Hollywood Confessional

Burn It Down: Investigating Hollywood's Power Dynamics with Maureen Ryan

• Ninth Way Media • Season 3 • Episode 7

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“The only thing that works to take down abusers is Mo Ryan writes something about them."

If we weren’t already on fire to talk with the author of Burn It Down: Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood, this quote from a confessor would have set us aflame. This week we get our chance, as entertainment journalist Maureen “Mo” Ryan steps into the confessional booth.

Mo is a Contributing Editor at Vanity Fair, and has written for Entertainment Weekly, the New York Times, EW, Salon, GQ, and Vulture.  She has spent much of the last decade writing in-depth pieces on matters of inclusion, misconduct and abuse in Hollywood -- and on efforts to make the industry better.

Join us for an eye-opening conversation as Mo unpacks the complex web of power dynamics in Hollywood, the need for a safe and empowering space for marginalized voices to be heard, and what makes her hopeful for the future of the entertainment industry.

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Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production, produced by Meagan Daine and J.R. Zamora-Thal.

Sound Effects and Music provided by Zapsplat and Pixabay.

Keywords: filmmaking podcast, film podcast, screenwriting podcast, entertainment podcast, Hollywood, filmmaking, writerslife, actorslife, setlife

Speaker 1:

In nomine Cinema e TV Espiritu Streaming Amen. Hello Hollywood, faithful, we are back with another amazing episode of the Hollywood Confessional and on this episode we've got a very, very special guest.

Speaker 2:

That's right. First of all, special guest JR De. We've got a very, very special guest, that's right. First of all, special guest JR DeMorathal, who forgot to introduce himself. Yeah, you're the guy, and I'm Megan Dane. And this week we have critic and journalist Maureen Ryan, also known as Mo. She has an incredible resume. She was a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, she's written for Entertainment Weekly, New York Times, EW, Salon, GQ the list goes on and on and on. And she is also the author of Burn it Down, Power, Complicity and A Call for Change in Hollywood, which is a subject very near to our hearts here on the Hollywood Confessional. So welcome, Mo, and thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having me. I love being introduced. I feel like I wish my whole life was being introduced, because I sound fancy. I'm not just understand that, I'm just like you. I am looking down to see if my t shirt is clean. It is. Yeah, I love the whole concept of your podcast Because, you know, that's a weird gray area that I'm in all the time where people are like, should I do x or y, or what should I do?

Speaker 3:

What can I do? It's there's, there's not really easy answers to any of it and you know, I think continuing to just at least have a forum to talk about these difficult things, you know, or just it's confusing, like anyone in any job is often confused about what to do about a situation with, you know, a problematic situation. But I think in this industry is, you know, it's the whole reason I wrote my book is that, you know, it's just that the disincentives are huge and those have not really gone away. Like we wouldn't be having this conversation and you wouldn't have this podcast if it was like well, we fixed it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, right, yeah, that's right. We, we definitely want to get into that and we were very excited about the concept of your book when it came out, because we're like, oh, this is the thing, but oh my God, like their name and names and like the victim's names and the perpetrator's names, and so what is the cost of people coming forward, like on our podcast? Our whole thing was we're coming from a background of being support staffers, being like the low people on the totem pole and like you cannot say certain things. Oh, god, no, no.

Speaker 2:

You will never work in this town again, right? So we wanted to create this anonymous forum, but then by doing so we have to, kind of by default, not name names of the perpetrators, and sometimes that's very frustrating and we wish we could say who did something. But what is the cost, do you think, for people who do come forward?

Speaker 3:

That's a really interesting question.

Speaker 3:

I really honestly, I think a lot of the cost is paid kind of ahead of time, like on the prepaid plan. You know, and you know a lot of people come to me and I'm essentially, I think now maybe to some degree, a resource for people in many walks of life, but especially in the industry. You know, when someone's enduring something that they shouldn't be enduring, whatever that is, and it's a pattern and they like whatever attempts they've made to address the situation, if they've made any, and sometimes, as you say, they can't Quite often there's a process of like asking around, like close friends, you know family, like whoever you can, and so a lot of the time on the journey I'm one of those people. That, or a reporter, is one of those people and I honestly think weirdly enough, I mean, part of the reason I'm so excited about being on your podcast and the concept of your podcast is what I've done. You're only seeing the top of the glacier. A lot of what I've done is out of sight and I'm okay with that, but I essentially I do want people to feel, you know, information can be power and I think that a lot of times, especially for support staff, for crew, like, just for anyone and I'm talking to people at the upper levels or established people for anyone this can be a difficult process to navigate, but especially for the people with the least power, it's incredibly fraught. So I think people do pay a cost, and that is in this question of before you even start that process of asking around or talking to people, there's the cost of is this all in my head? And then there's the slow, drip, drip, of sort of like the slow and steady attack on your self-esteem because you think, and the industry is training you to think a lot of people, because you think and the industry is training you to think a lot of people. I can't cut it. It's me, I'm the problem.

Speaker 3:

Again, a huge, huge reason I've done the work that I've done and written the book that I wrote is because I want to sit here and tell you, as someone who's been around this industry for more than 30 years, no one's perfect.

Speaker 3:

Yes, in certain situations maybe you are the problem or you have made a mistake. That's a given but a lot of the time, what I'm witnessing and what I'm hearing about is someone being made to feel that they cannot trust their own senses, their own mind, their own emotions, their own reaction, and that, you know, bugs me quite a bit, as you can imagine. I do think that that's changing in the sense of the following I do think that, again, that early stage of should I talk to anyone? Am I at fault here? What is going on? Am I wrong? Who can I talk to to? I do think and you can tell me if you disagree that stage I hope for some people is less torturous, because I do think that there's a sense that it's a difficult, brutal industry on a good day I mean the highs are high, don't?

Speaker 3:

I mean you guys, you know, you've been in the trenches, you get it. The highs are high, don't I mean you guys? You know, you've been in the trenches, you get it. The highs are high. The parts that make it worth it make it worth it, but the lows and the dangers are very extreme and very, very difficult to navigate. So I do think you know this cost that we're talking about.

Speaker 3:

I hope that all of us together as a group whether that's friends, other support staff, other senior people with good intentions and good actions and good histories, reporters I think that hopefully we have made it less difficult to start that process of what should I do about this? And you know, as I said many times in my book, I do think we're still at the early stages even with that. So, but the cost you know. I think probably the ultimate question that may be embedded in what you asked is am I going to destroy my career if I try to do something about X? Am I going to wreck my future?

Speaker 3:

I am not overly prone to optimism, but I honestly think that that doesn't have to be the case necessarily anymore, something I you know I didn't say it in my book flat out, but I'm really proud of this. The very first story I did posed me to the first big workplace misconduct story I did. I had 19 sources and none of them blew up their career because none of them used their names. This has been a very big part of my career, a very big focus that honestly again, I'm glad to have this opportunity Within my reporting process. I certainly don't want to tell other reporters how to do their jobs. There's a lot of people doing really good work for super duper, huge amounts of money.

Speaker 5:

Journalism.

Speaker 3:

Don't do it kids. So I have made it a priority in my career to give people autonomy within the process of talking to me and I kind of like, over the years, developed kind of a pitch and my pitch is in the maybe in the first 10 conversations, but certainly in the first five conversations, the first three or first one. We're off the record. We're talking one human being to the other. You can ask me what you need to ask me. I will ask you what I think I need to ask you. If you decide, after this conversation, the information I got and where I'm at mentally and physically with my life and professionally, I don't want to move forward. I'm glad we met. I wish you the best. Everything in the vault gets locked away and never spoken of again.

Speaker 3:

I've had a million conversations like that. So I give people autonomy within the process to decide what's right for them. And, man, if you want to make me, if you want to see me go zero to 60,. Really furious is when anyone pressures someone to use their name in this industry. I want to punch their lights out. I want to punch their lights out a lot, and I don't cause I'm like a Buddhist their lights out a lot and I don't because I'm like a buddhist stupid, but I'm like. There's nothing in this world that makes me more angry than pressuring a person without power to do something for the reporter's career, not for that person's. Yep, if you think oh, mo's had a this, you know certain kind of track record as a reporter. That track record is because I treat human beings like human beings and again, I'm not the only one to do this. I didn't invent that.

Speaker 3:

But, having been in these trenches of just reporting on the industry for again over 30 years, there are people who do it to get to know famous people, to pretend they're friends with famous people. Ps, you're not. It's an exchange of. You do a story on me and my show and then, even if we have a great time please don't get into this to take selfies with famous people. I'm begging you. If you're wanting to be a reporter, ps, why would you so? My philosophy is it's not about taking someone down. I have a very holistic and personal to me set of criteria before I even do a story, and that a lot of that revolves around for the people concerned, how does this move the situation forward for them? How does this move the situation forward for them and what am I doing as a reporter? That is new. I mean, I've reported on in my career issues to do with caregiving. Hollywood does not care about people who have caregiving responsibilities at all.

Speaker 3:

I've reported on issues to do with people with disabilities and accommodations. Does Hollywood truly, really and truly care about consistently making accommodations for those who live with disabilities? No, when I talk to people, it has to be about how will this be a thing that I can do legally and journalistically, and my own brain survives the process Sometimes that's a little bit iffy survives the process. Sometimes that's a little bit iffy. How can we do a thing that moves the situation forward and highlight something that needs to be highlighted? So the cost that we're talking about is I do have people come to me and go. Will I wreck my career if I come and talk about this person?

Speaker 3:

I will tell you there is a very wealthy news anchor and someone came to me and said this happened, this is the situation, and we talked a few times. This person thought that they had documentation of what they experienced. It turns out they did not, because it was quite some time ago, and I said I'll be honest with you. If you're the only person making this allegation against this very famous anchor who works for a very powerful network, I think you will regret it. Wow.

Speaker 3:

And honestly, as a reporter, I wasn't sure that I had the goods either, because, like a lot of what I have to do too in those early conversations is figure out, can I even pitch this to an editor Once I pitch it to the editor, if it's a hot potato story, then they have to pitch it to legal and by the way.

Speaker 3:

I've had stuff pitched to legal and they say yeah, I mean I think we can probably do it. And then, like three months later, they're like oh, you know, maybe not. And I'm like oh no, you told me to do it.

Speaker 3:

So it's a very challenging procedure, and none of that procedure, for me, can proceed unless the person on the other end of the phone or the Zoom or whatever it is, you're in a safe place.

Speaker 3:

If you tell me stuff, and then, a week later, you're like I'm having a panic attack, I don't want to go forward, I don't want to come forward, I'm going to do this other stuff over here, what I say to people is I wish you all the best, let me know if I can help. Here's the thing. I don't want to put any of us through that if it's not going to be like a thing that helps. So the flip side of everything I just said, though, is oh dude, if you had told me in 2017 that I was going to speak the following sentence, I would have been like no wrong. This is inaccurate, but many, many people have found a positive way forward from having come forward, and that is not to say because, honestly, everyone in the industry is sitting on a story where they could go to the, that they could get a press release.

Speaker 3:

That is not at all to say, you know, like I'm a survivor, like I think that that's a huge part of like kind of where my head is at. It's like you, if you've survived something bad and damaging on any in any way, you figure out for you and your life, life what's the way forward. If I'm part of that, maybe that's a good thing for you. If it's no longer the ideal thing for you, then go over there and do that thing, do this, do that, do the other. I mean I'm actually really again this is so weird I'm having a very strange experience of speaking optimistically about this industry. That was unexpected, but I cannot tell you how gratifying it has been to talk to people who felt that a burden had been lifted and none of us really thought that. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't. Like I'll just say, for example, in my book there's a chapter on the TV show lost cult show. Very few people know about it. You should look it up sometime. I mean there's a few fans. Honestly, you know, when I talk to sources, you know you're seeing, okay, like there's six quotes from this person, some people I was talking to for like four years before I began working on that chapter in earnest and really I'm proud of the book for a lot of reasons, but I'm proud of the fact that it's the culmination of. I think my approach to talking to people made a number of people feel safe enough to talk to me about those things and sometimes using their names. I walked up to Harold Perrineau, sometimes using their names. I walked up to Harold Perrineau so we had done all this work, he and I had been talking and the book came out and talked many times before it came out. I didn't actually meet him in person until the ATX festival, four days before my book came out. Oh my God, three days after the last chapter was online and my life was just like a massive explosion. And so I walked up to him and I, you know, tried to keep my cool together. But you know, once you guys get to know me, you'll understand that I don't have any cool at all. I kind of was like, why did you trust me? Like I still to this day, I look at the people and I look at the track record that I have and I'm like a lot of people took a leap of faith, a lot, but I'm here to tell you that for some people, when they made the decision to come forward as a group. That's a huge part of my answer to your question. I'm still answering your first question, but you know, like, okay, the cost that is paid? Yes, there is a cost. There's a cost and worry Most I've ever talked to.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes, even when I don't use somebody name, somebody's name, I'm very skilled at making sure I don't leave any enough identifying information. I mean, the thing is, some every so often I'll say, well, you were the only afro-latina woman on that staff, so I think they're gonna figure it out right. Like you know, that person will be like it's fine. Like you know, whatever. Like they determine the level to which they're identifiable and a lot of times they don't want identifying information, you know. But no, I mean a lot of people took leaps of faith, but I think you know, whether we're talking about the last chapter or other big stories I've done they were taking that leap of faith together and behind the scenes a story where I thought I would have six horses, suddenly I have 22 because they all talk.

Speaker 3:

I mean, there are many times that people talk behind the scenes about what to do about something and the first step is to realize that I'm telling you you're not alone. You know, even if, let's say, in a particular production, you're the only assistant that seems to be getting singled out by this person, that person has singled people out before, on a different movie or on a different set or whatever. So, like, the first thing that people need to understand is that they're not alone. And a lot of times people ask how many other people are going to use their names and I tell them.

Speaker 3:

I don't say who it is, but, like, my feeling about reporting on this industry is that there is so much uncertainty and fear. I don't want to be an undue source of those things. I will be as transparent as I can be. You know, mo Ryan's Pulitzer is when Lucas Till called me and said I've reached my breaking point, I have to do something, and like five different people told me to talk to you. That, to me, was one of the nicest things I've ever heard, which is you know how the industry is, everyone talks. Yep everyone's.

Speaker 3:

You know, like everyone, there's six degrees of separation of, like you know, and I don't know what, like I don't know a ton of people in animation. I don't know necessarily know a ton of people in indie film, but like you know what I mean, like there's enough crossover that people talk. And if you know what I say to other reporters sometimes not that I need to tell most of them this, but like don't be a jerk. I mean because don't be a jerk, like just don't do that. That seems. But also everything I've gotten is when people come to me.

Speaker 3:

If you think I'm out there on Ventura Boulevard with a sign going like tell me your trauma, I'm not Like I should do that Honestly. That would be very upsetting. It would be enlightening.

Speaker 3:

Like basically, I would never be able to move from that spot. Nothing is certain in my game or in yours. There are ways that we can protect ourselves, and one of the biggest ways is through group actions. There was a story I did once where a bunch of showrunners you know, during the pandemic, I don't have to tell you they were trying to cut assistant pay trying to basically oh cool, well, the pandemic's happening.

Speaker 3:

That seems bad. What would be a good response to that is to save a few pennies by screwing over the people who make the least money. Let's do that.

Speaker 3:

I'm like, yeah, the year that David Zaslav's making a quarter billion, for sure, do it, let's do it. Make that person who's barely making men's meat have to be in their cover. I love it, let's do it. A bunch of showrunners for one studio banded together and wrote a letter to the studio and we're basically like, well, we're either going to, you know, basically in a preliminary way, so we're either going to send this letter to you or we're going to send it to Mo Ryan. Which do you prefer? Guess what?

Speaker 2:

Oh my God, that's amazing.

Speaker 3:

One of those cuts in hours didn't happen, and so I remember talking to one of the showrunners who was kind of behind that effort. He's like I didn't. He kind of didn't realize that they had that power, and I think that that's something that I think and again, I'd love to get your take on this.

Speaker 3:

The industry would love for everyone to think that they're powerless, right, they would love it if everyone was just like oh no, we're all going to be homeless this fall, so we shouldn't be striking. No, people aren't powerless. They would love you to think that, though. They would love everyone to think that they're isolated. There's no solidarity, there's no camaraderie, there's no altruism, there's no group effort that will work. You're isolated and you should just take whatever crumbs you get. And if you can't deal with the brutal aspects of the industry, you're the problem. And I think there's been a lot of people just on a number of fronts, whether it's, you know, labor actions, going to reporters, going to studios, but it just, it, always it just. It wowed me that that here's an established showrunner, somebody who's been in the game a long time, kind of not realizing I'm like. And I said to him I'm like you can do this again, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think, like I love so much of what you're saying and it really speaks to a lot of the um, the stories that we're getting Um, and the fact that people don't realize their power and what a difference it can make to take that it's like, if you're going to, this is not the right metaphor, but if you're going to shoot, you got to shoot to kill type of thing, Right?

Speaker 3:

So you have headshots only terrible. I literally have phrased in my work I'm like ma'am, we don't have a kill shot yet, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3:

Times when I've been on the phone with people and I'm like literally in my mind going okay, now I have three kill shots, I'm good.

Speaker 2:

I would love to play one of the clips for an upcoming episode that we have in which you, in fact, were named, but in a good way, because it speaks to this very topic.

Speaker 3:

Hey, we have bless me episodes, okay, so it's not just forgive me, a lot of people whenever I meet them in person, I'm like do take a selfie with me, print that out, put it on the wall of your office. Oh, lovely People know that. You know this. Everyone will see this podcast. We are close friends, we hang out all the time and if anything bad happens to you, Thank you because we have definitely needed it ourselves and we know many people who also do.

Speaker 2:

Let's share an example. This is a story of a group of people who came together to report on someone, and then nothing happened.

Speaker 5:

So we went through the whole thing. I told the journalist the story. I told you guys about throwing my friend's shoe for his dog and the journalist said I don't get it. And I said what don't you get? And she was like I don't get what he did. That was bad and what that says about him.

Speaker 5:

And my heart just sank. If you don't understand the essential nature of a narcissistic abuser, I don't know that you should be writing these stories, because for me that shows that my friend wasn't a person, that my friend's property didn't matter, that he could do this in front of people and no one would say anything. I mean, for me it says a lot about Bleep and what he was showing. In that moment I got really fucking worried. But he just kept pushing forward to do the story. Then they talked to people he'd been racist to. They talked to all these different people. They talked to people he'd been racist to. They talked to all these different people. Then B***h found out it was happening because the journalists reached out to him for comment and he started posting on his Instagram about how he's not been the best guy in the past. But now he meditates. You know what I mean.

Speaker 5:

And then the article came out and nobody gave a shit. It just wasn't a well-written piece and I guess the star of his show believed him and he didn't lose his job. Well-written piece and I guess the star of his show believed him and he didn't lose his job. So now this man is still running. This fucking sex pest, is in charge of all these stories that get told on his massively popular network. And not only that, but he's getting paid a shit ton of money because the reporter didn't know what she had. You know what I mean. Like she just didn't understand.

Speaker 2:

Would love to hear your thoughts on that clip.

Speaker 3:

So that but that's a story did come out. Is that what I heard? A?

Speaker 2:

story did come out and why I say you were named in this story and they. We asked the confessor if it was okay to say this to you and they said it was so is that they said it didn't go to Mo Ryan, it went to somebody else. They said it didn't go to Mo Ryan, it went to somebody else. And this was the result that the story came out and nothing happened to the perpetrator.

Speaker 3:

Well, here's the thing. There have been stories Mo Ryan has done and nothing happened. I do feel flattered. I do. I do. This is a complicated one. You know I've had to have conversations with people on my side of the fence. You know editors, or you know people I'm working with to help them understand what abusive narcissism looks like. I mean, it sounds overall like that person didn't feel with, respected or heard in the process. This is really difficult work and when I say I try to respect my sources, I also respect them enough to tell them the truth, and that has led to some tense moments. I've had stories where someone says oh, I understand you have such and so documentation, can you send that to me? I can't why? Because I have to every single minute of every story I'm doing. Think about how that looks in a court of law a year from now. Wow.

Speaker 3:

Does it look like I was helping you too much? That I was. You know what I mean? Like I've many times had to wonder is this a sock puppet account approaching me? Who's recording me? Who's on the other end of this call? I mean, because I don't know these people either. Do you know what I mean? I do think, though, that one of the things that you get in a performative industry full of storytellers and, by the way, I'm not using either of those things as necessarily as like slurs you know what I mean or as like negative phrases, but a lot of people, including me, did not understand all of the different ways in which abusive behaviors can be masked or cloaked in something that seems okay or even good.

Speaker 3:

I've had a difficult past and I've had a difficult life and I've had a difficult everything. A lot of clinical narcissists, a lot of abusive personality types. They themselves do not believe that that's what they're doing and they're storytellers If they're being paid to tell stories. A lot of people, regardless of their level of self-awareness, are very good at managing upward. You guys know this. If the studio is an overall deal with someone, an established player who's had a hit in the past, all of the incentives are toward oh, this dude got a raw deal in the press. Oh, this was overblown.

Speaker 3:

All of that being said, the biggest context I want to give on the reporting. Part of this is that, in a time when my industry is collapsing and on fire and in a very bad state, many, many people I know, including myself, took on a brand new full-time job on top of everything else going on in our lives, to do this work, and to do it ethically. Everyone's made mistakes, but to do it ethically and to do it while knowing that we could be sued, our careers could also be over. Do you know what I mean? So it's very difficult to do all of that. So that's the overall context I want to set in people's minds. That being said, some people are just really insensitive and I don't want more people in this world to go through abuse or damaging behavior or exploitative, narcissistic you know whatever you want to call the behavior, the patterns of damage towards other people. Vindictiveness is huge in the industry, as you know. I think some people haven't experienced it.

Speaker 3:

And it's fundamental, like I often think, if I wasn't a survivor, would I have done my work the way that I did it? I don't. I'm not glad I went through that. I mean it's not like hooray, but it made me understand just how vulnerable people are. Just to take that step of calling or emailing a reporter. People are terrified. They're taking a leap in the dark.

Speaker 3:

They don't know you, they don't know me, and so I respect that, like I respect the fear. I let them know the things that I can let them know. But if I don't give people respect and agency within the process, I've had people say two months into a story I don't want to participate anymore. I'm like, okay, because this is a big thing about how I approach this stuff. If pulling one source out of a story causes the house of cards to collapse, then I don't know that. You really had a story there. And there have been stories, I'll tell you this too.

Speaker 3:

I didn't take them because I did enough poking around that I thought. I do believe that this person, that this was their experience, but I do think that there's much more going on here that is much more nuanced. Sometimes I think people have used this process of like someone getting called out in the press to take down one of their rivals and that's an unfortunate thing that I've seen a few times where, like someone got fired for something that I don't think was good For me. It was on the borderline. One thing I say a lot to people is look, what I'm not going to do is do a massive story about one person's one bad day. Yep.

Speaker 2:

That is a really great rule of thumb. We've had somewhat similar situations come our way on the podcast and I am stealing that.

Speaker 3:

Like I'm not going to weaponize somebody's bad, worst day, and so that's one of the. I've mentioned this before. But you know I have a whole host of criteria that I'm looking for. What I'm looking for, and one of them is is this a situation where I'm weaponizing one person's really bad day? And honestly, if I'm honest, I I'm at the point now where I think the reason I wrote about Lost, the reason I wrote about Sleepy Hollow, the reason I've written about the things I've written about, is because they are symptoms of systemic problems I no longer want to do. Person X over here did the bad things. I mean like how many? There will always be a need for those stories. I don't know that I'm the right person to do them anymore, because they are very taxing and I would much rather talk about. Oh okay, so the studio knew that. Right.

Speaker 3:

The studio. I cannot tell you the number of times where it's like what are the odds this person turned out to be? There have been times when I just do, basically I hear about somebody who has a bat, you know like something's going wrong with this production and what I then do is like call around to my industry contacts and be like hey. And they're all like, oh yeah, that not good. I'm like, oh okay, so the studio did absolutely none of this, vetting that. I'm now like it's taken me two hours to find out that this person's reputation is horrific. It's not as sexy, it doesn't lend itself to the headline. But especially in the book, a lot of my chapter about Lost or about Sleepy Hollow was like what were the people controlling the levers of power doing about this?

Speaker 2:

This is such a fascinating subject to get into. There's a story that I always tell which is so fascinating, just like from an objective perspective. It happened right after Me Too. I was an assistant on a show. I had dealt with a lot of sexual harassment in various forms throughout my life. And I'm an assistant on a show and an EP walks up to me. I have never spoken to this man, we have no relationship. He walks up to me in the middle of the room while I'm taking notes and starts rubbing my shoulders.

Speaker 2:

No, and I was like what the fuck? And nobody's there too.

Speaker 3:

I mean, first of all, it's bad if it's just you, but it's bad Like okay, that's so fucking creepy, because I hear about this kind of shit all the fucking time, and when they do it in front of a bunch of other people, it's a power.

Speaker 2:

No, I think, I think, I actually have the power now, so I waited until after the room was over and I got him one-on-one and I told him we're going to adopt a strict no touch policy, you and I. And the look on his face all of a sudden he was terrified. It clicked for for him and he totally understood that the power was on my side and if he ever fucking touched me again he was going to go down. And he was like understood, and he never did anything like that again.

Speaker 3:

So that's actually like. Here's the thing. I think about this a lot. I heard about an incident in which a man had his laptop open before the room like everyone's like kind of assembling, like the showrunner wasn't there this dude is at angling, or no, it was. It was um, you know, a tablet. He's purposely angling his tablet so that his female co-worker can see a bunch of dick pics oh my god we know what that is right, yeah, man right what no.

Speaker 3:

Like all the no's Plus an additional Costco serving of no's what the fuck, dude? And so this was someone I thought about writing about, like in the early. Like you know, that early time of Me Too was like a lot, of, a lot of shit was going down. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

So I talked to this person that it happened to a few times. I think a lot of people even have trouble like naming something for what it is because the industry gaslights people into like but like. So I like I said to her at one point like, did you feel okay going to your showrunner? She's like yes, I would. And I actually know that the showrunner dude and he seems like a good dude. And to me a big question always is would you have felt comfortable going to a superior with power, whether it's the showrunner, an exec, whoever is that person someone you could have gone to? Because this is something I tell people who do end up in showrunner positions all the time how can I get people to understand that they can trust me? But I'm like you have to just show it how do you?

Speaker 3:

react when the lunch order is wrong how do you? Pushing back on a show idea. How do you like you will do 500 things in a week that everyone's watching? The only way people know that they can trust you is by watching how you operate, and I'm sorry if you can't take the scrutiny. Maybe showrunners not for you or maybe powerful person's not for you. So she's like, yeah, I could have. What she actually did was I think she's oh, she said it in the room.

Speaker 3:

She's like, hey, everybody this person is purposely on his tablet showing me inappropriate material whoa, that is explosive baller yeah, I would have been like because it's so like I hate how much it puts it on the individual to be like what do I do? But, as you know, that's the reality of it, unfortunately, like you are put in an unwinnable position a lot of times. So she says that and he's like oh, there's an accident, what's it away? It never happens again, nothing.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, I love it.

Speaker 3:

I'm not going to weaponize somebody's worst day, unless that worst day or bad day is part of the pattern. If it is, you know you have to give people the opportunity to understand, and I it's. I don't. I don't think that what that showrunner did or that what that ep did to you was right. It was not right, it never was right, but I think this it's so. Part of what makes it so hard is this industry put forward the idea that boundaries are wrong and anti-art and anti-creativity, which is something that psychopaths put forward. I mean the industry sort of functions as like the lead sociopath. You know what I mean. So I think it being a human being means looking back at some of your past behavior and having like an absolute shockwave or go through your like oh God, did I say that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, this, this whole conversation. It brings up a big question that I've been meaning to ask you being a journalist, through me to, through pay up Hollywood, through Time's Up, through all these different movements. Where do you sort of see the next movement coming from? Through Me Too, through Pay Up Hollywood, through Time's Up, through all these different movements no-transcript and really just not being crushed by the machine.

Speaker 3:

You know like basically consciousness around exploitation as the business model. Do you know what I mean? I mean first of all.

Speaker 3:

The first part of my answer is having been around for decades, literally, I have seen progress in every single area not happen, be long overdue when it starts to happen and then stop and then go backward. So I do not think that we are anywhere near we need to be in terms of equity, when you know when many, many studies that we could all cite are talking about, like the number of women of color directors of studio films has remained constant. You know there was a study that came out a year or two ago where many, I think by USC Annenberg, you know many indicators in the film space, whatever gains they had made in the wake of supposed reckonings on race and gender, they went backward again. So, like Hollywood, gains are very hard fought. I think there's a couple, there's a few consciousnesses that have been raised, and one of them is amongst the people who have at least some power. There is a consciousness that these gains are hard fought and sometimes don't even happen in a real way. You know on a real level, know on a real level. So I think, I think amongst people who are, you know, running shows now, who are you know eps or creators or directors, with you know sort of experience and maybe, again, I always feel conscious of the fact, like people I know and who are still willing to talk to me, I'm like I'm over sampling for the people who care. If you haven't threatened me with your through your lawyers, then you know. Like you know I'm, there's a self-selecting group that I talk to, but I do think that there's a consciousness that not only are these gains over the past hundred years of Hollywood hard to achieve and then hard to hold on to, but I think that there's just a larger understanding around the idea that the machinery is set up to take everything back from the people who make it and now it's set up to like not give them anything on. You know, up front even.

Speaker 3:

You know it's interesting to, it's interesting to watch the mentality of the average working professional in the industry. You know, in New York, la, even in London, toronto, wherever you want to call it, vancouver, I think that they've been labor-pilled to, I actually think, a heartening extent. You know, the thing that the industry has accomplished at a few points in its history is sharing the spoils a little bit more fairly. To be clear, mostly for white people, mostly for straight people, fully for cisgender people and abled bodied people usually. But what?

Speaker 3:

What happened to achieve a sort of stasis, you know, especially during the time that I of television that I love, that love that I very much, am very glad to have written about is certain people, under certain conditions, got to share in the wealth a little more that achieving a level of non-precarity at work, achieving a level of financial security, achieving the ability to have a future and be a caregiver, pay for caregiving, pay for a life that is illusory, and what really really brought it home for me was, even before the strike, even before the pandemic.

Speaker 3:

You know people that I know, people whose names you know we know we're like, yeah, I have to sell my house and move. The number of people I've met in the industry who could retire, who could stop working tomorrow and have a full and nice, comfortable life until the day they die at age 80. I've never known that many people in that category. But I think, thank God, among the public there's a greater awareness that that's not really a thing Like yes, there's a small 1% that you know. I don't want Margot Robbie to stop working.

Speaker 3:

But like if Margot Robbie went or you know, if Meryl Streep wanted to take five years between jobs, she could, but like that's a very, very small number of people, I think that there's just a larger consciousness around the structure, of how much exploitation is baked into all these structures and how much action and solidarity, frankly, is required to fight it.

Speaker 3:

It always makes me extremely nervous to talk about the state of Hollywoodllywood change because I've just seen it rolled back so many times and not because people were like, yay, I want to undo the gains we've made. It's more that the machine is set up to undo them and I just, and then it's set up to amongst the people who get into that 1% of independently wealthy people. It's also set up to reinforce their priors. This is why I said in my book the people that I reserve judgment for are the people who have the power to change anything.

Speaker 2:

You know, you made the comment that an individual can change, and we're talking about like a person-to-person interaction. An individual can be empowered and an individual can also have an opportunity to change. Now we're talking about collective action and the power that people can have through collective action, and then that kind of almost gets us to the point like systemic toxicity and like the people at the very top or the system, um, the the system and the way that it's built on the inside. But do you think that in the way that an individual can change, do you think that the system can change, or do you? Are you still very much like burn it down, start over?

Speaker 3:

I do think. I do think the system can change I do, actually but we have to keep in mind that when I say that it can change for the worse, I mean ask actors how they feel about self-tapes being the only thing like you know what I?

Speaker 3:

mean we have to keep in mind that the system can change. And I think a lot about the carrot and the stick and I've been, you know. I feel like there's like the cling on pain stick, like like that's one of these. I feel like I have to use that myself personally more than I would like. But, but the two things, if we're going to talk about positive change, you know, for the money or for the individual we have to talk about is, you know, I feel like I kind of have a like a shtick. I should make it like a YouTube video or something. Here's the thing, the two things.

Speaker 3:

We can sit here all day and talk about toxicity in terms of norms, in terms of individual people, in terms of standards, in terms of institutional and systemic abuse, toxicity and biases, but the two things that always work. What absolutely humbles me and floors me in a good way is that people are very often wanting relief for themselves, but even more so they want to help others. So that's the big first thing. And then the second thing is a lot of people in Hollywood don't want to be good. They want to seem good. You can use that. You can use that. What they hate is bad PR.

Speaker 3:

That's my bad pop single. It's coming out. It's dropping on Tuesday. You heard it here first.

Speaker 3:

I've been, I've been in a trade, I've been at fancy pants vanity fair. I've been at you know urban newspaper. I've been like, I've been out in general and I can tell you the one unifying thing is this and this is what's crazy, but you can use it Cheat code from Maureen Ryan, my next book. The cheat code is they care about publicly seeming good and getting validation, and this is what's crazy to me. It took me so long to figure this out Because someone will be sitting across the table from me like they're not feigning it, because they're not that good of an actor, because they're a writer and writers are usually not good at it.

Speaker 3:

They care what I think and I'm like why does this person care what I think? They're worth like $50 million? And I'm like why does this person care what I think? They're worth like $50 million? And I'm like some jackass, like I'm pretty okay, right, or jackass, but I'm like why does anyone care what I think? No one cares, but that's the thing that never goes away. Why do people stay in the game when they are independently wealthy, when they do have a shelf of awards. Why? Why do they do it? They want validation, and I don't think that's bad. To be clear, I want validation too. When my book was on the new york times bestseller list, I cried a whole freaking bunch.

Speaker 3:

I was really oh it's nice to be validated. Yeah, this is my position on award shows. Everyone should get up, should be able to get up, you know, get fancy dressed up and drink somebody else's booze and get an award, because you know what it's like when you're working on a project. You're working 12 to 14 hour days. You're not like, well, this is for sure going to get an Emmy. You're like I just want to get paid and, like you know, have a decent time. But then when it does get an Emmy, it's like nice bonus. So validation is okay, but you can use it. You can use it. The one thing that the companies and the studios that I deal with time and again, the unifying thing throughout 30 years of industry change is they hate looking bad?

Speaker 3:

People in the industry. The more power they get, the more they fear looking bad. They don't care about being bad, but if you can hit them with the bad PR pain stick, or threaten to hit them with the bad PR pain stick, that does change the industry. It does. Let's just take my book, which, by the way, coming out in paperback in June, if you prefer a paperback format.

Speaker 2:

Oh man, I do prefer paperback, thank you.

Speaker 3:

The thing I think about a lot and I can go into the bad spirals.

Speaker 3:

I have so many bad spirals like this whole wall right here is just like which bad spiral no one of the bad spirals is, you know, if you're like, oh wow, mo talked about some situations in the past that were real bad.

Speaker 3:

Some of them aren't in the past, by the way, but a lot of the people who were standing around and silently endorsing what was going on while doing a Homer Simpson into the bushes and not getting sort of tagged with it, they're still in the industry and they're more powerful than they were then. So here's my thing. I hope that my book made some people real scared about what I might drop, about them going forward, and it's possible that in my career as a reporter making a very general statement about no one in particular that there are some people who, through my legal reps, at some point in my career not recently for sure, as far as you know know my legal reps have had to say ps, not everything that mo ryan knows about you went, went into this work that she did oh yeah love that you'd like to open up a process of discovery, bring it, motherfucker.

Speaker 3:

You know I think I think I've said a lot now for six, seven years is a lot of people have my phone number. You know, a lot of people know how to hit me up on signal. You should wonder if they've hit me up about not you personally, but like I have a sort of like hypothetical you. You know, there's a lot of performative bullshit and then there's a lot of people who make it about them and their tears. I don't, you know, that's what your therapist is for. I don't care about your tears.

Speaker 3:

Yeah therapist is, for I don't care about your tears. Yeah, a lot of people get a lot of chances that, as you know, um are not doled out equally across the industry. I do believe in second chances. I do believe in evolution and change and calling in instead of calling out. You know speaking. I said before oh god, I get really nervous when we talk about change. I get really nervous when we talk about change. I also get really nervous when we talk about how do we allow for change and evolution?

Speaker 3:

Narcissistic, sociopathic or in some other way, an abusive personality type, manipulate the goodness and the authenticity and the hopefulness and optimism and help of good people. That is something that I think is particularly endemic in this industry, and I can tell you for a fact there are any number of abusive personalities who 100 don don't believe that's what they are, and the industry has gaslit everyone else into going along with what you know. Oh, but he needs this or she's no, no, no, no. And I think, hopefully, that that's changing too in terms of like. Where is change at?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the gaslighting thing is really. It's interesting. Our first episode of the season just dropped today actually and gaslighting was a major part of that confessor's experience, and so we've been talking a lot about it lately. Collective action, people gaining a little bit more clarity about the industry and how it has historically functioned, how it has historically abused and exploited laborers. It feels like that makes gaslighting more and more difficult as time goes on, because there's just been too much light shed on what's actually going on, and I think that's a great thing.

Speaker 3:

I totally agree and I think that we have much further to go. Frankly, I do Because one of the things that scares the shit out of me is the following, and I've seen it up close, and I've seen it up close recently in a way that's deeply terrifying there are some people who will never, ever admit, let alone change, admit their behavior and their whole way of being in the world is dangerous and and and not good. There are some like the thing is it's an industry of storytellers. What does the industry do when someone says, you know, preaches to the skies morning, noon and night, that they are innocent, that they're good, that they have a story for why this is this way? They have a very elaborate story for why these people are complaining this, that and the other. There are some people who are incapable, for whatever reason, of change. There are some people who, for whatever reason and we, at a certain point, you don't need to give a shit about the reason are going to continue to harm or exploit or in some way damage people.

Speaker 3:

And the industry's guardrails for that shit are basically still non-existent as far as I'm concerned, except for going to the press, people at the top have to be forced to listen to the accounts of someone other than that person. That person has spun so much bullshit and so many people bought it for so long that they feel embarrassed to be publicly kind of outed as this person's enabler. Here's the thing. I don't care Again. Go to therapy, go to a bar, do what you're going to do, and I think that that is a change. Think that that is a change that I do think that the smartest people near the top or at the top reaches of Hollywood. There is no going back to people just suffering in silence on mass anymore. I do think that, quietly, there are people who haven't worked a lot the last few years. Good.

Speaker 1:

I think this is an amazing place to wrap up. We've taken so much of your time already. You've been so generous with us.

Speaker 3:

This is all such stuff so near and dear to my heart. So I'm honored to be able to talk.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. I've got one last question on my part and I'm sure you have other questions as well, but one thing we do on our podcast is we try to shout out the people that are doing good, and we've definitely heard your name before people have shouted you out.

Speaker 3:

Oh me, oh God, I thought you want me to name.

Speaker 1:

No, we would love to know who you'd love to shout out. Who have you seen doing good in this industry?

Speaker 3:

Melinda Hsu. Knowing her has been a huge, enormous privilege. She's now the training that I talked about in my book. She's sort of taking it on the road and she's pitching it to studios of like. Here's how we can all arrive at norms and feel heard and also be a cost-effective and productive and efficient workplace. You know, and it's a two-day training, I got to sit in on it via Zoom. She's doing incredible stuff.

Speaker 3:

You know, javi Grigio-Marxwatch if the dude did nothing else putting out the 11 Lodge of Showrunning, which I find very helpful, just as a person in the world working with other human beings in the world I mean Harold Perrineau, monica O Subrene I could cry sitting here right now when I think about I'm getting a little teary. There's so many people who in my reporting processes we would talk about being scared you know what I mean Like we off the record when we were just like done with the interview, like what do you think is going to happen? Many people have asked me do you think I'm going to get sued? And so one thing I can do is say if this comes out in a piece or a book that I'm working on, please understand, I've talked to lawyers about this and never say never about anything, because some people are just batshit crazy and terrible and have a lot of money for lawyers. But you know, if anyone's going to take the the heat, it's going to be whoever's publishing this, and me so.

Speaker 3:

But a lot of people have risked a lot. A lot of people have risked so much. Orlando jones, there are so many people, god, I just, I know I'm going to think of people, but but you know there are people who are putting systematic reforms and actions on the table. And I'll close with something you know we started out just today talking about change, right, hopefully he's cool with it because he and I have talked about it many times. But Javi Grigio-Marxwatch, you know there was that episode of the 100 where a queer character died and you know, for any number of reasons, that became a huge flashpoint.

Speaker 3:

I was sort of very much on the front lines of the social media and in DMs with people and actually like counseling people in a weird way, like I'm not a counselor, but like talking people through their pain and the community, the crisis the community was going through, the queer community especially, and there were people you know at risk because our world is not kind to queer people, especially queer youth and um. But what Javi modeled in that moment hopefully you all can absorb this because I think you still can't. In that moment he listened and listened and he said I'm hearing you, I'm listening to you. He would retweet the opposite of what this industry tells people to model. You modeled humility and and he didn't have an answer. Like his name was on that script but he didn't. He wasn't telling people what to feel.

Speaker 3:

There was a few couple years later. There was devoted to um, lgbtqia people on tv and you know actors and you know members of the community who, like, all wanted to have like a con around, kind of like queer tv. Javi at one point rolled up to the bar at that con. He was invited to that con and he was scared. He's like what do you think's gonna happen? I'm like I think a lot of people are going to buy you drinks.

Speaker 3:

So imagine what is required when a community is really understandably angry about something, and then you become an even more beloved part of that community, despite your role in a situation that was incredibly difficult. That is how it can work, and so I will never lose hope. I want to lose hope Sometimes. I want to be like nihilism. It's great, but I can't, because I have so many examples I can look at where people changed the paradigm Individuals did, or people as groups did. It's possible. And I'm Mo Ryan. Vote for me for president. I felt at the end I was like am I pitching something here? I'm not good at endings.

Speaker 2:

We say amen. We thank you so much for this, Mo. This has been an amazing interview, and the way that we typically end our episodes is to say go create in peace.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much and you guys are great, thank you. Typically, end our episodes is to say go create in peace. Thank you so much and you guys are great, thank you. And I do believe that, like it's so heartening just to talk to you because you, you're man, you know your generation is not going to fucking take it, and I love it, and I love it. So go forth and fuck it up Burn it down.

Speaker 1:

The Hollywood Confessional is produced by Megan Dane and Jair Zamora-Thal. Joelle Garfinkel is our co-producer and AJ Thal is our post-production coordinator and editor. Special effects provided by ZapSplat and Pixabay. Hollywood Confessional is a Ninth Way Media production. Follow us on socials at FessUpHollywood.