a very divided membership and we had actually just gone through that election losing a lot of friends. Like I had friends who did not speak to me. Oh wow, I did not want to speak to them either. Ultimately, I knew that this was goodwill that was going to go away.

Speaker 3:

And so if there was one thing I was going to be able to do, now was the time when John came to me asking about this assistant thing. The one thing I kind of realized I could do was offer a bit of a shield for anyone who wants to share their stories, and so what I did was tell assistants if you want to share your story, throw me under the bus, do whatever you need to do, Say that Liz Alper was the one that made me share this and just use this hashtag, because this is going to be the only way that someone reading one story can find all of the stories that are being shared, and that's exactly what happened.

Speaker 3:

Twitter became overrun with different stories about financial abuse anywhere from assistants having to pay lunch overages for writer's room out of their pockets Yep, lunch overages for writer's room out of their pockets to set PAs who had been forced to work, you know, many, many, many hours of overtime and then had their overtime struck by line producers because, quote unquote, it wasn't approved. And so, all over the place, we were getting all these awful stories about what it was actually like being at the bottom rung in Hollywood and how unsustainable it was becoming, and it became very, very clear that if we were going to continue the way that we were paying assistance less and less and less each year, we were going to lose out on the truly creative voices that could make the next generation of Hollywood leaders, simply because they either couldn't afford to pay to stay in the industry or they couldn't pay the emotional, mental, physical well-being tax.

Speaker 3:

They didn't want to be in an industry that meant they were constantly bullied and made to feel small and just abused every day. There is no job in the world that is worth that, and the only people who think that there are are the ones who enjoy being the kind of, you know, doling out the kind of abuse that we see every day in Hollywood. So ultimately, for me it it became a thing knowing that if I'm going to do one more thing with with this attention that I have, let it be this, and so that's where it kind of took off, started gaining momentum.

Speaker 2:

That's incredible, are you? Um? Were you surprised by how it took off? Was what were you expecting when you started?

Speaker 3:

I was not expecting where we are today, that's for damn sure. I think what I didn't expect was how many people didn't know what was happening or how many people you saw waking up. I very much am someone who had bought the if you are tough enough to be here, you'd be here. I bought that hook line and sinker. I cannot tell you, especially as an assistant, how many drinks I went to. Where we were just sharing battle stories, where the person who went through the most abusive situation won and that was supposed to be. You know, that's a badge of honor, you know you won the war stories.

Speaker 3:

As opposed to saying, my God, we would make any therapist fucking cry right now with trying to one up each other on how much abuse we can stomach and how much we can take. And especially, I think there's the cyclical nature of abuse. I was definitely someone that would really expect other assistants to be able to tolerate the sort of abuse that I had been put through, and if they couldn't, to me that was oh well, you can't make it, they weren't tough enough, they weren't cut out for this industry. As opposed to me saying like, maybe the ability to take on a whole lot of abuse isn't a good thing. Maybe that's really really bad. Maybe that should be the red flag that this entire boat is taking on water and it's going to sink if we don't fix it now. And so you could see, with all of the stories being shared, the way that people's minds were starting to shift and starting to realize that we have glorified the abusive nature of the assistant and the support staff position, and we should never have been glorifying it in the first place.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you are absolutely speaking our language right now. It's so funny because we've just recently done a confession. While you were talking about like, oh, the person with the most abusive story wins, like in my head I was like, yeah, they win season three premiere of the Hollywood confessional Right. But yeah, talking about how abusers thrive and how this has become an industry, just like you said, that thrives on that very abuse, because it is cyclical and it is perpetuated by people who have been abused and I. It's so fascinating to me to talk to you guys now in person, because I was just, let's see, was I an assistant, I think by the time you guys started? Well, by the time you started listen, it started taking off. I had just maybe gotten staffed for the first time, but I had a lot of that residual trauma and so I was kind of like, yeah, well, they can't take it, fuck them.

Speaker 4:

And all of that stuff.

Speaker 2:

And then, similarly, it took me seeing these stories over and over again and then finally being like, oh, this, this actually is bad. This is something that's wrong with me now that I have like ingested this poison. So thank you for um, for everything that you guys have done in the interim and for persisting with it and for seeing it yourself and um. And then I'm interested, like at the point at which you started to realize this was going on, um, in you and in the community, like how did that affect your approach? And then what did you decide to do next?

Speaker 3:

Um well, I'll, I'll let Alex speak to her experience as well, but I went to therapy.

Speaker 3:

I took on a lot of therapy. I went to a lot of therapy because I kind of realized and I recognized that there were two paths in front of me I could continue to. Already is a cycle of abuse, and so it was easier for me to recognize that I had fallen into that pattern because it was a pattern I was already well aware of. So for me, weirdly enough, you know, having an abusive childhood was a blessing in this scenario. But it really came down to understanding that I am wrong, like I am the wronged person in this scenario. But it really came down to understanding that I am wrong. I am the wronged person in this party. I am doing harm by continuing the patterns that assistants before me had perpetuated. If I want to be the person that I like to think I am, that means actually doing the work to become that person, and so it was a lot of therapy.

Speaker 3:

It was a lot of really examining my own biases, having to be very brutally honest with myself and also realizing that when we were getting stories from people being as sensitive as humanly possible, under no circumstances was there ever going to be a time where someone would come to pay up Hollywood, share a story and be told. Well, I think maybe you're not looking at it in the correct way, maybe you might be wrong. No matter what, this is someone who has suffered a trauma that has impacted their life and has harmed them in a significant way. They deserve grace. They did not deserve me sitting there judging them, and so it became the number one priority of mine is making sure that this was like a no judgment zone, a no shame zone, like under no circumstances was anyone to be shamed for anything that they felt, because we all knew what it was like to be abused and be traumatized and not be believed. So for me, that was. It was just a lot of work, undoing the brainwashing that we had essentially gone through. It was deprogramming.

Speaker 1:

Was there any one event that made you think, oh, it's time for me to go to therapy? Or was it just the buildup of hearing all these stories and sort of understanding how writers were perpetuating it in those days?

Speaker 3:

I think it really was. I was going to therapy for something else already and when I started getting more and more stories, I'm trying to remember that there was one story in particular and it was because it resonated so strongly with me. It was a young woman who shared that accounting had forced her to pay the lunch overages for her room out of her pocket and I was so horrified by that that I went to a private WGA forum that's only WGA members and posted the link to this story and what happened was an entire barrage of comments basically saying this is incorrect. She has got to have her story wrong. This is illegal. Studios would never do this. Essentially, just comment after comment trying to change this assistant's narrative and experience to fit what they believed was reality.

Speaker 3:

And it took another female writer, terry Kopp, who is phenomenal and incredible and I cannot recommend everyone finding her and befriending her enough. She went to her assistant at the time in the room and said I read that this happened to another assistant. Has this ever happened to you? And her assistant went yeah, it just happened when I bought you guys coffee. I don't get reimbursed when I buy the room coffee. It was something like that. Terry came in and went. I just asked my assistant about this. This is happening to her. If Terry had not shared that story, no one would have believed it. It genuinely was something that was getting buried in people who are higher up the food chain trying to explain it away. And that was the moment for me that I kind of went what the hell have I done that has perpetuated this so that this minimization, this sweeping under the rug, this excusing of frankly illegal actions is happening everywhere and people refuse to see it? And that for me, to answer your question, that was kind of the pin drop moment.

Speaker 1:

And that for me to answer your question, that was kind of the pin drop moment. That's an infuriating situation and I mean it's so strange. It's making me think I had an extremely similar thing happen to me, but I was just fortunate enough to have a showrunner that cared. Yeah, the studio was asking for money back on a purchase that I made and, lucky enough, he just handed me a $100 bill and he said I hope this covers it.

Speaker 3:

To that point said I hope, no, no, All of you are wrong and you need to be listening to facts. And the fact is this is happening and we need to fix it Because of that. That was a little bit of a deprogramming shift that we saw in writers.

Speaker 3:

That sort of ripple effect is that you know that situation that you described. That was the ripple effect of all of the writers and every showrunner suddenly becoming aware of what this toxic practice was. Suddenly, they were shutting it down whenever they had the chance to so small things like that. Where it's this is something that is happening and we need to change it. We can change it, but getting it to be believed was the hardest part, and I think right now we are at the point where people believe it. People just don't know what to do, and I understand that because it's a little bit of a it's a puzzle right now. Like this, we're going to see people becoming more and more aware of the issues that are really packaged in these positions and they're going to try and do what they can to fix it, but it's just it's going to take a long, long time. You know this is very thoroughly rotted foundation that we're talking about.

Speaker 4:

And I think it's something that is going to get worse before it gets better. We are now so I am my last job was as an assistant. I've been on two shows. I have done the trifecta script coordinator, writer that the WGA and SAG have gotten these contracts and that's great.

Speaker 4:

We are incredibly excited because obviously, especially if you're support staff in a writer's room, the WGA is the goal you want to become a writer, so that's why so many of us, without being WGA members, came out to the picket lines and supported. But the repercussions of that for support staff is we were already being put in positions where we were getting these double roles. In my first show, I was both the showrunner's assistant and the script coordinator and I was paid for one job, and that is going to get worse and they're going to use the fact that they have to pay writers more as the reason that it's getting worse and while we have to cut back somewhere. And so I think that people really need to be vigilant in their rooms and make sure that their support staff and also elsewhere, of course, but I can mostly speak to the room but make sure that their support staff are not bearing the burden of the fact that the WGA and SAG have made these huge strides, because it is an excuse.

Speaker 2:

That's right and thank you. Thank you for bringing that up and I think you know our listeners sort of are across all positions, all departments. I think it's something for everyone to keep in mind in every department, all departments. I think it's something for everyone to keep in mind in every department. You know, we talked a lot during the strike about how, what the trickle down effect, so to speak, was going to be, and what you guys are putting your finger on is that, when in doubt, the studios will make the lowest paid people, the most vulnerable people, pay the price and the overages in some way or other. What do you guys think, I mean from your position now, like and and what pay up Hollywood has come to be? How do we, how do we work against?

Speaker 3:

that it's interesting. I think one thing that really needs to happen is for the workers of Hollywood to realize we have a lot more in common than we do, keeping us apart, One thing that we had learned a few years ago, pre-pandemic, when Pay Up Hollywood had approached Women in Film, which is an incredible organization, cannot recommend them highly enough. When we approached Women in Film to give them the numbers that we had found during our first data gathering, basically what we said was you know, assistants are living on less than $60,000 a year, and at that time, the cost of living in Los Angeles was around $60,000 a year. Shocking, it is somehow raised to $70,000 a year. Just so we're clear. That is the minimum cost of living in Los Angeles. Yes, 70K.

Speaker 3:

When we told women in film, we believe that assistants need to be making 60K a year in order to stay afloat, and this is what a living wage looked like. What we were told is okay, some of us are coordinators, some of us are managers and we don't make 60K a year. Oh, wow. So essentially, what we have seen is what many, many years of lowering the ceiling and lowering the floor looks like. So if you have an executive that costs a half a million a year. Get rid of that executive, promote a junior executive to 20 to a quarter of a million a year. Save yourself a quarter of a million and let that person think they have a ceiling to build up to and you're going to have an employee that thinks they're on should be a profitable or well-paying track, and really what it is is because they started at a lower floor than their predecessor. They were never going to be on a track that made as much as that person because they were already put in a place to be a cost-saving measure to these studios.

Speaker 3:

Megan, you brought it up. The studios will always take advantage of the lowest paid position until that position is essentially cannibalized to the point that no longer needs to exist. And then they go and they focus on who was on the second to next lowest position. So if you are a coordinator right now, if you are a manager and you think you're safe because you're a little further up the ladder, you're not, Because the studio's goals are to eradicate the lowest level positions. And then you become the lowest level and you become the one that suddenly is taken advantage of. The lowest level and you become the one that suddenly is taken advantage of, whose floor is lower to the point that your ceiling is now just making the cost of living in Los Angeles, and they really are using the dream economy to keep employees from requesting higher raises, higher wages.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you have a lot of insider knowledge because of your position in leadership and because you guys have been running this organization for a while, so you have been in the trenches. I'm wondering how could our listeners look into this for themselves and see where does this show up as evidence that this is what's actually happening in the industry?

Speaker 4:

So Liz mentioned the surveys that have been done, so we do have those up on our website. You can see the cold hard facts of exactly what's going on. The latest survey that we have right now is 2021. We'll be looking into doing a new one, but those numbers kind of hold true and have, we presume, gotten even worse. So that's where you can go to see those cold hard facts.

Speaker 4:

And then also, if you are a member of a union as a support staffer so if you are a member of 871, there are forums that you can go into that are just for you and you can talk to other people and you can see what is going on and how people people go on there all the time and they say this is what's happening to me, how do I handle this? There are also I'm sure most of you know that there are Facebook groups for assistance and, again, that's a place where you can go in. You can post anonymously, say this is what's happening to me, what do I do? And you can reach out to us with an email and say this is the situation that I'm in and we can direct you to resources. We've been able to direct people to legal resources as well as resources to help them financially or to help them in their career. There's not enough out there. I will be totally honest, but we are trying to push forward everything that we possibly can and there are resources to be had first rung.

Speaker 3:

So we want to make sure that anyone who is doing the work out there for example, during the strike, we met an incredible organization called Go For PAs, which is run by a couple of ADs who have taken on a momentous task of trying to help PAs, set PAs specifically all over the country and basically started their own nonprofit. They have been doing the Lord's work in that capacity. But we want to make sure that those organizations aren't going underutilized and unsung, because they're doing incredible work that deserves to be heard about, that deserves to be supported, While, additionally, we want to make sure that the people who need those resources know that they exist. For us, we're just kind of hoping to be a little bit of a connector, a little bit of a matchmaker if you will.

Speaker 3:

As Alex said, we're going to be trying to venture back into data this year. Unfortunately, because of the past couple of strikes, it's been very hard to quantify the data that is out there, because it is depressing, and when you come off of year four of guess what wages were lower this year than they ever were for the fourth straight year in a row you start to wonder what else can be done, because at that point you are just shouting the news into a black hole, and so things that we've been talking about shouting the news into a black hole, and so things that we've been talking about small changes that people can do are data sharing, data share on your own. That can be anything from sharing what your deal looks like. If you were an assistant, you just came from, for example, sony, you were making $800 a week. Someone reaches out to you and says can I ask you how much you made? Share with them.

Speaker 3:

That sort of thing is going to empower everybody in that area of the workforce and you guys will be able to rise the tide and lift all ships. That is something that, as a writer, I try and do, especially any women, any other writers of color who are asking can I see your deal and make sure that I'm not getting screwed? I will happily send it to them, and that is something that some of my friends and I have actually made a point to do, because we've realized that when we are all aware of how much each other is making, we can all ensure that we make the top dollar, because we can point to preexisting examples and say this is what you need to be doing.

Speaker 4:

And I want to double down on that, because sharing information has such a negative connotation to it. In our industry it's labeled as gossip. You're not meant to be talking about that. It's rude. There are all of these words dressed over it to make you feel as if you need to stay silent when we have the most power, when we have the most information. And it's not illegal, no matter what they might make you think.

Speaker 3:

Do you know Amy Aniobe? No, she's amazing, she's phenomenal, she's a writer, and she told me once, gossip is a word that men invented to keep women from sharing information and, incredibly, we got a confession about this very subject.

Speaker 1:

Somebody saw some pay stubs and found out that they weren't being paid what the other people were being paid, oh yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that is not the first story I've heard. My mentor for the WGA told us how she was the number two on a very, very well-known ABC show, like pretty much in like the Desperate Housewives, like echelon sort of era, like Ugly Betty, those sorts of like big time comedies with name recognition, and she was the number two. Found out won't say how that she was making the least amount of money on staff.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God.

Speaker 3:

Least amount of money on staff. She was furious. I mean like I think I don't remember the end of that story, but she had also been on this show for several years. It wasn't like this was her first year. She was a senior member and so to be making the least amount on the show for her was just. You know, for her that was the number one reason. She was like share, share your information, share what is going on. You can fix this for your friends and your fellow writers.

Speaker 2:

That's unbelievable, but very believable at the same time. So, uh, so, sharing information, that is a great tip. Other, and the fact that you guys are becoming a hub for information, I think, is super, super important. This is another thing that I heard or participated in a lot of conversations about during the strike is how, how do we create a community of like-minded people who want the as our tagline for this podcast is to make Hollywood a happier place. So how do we create this community? And I think it's great that you guys are doing that. For the record, what is your website address?

Speaker 3:

Yes, it is wwwpayuphollywoodcom.

Speaker 2:

Awesome. And also you mentioned, Alex, that people could send you guys an email.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and it's payuphollywood at gmailcom.

Speaker 2:

We're keeping it simple as we can, we made it really easy, you guys.

Speaker 4:

Nice, I love it.

Speaker 3:

And we're on.

Speaker 4:

Instagram.

Speaker 3:

Which is also payuphollywood.

Speaker 4:

What was Twitter and is now X. I would ask everybody that is above the first and second rung to please, please, please, consider being mentors to people that are coming up behind you. Mentorship is incredibly important. Mentorship is the reason that I got the two jobs that I have in rooms, and we have a little bit of a broken chain of mentorship in this industry, where most of the people that are super successful are white men and, of course, people want to mentor those that they recognize a bit of themselves in. So please diversify your mentorship and please look for people whose voices are not being heard and help them to move forward and give them advice and be a champion for them. To move forward and give them advice and be a champion for them. I again, I have had opportunities in my time in this industry that I only got because I had champions behind me.

Speaker 3:

If you are someone who is like me, who's like people scare me. Talking for long periods of time scares me. If you feel like mentorship is something you would love to do and people are something that terrifies the ever-living daylights out of you, there are definitely other ways to give back as well, because I think there are definitely podcasts. There's Cole Haddon, who is a wonderful writer, is doing a bunch of series asking established writers different questions that they would have loved to have known the answer to when they were support staff, and so something like that. That where Cole is going, how do I give back to this community in a way that I know I can Stuff, like that? What is it that you can give back? You guys can't see. I'm like motioning with my arms to give back.

Speaker 4:

It's so dynamic. You guys are really missing out.

Speaker 3:

It's really underscoring my entire point here. It's something where, if you have a skill or if there is something that you can do to give back to empower people who are on the first or second rung of their career ladder, do that. If you are someone who can mentor, please do that. Alex is absolutely right. There's an entire generation of support staff who could use mentors, and whether that's in a writer's room, on set, in a casting office, in hair and makeup, whatever it is, those mentors need to be there. But I also think one thing for people to keep in mind is that there are support staffers in every single department in Hollywood, not just the writer's room, not just on the director's path, on the DP path. There are people who are just starting out who could use your help. So who is it in your world that is just starting out that you know you could help directly?

Speaker 4:

You can also donate money. Donate money, yes, actually, if it's not for you.

Speaker 3:

We should have said that you should absolutely give money. No, that is something I mean. Like Alex did point out, we are a nonprofit and therefore we are donation-based. If you would like to help us continue the work that we are doing, you can make a total tax-deductible donation, which is great, on our website. That is going to help us basically expand. Make sure that we can keep advocating for assistance like we do. There are other places that you should absolutely be donating. Alex is looking at me like she's so ready.

Speaker 4:

Entertainment Community Fund Go for PAs is also still an amazing place to put your money at WIF because they are championing women, identifying creators and, as we know, a lot of people are a lot of women and women identifying people are trying to come up and they are facing a lot of resistance.

Speaker 3:

We can't recommend those organizations more to anybody who is looking for a place to start, and we really hope that in the future, whenever we do podcasts like this, we'll actually be showing up within higher laundry list of organizations that could be helpful, and if there are any that we missed, chew us out. Send us an email tell us we didn't mention you.

Speaker 2:

We apologize.

Speaker 4:

We'll put you on our website we like.

Speaker 3:

we really want to make sure that people who may not have gotten the opportunities that Alex and I had when we came out here, especially in what is becoming a more and more digital industry, are. We want to make sure that those people aren't forgotten about, and so anything that we aren't aware of we want to know about. So it's not just what we can do for you, what can you do for us as well. Listeners just saying.

Speaker 4:

And if you're still wondering, if you're like none of those options work for me, email us and we'll find a way.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I've got one last question for y'all. I think this podcast was definitely born out of a deep love of storytelling, of making movies, of making TV, and we want to make this industry a better place because we want to live in it and because it's what we love to do, and I have a feeling it's similar for y'all. So, what about the industry? Makes you excited or hopeful?

Speaker 4:

makes you excited or hopeful. The thing that makes me hopeful are the people that I have found in this industry. I was in theater before I came out here which, by the way, is all the stuff that we talked about but you don't get paid and I had so much community there and when I came out here I was terrified that I would not find that again. And I have had the opportunity to meet people that I truly feel are working to make this a better place in whatever way that they can. I have had two incredible showrunners, dara Resnick and Cheryl J Anderson, who have been advocates for me and mentors to me, and I have been privileged to meet the other people in their orbit, and all of these people are really significantly trying to make the industry a better place for everyone in it, and it does start with just a few people that want that, and I know that it feels so. David and Goliath, I know that you look up at the WB water tower and go like how could I possibly go up against this?

Speaker 3:

Why is Ryan Gosling still up there?

Speaker 4:

But the fact of the matter is that this isn't a sense of revolution, and every single revolution starts with just a few people saying I'm tired of this. I was so good. Thank you. I'm a writer. I don't know who you are.

Speaker 3:

Oh my God, you should be a writer, if you weren't on, I think for me it's seeing the difference of when I to continue that cycle anymore, who are waking up and acknowledging that, yes, what we have been part of is a cycle of abuse.

Speaker 3:

We have perpetuated as well as taken the abuse. We're both victims and perpetrators, and I think what we're going to be seeing in the next 20 years is going to be a significant change from how it was when we first started out. I'm very hopeful that when I'm in my 50s, I'll be reading about Hollywood and, even if the issues are still there, there will be people who are speaking out about them, as opposed to whispering about the issues behind closed doors and being scared that, if they even speak to the toxicity of the industry, that they'll be blacklisted. And I'm not saying that there isn't still retribution, that people are still not scared to speak out. That is still absolutely happening. But it says something that we can loudly proclaim this industry as having toxic roots and toxic foundations and not have to worry that any of us will be blacklisted.

Speaker 2:

Amen. Thank you both, so so much for this. This has been great to have you on the podcast, liz, and Alex, and for everything you've been doing. Speaking to your point about not having to whisper about things in darkness, we were talking with Alex before you got here about one of the things that we want to do is, while we are, you know, being anonymous about victims and abuses and perpetrators and all those things, to be able to name names of the good guys, right, and so you guys have named several names in this, in this interview, and we really appreciate that. Just want to give you a chance to say if there's anybody else or any other organization that pops into your head that should be on the list of people who are making Hollywood a happier place. Who would that be?

Speaker 3:

Joelle Garfinkel. Oh hell, yes, oh, my God, I love that woman so much. I think Joelle is phenomenal. And Joelle is someone whose generosity just found the right outlet this time. She's always been this wonderful. She's always been this generous. The fact that she started Green Envelopes if you know her like, you're not surprised whatsoever.

Speaker 4:

I want to mention Megan and Claire from the Blacklist. They are.

Speaker 3:

I got tongue-tied thinking about it, because they're so great, we're so in awe of them.

Speaker 4:

They're such incredible women and they are, uh franklin's right hands and they are very boots on the ground and they are the ones that, when they have these blacklist uh labs, they are the ones with the writers propping them up, keeping them going, and they stay in touch. I'm having breakfast with them this week, yeah the other.

Speaker 3:

One other organization I want to shout out is TIE Think Tank for Inclusion Equity. They are our siblings under the Women in Film banner and they are an organization that has been doing the hard work on behalf of women and writers of color. Specifically, they are led by women identifying and writers of color and they are honestly. They've done so much data on what the issues that a lot of writers from underserved groups are facing and they've been. They've put out fact sheets, they've made sure that they've had panels. They've done so much to try and strengthen the community. Like just giving them a shout out because they are also doing the very, very difficult work.

Speaker 4:

We should shout out our team.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 4:

Yep Quincy Cho, who I came on during the strike and has very much become like our right hand. She's incredible, yeah.

Speaker 3:

All of our volunteers for Pay Up Hollywood and, honestly, I really got to give a couple of shout outs to some of the very big donors that we had.

Speaker 3:

Like you know, alexi Hawley Cheryl was a huge donor to us David Shore, who was a massive donor during the pandemic. A lot of writers who really dug deep into their pockets to try and make sure that support staff. Mike Royce is one that I really have to shout out. We love Mike Royce and Tanya Siracho, who is also someone who has been very focused on making sure that support staff is trained and treated respectfully.

Speaker 4:

Dara Resnick who did an entire fundraiser for her birthday and raised over $7,000 for us.

Speaker 3:

Oh, wow, yeah. So a lot of these folks who do it because it's the right thing to do and who don't go out and brag about this because they don't want the praise. They just want to make sure that the next generation of Hollywood execs and directors and writers are as diverse and as great storytellers as we want them to be.

Speaker 1:

Just again. Thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing everything you guys have been working towards, everything you've done for the industry, for support staff specifically, and for naming the names of the good guys.

Speaker 3:

That's incredible.

Speaker 1:

We love the good guys. They're around. So just again, your website is payuphollywoodcom, correct.

Speaker 3:

Instagram it is payuphollywood, because someone tried to scam us into purchasing the Pay Up Hollywood handle. On Twitter, it is just at payuphollywood, and those are the best ways to keep in touch with us and what PayUpHollywood is doing. If you want to get involved, send us an email at PayUpHollywood, at gmailcom.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Thank you Thank you guys Go create in peace everybody.

Speaker 1:

The Hollywood Confessional is produced by Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal. Joelle Garfinkel is our co-producer and AJ Thal is our post-production coordinator and editor. Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production. Follow us on socials at FessUpHollywood of Hollywood.